Why do undergrads think they understand a subject that JP has

/lit/ - Literature

>>9858225
Are you one of those contrarians here that pretends he is just a YouTuber when he has multiple works published? Why do you always scurry away with your tail between your legs when pressed on a series criticism?

>>9858234
I like Peterson but he is right, this site is just for literature.

>>9858214

I'm pretty sure people shit on his political/philosophical beliefs. He's a psychologist, nothing else.

Nobody's really attacking his interpretation of the big 5 personality traits here (which is actually pretty cool)

>>9858252
He has published books, it's just the undergrads have no patience for reading and prefer YouTube videos.

Are you going to willingly defer to tenured professors of sociology when it comes to social issues then?

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>dedicate years "studying" a pseudoscience

The individual is the domain of physiology and our social being is the domain of sociology, "psychology" is useless

>>9858278
Sociology is a function of psychology, so no.

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Why the fuck does Jordan Peterson think that he understands an entire fields of thought that he doesn't show to have even a SEP or wikipedia tier understanding of and whose poor thought and arguments an aspiring philosophy student in high school should be able to see through.

Whose understanding of postmodernism comes from Stephen Hicks. It deserves to be taken as seriously as a self proclaimed Aquinas scholar whose understanding of Aquinas comes from Ayn Rand.

I fucking love Peterson. He is so right about everything. Clean yo damn room lmao. Like shit. That's what the point of all this philosophy is. Learning to live in a world with other people. There is a lay understanding of postmodernism which Peterson argues against. This is not to say Peterson is in some ways not postmodern himself. But the whole idea of modernism as colonialism and postmodernism as the absence of dominance and hierarchy reflect in a very real way on youth and youth in revolt today. He offers a solution to this impasse. He has created a dialectic between these two viewpoints. Truly a Hegelian synthesizer.

>>9858278
Sociology is unique in it's lack of legitimacy.

JP is an actual idiot. He has achieved nothing.

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>>9858214
it's almost as if the validity of one's viewpoint on a given subject is not directly correlated in value with the length of time spent studying said subject!

>>9858283
Oh fucking boy, is psychologism really still a thing? Damn.

>>9859679
Anthropology is really best. Cause it's not biased solely toward our own culture like psychology or sociology. Or philosophy. Insofar as it subsumes all the liberal arts.

He is a genius and I've never heard him utter anything factually incorrect. Which book of his should I start with?

>>9859685
Anthropology is garbage and most certainly is biased. Stop sucking yourself off, Orientalist.

>>9859679
Always will be until we can exist without literally everything being funnelled through individual psyches, bucko.

>>9859740
I hope for you, that you'll grow out of your feebleminded intellectual reductionist phase, smartass. I used to be you in my late teens. Cringe.

>>9859995
Congratulations, anon! Are you open to all ideas now? That's a cool psychological trait.

That's generally what undergrad degrees try to accomplish. What is more baffling are the NEETs who think they know more than undergrads because they watched a professor on Youtube.

>>9858282
>sociology
>science

>>9858214
Pseuds.

>>9859674
Unlike you, am I right?

>>9858282
>>dedicate years "studying" a pseudoscience

This, the longer you've spent working in a quack field only lowers your credibility not raises it

>>9859669
I think you meant its? It's is a contraction of it and is.

>>9860634
Congrats pedantic bastard, you win a free cookie for that comment! Doesn't it feel good, wasting precious time of your life away LARPing as grammar nanizzu on an imageboard for frustrated loner boys in their late teens who roleplay and poster as idealized personas in an echo chamber to avoid actually growing up and face real life? It must feel good.

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reminder that clinical psychology still has merit and is certainly a science worth studying in 2017.

social psychology is questionable and can certainly be called "pseudoscience". large quantities of it are pretty useless

>>9858214
Why do people post Peterson threads when there are already multiple available to post in?

>>9858256
>his interpretation of the big 5 personality traits

what's it about, can you summarize?

>>9858214
He has studied psychology for 25 years. In the other fields he like to talk about (philosophy, history, literature, politics) he has literally no preparation, nor he has ever qualified himself through his writings.
You know what's the word for people like this? "Hack".

>>9860885
>reminder that clinical psychology still has merit and is certainly a science worth studying in 2017.

Durr if ya say so

>>9860914
yup

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>>9860914
Memersons on suicide watch

>>9860923
>he actually thinks that humans are so complex that a well-designed scientific study cannot discover any reasonably accurate data about their behaviors and internal processes

>>9860923
Look man i majored in it. It's not that hard to get a job with providing you get an MSc. Regular degree wont get you shit

i work in graphic design now though so i guess it was pretty useless in my case

>>9860942
This but unironically

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>>9860947
>Its totally a real degree and worth it
>the fact I doodle on photoshop for a living says nothing

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>>9860958
hey man im out here supporting myself. if you could make a decent living doodling on illustrator you would

i dont even care what u think of psychology you're a wasteman

>>9860910
Google it. It's one of the few personality theories/tests with pretty solid reliability and validity, while also having useful application.

