HOLY SH*T. Just realised that 'prayer' is a massive

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>>9917281
>he's a determinist
>he can't into the interaction between divine intervention and free will

>>9917281

so this is the power...of an undergrad's philosophy degree. woah.

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>>9917291
>He can no longer use suffering as a proof that God doesn't exist because he didn't realise that God is perfect and suffering is not God's doing.

Road's closed faithlet, find another way home.

>>9917281
>Viewing Prayer as a glorified Christmas list.

You moron. Prayer is a way to ask for forgiveness. It's a way to transform yourself.

And if we're going the hard determinist route anyway why even bother being good?

>>9917286
>the interaction between divine intervention and free will
Go on then, please enlighten me.

>>9917291
Not an argument.

>>9917294
Not the OPs point at all. In fact, you are supporting his point by saying that people who use prayer insinuate this.

>>9917295
Would a perfect God not already know what's in your heart and forgive you?

>>9917295
came here to post this

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blew my mind

>>9917295
Its stay gay tho

>>9917298
I don't think you understand that prayer is for the mental benefit of the pray-ee. This isn't some kind of cup-phone to God. You can go your whole life without praying once and in the eyes of God you'll still be a-ok if your heart's in the right place.

>>9917281
DUDE

>>9917298
>Go on then, please enlighten me.
if u don't get it u never will bcuz god is perfegd lmao xD

BRUH

>>9917281
Why do people think God/structure of the universe is somehow perfect?

>>9917291
Undergrad is giving this shitpost too much credit.

>>9917320
Aaah, so you don't even really need to believe in God, you can just meditate.

>>9917323
Sad!

>>9917281
Praying is more about faith desu. Like trusting that there's a larger order when life is fucked up and stupid and evil. It's actually a normal reaction when you think about it. There isn't really anything to "realize". This is all just a mean-spirited lie.

>>9917356
So yeah, just about creature comfort then.
>hush little baby don't you cry
>there's a magic daddy in the sky

>>9917357

We're reaching levels of reddit that shouldn't even be possible...

>>9917357
Right. The person who gave their soul to you and wanted you to live, they aren't dead and gone forever, like a rotten pile of fish. They're in "heaven".

>>9917363
The word "reddit" is not an argument. Someone should have told you that by now.

>>9917357
>He doesn't understand the power of positive affirmation.
/r/facesofatheism

>>9917281
>what is "free will"
>what is "personal responsibility"
>what is "god helps those who help themselves"
>what is "not being an obtuse redditor who intentionally misinterprets religious texts at every level of analysis in order to feel S-M-R-T on a laotian sign language learning center"

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>>9917372
Sooo, what are you trying to argue?

>>9917364
I threw a pretend fish toy in the garbage today because it was mouldy. Still for a millisecond, as I let it go and closed the lid, I stung. This death shit runs deep...

>>9917370
Have you heard of The Secret! You'd dig it man.

>>9917372
Oh! So God gave free will as part of his test, knowing some would fail. How silly of me, and evil of him.

>>9917377
>Its another bitter, negative, cynical atheist who resents people who aren't pieces of shit like him episode.

>>9917377

Yikes.

>>9917375
OP would rather make the most basic, literalist, low-effort "observations" (if you could even call them that) of the Bible he can muster than acknowledge the fact that he doesnt understand what he's talking about. This not only makes him a faggot, it puts him on the highest level of faggotry currently attainable to humanity.

Seriously, if your honest approach to deciphering and understanding something as hyper-complex and symbolically dense as the Bible is to take the most cursory glance at it and think "well it meant that in the most literal way possible and clearly that sky daddy stuff is just wrong!", go the fuck home back to your video games and never open a god damn book again. This thread is the /lit/ equivalent of "i dont wanna be a bodybuilder i just wanna get TONED!"

>>9917357
Dude, as an atheist you are still faithful to the idea that God doesn't exist. Life and consciousness cannot have possibly come into existence without a divine being making such a thing happen.

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>>9917281
>>The underlying premises that God is absolutely perfect, omnipresent, omnipotent etc must be true. God has to be perfect for God to be God.

The entity receiving Christians' prayers is not God though.

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>>9917394
OP here, I personally believe in God though...

I also like the Bible because biblical stories are excellent ways to conceptualise God. The only point I tried to make that religious interpretations of it are contradictory in this sense (the OP). The stories in the Bible, literally speaking, aren't completely true or scientifically accurate. But the ideas, morals and lessons underpinning the Bible are quite universally true and many interpretations of it either individually or through religion violate the premises that God is perfect, omnipotent etc.

>>9917357

The implication is not that the magic daddy isn't real. It's that he is Evil.

>>9917281
Remove the autism reactor from the back of your skull and, if your aspergers-riddled mind is capable, think about this pragmatically:
>person has problem
>person retreats to peaceful, quiet place and thinks deeply and meditatively for a certain period of time
>person spontaneously figures out a potential solution to his problem
>person applies the solution to the world and the problem is alleviated, leaving himself and likely those around him better off

What did this person just partake in? What label would you give that process?
From whence did that solution to his problem come?
Why does it bother you so terribly that the person walks away from that scenario thinking that the solution to his problem was the answer to his "prayer" which came from a God?
Why are you so hell-bent on dismantling a value system which has been an immeasurably large net gain for human civilization as the foundation of western society, even with the tremendous pitfalls and loss of life caused by corrupt institutions which tried to administer it?
Why are you such a fucking queer?

>>9917294

The narrative according to which someone is perfect and all of the suffering that results from his interaction with an other is always said other's fault is the narrative of the psycopath.

>>9917415
God can't be evil because God is perfect.

You idiot.

>>9917423

Christian thinking is so weak that there's no way to tell if this is an honest attempt at a rebuttal or deadpan sarcasm.

>>9917431
>Not knowing what a rebuttal looks like.
>Not rebutting what is clearly a rebuttal.

>>9917353
>Aaah, so you don't even really need to believe in God, you can just meditate
no stupid

Wrong. Fuck off, stupid adolescent. You understand nothing
>
First premise is fine albeit reductionist
>
No, it does not imply that. Read the fucking Bible you stupid fucking cunt. Or a few thousand years worth of theology. Fucking hell, just read Job.
>
Wrong, what God creates is not perfect. His goal was not perfection. Because He is perfect, He can do so.
There are no 'laws of the universe', also.
>
No, it is not hypocritical or contradictory, you fucking idiot, you're just theologically illiterate. No, God does give 'preferential treatment'.
Prayer is not meaningless, in public or in private. Holy fucking shit, you are a joke.
>>9917291
He sounds like a damn high schooler. No one sincerely going through a philosophy degree is this stupid. They all drop out.
>>9917294
Suffering is God's doing, brainlet.

>>9917298
Prayer is not done for God you fucking brainlet, it's done for oneself. In addition, it causes one to focus themselves onto God and ignore distractions.
>>9917357
Nonsense, God is not magical or in the sky. Go back to /r/eddit. He is the source and cure of suffering. He is so often anything but comforting, but so often comforting also. He is an awful God.

>>9917366
>arguments are good because my autism sed so

>>9917377
>applying your reddit 'morality' to God, a being beyond possible comprehension
What a cop-out. Why are you so afraid of theology?

>>9917423
God is good and evil, and beyond good and evil.

>>9917449
>Go back to /r/eddit.
>He is an awful God.
how could somebody be so retarded? it is almost impressive

>>9917454
Back to /r/eddit, illiterate child.

>>9917445
>There are no 'laws of the universe', also.
Gravity is just a theory bro!
Mathematical proofs don't real bro!

>>9917449
>He is an awful God.
God cannot be awful because God is perfect, moron.

>>9917456
Back to /r/eddit, illiterate child.

>>9917458
It's not a theory, it's an irrelevant meme.
Proof doesn't exist, it is also an irrelevant meme.
>>9917460
You don't know what 'awful' means, clearly. Back to /r/eddit

>>9917462
Cogito ergo sum my friend. You can prove you exist, therefore proof exists.

