>man builds car >other man needs car >1st man gives

>>13600636
Only Black_Knight is really that deluded.

>>13600636

I don't even like Zeon and I think that's a shitty analogy.

> Man builds fleet of cars
> Finds bunch of people and forces them to take cars as their new and only cars
> New owners ask if they can modify cars to look nicer or run better etc
> No, only I get to decide what's done with these cars and you can't complain because you got them for free
> That's fucked up man, we own and drive them we should have some say in personalizing and using them
> Sorry, my cars, my rules
> New owners load one with explosives and run it in to the factory, destroying one production line and killing a bunch of folks

It's still not a great analogy and Zeon come off less evil than they should perhaps, but it's a lot better than your one. People like them because they have a sympathetic root cause, cool uniforms and suits and some good characters for the most part. Most of these people seem aware that they're fucked up and ready to admit it but just like their aesthetic or characters regardless, because that's entirely possible and there's nothing wrong with it. People with more nationalistic mindsets also like them because they find military governments good or something I suppose.

>>13600687
>> Finds bunch of people and forces them to take cars as their new and only cars
[citation needed]

>>13600691
According to Tomino's novels and Unicorn's, people were shipped to space because Earth was overcrowded.

>>13600694
The colonies were pretty much the Australia of the UC, IIRC. Besides, most of the colonists were low-income/middle-class people who the Earth elite can afford to send to shitty pipes in space so they can have all the white sand beaches and ski resorts to themselves.

>>13600694
>>13600701
Good thing novels aren't canon.

>>13600701
>shitty pipes in space
>A majority of the space colonies we see are pleasant places with climate control, spacious suburban housing and free public transport
>Even supposed shitholes like Shangri La and Sweetwater have abundant space and greenery
>They even have whole colonies dedicated to being tourist resorts like Texas Colony or that colony in Zeta.
>Meanwhile most of the people we see on Earth are living in shitty slums, bombed out villages or refugee camps

Spacenoids are a bunch of self-entitled whiny shits.

>>13600701

The colonies probably have white sand beaches and ski resorts too. They seem pretty cushy in most cases, and better off than places like Hong Kong on Earth.

>>13600704

Everything that's ever actually gone in to detail on it has take the position that people were forced to migrate. And in the case of Unicorn, it's held to be official too.

>>13600704
On one hand, I like the idea of spacenoids being the masses who were forced to emigrate to space, not knowing if they'll survive at all.
On the other hand,
>novel
>canon

>>13600687
You're forgetting the part where they killed the owner of the car they packed with explosives to get it and just left his body there when they used it as a bomb. Also the part where they completely missed the production line and hit somebody's house.

>>13600716
>Colony Public Corporation slogans such as “You too can live a dream life in the new world” inspired people to apply for emigration, and entire families and regions began applying. With one-way tickets in hand, people began departing for every colony.
>http://www.gundam-the-origin.net/en/world/orientation02.html

The whole 'everyone in space was forced off by the Evil Feddies' is a myth Spacenoids tell themselves so they can feel better when they're dropping colonies onto Earth. Just like how everyone on Earth is an 'Earth Elite', even those poor saps living in shitty desert villages. Even Unicorn points out that most of those who went to space did so willingly.

>>13600744
You know, what's funny about the whole thing is that, in the end, it all devolves into politics and resource-grabbing. Sympathies earned will benefit whichever power is seeking it.

>>13600721
>missed
more like the people who built the car tried to stop it but just sent it careening into someone's house

>>13600720
>>13600704
>>13600694
I take it no one here has watched 0079?

>>13601047
>he thinks people actually watch things
laughingzeeks.jpg

Having an opinion doesn't make it fact. As retarded as black knight is he usually does source his claims.

>>13601047
Did they ever say that in the anime?

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>>13600691
>>13600694
It's in the show as well.

Kai makes it clear anyone who lives on earth is considered elite by those who were forced to emigrate to space.

>>13601123
I remember Cecily saying the same thing in F91, but I don't remember any animated version explictly saying what Tomino's novel wrote (overcrowded Earth), at most I remember some character saying Earth was polluted.

>>13600636
>>13600687

Guys. Stop with these cars annalogies.

You are terrible at analogies.

Analogies are supposed to make sense. Not just take any word you want and change it for "cars".

Fucking retards

>>13601139
I car'd your mother last night, car.

>>13601141
>not "I char'd"
You fucked up.

>>13601123
Have you ever looked at the population stats for UC even before the OYW? Earth is massively depopulated. There's TWO BILLION on Earth just a couple of decades before war breaks out. Earthnoids are outnumbered by space citizens more than 4:1. Everyone's heading off to live in colonies because the planet itself is so shitty. You couldn't force >80% of the population into space if you wanted to. This stuff is voluntary, Earth land is not at a premium, and every on-screen depiction of colonies vs. Earth cities clearly supports the idea that space life > Earth life.

The notion that the people living on Earth are somehow better off is fucking silly. Characters can say that shit until they're blue in the face but it doesn't mean a goddamn thing when we keep getting dust-covered Earth slums juxtaposed with sparkling suburban colony cylinders with GODDAMN LAKES AND SWANS. The worst colonies we see are the ass-end of Judau's where he's purposefully living in Scrapland to support his job and some apartment blocks in late-ass Unicorn on an early mining colony surrounded by Zeonwank.

>>13600704
Neither is ZZ but that's not stopping people from propagating the meme that it is.

>>13601208

You are the meme.

Here's your reply.

>>13601163

So fucking retarded.

Watch the goddamn movies.

Yes, there are two billion on earth. They are the elite.

People were kinda forced to go into space, yes. Not as in forced, they were dragged out of their homes, no, but forced as in, they didn't have the option. The elite had.

It's all in the series and the movie.

>>13600636
While all this is just another day on Mr. Bones' wild /m/anchild trollercoaster, I do have to remark that Zeon aren't supposed to be the good guys. No-one is. Not even Amuro, not even Kamille, not even Judau, not even Banana. It's a selfish universe of selfish people.

>>13601163
Which is why the original series spent so many episodes focusing on the stupid old people white base was carrying around that were demanding to be allowed back on earth.
>when we keep getting dust-covered Earth slums juxtaposed with sparkling suburban colony cylinders with GODDAMN LAKES AND SWANS
When is that shown to be the case in the one year war? 0079 showed the colonies as average and suburban for the most part, while it showed most of earth as untouched countryside. Side 3 on the other hand is pretty universally portrayed as a slum.

>>13601338
>not even Banana
Come on anon

>>13601163
That's because you see the world only in post colony drop where everything got fucked up.

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>>13601099
Yes. Literally the first thing that's ever said in the first episode is that people were being moved to space because of overpopulation on Earth. After that they also keep saying and showing, through out the series, 0079, Zeta and ZZ how only the elite stayed on the recovering Earth.

>>13601338
And the /m/anchild /m/orality /m/oron appears to tell /m/ to stop having fun.

>>13601373
>Yes. Literally the first thing that's ever said in the first episode is that people were being moved to space because of overpopulation on Earth.

"manking began moving its burgeoning population to outer space" =/= "people being forced to move off Earth".

>After that they also keep saying and showing, through out the series, 0079, Zeta and ZZ how only the elite stayed on the recovering Earth.

[citations needed]

>>13600636
>people unironically embrace zeon as the good guys again

I believe this has much to do with the fact that Zeon is literally Axis powers in space, so butthurt Japs and neonazis fanboy them regardless of what they did, just like, you know, people fanboy its prototypes. Except fanboying Zeon allows you to stick it to the Allies without a social stigma associated with being a neo-Nazi/historical revisionist.

>>13601123
>Kai makes it clear anyone who lives on earth is considered elite by those who were forced to emigrate to space.

And we should take an opinion of a butthurt teen (that is constantly contradicted by everything shown on screen) as an opinion of the author why?

For an incompetent government, EF sure taking care of its people, creating new colonies for more humans to reside in space, free from air pollution and slums down on the "Elite Earth".

Hate on EF all you want, they still have the cajones to hold down for nearly 200 years and instead of curled up and die like an animal they decide to fuck it and fight for the sake of Earth on the brisk of total collapse after being attacked constantly for nearly 75 years after OYW.

>>13601431

Unfortunately, EF is incompetent. Specifically, excessively peaceful. Time and again their military is underquipped to fight the latest genocidal maniac poised to slaughter billions, and they loathe to strike first at anyone, no matter how obviously threatening. The only time they tried to preempt threats instead of reacting to them, that ended up in a civil war.

Sure, this is because wunderkids have to get their chance to save everyone single-handedly in Gundams, but still.

>>13601457
The last time they equipped their army to the brim some asshole decided to "fuck this shit I'm gonna take over the world" shenanigans.

And when they have the latest weapon that have the capability to deliver a first strike, some civilian loathe at them because "The Federation are evil tyrant creating weapon of mass destruction"

Personally I kinda pity the federation, they are like those policeman who get yelled at for not doing their job and get stabbed when they do.

>>13601416
>=/=
It's heavily implied. "moving its" implies that people are being actively moved.

>[citations needed]
FUCKING
WATCH THEM

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>>13601163
>every on-screen depiction of colonies vs. Earth cities clearly supports the idea that space life > Earth life.
What

Most of the depictions of Earth in UC that aren't cities that got ganked by Zeon and ungoverned 3rd worlders are rich ass motherfuckers having fancy parties.

>>13601352
Those stupid old people were a minority even on the White Base. The rest of the refugees were eager to get back to their homes on Side 7.

>Side 3 on the other hand is pretty universally portrayed as a slum.

Bullshit. The only Side 3 colonies we get a look at are Zum City and Mahal and both of them are urbanised but not slums.