>>9861000
I know big five but I'm interested in what makes Peterson's interpretation of it special

>>9858252
A majority of Peterson's ideology comes from lit approved classics.

You guys who think you are BTFO Peterson by attacking psychology look dumb, you really need to catch up on your Peterson vids he is already 10 steps ahead of you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxJzWcwcRd0
In the first 10 minutes he offers a much more intelligent critique of psychology's proper sphere of activity and displays a much more nuanced understanding of what is and isn't a science.
>Published on Dec 11 2011

How does it feel knowing that Peterson has already considered and completely dismantled all your lines of attack before you even knew he existed? This guy is like a fucking ninja, none of you shills even know what hit you LOL

>>9860984
And I don't give a single fuck what you care about, I'm here getting the truth out about your meme field regardless

>>9861005
No fucking clue. But I study in the field with professors who literally design these kind of tests in the industry (where B5 is a big deal) and I have never heard of him outside of 4chan-memes.
Take that as you may.

Looking over his bio, it seems like his entire career (or infamy) is based on being a dividing character in the weird US-American climate right now, rather than doing science.

>>9861026
>has over 8,000 citations

https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=wL1F22UAAAAJ&hl=en

Yea, what a shitty scientist.

>>9861057
>>9861057
Didn't say he was. Just that his name never really popped up as anything singularly special. If he was a teacher/professor, you'd expect him to be cited a lot.
Also Citation (or rather impact factor) isn't really the best measure of "how good" a scientist is.

Listening to the psychopathology lecture right now. Interesting stuff. But it sounds to me like American unis have some really weird conceptions of the field, if it was this necessary... Especially because he constantly refers to the DSM (rather than ICD), which is known for being flimsy af.

>>9860856
>being this mad someone points out your poor grammar
are you alright, anon? you sure seem fragile.
language in general is not your strong suit, is it?

>>9858214

Because an undergrad in philosophy does have more philosophy education than Peterson.

He may be qualified in psychology but when he pipes up on philosophy, politics sociology or his crazy conspiracy theories about Marxist university professors taking over Canada he sounds completely retarded.

>>9861057
>citations = good

Yeah and that makes Karl Marx the best "scientist" of all time

>>9860856
why you're so mad? he/she was just correcting you which is good so you don't commit the same mistake again.

any psych students here? where would a layman start with psychoanalysis? to me, peterson's politics and psychoanalysis don't seem to connect in ways he claims. need to read more to get a better understanding.

>>9861342
Yeah, here.
Don't. It's really a waste of time.
Get some book that covers both Freuds, Jung, Fromm,... the basics. Every 20 or so years, they do a cycle of changing everything about it, while some go back to the outdated "muh libido is everything and I'm not saying it's sexual, but it's totally sexual" thing, while adding a bunch of nonsense.

Analysts have been trying to use PA as a cure-all for LITERALLY everything ever since coce-nose Sigi concluded he totally killed himself on purpose.
In fact, many don't know that PA was never part of the psychological institute in Vienna. To this day. He put it with the pedagogues, because it seems he was the only one of his lot who knew to make the distinction.

>>9861810
so there's no validity to things like maps of meaning or man and his symbols vis-a-vis semiotic theory? I read Jung's dreams and was underwhelmed.

>>9861342
You have to realize psychology and psychoanalysis are two very different fields. Someone who studies psychoanlysis is more akin to a philosopher, he has an intuitive and dismally honest understanding of the human conditions, our strifes and our drives from which the theories of Freud and Lacan helped elucidate and organize.

Psychology students on the otherhand are autistic redditors too dumb and self obsessed to make it in a real science like physics or medicine so they thought they could be regarded as a doctor someday by studying what is in reality merely a thinly disguised and self promoting cult of secular liberalism. See this goober >>9861810

>>9861845
>You have to realize psychology and psychoanalysis are two very different fields.

I understand that but in university/college you can't study for a psychoanalysis degree outside of psychology can you? Just looking for an informed opinion on where to start because as I said, J-Pete doesn't add up to me but I don't know why.

>>9859641
go ahead. Explain what he misses about postmodernism. Im waiting

>>9861854
B.S. Psychology -> Med school -> Psychiatry
B.A. Philosophy -> Psy.D. -> Psychotherapy
B.S. Cognitive Science -> Lab

>>9861854
You should read a history of psychology and psychoanlysis to understand the big picture through all the splits and schools both within psychoanlysis and psychology (which is by no means a monolithic of consensus like its proselytizers will disingenously imply). I'm a huge fan of Lacan and frankly think Jungianism is an absurd joke with zero merit which is why Peterson comes off as the quack he is.

>>9861854
You can specialize in PA at most unis.

>>9861866
Only in shit countries with shit educational systems.
Everywhere else:
BS Med -> MA Med ->Doc Med, Psychiatrist
BA or BS Psy -> MA/MS Psy (Psychologist) then either Lab/Doc or another couple years of clinical training for Psychotherapist

>>9861868
okay, cool. Can you rec any books on said history? I'm hesitant to call him a quack without doing a diligent reading.

