Catholic Literature General

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>>9954856
>I saw a chapel all of gold
>That none did dare to enter in
>And many weeping stood without
>Weeping mourning worshipping

>I saw a serpent rise between
>The white pillars of the door
>And he forcd & forcd & forcd
>Down the golden hinges tore

>And along the pavement sweet
>Set with pearls and rubies bright
>All his slimy length he drew
>Till upon the altar white

>Vomiting his poison out
>On the bread & on the wine
>So I turnd into a sty
>And laid me down among the swine

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Are you reading it yet? It just came out last week or so.

>kike worship
>slave morality
no thanks

>>9955058

What does it mean to be a slave?

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"So I went in to ask him why."

>>9955109
Buy a dictionary, anon.

>>9955058
>not learning upon the mistakes of other people
>not heeding the advice of far more experience
>not recognizing the shear ubiquity of God
>not then realizing your own mortality and insignificance in the face of such inordinance
>not THEN realizing that despite being an insignificant nothing, God still loves you

>>9954969
>how to know an anon isn't catholic

KJV hasn't been read by Catholics since....forever, basically. Because 99.9% of printed KJVs don't include the Apocrypha and thus cannot possibly be given an imprimatur. Douay-Rheims would be better.

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>>9955174
Take the iron pill. Stave off iron deficiency.

>>9955147

Do you want to use the dictionary definition then? Then explain to me how Christianity leads to the mentality of being property.

>>9954948
As a Catholic, I really wish my kin would stop claiming to have proved God. It just makes us look stupid.

>>9955262

Oh fuck off

whats the most redpill demaistre shit thats available in english, i found burke kinda boring, but demaistre has potential for dankness

>>9954856
Why do Catholics pray to Mary when you're supposed to pray to Jesus?

>>9955269
because europeans have always worshipped the mother goddess since even before the aryans come into the continent

>>9955227
>turn the other cheek
>mercy
>be a sheep
>other general weakness
Have you even read the Bible? Also, read Nietzsche.

>>9955184
Don't forget the sacrilege of changing word, like actually replacing the words on the holy bible like switching "poisoner" for "witch".

>>9955269
Silly, anon! Jesus was a good Jewish boy who always listened to his mama. Just because they're dead now, why should that've changed? They talk to Mama Mary, Mother of God so that she can help them by bending his ear and hop to helping them pronto.

>>9955262
To be fair those are indeed proofs of God. Aquinas alone has done it.

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>>9954856
>tfw no cute prudent Christian gf
Why are almost all Christian girls retarded, ugly or both?

>>9955058
You're funny. As if the church didn't fucking slaughter pagans into near-total extinction.
For that fact the atheists call Christianity too harsh, and for its moral principles you odinist LARPers call Christianity too weak. Could it possibly be that you, as well as the atheists, have a flawed view of the whole concept of Christianity.
The Catholic church is supersessionist anyway. Supersessionism means Christ literally destroyed judaism and as such the Community of Believers replaces the jews as the chosen people. Hence the pope refuses and will continue refusing to acknowledge israel as a nation-state. Because what Christ rejects, the west rejects, and what did Christ reject more than judaism. The church knows this, the pope knows this. Your cries of "kike worship" are infantile and banal and you only parrot what others tell you because you don't have the nerve to understand or make a serious study of religion. And you wanna come here and call me a slave? If this were 750AD my people would be slitting your throat.

>>9956392
What the fuck are you talking about? The Pope loves mohammedans and christkillers and doesn't miss any opportunity to say so. Oh and remember how the liturgy was changed to expunge anything that offended Jews at Vatican II? Catholics are delusional.

>>9956392
Is this a joke? The Pope's even promoted the dual Covenant view, he says Jews don't need to be converted.

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>>9956392
>You're funny.
Thanks.

>As if the church didn't fucking slaughter pagans into near-total extinction.
I don't deny it did, within Europe. It had the political upper hand. They would have to have been fucking idiots not to.

>odinist LARPers
Oh, so Odinism automatically equates to LARPing now. Get over yourself. As much as there may be LARPing going on from muh pagans there's just as much, if not more, with deus vulters and cafeteria Catholics.

>If this were 750AD my people would be slitting your throat.
And there would be throat slitting right back, I can assure you.

>>9956410
>>9956448
This. Also, pic related.

>>9954948
Anyone got the epub? Please buy it and share. I purchased Scholastic Metaphysics and By Man Shall his Blood be Shed so it's okay to pirate now.
>>9955262
It's a dogma for Catholics to see God as a truth of natural reason and provable.
"1785 [ The fact of positive supernatural revelation] .The same Holy Mother Church holds and teaches thatGod, the beginning and end of all things, can be known with certitude by the natural light of human reason from created things; "for the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made" [ Rom 1:20]; nevertheless, it has pleased His wisdom and goodness to reveal Himself and the eternal decrees of His will to the human race in another and supernatural way, as the Apostle says: "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all, in these days hath spoken to us by His Son" [ Heb.1:1 f; can. 1]. "
You are professing borderline heresy.
>>9956448
It would also be heresy.
"714 It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. "

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>>9955470
>christianity begets weak servile men
>christians conquered the entire world barring china, japan, and iran
pick one

Christ is the lamb and the lion the asinine reductions in his character don't do anyone favors

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>>9956388
>tfw you are in the honours program at a conservative Catholic university and almost all the other honours students are smart qt Christian girls

Not gonna lie, it feels pretty good

>>9956388
go to polish services. or asian ones if you're into that, but some of them do longer services. polish might be slightly longer than the english, but lots of silent wife material.

>>9956657
Or just FSSP/SSPX/IOCK

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>>9956648
>christianity serves the jews
>christians welcome mudslimes
pick two

Christ was a weakling. One man amongst many Middle-Eastern "prophets". Take the iron pill.

>>9956975
Why is it that protestant countries are the most cucked then and pagans are literally nonexistent?

>>9956986
Some Protestant denominations have succumbed to materialism. Catholic dogma makes it outwardly more difficult to do so. Pagans, while small in number in Europe at present, are not nonexistent.

>>9955470

How do any of those things make you a slave?

>>9956479
>Anyone got the epub? Please buy it and share. I purchased Scholastic Metaphysics and By Man Shall his Blood be Shed so it's okay to pirate now.

I don't think its been released as an e-book yet

>>9957203
If you subscribe to an erratic, unsystematic philosophy of a failure that's filled with both bile and nonsense it does.
>>9957235
Pretty sure it has, saw it on his blog because it was sold out before release.

>>9955147
>Refers to it as a slave morality
>Proceeds to tell Anon to read a dictionary to learn the definition of a word, rather than to explain his own personal definition and view of the word 'slave'
okay.jpg

>>9955470
>read Nietzsche.
That's some smol brain shit not even memeing that dude was the biggest idiot of his time, I would say of all time but seeing as you're right here before my very eyes that wouldn't be fair. How about you read kierkegaard instead? Or the summa? The latter makes nietzsche look like your average /r/atheism poster.

>>9956410
First off, you're going to have to prove that to me. If you're talking about the three lines in the mass about lifting the veil of darkness from the eyes of the jews etc then I don't see the big deal, also it was allowed by benedict for those who requested to do it.
Secondly, and more broadly, we don't need to be openly anti-semite. It's part of nostra aetate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostra_aetate
You see the church has taken great efforts to spell out the relationship between the church and the jews formally using informed judgement and reason. We don't do kneejerk reactions like you do. If anything that would hurt the reputation of the church. The church hates judaism, not jews plural.

>>9956448
>The Pope's even promoted the dual Covenant view
No I don't think he has, JPII said that the "Old Covenant" was not "revoked" but he never wrote a bull on it or anything. It was just ecumenism and trying to soften the rather harsh anti-jew aspects of the church which, up until the holocaust had not caused a problem but which in the post-war world were causing the church to be associated with nazis.
The dual-covenant view is simply not doctrine, supersessionism is.

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>>9956388
>tfw the few girls in my church that are my age are beautiful, but retarded

>tfw no catholic gf

catholicism moar like gaytholicism xD

>>9958177
Yup, Nostra Aetate fucked up Catholic continuity of at least practice real bad. They removed tee adjectives that were well deserved from prayers for the conversions of Jews. The Nazi Germany that had nothing to do with Catholicism shaped the most problematic event since the Reformation.

>materialism is empty and unsatisfying
>not raised religious, so all belief systems seem foreign and incomprehensible

Other than explicitly religious works, what makes a book catholic?

>>9958909
Explicitly Catholic themes.

>>9955109
To have one's being be in obligation to others

>>9958951

That doesn't work because then everybody is a slave. Parents have obligations to their children and children have obligations to their parents but they can't both be slaves.

>>9955470
>He thinks mercy is a weakness

Read Kierkegaard or John Howard Yoder

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>devoting yourself to a god instead of becoming one

>>9960869
Pretty good actually

>>9958059
>can't into greatest philosopher of the 19th C, excluding idealists
>recommends memegaard
Aquinas was of great importance as a philosopher, though.

>>9959507
>thinks mercy isn't weakness
>doesn't know or has forgotten about julius caesar
>memegaard again
>also some guy who when searched for turns up with sexual abuse

>>9960983
having mercy explicitly means having power

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>>9961091
You take that back.

