this is required reading for my history class, My question

>>9979903
I feel like i didn't really understand why people were attracted to it until I read this.
That's the value for me at least.

File: you that cannot.jpg (186KB, 688x965px)

186KB, 688x965px

>>9979903
As long as capitalism exists, so will Marx.

Read it, it's actually good.

It's diagnostic not prescriptive.

>>9979971
It doesn't even diagnose correctly. The problems Marx attributed to capitalism aren't cause by capitalism they're caused by human nature. Communism fails because human's don't work the way marx wants them to.

>>9979997
>The problems Marx attributed to capitalism aren't cause by capitalism they're caused by human nature

Kek. Oh, you.

File: le spook man.png (33KB, 1152x720px)

33KB, 1152x720px

>>9979997
>human nature

>>9979903
Why wouldn't it? You seem to think that books are not made to be read.

>>9979903
it has more relevance as time goes on

you can't avoid the dialectics

>>9980026
teens really hate reading
source:/lit/

>does an opposing political theory that challenges my own have any modern relevance?

how about the first amendment, you dumb ass

>>9979997
oh snap i guess those 800 hundred-pages of in-depth analysis of the way capitalism works was just human nature. better throw Das Kapital in the trash


come back after actually reading Marx, you utter pleb

>>9980010
>the pareto distribution is a fault of capitalism

File: 432E866100000578-0-image-a-20_1502706382703.jpg (69KB, 634x423px)

69KB, 634x423px

>>9980045
the first amedment can be dangerous. It should be suspended until we deal with this alt right problem

>>9979997
human nature is a spook. it can change according to the times

>>9980052
you suck at implications

>>9980052
>pareto distribution

Kek x2.

>>9979903
As a historical document, yes.

>>9980052
Here's the problem: you actually have to understand Jordan Peterson's arguments if you want to pawn them off as your own. Yeah, I've heard him say that too. This is one of the main reasons this board is now worse than ever, people watch Peterson, refuse to read the texts that all of his arguments were stolen from, and then come on here and use what he said as if they're at all qualified. It's really sad. It's fun to watch, though, so carry on, friendo.

>>9979997
Not real communism dickweed.

>>9980080
Oh, he's actually being serious? He's just pinched that from Peterson?

Fuck, that's both depressing and hilarious.

>>9980057
>bunch of nerds larpers

>>9980047
you've wasted your time reading a worthless textbook
congratulations

This book barely even has anything to do with communism to be quite honest family.

>>9979957
It's probably one of the worst things you could read by Marx.

File: wilde1.jpg (277KB, 1140x722px)

277KB, 1140x722px

>>9979997
Fool.

>>9980188
>/lit/ - genre fiction

>>9979997

kek

>>9979903
Remember that The Communist Manifesto was a practical document written to outline the demands of a group that had recently occupied Paris and was fighting the French military. This is one thing I love about Marx, he wasn't just a theorist like Freud and Nietzsche. He was a man of action who led his comrades to revolution. Ultimately he made mistakes but it is a testament to his genius that he was willing to imagine such revolutionary ideas and put them into practice.

Those writings by Marx that survived best were his early philosophical texts on Alienation, commodity fetishism, and objectification though.

>>9979903
Very good question. The answer is simple.
As communism is, in theory, an ideal financial form. It remains desirable, even if we cannot have it.
You would try to get out of the shithole even if you knew you cannot.
The attempt by Marx and Engels to design such a form, despite its imperfectness may therefore be useful. As you search for possibilities to get out of the shithole.

File: IMG_0244.png (459KB, 633x632px) Image search: [Google]

459KB, 633x632px

>yet another discussion in which people take the Communist Manifesto seriously
I thought people just treated it like the Iliad at this point

The Manifesto was written for a specific time period we have since moved past from industrially; many of M & E's demands have since been met.

If you really want to learn Marxism, read Capital instead.

>>9980340
this guy gets it

What translation of Das Kapital should I get?

File: 1494223456262.jpg (46KB, 566x562px)

46KB, 566x562px

>>9979997
>human nature
>not bait

good shit

>>9980554
>not taking the Iliad seriously

File: 1482557237351.png (133KB, 1360x1336px)

133KB, 1360x1336px

>>9980057
>only free speech for me goy

>>9980697
Good check David Harvey's lecture series, he recommends one near the beginning of the first lecture.

>>9980709
>actions are words

>>9980057
>b8

>>9980010
What an insightful condescending post.

>>9980907
Did somebody imply the opposite?

>>9979903
That book will never lose relevence.

>>9981127
Most people who make the meme speech argument, yes.

>>9981200
Wait did I get that backwards? I won't make bourbon based excuses I'm just dumb.

File: porkie-humannature.png (91KB, 461x437px)

91KB, 461x437px

>human nature maymay
>socialism will never work because people are greedy, so let's rely on charity, because people are generous by nature

Oh, you

>>9981234
yo, what if, what if, Nechayev

File: AbolishingFreedomCover.jpg (86KB, 620x1000px) Image search: [Google]

86KB, 620x1000px

>>9981239
nihilism is gay and faggot.
COMIC FATALISM is for upright citizens.