>>9861893
I dunno, wikipedia?
Any decent history will be suggestive towards one school, go find your own

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>>9861893

>>9861845
>Someone who studies psychoanlysis is more akin to a philosopher,
Most Analysts are conti philosophers who pretend to be psychologists or even scientists.

>he has an intuitive and dismally honest understanding of the human conditions, our strifes and our drives
This idea in combination with the "necessity" to continually "analyze" themselves is the reason everyone else think they are kinda culty.
>from which the theories of Freud and Lacan helped elucidate and organize.
Both of which are wholly irrelevant among actual psychoanalysts. People like Bion and Fonagy are more up to speed.
The second someone mentions Lacan, you can assume that 8/10 he's an undercover Zizek memer.
>Psychology students on the otherhand are autistic redditors too dumb and self obsessed to make it in a real science like physics or medicine so they thought they could be regarded as a doctor someday by studying what is in reality merely a thinly disguised
Most people who start psychology believe they are gonna be doing psychoanalysis all day.
The ones that don't instantly quit after that or get kicked out for failing statistics and neurology too many times, tend to be fully aware of just how soft a science psychology ist.
>and self promoting cult of secular liberalism.
One of the few things that Freud was right about, was just how fucking uncomfortable people are about their mind being objectified and fighting that idea jealously.

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>>9861923
>One of the few things that Freud was right about, was just how fucking uncomfortable people are about their mind being objectified and fighting that idea jealously.

Which is ironic since the exact same behavior is exhibited once someone's school of thought is objectified

>>9861917
ty anon. Glad someone still reads.

I'm currently studying for a PhD in Psychology, ama

>>9861991
What topic?

>>9861991
What is your take on CBT and DBT?

>>9861997
Environmental psychology, looking into the relationship between the environment and wellbeing

>>9862002
No idea because I'm doing a meme topic and have no real specialised knowledge on these topics. From what I remember from undergrad clinical psychology, CBT nearly always comes out with the best outcomes when compared to other forms of psychotherapy so it must be doing something right, although I'd always seen it as fairly useless for the type of depression that I had/have (I think most of my depressive beliefs are rational, so how can they be challenged on that basis?). I'm not too familiar with DBT, but I know it draws heavily on mindfulness, and that's taking off in the clinical/positive psychology world at the moment for good reason. Mindfulness-based CBT has even better outcomes than regular CBT, and I think everyone would benefit from incorporating mindfulness practice into their lives. It's already become a meme buzzword though, so lots of people who claim to be mindfulness experts are just hippy hacks

>>9862027
What do you think about concentration meditation as opposed to mindfulness meditation? Particularly use of tantra, mantra, yantra. Is a belief in the occult unhealthy for a schizophrenic? What do you think of the art of memory?

>>9862044
>What do you think about concentration meditation as opposed to mindfulness meditation?
Whenever I practice (which isn't as often as it should be if I'm being honest), I'll always start off with a concentration meditation and then move onto mindfulness once I'm in a more relaxed state. That's the technique that was used in all of the guided mindfulness meditations I used to follow, so I don't think they're necessarily mutually exclusive. Both aspects are important, and I don't think they're easy to disentangle.

>Particularly use of tantra, mantra, yantra
I've only really studied mindfulness from a western academic context, so lots of the eastern origin is lost on me. All I can say in answer to this is that mantra is a very useful device within concentration meditation to free the mind from clutter. More experienced meditators don't need it, but it's definitely a good idea for a beginner to use a mantra or some have other central focus point to return to when they notice their thoughts starting to drift.

>Is a belief in the occult unhealthy for a schizophrenic?
Probably very unhealthy, although I've never really studied schizophrenia or (to my knowledge) met one

>What do you think of the art of memory?
As in training yourself to have a super memory? I'm not convinced that it's anything more than a circus trick really, although having said that it's useful to use the method of loci to improve your own memory if it serves a goal-directed purpose.

>>9862027
>Environmental psychology, looking into the relationship between the environment and wellbeing
So like Esther Sternberg?
Also how are you defining "wellbeing". The usual positive psychology meme way?
>>9862044
Not him, but my take, as I study psych and have been reading up on my Buddhism (my BA was about MBCT)
>What do you think about concentration meditation as opposed to mindfulness meditation?
They just have different particular goals. While I don't like to advocate any religious practice, it would probably be helpful to get familiar with Buddhist practices to understand the differences.
But generally speaking, most agree that you should do both together. (I'm also quite skeptical of ripping mindfulness from everything else. But for the general public it seems to work, so who am I to judge.)
>Particularly use of tantra, mantra, yantra.
These are all just tools for different things. Not absolutely necessary.
You might want to pick up this book. Very good intro into meditation from a Zen perspective.
https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Training-Philosophy-Shambhala-Classics/dp/1590302834/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1502142108&sr=8-1&keywords=sekida+zen+training
>Is a belief in the occult unhealthy for a schizophrenic?
Depends. But it certainly isn't helpful. But you can meditate and even be a Buddhist without believing in occult or meta-physical stuff.
>What do you think of the art of memory?
The best thing I've seen on this topic is the pop-sci book by Maria Konnikova. But even that is quite meh and doesn't really go beyond what you might learn in cognitive psych 102.