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>>9956388
>Why are almost all Christian girls retarded, ugly or both?

haven't heard a bigger nonsense in my entire life

>>9960869
pretty weak bait actually

>le popeus est deus hehe Catholics destroyed

>>9961274
how is it bait you up tight sperg its just a meme, its taking the piss

>>9961270
she's probably retarded

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>>9961287
>tfw no retard gf

>>9961287
she's probably not tho

>>9961270
There's this one really cute girl at the TLM here, literally the only woman there that's not taken, but I'm too autistic to initiate contact feels bad man.

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>catholicism general
>devolves into >tfw no gf sperging

>>9961499
Because us Catholics want quality Catholic gfs that are not easy to find given our autism.
Much more comfy that Orthodox shills vs Catholic trads.

>>9958909
Explicit, or strog ties to the themes, mindset and faith of the Catholic Church.
For the mindset to cure materialism just start reading 20th and 21st century thomism, it's written for the modern man with a pre modern mindset.

Reminder for all you cucks to tend First Friday!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Friday_Devotion

>tfw no matter what state in my life I end up dying in, I die with the sacraments anyway because the lord promises me so - no exceptions.

Love you Catholic posters. Wish I could be drawn to faith honestly.

>>9954856
I recently bought a commented bible edition.
Now my question: In what order should i read it? Some people on /lit/ told me that one should read the new testament first, and then read the old testament through the lense of the new one. Or should i read the bible chronologically?

>>9962901
You have to take the first step friend. If you open your heart to God you will be surprised how easily belief will come.

>>9962965
Chronology is good.
>>9962901
Go to Tridentine mass.

Sorry to be chiming in on a Christian thread as a complete religious pleb, but is there a proper Catholic Bible that employs language that is at least trying to sound eternal such as the beautiful language found in the King James Bible?

>>9954948
is it good?

Is being an atheist technically heretical, according to the Catholic Church?

>>9964035
no because catholics aren't muslims
we don't need to make scripture "sound eternal" because we already believe that it is the eternal truth

>>9964055
No.
If I'm not mistaken, heretics can only be other Catholics committing a heresy. Maybe if you were a former Catholic, now atheist, insisting that you can still be Catholic without believing in any of its mystical properties and adapting it as nothing more than a moral code or philosophy kind of like some Buddhists do.

>>9964079
Thanks for the answer, pal

>>9960869
Infinite meme works.

>>9964035

>such as the beautiful language found in the King James Bible?

I swear I could translate the Twilight series into Early Modern English and call it a literary masterpiece and you people would believe me.

>>9964185
You just resent it because the proddies did it.

>>9964200

No I don't like it because the language is archaic and it leads to a lot of misunderstandings, especially with non-Christians. I despise the fact that I need to constantly explain to people that unicorns and cockatrices do not in fact exist in the bible, that's it just a relic of centuries old translation based on even older English translation, the Coverdale Bible.

>>9962997
I've tried this before. Nothing came easily or really at all friend.
>>9963076
Tell me more since I've never been Catholic before.

>>9964035
It's called the Latin Vulgate.

>>9964055
It would make you a pagan in the heretic/jew/schismatic/pagan division from the council of Florence posted here >>9956479

>>9964035
either >>9965067 or the douay-rheims bible (a translation of the latin vulgate) it reads like the kjv.

>>9964935
It's the mass Catholics used to have, until the end of the second Vatican Council. It's a sublime ritual of solemn beauty, the most focused and contemplative experience a man can readily have and it got replaced by a loud, man focused l, secularised and most importantly dreadfully boring Novus Ordo people now attend and think when they think mass. It used to be in Latin or in some places old Slavonic with very fine writing. A lot of repenting in it as well. I used to go to mass because it was a duty, I never enjoyed it, but the Tridentine mass is something else, it moves me more than the best of literature and it was instrumental in helping me quit porn.

>>9965303
Who are some people now who still promote/believe in this form of Mass?

>>9965398
In the past few years, just about every non heterorthodox/heretical Catholic journal in the English language, First Things, Catholic Herald, Catholic World Report etc. They'll often have excellent articles and there's a number of useful blogs like Rorate Caeli and Liturgy guy.

>>9955268
Harvard law prof Adrian Vermuele suggested "On the Generative Principles of Constitutions" in a First Things article a few weeks back (he also suggested Carl Schmitt's "Roman Catholicism and Political Form" which is excellent).

>>9956975
>christianity serves the jews
Have you read the book of Revelation? In the end times, the antichrist will try to fool even the elect.
We can provide evidence for the wicked and blasphemous nature of jews. Only a fool can believe in their 'chosen' myth afterwards.

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>>9954856
where can i find Savonarola's "Triumph of the Cross" e-book?

>>9966200
And John Henry Newman, but I don't remember which book.

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>>9954856
sorry, I'm not into fantasy novels

>believing in literal fairy tales

*tips mitre*

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>>9966701
This is a catholic thread, we tip papal tiaras

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How do Catholics justify the idolatry of the Rosary and Christmas Tree? How do Catholics justify supplanting the original feast days prescribed by God as an ordinance for ever? How do Catholics justify changing the Sabbath day to Sunday in ~260AD (Prophecy of this happening in Daniel 7) Read Jeremiah chapter 10, chapter 44, and get back to me.

>>9956388
>Why are almost all Christian girls retarded, ugly or both?
Because all Christians are.

>>9960869
Lmao at the protestant notion of "saved by faith alone." I started reading the Bible a few months ago, having grown up protestant, and immediately realized how blasphemous this doctrine is.

>>9966933

Define idolatry. What is an idol?

>>9957727
>If you subscribe to an erratic, unsystematic philosophy

uhhh you mean like Nietzsche? lol

>>9966933
>dolatry of the Christmas Tree
>not knowing the Christmas tree is a commercial tool and has nothing to do with the Church

please kill yourself, tonight.

>>9960983
You are either profoundly retarded or a teenager.

>>9966983
Here there was no such thing as a Christmass tree untill like the 1970s, pretty sure we got it form the protestant America.
>>9966933
How is rosary idolotary?
Jesus rose on the Sunday, 3rd day after friday as you should probably know. It was celebrated on sundays since the first christian times, honestly, what are you a JW or some other retarded shit?

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>>9966933
>idolatry of the Rosary

Mary literally gave Saint Dominic the Rosary on behalf of her Son. Why don't you go bitch to the Blessed Virgin about it? Maybe she'll hear you. Maybe she'll pay you a visit.

>>9966995
No, that's just you. Stop projecting. Also, kys.

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>>9966997
How do you fit 3 days (3 days and 3 nights as it is written) between Friday evening and Sunday morning? Read the verses I gave you and read some history.

>>9967127
The Rosary prayer literally has you say "Hail Holy Queen of Heaven," so go read Jeremiah 44 as I told you to and come back to me.

If only these Catholics could read the actual fucking Bible instead of gay Hippo documents. I don't follow after any sect; I'm a lone follower and the pagan bullshit in Catholicism is seen by even non-Christians.

>>9967281
>I'm a lone follower

Milton was a moron and so are you.

>>9956657
>polish
>cute
pick one

>>9956883
>girls
>sspx
pick one

>>9960869
8ch's /christ/ board is full of fucking idiots. it's nearly as bad as catholicanswers. God bless them but whew, don't visit if you have an iq over 80.

>>9954856
This image is the cringiest, and without a doubt most Reddit thing I've ever seen. You just know the artist was a fat, greasy neckbeard incel who would've been gassed as an undesirable in the Fourth Reich solely for being an ugly NEET but has a delusion that he is above the prancing transvestite in the pride parade. I am glad incels and archaic Christians are crossing over via their contempt for perceived degeneracy, it makes them even more cartoonish.

>>9967281
Friday evening
Saturday
Sunday is the third day
Very easy if you are not retarded.
Not sure where you get that hail holy queen, where is it in the rosary?
>>9967290
There are some, not too many, but eh, what can you do?

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>>9967530
Still not getting 3 days and 3 nights out of Friday evening to Sunday morning. Let me spell this out for you. Friday evening -> Saturday -> Saturday night -> Sunday Morning...

In the year 321 A.D., Constantine decreed, "On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed" (Codex Justinianus lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, p. 380, note 1).

Step 8 you dummy:
http://www.dummies.com/religion/christianity/catholicism/how-to-pray-the-rosary/

Just admit you're fucking wrong. Humble yourself.

>>9967127
>>9966933
>>9954856
not him but general question.
I consider myself a catholic altough i was raised in a more protestant tradition. My parents never visited church and i have little touch with it. So here is my question for you:
>Does the vatican church condem the crusades and condem the killings in the name of god during that time?
I think thats a really important subject. If the church does condem it isnt it also condeming its own past and all the promises and faith it gave to european christian back in the middleages? If the church chooses not to condem it, isnt it still advocating a just war in the case of an occupied jerusalem? That would mean that a just war is possible.
I have not found an absolut answer on the internet and i think it often comes down to a personal opinion.
>deus vult! am i right alt right xdddd kek
What is the offical interpretation and what do you fellow catholics think about the matter?