>>9917460
>awful
>awe-ful
Your attachment to social connotations rather than etymology will present substantial barricades to reasoning in your life.

>the problem of evil: ramble edition

>>9917379
What makes you think I'm bitter or resentful?

>>9917452
What other kind of morality could I apply to God other than one a human imagined? Or did God tell you what is right and wrong from his point of view directly?

>>9917449
So what do you get out of prayer that you can't get out of meditation, if it's done purely for yourself?

>>9917442
Y tho?
>>9917451
Still nothing.
>>9917382
We're reaching levels of non-argument etc.

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>>9917281
You do know about the fall of man, do you not?

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Woah guys, I just realised that, in the bible, humans sacrifice things to god right?

But god doesn't NEED sacrifices!!! He's all powerful!

That does not make sense! Why would an all powerful god who created the sacrifices and the sacrificers need you to sacrifice animals for him? He could just do it himself!

>>9917510
The only way this makes sense is to consider God as a representation of all reality (i.e., the "other" side of alterity), not a personified being within or in control of reality.

Is this not blasphemous to most Christian denominations?

>>9917281
If you would just read the Bible (or hell, even Paradise Lost) your entire "argument" would fall to pieces because it's based on false assumptions and general ignorance of Christianity.

Also, who do you think is qualified to decide if God's creations are perfect? Isn't that completely subjective and are we not all fallen?

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>>9917515
That doesn't even address the same issues as the anon you were responding to, so I'm just going to try and rebut you.

I'm gonna refer to /co/, because that's probably where you are mentally. Eternity exists in Marvel Comics as a representation of all reality, and also as a personified being within the universe. Pic related should make this clear. If the sort of mouth-breathers who read comics are capable of understanding that duality, why can't you?

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>>9917445
>Suffering is God's doing, brainlet.
Prove it. And especially prove how suffering is undesirable (ie not part of the road to union/atonement).

>>9917281
You're just a brainlet stirring up the brainlets OP. Study for a few more years and not just theology. Bad job bad effort.

>>9917533
>Also, who do you think is qualified to decide if God's creations are perfect? Isn't that completely subjective and are we not all fallen?
Did he not himself declare it Good? And would this not also include the Fall? So why redeem?

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>>9917551
>So why redeem?
It's almost as if Christ 'for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man'.

>>9917551
So what's the problem?

>>9917547
I love the irony here in insinuating that comics are immature but that you are sure they can teach the Christian concepts in one panel. Is there a comic form of the Bible?

Anyway, I think it does address the other anon's post.
>But god doesn't NEED sacrifices!!! He's all powerful!
Which is true, so like prayer the sacrifice is for your own benefit. Delaying gratification or literally being able to give up something good to get another thing is a way of "winning" against the other player in the cosmic game, i.e., the environment and circumstances you face. But I am asking: Is this view of the moral/practical teachings of the Bible not shunned by most traditional denominations of Christianity? Do they literally see sacrifice as an offering to a personified being ala Eternity?

>>9917562
So God fucked up and then tried to fix it? Or the whole story of Fall and Redemption was what he was after all along?

>>9917565
The problem is that God doesn't seem to think there is a problem, but I do.

>>9917547
>that pic
>heroes represent Stirner egoism, even against God

I want to read this. Even if it is laughable, no one wins against death.

>>9917281
Honest questions, how much theology have you read?
I'll assume none.

>>9917298
If God has to make you a better person, then you're not a better person.

You have to make yourself a better person for it to be worth shit.

Course he already knows. You aren't a naughty child trying to hide shit from his Father. You're a person, admitting to reality that you've not worked in accordance with natural law. Not so reality can forgive you, but so that you can be better next time.

Why are you even discussing this here? You have at most a first-year undergrad understanding of this issue. Go read something before you start giving me these fedora-tier arguments.

>>9917472
You are painfully stupid. I am not your friend. I would throw you under a bus if it meant keeping my big toe undamaged.
>>9917485
Right and wrong are only known to God. You're projecting, you heretic.

>>9917580
Well that makes sense, considering you're fallen.

You should look into the theory of "fortunate fall" or something similar. Consider that by falling we are now given the opportunity to rise to a more perfect state of happiness than if we had stayed in Paradise. Your current misery brings your potential happiness to new heights.

>>9917489
Meditation is for heathens (nu-males, pagans, etc.)
I am not to focus on killing le ego XDDDDD, I am to focus on God.
>>9917492
Still no argument from you, redditor. Arguments are not good, argue otherwise f'dora.

>>9917281
>The underlying premises that God is absolutely perfect, omnipresent, omnipotent etc must be true. God has to be perfect for God to be God.
Sure.
>People who pray for God to make their situation better, help poor people, those starving, to end conflicts, improve health etc implies that God is not perfect because he has allowed such things to occur in the first place.
God being perfect does not mean that he can't allow people to suffer. God is perfectly good but that does not mean he is "good to everyone" or that he does not have other facets of his being.
>The only things God has created are those that are perfect.
Wrong.
>I'm not fully research in this area, but from my knowledge they are things such as; the laws of the universe, freedom of will, our consciousness or the life that powers our consciousness, etc. Such things you can't make more perfect.
I don't know why you would think that. Human life decays and ends, for example. Freedom of the will doesn't exist.
>Asking for for help from God therefore is hypocritical and contradictory; both in the sense that it is implied he is not perfect and that to grant your prayers at the expense of others would be preferential treatment - which is not an attribute of a perfect God.
Yes it is. God treats people preferentially. You're taking the term "God" and using it to say something that people don't actually mean when they say "God." God chose the Jews. God chose to save those who follow Christ. God loved Jacob but hated Esau, even before Esau was born. Et cetera.
>Also: as an additional point. Jesus expressly condemned man to call other men their master; to engage in meaningless incantations and rituals; worship in churches and services, but rather in spirit and in private; and violence, imprisonment, judgement etc.
This is getting silly.

>>9917515
No you fucking idiot, God doesn't need sacrifices anymore post-Christ. He was exactly that final sacrifice, that He created and sacrificed Himself.
Before that, sacrifice was to be pious, not to 'feed' Him as Pagans did with their icons.

>>9917591
>Why are you even discussing this here? You have at most a first-year undergrad understanding of this issue. Go read something before you start giving me these fedora-tier arguments.
You don't HAVE to engage with them, anon. You are delivering completely contradictory messages by saying to fuck off but also responding with useful information.
>If God has to make you a better person, then you're not a better person.
But isn't the whole notion of Grace that it is God and only God who ultimately has the power to "lift you up by your bootstraps"?
>>9917591
>You're a person, admitting to reality that you've not worked in accordance with natural law. Not so reality can forgive you, but so that you can be better next time.
Sounds like cognitive-behavioral therapy to me.

>>9917548
Suffering is not undesirable, it is highly desirable.
>prove it
It is evident to any Christian.

>>9917600
>Right and wrong are only known to God.
What about Moses and the Ten Commandments?
>Consider that by falling we are now given the opportunity to rise to a more perfect state of happiness than if we had stayed in Paradise.
How can something be more perfect than Paradise?
>>9917604
You're sidestepping. What does focusing on God do/give/accomplish that meditation does not?
>>9917610
Got it, so we no longer need to sacrifice. Noted. Are you sure this is right?

>>9917580
Stop trying to apply human logic and psychology to God. You cannot even see that you are fallen, that is why you do this. You cannot even begin to grasp God, yet you forget that.
Christians realize that God is both so far beyond yet so close. We may not comprehend Him, and by realizing this we begin to comprehend Him.

>>9917591
You are not good. No one is good without God. You are the undergrad here, child.

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>>9917571
I was simply using the idea of Eternity to demonstrate that there is no inherent contradiction in God being both "a representation of all reality" and "a personified being within or in control of reality".