>>9862075
Agreed. My introduction to meditation with theravada so I think of insight and concentration as complimentary. Later got into yoga.

I like tantra and mantra and yantra but feel a bit like a hippie indiaboo about it.

Western occultism seems to involve a similar purpose, in my view.

I have Catholic parents. My psychologist is Jewish. I dunno if religion can be disentangled from philosophy or philosophy disentangled from psychology so I always found that funny.

I have never talked to him about occultism. But it is a complimentary interest to my philosophical bent. Along with spirituality and religion.

I recently moved and need a new doctor. Was thinking of a new paradigm for my doctor. I'm schizophrenic. Also have substance dependency. CBT and DBT seem interesting.

I use method of loci as well. When I was a teen I thought Bruno was a martyr for a personal God.

>>9862089
>So like Esther Sternberg?
I've never actually come across her (does she publish academic papers on this topic?), but a very similar area by the looks of things. My PhD is specifically focused on the workplace because it's funded by a company, but later on in my career I'd like to look at a more general level and particularly at the importance of green space for mental wellbeing. I hate urbanisation, so I have a bit of a vested interest

>Also how are you defining "wellbeing". The usual positive psychology meme way?
What way is the meme way? My favoured definition for wellbeing comes from Deci and Ryan, who conceptualise it as comprising both hedonic and eudaimonic wellbeing. That's how I've always understood it really, but apparently it took the field by storm when they realised it's more than just a scale from happy to sad. Not sure if you'd count them as being in the positive psychology tradition - they're big in motivational psychology, which might be a sub-field of positive psychology. Everything gets a bit blurred in psychology really.

>>9862089
What do you think of phenomenology?

I have heard zazen incorporates both concentration and insight.

Why isn't a belief in the occult helpful? Isn't any sort of positive belief system generally good for recovery?

>>9861153
JP is a prof at the University of Toronto, read: not America.

>>9862109
>rom Deci and Ryan, who conceptualise it as comprising both hedonic and eudaimonic wellbeing.

So wellbeing is defined as wellbeing holy shit, psychologists are deep thinkers

>>9861991
How do you feel knowing in ten years your field is going to be regarded as akin to alchemy and your mother will never believe you're a real doctor?

>>9862097
>Later got into yoga
Most of my meditation these days is through yoga, as I struggle with back and neck pain which makes it difficult for me to focus as I'm in a permanent state of discomfort. After 20-30 minutes of yoga, I can enter shavasana and be properly at peace, and do a good 10 extra minutes of mindfulness in that pose. I don't do it as often as I should though, it's just too time-consuming (or so I say after having spent the last couple of hours on 4chan)

>feel a bit like a hippie indiaboo about it
Me too, although I think this has worked in my favour. I'm terribly cynical and will call something out as bullshit if the evidence suggests it's bullshit. However, for things like mindfulness and yoga, all the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of them having real and significant benefits. I think that my boss liked the fact that, if something gets through my approval, it's not just some stupid hippy fad.

>I dunno if religion can be disentangled from philosophy or philosophy disentangled from psychology
I often wonder this too. For pretty much all of human history, religious leaders have essentially played the role of psychologist in the community, and fairly effectively too. However, with the modern realisation that many theological tenets are incompatible with science, the growing atheism is causing a problem by reducing the role of the religious leader in society. In some ways, that explains why mindfulness has become so popular - it's a semi-religious technique which can be performed as part of real religious practice, in any faith, or it can be completely secular. Personally I think that this sort of non-specific spirituality will replace the void that atheism creates, but I may be wrong about that.

>occultism... schizophrenic
Best take your doctor's advice on this rather than me - I'm not a clinical psychologist and have only really studied it to undergraduate level (and even then I spent most of my time studying depression rather than other mental disorders)

>>9862109
>does she publish academic papers on this topic?
No fucking clew. On one of my random psych-deep dives I found her and was intrigued.
For Uni I live in a big city right now and the constant dust and noise and lack of green is driving me up the walls. My entire life I had nature right around the corner.
I'm even starting to think that there may be something to this hyper-sensitivity meme.

Any solid decorating advice on how to feel less like I'm in a concrete cage?

>What way is the meme way?
Like Seligman.
Went to a lecture by him once. Massive cunt with a messiah complex.