BTW, this is what Origin has to say about the state of the Earth pre-OYW

>At this point, every region of Earth is overflowing with refugees. There is a steady influx to Southern Europe and other regions where the economy is even slightly better. This turmoil has started to have a major negative impact on the entire planet's economy. It began with the exhaustion of underground resources that had been squandered for many years, leading to an energy shortage. Large-scale emission of greenhouse gases wreaked destruction on the planet's environment and accelerated its desertification. The lack of water resources and agricultural land fundamentally disrupted the balance of food supply and demand, and local quarrels escalated into bloody conflicts. Desperate for sustenance, people were unwillingly forced to become nomads and refugees.
>http://www.gundam-the-origin.net/en/world/orientation22.html

Look at those Earth Elites, living it up in that paradise while those 'poor, oppressed Spacenoids' are suffering in their spacious colony cylinders with clean air and water, no pollution and shiny suburban houses.

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>>13600636
Here let me try
>Country makes colony
>Country has lower classes that are fucked in the homeland
>Lower classes move for a better future/are deported for not being agreeable with homeland
>Pilgrims move and begin anew
>Initially dependant on Homeland they work hard and build new country and culture,
>National pride develops and economically they are unmatched because they are not bogged down by stupid homeland politics
>Eventually Homeland demands more and more benefits from Colony's plentiful produce
>Colony demands independence, as it is now culturally and economically empowered
>Que war, where in they
oh, oh wait...

>>13602267
Was literally going to post this

>>13600715
>Meanwhile most of the people we see on Earth are living in shitty slums, bombed out villages or refugee camps
And in the same time Earthnoid elite owns huge houses and eats expencive food.
The earthnoids are either wage slaves, or owners of the means of production in space. They all deserve to die.

>>13602380
>wage slaves with no will of their own

>>13602267
I haven't been to /his/ in a while but I'm pretty sure the Revolutionary War didn't start with Canada getting dropped onto Britain, anon.

>>13601139
Look on the bright side - we've got a premise for a car mecha parody series, and the plot for the pilot.

>>13602407

Can the second episode be about a delusional paranoid convinced that aliens are hiding out as cars on Earth, going around blowing them up to force the aliens to reveal themselves?

>>13602234
The whole deal in UC is people are forced to space because Earth has been going to shit in terms of environment and resources from too many dudes, but the rich people are too busy being rich and not giving a shit to actually help the planet recover like it should.

Dakar is practically designed to show it, as while the Earth Federation big wigs live it up in their fancy oasis city just outside the desert is overtaking everything and a bunch of niggers are fighting with nuclear powered mobile suits over nothing.

Spacenoids resent the Federation elite that can't even be bothered to care about their backyard let alone colonies hundreds of thousands of miles away, not the poor ass losers.

>>13602234
>Those stupid old people were a minority even on the white base
No they weren't, have you even watched the fucking series?

Origin is different in a lot of ways, though, and that is one.

>>13602598
I did. I remember 5-6 old guys leaving the White Base (only to get shit dead by Char, great idea, that). That was out of what, 30 or more refugees on the White Base? That makes them a minority, dumbass.

>>13602655
*shot at by Char

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>>13602403
But the war start when The colonist drop the TEA

>>13600636
Zeon=America
EF=Ugly ass Brits

There now you understand why people side with the right nation.

>>13601373
>only the elite stayed on the recovering Earth

This is said, but the animation tends to show a lot of not exactly elite people.
-The restaurant owner from the Ramba Ral arc
-The numerous people from Amuro's hometown who, despite the supposed elite status, live in refugee camps and are pretty regularly talked down to by rank and file soldiers from both sides
-That one random guy Amuro tries to buy water from
-Numerous pockets of Islamic groups that managed to not get deported by the government
-Hong Kong looks to be filled with a lot of average citizens with the only thing close to an elite being Stephanie Luou Carbine
-Dublin is loaded with a lot of people who clearly aren't seen as elite since EF high command basically treats the colony drop threat as a chance to clean out some refuse
and, if we nudge that little way past ZZ into CCA, Mirai and Cheimin spend the better part of the movie trying to make their way out of the crowded slums on Earth.

For as much as there's talk of all Earthnoid's being elite, the depiction seems to suggest that is mostly talked up rhetoric. There are certainly still some, but many would only be seen as 'Elite' by virtue of the fact they're living an average life on Earth as opposed to an average to better life on the colonies.

>>13603264
Well, it's not as if the elites can actually make up the majority of the population of Earth. Earth is a big fucking place. They shipped off a bunch of non-elites into space.

There's also the whole thing where like, half of Earth's population was killed off during the war. Losing half your population does tend to raise poverty levels.

>>13603291
The Elites reside on Earth only count up to what 0.5% of total population on Earth?
while 99.5 are below average.

While in colony we can see people have their own house with air-free pollution and green scenery

>>13603264
>-The numerous people from Amuro's hometown who, despite the supposed elite status, live in refugee camps and are pretty regularly talked down to by rank and file soldiers from both sides
That's clearly because of the war though. If you want to include that kind of shit then the colonies came off way worse from the indiscriminate nuke usage at the start of the war, gassing, deportation, etc.

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Does "Earth Elite" really carry an upper-class connotation? It makes more sense to me that spacenoids just use it to refer to people the Federation didn't forcibly uproot and send into colonies, which could have happened for a variety of reasons, like living in a remote/unimportant location that made it difficult for the Federation to get them into space, or just because of a low population density and thus no need to reduce overpopulation (Amuro is sometimes thought to be Candian, with Canada having one of the lowest population densities of any country, and it didn't seem as if many people in his hometown were forced to move into space).

>>13603320
Yeah, but it's a matter of scale. Everyone in the colonies lives in American Dream houses or apartment complexes and condominiums. The super rich that left Earth to build colonies and shit have extravagant mansions. Plus, you should assume that there will be vast regulations to keep self-sufficiency up in the colonies. Water usage is going to be a big one, as well as air quality issues.

On Earth, a large chunk of the population is gone, and that frees up massive real estate. Not to mention the fact that you get blue skies, forests, and all sorts of other nice scenery. You don't get that in the colonies, where there's no sky and any nice scenery is basically a small Central Park to keep people from losing their minds.

So basically if you're an elite on Earth you can have a fuckhuge plot of land, use all the water you want on your lawn because you're partially responsible for running the planet anyways, and you have an actual sky to do shit in or fuck up as you please.

>>13603435
That's actually a good point. Elites aren't inherently rich. You can be an elite and not be rich by the political definitions of the term.

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>>13601139

...ok

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>>13603609

>>13603609
Your picture appears to have an issue.

>>13603621

Damn Ipad.

>>13603631
Enjoy your Appleheim.

>>13603648

>Appleheim

?

when people are uprooted and forced by outsiders to move to foreign land, no matter how nice it is there is always resentment. let me remind you that side 3 was the farthest side away from earth and wasn't well supported by the earth and when your government is't doing their job well then people will decide its time for a change. alot of the side shown in UC that are "nice" are feddie aligned or neutral colonies and are a lot newer than the early colonies of side 3. Shangrila is shithole with good portion of it being this massive dump and the homes judau and the kids lived in were slums. also you are right that people on earth live in crappy conditions and some earthnoids even joined zeon because they don't like the feddie government either. also after months of war on earth, lots of cities had refugees.

>>13603264
the elite are the ruling class of earth. the fatcats laughing their heads off when haman decided to colony drop dublin and they applauded it. you can defend the people of earth wanting to protect their homeland but how can defend the heads of the federation government? besides military leaders like Revil you don't see anyone in the high leadership of the federation who is decent or cares about the well being of earth.

>>13603609
>>13603618
This is one of the Feddie's best and brightest of 4chan's Federation Internet Defense Force too.

>>13601457
Yes, ignore the massive military build ups they did in the 0060's and 0070's who's sole objective was to intimidate Side 3, who at the time only had a national guard and not a free standing army.

>>13601745
They don't watch them and just do this to troll.

>>13603264
>Narration from the show itself contradicts you
>But mum scenes!
And you people say I'm obtuse

>>13602403
>Analogies need to be one/one
Didn't you know George Washington commissioned Benjamin Franklin to create a device that would draw an asteroid into Earth's orbit and have it crash land into London? Unfortunately it took over 200 years for the Chelyabinsk Meteor's orbit to decay enough to achieve reentry and it hit Russia instead

>>13602267
The thing that always bugs me about the "Zeon is America!" comparison is the major difference between what American leaders and Zeon leaders wanted out of their wars. Zabi-controlled Zeon wanted domination over the Earth Sphere, not just simply independence. The leading figures of the Zabi family, Degwin and Gihren, were power-hungry men more than willing to use Deikun's ideals as propaganda to incite soldiers to fight the Federation, involve neutral spacenoids in their power plays/war efforts, issue orders that directly lead to massive civilian casualties, and murder the former head of state in order to cement their control (although it's always been purposefully ambiguous whether or not Degwin really did kill Deikun).

This's always been my problem with Zeon; their leaders have never been the lesser evil when compared to the Federation. Gihren, Haman, and Char are all more than happy to preach the virtues of Deikun's beliefs, cooperating with other spacenoids and earthnoids, and peacefully ending conflicts via treaty, but they're more than willing to gas and drop colonies/asteroids on Earth to accomplish their goals. And while the top Federation officials are more often than not utter scum, being governed by selfish asshats in a democracy is likely easier on the common person than by selfish asshats in a Fascist dictatorship.

>>13603818
>The "Zeon is America" comparison doesn't work
>The Zabis just wanted to rule the Earth Sphere!
That comparison applies mainly to pre-Zabi Zeon, where it really was an America-esque uprising. Post-Zabi Zeon are more of a representation of imperialism than anything else.