You're understanding of sacrifice as being beneficial due to abstinence is best expanded through the sacrifice of Isaac(Genesis 22). The fundamental conflict in a religion is that it needs to provide both a structure for society, and a source of spiritual fulfillment. In the case of sacrifice(or fasting in the case of Christianity) it's the act of giving something up in exchange for fulfillment. It just happens to be easier to rationalise if you're claiming(including to yourself) to make the sacrifice for religious reasons. These ideas (and accepting the contradictions within)are inherent in the acceptance of the role of religion in a well functioning society(we're still operating under ingrained Christian values today to ensure we don't kill each other).

>>9917584
I'm pretty sure the source is the infinity war tpb, it's pretty good desu(certainly among the best the artform has produced). Thanos is egoism taken to the extreme.

>>9917624
>What about Moses and the Ten Commandments?
Guidelines, incredibly simple ones at that, derived from Jewish laws. These are not 'right and wrong', but what is to be done to avoid a life of sin.
>What does focusing on God do/give/accomplish that meditation does not?
Everything you stupid fucking pagan. One involves experiencing even an Augenblick of God, while the other is narcissism.

>>9917600
>You are painfully stupid. I am not your friend. I would throw you under a bus if it meant keeping my big toe undamaged.
Woah. So this is what an argument looks like.

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>>9917633
*your not you're

>>9917633
Fuck off, GAYmer.

>>9917638
Arguments are irrelevant.

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>>9917624
>How can something be more perfect than Paradise?
You need to experience a low point to enjoy a high point. That's how humans work.

>>9917624
Heaven is more perfect than Paradise. When Adam and Eve lived in Paradise they no knowledge of their happiness because they had no knowledge of misery, death, sin, etc. Just like you can't have day without night, something without nothing, light without darkness, and so on, you can't have true perfect happiness without experiencing misery.

>>9917628
>We may not comprehend Him, and by realizing this we begin to comprehend Him.
No, all you comprehend is that comprehension is not possible. What do you gain from this?
>>9917633
>it's the act of giving something up in exchange for fulfillment.
This sort of metaphor doesn't need actually God to literally exist, which is why I made my earlier point about it not actually being in line with traditional Christianity. Right? The Bible is just metaphor for pragmatic ways of living, and some people NEED to believe it to engage with those behaviors, but it's not strictly necessary. We can move into secular humanism seamlessly, right?
>>9917637
>One involves experiencing even an Augenblick of God, while the other is narcissism.
Ooooh, sounds fancy. How do you tell the difference?

>>9917649
>>9917658
Ah, sounds like Zen. So is Heaven a place where evil does not exist? Then how could one be happy there?

>>9917660
You're illiterate, good job.
God does literally exist. No, the Bible is not a metaphor, it is literal. Stop perverting it to fit your disgusting humanist ideology.

Reading some of the shit in this thread is embarrassing.

>>9917665
"no"
Not an argument. So do you disagree that the point of sacrifice is about the lesson of giving something up in exchange for fulfillment? Is it actually an appeal to God?

>>9917633
>I'm pretty sure the source is the infinity war tpb
>Thanos is egoism taken to the extreme.

I hope the Avengers arc of MCU doesn't end with a deus ex machina. Probably gonna be some Gollum-on-the-precipice moment where he destroys himself.

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>>9917668
>I'm better than all of you but I'm not going to say why or how.
I bet that felt nice for you, anon. We all love a good wank!

>>9917673
>Arguments are good becuz i sed so
Fuck off, Pagan, I have no reason to deal with you trash.

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>>9917660
>What do you gain from this?
Around as much as you gain from Plato describing the unknowability of the forms.

>We can move into secular humanism seamlessly, right?
If you can solve the problem of onboarding every single person into a belief system where every human has value, without the supernatural soul, then we sure can. Until then, we're stuck with religion, and Christianity seems to do a pretty good job of ensuring each human has value(and encouraging art, there was a good thread on that recently).

>How do you tell the difference?
One is for gratification, the other is for fulfillment.

>>9917664
If you're genuinely interested in understanding this idea, read The Last Battle(yes, Narnia).
>And as He spoke, He no longer looked to them like a lion; but the things that began to happen after that were so great and beautiful that I cannot write them. And for us this the end of all the stories, and we can most truly say that they all lived happily ever after. But for them it was only the beginning of the real story. All their life in this world and all their adventures in Narnia had only been the cover and the title page: now at last they were beginning Chapter One of the Great Story which no one on earth has read: which goes on for ever: in which every chapter is better than the one before.

>>9917665
>t. evangelical

>>9917676
Since Dr Strange showed they're never going full mystical, I think we're fairly safe from a deus ex machina. Squirrel Girl ex machina wouldn't surprise me tho.

>>9917682
>won't
More like "can't". Whatever floats your boat, captain.

>>9917686
>If you can solve the problem of onboarding every single person into a belief system where every human has value
You honestly think Christianity is doing this properly, even now? I don't see evidence for that, and especially not the hope of global conversion. Ah, but that's the other guys fault, right? Not the belief system itself?

The Narnia stories are sweet, but doesn't really address the metaphysical contradiction here:
>Just like you can't have day without night, something without nothing, light without darkness, and so on, you can't have true perfect happiness without experiencing misery.
>in which every chapter is better than the one before.
So presumably they are going through bouts of intense misery before each upscale of happiness then?

>>9917678
What can you say? OP talks about Jesus while saying God doesn't treat people preferentially. How do you respond to something like that?

>>9917695
>How do you respond to something like that?
Why did you want to respond at all? What bothers you about those positions? If you can't be bothered going into it, fine. But then why post what you did? You wanted all the benefit of superiority without any of the effort.

>>9917701
>What bothers you about those positions?
It's wrong to the point of absurdity.
>You wanted all the benefit of superiority without any of the effort.
Yes, I feel very superior about my anonymous post on a Bangladeshi puppet-carving forum.

>>9917708
>Yes, I feel very superior about my anonymous post on a Bangladeshi puppet-carving forum.
In yourself you do. I mean, I could be wrong. But I bet as you typed and clicked "post," fuck yes you did.

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>>9917694
>You honestly think Christianity is doing this properly, even now?
Not really, but I think it will adapt to modern society, in the same way that it adapted to feudal society after the fall of Rome(remember, Napoleon/Feudalism fell just over 200 years ago, the modern era still isn't fully formed). Anyway, my argument was that we need a religion to do that, not necessarily Christianity.

>but doesn't really address the metaphysical contradiction here
I sort of recommended you read the whole book. It's basically C.S. Lewis's take on revelations, and explores his understanding of heaven and the afterlife. If it was able to be entirely summarised in two paragraphs, he wouldn't have published the rest.

>>9917714
Fair enough and fair enough. Cheers anon.

God gives people free will, and with that, comes suffering, as people turn to sin, but free will is worth the reward anyways. However, got also gives you the oppertunity to fix the suffering caused by the flaws of man through prayer. Despite humanity causing suffering in the world, god is still willing to lend a hand to humanity in his mercy.

>People saying prayer is really just about self-reflection

Lol no god answers prayers

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>>9917737
Assuming you're the same guy, I'm happy to admit that your points were all reasonable, in the context of solely today's state of affairs.

>>9917603

This is absurd. It cannot be more perfect, as per definition of the word and basal quality of the idea. Also, why believe that the entity who is tormenting you will ever stop?

>>9917453
>christian apology so desperate that it resembles inane paganism and neetzschean platitudes

>>9917615

Can you tell us about your suffering and your relation to it?

really connected my usb

>>9917649

This is absurd. If anything, it's the other way around. The only empirical marker of "how humans work" in relation to suffering is that intense and/or sustained suffering is "mentally entropic", if you will. Something you would've known for yourself had you experienced anything more harrowing than having a singular victory instead of a double one.

>>9917281
I think the least contradictory interpretation of the bible is to view it as folklore. :p

Maybe god has better shit to do than babysitting each and every person, but if you ask him nicely he can't say no.

