This is genuinely the most thrilling thing I've read all

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least favorite no doubt was the ship catalog but it's really not too long for it to put me off the rest of the book, definitely one of my favorite greek works

wanting to read aeschylus' prometheus bound next desu. want to read the oresteia too sometime.

> Patroclus' insults after beheading some Trojan dude
> "haha don't lose your head, my main man, haha this is crazy"
> body falls over
> "wow, I didn't know them there trojans were also skilled in acrobatics, wow they have such great poise lmao, do another trick then, dickhead"

Patroclus deserved what he got, desu.

>>9843214
I was somewhat siding with the Aecheans at first because they were failing and I felt awful about Achilles getting fucked over by Agamemnon, but by the end, when Achilles has killed Hector and intends to desecrate his body rather than return the body to his family I can't help but think Achilles was clearly an asshole all along.

>>9843214
How is the Fagles translation? Seems like it's the most popular one

>>9843290
Like a god-damn action movie. I fucking love it, Fagles is as good as Heaney about the lyrical flourishes (powerful but not distraction from the narrative)

>>9843277
But the part with Priam in the end is so beautiful.

>>9843251
Right? I thought he was so stupid to do this that I didn't feel too much with his death.

>>9843251
This. Patroclus was such a cunt in battle. The only reasons people fought over his body was because he was Prince Achilles royal cocksucker.

>>9843214
White people literature are always good.

>>9843398
> ancient Greeks
> white

What a story, Mark

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> Achilles has falling out with his best buddy Agamemnon because Agamemnon keeps being a dick in Golden Axe by stealing all the treasure and doing none of the fighting
> Achilles isn't playing anymore, folds his arms > Achilles' mom gets him some cheat codes
> unlimited armor
> invincibility unless if you do something stupid like jump off the side of the map
> infinite gold
> big head mode

Achilles is literally just "that fuckin kid"

A lot of mountain lion analogies to be honest.

>>9843214
>Hector becomes corrupted by his power and it leads to his downfall
Wait, what? How did you manage to misinterpret him that bad?

>Achilles, legendary runner, cherished fighter, acts like a massive baby
Confirmed for knowing nothing about Bronze Age Greece.

>soldiers bartering for their lives are insta-killed
Sometimes, earlier in the book they are often spared, but later they are killed. It's used to show Achilles' transformation.

>>9843554
what is this meme

>>9843584
> Wait, what? How did you manage to misinterpret him that bad?

He takes Patroclus' armor and lets it go to his head that with the armor and a God or two on his side, he could take on Achilles

>>9843554
There are, but at least they're all beautiful and serve an important purpose.

>>9843584
>Confirmed for knowing nothing about Bronze Age Greece.
I think I can relate Achilles decision, but could you explain better the relation with the Bronze Age?

>>9843622
This is true, anon. I do enjoy Homer's analogies.

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> tfw none of Homer's other poems survived outside of The Iliad and The Odyssey

Homer has given me a craving I didn't realise I wanted. Which books should I read next?

>>9843611
Wanting to defend his homeland and believing that he might now have a chance is not being "corrupted by power". At a stretch you could argue it's hubris, but even then you're on thin ice.

>>9843641
Well first off none of the commanders really need to go off and fight. They've promised and staked their honor on that they will, but Agamemnon in return has promised them loot.

During the Bronze Age there was a definitive tension between chiefs and their king, much like modern street gangs today. Displaying weakness can lead to being overthrown, which is why all chiefs react so strongly to having their honor slighted. It seems almost disproportional today, but back then it was extremely important to keep in power. Insulting someones honor, by talking down to them, stealing from them, etc. can be likened to modern times by a country not respecting another's air space. Sure, it's not an invasion. They're not going to war, and generally it doesn't have THAT much of an impact. But it's a statement. "We're stronger than you, you can't stop us.". That's what Agamemnon did.

Achilles has been raiding the cities and villages around Troy during the war, and have given much of the spoils of his work to his king. In return he will demand that he is treated with respect, and the fact that he is the best fighter among them is recognized.

When Agamemnon takes his prize, and not only that, adds the real insult to injury by saying he is the better man, how much greater he is than Achilles he has committed the worst offence one chief could unto another. That's why Achilles considers escalating the conflict (and make no mistake, their verbal exchange is very much a conflict, since Achilles is now actively questioning Agamemnon's ability as leader and king) to violence, and killing Agamemnon. Only the intervention of a literal Goddess stops him, that's how powerful the slight to his honor was.

That's also the reason that when Odysseus tries to convince Achilles to come back and fight, after listing all the gifts Agamemnon will give him, he leaves out the last crucial part, about Achilles having to bow down to Agamemnon, and admit how much greater of a man he is. That's why Achilles insists that those gifts aren't what's going to "pay him back in full". He's not interested in money. He's interested in getting his honor back.

Here's a talk comparing the social structure of the Iliad to modern gangs. He goes more in depth than what I can in this post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD0FEcK9smE

>>9843554
Whats this

>>9843746
Then I suppose I phrased what I meant poorly, my apologies, m8

>>9843748
Homer uses a lot of mountain lions for analogies in The Iliad.