It would be more correct to say that Zeon 'was' America. Zeon at its core is a similar situation and had a similar set of ideals and circumstances. That's where the comparison mainly comes from.

>>13603828
Ah, makes more sense. Thanks to 0079/OYW, "Zeon" almost always connotates Zabi Zeon, both in and out of the series, so I immediately just viewed it under the filter of "Zabi Zeon," even though nearly everything in that post predates Deikun's death. If anything, the spacenoids' struggles against Feddie rule has always been a just cause, and it's unfortunate that so many spacenoid pushes for independence were tainted by the Zabis. Would be interesting to see an alt-UC where Deikun didn't die or a more level-headed/less jingoistic leader came into power after his death.

>>13601088

He doesn't really. When it comes to Zeon stuff he makes his arguments sound good and maybe implies sources but he doesn't actually provide them. Worse yet, I'd say he's a negative on that front since he not only doesn't he provide sources but he regularly asks for people to provide them while ignoring that he isn't providing any himself - even when people ask for them. His "ZZ isn't canon" argument being a good example. He's been saying that for years, but when people ask for a source he simply rattles off an argument about precedent and then acts like it's a source and if really pressed will demand a source saying it is canon. How can you provide a source of a company refuting something they never claimed in the first place?

He also regularly argues from logic. Or at least, logic as he sees it. The problem is, he's more arguing from reason and there's a difference between reason and logic, which is essentially that reason sounds good while logic sounds right. It sounds reasonable that the A New Translation movies would supersede Zeta and ZZ based on precedent he provides, but it doesn't matter because Bandai and Sunrise still support ZZ all the time. They mention it on the official Gundam site in articles, it's always in official books on UC history and it's still getting models. In contrast to the no longer official G-Savior, which gets none of that treatment and hasn't since 2003.

>>13603998

For more examples though, let's look at his contribution to this thread >>13603743

> ignore the massive military builds ups [the Feds] did in the 0060s and 0070s whose sole objective was to intimidate Side 3, who at the time only had a national guard and not a free standing army.

Sounds like a reasonable argument doesn't it? It's not true though, and more importantly he knows he isn't true because I've been arguing with him about it in another thread. After Zeon seceded the Federation had a modest armament program that consisted of them building some new spaceships, which they showed off to their own brass at a naval parade in their own territory. Now, Zeon might have seen that - but if they did they had to do so by going in to Federation territory, in which case they really only have themselves to blame for being intimidated. And then they did nothing with those ships for another 4 years, even after the naval review, which was already 4 years after they had begun arming. If you're building weapons and then sitting on them for 8 years, you're not planning on doing anything major with them.

The Federation also had a much bigger armament program in the 0070s after Degwin took power. What Black_Knight is failing to mention here is that by the time that this armament program had begun Zeon had already been in the midst of it's own armament plan for over a year. They'd weaponized the minovsky particle in two separate ways (radar jamming and mega particle guns) and begun building military ships (the Papua). Zeon had a headstart on the Federation on that one.

All of which is detailed at http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/timeline.php by the way if you're looking for sources. Ultimatemark being the personal site of Mark Simmons, who works for Sunrise and is about the most reputable source of Gundam lore in the West. He also has translations for several Gundam books on that site.

>>13604001

Now, Black_Knight's response to all this in the other thread has been to question the source since there's no working links anymore given that Gundam Offical changed their site in the past and to argue that because there's no source the Papua was meant to be a transporter and not a military supply ship. At some point he (and most everyone here) are going to have to take someone's word for it though, because we don't speak Japanese. And I'll take Mark Simmon's word on the matter given his reputation and history. So, even if we ignore the Papua and say it wasn't intended to be a military ship, Zeon still started arming in the 0070s before the Federation did.

> Narration from the show itself contradicts you
> But mum, scenes!
> And you people say I'm obtuse

And here's another example. Black_Knight is arguing that the narrator of one show supports him (i.e. a source) and acting like that's enough on it's own, despite not giving any context for what the narration means or why it should be taken over the narrative provided by watching 4 shows and two movies when the two provide opposing arguments. What's worse, in this case the narrator is actually pretty vague and could be taken to mean either side of the argument given his wording.

>>13604001
>Sounds like a reasonable argument doesn't it? It's not true though.
According to your own source it absolutely is true with a minor caveat, and I've read the documentation to support it which has been posted in threads of this kind many, many, many times before. I know you've read it, since you claim to have been a part of these arguments in the past.
>Side 3 declares its independence, and the Republic of Zeon is established. A National Guard is formed.
>The Federation government applies economic pressure against Side 3.
>The Earth Federation Space Force is established.
>The Federation Forces launch the '60s Armament Reinforcement Plan. Luna II is converted into a military base.
>The Zeon National Guard is promoted to the status of a full-fledged military.
After the formation of the Zeon National Guard the Federation and Zeon enter into a military build-up to counter one another going into the Zabi reign. The Federation produces enough ships to hold a naval review while Zeon forms its own military.

The documentation regarding the history of Zeon and the unofficial documentation you've provided back up the idea that the Federation was trying to intimidate Side 3. Why wouldn't they? It's absolutely in their best interest to nip their rebellion in the bud as quickly as they can, and the Federation has always been toted as imperialistic and stupid throughout the entire timeline. The one caveat I mentioned before is the slight plot hole regarding the Federation not already having a space fleet to combat things like piracy (which continued to be an issue throughout the UC timeline) and terrorism.

The Federation doesn't have to do anything with their ships to be saber rattling. Building them is saber rattling. Having a naval review is saber rattling. It was partially saber rattling (in addition to being a conspiratorial act) in 0083 as well. This is what the Federation does, just like the United States does that in the present day with our carrier fleets.

>>13604001
>Muh Mark Simmons
Look, I'll respect the guy if he's insistent on being a superfan and translator of material, but if he's telling you anything other than the facts regarding the simultaneous military build-up of the Zeon and Federation in response to one another he's dead wrong. Just because he's a so-called 'expert' doesn't mean he's always right, and especially not if he can't see something so very clearly laid out in timelines.

>>13604003
>Zeon still started arming in the 0070s before the Federation did.
Except that's not even true. First of all, your time table is totally off by more than a decade. Secondly, there's absolutely no way that the Earth Federation had no military forces in space whatsoever. Zeon's little group of dissidents didn't just manufacture their national guard out of thin air, after all. That technology and those weapons had to come from somewhere, and the Federation had to have some way to combat piracy, terrorism, and unrest in space (we know for a fact that early UC wasn't exactly the most peaceful time).

I get that you, like most people, hate Black_Knight. That doesn't mean you get a free pass to be just as blind and stupid as he is.

Get your shit together, Anon.

>>13604003
>Now, Black_Knight's response to all this in the other thread has been to question the source since there's no working links anymore given that Gundam Offical changed their site in the past and to argue that because there's no source the Papua was meant to be a transporter and not a military supply ship.

That's because Black_Knight is an idiot, or even worse, dishonest. Just looking at Mark's site gives us this source: http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive/gundamcentury.html

Which includes some interesting tidbits regarding Zeon's armaments program:

>It was therefore natural to think of combining both plasma rockets for low-thrust cruising and chemical rockets for high acceleration, a method which compensated for the shortcomings of each. In U.C. 0055, Side 3, planning for its independence from Earth, began developing military spaceships using the aforementioned method. These were the space warships later known as the Chivvay and Papua.

>>13602403
I wish we can drop Canada onto Britain.

>>13603998
First off, sounds like your doing the exact same thing you're accusing me of doing. No longer being part of the prime timeline doesn't mean something ceases to exist all together. G-Savior which you cited is a perfect example of this because it was shown in Gundam Build Fighter.

>>13604001
Onto the meat of your argument. I'm willing to play your game and look at the sources you cite, or at least the ones that work.

>U.C. 0058.09.14 - Side 3 declares its independence, and the Republic of Zeon is established. A National Guard is formed.
>U.C. 0059 - The Federation government applies economic pressure against Side 3. and The Earth Federation Space Force is established.
>U.C. 0060 - The Federation Forces launch the '60s Armament Reinforcement Plan. Luna II is converted into a military base.
>U.C. 0064 - The Federation Forces hold a naval review. The new spaceships developed as part of the Armament Reinforcement Plan take center stage.

So Side 3 declares itself independent from the Federation and creates a self defense force since they reasonably can't rely on the Federation's military. The Federation responds with economic sanctions, announces the creation of military space force AND then announces they're building a fleet. This is clearly done in response to Side 3's actions and meant as a one two punch of intimidation. Don't forget when 60's Armament Reinforcement Plan was completed the Federation then preceded to parade all their ships around for Side 3 to see. This was clearly an action of aggression and intimidation. Or are you going to say there's nothing to note about a hostile force building a giant fleet of ships and then parading it on your front door strep? Also, where did you get the words 'modest' and 'much bigger'? I'm not seeing that and it makes me think you're trying to downplay the Federation's initial military build up and aggression which caused Side 3 to respond with their R&D and weapon development.

>>13604034

> According to your own source it absolutely is true

Not the way he words it isn't. The way Black_Knight has worded it makes it appear that the Federation had two phases where they massively increased their armaments while Zeon did nothing and that Zeon responded only after the second because what else could they do when the Federation was obviously getting ready to attack? Which isn't true. Zeon under Degwin started arming themselves and the Federation saw that and responded (including stealing minovsky tech from Zeon) in kind by arming themselves even more because Zeon were doing the same.

