Dear Memerson retards, In your own words, what is postmodernism

>>9840260
>t. peterson retard

Fuck off, falseflagging retard. Stop shitting up this board

>>9840260
Are you so insecure about your pathetic life that you have to attack the pathetic lives of others who've formed a cult around a decent guy, however, putting his psychpussy on a pedestal?
I don't know where I was going with this.
I think he's framework of viewing things and the recommended behavior is a very pragmatic and functional one. It might (?) even be so, if only one individual does it, cuz otherwise it'd be a band-aid solution to all and thus kind of an ideology.
I think he's spending too much time on old ideas and not thinking up anything new, but that's more opinion, I guess.

>>9840307
Is English your first language?

>>9840307
>a decent guy

ayy

postmodernism = anti-christianity = bad

thats all you need to know.

>>9840260
I'd say it's a broad set of concepts and ideas in philosophy, literature, and art that are centered around notions like contextuality, relativity, and distrust of grand narratives. And I wouldn't necessarily say that it's bad.

>>9840356
This. Do not question Christianity, or you are damned to eternal hell fire.

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Postmodernism in philosophy is a 20th century French-Italian, loosely connected philosophical movement within the continental tradition.

It likes to advertise itself as movement interested in emancipation, while claiming that the meta-narrative of human emancipation is finished (see Lyotard). I guess they won't try too hard. Indeed they didn't.

Another commonly held belief you find is a taste for anti-realism (not unique, but inherited from earlier French and German philosophy, recall DeLanda: “For decades admitting that one was a realist was equivalent to acknowledging one was a child molester"). How do you help people in reality if said people are not real is another mystery. Again, anti-realism seems like the best approach to ontology for a Holocaust denier.

Constructivism, of the social kind, is quite popular. Postmoderns have this talent for seeing social behavior in so many things, even those that do not involve human communication at all. Sometimes your helpful emancipators will even tell you that diseases are created by doctors. So medical researchers aren't trying to promote health and combat disease, but the opposite. They'll have you know Mycobacterium tuberculosis is not a living species we discover, but an invention. Needless to say, the history of the Holocaust is just a social construct.

Relativism, or Vattimo's "weak thought" is another popular feature. Epistemology-wise, the truth of a statement is treated as a metaphorical pat on its back. Another mystery of the great emancipators stands before us: how do we prevent a second Holocaust if the truth of the first is not serious business anymore?

Postmodernism is a philosophy responsible for things like: ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality." from the Bush era, Trump's "alternative facts", and the NRx.

Have paper on the great emancipators Deleuze and Guattari being used by armed men to walk through walls in Palestine:
http://eipcp.net/transversal/0507/weizman/en/

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>>9840307
We can't allow him to influence our youth any longer. Socrates was matyr'd to stop men like him.

>>9840497
Lol, did Descartes actually day that?

>>9840497
socrates was a pseud tho

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>>9840339
Nay.
>>9840497
He's not a bad influence, I think. I'd hope more intellectuals, be it scientists, doctors, writers, lawyers or whatever, enter the scene with rationale and not memery or circlejerking in an echo chamber.

Worst is that people are building a cult of personality around him. He says there are those that point out when and where he's wrong, but with all the things he's trying to do simultaneously, all the people trying to contact him, too, he's botch things up eventually.

>>9840472
>It likes to advertise itself as movement interested in emancipation, while claiming that the meta-narrative of human emancipation is finished
Lyotard is just a guy who wrote a book with "postmodernism" in its title, he's not responsible for anyone else. Emancipation is present in many postmodern thinkers.
>Another commonly held belief you find is a taste for anti-realism
Deleuze is one of the most important "post-modernists" and he was unapologetically a realist.

Not to be rude, but have you read the people you talk about? You sound like a Wikipedia scholar.

>>9840530
Its no coincidence that people who love him meme about "saving your father". Most of his followers who create that personality cult around him are young, right-leaning young men who had authorityless or absent fathers and hate mainstream political opinion and culture. They want a daddy.

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From how he describes it, I think postmodernism is in favor of moral relativism and therefore is a way to undermine longstanding values. For instance, if I'm convinced by a postmodernist thinker that stealing is not wrong in certain situations, then my faith in religious / moral teachings will be challenged to the point that I will be led like a sheep into neo-Marxism.

>>9840581
same anon here, replace neo-Marxism with [any ideology]

>>9840555
doesn't he tacitly admit that? I think he knows perfectly well and is trying to help

>>9840549
>Lyotard is just a guy who wrote a book with "postmodernism" in its title
You didn't even read the title.
>Emancipation is present in many postmodern thinkers
Who are they emancipating and from what? Apart from petitions against age of consent laws, I mean.
>Deleuze is one of the most important "post-modernists" and he was unapologetically a realist.
Deleuze's realism is what got speculative realism underway, yes. But you need to understand that when I speak of a loosely connected movement having a "taste" for something, it's a Wittgensteinian family resemblance. I'm doing the post-modern thing myself, because it puts you in the best position to describe this movement of people yelling at each other. Remember your Foucault: "I am well aware that I have never written anything but fictions. I do not mean to say, however, that truth is therefore absent."