>>9968079
Yes, where does it say what you said it does in the rosary?
And "on the third day" is not "after 3 days and nights"
Why would I admit I'm wrong to a retarded heretic online when I have 2k years of constant theology behind me?

>>9956388
>all the cute girls at my church are in committed relationships with white-bread Chads
Good for them I guess but reeeeee

>>9968089
The Church has no magisterial document on the Crusades as such to my knowlede and there is no official position to be taken up on the authoriry of the magisterium or the Fathers.
The Just War theory is as such official and ireversable.
And again, there's no official position on the alt right or politics in general these days.

Lately I've been listening to a lot of Gregorian chanting, Ensemble Organum's recordings are very nice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp2dfU0cRMs
The part at 3:50 gives me chills. As someone super into music, there's something very powerful about chanting, it's like a study of harmony and melody in one of the purest forms possible.
>>9968089
They've never condemned the crusades and never will. As questionable as some of Francis's positions are, to condemn a holy war is tantamount to admitting the Muslims' conquest was fine and dandy
>deus vult! am i right alt right xdddd kek
This shit kills me. Just look at the comments on any chant video, it'll be Pepe and happy merchant avatars talking about le epic crusades and white nationalism. The amount of larping is what made me finally realize the "alt-right" is a bunch of clowns.
Captcha: 17 Francisco

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Since there are a lot of guys here who seem to know their shit:
Is this going to be too esoteric for a pretty much beginner? The concept really interests me but it's always listed as "advanced" on the Catholic lit infographs I've seen

>>9968202
>Ensemble Organum
I like Sequentia a lot, give them a go. Canticles of Exctasy are amazing. Also no larping in the comments because it's too obscure for pol plebs.

>>9968128
by mocking the alt right i just wanted to avoid people commenting unrelated hate on muslims.
I have read some interviews with (in my case german catholic fathers) apologising for the crusades by every religion thinkable. I know that there are similar positions by other fathers and especially the current pope.
I just wanted to know if that was the offical position (in case there would have been one)
I just think that apologising for the crusades is not that different from questioning the just war theory.

>>9968215
I listened to one of theirs, it might have been Canticles. I remember it was a female choir, which I didn't like as much as EO's male one, but I'll give them another shot.

>>9968212
Yup, it's too esoteric to people who aren't deeply invested in mysticism already. Go for Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross first.
>>9968217
Fathers aren't fathers. Aquinas isn't on same level of authority as a probably heretical or at least lukewarm German priest trying to suck up to the contemporary world.
And it would be very hard, going from the Catholic philosophy to condemn the crusades as something unjust as such, especially since they liberated Spain and christend half of Eastern Europe. Even the more famous Middle Eastern ones were in principle (and really in practice to a large degree) completely justified.

>>9964079
More generally, a heretic is someone who rejects one (or more) crucial element of an otherwise internally coherent system, but keeps most of the rest. So a Marxist who thinks that full communism can be achieved without an earlier capitalist stage of history (or whatever) would be a Marxist heretic, and so on.

>>9968229
Well Hildegard von Bingen was a woman and originally sung those in female monasteries.

>>9968202
thanks for the recommendation.
I agree. I generally liked the idea that there is an upcoming movement that takes pride in history and tradition. The way the alt right is heading now is probably the opposite. Most of them are not even chrisitans but use the chrisitan faith as reason for hating other on yet another level. (not that i support mass migration but the alt right is as silly as the leftist counterparts in that matter)

Have you read houellebecqs novels like atomised or Map and the Territory. They do a great job in outlining how faith had formed our society and how it will continue to do so in the future.

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>catholicism
>no heretics
>no pagans
>no gays
pick something better 2 LARP as

>>9968236
>>9968128
thanks for clarification.

>>9968236
The Northern Crusades were pure shit and not justifiable by any means, they even attacked catholics.

The ones that targeted Jerusalem were actually useful and did succeed, no more mad caliphs killing christians.

Also, remember that was thw justification, not that "the muslims were attacking Europe and enslaving ita people", which is true but not the main reason.

>>9968089
The crusades were justified and played an important part in the preservation of the christian world against the islamic threat of that time. Atrocities happened on all sides in those wars, so they shouldn't be glorified by nowadays christians (as LARPers do) but you should never allow leftists and atheists to use "muh crusades" as an argument against Christianity.

If you want to learn more about the history of the crusades, check out this very competent youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMjUFBYEzqQ

>>9968265
>the only non academician is the one who calls muslims "mohammedans"

Hmmmmm

>>9968277
t. Hillaire Belloc

>>9968265

It's interesting that nobody ever uses the Mongol conquests as an argument against ching chongs, even though they happened roughly at the same time as the Crusades.

>>9968286
the ching chongs are not nearly living in the same system of believe or the same nation that commited the mongol conquest. They do not claim to be the righteous successors of these people therefore its not an argument

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>>9968094
Because the Bible literally says Christ was dead for three days and three nights you fucking retard. At the end of Matthew it literally says that he rose as it dawned towards the next day. (evening, Jewish days are 24hr days that end and begin at 7pm; when the Sun goes down)

ITT Catholics that haven't read the Bible and refuse to admit they are pseudo-pagans that will not be of the remnant that will be saved.

>>9954856
The New World Translation is the most accurate version of the Bible.

>>9967281
>The Rosary prayer literally has you say "Hail Holy Queen of Heaven," so go read Jeremiah 44 as I told you to and come back to me.


Well, the woman seen in Revelation 12:1 is pretty clearly Mary, and she's pretty clearly the queen of heaven (among other things, she's wearing a crown) -- consistent with her role as Theotokos.

But the starting point for Catholic Mariology, imo, is Mary as the Second Eve, as understood by the early Church Fathers.

JH Newman discusses this at some length somewhere -- I mean, he unpacks the significance of this teaching in the early Church. Almost all of Catholic Marian doctrine arises from the Church's centuries long contemplation of this doctrine, which is implicit in scripture, as are all the defined Marian doctrines.

The discussion in this thread puts the Jer 44 "Queen of Heaven" issue into its proper context:
https://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=34582

In particular:
>the fact that a pagan deity was known as the queen of heaven doesn't mean this term can't rightfully be applied, in another sense altogether, to Mary. The pagan king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzer, is called the king of kings by Daniel (Daniel 2:37), yet this doesn't preclude Jesus from being called by the same title (Rev. 17:14; 19:16).

>>9962901
>Love you Catholic posters. Wish I could be drawn to faith honestly.

You should pray for the gift of faith. Pray earnestly, pray repeatedly. By doing so, your will is cooperating with God's grace. (A brother asked St. Thomas what he must do to become a saint. Thomas replied: "Will it.")

I daresay if God wants you drawn to the faith, he wants you drawn honestly.

One never knows with book recommendations; people have very different sensibilities. But two books that many people have found helpful in opening and deepening their understanding of the Christian faith are:

>A Severe Mercy by Sheldon Vanauken

>The Seven-Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton

I highly recommend both!

>>9968651
"After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. "
Sabbath is Saturday, the dawn of the first day is Sunday. What the hell are you talking about?

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>>9956388
>tfw no cute prudent Christian gf

>>9954856
https://my.mixtape.moe/jrnwhf.pdf
new Feser everyone

>>9954856
Are Orthodox heretix?

>>9970270
They are by now. A lot of dogma they reject is there.

>>9969999
Bumping for this

Cardinal Dolan recommended The Diary of a Country Priest and books by Jon Hassler and J.F. Powers on his show when he had Jim Gaffigan as a guest.

>>9970270
no they're schismatics

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRvMx8uWaX4

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>>9954856
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monk

>>9971474

I'm not at all religious, but I really like that painting. Only reason I'm not hanging it on my wall is all the questions I'd have to answer if I did.

>>9971324
> Diary of a Country Priest

I love me some Bernanos. He's great and very underread outside of France. I haven't read Diary yet but most consider it his best work. Bernanos is better than Bresson. At least I preferred the Mouchette novel to the film. And Bresson was a filthy Jansenist who later liked to call himself a 'Christian atheist'

>>9971813
How's Under The Sun of Satan

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>>9954948
>appropriating "pagan" philosophers because the christian "philosophy" was a shit

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0780Bookburning.php

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>>9956476
ODINISM is to ASATRU what NIGGERS are to BLACKS and NAZIS was to GERMANS.

>>9972190
What kind of a dumbass do you have to be to see this as a reliable source?

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Damn good book right here Christbros.

So basically I should get into Tolstoy right? Thoughts on this approach christposters? Any chart on Tolstoy yet or at least some advice from people who have been there?

>>9966933
>idolatry of the rosary
It's a prolonged meditation on the life and work of Jesus, you aren't supposed to just repeat the words.

>>9970270
No, schismatics

CCC 2089
Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it.

Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

Apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith;

Schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

>>9973466
Anything is good, but remember, he was a heretic and was rightfully excommunicated.

>>9966957

It's interesting that this wasn't answered. Protestants can't outright define idolatry as a belief that an object actually is God because then they would realize that their accusations don't make any sense. No Catholic believes the rosary is God. They can't define it any other way, such as an object to aid with worship because that would expose them as hypocrites. Instead they just won't answer the question.