>>9917658
>you can't have day without night, something without nothing, light without darkness

Yeah you can. For example, your argument is really bad and it would be bad even in a hypothetical state of affairs where no good arguments existed, i.e. this thread.

>>9917628

Why should anyone listen to you when you say that God is unknowable? You're either 100% wrong in everything you say about God or 100% lying.

>>9917876
More "perfect" happiness as in able to achieve a higher state of happiness. Fallen men are capable of achieving a higher state of happiness than even the angels who stayed loyal to God. I don't understand what's hard to grasp about that.

>>9917970

This "God's" thinking sounds like the worst thing possible. What's hard to grasp is why would anyone or anything accept it.

>>9917976
I'm an atheist. People accept it because it gives their life meaning. I enjoy it because it's beautiful and interesting.

>>9917950
>Maybe god has better shit to do than babysitting each and every person

A perfect God wouldn't be lazy. Its one of the seven capital sins. Not only would God not be lazy, he would not answer some prayers and not others. If he is perfect, omnipresent and omnipotent this can't hold true.

>>9917996
Both of you have a Reddit level understanding of Christianity. Why do you think your criticisms of Christianity hold any weight when you clearly have not read any of the literature?

Religion itself is a massive contradiction.
>but who created God
DD_D_D_D_DDINDU NUFFIN CREATED NUFfin OUT OF HIMSELF

>>9917281
>Just realised that 'prayer' is a massive contradiction to religion.
It's not. That you created this thread thinking you made some great discovery is somewhat cringeworthy. That you can't even imagine a scenario that agrees with your premises and yet does not create the contradiction proves your mind is either mediocre at best or just very immature. Also, the fourth paragraph does not follow from the first three. Finally, you clearly have no clue what Jesus taught at all because your summary of it is complete hogwash.

How come theists arguments often boil down to
>OMG you're such an undergrad read the scipture derpherp
rather than pointing out the actual mistakes in OP's reasoning?
The nature of prayer is a real issue in theology and far from being as trivially solvable as you guys/girls are pretending.

>>9917281
You fundamentally do not understand what prayer is for.

>>9917454
You don't know what the word "awful" means do you?

>>9917996
Just because he's perfect doesn't mean he's got to care about your shit.

>>9918067
Because the "Christian apologists" in this thread are just LARPers. They want the status that comes with associating oneself with an ancient and intellectually-rich religious tradition, but have no coherent understanding of that tradition. A genuine believer would be able to explain his position patience and kindness, whereas the LARPer's faith is so fragile that he must deflect scrutiny through hostility and condescension.

>People who pray for God to make their situation better, help poor people, those starving, to end conflicts, improve health

That's not the point of prayer. Do you know anything about religion or are you taking that shit out of your ass?

>>9917991

What meaning does total abjection with no hope of respite provide?

>>9918489
Don't bother with him, he's fucking retarded.

>>9918489
Eternal salvation.

>>9919014

Why would you believe the entity that has thrown you away will ever save you?

>>9917453
God is good. Get you pagan views out of here.

>>9917629
This.

>>9917996
>he would not answer some prayers and not others.
>Prayers from other people are never contradictory

What about when both opponents in a war believe God is on their side?

>>9918260
>>9918347
Hey babies, why don't you try a little thinking exercise and actually try explaining what it IS for then? Go on.

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/lit/ is so easy to bait. Good job OP.

>>9917686
I'm only evangelical in the sense that I spread Good News.
You, on the other hand, pervert all news to fit a disgusting ideology.
Now fuck off back to your containment board.
>>9917688
No child, won't. You are intellectual deadweights.
>>9917714
It will not adapt, rather it will burn down 'modern society'. The Antichrist will not live.

>>9919553
Why don't you read the Bible.

>>9917881
This isn't apologetics, this is the actuality of God.
>>9917962
You are illiterate. Reread the post. God is both transcendent and immanent; unknowable and knowable. Only we who have received the Spirit can find their way.

>>9917996
God does not tend those that reject Him. It is their duty to find Him, and then His to keep you close.

>>9918036
God has always existed, redditor.
>>9918067
Dozens of have done exactly that you illiterate retard. Also, one cannot say anything without reading scripture. He has not, so he cannot speak. When he speaks, it is our duty to call him out.

Would you allow an unread 11-year-old boy to give a lecture on QM?

>>9919492
I'm not the pagan, you are. You reduce God.

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>>9919900

>>9917281
FREE WILL. God permits us to do everything we want but with consequences. Prayers can save us, ease a situation that is affected or been the effect of the exercise of free will of others.

You're in community college aren't you? What a waste of money.

>>9917366
>complaining about lack of arguments after making this post>>9917357

I hate to break it to you, but if you want an argument then you have to make one

Wow, this God guy is actually pretty cool!

There's no sense in pointing out logical contradictions in any religion. They have mental gymnastics prepared for every contingency.

>>9920754

> There's no sense in pointing out logical contradictions in denying a first cause. They have mental gymnastics prepared for every contingency.

>>9919903

The transcendent-immanent and unknowable-knowable dialectic is fundamentally human logic, as is everything you said in your previous reply: >>9917628

>Stop trying to apply human logic
>Christians realize that
>tfw you're inadvertently suggesting that christians are subhuman

I fin it hilarious how many posters on lit look down on each other and paint themselves as intelligent and then post about a medieval superstitions as though they were fact. Religion shows a complete absence of reason and logic and a can only be believed in by an entirely closed mind.

As I gather it, prayer is the physical demonstration of faith in a God by adjusting your physical actions to its acknowledgement. Prayer has no actual meaning, but that's the point.

>>9920940
This. The cornerstone of Christianity is the Bible, and that is the biggest crock of shit I've ever read.
>ONLY 8 PEOPLE SURVIVED THE GREAT FLOOD
>bible states we're all descendents of people who died in the great flood
It truly is amazing how it can contradict itself and people have overlooked it for thousands of years, simply because it doesn't align with their beliefs. That's why religious fags are so shit.

>>9920973
>contradiction
No such thing exists in scripture, idiot.

>>9920925
Yes, and God is beyond that dialectic. Stop your shit, illiterate.
>>9920940
Facts don't exist. 'muh raisins n lawjik' are for the lowest caste of person.

>>9920754
Contradictions do not exist in religion. Stop thinking that God cares about your dualist nonsense.

>>9920986
I just told you the contradiction, I presented my evidence that shows the Bible is bull shit. The only thing you did, like every other Christian is scream back "Nuh Uh!!!"

>>9920990
It's sad that Christians are so dillusional that I can't tell if you're trolling or not. "facts don't exist" like, what? 2+2=4 that is a fact, we have actual mathematics and proofs for this. It is a fact.

>>9917281
>Also: as an additional point. Jesus expressly condemned man to call other men their master; to engage in meaningless incantations and rituals; worship in churches and services, but rather in spirit and in private; and violence, imprisonment, judgement etc.
He was against prayer in Church out of vanity. He wasn't against prayer in private.
I think prayer is more of an act for the individual being moved by God to repent. It's being able to justify to yourself that your life should be bearable, because you're performed the steps necessary for the higher power to guide you through without delivering onto you more pain than you can handle, etc.

>>9920995
Contradictions only exist to dualists. Dualists are mere autistic monkeys. You did not present any evidence, and evidence does not actually exist. Stop baiting, I've been on this horrible website since you were in kindergarten and you sure as hell aren't the first reddit LARPer I've seen.
Facts don't exist. Mathematics is not factual, that is a delusion of the autistic-monkey brain. Proof doesn't exist, that is another delusion.

>>9921000
Ignorance is bliss I suppose. Oh, just so you're aware. Genesis 4:20 - 22 clearly states that we are all descendents of Jabal and Jubal. Which were descendents of Cain. That would be impossible seeing how everyone except Noah and crew died in the flood. But yes, we're all descendents of people who couldn't possibly have had any descendents. That makes about as much sense as you're 0 facts theory, and throwing a tantrum saying "YOU JUST DONT UNDERSTAND GODS WAYS" is some retard level of mental gymnastics. You're the type of guy that can't answer why the sky is blue and then responds "It, just is, no one knows why."