>>9979997
Exactly so, wise words my friend. Shame /lit/ is filled with so many brainlets these days!

If any of you really think communism is the way of the future i recommend you check out /leftypol/ for your bondage needs.

>>9979997
this response is always successful in triggering marxists because even they know it's true

look at all of the not argument replies you got

File: IMG_0472.jpg (14KB, 250x136px)

14KB, 250x136px

>>9979997

Communism hasn't failed.
Stop being an illiterate /pol/cuck. Fucking hell, history is a joke.

>>9981234
Hey wassup my buddy what if instead of stalinism and exploitative capitalism there was a another way to a better future with most aspects of freedom and market society allowing for private ownership and enterprise while at the same effectively dealing with abuse from capitalism and having some aspects of socialism?

>>9979997
>human nature
Lame excuse; Man is something to be overcome.

>>9981407
benito pls

>>9981392
I think Social Ecology is the way forward, not Authoritarian Communism.

Libertarian Leftism will win, son

>>9980059
But always back to normally with the time.

>>9981407
So, mutualism? Ignoring the "private" "ownership" part, it maintains markets.

File: 7f9efce8ba1216e31fc43a6d2c019d9050156d7a78d26cd01d428f06c929b437.jpg (157KB, 585x883px)

157KB, 585x883px

>>9980047
Marx wrote Das Kapital after the manifesto kek

>>9979997
'human natoor' is a stupid argument. Capitalism isn't human nature either, we evolved to live in caves and spear-hunt mammoths. Civilisation has been a momentary detour from our true 'selves'. We are biologically designed to spend our time chasing animals over long distances. So I guess by that logic we should start from scratch? We clearly can't do any better than wiping our ass with clumps of leaves and dying at age 30 from a tiger attack.

>>9981508
>capitalism isn't natural

that's the point, it was stupid of marx to think history would go in a full circle and we'd end up back in the garden of eden but with machines instead of apple trees

File: GreatMomentsInLeftism.png (261KB, 1600x581px) Image search: [Google]

261KB, 1600x581px

>>9981475
Private Property is usurous jew bullshit.
Personal Property is fine.


But that guy is talking about Market Socialism, like with Josip Tito. And honestly, fine. Social Democracy is a reasonable middle ground.

>>9981516
You're like, inserting mythology into diamat. What are you doing? So machines will give us knowledge under communism? We'll exist in a metaphor? Your statement is bizarre.

>>9980059

>human nature is a spook. it can change according to the times

but has it?

>>9981508

>we evolved to live in caves and spear-hunt mammoths

we still hunt animals and we still consume animal meat

>wiping our ass with clumps of leaves and dying at age 30 from a tiger attack.

we still clean our asses and many people still die by tiger attacks.

>>9981516
Why does it have to be a 'full circle'? I didn't realise you could apply horseshoe theory to the development of mankind. I really don't think Marx said society would be anything like that in the first place. Where is it said that the future would be like the past where we all walk around naked except there's big machines everywhere? I just take issue with the belief that human nature apparently arbitrarily ends any possibility of a better future. I'm certain people said similar shit about the Feudal system. 'It's human nature to serve your lord!'

>>9981532
Wow nice dude you're so right!! The future is the exact same as the past! I don't see any difference between hunting food or buying it at a store!! Truly this is some incredible discourse.

>>9981520
>gmil
I've never seen anyone booty bother t-34 commanders as much as them. Thanks for reminding me to check it.

>>9981535
marxist historical prophecy begins with primitive communism and ends with industrial communism with a couple unpleasant stages in between

>>9981543
>Marx uses a metaphor to draw some parallels between early human society and industrial communist society
>150 years later
>'so basically what he meant is that it'll be like Adam and Eve and we'll all walk around naked but also in between the trees there'll be big robots that make our stuff and we can just poop wherever! There's a robot that cleans it up!'

>>9981552
Still better than deep ecology.

>>9981540
glad i could help

File: 1486019921615.jpg (21KB, 300x289px) Image search: [Google]

21KB, 300x289px

>>9979997
>human nature

>>9981552
the point was primitive communism only works before the fall which is to say before knowledge of good and evil, which is to say before "human nature" which is to say sin, technology can't undo the fall, well maybe in some sci-fi scenario, but marx wanted to be taken seriously as an economist not a sci-fi writer, you'd think on a literature board it wouldn't be that hard for people to get the point of biblical allusions

>>9979903
it's actually pretty shit but a decent intro and overview. Also every so-called "communism" that was tried was very far removed from classical marxism, which is what that book roughly peddles. Actually none were communism, in that they don't fit the criteria and that they never claimed to be, just different kinds of authoritarian socialism, sometimes not socialism at all. In all cases in the long run, they basically amounted to just stealing the socialist/commie aesthetic and solidarity for the purposes of instating, or at least, later retaining a state capitalist authoritarian regime.

Propaganda is easy when you can do the
>le workers r g8, i h8 piglets meme

Btw none of these states really failed, they industralised nations and made them pretty stronk. China wouldn't be where it is today with maoism and the cultural revolution. It'd be like africa at worst, and like indonesia at best. Instead it's set to be the primary world power, economically and politically.