The Federation absolutely were complicit in the matter - and if my wording seemed to absolve the Federation of any guilt in the matter then I apologize for wording it badly, because both sides were doing only what seemed sensible and necessary given their circumstances at the time, but the end result was that both sides entered a cycle that pushed themselves and the other toward war. The entire thing is obviously meant to be a shades of grey history where both are just as guilty, at least up until the war itself started and Black_Knight's wording consistently seems to try and paint Zeon as being free of any guilt in the matter and pinning it all on the Federation.

> The one caveat I mentioned before is the slight plot hole regarding the Federation not already having a space fleet to combat things like piracy and terrorism.

I've never gotten the impression from reading this stuff that they didn't have any kind of space fleet prior to that point - only that, in typical Federation fashion, the fleet they had was small and outdated because they hadn't really needed to update it for decades before that point since there had been no war since at least the beginning of the UC calendar that we know of. So when Zeon seceded they started building more ships to actually have a half way decent space navy, rather an old and tired one.

>>13604003
http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/uc/background/timeline.html
This one didn't, so I'm poking fun at you for that because of where it leads to.

Also the bibles have been notoriously inconsistent on the particulars over the decades. Just look at the numbers of combatants at the Battle of Loum.

>Zeon still started arming in the 0070s before the Federation did.
This is where having IDs would be nice because if you're the anon who's treating Simmons like an infallible prophet, you just utterly discredited yourself, by your own sources no less. The first major arms build up was initiated by the Federation via the '60s Armament Reinforcement Plan less than 2 years after Side 3 declares their independence. You cannot deny that unless you want to say your sources are no longer creditable or try to spin a self defense force as something that can be used threaten people.

>>13604120
A supply ship is still a transport regardless of how you spin it. Also 'armed' is highly subjective since it had AA guns for self defense. Even if we run with the idea that the Papua was designed to be a Missile boat originally, that was only done well after the completion of 60s Armament Reinforcement Plan and mere months before the Federation initiated the 70s Armament Reinforcement Plan. As for the Minovsky particle, that was only discovered at the the Federation held the Naval review, and even if research was conducted beforehand, we don't know if it was originally for military application or moved towards that do the Federation's aggressive stance.

>>13604404


> The Federation doesn't have to do anything with their ships to be saber rattling. Building them is saber rattling. Having a naval review is saber rattling.

It is, but I would say that saber rattling of that kind is purely an intimidation tactic and never meant to precipitate an actual attack. The opposite really. It's purpose is to go "don't attack us, or else we'll make you regret it", as opposed to "we're building all these to come fuck your shit up". It's to ward off the enemy from attacking, not to intimidate them before you attack. And that it's an important distinction.

The Federation was still screwing Zeon, but they were doing it purely by means of economic isolation and didn't appear to ever want to go war with them, only to try to ensure that Zeon wouldn't start anything either - and that if they did, they'd at least be able to stand up to it.

>>13604049

> if he's telling you anything other than the facts regarding the simultaneous military build-up of Zeon and the Federation in response to one another he's dead wrong

In this case I believe my wording is making his data look bad, rather than him being wrong.

> I get that you, like most people, hate Black_Knight.

I don't hate Black_Knight. I don't see how you could hate an anonymous person over the internet really, since it implies a depth of attachment and emotion I can't imagine given the circumstances. I find him bamboozling more than anything, because I'm curious to know why he's so convinced ZZ isn't canon despite the fact Banrise still support it that he can't even contemplate that he might be wrong and to know why he loves Zeon so much that he appears unable to admit any wrong doing on their part.

>>13604411


> Get your shit together anon

I hope the above clarifies a bit because you're right that I was being silly in response to him.

>>13604120

For the record, Gundam Century is no longer completely canonical, because while a lot of the data is still held to have happened, the dates for much of it have since changed in the official timeline. Which is written somewhere in the page for Gundam Century too I believe. One amendment in particular being that while originally Zeon were imagined to have began development of the Papua in 0055, currently it's held to be 0069 that they began development of them.

> G-Savior which you cited is a perfect example of this because it was shown in Gundam Build Fighters.

There's a vast difference between a two second cameo in a show that is built around cameos while having no support on the website, in official history and timeline books or any more models and in the case of ZZ, which has all of those things and more.

> then parading it on your front door step?

It's never suggested they paraded it around anyone's door step.

> Also, where did you get the words "modest" and "much bigger"

From the simple fact that the 0060's plan only consisted of ships while the 0070's one consisted of ships, balls, mega particle cannons and more besides.

> makes me think you're trying to downplay the Federation's initial military build up and aggression which caused Side 3 to respond with their R&D and weapon development

It's nice that you're finally willing to admit they actually responded to it in kind on some level - but that wasn't what caused it by the looks of things. They started R&D on weapons because Degwin took control by the sounds of things, not because of what the Federation did. We know after all that Degwin wanted to go to war, so it makes more sense that they'd start that research then after several years of silence rather than as a response to the Federation's armaments.

>>13604426
Yet you cited Gundam Century as gospel previously, now it's fallible because certain things were retconned? I assume you want me to just say the whole thing is untrustworthy now. Also no, there isn't a difference between G-savior and ZZ since the only thing that matters is they exist. Not part of the prime timeline, but exist. Doesn't matter how much information Figure speech, we don't know the exact location of the naval review, but it was clearly done to intimidate Side 3. You're mistaking 'bigger' with 'technological advancements at the time' For all we know the Armament Reinforcement Plan were all given nuclear warheads but because guidance systems were rendered useless by the Minovsky particle, they had to aim utilize other tech. A clear hypothetical, but the point stands. I never said Side 3 never responded to Federation aggression, I said it they only responded in kind to it since falsehoods were propagated that it was Side 3 that started the arms race. Also the Federation's aggression started well before Degwin took control.

there is literally nothing saying any single work is canon

>one person represents the attitude of an entire faction

TOP KLJASD

>>13604426
Also according to your 'source' Combat Balls weren't rolled out until June of U.C. 0079. (Hence the 79 in the B-79) And the Salamis and Magellan class ships had to be retrofitted with Mega beam weapons since the technology was only invented months before they were rolled out. If you're going to rag on sources, not citing the ones you treat as gospel only hurts your credibility.

>>13604577
What about saying it's 'figuratively' wrong?
We can all agree literally should be word filtered to 'figuratively' because of how it's been abused by the pubic.

>>13604845
you should get a word filter for the voices in your head since they're not canon either

>>13600636
I literally thought you were describing muslim immigrants.

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>>13604882
>Blatant shitposting
It's a shame people like you aren't banned from /m/. But I'll take consolation that my existence and convictions gets an emotional rise from you.

>>13601123
Zeon sure doesn't look like a bunch of poor ass peasants. They seem to have a shit ton of money and gold bars abound.
So why would they give a shit about the "elite" living on earth?

>>13604901
>They seem to have a shit ton of money and gold bars abound.
Zeon confirmed for space jews

>>13601421
>>13602267
>>13604907
So Zeon's a bunch of Space Nazi American Colonist Jews?

>>13604901

Can't rile your army up in to a mob if you don't have someone to demonize. And since most people in the colonies have never been on Earth, Earth is an easy scapegoat.

I for one enjoy Black_Knight. He's like the Donald Trump of gundam politics on /m/. Everyone thinks he's a complete nut, but on a sick level we all agree with him. It's great.

>>13606517
Black Knight - Making /m/ Great Again

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>>13607061
we order of the black knight now

>>13604556

> Yet you cited Gundam Century as gospel previously, now it's fallible because certain things were retconned?

Last time I mentioned it I gave the exact same proviso. I don't believe I mentioned it prior to that, but if I did and left out the proviso then I stand corrected and should have done so.

> I assume you want me to just say the whole thing is untrustworthy now.

I pointed it out because Zeon developing the Papua in 0055 would make them the aggressors and the Federation responding and not the other way around, which I'd have thought would make you happy. If you want to say the entire thing is trustworthy you can I suppose. I'll tell you you're being silly, but then you read that all the time so what difference would it make? Gundam Official still lists the Papua as being developed in 0069 regardless.

> Also no, there isn't a difference between G-savior and ZZ since the only thing that matters is they exist.

Except no, that isn't what matters since the argument is over how official each is viewed and there's clear differences in the way Bandai treats them. If you believe otherwise then find me a single mention of G-Savior on the official Gundam website. Or find me a mention of G-Savior in any official UC books published since 2003. Or any G-Savior models since that date.

> Not part of the prime timeline, but exist.

G-Savior flat out doesn't exist in UC anymore. Appearing as a cameo in Build Fighters doesn't make it part of UC anymore, since Build Fighters isn't a part of UC. It no longer appears in any UC histories or artbooks or so on. ZZ does. Hence, difference.

> You're mistaking 'bigger' with 'technological advancements at the time'

Says the guy who keeps referring to them as massive armament plans.

>>13608804

> Also the Federation's aggression started well before Degwin took control.

And also stopped well before he took control.

> according to your "source" Combat Balls weren't rolled out until June of UC 0079

You're right. I conflated the two armament plans in the UC0070s, but they're separate. Which means the Federation did early in UC0070 what it had done in UC0060 and built some new ships in the hopes it'd scare of Zeon from attacking and then left well enough alone again until it became obvious Zeon were gearing up and started building a third time in the late UC0070s. Which shouldn't be a surprise I suppose since the Feds were always lazy and cheap, so them building some ships and hoping that'd be enough is par for the course. Which means they responded twice to Zeon arming, not once. Which, I mean, I know you're just going to say is them trying to intimidate Zeon three times instead of two and the poor Zeon freedom fighters were only responding to the inevitable, but really, makes it look more like the Feds were just making the minimal effort the first two times to make a show of strength and would just have preferred never to go to war at all.

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>>13606517
Just give Trump a knight's helm and change all the news logos to '/m/ elitists' and that about sums up every thread he's in.