>>9921018
You are the ignorant; so ignorant that you are ignorant of your ignorance. Stop baiting, nobody is listening. Pathetic sops like you are abandoned.

>>9921028
Thank nom existent god. I'll gladly spend eternity in hell if it means never having to deal with circular logic like this. I don't know if this is 10/10 tier bait or 0/10 tier bible belt, incest affected retardation. Still haven't answered how it is possible to be a descendent of someone who's lineage was wiped out.

>>9921028

lol no, you sound crazy

>>9921034
Stop baiting, child.
KJV:
>20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
>21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
>22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.

NRSV:
>Adah bore Jabal; he was the ancestor of those who live in tents and have livestock. 21 His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the ancestor of all those who play the lyre and pipe. 22 Zillah bore Tubal-cain, who made all kinds of bronze and iron tools. The sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah.

No where does it say that, "we are all descendents of Jabal and Jubal."
>>9921036
Nobody cares what you think, heretic.

>>9921047
How is it possible for them to have descendents at all? They shouldn't exist. They are descendents of Cain and the ONLY lineage thay survived the flood was Noah's. All of Cain's descendents should have been wiped out as well, seeing how NONE of them were on the ark. So either 1 of 3 things happened.

1. The great flood didn't kill everyone - which contradicts the Bible

2. The great flood didn't cover the entire earth and others were spared - which contradicts the Bible

3. The Bible is bull shit and the idiots who wrote it couldn't go back 15 pages to fact check their own bull shit and wrote in a bunch of contradictions into the Bible.

Literally any way you look at that, the Bible is bull shit and the only thing Christians can say is "God works on mysterious ways." Which is a cop out answer, confessing you have no idea what you're talking about.

-If someone came out tomorrow and claimed to be the second coming of Christ, all the same people who try to shove religion down your throat would call them a madman and go against the very idea of 'faith' by demanding some kind of proof. But why? They quite happily put their faith in what men wrote two thousand years ago. Why? were people more honest back then? No. People have always been devious and tried to bend people to their will. Which is exactly the way all religious people look at every other religion. As ridiculous lies.

-Religion claims to give people morals, and completely miss the point that doing something for the reward of heaven or to avoid the punishment of hell is not doing something for a moral reason, but rather for a reward. The very opposite of morals.

-Over the years, believers have begun to appropriate the book to seem a little less backwards. You can't go to hell for eating meat on a Friday because that's just silly. Gays no longer burn in hell because that makes us sound barbaric and so on. Surely we can just start to look at the whole book the same way.

-If a man killed his son tomorrow because 'god told him to' would religious people praise this man and write parables about him, or call him evil and mad?

-Go in any church or look at any crucifix and see a pale faced, straight haired Jesus. I know there are an awful lot of racists on 4chan so this is the one that probably really stings. THERE IS A ZERO PERCENT CHANCE THAT JESUS WAS WHITE! If a white man was born in that region of the world at that time, then that was his first miracle. So the claim by Christians that they can accept Jesus into their heart is nonsense. They can accept him, but not the way he was.

-They claim we are all living out gods plan. Then someone who goes on to kill someone was always going to, no matter what. You can't say to the victims family that god has a plan but say that the killer is evil. He is enacting gods plan. But they will burn in hell for it.

-And hell itself. We are told the devil is bad and no renounce him, yet god himself has a deal with him where he sends all the bad eggs to him.

-Thousands of years of child rape and support of various genocides by the people who preach this religion to us are hardly the actions of hell fearing men who believe in the ten commandments.

-The biggest cop out ever is to say things like, he's mysterious or you shouldn't question him. You all question all the thousands of other gods invented over human history, but by the pure geographical accident of being born to a country or family that happen to brainwash you with one particular god, believe wholeheartedly that you are correct.

-Just look at 4chan. Why do Christians always act in the most unchristian and judgemental manner, directly against the teaching of their book.

Yes its fair to say that religion is one big fucking contradiction. It goes against our very instincts to understand and question things and as such holds us back.

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>Open the Dhammapada
>" What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow; our life is the creation of our mind."
>[400+ verses of contemplative life-improving wisdom]


>Open the Bible
>A fucking talking snake
>"Mutilate your penis for me. t.hashem"

people DIED over this

>>9921056
More baiting. Go back to /r/eddit, child.
They have no descendants, the word is not being used in the biological sense.
Plato descends from Socrates despite the two not being related as far as I know.
Why does this go so far above your head, stupid child? Could it be that you're a troll?
>>9921058
Go back to /r/eddit, worthless brat.
>
The Antichrist would be the exact type to claim to be Christ. The Bible is the Logos, not the claims of a human.
>
Religion cannot make claims. It does not live. Regardless of your horrific grammar mistake, morality does not exist as a relevant thing. Morality is what petty humanists like you project onto God. The term is used by Christians, but should not be. No Christian is trying to be moral, merely Good.
>
No, those laws are Jewish laws. Unrepenting sodomites still burn (as will you). Stop baiting, it is terribly obvious.
>
Abraham did not kill his son.
>
Fallacy, as if 'any church' is somehow valid. Also, Christ could have easily been white. I think you're ignoring that God is omnipotent
>
Wrong. Murder is not a part of God's plan, it is merely an action that he has predicted. Please stop baiting and read some theology, compatibalism has been accepted theology for a long time now.
>
Hell is not a place where God sends people, but rather a place where people send themselves for rejecting God.
>
What rapes and genocides do you speak of? How is this not fallacious? Rejecting God is a far greater crime, which you are guilty of.
>
No, it's called fidelity. Stop shitposting. You believe countless things because you were born a disgusting Western pig, I on the otherhand came to find God through revelation.
>
Another fallacy, wonderful. As if a disgusting slave to the Antichrist could possibly comprehend Christianity. And no, that's not a cop-out. That is the truth.
>>9921062
More bad bait. Please, go back to /r/eddit.

>>9921071
You can trace the lineage. Jubal and Jabal are not related to Noah, which again is biblically impossible. I'm not a troll, I want to you to answer these questions. That's why I'm still here. If I was a troll I would have gotten bored with your half ass answers and left. I'm genuinely curious how you explain these contradictions. We know there are places on this planet that were never covered with water through geologic research, which is pretty heavily leaning towards the "Bible is bullshit" theory.

>>9921076
Yes, you are a troll. I have answered you fully, you are just illiterate, and a troll.
Contradictions do not exist, stop stroking your ego.
>muh STEM memes
Nobody cares. STEM is yet another tool of the Antichrist.
Please, consider just ending it now.

>>9921071Literally, the funniest thing I have ever read on 4chan. Not following the turn the other cheek rule then, choirboy?

>>9921071
Did Noah take more than two mosquitos. They only live one day. Just curious.

>>9921080
Turning the other cheek does not mean being a passive tool, like you. Nor is it a rule. Go back to /r/eddit, you illiterate. Are you fucking 12 or something?

>>9921071
Apparently Jesus will also come back one day and claim to be Jesus. If it's between him and the antichrist, puts you lot in a tight spot. Make sure you back the right one buddy.

>>9921082
Irrelevant. You don't seem to understand the purpose of the parable. You're the same sort of tool that thinks that Job is 'FUKKIN BULLSHIT NOT SCIENCE WTF I FUKKIN LOVE SCIENCE' because you do not understand theodicy and the purpose of punishing him.

>>9921079
So you're going to dismiss thousands of years of collected evidence just because "It's dah devil!!"? Being willfully ignorant is a sin and you will burn for it.

>>9921084
Such a christian response. Santa would be so proud of you.

>>9921088
Are you fucking stupid? Do you not understand what the Holy Spirit is?
The Antichrist is already here, and you are a part of it. Holy fucking shit, can't you read, or understand allegory? Are you fucking 12? No, because I've been extremely close with several girls that age, and all of them have better reading comprehension than you.
You need to go back.