>>9843746
>During the Bronze Age there was a definitive tension between chiefs and their king, much like modern street gangs today.
Greeks confirmed non-white.

>>9843763
But what is this mountain lion?

>>9843811
WE

>>9843830
a name used to describe a cougar, puma, panther, etc

>>9843811
> Bronze Age
> of Greeks
> Bronze
> Greeks

Greeks confirmed for Philippino.

Also the Greeks didn't have a word for the color blue, so Homer has to do all sorts of gymnastics to describe the color of the sea. Hence "the wine-dark sea."

>>9843746
HOL' UP

HOL' UP

SO YOU BE SAYIN' WE WUZ GREEK CHIEFS, KANGZ N SHIET?

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>>9843214
> the morning and evening sun is described as a woman in a dress

>>9843848
But what is this thing called mountain lion

>>9843899
A puma

>>9843554
Not enough milk bucket analogies desu

>>9843746

That link was excellent and I enjoyed it. Thank you. I've also only recently finished the Iliad and was wondering as to why everyone was obsessed with stealing armor. This explains it perfectly.

>>9843743
War and Peace

>the Iliad
>not Fitzgerald translation
You fucked up.

>>9843743
Aeneid is the obvious choice if you haven't read it already

Can I read this book if I have not read a lot of books or is it something I need background knowledge for?

should i read iliad or odyssey first?

>>9843622
>serve an important purpose.
which is?

>>9843214
I gave up after the list of ships. too boring. I can see how it would appeal to slower minds though.

>>9844257
You should be able to figure that out by yourself.

I like The Odyssey more. The battle description can at times be really cool, in my edition very gory and disturbing, but most of the time kind of monotonous. I much prefer the dialogue and adventuring of The Odyssey to this, but they're both great.

>>9843622
I don't think they are especially beautiful. A lot of them seem to serve mostly the same point too. But whatever...

>>9843855
hmm interesting, ty for telling us

>>9844249
Just read it, and maybe re-read it if you feel like you missed something, later when you have read more and feel like a stronger more confident reader. But it's fine, it's just dudes killing each other and gods pulling strings. Read the essays in the beginning of the Fitzgerald translation and you'll be A-OKAY.

>>9843290
I read half of it and Fagles and the latter half Fitzgerald. In my opinion I liked Fitzgerald slightly more.

>>9843554
I know this has been memed a bit in the past week but honestly after rereading Iliad 2-3 weeks ago, hearing this pointed out really cracked me up.

Homer's analogies/similes are really famous, but there really ARE a ton about mountain lions. They're good, but still.

>>9843743
There literally are extant, complete poems attributed to Homer, such as the Homeric hymns and Batrachomyomachia.

>>9844249
This is the type of book that is background knowledge for the rest of western literature, there really isn't much to talk about before it. Give it a shot, it might be seemingly difficult because of the surface-level cultural differences, but essentially it is a very raw and simple book.

>>9844219
Implying that there is an ideal translation at all shows your lack of knowledge.

>>9844922
he never said ideal, BRO

First for Teucer is underrated

wait, you all say that there are ''a lot of mountain lion analogies'' because he does a lot of similes about lions attacking a livestock and facing the dogs and hundsmen?

go fuck yourselves

>>9843855
An underrated fact

>>9844266
> Iliad
> boring
> says it's for slower minds

I would hit you if I could. Your hypocrisy is ridiculous.

>>9844783
Same, I genuinely giggled when I saw that other thread.

>>9845104
> you all say

There's only like five guys saying that. Suck my dick.

>>9845268
why do you care so much? it is clearly fake shitpost with the intention to enrage people like you

>>9843855
Yet Poseidon's hair is described as bright blue
(also the sea there is dark as fuck, man, almost purple)

>>9845104
People don't seem to take into account that, back then, lions were the most widespread land predator, and there were a shitton of them in Europe

>>9844266
>I gave up after the list of ships.
>I literally surrendered because of two paragraphs near the beginning of the book
Hope your mother's getting SOME kind of monetary compensation out of your disability

>>9843855
Psychologists say that because they didn't have a word for it it was literally indistinguishable to them and to homer the sea was the same color as wine and the sky was bronze.

>>9845432
That's been demythified as of late. They did have ways of naming them without having a singular, unique word like "blue". You can even confirm this reading Hesiod, Homer's contemporary. As mentioned, Poseidon's hair is described as being of different clear shades of blue. They just don't use a greek "blue". Most of the time they say that it is the colour of some stone like Azurite (kuanos - kυανός: "deep blue"). Homer's odd descriptions, like the wine sea and the bronze sky are poetic license.

I already bought oddysey but not yet Iliad. Can I still read oddysey first before Iliad?

>>9845469
No; it is physically impossible and illegal in most countries.

>>9845469
please don't, last time someone tried thirteen people died and twenty more had to be taken to a hosptal

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>>9845482
>>9845486
fug

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>>9845469
>wants to read odyssey before illiad
MOOOOOOOODS

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>tfw on road trip across america
>tfw finished iliad and Odyssey

Such good books guys, what's next for me do you recommend? Im pretty sure the chart says Histories or The world of Odysseus but I kind of want more epics.