>>13606517
>but on a sick level we all agree with him
Speak for yourself, Zeek. He's been an immense faggot for years and everyone knows it. You're not fooling anyone who isn't new as fuck.

>>13609454
>>13609470
This is like clockwork.

>>13600636
Because the first man still looks at the second man's car as his car, and not his home, and the second man respects the first man's home, especially because he has ancestors who lived there, but the first man takes such poor care of the home that it might be worth the cost of crashing the car into the home to get the first man out of it, at which point, the home could be demolished and rebuilt to its former glorious condition. And that's not even getting into how the first man ridicules the second man for treating his car as his home, as well as dismissing the second man's philosophy about how richer his life has become since living in a car instead of a house.

>>13602380
>And in the same time zeonic elite owns huge houses and eats expensive food.
gee, whaddya know, the elite has it better.

>>13609730
Haman's palace is literally the only nice place in Axis.

Overall arguing about living conditions in UC is kind of like saying the Soviet Union was nicer than America because Detroit exists.

>>13603264
>-Dublin is loaded with a lot of people who clearly aren't seen as elite since EF high command basically treats the colony drop threat as a chance to clean out some refuse
The way it's actually put is that they would welcome anything that reduces the population of the planet. From the dialogue of various Federation officials in surrounding episodes that's so they have to share Earth's resources with as few other people as possible (places like the Sahara desert have basically been cut out of the system entirely already)

So economically and politically they are trying to force people into space so they can hog it for themselves, they just can't get rid of everyone either because they aren't actually poor enough or they're too isolated and impoverished for them to care.

>>13609775
>Zabi's, Ral's, Deikum's fucking enourmous mansions
>sleeves aristocratic as fuck facilities only full frontal and his fuckboi lived in

>>13609775
>zeeks complain about poor living conditions
>all their elite are allowed to live in mansions and waste assloads of money and resources on super weapons
>by the time Unicorn happens sleeve grunts live in poverty while they can spend millions on painting sleeves on their brand new MS, as well as buying Full Frontal the Neo Zeong
Zeeks bring it upon themselves.

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>>13609786
Colonies basically have to work in a pretty communist way just to survive, including strict limits on property and other assets for normal citizens. The main reason they even live in reasonable houses to start with is because the ecosystem couldn't support higher population density anyways.

Of course like most communist countries government officials and other influential people abuse the fuck out of their standing to live in excessive luxury.

>>13609786

The best part about the mansion Full Frontal uses in Palau is that it isn't even his - it's the house of the governor of Palau from what I remember. So it's not even belonging to a famous personality or a Zeon bigwig, just some random Spacenoid politician. The majority of the citizens of Palau live in tiny houses crowded in on each other in a hollowed out asteroid while their Zeek governor lives in a massive mansion with big, wide rooms just because wasting space is a sign of luxury and they complain about how Earthnoids are elite.

>>13609816
They also forced an entire colony's population to move so they could turn it into a WMD, there's a reason Side 3 didn't exactly welcome Axis back with open arms.

>>13600636
Fuck Zeon. Fighting for independence is one thing.

But did Washington ever declare total war on England? Did he randomly start terrorising and bombing England?

Fuck Zeon is invading Earth instead of running their colonies better.

This is not a war about freedom.

>>13609851
there was this one dude
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Paul_Jones#Ranger_attacks_the_British

Nothing on par with Zeon though.

>>13609817
>Colonies basically have to work in a pretty communist way just to survive, including strict limits on property and other assets for normal citizens.
You seriously are so retarded that you think
capitalism = infinite hoarding
communism = putting limits on material greed

>>13609871
CENTRAL

PLANNING

They lost any legitimacy with the colony drop.

They then solidly defined themselves as bad guys by proceeding to double down on their spacenoid supremacy shit after fucking up and killing billions of people.

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>>13609851

If the Federation acquiesced after the One Week Battle/Operation British then it would have stayed as a strict war for independence. But with Revil's escape and subsequent speech, the Antarctic Treaty became an arms treaty instead of the EFF's surrender.

The only way for Zeon to win was to invade the Earth and force the Federation to surrender. Of course at that point too it became even more about the Ere-ist part of Contolism than just the Side-ist part.

>>13603067
Friendly reminder to all Americans that they won because of the French.

Thanks to the Atlantic, European enemies and the complete irrelevance of the colonies Britain just threw in the towel at the end.

>>13609903
Uh huh, we are commonly taught this in school.

>>13609897

> The only way for Zeon to win was to invade the Earth and force the Federation to surrender

Or they could have simply kicked the Federation out of the colonies and never bothered with Earth if independence was all they were worried about. They didn't HAVE to invade Earth at any point. They wanted to, but they didn't have to. If Zeon had taken over every colony and then sat on them and left the Federation in control of Earth what exactly were the Federation going to do? They'd probably launch a few attacks, but if those failed they'd have to accept it sooner or later. Zeon would have had greater material resources and money too at that point since there's far, far more resources in space than on Earth (or the Moon).

>>13609862
Yeah but the American rebels were for the most part very civilized.

Zeon doesn't give a shit about the Geneva Convention it seems.

>>13609897
They didn't need to invade earth, and they didn't need to start destroying other colonies and doing colony drops, either.

They lost control of themselves and just kept taking it further.

>>13609917
>If Zeon had taken over every colony and then sat on them and left the Federation in control of Earth what exactly were the Federation going to do?
Create a large space fleet and pummel Zeon. You know, the exact thing that happens in MSG even with Zeon controlling half of the Earth. They weren't just going to sit there while Zeon took over space and go, "Ah, you guys got us this time! Well played Zeon! GG no re!"

The reason the British didn't press their numerous advantages over American colonists was the fact that they would be fighting a two-front war and would have to split their forces half-way across the world.

Zeon needed to force a swift and decisive surrender in order to get anything at all. There are no half measures in a situation like this. You either force the Federation to surrender because they believe it's their only option against your overwhelming force, or you die.

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>>13600691
>>13600704
>>13600720
>>13601099
>>13601416

I can't believe I share a board with you mongrels.

>>13601163
>You couldn't force >80% of the population into space if you wanted to. This stuff is voluntary
The old men in MSG who wanted off the White Base in the middle of the desert said they'd been forced to move to space and thought they'd never set foot on the earth again.
There are two slightly conflicting speeches in Unicorn, one where Marida says that the earliest pioneers were forced out into space, and another where someone else (Zinnerman?) says that there were also some opportunists who wanted to go.

But there's also the fact that it is stated that spacenoids cannot vote in elections for central (earth) government. If anyone could just move back to earth where they'd have representation in electing central government officials, there would be no political unrest regarding suffrage.


In the end, the complaint wasn't even that they were forced to live in nice colonies, it was that the elite who decided that everyone *else* had to move to space were unwilling to join the rest of humanity up in the colonies. Zeon thought that Spacenoids, being the majority of humanity by a 4/5 margin, should have the power to demand that the remainder of humanity also leave the earth. It was the hypocrisy of "everyone has to leave earth and move out into space....except us because we're in charge" that was the problem, not the living conditions of the colonies.

>>13609918
>the American rebels were for the most part very civilized.
Do you know that famous painting of George Washingto crossing the Delaware River with a group the size of the mormon tabernacle choir in his rowboat? Do you know what they're on their way to DO in that picture?

Kill the British in their sleep on Christmas morning.
The civilized Brits took a day off from war for Christmas, and the colonists knew it so they snuck over really early in the morning to slaughter the defenseless Brits who had called a cease-fire. Look it up.

>>13610040

> Create a large space fleet and pummel Zeon. You know, the exact thing that happens in MSG even with Zeon controlling half of the Earth

The One Year War was a huge expense on both sides of the fence and one of the main reasons the Federation fought so hard was because Zeon wanted to take everything, Earth included - not just the colonies. Zeon was threatening their homeland as well as to take all their power (not just some of it), so of course they fought back hard.

As is in the series they might have controlled half the Earth, but they also controlled less than half of space. They'd already destroyed large parts of it (which included manufacturing facilities they could have used) or they'd ignored them, like Side 6, Side 7 and the Moon. There were parts of Side 5 left too if I recall. So they were leaving themselves fighting a war on multiple fronts instead of fighting and winning one and then looking to the others if need be.

When you add in the fact the Zeon high command were constantly changing their minds about which weapons to use and that they'd killed off a large chunk of their potential soldiers by indiscriminately attacking sides of course they were losing.

> They weren't just going to sit there while Zeon took over space and go "Ah, you guys got us this time! Well played Zeon! GG no re!"

Well duh. Just because they attack back doesn't mean they'll win though. And eventually the command, the soldiery or the citizens are going to get exhausted and they'll stop. Not because they want too, but because they have too - because they're too tired or too financially broke to continue. The same thing nearly happens to the Federation multiple times throughout UC as is. In fact, by ZZ the Federation leadership is basically just sitting back and letting shit play out between any faction that isn't them because they're so tired of it. A trend that continues through Char's Counterattack and F91 and in to Victory.

>>13610226

> The reason the British didn't press their numerous advantages over American colonists was the fact that they would be fighting a two-front war

If Zeon controlled space Earth would also be attacking or open to attack on multiple fronts. Zeon would have them surrounded in a quite literal sense since the various Lagrange points ring the planet. Zeon would also control access to all the most valuable resources along with the majority of resource facilities, since Earth is practically empty of them by that point in UC. Earth can want to fight back - but there's only so much they could do with limited access to resources, to manufacturing and surrounded on every conceivable front.