>>9921084
Does turning the other cheek involve name calling? Can't recall Jesus doing a lot of that. I think we're supposed to believe he faced a bit more hardship than a debate on 4chan.

>>9921093
You don't need to get so upset. He will be punished with ever lasting damnation or whatever it is. What kind of god needs a crybaby like you fighting his corner?

>>9921091
Evidence doesn't exist. It's a myth made up by pagans. I didn't say 'its dah devil!' you illiterate tool, I said it is the tool of the Antichrist, that which seeks to usurp the King. Weak-minded children like you and so many others are easily manipulated into following, and then being manipulated into thinking you are free. You are a slave, you will die a slave, you will walk yourself past Hell's gates as a slave. Yet, the whole time, you will think you are free. This is the punishment that those who reject Christ receive.
>>9921092
More of your lame rhetoric. You need to go back. You have to be 18 to post here.

>>9921093
Name calling while asking someone else if their twelve? Hmmm

>>9921096
So hiding in your own tiny fantasy world, plugging your ears and going "nah nah nah nah nah nah" is the way to get into heaven? Noted, thanks Jesus for telling all of your followers to remain idiots. I guess that's the only way to collect tax free donations for your fraudulent belief, is to have thralls of idiots who blindly follow you.

>>9921094
I am not here to appease you. Turning the other cheek involves not lowering oneself to the level of a heretic. I have not, because I have not resorted to using lame rhetoric.
>>9921095
Of course a child would not understand apologetics.
>>9921098
Yes, you are 12. This cannot be name-calling, rather it is calling you by your name: heathen; tool; slave.

>>9921096
I don't need to do anything you tell me. That's more your thing, doing as your told. Even by sexually repressed, homophobic, misogynistic arabs writing two thousand years ago and passing it over as gods word so people would actually listen. Well, stupid people.

>>9921096

Look man I know we all like false flagging as retarded Christian traditionalists every once in a while but you got to step back from it now lmao

>>9921103
You are the thrall, and you will burn as a thrall. Those who resort to lame rhetoric, those who can only lie when they speak, are damned.
You are the idiot, because you are blind to your idiocy. You are the idiot, because you succumb to the claims of the Antichrist.

>>9921105
Child blah blah, 12 year old blah blah. All from the guy who believes in shit that Tolkien would think was too far fetched with too many holes to be considered a good story.

>>9921106
You are the slave, not me. Stop baiting, we all see through you.
>>9921108
Yes yes child, anybody you dislike is just false-flagging.
>>9921111
Stop baiting, you are too obvious. Go back. I'm going to stop appeasing you now, hopefully you'll kill yourself, you needy child.

>>9921105
I know you are blind to facts, but calling someone fucking stupid or even insinuating it is name calling and you should go and say ten hail marys

>>9921114
Hopefully you kill yourself. Wow you really have learned a lot from being a Christian haven't you. God just saw you type that, and he's pissed.

>>9921111
By the way, the Bible is not a story, nor one book. This is why you are clearly baiting, because that detail is incredibly common knowledge. Do not mistake me responding to you as buying your nonsense. You are the sort of person that would be skipped over at the food-bank.
>>9921116
Facts don't exist, they're myths for the idiots of the world. You need to go back.

>>9921123
You've been saying I need to go back for some time. It's not happened. Obviously it's not part of gods plan. Shouldn't you be accepting of that?

>>9921110
I don't understand how evidence is lame rhetoric when you've provided nothing but "Just believe bro" as your entire argument.

>>9921123
Facts don't exist? Certainly not in your world.

>>9921128
>>9921129
>>9921130
You need to go back

>>9921131
Pray for it. That usually solves everything.

>>9921131
Where would I go back to?

>>9921111
God saw fit to give you quads bro!

>>9921096
Please remember to uphold rule 6.

>>9917281

God is omniscient and omnipotent, all external circumstances are his will - therefore, discontent and even depression are blasphemy. Prayer exists for our benefit, and ought only to be used to express love, gratitude or repetance.

>"When we are invited to a drinking-party we enjoy what is before us, and if one should bid his host to serve him fish or cakes he would be thought absurd. Yet in the world we ask the gods for what they do not give us, and that although they hsave given us many things." - Epictetus

While God controls external circumstances and puts them beyond our control, only man can control his thoughts, opinions and actions. To put it succinctly, external circumstances are beyond our control, but how we react to them is entirely in our power.

>do you also having observed these things look to the faculties which you have, and when you have looked at them, say: "Bring now, O Zeus, any difficulty that Thou pleasest, for I have means given to me by Thee and powers for honoring myself through the things which happen." You do not so; but you sit still, trembling for fear that some things will happen, and weeping, and lamenting and groaning for what does happen: and then you blame the gods. For what is the consequence of such meanness of spirit but impiety? And yet God has not only given us these faculties; by which we shall be able to bear everything that happens without being depressed or broken by it; but, like a good king and a true father, He has given us these faculties free from hindrance, subject to no compulsion unimpeded, and has put them entirely in our own power, without even having reserved to Himself any power of hindering or impeding. You, who have received these powers free and as your own, use them not: you do not even see what you have received, and from whom; some of you being blinded to the giver, and not even acknowledging your benefactor, and others, through meanness of spirit, betaking yourselves to fault finding and making charges against God." - Epictetus

gods don't exist.

>>9917281
prayer is just submissive meditation

>>9921423

Denial of a higher power is demonstrably irrational.

Any given thing consisting of multiple parts, considered as a whole, possesses the qualities of any given individual part, to a greater extent than that part.

For example, a car including an engine has all the qualities of a single engine alone, plus more. A human hand as a whole has all of the qualities possessed by a single finger, and even more.

Humans are an organic part of the universe that developed through evolution. Humans possess intelligence, rationality and logic. If we, who are only a tiny part of this universe, possess these qualities, then it follows that the universe considered as a whole possesses intelligence, rationality and logic to a far greater extent than we do as a mere part of it.

QED, there is a greater rational intelligence than humanity.

>>9921439

Your conception of Individuality, intelligence, rationality and logic are not definitive descriptors in any certainty to any particular substance beyond your own interpretation of them. And no one is obliged to accept your interpretation of them (or mine, or anyone else's for that matter).

The biggest contradiction of religion is when people try to sound logical in explaining it and think that their points prove it's existence. Blah blah so we must have a designer. The idea of religion is that it is a faith. If it could be proved, then it would be a fact and anyone who didn't believe it would be foolish. The same way that everything we know about our universe and everything we have learned so far points to the probability that all of the thousands of gods humans have worshipped over their history are made up, and as such it is foolish to pick one of these and believe it as being real.
Fact is, if it was not allowed to be taught to anyone until they were adults and were able to make an informed choice on the matter, religion would be gone in one generation. It exists because it is brainwashed into young children by the people they trust. No one could possibly be told about any religion at 18 for the first time and believe it without having some kind of mental imbalance. The same way parents tell their children not to run in the road or you might get hit by a car, they tell them believe in god and you won't go to hell, and by the time they have the capacity to question things, most people have too much invested in it mentally and can't accept that something that is a daily part of their life could be one big lie. But one thing they do have in common is that they look at every other god and religion as one big lie.

>>9921456

>Your conception of Individuality, intelligence, rationality and logic are not definitive descriptors in any certainty to any particular substance beyond your own interpretation of them.

In the same vein I might say that your description of my conception of Individuality, intelligence, rationality and logic is itself not a definitive descriptor in any certainty to any particular substance beyond your own interpretation. If one were to take this reasoning of yours to it's conclusion, it would follow that no one could ever accurately know anything at all. If that is the case, then you couldn't be sure of the statement you just made, and thus wouldn't and shouldn't have bothered making it at all.

But you argue nothing here. You simply make a statement without ever demonstrating the validity of it.