>>9862121
>What do you think of phenomenology?
Definitely a useful way to view, think and talk about things.
Arguably one of the core assumptions of most sciences and psychology in particular. Tho not everyone agrees.
Personally, I dig holistic phenomenology.
>I have heard zazen incorporates both concentration and insight.
Yeah. Tho most of it is more... fluent? It's a bit more reductionist than other Buddhist thought. Which is what I like about it. "Shut up and sit!"
>Why isn't a belief in the occult helpful?
Religious delusions are among the most common. If you have a tendency for hallucinations/psychosis, this kind of stuff can trigger or at least make it difficult for you and others to determine if you are sliding.
>Isn't any sort of positive belief system generally good for recovery?
This is still kinda a discussion among (clinical) psychologists. Which is why most just don't touch on it. I'm personally in the camp of being skeptical of it.
Most notably would be the big debate about AA. It would seem that AA only ever works when groups have a trained counselor/therapist present. Some studies even show negative effects upon rebound. Tho not everyone agrees.

>>9862158
*clue, duh

>>9862158
>Religious delusions are among the most common. If you have a tendency for hallucinations/psychosis, this kind of stuff can trigger or at least make it difficult for you and others to determine if you are sliding.

Yeah but what if magic and the otherworld is real dipshit

>>9862135
It's literally America.
And he is also active in the USA.

>>9862154
>Personally I think that this sort of non-specific spirituality will replace the void that atheism creates, but I may be wrong about that.

lel you got to love when a "scientist" literally talks like a crystal healer

>>9862142
Well I could go into more depth. Hedonic wellbeing is the more traditional conceptualisation of feelings of positive affect and feelings of negative affect. Eudaimonic wellbeing taps far more into the extent to which one is living a life that is in line with one's ideals, living in a purposeful and meaningful way. Deci and Ryan, and probably others too, have of course developed questionnaires where each type can be measured without defining wellbeing as wellbeing.

>>9862150
Psychology is unironically on the rise, I wouldn't be in this meme job otherwise. Pretty much every big company is focusing on employee wellbeing as one of their key HR outcomes, so more and more psychology hacks like me are getting hired. Personally, I think my PhD is fairly non-academic and a little bit shit, but it came free with the job, so I won't complain.

>>9862158
The concept of biophilia is huge in architecture and interior design at the moment. Lots of corporations are bringing in interior plants, green walls, water features, natural materials, etc to the office. You can do the same in your home to cheer it up a bit too - I have a few potted plants in my shit room, and it makes it a bit nicer. It's a bit of a fad, but it has science behind it too. Personally I still think it's a bit of a cop-out (oh no urbanisation is fine as long as we stick some plants in the office) and much prefer real wilderness areas, but it's a start at least.

I liked Seligman's work on learned helplessness, but I'm not aware that he's done much useful since then. I can see he's turned into a bit of a self-help guru, like lots of others in positive psychology have unfortunately (although I suppose the money's pretty good)

>>9862178
Never claimed to be a scientist, I'm in the first year of a meme applied PhD, that's all. Also said I might be wrong, because that's just my personal feelings on the topic. These views actually came more from literature than they did psychology - I was making my way through Houellebecq's books and, in my opinion, he perfectly captures the zeitgeist in the west today. Without religion guiding their lives, people struggle to create their own meaning and naturally this leads to widespread purposelessness and depression (to return to psychology jargon, a lack of eudaimonic wellbeing and an overemphasis on hedonic wellbeing). I'm not arguing that we should return to living under theocracy, but I think it's inevitable that some sort of spiritual resurgence (more in line with modern science) will have to happen, because man cannot live happily without it. Just my thoughts.

>>9862186
>Eudaimonic wellbeing taps far more into the extent to which one is living a life that is in line with one's ideals, living in a purposeful and meaningful way

That's utterly absurd, Scientologists and Skinheads are apparently full of wellbeing in that case. Why on Earth would self doubt and restraint not be considered healthy

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>>9858214

Why do infants think they can walk when there are some who dedicate 25 years to?

>>9862154
I'm certainly not mongering in diabolism or edgy revolt. I just find the philosophical premises and psychological states described in occult texts to be striking. I am fascinated by hellenic culture and the eudaemonic technology present in antiquity. Part of that is philosophical, mythological, mystical, magical, and so on.
>>9862158
I'm pretty well medicated these days. I don't think some spoopy larping is going to cause me to backslide but appreciate the concern.
>>9862164
Lol. Right?

>>9862209
Don't listen to these quacks brother. They want you to deny what you know in your heart is real because they're full of shit soul eaters. Spirit crushers. What you know is what you know in whatever strange unspoken place it may come from. Don't sacrifice your gift your knowledge in this short time you have on Earth for the sake of their banal suburban control. All just to be under their boot, their scalpels their concrete mallets

>>9862206
Yes, that's exactly true - why do you think otherwise? People devoted to a cause, even causes that the majority of people believe are ridiculous, are far happier than people who work in some job they don't really connect with and struggle to find their place in the world. Eudaimonic wellbeing is far more important than hedonic wellbeing (though it'd be nice to have both, obviously), so the fanatics who truly believe in something and devote their life to it, even if everyone else hates them for it, are happy. It might make us uncomfortable, but I'm sure that suicide bombers are in a state of pure bliss the moment before they detonate - it's that complete and total strength of conviction that convinces them to destroy themselves.