>>9981661
>with
without*

>>9981407
So, Georgism?

>>9980697
The one my Marx.

Read something like value, price and profit or wage labour and capital before.

File: 1385322819927.jpg (176KB, 800x927px)

176KB, 800x927px

Why is "human nature" a meme?
Genuine question.

I've read some books about communism and the Soviet Union and in my, still rather uneducated opinion, communism keeps failing because humans will human.
The capitalism also turns sour because humans will human. As well as any other conceivable, human-controlled system.

Someone please redpill me but without just laughing at me.

>>9982454
You've pretty much got it. Get on the Tao train.

>>9982454
>Why is "human nature" a meme?
because human anture isn't fixed, it's created by society and it creates society itself
society and human nature are in a big feedback loop

>>9982550
That's an interesting thought. Do you have any books where I could read more about this?

>>9979903
Read communism in theory. Justly, they'd also require Gulag Archipelago, to read communism in practice.

>>9981418
That can't happen in a Millenarian way, as Marxists want

>>9982610
>implying it won't come with the Second Coming
Get woke

>>9982454
You've read books about the Soviet Union and you think it was a communist state?

>>9982550

>because human anture isn't fixed, it's created by society

if that were true totalitarian dictators would never exist since humans could be reprogrammed without oppression and violence.

>>9983803
A difficult question to answer, really. An attempt at communism or just a piece of shit with the guise of communism? And where do you draw the line?
That's why there are debates about this all over the internet.

>>9979903
It's is extremely relevant to your history class, as it's the text that defined the essential conflict of the 20th century.

>>9983824
there are limits, of course you're not gonna get people to voluntarily and happily give away their children to be slaves in a mine but that is an extreme, just like the totalitarianism you mention
just look at the acceptance of lgbt people today vs hundreds of years ago

>>9979997
this post is cool and good

>>9983853
thats not much a refutation of human nature. the wider acceptance of gays is mostly due to increased tolerance. of which it costs an individual almost nothing to do.

>>9983803
communists defended the soviet union up until it was no longer defensible. then it became not true communism.

>>9983876
>the wider acceptance of gays is mostly due to increased tolerance. of which it costs an individual almost nothing to do.
it costs him almost nothing according to you, because you live in the 21st century and weren't raised in the 1920s

>>9979903
pretty much like reading mein kampf

>>9980010
>>9980014
>>9980059
>>9980703
>>9981418
>>9981508
I love how triggered leftists are whenever you mention that maybe, just maybe, human nature might not be exactly compatible with their egalitarian utopia.
>but muh relationships with the means of production changes man wholly!
Yes, that is why nobody can relate to anything they read in books written before capitalism. It's not like human beings tend to behave in the same fucking ways everywhere since the times of Gilgamesh.
Blankslatism is dumb and it's wrong.

>>9983853
>just look at the acceptance of lgbt people today vs hundreds of years ago
Nothing changed in terms of intrinsic response, heterosexual men both homophilic and not, are disgusted by homosexual acts.

>>9984011
>Nothing changed in terms of intrinsic response, heterosexual men both homophilic and not, are disgusted by homosexual acts.
yes, but they're not getting arrested or beaten in broad daylight (well, it's frowned upon)

>>9984038
How is getting arrested or beaten "human nature".
Human nature is about instincts, emotions, tendencies and traits.

>>9984007
I love how humanaturefags think that anything good comes out of outer space probably and doesn't belong to human nature while rape and murder and theft and slavery and exploitation and suffocating your best friend in the woods because he kissed that pretty girl you liked behind your back and then had the balls to fuck her too is apparently written into our DNA by the hand of God.

>>9984038
They are getting arrested. They are called pedophiles. They are getting beaten, tho mostly thru bullying. Very high suicide rate.

>muh human nature
lol, what is this the twentieth century?

>>9984049
>I love how humanaturefags think that anything good comes out of outer space probably
No.

>>9984045
you're talking about animal instincts, not human nature

>>9984045
>How is getting arrested or beaten "human nature".

>Human nature refers to the distinguishing characteristics—including ways of thinking, feeling, and acting—which humans tend to have naturally.

>ways of thinking
>ways of acting

not arresting someone for being gay = new way of acting and thinking

>>9984059
Have we reached the point where leftists are denying that humans are animals?
Denying that men are men and women are women wasn't sufficient? Is there no end to your madness?

File: image.jpg (174KB, 736x1105px)

174KB, 736x1105px

>>9980542
They may have outlined their ideal society while acknowledging that it is indeed a pipe-dream. But they have lead people on, having them believe that it is attainable, creating a political movement that results in atrocity rather than a mere philosophical movement that may influence more people to become egalitarians. Their intentions may have been morally sound but it has only harmed the world.

>>9984068
First of all it's not new at all, it has already happened (and it had no relationship with the material conditions of societies, go figure), second point, are you seriously implying that anyone says that "arresting gays is human nature"? How the fuck can "arresting" someone be human nature?

Digging for potatoes is against human nature and that's why no one has ever done it. Ever.

...Or ever will...