>And no one is obliged to accept your interpretation of them (or mine, or anyone else's for that matter).

That's where you're wrong; logic and rationality here are not subjective conceptions of my own, but universally accepted concepts.

Before the measuring of distance or weight, we settle the measure. For, unless we first determine what a meter and what a kilogram is, how shall we be able to measure or weigh? Thus, in the present case, unless we have first learnt and accurately examined reason/logic, which is the criterion of other things, and by which all other things are learnt, how shall we be able accurately to learn anything at all?

Since it is reason which sets in order and finishes all other things, it ought not itself to be left in disorder.

But by what shall it be set in order?

Evidently either by itself, or by something else.

Well: either that too is reason, or there is something else superior to reason. I know of nothing superior to reason. Do you?

>>9921439
>>9921580
this is a drawn out version of the "gods are beyond us" argument.

what we call intelligence, rationality and logic only developed because those who were smarter than the average reproduced more.

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>>9917281
>Applying human reasoning to the divine

>>9920990

What can be ascertained as "beyond" dialectic is dialectic by definition, what is beyond it cannot be ascertained. Claiming God is beyond this threshold means you know nothing of God and/or you're lying. Name one a way in which this conclusion is not true and a single reason why anyone should listen to you.

>>9921687

>this is a drawn out version of the "gods are beyond us" argument.

No it isn't, you've misconceived my argument. I am arguing that the existence of reason is proof of a higher power, not that a higher power is beyond the scope of our reason. It has no relation to the 'gods are beyond us' argument whatsoever, in fact it is almost the complete opposite of it.

>what we call intelligence, rationality and logic only developed because those who were smarter than the average reproduced more.

I've already included this as part of my argument when I mentioned evolution and development. What you describe is more of a how than a definitive why, because it is not the only factor, but one factor out of many.

And you're mistaken - this selection through reproduction only accounts for intelligence, not for reason. Rationality and intelligence are different things, and there is little to no correlation between the two.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/18/opinion/sunday/the-difference-between-rationality-and-intelligence.html?mcubz=1

>>9921705

What other reasoning could you apply? I suppose "no reasoning" is the answer for Christians...

>>9921580


We have no fundamental absolute explanations as to what reason even is because this concept is not definitive. You're applying the term in a Pareidolian fashion [to you] that is not obligatory for anyone to accept; 10 billion people could believe it and no one would still be obligated to accept it. Is-ought.

>>9917281
FUUUAARRKKKK

>>9921769

Just because you see yourself as inherently incapable of reason does not mean that I am obliged to view myself in the same manner.

Again, you are just making a statement here, not an argument. You prove nothing,

>>9921734
it accounts for literally everything, including reason.

>there is little to no correlation between the two.
there is lots of correlation between the two.

>>9921795

>it accounts for literally everything, including reason.

No it doesn't.

>there is lots of correlation between the two.

I've already posted a study which shows that there is no correlation between the two. Those with a high level of intelligence are no more likely to be rational than those who are of an average or below-average level of intelligence.

>>9921788

And just because [you] see reason as an absolute, does not mean that we are obliged to accept it.

>>9921820

The difference between us is that I have made a number of consistent arguments to support my position, while you have made no arguments at all to support yours.

>>9921808
yes it does.

you posted a jew york times article that talks about biases.

File: augustine.jpg (60KB, 513x700px) Image search: [Google]

60KB, 513x700px

>>9917281
>People who pray for God to make their situation better, help poor people, those starving, to end conflicts, improve health etc implies that God is not perfect because he has allowed such things to occur in the first place.


"God, in his providence, decided to prepare future blessings for the righteous, which the unrighteous will not enjoy, and sorrows for the ungodly, with which the good will not be tormented. But he has willed that these temporal goods and temporal evils should befall good and bad alike, so that good things should not be too eagerly coveted, when it is seen that the wicked also enjoy them, and the evils should not be discreditably shunned, when it is apparent that the good are often afflicted with them." (Augustine, City of God, Book 1 Chapter 8)

>>9921835

No it doesn't.

The article I posted summarizes a number of studies, and links downloads to complete versions of all of the studies it references. You have offered no proof for your assertion.

>>9921846
yes it does. i'm not gonna dig through your gay article, post those sources with the relevant quotes.

>>9921852

Your unwillingness to consider the evidence I present reflects moreso on you than on the quality and validitiy of my arguments.

>>9921838
And how would he know?

>>9921866
not being able to summarize your argument and expecting someone arguing with you on the internet to go through all that shit makes you look like a self important jackass though.

>>9921870
How would OP know? Or anyone? Using reason and reflection of course along with scripture and a ton of reading. I'd wager Augustine's thoughts are more competent than OP's.

>>9921882

There's no need to summarize my argument, I presented the whole thing here for you and anyone else to view >>9921439

I then elaborated on it, and presented sources to back up my claims >>9921734

Refusing to consider another persons arguments and their proofs, and then insulting that person, only serves to give credence to their arguments.

>>9921832

Okay, I'm not afraid of being wrong so i'll show you what problems I had with your original argument beyond the is-ought related issues :

>Denial of a higher power is demonstrably irrational.

I believe in God too, and that the universe has a higher intelligence.

>Any given thing consisting of multiple parts, considered as a whole, possesses the qualities of any given individual part, to a greater extent than that part.
>For example, a car including an engine has all the qualities of a single engine alone, plus more. A human hand as a whole has all of the qualities possessed by a single finger, and even more.
>Humans are an organic part of the universe that developed through evolution. Humans possess intelligence, rationality and logic. If we, who are only a tiny part of this universe, possess these qualities, then it follows that the universe considered as a whole possesses intelligence, rationality and logic to a far greater extent than we do as a mere part of it.


I can think of one example of this being incorrect, broadly, it looks correct. But say we made a tower out of wooden blocks, the tower gets more unstable the higher it gets, so yes, the tower possess SOME of the qualities of the individual parts, e.g. they are made out of wood. But the tower itself is less stable than a single solitary block.

Does this still mean the tower is greater, or do you just think that because it is taller, it must be "greater"?

Or does the tower, (which is consistent with your description of a "thing consisting of multiple parts") have attributes that swap between lesser and greater?

What is a scale of greater? How would you establish this scale, is it just quantity? That seems arbitrary, or a bit simplistic; If there is a fried shit in the universe, does that mean that the universe as a whole has a greater "fried shit quotient" than said fried shit? is that a good thing?

If there is an example of a negative quality in the universe, then does the Universe that is "Any given thing consisting of multiple parts, considered as a whole, possesses the qualities of any given individual part, to a greater extent than that part?." Get correspondingly worse? Or correspondingly better? It's Pareidolian, you're inserting patterns where there might not necessarily be anything. You expect everything to scale up linearly when it doesn't.

>>9921901
and i responded. i can shit out a dozen articles supporting my position and it wouldn't mean shit.

>>9917353
basically, yes. Prayer has the same Utilitarian benefit to a christian as meditation does in a secular way. An easing of the spirit, helping the mind come to terms with the stresses, anxieties and suffering of human life, etc.

>>9921909


>>9921915

You say you can but yet you don't. You have yet to present any proof to substantiate your claims.

>But say we made a tower out of wooden blocks, the tower gets more unstable the higher it gets, so yes, the tower possess SOME of the qualities of the individual parts, e.g. they are made out of wood. But the tower itself is less stable than a single solitary block.

Thats why towers aren't generally made out of wooden blocks. Wooden blocks without any adhesive are unstable, and many wooden blocks made into a tower are even more unstable.

> If there is a fried shit in the universe, does that mean that the universe as a whole has a greater "fried shit quotient" than said fried shit? is that a good thing?

Fried shit isn't a quality, it is the thing itself. The heat it possesses could be described as a quality, and yes, it would follow that the universe as a whole has heat to a greater extent than the single fried shit. This is neither a good nor a bad thing, just an indifferent thing, unless it so happens that the word 'shit' is amusing to you.