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>>9840260
>To produce this signifying structure obviously cannot consist of reproducing, by the effaced and respectful doubling of commentary, the conscious, voluntary, intentional relationship that the writer institutes in his exchanges with the history to which he belongs thanks to the element of language. This moment of doubling commentary should no doubt have its place in a critical reading. To recognize and respect all its classical exigencies is not easy and requires all the instruments of traditional criticism. Without this recognition and this respect, critical production would risk developing in any direction at all and authorize itself to say almost anything. But this indispensable guardrail has always only protected, it has never opened, a reading. Yet if reading must not be content with doubling the text, it cannot legitimately transgress the text toward something other than it, toward a referent (a reality that is metaphysical, historical, psychobiographical, etc. ) or toward a signified outside the text whose content could take place, could have taken place outside of language, that is to say, in the sense that we give here to that word, outside of writing in general. That is why the methodological considerations that we risk applying here to an example are closely dependent on general propositions that we have elaborated above; as regards the absence of the referent or the transcendental signified. There is nothing outside of the text. And that is neither because Jean-Jacques' life, or the existence of Mamma or Therese themselves, is not of prime interest to us, nor because we have access to their so-called "real" existence only in the text and we have neither any means of altering this, nor any right to neglect this limitation. All reasons of this type would already be sufficient, to be sure, but there are more radical reasons. What we have tried to show by following the guiding line of the "dangerous supplement," is that in what one calls the real life of these existences "of flesh and bone," beyond and behind what one believes can be circumscribed as Rousseau's text, there has never been anything but writing; there have never been anything but supplements, substitutive significations which could only come forth in a chain of differential references, the "real" supervening, and being added only while taking on meaning from a trace and from an invocation of the supplement, etc. And thus to infinity, for we have read, in the text, that the absolute present, Nature, that which words like "real mother" name, have always already escaped, have never existed; that what opens meaning and language is writing as the disappearance of natural presence.

>>9840555

You know, for all the talk about how Peterson is supposedly becoming some kind of cult figure, I've yet to see any evidence for it at all.

>>9840260
Post-modernism is the aggregation of views, trends, and forces that have resulted in the denial of human meaning, particularly aimed at cutting down the successful and happy.

Its a new morality of resentment that seeks to justify personal insufficiency by cutting down the world with "critique". It's criticism that's abandoned the goal of improving.

Its literature professors who seek to dominate a text, rather than read it.

>>9840356
>>9840443
>lowly protestants detected
i guess it's okay if you guys join the cult.

>>9840630
I don't understand any of this, how do i understand?

>>9840821
Stop watching youtube videos and read

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>>9840733

There you go.

>>9840821
Postmodernism is often accused of being obscurantist, which is something anglos shit on continental philosophy at large for. This isnt the worst example, but I dont find myself all that frustrated reading popular scapegoats like Deleuze, Foucault or Derrida either. If youve minimally read Kant and Hegel it shouldnt be that inscrutable.

>>9841022
the publicity he got from the pronouns scandal attracted exactly the kind of confused angry youth that are looking for a big daddy to give them an ideology

>>9840260
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44f3mxcsI50&t=8125s

Confront your resentment.

>>9840506
no, that was some guy on the internet

>>9840506
Doesn't matter when it's the truth

>>9841134
confront the realisation that Peterson is a very confused, poor thinker who does not deserve any attention

>>9840260
I like Peterson, but he doesnt have a very nuanced understanding of postmodernism or the factors leading up to it. Sure much of postmodern philosophy is nihilistic and destructive, but its literature is also honest and a logical product of the increasingly withered heart of the modern man and its self-consciousness and terribly fractured psyche. Sometimes Peterson just wants to bitch that suffering people tell the truth about their experiences.

>all these failed attempts to quantify something that by it's very nature defies quantification
SAD!

>>9841359
maybe if leftists tell people to close their eyes and ears long enough JP will be forgotten

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>>9841386
>Sometimes Peterson just wants to bitch that suffering people tell the truth about their experiences.
what did you mean by this?

Peterson follower here.

Postmodernism isn't exactly incorrect but its bad because its unnecessary. Its pretty much like going "Hey art has no limits so lets not treat it as anything that could be thought of objectively". But in reality even if there is no objectivity there are certain works of art which society has picked out as being better than another.

As Moe said "wierd for wierd sake" and he was right but you shouldn't be wierd for the sake of being wierd, do it if you genuinely thing you are making something people will enjoy, not shock and offend them.