>>9980542
>As communism is, in theory, an ideal financial form
No, it's isn't. There's no finance under communism. Moreover, it has serious problems in terms of organizing the economy.

>>9984092
t. strawman builder

>>9984096
Fuck you. I've got human nature (and history) on my side!

>>9984087
>How the fuck can "arresting" someone be human nature?
not the arrest itself but more the level of social censure for a behavior that is implied in the willingness of people to have that kind of law

whatever, people change, societies change, call it what you want
if we followed the "what about human nature" people we'd still be living in huts fucking our sisters

>>9984102
>if I build more strawmen, maybe radical environmentalism will become more relevant!
Nope, nobody takes it seriously.

>>9984107
HUUUUUMAN NATURE, pleb.

>>9983824
>if that were true totalitarian dictators would never exist since humans could be reprogrammed without oppression and violence.

It's remarkable that a statement as dumb as this has sustained replies for as long as it has.

>>9981508
>'human natoor'
Please stop trying to depict someone you disagree with as an illiterate retard. It only hurts you.

>>9984106
>whatever, people change, societies change, call it what you want
Gee I never thought about that. Now that you put it like that, doggone it, I'm convinced! That must mean there is no human nature and any society is as likely as any other to be sustainable.
It's hilarious how commies play the "human nature? Don't you think we've ever considered that" when apparently your support of blank-slate views of man is so thoroughly unsophisticated.

>>9981508
>Capitalism isn't human nature
Nobody says "capitalism is human nature". What people might say is that greed is human nature, since it's found in every single civilization ever, from ancient babylon to the contemporary neo-liberal world, which would hint at it not being dependent on the modes of production of a given society.
Greed might be a tiny bit of a problem if you organize your economy in ways that expose itself to freeloader problems and the like.

>>9984118
>your support of blank-slate views of man
I wouldn't say that
there certainly are things that are ingrained in us, we just disagree on what those things are

>>9984121
rape and murder are found in every civilization as well, doesn't mean we should nurture them

>>9984134
b-but human nature?

>>9979903
>history
>if it has any relevance

even if you hate communism you absolutely have to read this to understand the 20th century

>>9984134
No (where did i say that?) but if you were to structure your civilization in a way that works if and only if nobody rapes, I would suggest that maybe, just maybe, it's not going to work, because people are in all likelihood going to rape.
>>9984132
It's not a matter of disagreeing or agreeing or whatever. Every single trait is in part determined by genes, usually more than it is determined by shared environment.

>>9984147
>Every single trait is in part determined by genes, usually more than it is determined by shared environment.

Yeah, kids don't need socialisation or anything! It's bunk!

Take that Tabula Rasa brainlets!

>>9984150
>more strawmen
yawn

>>9984147
>but if you were to structure your civilization in a way that works if and only if nobody rapes, I would suggest that maybe, just maybe, it's not going to work
do you really think the left's great plan for society is ignoring greed and wishing really hard for things to turn out fine?
>It's not a matter of disagreeing or agreeing or whatever. Every single trait is in part determined by genes, usually more than it is determined by shared environment.
yes, it's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing, it's a matter of facts, and I believe you're wrong

>>9984157
What? I'm cooperating with you, we're a team - "we hunt in packs," and all that (well, not cooperating, our purely selfish interests temporarily align).

Wait, /lit/ still has Marxists?

>>9984164
>do you really think the left's great plan for society is ignoring greed and wishing really hard for things to turn out fine?
Yeah, pretty much, although you would phrase it more like of "if we change the people's relationship with the means of production and we abolish markets, people are going to radically change too!".
>and I believe you're wrong
That's irrelevant, you've got as much empirical data backing up the opposite of what I've said as creationists have for their ideas.

>>9984169
>well, not cooperating, our purely selfish interests temporarily align).
Despite your sarcasm being "yasss queen slayyy" tier, it would be semi-passable it it wasn't directed at yet another strawman.

>>9984183
>That's irrelevant, you've got as much empirical data backing up the opposite of what I've said as creationists have for their ideas.
yeah but I don't believe you
the "race realists2 say the same things, cite studies out of their ass etc. and they're all liars so why believe your interpretation
that's the shitty side of science - everyone thinks it's rock solid and everyone can find a study that confirms their own belief

>>9984183
Yeah, we all know hunter-gathers, peasants and office workers all live exactly the same sort of lifestyle. Duh! Human nature, pleb.

>>9984189
Strawman? Well, do you know what I have to say to that?

HUMANNATURE

Got ya!

>>9984068
A new way of acting does not mean there are no ways of acting caused by human nature. This is a false dichotomy.

>>9979903
>le the end of history narrative
So how is life in the mid 90s going for you?

>>9984205
Race is real though. Different ethnicities have different propensities for genetic ailments, respond differently to pharmaceuticals, have different average heights, bone densities, facial structures, etc.

>>9984205
>the "race realists2 say the same things, cite studies out of their ass etc. and they're all liars
Something tells me that you believe they're liards because you ideologically disapprove of what they're saying instead of actually knowing why they're wrong.
>everyone can find a study that confirms their own belief
It's not "a study". Literally every study on the matter show that on average, the variance of a trait in a first world society is due more to genes than shared environment.
>yeah but I don't believe you
As long as you're not in a position to enact policy based on your completely debunked views I don't care that much.