>>9921939

These should have been two seperate replies

>>9921939
i'm not playing your game.

>>9921982

Why didn't you say so in the first place, and we might have saved time and effort?

I consider the rules of rational discourse to be a little more serious than a game desu though.

>>9917281
Of course prayer is useless. True enlightenment is praying to yourself and and divinely answering your own prayers.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/catholic-church-sex-abuse-paedophile-criminal-injuries-compensation-scheme-victim-support-sexual-a7903396.html

So...this is the power of Catholicism...whoa...

>>9921909

Forgot to address this.

>If there is an example of a negative quality in the universe, then does the Universe that is "Any given thing consisting of multiple parts, considered as a whole, possesses the qualities of any given individual part, to a greater extent than that part?." Get correspondingly worse? Or correspondingly better?

Negative and positive in what sense? Morally, aesthetically, functionally?

Not that it matters. All such conceptions are arbitrary. By greater I simply mean more - both qualitively and quantitatively. Whether I or you ascribe these qualities with the judgement of positive or negative is totally irrelevant.

>>9921733
Oh look more autism.

>>9921742
haha reasoning is good because i have autism and think that thinkin REEEEEEL hard will solve everything1!

>>9921788
Arguments prove nothing. What the hell are you on?

>>9921832
>Consistent claims
You mean REASONABLE claims? Again, we are not obliged to accept your heathen reason-worship.

>>9921901
>WAAAH WHY WONT YOU ACCEPT MY STEM MEMES

>>9922186
>>9922177
>>9922174
Brainlets leave /lit/ at once. You've abandoned ties to logic, reason, and any other method of telling truth from superstition. Go heal cancer with your colored rocks or something.

>>9922204
You are the brainlet. Truth doesn't exist. 'muh humanist memes' are superstition.

>>9922497

>You are the brainlet. Truth doesn't exist. 'muh humanist memes' are superstition.

Truth doesn't exist, therefore your post was not true.

>>9922595
Wrong, read more epistemology. I'm making a value-statement.

>>9922595

If truth doesn't exist then the post was niether true nor false.

>>9922662

Define what a value-statement is.

>>9922706
A statement of value

>>9922714

Value in what sense? What is its value?

>>9917281
>literally doesn't understand human ignorance of the divine or how humans seek comfort from that ignorance

>>9921047
As an aside, KJV 22 and NRSV 22 don't really seem congruent. In KJV Tubalcain was a teacher of artifice where in NRSV he was the artificer himself.

>>9922714
Philosophy was a mistake.

>>9922869
>Tubalcain
oh, I remember reading this word before, this is the Freemason's secret code-word. Didn't know it was a biblical name, but hardly surprising. The author offered it without any background.

>>9922869
I was just picking the translation that was on the website and the first translation that came to my head, to refute the claim that it is 'clear'.

>>9922174
>>9922177
>be me
>say "no reasoning" as a joke
>replies actually contain no reasoning

>>9924306
yeah m8 think REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL hard yeah brother think REEEEEEEEEEEEEL hard thatll solve ALL yr problems

I think all of you should be ashamed for letting this thread escalate as it did. No one is really as retarded as the one christian pretends to be and you kept feeding him.

God suffered during the Flood, so if God is all good then one must realize that suffering is not evil. Suffering is merely a byproduct of evil. Also, if God is all powerful, why do atheists believe that he MUST answer to their moral codes. That would put the moral code above the authority of God himself, and thereby an atheist is essentially putting himself above God purely because he disagrees with what God has decided.

It is a shame that rebellious children like this cannot see that they bow to the god of axioms. (When it suits them)

God humbled himself from his place of infinite authority down to the level of his creation by letting us all choose between Him or the world with the sole condition that we must choose. (Either/Or)

I can tell immediately that nobody in this thread has thoroughly read a good Bible. (KJV pref)

>>9917298
>Go on then, please enlighten me.
You made a prison for yourself. Stop, see and choose.

>>9917480
>haha dad don't you know that faggot means bundle of sticks? so it's like I didn't swear at all! please don't spank me

>>9917281
God =/= Universe

>>9924448

No human grammar either?

>>9924579
>pretends

See: >>9917431

>>9917281
Determinism is false even in the physical realm. You can deny that, but denial is as deep as you make it.

God's design is perfect
People are not perfect
Most, if not all the problems of the world are the doings of man, if God created people for the purpose of free will, he wouldn't stop the evils that people do of their free will.

>>9924823
Indeed. However, one of the harder problems is the notion that God demands perfection from us. In principle, we can maintain some of that every now and then.

Sorry, but no matter how hard people try, you cannot sound intelligent when arguing that there is a divine being that created everything. We have come far enough and know enough about our universe and life itself to know that it's a ridiculous idea.
Most religions are of a time when we all thought the world was flat and we were the centre of the universe and as such must be here for a reason. We know enough now to know that the idea of a god creating an entire universe so that in one little speck of it he could create life, and of all that life give one species of monkey the chance of eternal life if they do everything correct is absolute madness and it is obscene that we are still having this conversation in 2017.
It is vain to think that we are so important and perfect that we must have a designer.
He's supposed to be all powerful so why do Christians protest outside of abortion clinics and the like as though he needs their help and it wasn't something he let happen.
All these arguments that he exists but lets us make choices and how much he intervenes are ideas that people have come to so that their faith seems a little less crazy when they see all of the suffering and pain in the world that are unexplainable if there were a god. Fact is, all we have is the bible and that is a horrific, bigoted nasty text written by men 2000 years ago. Everything else is just a persons interpretation of how it is supposed to be understood and as such means nothing.

>>9924995
If we have a designer, he is either incompetent on an unfathomable level, or he is an absolute madman. He's a bit mysterious doesn't quite cut it.

>>9924579
anybody i DISAGREE with is just a retard!
>>9924735
'awful' in theology still means awe-ful.
>>9924771
All grammar is human grammar.

>>9924995
STEMspergery is invalid. Nobody cares what one 'sounds' like when arguing for God.
Every claim you make is invalid. Pick up a book you fucking baitmeister.

>>9925046
Incorrect, stop projecting.

>>9924995
>Most religions are of a time when we all thought the world was flat

Any group on the Mediterrian coast probably knew the world was round by Homeric times. I'd imagine the same was true for pre-Han China, etc. Early Christians absolutely knew the world was round, as did everybody who was literate during Roman times, and probably most people who were illiterate.

>>9924830
He demands the hebrew definition of perfection that is synonymous with blameless. The same kind of perfection that was used to describe Job in Chapter 1, verse 1. (King James Version) Why would a Father (As he is called in Christianity) not demand his children be obedient? Why would a parent not discipline his children? It is written that as many as the Lord loves, he chasteneth. It is also written in Genesis "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good."

So yes, he demands a kind of perfection that pertains to blamelessness, and yes he disciplines the world like a parent would and should. I have no trouble accepting these two points because through tribulation I have learned obedience.

>"the bible" was written "2000 years ago"
>not recognizing that "the bible" is a compilation of over 60 books that have history dating back 3400 years

nice

>>9917320
>have to pray five times every day at prescribed times
>repeat an obligatory number of rakaʿāt
>the word Muslims use for prayer is "dua" which literally means "supplication"

What did you say, kafir?

>>9924995

>Most religions are of a time when we all thought the world was flat and we were the centre of the universe and as such must be here for a reason

You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

"Hence nothing could be more unscientific than your favourite assertion, that it is not certain that our world itself is round" - Cicero, 'De Natura Deorum', II. xviii - xix

The devout pagan Cicero argued, in 45 BC, that anyone who observes the motions of the stars and planets can see that the earth is a globe.

>>9917281
>implying God gives a shit about that
He don't. He almighty

>>9925731
Some of which, especially the parables, date back to parables told thousands of years before that. Torah was only recorded once the Jews were in Babylon, it existed orally for a good while before then, and no doubt contains elements from oral traditions and texts that predated the Israelites being monotheistic.