>>9862186
>Pretty much every big company is focusing on employee wellbeing as one of their key HR outcomes
That's weird. I thought "satisfaction" was the only really useful outcome people cared about. (Or at least the only thing that is beneficial to companies, as it reduces fluctuation.)
At least my professors think so.
>potted plants in my shit room, and it makes it a bit nicer. It's a bit of a fad, but it has science behind it too.
Is the science any good? Aka r > .2 and p < .005?
>I can see he's turned into a bit of a self-help guru
Half the talk was about how smart he was (because he was really good at Bridge) and how he decided to best invest his massive intelligence. Later on he compared himself to Galileo and Luther.
>>9862206
He literally gave you the source. Just go there and read up on it, holy shit.
>>9862209
You do you, man. I like to dabble in that stuff myself. I just know that if you take it too seriously (rather than just enjoying the aesthetics of the ideas), it can screw with your head. Schizo or no.

>>9862230
Because I don't subscribe to a retarded school of thought who is concerned with promelgating "happiness" irrespective of its contingent implications

>>9862237
>He literally gave you the source.

Yeah and the source will be full of the same bullshit. You realize this whole field is just composed of idiots like him who just fling shit at a wall and wait for it to stick with their peers. Its all just hazey ill considered conjecture waiting to be slightly prodded.
Durr eudaimonic? That sounds right let's go with that hurr

>>9862237
Stop telling him there's such a thing as schizophrenia you heartless fuckwit

>>9862246
>Yeah and the source will be full of the same bullshit.
>assuming
You realize that all you are proving here is how you don't like things you don't understand and don't want to understand, right?
You're like that kid who won't even try his greens, even tho everyone knows he's tried it and liked it before.

>>9862257
It's literally one of the most well researched and biologically validated disorders out there, you chucklehead.

>>9862258
Yeah and maybe greens taste like shit and you can get by without them.
You have no argument, you're just falling back referring your nebulous holybooks like any mystic man pressed on his dogma

>>9860610
how is that a comeback? its like if they'd said 'A chicken is not a dog' and you'd said 'you're not a dog' commit seppuku

>>9862269
>get's called out on arguing like a child
>rolls with it
kek

>>9862267
Well researched because the whole field is utterly clueless as to how to deal with "it", as if it is any single thing. Its literally just a waste basket for every apparent lost cause you can't understand should be tied up in. Can you even define what schizophrenia is without using several qualifiers on every signifier?

>>9862279
I like children, children don't have to defend institutionalized nonsense because they staked their entire adult career on it

>>9862281
"The entire field" I'm assuming this includes neurology now, since it's related?
>>9862290
Against what, exactly?
That psychology wouldn't hold up to radical positivism?
You might be autistic. In the colloquial sense.

>>9862237
The metrics for employee wellbeing do often come down to bullshit like satisfaction (we can hardly going to improve eudaimonic wellbeing for people working at a call centre, for example), but at least it makes some small difference. From a costs perspective, they want to reduce things like health insurance costs, absenteeism, and employee turnover. There's also lots of C-suite people who generally do care about the employees too, so implement wellbeing stuff for that reason.

I can't remember the minutiae for biophilia unfortunately, but I do remember the studies pretty consistently showed that indoor plants and/or natural views consistently lowered stress levels and led to improved mental functioning. There's some interesting evolutionary psychology explanations for it, although you always have to take that with a pinch of salt.

>>9862297
No I actually respect neuroscience, actual neuroscience not the laughable conjecture you fools try to launch from its actual grounded results. I wait with bated breathe as its large stone wheels turn slowly and it slowly bulldozes this patchwork wickerman that is orthodox psychology. The pure empirical monstrosity stripping your idolotry naked for all to see. The beauty of what will be in fact the new darkage of the mind that it will render when we are revealed to truly know so little past your clownish masquerades

>>9862226
I was seriously delusional off meds. Thought I was literally stepping through dimensions and time traveling and shit. No fun. Well kinda fun but mostly shitty. Especially once you get fucked by the long dick of the law.
>>9862237
>Schizo or no
Word up. Obsession is an interesting term in both psyhology and magjc.
>>9862238
You cannot cover all contingincies though you are welcome to try.

>>9862238
No one is suggesting that we should promote dangerous or immoral fanatics, just because they tend to be happier - obviously you have to look at the wider societal angle too. It just happens to be a matter of fact that those who are high in eudaimonic wellbeing tend to be far happier overall than those who are not. How you choose to interpret that fact, and to put it into action in a clinical context, are other matters entirely.

>>9862310
k

>>9862333
Which is why I wholly dismiss happiness as desirable in any context. There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with being miserable, infact there is much to suggest its the most reasonable reaction to life

>>9862339
Ironically, if you adopt misery as some sort of virtuous value system, and then live your life in accordance with these values, then you probably have a high level of eudaimonic wellbeing and are what I'd call 'happy' (though not from a hedonic viewpoint - but like I say, that's far less important for overall wellbeing).