>>9984209
well which ways of acting are "human nature" and which ones aren't? can't figure it out? then human nature isn't an argument at all since we don't even know what it is.
you can't have it both ways.

>>9984221
I'm sure that's what all the studies you have listed in a bookmarks folder named "Race" say
and there's some guy with a bookmarks folder of the same name filled with studies that say the opposite

>>9984253
>and there's some guy with a bookmarks folder of the same name filled with studies that say the opposite
>totally not creationist-tier rhetoric g-guys

>>9984253
>well which ways of acting are "human nature" and which ones aren't? can't figure it out? then human nature isn't an argument at all since we don't even know what it is.
you can't have it both ways.

We do know what it is. It's obvious, duh!

(Guy's, I need back up taking down this absolute Rosa Luxemburg shill. Don't worry, I'll have your back later down the line, I promise. Robert Trivers and all that.)

>>9984253
Off the top of my head I'd say the cognitive biases are human nature.

>>9984262
you do understand that you're the creationist in that simile?

>>9984282
No, because I'm not the one that explicitly rejects an overwhelming scientific consensus based on countless empirical data.

>>9984282
>>9984292
>No, because I'm not the one that explicitly rejects an overwhelming scientific consensus based on countless empirical data.

YEAH! We have a thousand SCIENTIFIC papers that all say socialism is impossible because HUMAN NATURE.

Get it into your contradictory little head already.

>>9984300
Still not tired of strawmen I see.

>>9984253
>well which ways of acting are "human nature" and which ones aren't?
Human nature has to do with dispositions, tendencies, not acting per se. Acting is a product of those things, plus something else.

>>9984304
What? We do have those scientific papers, right?

...Right?

(Please say we do, my ego has a lot on the line here. Potential sexual partners are watching...)

>>9984312
No, we don't have scientific papers supporting the statments I didn't say but that you nonetheless attributed to me.
We do however have scientific papers about the variance of traits on average being more determined by genes than by shared enviromnet in first world countries, which is what I was talking about.

>>9984300
>YEAH! We have a thousand SCIENTIFIC papers that all say socialism is impossible because HUMAN NATURE.
>Get it into your contradictory little head already.
He's saying there's an "overwhelming scientific consensus based on countless empirical data" that race is real. He's not talking about Socialism. He's following your lead and you're trying to form a strawman.

File: habilis.jpg (30KB, 250x327px)

30KB, 250x327px

>>9984320
>>9984327
B-but, I thought we were a pack? Are you turning on me bros? I won't touch your women I swear, give me another chance!

>>9984335
You are pathetic

>>9984335
Anon, I'm afraid that you can't make me angry.

>>9979997
Sounds like you're regurgitating Jordan Peterson desu

>>9984338
H-human nature. That usually works. That usually solves all my problems...

HUMAN NATURE.

>>9979997
This is correct. People even while working with others, are selfish by nature. We just know that working with others, increases our chances for ourselves. Plus caparlism unlike red ideals, assume nothing about morality, and thus is one of the reasons it works.

>>9984327
No, I'm not, I haven't mentioned race at all.
What I was saying is repeated here >>9984320
As usual, when actual arguments and a demand for empirical data are made, marxists disappear. It doesn't happen as fast as when the subject is economics but it's still amazing.

File: IMG_1230.png (100KB, 944x518px)

100KB, 944x518px

>>9980014

File: krabbypatty.jpg (24KB, 480x360px)

24KB, 480x360px

>>9981418
>Man is something to be overcome

Not only is that fucking ridiculous to say in a short sentence like that, trying to unpack that idea is maybe the stupidest shit I've ever tried.

Let's do a quick attempt anyways.

>overcome

First let's define this. We can assume "overcome" is used in the sense here to describe surpassing an obstacle. Easy enough, but then you're immediately equating "Man" to be an obstacle. You need to properly argue that. And even if you properly argue that, you are likely going to reach a logical conclusion where you have to kill yourself, seeing as how you are good enough to acknowledge your flaws but too flawed enough to fix them on the scale you've set. So right off the bat we're at an impossible goal that ends in self-destruction. In anyone sane's estimation, self-destruction isn't useful. It doesn't create better quality of life. It's gay. You're gay. Marx is gay. Fuck you.

File: didnt-read-lol-chicken-gif[1].gif (1MB, 270x214px)

1MB, 270x214px

history of thought is interesting.
There a re probably better books on marxism.
when I read some marx I realised that /pol/ etc have no understanding of marxism and, thus, their critique is inadequate.

>143 replies

>>9984349
>Plus caparlism unlike red ideals, assume nothing about morality, and thus is one of the reasons it works.
I'm sure the child doing a 12-hour shift at a factory right now is thinking to itself "Thank God there are no moral assumptions in this wonderful system!"
And I'd be interested in hearing how the existence of private property isn't based on morality.

>>9984349
>We just know that working with others, increases our chances for ourselves.