>>9841548
Postmodernism is nothing like that

READ

>>9841570
Well go ahead and clear up the definition for me then.

>>9841548
>>9841548
>Its pretty much like going "Hey art has no limits so lets not treat it as anything that could be thought of objectively"
>But in reality even if there is no objectivity there are certain works of art which society has picked out as being better than another.
Anon, that's not even just throwing out postmodernism, it throws out modernism. Victorians would find you anal.

>>9841580
the cultural logic of late capitalism

>>9840472
Pain teaches man (Adam). Jews didn't learn in two thousand years. What can we learn from this?

>>9841359
If attention was deserved, women would not get it. Only the best bait would.

Does anyone here unironically believe in anything Peterson says though?

I assumed most people were just pretending to be /pol/tards to cause trouble.

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>>9840260
bc the bloody cultural marxists and the dead russians sort yourself out read this fat cold war propaganda book ps the dragon of chaos

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>dismissing a thinker based on side-show obiter dictum instead of their actual ideas

Peterson is a valuable thinker in carrying on the spirit of Jung and the phenomenologists. His ideas about religion are profound. The reason people flock to him is because he actually understands religion, and in a way that few have. He's providing a psychological/phenomenological approach to religion that overcomes our previous two options of belief in a literal sky daddy and arrogant Enlightenment dismissal as "irrational".

>>9841022
All you have there is a Patreon profile, anon. I take it Chapo Trap House is an even bigger right-wing daddy cult, then?

>>9842413
>Chapo Trap House
Chapo fans are a left wing cult, yes

>>9842420
Out of curiosity, is there any conceivable situation in which people can support a content creator they enjoy without that being a cult?

>>9840612

Yeez, check your pseudosophy, shitcunt.

>>9842424
>support a content creator they enjoy without that being a cult
unlikely because successful internet / youtube / podcast personalities rely so much on their charisma and on self-selection of their userbase.
Since they directly profit from their userbase, they have an incentive to just restate (with a lot of certainty) what their listeners already believe

When Peterson talks about postmodernism he isn't talking about academics and post-structuralists; He's talking about the general life philosophy of our era. The nihilistic young American.

Saying postmodern philosophy is all one way is like saying ancient philosophy is all one way.

>>9842559
So, to clarify, giving a donation to a streamer you enjoy is essentially a cultish act of re-affirmation of your own beliefs?

>>9842638
>streamer
a streamer... like video games? do they even have opinions?

and simple donations can be given for lots of reasons, i was thinking of more broad support

I mean the only reason you're throwing the word "cult" around is because you're doing the whole "thing I not like" thing.
To be clear I'm totally unconvinced that donating money is categorically an evidence of a cult. And no I'm not going to argue whether or not Peterson really is a cult leader. Your accusation is absurd. Typical shill tactics - throw out a flurry of accusations and sit back and watch people waste energy defending them, and steer the conversation away from actual discourse. Is it even possible to have a non-hyperbolic discussion on this shithole anymore?

Is there any postmodernist philosopher that not a communist or left-leaning in personal ideological view?

Petersons criticisms of postmoderism making zero fucking sense to me is a large part of what got me reading a lot more so I can actually understand what the fuck postmodernists are.

>>9840472
Your notion of anti realism sounds suspiciously literal and not at all in line with the aesthetic/philosophical connotation.

>>9843065
Post-Modernism is logical continuation of Modernism but with Marxism on steroids.
>even though the division between human and nonhuman might have been necessary in order to ‘increase mobilization and lengthen some networks’, it has now become ‘superfluous, immoral and – to put it bluntly – anti-Constitutional’
>we should give rights to nonhumans, to quasi-objects, to hybrids.

In decades *lgbtq+* problems would sounds like "could to vote who do not own land/property or wasn't born in our polis". It would be total decomposition of western (christian) societies.
Blue collar hadn't became a 100% base for the Left. Left trying found any source of power such as poor and strangulated people.

Modernism said Equality is good.
Post-Modernism says Equality is good but this is not enough.

>>9843045
>I mean the only reason you're throwing the word "cult" around is because you're doing the whole "thing I not like" thing.

You just described Peterson.

>>9840472
>Postmodernism in philosophy is a 20th century French-Italian, loosely connected philosophical movement within the continental tradition.

Already wrong. Postmodernism is by and large a very American thing.

>>9840581
How can neo-Marxism be reconciled with moral relativism? Marxism has morals.

>>9843102
What are you on about? Modernism is marked by its hierarchical ideas about art, class, and culture (pound, eliot, kenneth clark ).

>>9841780
>>dismissing a thinker based on side-show obiter dictum instead of their actual ideas

Same story for those against postmodernists. Derrida's deconstruction does not resemble lit crit that goes by the name of deconstruction

>>9841359
why do you say that?