It's especially funny to be accused of idolatry by protestants when many of them actually do make idols of the Bible.

Honest questions: how do Christians think the OT god and the NT god are the same? Isn't the Trinity tri-theism? Aren't the Catholic ornaments and rituals constructions of the Church and not biblical?

>>9954901
actually good, well done anon

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Reminder to you fags to do your Rosaries and First Fridays - free promsies for all!

http://www.themostholyrosary.com/15promises.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Friday_Devotion

>>9974575

Are you familiar with the term progressive revelation? It's the idea that God condescended in a sense to the peoples ability to understand, thus he slowly revealed himself over time. Reading the bible with a typological lens reveals the New in the Old.

In order to understand the trinity we have to define three terms, being, person,and, nature. A being is an existing entity, or "that something is"; a person is a rational individual or "who something is"; and a nature refers to "what something is." For example, you exist so you are a being. You are also a person who has a human nature, that is, you have the capacity to act in distinctively human ways. So you are a being who is one person and possesses one human nature.

Christians do not believe God is one person with infinite attributes. That belief, held for example by Jews and Muslims, is called Unitarianism. Christians believe that God is one being who exists as three persons, each of whom fully possess the divine nature. We're Trinitarians. We believe that because there is only one God, and the Bible shows that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, this means the one God must be three persons. Matthew 28:19 hints at this reality when it says that Jesus commanded baptism in the name (not names) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The Trinity can't be grasped if we think of "beings" and "persons" as the same thing. If we recognize that there are beings that are zero persons (such as rocks and trees) and there are beings that are one person (such as humans and angels), then we see there could be a being that is three persons, or God.

>>9954948
where's Anselm?

>>9955058
>implying christians aren't ubermensch because they aren't slaves to pride, anger, and self-aggrandizing delusions like so called "masters"
nigger

>>9974616
Progressive revelation sounds like apologetics aimed at glossing over OT barbarities. As for the trinity, it sounds intentionally vague, but i get it.

>>9956476
>pope does something a pope should do
>papists get mad
Catholics really are inbred retards, why does this picture trigger so many people

>>9974644

I could definitely see somebody using progressive revelation as a cheap way to explain away certain things but that's not the intention behind it, because ultimately it wouldn't work. To do that would be to admit that God was ever wrong about something, like for instance, slavery. It's my position that slavery is not inherently wrong, only certain types. This is evident by the fact we still practice a form of biblical slavery in the form of the prison system. When somebody commits a crime we take away their freedom for a certain amount of time.

>>9974668
why try and reconcile them? why not just throw the OT out as Jewish barbaric mumbo-jumbo? is it because the "prophecies" prove Jesus' divinity?

>>9955147
meaning of "slave" =/= meaning of being a slave

>>9974700

The earliest revelations of God are just as valuable as the latest. With progressive revelation in mind, you can't understand the new without the knowledge of the old. For example I think the Binding of Isaac is first and foremost a commentary on human sacrifice, it is in a sense God training humans to stop sacrificing humans and it looks forward to the Eucharist, which is the new sacrifice. You can't fully understand what the Eucharist is unless you understand the Old Testament.

I think it's a mistake to assume that because an account or story is old or that because God doesn't fully reveal himself in that account, it should then be thrown out. In a way it's like saying that we should throw away primary historical sources because have secondary historical sources which basically tell us all we need to know.

>>9965067
Just learn Gk and read the Septuagint if you haven't already learned Latin

>>9969928
He's memeing

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>>9974766

I've been trying to learn the Greek alphabet for the past two days

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>>9956388
I got a cute prudent Catholic gf. She's thin and thicc too.

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>>9974642

>>9974790
>thin and thicc too.
What

>>9974653
It's liturgical abuse, going against the rules and point of it.

>>9973915
God you all can take things too far.

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Why christfags love Swans so much?

>>9975211
Gira was Catholic

>>9955470
>Also, read Nietzsche

Maybe you should instead of regurgitating shit you hear from Youtube videos.

>>9971324
>>9971813

Viper's Tangle by Francois Mauriac is an excellent novel by a French Catholic that turns on Catholic themes.

Diary of a Country Priest is well worth reading.

That's rather sad about Bresson. A Condemned Man Escaped, Au Hasard Balthazar, and L'Argent are really beautiful films - truly notable works of cinematic art - although only the first feels remotely optimistic, and the last is very dark indeed.

Does anyone have an epub or pdf of "Augustine: The City of God against the Pagans (Cambridge Texts in the History of Political Thought) ISBN: 0521468434," I can't find it online, and I don't want to spend $46 for it on Amazon.

>>9955058
are you enlightened by your own intelligence?

>>9974848
A well proportioned girl.

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>tfw protestant
feels good not being a papist scum

>>9976673
How's your relation with your father?

are the ridiculous robes and incense waving clergy really necessary?

>>9976702

Necessary for what?

>>9976673

>said the heretic, as he burned books of the bible he doesn't like

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther%27s_canon

>Luther made an attempt to remove the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation from the canon (notably, he perceived them to go against certain Protestant doctrines such as sola gratia and sola fide)

>>9976702
Not that it will change your mind, but Evangelical is Not Enough by Thomas Howard is a fine, short introduction to Catholic liturgical forms by a nice, very smart evangelical who turned Catholic.

It's a minor classic, I daresay.

As for robes and incense, it's all in the book of Revelation:

>http://jgospel.net/fatih/worship/worship-in-the-book-of-revelation-and-the-eastern-orthodox-liturgy.c9002.aspx

>http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2014/12/the-book-of-revelation-guide-to.html

>http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Liturgy%20of%20the%20Mass%20in%20the%20Book%20of%20Revelation.htm

IOW, all the Catholic liturgy stuff? It's scriptural, son.

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Sex and Character by Weininger is an underrated fundamentally Christian work.

>>9976673

A liberal Anglican-Methodist Universalist homosexual Baptist pro-choice Calvinist Puritan professor was teaching a class on Martin Luther, known heretic.

“Before the class begins, you must get on your knees and worship Luther and accept that he was the most highly-evolved theologian the world has ever known, even greater than Jesus Christ!”

At this moment, a brave, patriotic, pro-life Catholic who had confessed his sins that morning and understood the necessity of good works and fully supported all doctrine made by the holy father and the Vatican stood up and held up bread and wine.

"What is this, professor?"

The arrogant professor smirked quite Protestantly and smugly replied “Mere bread and wine, you stupid Papist."

“Wrong. It is the literal flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, blessed be his name.”

The professor was visibly shaken, and dropped his chalk and copy of the 95 theses. He stormed out of the room crying those Protestant crocodile tears.

The students applauded and were all baptized Catholic that day. They prayed the rosary and thanked Mary several times, and Our Lady Fatima herself showed up and blessed the crowd.

The professor lost his tenure and was fired the next day. He was burned at the stake and is in hell for all eternity.

Deus Vult.

>>9961521
this, desu

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>>9967312
>t. asshurt faggot

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>>9967312
>tfw I made the suggestion for this to the artist and he's none of that.

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>>9967312
Oh my innocent friend, I've seen far far far worse.
You need to understand why we hate this cursed world. Intolerant, insecure and ignorant people make images like that only to make themselves feel better. Their hearts are full of hatred. They think they're somehow on the higher level of the hierarchy because of the backward dogmas they blindly follow.
Just have a look at OP's defensive aggression. No one even tried to hurt him. Pathetic.

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>>9967312

>>9976856

What are these backward dogmas that we blindly follow?

>>9976728
if revelation is the only basis for those rituals, the situation is even dumber than i thought.

>>9977171
muh transubstantiation

>>9977212
Sometimes Eucharists bleed as a reminder by God to take the doctrine of the Real Presence seriously.

>>9977212
>>9977221
Not even on point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkXOwBIRX7Y&index=5&list=LLCsZXZg3lzh88RPhBtcTK0w

>>9977221
>Sometimes Eucharists bleed

Would you people just get out already

>>9977246
>he doesn't believe in miracles

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>>9954856
lol

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>>9977626
I’d love to engage in unlit consensual missionary sex for the purposes of procreation with the female described there.

>>9976547
>Maybe you should instead of regurgitating shit you hear from Youtube videos.
>because just randomly making shit up is fun

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>>9977718

You would have to hide certain books from her but otherwise she sounds like an alright gal!

>>9977626
It's kind of a shame here we can't even have a stereotype of a waiting for marriage girl where I live.

>>9977183
Read the Thomas Howard as a starting point, if you're interested. But your evident hostility suggests it's unlikely your mind will change.

>>9977212
Transubstantiation follows from taking Christ's words at the Last Supper literally. That they should be taken literally follows from John 6 and Paul's remarks in 1 Corinthians 10 and 11, and the consistent teaching of the early Church.

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>>9977626
>doctor who

holly kek

>>9979519
Isn't that a Tumblr slut show?

>>9979519
It kind of jars with "creationism" below it, too, since I'm pretty sure there's an episode where the Doctor goes back in time and witnesses the Big Bang

>>9975142

>people who think they know more about liturgy than the Pope

Confess this.

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>>9979882
They do, in fact, exist.