> Zeon needed to force a swift and decisive surrender in order to get anything at all

Bullshit. That was what they thought, but there's really no reason to suppose it's true. Most successful revolutions in history have been won because of dogged determination, not because of successful swift strikes. Those help, but they're not the be all/end all you're making them out to be. Zeon set themselves up as a government with central offices and barracks and places to attack and then rebelled. They'd have been better off spreading as a movement throughout the colonies and getting wide-spread support before attacking so that the Federation was attacking a guerrilla force instead of a another, much smaller nation. Even if they wanted the money, power and status of government they'd have been better off gathering colonial allies and then attacking than attacking on their lonesome against a much larger foe and wiping everyone else out just in case.

>>13610222
Slaughtering soldiers is kinda what you're supposed to do in a war. The US rebels didn't go after civilians though.

>>13610226
Luckily in the real world most wars end at the negotiation table. Hell most wars are pretty much forgotten after a few years.

>>13610226
>And eventually the command, the soldiery or the citizens are going to get exhausted and they'll stop
This is true, and is in fact this is central to the history of the One Year War.
The meeting at Antarctica was actually supposed to be the EF surrendering to Zeon after only the first few weeks of the OYW. The losses on the Federation side were staggering and they were prepared to give up in the face of this overwhelming loss. BUT then those dumbass Tri-Stars captured Revill instead of killing him, letting Revill have a behind-the-scenes look at how badly depleted the Zeon forces actually were before he got snuck out of Zeon custody and made his speech about there being no soldiers left in Zeon. Revill told everyone that, as badly as Zeon had hurt the EF, the Zeon forces were actually in even worse shape and had no chance of winning in the long run which was why they were trying to force a very quick surrender. Once the EF knew that they could outlast Zeon, the meeting at Antarctica degraded from negotiating the EF's surrender to just limiting WMD activities from both sides because that removed Zeon's biggest military advantage. The Zaku were still highly effective, but Zeon spread out too far too fast and their supply lines couldn't keep up, so the territory they'd conquered was protected by very thinly dispersed forces with almost no supplies.
Then that whole "Trojan Horse" hunt happened and Zeon started throwing all their resources at this one ship with the unkillable White Devil while the rest of the EF built up their resources to zerg rush them with White Weenies.

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>make care
>sell it to one side
>Other side gets jelly and wants to compete
>Pays us to make a better car
>the first guys see this and demand and even better car
>repeat ad infinitum

>>13611409
Truly the only faction to profit from the Feddies and Spacenoids constantly being dicks to each other. At least until SNRI was formed.

>>13608804
The crux of your argument is that the blame for military build up between Zeon and the Federation starting that Side 3 was developing a missile boat in 0055, and then you come out in say it really started in 0069. This is a massive contradiction either by you or the sources you're citing.

Going by the maxim of Sunrise, 'if it's animated, it exits' than that means G-Savior exists regardless of if it's omitted from printed works. It might be retconned like ZZ, but it doesn't cease to exist just because they don't do anything with it. Now Sunrise said 'G-Savior no longer exists at all, period.' Your point there might have merit. But at this point, you can't just hand wave it off because Sunrise choose the neglect route.

You aren't going to start something called the 'Armament Reinforcement Plan' and settle for building a bunch of space tug boats. Just look at the size of the Naval Review in 0083.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXjaZe3lPF8

Is there any information on how big that Naval Review was? From what we saw there were hundreds of ships present. And let's face facts and look at precedents, the Federation never does anything small.

>>13608807
Hardly, Zeon commissions Papua and Chivvay to be the military's transporter and war ship respectively in response to the 60's Armament Reinforcement Plan (Even though they'd only be commissioned at the end of the decade.) And immediately after the Federation pushes forward with the 70's Armament Reinforcement Plan, since having one fleet of new ships isn't enough.

>>13615579
>Hardly, Zeon commissions Papua and Chivvay to be the military's transporter and war ship respectively

You really are a dishonest little shit, aren't you? You keep repeating the lie that the Papua was a mere transport/supply vessel when others have already posted (Complete with sources) that it was originally a MISSILE CRUISER. It's clear that the Papua was meant to be a warship escort to their Chivvay battleships, then when Zeon discovered Minovsky particle jamming made missiles useless, decided that rather than waste a hull that they've already invested in, that all that missile storage would make it a useful cargo ship.

It's even there in Mark's timeline if you bothered to read other people's sources instead of being a lying little shit:

>U.C. 0074.04 - The Principality of Zeon commissions the first of an improved type of Papua-class transport ship.
>* According to Gundam Officials, this new version features a Minovsky fusion reactor, and its missile storage has been converted to cargo space.
Note that Gundam Officials refers to the Gundam Officials encyclopedia not the now-defunct Gundam Official website.

I'd await your concession, but knowing you, you'll probably attack the source, shift the goalposts or go off on some wild unrelated tangent on how this proves that Zeon had no choice but to commit genocide.

>>13615579

> The crux of your argument is that the blame for military build up between Zeon and the Federation starting that Side 3 was developing a missile boat in 0055, and then you come out in say it really started in 0069.

Ummm...no, it isn't. It's a technical point we've been arguing for a while, but it isn't the crux of the argument. Even if you dismiss the commission of the Papua entirely or just pretend it was originally supposed to be a non-military ship Zeon still started arming in the 0070s before the Federation since they started researching the minovsky particle as a radar jamming device, made the mega particle cannon and built a Chivvay class ship before the Federation did anything. All dismissing the Papua's involvement does is reduce Zeon's lead on the Federation from 11 months to 6 months.

Zeon still almost certainly started arming because Degwin wanted to go to war and not because of the Federation's 0060's armament plan and the Federation definitely responded to Zeon's armament plan in the early 0070s, not the other way around.

> This is a massive contradiction either by you or the sources you're citing.

No, it isn't and I'll make one more effort to explain why. Shoji Kawamori and some of his friends came up with the basic timeline for a lot of the early UC stuff for a fanzine called Gunsight in the early 80s and Sunrise adopted it as official - around which time Gundam Century was published. After a few more shows they decided the dates were no longer compatible with what they wanted the timeline to be but that the events they detail were fine, so the dates for some stuff, like the year the Papua was commissioned were altered to fit within the next timeline and nothing more. Gundam Official, which was published later includes those altered dates and currently still stands as the official timeline.

There is no contradiction because both detail the same events, but the dates of one over-ride the dates of the other.

>>13616477

> Going by the maxim of Sunrise, 'if it's animated, it exits' than that means G-Savior exists regardless of if it's omitted from printed works.

Existence isn't the same thing as official/canon. You can still buy and watch G-Savior, but Bandai and Sunrise no longer want to do anything with the property, no longer even mention it on their sites and no longer include it in UC databooks, timelines and so on. They do all of that with ZZ because ZZ is official/canon while G-Savior isn't.

> Now Sunrise said 'G-Savior no longer exists at all, period.'

They've never made a statement on it, they just deleted all mention of it and stopped talking about it, even in data books. They've never done this with ZZ.

> the Federation never does anything small.

They also never start any wars. Or really get proactive at all - they're a very reactionary faction.

> Hardly, Zeon commissions Papua and Chivvay to be the military's transporter and war ship respectively in response to the 60's Armament Reinforcement Plan

Hardly. Degwin commissioned them because he wanted to go to war with the Federation and you need armaments if you want to go to war. We know from the show and movies Degwin and even more so Gihren were eager to take control via war and that was the reason they started arming, not because of the 0060's armament plan or naval review. They had to, because the armament plan and naval review weren't even in Tomino's mind at the time the series and movies were written.

> And immediately after the Federation pushes forward with the 70's Armament Reinforcement Plan, since having one fleet of new ships isn't enough.

The Federation appear to have just produced more old ships during the 0060's armament plan, while with the 0070's one they actually produced some new ships since they probably began to realize that the old stuff wouldn't cut it any more.

>>13616358
Whoa, whoa, whoa. no need with the insults, I expect some decorum from you wish for me to keeping humoring your views.
All I see here is
>improved type of Papua-class transport ship
>transport ship
You can claim it was a nuclear missile launching death machine, but it was commissioned as a transport ship. Even if we go by your backwards time universe supposition that the Papua was a ship of war, it was developed well after the Federation started their 60's Armament Reinforcement Plan. All the Tech and ships you listed was clearly in reaction to the Federation's aggression. Also unless you have proof, your claim about Degwin is a hypothetical and nothing more. So it's a timeline that's made out of whole cloth, and Bandai just adopted it because they didn't want to pay their writers to do that job? Sounds like the date the Papua being commissioned being change from before Side 3 declared its independence in 0055 to afterwards in 0065 is a HUGE difference. Existence is the same as official. Canon is a whole other can of worms, for another thread unless you really want the ZZ harpies to come in screaming 'ZZ IS CANON' when the facts just don't add up for that. The fact they never made an official statement is proof G-Savior's existence. They can ignore it all they want, but unless they disavow it, it's still on the table. The Federation's policies means war comes to them, if they weren't so corrupt, maybe they wouldn't have been in a constant state of conflict after Zeon started their war for independence. Also the Titans disproves that statement. Unless you're going to spin it like Vietnam and say it wasn't a war and just police action. Again, hypothetical with no solid proof. Both Degwin and what the Federation built in the 0060s.

Perhaps its time to throw in the towel. You're clearly starting to exhibit.. what did you call it? ' a depth of attachment and emotion'
by lashing out and saying 'You really are a dishonest little shit' Breathe deep and Relax.

>>13600636

>United Earth comes into existence as a military dictatorship
>Earth literally deports its poorest people into space against their will
>The new colonists have to eke out a living as asteroid miners
>The poorest colonies are in Side 3 and live in enclosed colonies with no windows and twice the overpopulation
>Earth rules the colonies as a dictatorship
>Side 3, the most oppressed, declares independence as a republic and calls out the UE on its assholishness
>The original UE charter even specified that Newtypes should be given equal representation
>Earth responds by using weapons of mass destruction on the colonies and makes the war an existential crisis for Zeon
>Zeon unveils a new weapon, the mobile suit, and goes full blitzkrieg in response
>Everybody wonders why Zeon are the good guys

This is like playing through the Killzone series and not realizing that the Helghast are the good guys.