You're mixing up gene behaviour with that of organisms. No one says, 'I'm going to get into a friendship/relationship because that will increase "my chances"' (whatever that means). Our genes produce cooperative organisms because cooperative species often do better in the living and procreating departments. This, to reiterate, is unconcious.

This means,
A) Our "genes" actually nudge us toward being cooperative
B) It gives the lie to the BS claim that people - simply because their genes are - are selfish

Go back and listen to Peterson, you've misunderstood quite a lot (and maybe he has too).

Better yet, read some Robert Trivers.

>>9984394
Factory work pays more than subsistence farming.

>>9984221
Race is real if you want to define race as the spatial distribution of various genotypes, but I think most people understand that word to represent broad categories of visually obvious phenotypes applicable on an individual basis so you're going to have a tough battle educating the public if you want that word to carry scientific meaning.

>>9984424
>Factory work pays more than subsistence farming

And?...

Take them away from HOOMUN NACHURE argument, and they're not so strong are they?

>>9979903
Just know that since much of the modern bourgeois is leftist, they focus their attention more on race and gender. In a real leftist uprising, Cletus and Tyrone would be showing up at the doors of the middle class and academia as well. Either way, just statists using force. Nothing new under the sun, right?

>>9984437
The fact as well that I don't want to spend my life fighting to survive in the dirt. People want more, if not we'd still be in the dirt.

>>9984394
How is it based on morality, it's based on the fact that if you take my stuff, I'll kill you.

Sucks to be that kid, but than again he builds products I can easily afford. Then again he lives in a sustainable economic system. Unlike red economies.

File: 2017-07-30 18_52_48-The Complete etchings of Goya (Art Ebook).pdf - Adobe Acrobat Reader DC.png (314KB, 408x591px)

314KB, 408x591px

>>9984519
We have passed the point of satire. Let's let this pile of tripe and unqualified hoomantuary die.

/sage

>>9984519
>How is it based on morality, it's based on the fact that if you take my stuff, I'll kill you.
LOL, the private property laws don't protect the thief, they protect the owner.
This is like saying that a guy didn't punch you in the face, you punched him in the fist with your head.

>>9984588
Because the thief is shit. Take someone else's shit don't be surprised if they kill you.

>>9984534
T.red

>it's muh human nature to be selfish
>charity exists

Gulagin's Island...

File: 1477820807994.gif (484KB, 500x231px)

484KB, 500x231px

>>9979997
It's funny because he's right but the only argument leftists can come up with is to greentext human nature.

>>9984687
>too scared to actually scroll above to find substantive refutations to the hoomun nachur meme

No one was going to reply with a serious response to that particular post. It wasn't a serious argument.

It just encapsulated all "because human nature" nonsense (we've been bombarded with since the brainlets found Peterson) so well and so succinctly. It was, and still is, funny.

>>9984708
>>hoomun nachur

Why are leftists so shit at memeing?

These are probably the same people who type shit like freeze peaches. Yall gotta step up your game.

>>9984708
>scroll up and look at sophistry that attempts to dispute established historical evidence.
No thanks.

>>9984007
I'm not a leftist, child.
No child, human nature doesn't exist. Stop memeing your STEMsperg nonsense.
> It's not like human beings tend to behave in the same fucking ways everywhere since the times of Gilgamesh.
Anachronistic nonsense. Why do you assume I am a Marxist, child?
At most, I am an ecologist; still, Man is something to be overcome. You don't seem to understand what this entails.

>>9984363
>its stupid because i don't understand it
Letzter Mensch
>Marx
Again, I'm not a Marxist, you illiterate.
>impossible goal
According to?
>Self-destruction
Of Man; a good thing.
>you need to properly argue that
Why?

>>9984007
Oh, and I'm not an egalitarian. Because I am not a humanist, I cannot be an egalitarian. Said thing is a mere thorn of humanism.

>>9984708
How is it refuted when your shit ideal fails every time?

>>9984923
>when your shit ideal fails every time
yeah, that 8-hour workday, the weekend, vacation time, work safety regulations, child labor banned etc have all been horrible failures

>>9984945
>goalpost moving

You're basically arguing in favor of reform against revolution.

>>9984999
it's almost like you're an autist who doesn't understand that leftist politics is a term broader than revolution

>does this book have any modern relevance?

Look at how a central banking system has inflated the US dollar and how that might have caused economic hardship especially with young americans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXAJ185zsjc

Another example is FDR's artificial pricing of gold and how that caused and prolonged the economic collapse.

https://townhall.com/columnists/benshapiro/2007/06/27/the-big-lie-about-the-great-depression-n1379888

>>9985195
of course, you have to keep in mind the most important fact here: ben shapiro is 5'4''

>>9985204

Fun fact, Karl Marx was 5'9. You may be onto something!!!!

>>9979903
Here's the rub, Marx says that communisim will come about by NATURAL CAUSES, the end product of capitalism will be communism, to him.

Then everyone who calls themselves a communist, pushes for communism, tries to install communism, like ALL OF THE PAST ATTEMPTS

Are actually against communism.

It will come, sit back and let things happen, stop getting your panties in a bunch.

So no, it has no modern relevance, except for using as a guide to see if the events needed for communism are coming about.