>>9861991
So I had a really bad childhood. All the memes, neglect physical abuse volatile expectations etc. Is therapy going to help? Is the damage hardwired?

>>9862347
I should add - entire schools of thought have been built up around being miserable (or perhaps, more accurately, enduring hardship) as a value system. Stoicism and asceticism spring to mind. How is it that these people can endure hardship after hardship without giving in? Why is it that they don't just succumb to life's easier pleasures? Because they realise that purpose is far more important than pleasure.

>>9862355
I don't really believe in 'hardwired'. Pretty much every psychological attribute/outcome is an interaction between nature (i.e. genetic predisposition) and nurture (i.e. environmental factors and past experience). I don't study clinical psychology so my advice here won't be perfect, but I think it's certainly likely that your environmental upbring will have left you with a pretty maladaptive attachment style (I'm guessing avoidant), and a host of negative schemas that will have their own negative consequences. That can all be improved upon under therapy though, so I'd encourage you to seek that out. Lots of therapists aren't great in my opinion so if I were you I'd make sure you go for a registered clinical psychologist, but the most important thing is finding someone your comfortable with and willing to talk openly with.

>>9862357
Literally the implication of what you're talking about is its encouraging wellbeing to suggest a suicidal person to kill themselves.

>>9862376
How so? I don't think anything I've said implies that. Having said that, one of the reasons why I decided not to become a clinical psychologist (despite being passionate about mental health) is because if a client came to me with some sort of existential hopelessness and came up with a convincing argument for committing suicide, I wouldn't know how to encourage him not to, or whether I even should. It's much more straightforward when they have some delusional belief which is usually a massive exaggeration (e.g. "Everyone hates me, everyone is better off without me, etc"), but I have no idea how you'd treat a very intelligent depressive with no such delusions.

I don't think that applies to what we're talking about here. If stoicism and asceticism encourage the enduring of hardship, then surely the choice to commit suicide is contrary to the stoic or ascetic life.

>>9862389
Because if a persons "ideals" suggest suicide is expedient then that is what they should in pursuing eudaimonic wellbeing. For instance if my ideals suggest our lives are an absurd waste of time where pain outweighs pleasure and pleasure itself is predicated on inflicting suffering on other beings then it is natural that suicide is the conclusive act. He might even conclude taking out as much fellow cruel sufferers with him is logical and aim to shootup a school before he goes.
A psychologist who priotizes action on beliefs rather than self restraint and self doubt would encourage such a person to go through with his plans whole heartedly.

>>9862414
You're twisting the concept. Eudaemonia according to Aristotle is rooted in a concept of life and instrumentality.

>>9862436
I'm twisting it exactly because its there to be twisted. Philosophy has come along a bit since Aristotle
This example while extreme serves to show how its a totally inadequate replacement for the simple pleasure principal. A pure naive handwave of all consideration of ethics.

>>9862446
You're handwaving Aristotle and whoever this wellbeing guy is.

>>9862414
Well, if I was in a role as clinical psychologist and a client came to me with that sort of view, then I guess I'd try to rationalise with him. When I held similar (though not as extreme) views myself, Buddhist philosophy helped me. Yes, life is suffering, but what can you do about it? Nobody chose to be born into such a world, and yet here we are. Accepting the inevitable suffering that accompanies life is an important first step into finding a way of making this life be first tolerable and, eventually, enjoyable. What evidence shows time and time again from testimony from people who failed suicide is that they regretted the decision to commit suicide as soon as they'd jumped off the bridge, or stepped in front of the train, etc. So I'd discourage the ideas of suicidality, and encourage the client to treat each new day as an opportunity to learn how to better exist in a world where suffering is inevitable. Returning to the topic of this thread, I'm sure Jordan Peterson has a podcast on this exact subject (if anyone could say which one that'd be great), in which he has a very similar conclusion, but says it far more eloquently (and with far more biblical references) than I ever could.

But hey, I've acknowledged that this sort of client is exactly why I'd be very wary of becoming a clinical psychologist myself. I've had an existential crisis of sorts and have struggled with depression on and off for the past five years or so, so I'm still a long way off from finding my own purposeful path. My arguments are far from perfect - hopefully I'll be able to put it more clearly in the future, although I think that this sort of argument will need to come more from a better understanding of philosophy/theology than psychology per se. Alas I've never studied these academically, and have only picked up little bits and pieces from literature and a few other sources here and there. Hopefully I'll develop this as I get older.

I've got to turn in for the night because I've got work early tomorrow, but I've enjoyed this discussion. If the thread's still going tomorrow I'll try to come back.