>>13619867

> improved type of Papua-class transport ship

I see you've failed to mention that came several years after the standard version which is listed as

> U.C. 0069.10
> The Principality of Zeon commissions the first ship of the Papua class.
> According to Gundam Century and Gundam Officials, the Papua was originally designed as a missile cruiser and later converted to a transport ship.

Missile cruiser, converted to a transport ship? Why that almost sounds like it was originally a military vehicle?

> You can claim it was a nuclear missile launching death machine

We could. I mean, no-one has, but why let that stop you saying we have?

> Even if we go by your backwards time universe supposition that the Papua was a ship of war

Are you saying a missile cruiser isn't a war ship now?

> it was developed well after the Federation started their 0060's Armament Reinforcement Plan

Sure, but it was developed on Degwin's order almost immediately after he came to power and his desire to go to war has never been suggested to have anything to do with the 0060's armament plan. Which is the point. The Zabi's didn't start a war because of the armament plan and Federation intimidation, they started it because they wanted to control the Earthsphere and war was the best way to do so.

> your claim about Degwin is a hypothetic and nothing more

Did you not watch 0079 then? Did you not see his son, who was the military head talking about how reducing the population to acceptable levels was the best way to control the Earthsphere?

>>13620780


> So it's a timeline that's made out of whole cloth

Well it's a fictional one for a fictional story - yes. Does this surprise you?

> Bandai just adopted it because they didn't want to pay their writeres to do that job?

Sunrise adopted it, and why pay someone for something when the work is already done by amateurs for fun? It's nature as fictional doesn't under what it actually says since it'd be fictional regardless of who wrote it.

> Sounds like the date of the Papua being commissioned being changed from before Side 3 declared it's independence in 0055 to afterwards in 0065 is a HUGE difference

I suppose it would be if I had originally been claiming it was in 0055 and not just pointing out that the change had happened at some point along the line when someone else tried to say it. I've never claimed it happened in 0055 though, so I've no idea why you're so fixated on it.

> Existence is the same as official

No, it isn't.

> Canon is a whole other can of worms

Also wrong. Official is what the Japanese talk about instead of canon and they even use some of the same terminology as many Western creators and fans, talking about how anything filmed is white and and everything else is varying degrees of grey.

> unless you want the ZZ harpies to come in screaming "ZZ IS CANON"

It's fun watching you shout about how it isn't with no actual proof while you try and convince yourself and the board your use of precedent constitutes proof I suppose.

> when the facts don't add up

Neither do yours. I mean you're convinced they do of course, but you're adding 2 + 2 to get 5 when everyone and everything else including people who work for Sunrise saying that the ZZ films over-riding ZZ is laughable doesn't make it true.

>>13620781

> They fact they never made an official statement is proof G-Savior's existence

I think you probably mean officiality there, but they've never made a statement regarding canon/officiality/existence on any of their products full stop. Even the "everything filmed is official" is taken from an employee during an interview to my knowledge and not an official statement.

> it's still on the table

So is ZZ in that case. which makes it official i.e. canon as you use it.

> The Federation's policies mean war comes to them

Someone else still started that war and they are just as complicit in that as the Federation. They don't get off morally scott-free just because the Federation are shitty.

> the Titans disproves that statement

The Titans were a separate military arm of the Federation that started acting autonomously and even then they didn't start a war - the AEUG started a war with them.

> hypothetic with no solid proof

Have you not watched Mobile Suit Gundam? You should, it's pretty good. I think you'd like it. There is a guy talking about using war to maintain population numbers and it making controlling them easier and he's part of a family where several members try to kill each other for power and politics, but I mean - that's just part of the story so don't let that get you down.

>>13620782

About the ZZ thing. Black_Knight is using canon in the sense of "main/true timeline", which isn't what canon means but we can put that aside. ZZ is still part of the main timeline for UC though regardless, since it's still included in all the official Gundam data books, histories and timelines that detail the history of UC. G-Savior isn't, so it's no longer part of the timeline. A New Translation is never mentioned in them except as an alternate thing in an aside to my knowledge. Even in games that make use of the UC timeline like Dynasty Warriors, the G Generation games and what not ZZ takes priority over A New Translation.

>>13619949
>>Earth rules the colonies as a dictatorship
>Colonies provide nothing for Earth while Earth still provides food and resources for the colonies. This means the colonies should have equal political power
Sounds about right.
Also, Zeon's insurgence actually made things WORSE for spacenoids.

>>13623321
>Colonies provide nothing for Earth while Earth still provides food and resources for the colonies
That is decidedly not the case. Earth doesn't even have resources to share. The Dublin part of ZZ first has the EF guys laughing at people that don't eat real meat and then gloating about food prices going down with a lower population.

All major industrial materials and manufacturing are space based and colonies make their own food.

>Also, Zeon's insurgence actually made things WORSE for spacenoids.
That actually depends. A lot of places got fucked by the war quite clearly but in some cases the Federation's lack of fucks left to give gave the better off colonies some benefits.

>>13623321
>Colonies provide nothing for Earth while Earth still provides food and resources for the colonies.
The whole point of the colonies is that the Earth cannot support the demands of human life. If the colonies still relied on Earth for all their resources, they would be pointless.

Also Deikunists thought everyone should live in space and leave Earth completely human free, which is why Char tries to force it by dropping an asteroid and changing the climate so that the planet would be inhospitable to human life. If they couldn't survive without Earth's resources, that would be a pretty silly plan.

Also the Moon Moons seem to be able to survive in a colony despite being cut off from Earth and the rest of humanity so completely they forget how all their technology works and they start a mobile suit cargo cult.

>>13623321
Colonies provide almost all for Earth.
After the first colonies are built all that colonists get is the orders from the Earth. Resources are found on the Moon and asteroids, fuel is on the Moon and Jupiter.
While Earth gets some spacenoid industrial goods, some food and maybe clothes.
Colonists actually work while earthnoid owners are watching their profits growing.
The colonial regime with no changes causes the establishment of the extremist, paramilitary and religious movements

>>13623566
Sounds like every capital territory ever.

>>13620780
Standard version next existed according to your timeline, see the word 'designed'. My car is designed to fire missiles too, but it was commissioned to be just transport truck in the end. Because the Papua was never commissioned to be a war ship. Still developed after the Federation's aggressive actions. As a means of controlling the population after the war. There wasn't a scene of them saying they started the war with that intention though. Shows laziness of Sunrise's part. It's a point of emphasis since you keep claiming Zeon built up their military first. Yes it is. It's semantics. is that because my evidence comes from what was shown in the movies and how it interconnects with CCA so well? I guess using the Zeta movies and CCA as a source isn't good enough for you. The only one with crocked math is you, or do you work for Sunrise? Unless it's disavowed, it exists. Otherwise Sunrise wouldn't have let it the Savior into GBF. ZZ exists, it's not canon. Sometimes you have to fight for your rights, maybe Zeon's tactics were heavy handed, but they were entirely necessary for their objectives. Titans were clearly an entity of the Federation and not a separate force from them, this is well established. Again all you have is hypotheticals and no solid proof.

>>13620791
It's exactly what canon means. if you have a prime timeline that's the true line of events, that's canon. Everything else exists, but is not the true timeline so thus it's not canon.

Move time line - Prime time line = Canon
TV time line - alternate time line = Not Canon
novel time line - alternate time line = Not Canon
Origin - alternate time line = Not Canon
Thunderbolt - alternate time line = Not Canon
And I stress again due to the obtuseness of some posters here, just because it's not canon, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

>>13626910

> It's exactly what canon means. if you have a prime timeline that's the true line of events, that's canon. Everything else exists, but is not the true timeline so thus it's not canon.

Notice how you keep using the word timeline there? The reason you keep having to do that is because timeline has a different meaning than canon. All canon means is that it's recognized by the creators as being official and that any future stories can reference it as a narrative point, provided they take place within that universe. Otherwise it's just a cameo. Origin and Thunderbolt are both canon, because both are created by Sunrise and that's basically all canon means. They're alternate universe stories so they don't fit in to the same timeline, but they are very definitely official and canon.

G Gundam, Wing, X, SEED, 00, AGE and Iron Blooded Orphans are also canon despite being alternate universes stories, not only because Tomino used Turn-A to tie them all together (and Bandai doubled down on it), but because they establish and run on their own continuities and timelines.

As an example, let's take a look at Dragonball Z, specifically Trunks. For things to work out in Trunk's introduction and the Cell Saga there have to be three separate timelines, all of which continue to exist simultaneously and all of which feature a radically different series of events after Goku's return to Earth. If you make any one of them non-canon then the whole lot fall apart though, because all 3 are necessary to work. So all three need to be canon despite the fact that two of them are never going to be visited again and one of them is barely even seen.

It's also notable here that both the Dragonball manga and anime are canon despite having some differences that create continuity issues That's because, again, canon doesn't refer to timeline or continuity so both can be canon/official without creating any problems in that regard, since all it means is that the creators recognize them.

>>13630862

Getting back to the Gundam though, ZZ absolutely is official or canon. It's recognized all over the place, even after the A New Translation movies wrapped up, including in an OVA that started after that point, official histories and databooks, artbooks, games and so on. That wouldn't be possible if it weren't canon.