>>9979882
Why? Francis is theologically illiterate. He has almost no idea what he's talking about in most of his statements.

>>9979910

>I disagree with the pope, therefore he is inferior to me in theological knowledge, since I am always objectively correct

Ever hear about papal infallibility, bucko?

>>9979921
Yes and I actually know what it is. It hasn't actually been invoked since JPII on the ordination of women. Francis has not even made any proper magisterial statements. Exhortations are personal opinions, he ignores the form so just about everything he says falls under the personal opinion, in authority the same as say Spirit of Liturgy of BXI.

>>9975308
wait really?

I am a "cradle Catholic" returning to the faith thanks to the Tridentine mass, and may I just say how delighted I am to find an apparently robust Catholic sub-group here. Did not expect it.

>>9974616
what about two-persons? dont hear about many of those

>>9976752
and then everyone clapped

>>9980387
Yeah, he even occasionally goes to mass these days. Just Google Gira Catholic.
>>9981144
There aren't that many places where we can talk about the Tridentine mass and get philospphy and literature recommendations as far as I know so there's bound to be one.

I just can't get myself to go to Mass on Sunday. Every week it comes and I can't do it. I read the Bible every day and pray but I just can't get myself to join any sort of congregation. I can't stand any of it.

>>9982410
The beauty of the Tridentine mass is that there you are truly alone and naked before God. One or one thousand people in the church make no difference.

Bumping this for you christposters.

>>9956388
>tfw attending major catholic uni
>meet smart, devout, cute Catholic girl in my Chem class
>hit it off with her, walk her back to her dorm
>completely forget to get her number
Gonna try and somehow talk to her alone again and get her number. Pray for me bros, that whatever happens may be according to the Lord's will.

Anyways, to talk about some actual /lit/ stuff, what's you all's opinion on the Book of Job. Had to read it for a theo class and I was shocked at how many people thought it was "boring" or "too long." It seemed like an absolutely amazing read to me, and the theological points on the nature of suffering are amazing, yet so many students, even Catholic ones, didn't like it. Am I wrong about it or just surrounded by plebs?

>>9984701
You're surrounded by absolute plebs. Job is one of the most popular books of the bible, within Christianity and without.

>>9984701
Plebs definitely. Job is magnificent. Problably one of the best pieces of OT literature. My second favourite after Ecclesiastes.

>Too long
It's one of the shorter books. Do they even read?

>>9984825
I thought as much. I only wish the teacher had actually focused on the theological points that the book makes, rather than doing her usual bullshit of "we need to focus on what the text actually says rather than later theological interpretations" even though the name of the class is fucking foundations of theology.
Though I guess a protestant teaching a theology class at a catholic university was bound to cause problems anyways

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>>9984857
>protestant teaching a theology class at a catholic university

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>>9984876
I know, right?
And it's not like we don't have enough priests around to teach the classes (frankly I feel that there is nobody better to teach the faith than that, and that having at least one priest for a teacher each semester at a catholic uni should be fucking mandatory) but for some reason we get a Mennonite instead?
>mfw she rebuked students who mentioned original sin when talking about genesis 3 in a written response because "That's a later Catholic development and it's not actually mentioned in there"

>>9982410
But a huge part of Christianity is being part of the mystical Body of Christ. The second of the great commandments is to love your neighbor as yourself. You can't be a Christian of any sort if you have a dislike of your fellow man. They, like you, are children of God, and you, like they, are a sinner in need of mercy and grace.

>>9984905
What the hell is wrong with Catholic schools? This is basic stuff.

>>9984701
i like it because its a break from the usual OT heavenly-sanctioned genocide.

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Its an ecumenical matter

>>9984979
shouldn't be statefunded..... like muslim schools or jewish schools

>>9954856
How can something exist of necessity?

>>9985479
*exist out of necessity

>>9984938
Is it possible for me to be a Christian if Im always alone and dont want to be around people? I'm like a hermit. I don't know I like Jesus and the Bible but I don't care about all this dogma and going to church and being around other people, can't I just commune directly to God like the desert fathers?

>>9985607

For Catholics there are days of obligation like Saturday or Sunday mass and holidays and you have to go to confession at least once a year. You'll have to talk to a priest to know for sure, but with the Church having such a long history of hermits I'm sure there's special accommodations and exceptions.

One thing I don't understand is Sedevacantism, even considering I'm a traditionalist. How can you declare that you're preserving the true Tradition of the Church without maintaining the tradition that the Church and the papacy cannot fail? If they were appointing their own popes that would be one thing, but they say there is no valid pope, and this I don't understand at all.

>>9984905
That's incredibly fucking stupid, considering the same can be said about the Trinity.

>>9985479
God is the only thing that exists necessarily, aka the necessary being in the world of contingent beings.

>>9985950
Sedevacantism is the wrong, but easy answer to what MacIntyre calls an epistemic crisis. The V2 destroyed the way Catholics operated and thought, and that means that a new foundation must be found, rejection of the papacy is one of the possible solutions.

>>9985797
Ok thanks. I think I'm more of a Christian Anarchist though. I don't like the idea of confession.

>>9986779
Confession is Catholic not Christian. If you go into a Christian Church you will not find a confession box.

>>9986811
Ok. There are no churches around me though, and the idea that makes most sense to me is that Christians should only submit to God not any worldly authority or organization. Thanks anyway

>>9986779
God is a God of order, Christian anarchism makes no sense.
>>9986811
Would that mean that most Christians in the 2nd century were not Christian?

>>9986962
What about the sermon on the mount though? I don't know absolutely nothing about the catholic church appeals to me, ive never been able to submit to any worldly authority and never will. Maybe the russian orthodox one might be better because I find the idea of a pope ridiculous. Ill stop posting now, I shouldnt have brought this up in a catholic thread ill just wait until there's a christian one.

>>9986994
>because I find the idea of a pope ridiculous

Why is that? There's actually very strong biblical support for the office of pope.

Imagine if every American had the authority to decide what the US constitution means. Each person could do as he wished, saying that his actions fell under his own interpretation of "freedom of religion" or "freedom of association." What would come of this approach? Anarchy. Fortunately, the founding fathers created an institution called the Supreme Court that was entrusted with interpreting the Constitution. That way, through the court's decisions, a uniform legal code would be created that would treat all citizens equally. Just as a personal interpretation of the constitution would lead to chaos for the rule of law, relying solely on one's personal interpretation of the bible as a guide to Christian doctrine leads to chaos for the rule of faith.

If Americas founding fathers were wise enough to foresee the dangers of individuals engaging in private constitutional interpretation, then wouldn't the church's "founding fathers," or Christ and the apostles, see the danger in relegating Christian authority to private biblical interpretation? We read in Peter 1:20 that "no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation," and the author later warns his readers that some passages in the bible are "hard to understand, which the ignorant and the unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures" (2 Pet. 3:16)

>>9987008
i dont like the pope because i dont like authority and how you have to pretend like he's right about everything even those he's just another person. im looking into the orthodox church now I like Tolstoy a lot and his views even though they consider him some sort of heretic. I'll probably just make my own spiritual path its pretty clear from viewing the actions of most christians nowadays that they dont actually believe what they say, and I can't stand hypocrisy. I'm attracted to the Christianity of the hairshirt and the desert, the Christianity of crucifixion and abjection and of Origen who cut off his genitals. A life of poverty, repudiation, and flagellation leading to crucifixtion. A Christianity for those who lead lonely and terrible lives among criminals and madmen, for hermits and holy fools.

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."

"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

That's the sort of Christianity that I like, though I'm beginning to think I just like Jesus and not everything else that came afterwards. I don't give a fuck about dogma or anything like that.

These are my beliefs :

- No original sin.
- Observance of Sunday as the Sabbath is not required.
- God exists, but Jesus is an aspect of godliness and God, not the same as God.
- The Bible is not accurate or infallible.
- The church is fallible.
- The moment Jesus transferred his teachings to man they became corrupted.
- Only Jesus can establish the new church, at the second coming.
- Salvation can only be attained at the second coming.
- Jesus will save everything, non-anthropromorhicist salvation.
- There is no way to tell who will go to Heaven or Hell.
- Satan is the evil inclination within us.

Can I call myself Christian or am I a turbo-heretic?

>>9987354

>i dont like the pope because i dont like authority and how you have to pretend like he's right about everything even those he's just another person

We believe in papal infallibility, not impeccability. We don't believe that he's right about everything, we believe he's only infallible under certain circumstance and contexts on a limited number of issues. Nobody thinks he's perfect or sinless.

>>9987477
I'm aware of that (though you should see how some Catholics talk about the pope). I don't agree with the infallible part.

>>9987426
>God exists, but Jesus is an aspect of godliness and God, not the same as God.
>The moment Jesus transferred his teachings to man they became corrupted.
Heretical

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>I believe in Papal authority

>>9987491

What do you think of Matthew 16?

It's my belief that the key imagery indicates that Peter will be given the office of prime minister in Jesus' Church, and the power to bind and loose gives Peter and his successors the power to absolve sins and to make definitive judgement in matters of faith and morals. Therefore Peter and his successors are protected from teaching error, because God who is truth binds and looses in heaven what Peter binds and looses on earth.