>>9979903
Read Kropotkin instead

>>9983853

>just look at the acceptance of lgbt people today vs hundreds of years ago

there are records of both homosexuality and zoophilia taking place in pretty much all ancient civilizations.

All idealists are trash

>>9979903
>book that has been extremely important all over the world for the past 150 years is assigned in history class
>HISTORY CLASS
>Huurr how it is even relevant??
hang yourself

>>9979997
>Bowing to human nature
That's not how you achieve Gnosis

File: 1500421451412.jpg (21KB, 319x413px)

21KB, 319x413px

>>9979903
>modern relevance
It shouldn't. But there's an underlying emotional component that critics forget. It has the ability to empower the disenfranchised. This is a phenomenon that's seriously overlooked.
From an observable stand point, we've seen countries thrive where market forces have been the mechanism for price. Innovation is high, and even the people at the bottom have access to health care that 200 years ago wasn't even available to anyone.
Countries without a market have failed. They have had to establish government bureaus to determine how much and what the country needs. Take the USSR for example. It's true that a lot of people in bureaus were corrupted by this tremendous amount of power. But a lot weren't. And a lot of these people took their jobs seriously. In spite of their good nature these people failed at their jobs because the problem was always that determining what millions of people need and want to consume is a job that cannot be conducted by even a handful of the smartest and most diligent people in your country. It's too big of a task.
This is where communism has always, and will always fail.
However, the reason that it has stuck with us is because it's NOT a biological human trait to constantly look inwards to seek answers as to why the world around you isn't perfect. And this is what I say to anybody: Have a good look at the people who still take communism seriously. We see a serious propensity towards ill-health, bad posture and absurd thinking styles. These are the people that are at the bottom of societies barrels. They have never succeeded, nor will succeed at anything. They were the person at school that was not gifted at sport nor academia. They are below average and have a chip on their shoulder to show for it. They've been presented with a powerful piece of work that tells them that it isn't their fault they suck, and that if they aim to install communism their internal troubles will be solved.
And that's why this ideology has stuck with us for so bloody long.

File: 1434493043867.gif (2MB, 383x204px)

2MB, 383x204px

>>9984755
>>9984923
>claims there is no refutation to the human nature meme
>refuse to scroll up to read refutations pointed out to them, like >>9984406

Better not endanger all that valuable Peterson programming, huh lads?

>>9986093
>>9986109
How did you post the same image twice

>>9986116
I guess it's just in my nature.

>>9985602
yeah, it's almost like society changed

>>9980200
Where is this from?

>>9986109
What refutation? Considering that your ideal has failed every time, seems to be quite the evidence for human nature, among other factors. Face it, red ideals are tantamount to failure and due to their afffects, evil.

File: 1502403545878.png (6KB, 253x199px)

6KB, 253x199px

>>9984803
subtle bait

>>9979903
It's extremely relevant when taking into consideration the material execution of the dialectical method, although this probably isn't the best book to learn about that. Regardless, I'm pretty sure you can make connections between what is described in the manifesto and what is happening in the world atm.

>academia is infiltrated with marxists
>but also (see this >>9985955 ):
>only losers and outcasts are marxists
right wing logic, ladies and gentlemen

>>9986622
Harry Potter and the deathly hallows.

>>9985955

does isis have a hotline where you can report this man? I'm sure we can have a mutual arrangement here

File: main-qimg-4216ccc86c8d8d2220c51e3e6a984684.png (94KB, 369x364px) Image search: [Google]

94KB, 369x364px

isn't this that book that killed millions?

>>9984790
Please be bait.

File: 1504276297707.jpg (111KB, 1024x1022px)

111KB, 1024x1022px

>>9980010
>>9980014
>>9980047
>>9980059
>>9980082
>>9980200
>>9980330
>>9980703
>>9981392
>>9981399
>>9981508
>>9981640
>>9985812
Why are modern communists so confident in the infallibility of their belief systems, when every attempt to implement their ideal society on a large scale has morphed into the exact opposite of what they intended?

What is the cause of this spectacular arrogance and blindness to reality, so extreme that it causes them to attribute basic human failings to 'Capital' and nothing else?

I genuinely don't understand how people who are clearly intelligent enough to understand complex philosophical texts can nonetheless be so idiotic.

>>9988629
Yeah fuck it, let's just embrace neoliberalism, that's working great.

The status quo is failing. We can look to Socialism for a path to the future, learning from previous attempts, or we can slide back into feudalism once automation really kicks off.

>>9988629
Human nature, bros!

>>9983879
>communists defended the soviet union up until it was no longer defensible
literally read any leftcommunism

>>9983879
>communists defended the soviet union up until it was no longer defensible
They tried to defend it after this also.

File: LElFsQbgD_Jekh-DIjxYgBJa9C1Ef_TQiNj7S14lMFc.jpg (63KB, 346x767px) Image search: [Google]

63KB, 346x767px

>>9988756

File: 12.jpg (57KB, 720x465px)

57KB, 720x465px

>>9988672
You could always live deliciously.