>>9845524

The Aeneid by Virgil

>>9845524
Apollonius Rhodius - Argonautica
Pseudo-Apollodorus - Bibliotheca
Quintus de Smyrna - Posthomerica

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>>9845524
Time to go balls deep
Time for Ovid's metamorphoses

>>9845524
Don't listen to >>9845531

I read that after reading the Illiad and the Odyssey because, like you, I wanted more, and all I got was a gimmicky book that tried to be both the Illiad and the Odyssey and ended up being not even half as fun as either of them.

Still, might want to read it after >>9845532 because at least it offers closure on some points and there are a few classic stories, like the one with Dido (though it ends in a rather underwhelming note)

>>9845104
This is such a ridiculous response to a legitimate observation.

>>9845538
Please spell Iliad correctly in the future.

>>9845562
>gets all snotty over a common mistake that everyone makes once in a while because some retard thought it'd be a good idea to have the upper case I and the lower case l look identical so you accidentally overcompensate
Please give me the succ in the future.

>>9843546
kek

>>9843214
>>9843214
OP I just finished it a week ago. Amazing story. I ended up disliking Achilles in the end and loving Hector.

Also that part with Achille's shield first being forged was one of the most beautiful/touching scenes I had ever read, only wish I could hear it in the original.

>>9846286
>dislikes Achilles
>loves Hector

Try reading it again, maybe you'll get it one day.

>>9845524
Orlando Furioso. That shit will last you nearly 2000 pages of lurid verse and there's plenty of cucking involved

Does anyone know if the E.V. Rieu translation is good?

>>9846286
>>9846318
This desu. Achilles's development in the Iliad is surprisingly subtle if you're not paying attention to it but one of the most astonishing parts by far of the epic and probably one of the reasons it was written in the first place. Out of all the cities Achilles has raided and all the battles fought beforehand probably with other heroes too why choose to set the Iliad in such a small time frame? Plus his monologue to Odysseus and crew when they try to convince him to return and fight is pure gold. WH Auden has a good poem on the Shield of Achilles too

>>9846374
its a classic in its own right - that and then Fagles for verse version are the best.

btw Rieu's Odyssey was the first book published by Penguin Classics

>>9844922
Are the Homeric hymns actually attributed to Homer or they are simply written in the Homeric tradition?

>>9843546
underrated post

>>9845524
this is a spaghetti pepe

>>9843214
Hector was the real hero, Achilles is trash.

>>9845575
Stop talking like a retard

>>9846865
Chapman's verse version is the best mate, fagles is good too (especially for a first read or for someone not used to verse) but Chapman's is better.

>>9846374
It's the best of the prose translations. Make sure you have the revised version. Then make sure you read a verse translation at some point.

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>>9843365
Then ending with Priam, the preparation of the funeral for Hector and the final words from his family and wife nearly made me cry, anon. Especially the moment where Hector's wife talks about their child never reaching manhood and how an Aechean soldier is likely to kill their child out of anger when they pillage the city. You know all hope is lost by this point but they still try their best to pay their respects.

I genuinely didn't want The Iliad to end. I didn't ask for these feels.

news about North Korea ICBM and nuclear tests this year have been the most exciting and thrillingt hing I've read in years :3

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>>9848161
> Especially the moment where Hector's wife talks about their child never reaching manhood and how an Aechean soldier is likely to kill their child out of anger when they pillage the city. You know all hope is lost by this point but they still try their best to pay their respects.

I know it's inevitable but at that point I hoped that Troy wouldn't fall.

>>9848182
simply epic my main dude haha nice

>>9848188
I'm sincere here mate. Global politics gets me thrilled.

>>9848193
Oh fair enough then, yeah global politics is pretty interesting. I'm very interested in the conflict in the Middle East and Venezuela atm.

Do I need to have other literature under my belt to read this properly? Is it fine if I pick it up as a novice reader?

People be recommending me to read stuff like Kill a Mockingbird, Lolita, etc. but I really don't care much for stories set in "modern" times and prefer medieval/ancient stuff.

>>9848262
just read it.

all these charts and "guides" are made by people who don't read. they make charts.

go read.

>>9848262
I read the odyssey in the 8th grade. Homer isn't that difficult.

>>9848262
It's pretty easy going, maybe brush up a little on Greek mythology so you can recognise the importance of certain Gods' names and soldiers' names too, but other than that, you can read it from the get-go.

All I'd recommend is be patient with it. The Iliad is exciting, fast-paced and tragic - a lot of genuine fun - but many people get turned off from it very early on because Homer makes it his duty to reference each soldier who attends the battle, their homeland and the ship they rode in on. It's not a long segment of the book but it seems to be enough to put a lot of people off.

Once you get past that, it's a true joy.

>>9848280
If you didn't read an abridged version, and read a good translation... then congrats, anon ;))

Is Virgil's sequel as underwhelming as I've been told?

>>9843297
Picked up his translation and reading it right now. When the characters argue and insult each other is the best part of the book for me. It's so damn entertaining.

>>9849410
It's more underwhelming than that.