The "keys" are a reference of Isaiah 22. In the Davidic kingdom, the king appointed a cabinet of ministers (1 Kgs 4:1-6; 2Kgs 18:37). Of these ministers, one was elevated to a unique status. His authority was second only to that of the king, who gave him the authority over all other minsters and everyone else in the kingdom. This was a common practice in the Near East. For example, when Joseph became the prime minister of Egypt, Pharaoh said, "You shall be over my house [dynasty and kingdom], and all my people shall order themselves as you command; only as regards the throne will I be greater than you ... I am Pharaoh, and without your consent no man shall lift up hand or foot in all the land of Egypt" (Gen 41:40,44). The Symbol of Joseph's office was the signet ring that Pharaoh took from his hand and put it on Joseph's hand (Gen 41:42)

Now let's fast forward to David's kingdom. David ruled from 1010 to 970 BC. However, his dynasty continued after his death. Hezekiah became the king of Judah at the age of 25 approximately 265 years after King David's death. Hezekiah's rule from 715 to 687 was marked by a great religious reform. It was during his reign that Shebna, the prime minister or royal steward (Is 22:15) was removed from his office:

>Behold, the Lord will hurl you away violently, O you strong man ... I will thrust you from your office, and you will be cast down from your station" (Is 22:17, 19).

Eliakim will be installed in his place as prime minister (Is 22:20-22). The symbol of that office is "the key of the house of David" (Is 22:22).

The point of Jesus' reference to Isaiah 22 is to indicate that Peter will also be given an office in Jesus' kingdom, which is his Church. That office will continue as long as Jesus' kingdom on earth continues. Jesus is the new Moses. Like the first Moses, Jesus established a priestly hierarchy in his kingdom. Peter and his successors are the chief ministers in that kingdom, the rock upon which Jesus will build his Church.

It's also significant that during the last supper, at the very time Jesus predicted Peter's three-fold denial, Jesus also reminded Peter to fulfill his office by strengthening his brothers after he repented. After the resurrection, Jesus confirmed Peter as the head of the church when he commanded Peter three times, "feed my lambs ... Tend my sheep ... Feed my sheep," then Jesus added "follow me"

>>9987426
Read Charles Hartshorne

>>9987626
I don't intend to get in a debate with you m8, like I said I'm already too much of a "heretic" on other things to really care about whether apostolic succession or papal infallibility is real or whatever. it's fine, i'll just go my own path i'm not concerned anymore what others think

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>you will never be a devout Christian monk scribe
>you will never live a life of celibacy and righteous inner-peace
>you will never master the artform of calligraphy
>you will never transcribe the word of God with ink and pen under the candlelit cloisters
>you will never carry the thuribles of your faith with thine brothers
>you will never bless the masses with the miracles of the sacrament
Why even live?

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Any easy to digest books on christian belief?
Not Bible. I want to understand christian belief but I don't want to put in any effort, I'd like everything predigested for me.
Help me, christian bros.

>>9987650

But don't you realize that if the Catholic Church is true you're endangering your soul by denying it? If the Church was truly founded by Jesus Christ you're denying Jesus by extension. I think you have a duty to discern the truth as best you can.

>>9987691

Check out Trent Horn, his newest book "Why we're Catholic" is great.

>>9987700
well if the catholic church is true then billions of people are endangering their souls. and it's not like you guys care either, because if you seriously believed that souls were at stake you'd be doing everything in your power to convert as many people as you possibly can, which you don't. so no, i'll be fine.

>>9987823

How do you know that I don't do everything I can to convert other people or that I don't care about other peoples souls? Even if I didn't care it would only make me a hypocrite. This wouldn't change the reality that if the Catholic Church is true, and you deny it, you're denying God.

I do agree with you that many people are endangering their souls, because they have the means and the ability to know the truth but they choose not to or they reject it. When it comes down to it we have one choice in this life that truly matters. We can accept God or we can reject him. We can live in his presence for eternity or we can live without it. This is entirely your decision to make.

>>9986177
But that doesn't explain how something, God in this instance, can exist necessarily.

>>9987823
The belief that only Catholics can be saved was muddied by the Second Vatican Council and the subsequent leadership of the Church so most Catholics do not believe in it. But the ones that do are doing what they can, and so are we here, albeit in a very limited manner. Recommending books, clarifying the faith and so on may not seem like much, but books for book worms are pretty powerful, as well as the sublime experience of the Tridentine mass.

This is some weird fucking shit, friends.

>>9987890
Lol, complete cope. I know because you and the way all christians act completely demonstrate that they don't actually believe in an after-life, souls, heaven or hell, any of that. I wish you did, I'm sure you all probably once did long ago but you lost it somewhere along the way. All you have is a simulation of lost feelings now. If you wanted "save" people's souls then you'd be fanatics dedicating your lives to making people convert, even through violence if necessary. Other people don't have the "means" to find the truth, because your arbitrary church is not the truth. This reads like delusional nonsense, I like Jesus, but I do not want to be a part of your cult. I'm out.

>>9987898
So how are you reconciling with the fact that the church will die out within a few centuries

>>9987897
https://youtu.be/hXPdpEJk78E
This may shed some light and Russell here tries to attack it, but I think he does a very poor job. In short, because everything we know is contingent, aka dependant on something else, there must be a thing which is not dependent on anything, a self caused, self sufficient being we call God.

>>9987904
Hey anon, can you elaborate more on your beliefs about christians not really believing? I'm genuinely curious as it's a thing I have been thinking about as well.

I'm also curious about your opinion on different groups of christians believing different things.

>>9987907
And you know what based on what? I think it absurd to believe that it will die out completely, especially since it's growing in some places while the other countries have a clear shift from mass, popular Catholicism to traditional communities and parishes built around the Tridentine mass. It's a rapidly growing group, most Catholics here already belonging to it, rather few being older than 40, including the priests.

>>9987914
I'm just someone who values authenticity and believes that you should live out your ideals above all else. I'll copy what I wrote above.

I'm attracted to the Christianity of the hairshirt and the desert, the Christianity of crucifixion and abjection and of Origen who cut off his genitals. A life of poverty, repudiation, and flagellation leading to crucifixion. A Christianity for those who lead lonely and terrible lives among criminals and madmen, for hermits and holy fools.

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26

"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you." John 15:19

When you look at the way Christians act nowadays do you actually you sense that they TRULY believe in heaven, hell and the eternal soul? I don't at all. I mean, if you were to fully believe in something like that your entire world would change, the way that you live in the world everything would be centered around god, you wouldn't care about the material world at all because you are not of this world. They make this point clear tons of times in the bible. The kingdom of Christians is in Heaven, not on Earth. But do you see the way Christians living reflect that at all? I don't. THE FATE OF YOUR ETERNAL SOUL IS AT STAKE. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE ENTIRE WORLD, YOUR ENTIRE LIFE IT IS EVERYTHING. But what do Christians do nowadays? Absolutely fucking nothing, maybe they go to Africa on mission trips but that's about it. It's such a shame because Jesus was such a revolutionary, he didn't listen to anyone or follow any creeds or groups, he was truly an individual of the highest order he was probably the most authentic person to ever live. I think I might understand Nietzsche now, the way that Christians act nowadays is as if God is dead. They act as if God is dead even though they believe in him. And if all these Catholics and Orthodox and sectarian Protestant groups are right and that you have to follow their super specific bullshit dogma in order to be "saved" and that everyone else goes to hell then the Gnostics are right and the god of this world is evil. I wouldn't want to worship a god like that. If the Catholic church is supposedly "the truth" then how about actually start acting like it.

>>9987922
I didn't say Catholicism, I said your traditionalist interpretation of it.

>>9987981

It's hard

>>9987981
I actually feel the same way, anon.
It's hard for me to reconcile completely contradictory words and acts of modern-day christians. If what they say is true, the should drop everything and save as many souls as they can from eternal damnation. That would be the purest, most logical outcome. But nobody does that. Everyone just lives normal lives with a sprinkle of faith.
What I realised recently is the way faith tends to be circular and self-perpetuating. I've spotted this "phenomenon" in other things and I try to actively cut it out of my thought processes, if it emerges. I'm not sure if you understand and I'm not really able to explain right now. My brain is fried because my finals are tomorrow and I can't remember any other examples other than religion that I have come up with before.

Though coming from the most athetistic country on the planet, I always had a hard time symphatising with believers, even if I respect them as people and don't want to meddle with their faith if it helps them get through the day.

Also, I'm going to have to read Nietzsche, it seems.

>>9987909
Why must it be a being, and not a substance or energy? And your conclusion assumes that an infinite regression of causation is impossible, or at least it seems that way, but I see no grounds for this assumption.

>>9987981
>When you look at the way Christians act nowadays do you actually you sense that they TRULY believe in heaven, hell and the eternal soul?
I actually think that very few groups of Christians have ever lived like that. One of the only groups I have read about whose writing and societal structure seems to point to a culture that genuinely hated its sins and lived in horrendous fear of damnation were the Puritans that were prodded out of England to the New World. You really get the sense when you read their personal correspondences and similar material that they were to the last man and woman living each day and carrying out their life's duties as if their eternal existence depended on it.