You can dispute whether it's part of the "true" timeline if you want, but it's officialness isn't really disputable because there's so much evidence that it's officially recognized by Sunrise and Bandai. Far more than A New Translation. Can you even name something that's officially recognized that specific interpretation of Zeta since it's release?

ZZ is part of the true timeline as well though. Even putting aside that the only UC entry since the A New Translation movies finished explicitly references it, so do all the official databooks and history of UC stuff. So Sunrise hold it to be the real timeline. And given that Tomino isn't actually doing anything that relies on a differentiation between Z/ZZ and A New Translation anymore (and very likely never will again) and that he's never said a word on the matter, that trumps any secret messages you think the movies are trying to tell about which is the real timeline or not.

Being able to go "but the movie trilogy for 0079 and SEED did it" doesn't actually mean that the Zeta movies do, because precedent isn't law and further entries have disproved the idea that it is by ignoring the Zeta movies. Which is fine. They still exist and can be enjoyed if you wish. They're just not the timeline further UC entries are going to reference going forward.

>>13630866
>>13630862
tl;dr and misrepresenting what is said.

You keep intentionally misrepresenting canon and official. There a is a difference between them that you either fail to understand or intentionally refuse to understand. Official means its recognized by Sunrise as existing. Canon means it's the recognized version of events of a particular timeline. Your flimsy dragonball analogy banks on the idea that you can have multiple timelines within the same timeline and thus, all timelines are now canon. Let's ignore the fact that Dragonball plays by the time paradoxes do not exist, and there isn't a singular timeline where time is just a single river, but can constantly fork with all timelines coexisting. Thus, you can't use the canon timeline argument for Dragonball due to the fact that the 'prime' timeline interacts with the others. Gundam on the other hand doesn't have that problem. Timelines don't overlap and interact with one another.

What happens in ANT doesn't suddenly cause those characters to jump into the TV version of Zeta and meddle with that chain of events, or Kamille not getting brain damage and beating the crap out of Judau for trying to steal the Gundam.

Regardless you continue to mistake official with canon. Thinking they mean the opposite. Also don't forget movies are used to correct any mistakes precised in the TV version. You just had Tomino say a few months ago he wanted to do movie version of G-reco to fix what he say as problems. If you don't think the movie version isn't the definitive version from that, I don't know what

>>13632644

> You keep intentionally misrepresenting canon and official

No, you do. Probably unintentionally, since I doubt you've ever looked it up and have just taken the meaning from social osmosis, but you've taken the wrong one. Don't take my word for it though. Let's try looking at some third parties to see what they say.

https://www.google.ie/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=definition%20canon
> the works of a particular author or artist that are recognized as genuine.

http://beta.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/canon
> the authentic works of a writer
> a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/canon
> any officially recognized set of sacred books.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/canon
> The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/canon
> The works of a particular author or artist that are recognized as genuine:

http://www.internetslang.com/CANON-meaning-definition.asp
> The definition of CANON is "Original, official"

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/canon
> all the writing, music etc that is generally accepted as the work of one writer, musician etc

That's just the first results off the first page of Google. Any dictionary you want to check will list the same thing. And notice what they all have in common? They all talk about it meaning the genuine or official works of a particular entity, normally a writer but including musicians and even companies. And none of them, not one, mentions anything about timelines, continuities or anything of the sort, because that's not what it means or has ever meant.

These aren't by the way, at all outdated. Almost all of them are updated on a regular basis to account for new meanings and do for instance list literally as now able to mean virtually or figuratively. So they're not using some kind of outdated definition either.

>>13635751
And that's putting aside that the Japanese don't actually talk about canon, they talk about official. Which can't be misconstrued to mean anything other than official.

> you can have multiple timelines within the same timeline

No, you can't. You can multiple universes or timelines that interact, but you cannot have a timeline within a timeline. But let's talk about some other examples then. Marvel comics perhaps? Where all the various alternate universes are considered canon.

Age of Apocalypse? Canon.
House of M? Canon.
Ultimate? Canon.

And so on. DC is the same. The entire DC multiverse is canon, which is why they keep having to reset it every decade or so, to try and make sense of it all and re-establish what is now recognized and official and what is just old

> Gundam on the other hand doesn't have that problem. Timelines don't overlap and don't interact with one another.

Turn-A would like to have a word with you.

> Also don't forget movies are used to correct any mistakes in the TV version.

No, they're not. Not uniformly at least. They are used to remove elements the director didn't want or like before he makes a further installment, and thus give the audience the new version of events BEFORE that new installment comes out. A New Translation came out 15 odd years after Char's Counterattack, which is the only thing it could be leading in to, so it is a massive exception to that rule which you refuse to acknowledge because it doesn't suit you. Not to mention that A New Translation doesn't set up events any better for Char's Counterattack than ZZ does, and in some ways is worse.

> You just had Tomino say a few months ago he wanted to do movie version of G-reco to fix what he say as problems.

He never said the same about the A New Translation movies though, and him saying it about G-Reco doesn't magically mean he meant the same about another project. If he had meant to say the same about another project, he'd have said so.

>>13635755

I'll remind you by the way that an actual Sunrise employee, Mark Simmons (using his toysdream account) has said that he finds the idea of the A New Translation movies over-writing ZZ in the proper timeline silly.

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16130
> nobody seriously seems to think that the Zeta Gundam "New Translation" movies are in any danger of overriding the Zeta TV series).

And again, you still have the fact that the A New Translation version of events is never listed in the official UC databooks and histories - it's always the ZZ version. It's because ZZ is official, and it's also the version of events that is supposed to lead in Char's Counterattack and Unicorn after it.

The fact that you seriously try to argue that Sunrise commissioned a high-budget OVA that took several years to complete and never intended it to be part of the accepted timeline of events is especially boggling, because it takes such an obtuse frame of mind to possibly think it's true.

>Remind me why people on 4chan unironically embrace Nazi stand-ins as the good guys again?
Remember where you are.

>>13635755

> The entire DC multiverse is canon, which is why they keep having to reset it every decade or so, to try and make sense of it all and re-establish what is now recognized and official and what is just old

Shit, forgot to add here that the stuff that is no longer compatible with whatever new origins DC editorial decides to go with for the latest series of retcons is relegated to a different Earth but remains part of the multiverse and thus canon. So when the first such event happened with Crisis on Infinite Earths, all the characters now had new origins and their old stories were relegated to the Earth-2 counterparts. Earth-2 is still the home to the golden age heroes and all those stories are still canon as part of the DC multiverse.

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>>13603818
>The thing that always bugs me about the "Zeon is America!" comparison is the major difference between what American leaders and Zeon leaders wanted out of their wars.
>Zabi-controlled Zeon wanted domination over the Earth Sphere, not just simply independence.
eh uh oh
>>>>>>>>>>>>implying

shitty thread
>armchair space politics
>[citation needed]'s
>Mark Simmons as source
>two autists flaming at each other over anime politics
>Fascism is baaad
>and other assorted manchildren retardations
sage goes in all fields

>>13635934
I forgot
>Zabi Zeon
it really is a shame such a good setting was wasted on robit animu, where the median fan just wants to watch big battle bots fisting each other. Shame on you Tomino

>>13600636
Two words.
Captain Zaku

>>13600636
>liking something because it is "good" or "bad"
Nah we like Zeon because they are cooler. Is there a better reason to like something?

>>13635751
Sounds like you're just proving my point with all those sources, thank you.

>>13635755
Yes you can, your post on dragonball proved you can have multiple timelines within the same continuity, otherwise future Trunks and Cell couldn't have ever existed. Yes they are, you don't go back and change something for shits and giggles. They were intentional changes meant to improve the story.

>>13635762
>Mark Simmons
>Opinion having weight
Pick one

I'll wait for Tomino over Mark any day. Also of course they can commission Unicorn because another good UNDERSTANDING and Fedwank will always sell some units. It's officially recognized as existing, canon? Not so much. You again fail to understand that there are differences there.

>>13636440

> post a half dozen sources saying canon means genuine/official/authentic and making no mention of timeline or anything like it
> conclusion: "those sources just prove that canon means timeline/continuity"

Wow, you really are a crazy person. I'd stick around for more, but really, there's no point. You'd argue the sky was rainbow colored with polka dots and refuse to believe your own eyes if it meant you didn't have to accept being wrong and there's really no point in debating anything with someone holding that attitude. I'm assuming you're going to crow about how you've won and perhaps post what you think is a cute or vaguely insulting reaction image in return, so have fun with that I guess.

>>13601367
And who dropped the colonies and killed all of their residents? Oh right, Zeon.

>>13603435
Imagrants moved to Canada during the space age to fill the gaps.

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>>13636702
Victory cannot be achieved without sacrifice.

>>13636656
Timelines and canon aren't mutually exclusive unless their are multiple accounting of the same events, you fail to understand that time and again.

>post what you think is a cute or vaguely insulting reaction image in return, so have fun with that I guess.
Don't mind if I do.

>>13637317

> The word doesn't mean what I said it does according to every definition available but it does actually mean what I say it does because it suits me and that's the important thing
> It doesn't matter that Japanese people never talk about canon and only official status because I know the canon of their stuff better than the people making it

I can't believe I was trying to engage in serious debate with you for several days.

>>13635934
Should've worded that better, yeah. I meant what the American leaders in 1776 wanted was different from what the Zabis in 0079 wanted, as the original comparison was colonial Americans seeking independence and Spacenoids seeking independence. I've got nothing against Zeek soldiers wanting to rid themselves free from oppressive Feddie control, but I do have a problem with Zeon's bigwigs nonchalantly killing civilians and violating treaties, then still trying to act as if they have the moral high ground. Although I honestly would love if I could get some sources stating that Washington and co. wanted control over all of Earth back when they were fighting the Brits with French help, because that would make history more fun.