>>9862453
>blah blah juss b urself :)

Nah humans are shitbags and need to be exterminated

>>9862357
>stoicism is about being miserable
>asceticism isn't about euphoria
Wat.
>and came up with a convincing argument for committing suicide, I wouldn't know how to encourage him not to, or whether I even should.
Barring untreatable painful maladies or stuff like early onset dementia, a quick one would be "Why the rush?"
>but I have no idea how you'd treat a very intelligent depressive with no such delusions.
I'm not sure I'd diagnose a person as "depressive" then.
What you a describing is a hypothetical philosopher with an existential argument for suicide.
Historically, those don't tend to commit suicide.
And they certainly don't seek help at a therapist. By definition, almost.
The only scenario in which that could happen, would be at a failed suicide attempt (which pretty much always is a cry for help, as it is extremely easy to "make sure").
>I don't think that applies to what we're talking about here.
I think it does.
>If stoicism and asceticism encourage the enduring of hardship, then surely the choice to commit suicide is contrary to the stoic or ascetic life.
Not necessarily. Nothing about stoicism categorically denies euthanasia and asceticism is arguably a form of suicide, by denial of worldliness.

Ironically, what most therapists would do, isn't so far off from stoicism. Apart from nuts like in positive psychology, most therapists wouldn't make you set up some kind of goal of blissful life à la 90s sit-com. It's a bit more pragmatic than that.

I think you might enjoy the video posted here:
>>9861010
At times it's a bit heavy on the analysis references, but otherwise a quite comprehensive look at what modern clinical psychology is and isn't.
And I agree with >>9862414
The field certainly isn't sound enough to confidently produce "good therapists", no matter who enters the field. (Tho it's getting progressively better.)
But the same could be argued about general practitioners in med.
>>9862436
No, I think you misunderstand the common psychological definition of wellbeing as being interchangable with "happiness". It isn't.
Also Eudaemonia has been used by more people than Aristotle, m8.

I honestly get the sense that you think clinical psychologists are some kind of hippies, who think all they have to do is tap into the hidden potential of every child to make them the normative ideal of common bliss.
Which I personally have only ever seen in movies and never IRL.

>>9862451
Aristotle believed in fucking young boys. I've read and considered his ethics and I find them wholly unconvincing though I respect their historical significant

I believe in Jesus Christ our Lord and savior

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>>9862468
>Historically, those don't tend to commit suicide.

*teleports behind you*

>>9862374
yeah, that's pretty much it. I would self-report as people-phobic but avoidant works. I have 2 clinical diagnoses which I don't buy and have stopped seeing anyone.

>I don't really believe in 'hardwired'.

this is my main concern. Ive had a hard time coming to terms with being like this forever in terms of quality of life.

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>>9858214
>mfw Naive Realists launch into a dismissal of JBP.

>>9858214
>I've spent a long time thinking about it therefore I'm right

>>9861288
but he unironically was

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17KB, 186x266px

>>9862477
To be fair, I've stopped counting how many authors I've read who can't stop whining about how shit life is (mainly because they can't into women) and just keep writing. And in the end they die in some weird unnatural way.

Pic related: This cunt has been obsessed with the idea of idealized suicide for decades.
He'll never do it.

>>9861006
>/lit/ reads those

>>9859641
The purest ideology known to man

>>9858278
well we have decades of biology and anthropology that basically amount to nothing but jewish tricks and Jewish butthurt, so forgive people for being skeptical towards sociology.

>>9858214
if a man with an iq of 14 can become a professional of note within a field in just 25 short years then someone who can hold a spoon would can expect to become an expert in 2 or 3 weeks.

>>9858214

no, i dont think i understand empirical psychology better than he does. but i will always outsmart peterson because unlike him, i know what im not qualified to talk about

>>9858278
>>9858283
>>9859679
>>9859685
>>9859740
>>9859730
>>9859995
>>9860103

>what is psychoanalysis

>>9861858

well for one thing western societies are better at hoarding wealth, and thats proportionally even just accounting for people living in western societies. but what that has to do with postmodernism is a mystery if you listen to peterson, because he never mentions any logical connection between the arguments. he's just slapping the name "postmodernism" on any idea he made up in his idealist fantasy argument world that he disagrees with

>>9858225
>>9858252
>>9858252
https://youtu.be/7z3mg6fjmzw

>>9858214
This man blocks your path and tells your girlfriend to stop being a postmodernist. Mind you, he's 6 feet tall and 175 pounds. What do?

>>9862014
link to where he talked about frozen and lion king?

>>9861858
Peterson's idea of postmodernism is just the negative aspects of neoliberalism. He is setting up a straw man to deflect blame from neoliberalism and neoconservatism, and refuses to acknowledge that French "neo-Marxism" was created by the CIA

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://thephilosophicalsalon.com/the-cia-reads-french-theory-on-the-intellectual-labor-of-dismantling-the-cultural-left/&ved=0ahUKEwiW8O_plcnVAhVHNrwKHUQdDLAQFggeMAA&usg=AFQjCNFN7KSQDurudH52mtZy5vzY7tl11g

>>9861276
>the sjw plague isn't real
>keep worshipping marx
>everything is going to plan