It sounds exhausting, but you cannot say that an impressive society did not grow out of that kind of moral seriousness.

>>9987989
It's more alive now than 30 years ago, again, why would you assume so?

>>9988019
God is a substance (in the aristotelian sense of the word).
Infinite regress is something to be avoided in logic (hence axioms) as far as I know and it doesn't assume that there cannot be a series of causes sent in an eternal universe, it means that it's an absurdity for a contingent being to exist without something eternal.

>>9988017
I don't think Nietzsche is essential reading as far as Christianity goes, but just in general there are a lot of things you can pick up from him. I've been reading Jacques Ellul recently, he's a Christian Anarchist, and he has a lot of interesting things to say, not just about religion but also technology, sociology, and other topics. I would recommend him. I have the same thoughts as you regarding believers. I admire monks a lot, but the contradictions of normal Christians do get to me. Kierkegaard is interesting in this context because he just basically said "Fuck this, fuck all the contradictions and inauthenticity you just have to ignore everyone else and believe as hard as you can." It's really the Catholics and other sects like them who are the most annoying, because most of them say that if you're not part of the Catholic church then you'll go to purgatory but if that was true then they should be doing everything they can in order to get people to join the church, but they obviously don't do that. I don't know, I think I'm more of a mystic or even a pagan at heart, I don't think I'd ever be able to fully commit to one faith.

>>9988019
As for why God is a necessarily intelligent being different from the world, it rests on the argument from design and from telos, but it's built on a larger system of metaphysics, as this discussion won't mean much I'll just recommend you God His Existence and His Nature and Reality A Thomistic Synthesis by Garrigou-Lagrange, Scholastic Metaphysics and 5 Proofs of God by Edward Feser. Garrigou-Lagrange is incredibly dense, but incredibly firm and systematic, while Feser handles the contemporary objections to the arguments made.

>>9988089
Oh no, we don't say non Catholics go to Purgatory, it's reserved for Catholics. Jews, Schismatics, Heretics and pagans go to the fire of hell prepared for the devil and his angels.

>>9988089
>I think I'm more of a mystic or even a pagan at heart, I don't think I'd ever be able to fully commit to one faith.
What of paganism or mysticism is close to you then? You sound just like a rational person/agnostic/atheist. Or maybe I just don't know what those two terms really mean (to you or in general).

>>9988057
Yeah, I've actually read some about the Puritans and the Calvinist rule in Geneva, and I have a lot of respect for them and that sort of fire-and-brimstone preaching, and the seriousness with which they approached their faith. I'm American and I think I'll always be more of a Puritan/Protestant "faith above all" at heart than other Christian sects, the careless mindset of Catholicism just doesn't come naturally to me and Orthodox is just too foreign.

>>9988095
Cool brah xD really showing that you care about those eternal souls of your common man amirite??

>>9988090
I will certainly read these.

>>9988100
No I believe in a god of sorts, supernatural and mystic stuff. It's just that I have a "universalist" mindset I'm willing to approach all sorts of religions and faith with an open mind and not write them off. My fundamental position is that I know absolute nothing about anything, and I never will, so I stay open and just follow my instincts and what sounds the most good and beautiful to me. I was raised irreligious, so I don't think I'll ever be able to have the fervor and full commitment that some people have towards a religion. Even if Catholicism was somehow the truth, I don't think I'd be able to commit to it, it's just not who I am. Sort of like Simone Weil, who never got baptized even though she considered herself a Christian. I'm just a wanderer, a hermit, and religion is mainly a social thing. I'm just off on my own.

>>9988140
That is certainly very interesting.
As interesting is your admiration of monks and "real" christians. I'll be assimilating some of your views into my own because they look very rational.
It was pleasure talking with you, anon.

>>9988150
You too. You said you lived in the most atheistic country on the planet, I assume you mean Sweden or somewhere in Scandinavia?

To be honest, I don't understand how people can do it, can fully believe in one thing. I know absolutely nothing. And not just about religion, about anything in life, absolutely anything at all. It's like I somehow missed out on something that everything else knows. Usually people in my situation resort to nihilism and that nothing matters, but really the most important thing to me in a world that is fundamentally unknowable on the deepest level, that is utterly impossible to understand is what is beautiful. Just following my own aesthetic taste, and valuing those things that give my life meaning. I don't know about you, but when I read a good novel or other piece of art, suddenly, just for a moment it's like everything makes sense and I'm so glad to be alive, just to experience it.

>>9988119
Indeed, knowing that your eternal soul is in peril is a very important thing to know. And why would I hide the truth from you?
>>9988121
Well that was unexpected.

>>9988200
Cuz there is no such thing as truth ya dingus

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>>9988121
Aristotelian proof

>>9988111
>the careless mindset of Catholicism
Could you elaborate on this please? I hear remarks like this all the time.

>>9988172
Czechia. Everyone always guesses Sweden, haha.

I know exactly what you mean. It'd be very comfortable to really believe in something and be sure of it, but I can't do it as well. I can't make myself believe in something that just makes no sense, and believe me, I tried. Even as a kid. The last time I really tried was - and please don't laugh - when I was making a tulpa. And no, I'm not an autist or a socially retarded person. Thinking about it now, that also required a great deal of that circular thinking that I described earlier. Stopping believing that it would work was supposed to undo the whole process and everything I did so far would be pointless. Even if I didn't see any results for a long time. So I kept forcing myself to believe. I'm sure you can see the similarity to religion.
I'm not sure if you're interested in this, so you're free to skip the following. I think I somewhat succeeded, so it's not entirely like religion. But I didn't come close to even beginning to hallucinate its form in real life or any effortless communication with it. I'm not sure if the folks over at tulpa forums are in that perpetual cycle of forcing themselves to believe that it'll all work in the end or if it actually works for them as advertised, with the hallucinations and all. It's hard to say if they're only pretending for the sake of that vicious circle.

But yeah. It'd be very comfortable not being aware of that self-perpetuating process that seems to permeate through all religions that I know of. But I suppose that this knowledge and also the knowledge that I can't really know shit is never really going away. That'll keep me from really "believing" in something ever again, possibly forever.

>>9988214

What is this, an argument for ants?

>>9988216
Is Czechia quite right-wing despite the atheism?

>>9988214
1. Change is a real feature of the world.
2. But change is the actualization of a potential.
3. So, the actualization of potential is a real feature of the world.
4. No potential can be actualized unless something already actual actualizes it (the principle of causality).
5. So, any change is caused by something already actual.
6. The occurrence of any change C presupposes some thing or substance S which changes.
7. The existence of S at any given moment itself presupposes the concurrent actualization of S’s potential for existence.
8. So, any substance S has at any moment some actualizer A of its existence.
9. A’s own existence at the moment it actualizes S itself presupposes either (a) the concurrent actualization of its own potential for existence or (b) A’s being purely actual.
10. If A’s existence at the moment it actualizes S presupposes the concurrent actualization of its own potential for existence, then there exists a regress of concurrent actualizes that is either infinite or terminates in a purely actual actualizer.
11. But such a regress of concurrent actualizes would constitute a hierarchical causal series, and such a series cannot regress infinitely.

>>9988243
12. So, either A itself is a purely actual actualizer or there is a purely actual actualizer which terminates the regress that begins with the actualization of A.
13. So, the occurrence of C and thus the existence of S at any given moment presupposes the existence of a purely actual actualizer.
14. So, there is a purely actual actualizer.
15. In order for there to be more than one purely actual actualizer, there would have to be some differentiating feature that one such actualizer has that the others lack.
16. But there could be such a differentiating feature only if a purely actual actualizer had some unactualized potential, which, being purely actual, it does not have.
17. So, there can be no such differentiating feature, and thus no way for there to be more than one purely actual actualizer.
18. So, there is only one purely actual actualizer.
19. In order for this purely actual actualizer to be capable of change, it would have to have potentials capable of actualization.
20. But being purely actual, it lacks any such potentials.
21. So, it is immutable or incapable of change.
22. If this purely actual actualizer existed in time, then it would be capable of change, which it is not.
23. So, this purely actual actualizer is eternal, existing outside of time.
24. If the purely actual actualizer were material, then it would be changeable and exist in time, which it does not.
25. So, the purely actual actualizer is immaterial.
26. If the purely actual actualizer were corporeal, then it would be material, which it is not.
27. So, the purely actual actualizer is incorporeal.
28. If the purely actual actualizer were imperfect in any way, it would have some unactualized potential, which, being purely actual, it does not have.
29. So, the purely actual actualizer is perfect.
30. For something to be less than fully good is for it to have a privation—that is, to fail to actualize some feature proper to it.
31. A purely actual actualizer, being purely actual, can have no such privation.
32. So, the purely actual actualizer is fully good.

>>9988243

Why not post the informal argument instead? 99% of people aren't going to understand this.