File: 1440640346056.png (94KB, 240x361px)

94KB, 240x361px

>>9988629
As Bezmenov said, these guys are useful idiots and all the proof in the world will not change their mind. 99% of these posters are underage b& while the other 1% have built their lives around Marxism, they've invested so much time and money into it that they cannot allow themselves to be proved wrong.

File: smug wilde.jpg (63KB, 500x344px)

63KB, 500x344px

>>9986622
The Soul of Man Under Socialism

>>9979903
you're not supposed to believe everything you read ya little mong

>>9985208
>>9985204
lenin was 5'4

File: 1504235376604.jpg (9KB, 300x201px)

9KB, 300x201px

>>9987448
>doesn't refute point about the market
>infers that all academics are highly intelligent
Lol
I reckon you're about 20 years old and haven't moved out of home yet.
Here's a little tip, some "academics" (teachers) are only there because that's all they can do with their lives. They're not good at teaching, they're not stimulating, they're not anything. They just went through the university motions and went into teaching because that was it for them.

File: serveimage.jpg (161KB, 900x1067px)

161KB, 900x1067px

>>9980014
Stirner is literally the first sjw if you think about it. Must be why so many degenerates love him.

>>9989127
My physics prof owns two separate businesses so you're wrong.

>>9989144
SJWs ask the 'state', the 'people' and the 'police' to bestow supremacy of their feelings above all else. They try to appeal to others to give them rights they never had in the first place. A true egoist simply uses their power to make their feelings matter. They take no consideration of what these authorities can 'give', to be given rights means that you don't own them and they can be taken back.

>>9989169
I never said all teachers you moron lol
Man you're dumb

>>9980340
praxis and the whole idea of action over inaction/reflection is one of the most destructive notions ever concocted

>>9980554
stop shiling you jew-loving goy

>>9982550
>because human anture isn't fixed
when has it ever changed?
also, something that isn't fixed can't be called human *nature*

>>9988629
Don't lump my homeboy Willem Dafoe in with these pinko faggots.

>>9989269
https://youtu.be/Qi4dyFp2FBw

>>9989178
says the guy who repeats insults.

File: why gommunism sucks.png (31KB, 1234x246px)

31KB, 1234x246px

communism is a failed meme. Thats the only reason you should read it, just to shift through the ashes.

>>9980554

they do. No one, other than a handful of stupid virgins whos little bird brains are impressed by all the lingo, take this shit seriously

>>9980045
Where in the First Amendment does it say you're not allowed to call something irrelevant?

>>9984790
>No child, human nature doesn't exist.

I was gonna argue in this thread and then I read this one line and decided I was not prepared to argue against this level of self-delusion.

If you want to understand history it's pretty vital. You aren't going to understand what big players like Lenin were talking about if you don't have the basics of Marxism under your belt. The Manifesto is a good intro to certain ideas, like class analysis and historical materialism, but obviously there's far more to Marx.

>communism has failed

There's still several nations with communist leaderships, one of which has the largest population in the world. To preempt the argument that they've "abandoned communism", I'd argue that the "free association of producers" Marx referred to as "communism" never existed in China and that they're currently undergoing a period similar to the Soviet NEP. Cuba and North Korea are still centrally planned economies (which I also don't think is communist but hey y'all're gonna hit me with memes here aren't ya), and Cuba's experiments with decreasing state power are a move toward a genuine socialism through the creation of a cooperative sector. Xi Xinping is even saying that the CCP needs to reorient itself around Marx, and Jack Ma of Alibaba is saying that big data can help create an efficient planned economy.

Marx's economic analysis has informed a lot of non-Marxist economists, including arch pro-capitalist Joseph Schumpeter, and plenty of his ideas have been incorporated into more "mainstream" economics through other names, like the industrial reserve army becoming the "natural rate of unemployment". If economics has moved past Marx that's because modern economics and Marxist political economy are two different projects. And that hasn't stopped heterodox economists from continuing their appreciation of Marx anyway.

>>9989445
The only halfway truthful statement in that screencap is that Leninism is elitist. Try engaging with Marx directly rather than trusting what randos on 4chan tell you about him.

>>9979903
>now that communism has failed

thats not how history works

>>9979997
>neoliberalism is human nature

i want brainlets to go back to /pol/

>>9982454
It's a meme because the lefties of /lit/ can't take the fact that communism doesn't work

>>9983995
>pretty much like reading mein kampf

have you read either?

File: 1504582285786.jpg (178KB, 804x743px) Image search: [Google]

178KB, 804x743px

>>9982454
Human nature is a meme because we know so little about human nature apart from basic biological functions.

File: owl thing.jpg (88KB, 681x960px)

88KB, 681x960px

>>9979903
>now that communism has failed does this book have any modern relevance?

Short answer: no.

Long answer: if you're interested in the history of western thought you need to read Marx in order to understand where a lot of 20th century thinkers drew their inspiration from, ultimately most of the post-Marxist intellectuals ended up in cul-de-sacs and many of took their own lives like Debord, paid with their lives for their lifestyles like Foucault or created conceptual currents that were either stillborn or infertile. For an analysis of modern politics reading Marx is entirely pointless unless you're studying popular social movements (read: fashionable idiocy).

marked for deletion (old) when