>>9988261
I think most people aren't stupid and this is just about as simple as this can possibly be.
Now the neoplatonic proof.
1. The things of our experience are composite.
2. A composite exists at any moment only insofar as its parts are combined at that moment.
3. This composition of parts requires a concurrent cause.
4. So, any composite has a cause of its existence at any moment at which it exists.
5. So, each of the things of our experience has a cause at any moment at which it exists.
6. If the cause of a composite thing’s existence at any moment is itself composite, then it will in turn require a cause of its own existence at that moment.
7. The regress of causes this entails is hierarchical in nature, and such a regress must have a first member.
8. Only something absolutely simple or noncomposite could be the first member of such a series.
9. So, the existence of each of the things of our experience presupposes an absolutely simple or noncomposite cause.
10. In order for there to be more than absolutely one simple or noncomposite cause, each would have to have some differentiating feature that the others lacked.
11. But for a cause to have such a feature would be for it to have parts, in which case it would not really be simple or noncomposite.
12. So, no absolutely simple or noncomposite cause can have such a differentiating feature.
13. So, there cannot be more than one absolutely simple or noncomposite cause.

>>9988234
Hard for me to say, really. I live in rather liberal (not in the bastardized american sense of the world) circles, so it's rather hard for me to see into other circles such as those or even see the big picture. I'm not old enough (22) to really _get_ it, if you understand and I'm also pretty ass at politics.
I can't even accurately guess the magnitude of the muslim boogeyman mentality, if that fits into the "right-wing" box.

So, I'm sorry.

Also, if you're the same anon as from before, I'd like it if you kept talking about your sort of all-over-the-place beliefs. I'd like to steal them for a character in a story I'm writing, because they fit perfectly with him, if that's okay.
I'm too firmly into the atheist camp so I can't easily make it all up.

>>9988268
14. If the absolutely simple or noncomposite cause were changeable, then it would have parts which it gains or loses—which, being simple or non-composite, it does not have.
15. So, the absolutely simple or noncomposite cause is changeless or immutable.
16. If the absolutely simple or noncomposite cause had a beginning or an end, it would have parts which could either be combined or broken apart.
17. So, since it has no such parts, the absolutely simple or noncomposite cause is beginningless and endless.
18. Whatever is immutable, beginningless, and endless is eternal.
19. So, the absolutely simple or noncomposite cause is eternal.
20. If something is caused, then it has parts which need to be combined.
21. So, the absolutely simple or noncomposite cause, since it has no parts, is uncaused.
22. Everything is either a mind, or a mental content, or a material entity, or an abstract entity.
23. An abstract entity is causally inert.
24. So, the absolutely simple or noncomposite cause, since it is not causally inert, is not an abstract entity.
25. A material entity has parts and is changeable.
26. So, the absolutely simple or noncomposite cause, since it is without parts and changeless, is not a material entity.
27. A mental content presupposes the existence of a mind, and so cannot be the ultimate cause of anything.
28. So, the absolutely simple or noncomposite cause, being the ultimate cause of things, cannot be a mental content.
29. So, the absolutely simple or noncomposite cause must be a mind.
30. Since the absolutely simple or noncomposite cause is unique, everything other than it is composite.
31. Every composite has the absolutely simple or noncomposite cause as its ultimate cause.
32. So, the absolutely simple or noncomposite cause is the ultimate cause of everything other than itself.
33. If the absolutely simple or noncomposite cause had potentialities as well as actualities, it would have parts.
34. So, since it has no parts, it must have no potentialities but be purely actual.
35. A purely actual cause must be perfect, omnipotent, fully good, and omniscient.
36. So, there exists a cause which is simple or noncomposite, unique, immutable, eternal, immaterial, a mind or intellect, the uncaused ultimate cause of everything other than itself, purely actual, perfect, omnipotent, fully good, and omniscient.
37. But for there to be such a cause is just what it is for God to exist.
38. So, God exists.

>>9988216
Czech republic always sounded like the nicest country in Eastern Europe to me. I know exactly what you mean by circular and self-perpetuating reasoning, it's hard to escape from and I don't think you can ever do it completely. You might be surprised at how well forcing yourself to believe something works though, that's basically what "magic" is all about when it comes down to it, having your beliefs affect the world. One thing about the internet is that it does make it hard to fully believe in something as it exposes you to so many different ideologies, it's way different than 500 years ago when you would never even leave your village and the only thing you were able to read would be a Bible. As someone who is basically a schizoid and has never had any friends, I always thought having a Tulpa sounded nice, though just like you I wouldn't be able to go through with it all the way. Nice talking with you.

>>9988274
1. There are three possible accounts of abstract objects such as universals, propositions, numbers and other mathematical objects, and possible worlds: realism, nominalism, and conceptualism.
2. There are decisive arguments in favor of realism.
3. There are insuperable objections against nominalism.
4. There are insuperable objections against conceptualism.
5. So, some version of realism is tme.
6. There are three possible versions of realism: Platonic realism, Aristotelian realism, and Scholastic realism.
7. If Platonic realism is tme, then abstract objects exist in a “third realm” distinct from either the material world or any intellect.
8. If Aristo teHan realism is tme, then abstract objects exist only in human or other contingently existing intellects.
9. If Scholastic realism is tme, then abstract objects exist not only in contingently existing intellects but also in at least one necessarily existing intellect.
10. There are insuperable objections against the claim that abstract objects exist in a “third realm” distinct from either the material world or any intellect.
11. So, Platonic realism is not tme.
12. There are insuperable objections against the claim that abstract objects exist only in human or other contingently existing intellects.
13. So, Aristotelian realism is not tme.
14. So, Scholastic realism is tme.
15. So, abstract objects exist not only in contingently existing intellects but also in at least one necessarily existing intellect.
16. Abstract objects such as universals, propositions, numbers and other mathematical objects, and possible worlds are all logically related to one another in such a way that they form an interlocking system of ideas.
17. The reasons for concluding that at least some abstract objects exist in a necessarily existing intellect also entail that this interlocking system of ideas must exist in a necessarily existing intellect.
18. So, this interlocking system of ideas exists in at least one necessarily existing intellect.
19. A necessarily existing intellect would be purely actual.
20. There cannot be more than one thing that is purely actual.
21. So, there cannot be more than one necessarily existing intellect.
22. An intellect in which the interlocking system of ideas in question existed would be conceptually omniscient.
23. So, the one necessarily existing intellect is conceptually omniscient.
24. If this one necessarily existing intellect were not also omniscient in the stronger sense that it knows all contingent truths, then it would have unrealized potential and thus not be purely actual.

>>9988281
25. So, it is also omniscient in this stronger sense.
26. What is purely actual must also be omnipotent, fully good, immutable, immaterial, incorporeal, and eternal.
27. So, there is exactly one necessarily existing intellect, which is purely actual, omniscient, omnipotent, fully good, immutable, immaterial, incorporeal, and eternal.
28. But for there to be such a thing is just what it is for God to exist.
29. So, God exists.

>>9988268
>I think most people aren't stupid and this is just about as simple as this can possibly be.

Most people haven't read Feser and they have absolutely zero exposure to scholastic philosophy. If you understand the argument then explain it in your own words or at least copy and paste the sections are understandable to the uninitiated. Don't gish gallop, that doesn't help or teach anyone.

>>9988269
>if you're the same anon as from before
I'm not, sorry. That was my first post in the thread.

>>9969999
is where I'm posting the proof from if anyone is interested

>>9988276
>I always thought having a Tulpa sounded nice
Yeah, it's a pretty rosy concept, but the reality will probably never really match the expectations. In fact, I'd wager it'd lead you to some mental problems if you've got the predispositions, from my own experience.

There are easier ways to get different things that might fill the niche of a tulpa, real things, real people and self-improvement.
I've got some remnants of her in my head that I'm keeping. I could probably forget/unwill/make her not exist anymore if I wanted to, but I don't want to because there's nothing really to gain either way. I realize this all doesn't sound very rational or sane but it is what it is. It's just brain fuckery, nothing supernatural about it. The brain is a weird thing.

>>9988269
I'm the anon you've been talking to. If you want some crazy beliefs then I know someone who is schizotypal. He believes in fairies, elves, sentient trees and that he can communicate with nature beings. He believes that Middle Earth and Conan the Barbarian's Hyperborea were real before the ice age. When he dies he think he'll become a God and go to Valhalla, and that in 1,000 years the Earth will return to Neo-Germanic tribal living. I hope that helps

>>9988322
I was more talking about you specifically and your beliefs. What is your god in your mind? What are the specifics of your approach to the supernatural?

>>9988341
Oh, I'm probably the wrong person to ask or do research on then, I don't really have a nuanced view of god or mysticism. My outlook can probable be summed up by this quote from The Brother Karamazov by Dostoevsky.

“I believe like a child that suffering will be healed and made up for, that all the humiliating absurdity of human contradictions will vanish like a pitiful mirage, like the despicable fabrication of the impotent and infinitely small Euclidean mind of man, that in the world's finale, at the moment of eternal harmony, something so precious will come to pass that it will suffice for all hearts, for the comforting of all resentments, for the atonement of all the crimes of humanity, for all the blood that they've shed; that it will make it not only possible to forgive but to justify all that has happened.”

>>9988376
Thank you, anon, that's very good.

>>9968257
God that fresco pisses me off. The Archbishop who painted it needs to be excommunicated. What the fuck does he think the church is or stands for?

>>9972190
There is only one truth, lad.