>>9843065
Even though he explicitly mentions Foucault and Derrida by name you should be able to notice after some reading that his criticisms aren't very accurate against either of those two. Reading is good though and that is the correct response.

>>9843102
Marxism? It's a continuation of classical liberalism, to which Marxism belongs.

>>9843170
... and that means Marxism is ok (or even better bc progress means getting better, like iPhones and shit) as well as classical liberalism.
Nazim and Fascism aren't belong to liberalism too?

>>9840260
Jordan "If you pay me thousand dollars you will be my son" Peterson

>>9843112
NO U

TFW NO DR. JORDAN B PETERSON DADFU TO WASH AWAY YOUR POST MODERN SINS

>>9843112

IDK, somehow I'm more impressed with Dr. Peterson's critique than I am with yours

>>9840472

>Constructivism, of the social kind,

lmao

>>9842424

no, and this is precisely the problem, that with capitalism you can no longer believe in ideas, but only consume them in the fleshy form demagogues give to them on your little screen

>>9841755
I like his Disney movie analyses and generally everything he says about Freud, Jung and Nietzsche. I don't care if they aren't his own words, since I am still learning them through him.

>>9843642
>I like his Disney movie analyses
Like how he calls Frozen feminist propaganda and how he thinks anything that he thinks has a political message is just propaganda and not art?

>I am still learning them through him
He blatantly misreads Freud and Jung. I haven't watched any videos where he mentions Nietzsche, but I assure you it's probably not good either. You're not learning, you just think you are. Get off your YouTube education and start reading the philosophers you're interested in yourself. You don't need a fucking daddy figure to spice them up with "clean your room" style self-help advice.

>>9843118
Wow comprehension skills lacking

>>9840821
He's basically saying that our entire lives are defined by doctrines made by the cultural customs and language from the first men of their time and that there has never been a raw interpretation of reality, just subjective ethics.

>>9840745
While this is spot on, I don't believe it is inherently malicious. I do think that while inadequacy was the driving force for post modernism, it was ultimately inevitable for the survival of certain ideologies in this new technological society. The meaning of "Improvement" has been heavily altered to cater to the whims of the empowered capitalists, which is why I think that this post push is born out of the willing but the unable who fall into the cracks made out of the flaws in certain ideologies. It is very nitpicky but it does expose the obsolete elements that simply will not preserve when you can easily find data in this age to dispute traditional claims.
Post modernism is just a huge fact checking citation.

>>9843662
Art is propaganda is art is propaganda

>you don't need a daddy figure
The daddy figure is important, it gives a model for managing one's self, and a lot of young men in our time are lacking that model.
>he blatantly misreads
That's your opinion and it's reasonable but it isn't bad to hear Petersons perspective, and I would argue that the fact that he's developed such a meme following so quickly Is evidence he's filling a niche that was lacking in options

>>9840745
Have any postmodernists stated this as their goal?

If not, from which passages of their work/which works is it made clear that this is their motivation and goal?

Some people dont mind being nomads and gypsies
Others however need to stake their claim upon a solid foundation
They also need approval from others.

>>9843662
Compared to classic Disney movies, Frozen does suck. And can you point out where he calls it out for being propaganda? I have seen him call it rubbish, in reference to its values, which are indeed feminist but which he looks down on because he thinks they are immature.

I've read Nietzsche. What he says on Nietzsche is generally pretty right, though he doesn't say much so it's hard to be wrong I guess. What is wrong about his assessment of Freud's failed hero story vs. Jung's successful hero story and the general differences between their practices?

>>9843767

>That's your opinion

ugh

>>9843885
>And can you point out where he calls it out for being propaganda?
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/615e3z/i_am_dr_jordan_b_peterson_u_of_t_professor/dfbz5p4/

>>9843904
>Dr. Peterson I simply must respond to this and I hope you will, too. Dostoevsky's The Devils (a novel you're fond of) was written with a very clear political message in mind. Dostoevsky himself wrote numerous times that he was writing a tendentious piece of work with The Devils. Does this make The Devils propaganda, and not art?
>no response
Blown the fuck out by a redditor. How will Daddy ever recover?

>>9843904
Well he has a point there. The difference with Frozen and then a movie like Beauty and the Beast is that the former comes out in an age where there is a widespread need as well as growing social push towards the values presented in it, and the latter comes out in an age where there is no such need or push in those values, they are already accepted and grown. So the former does appear as propaganda in comparison.

The values in Frozen are also pretty crap. Let's be real here, I'm sure the bigger reason why he even wrote that comment is because he doesn't like the values portrayed in it. That's appropriate given his Jungian background.

>>9840260
I was microdosing LSD and it dawned on me that Peterson is an avatar for the divine masculinity that has been subdued by the feminine aspect of humanity for far too long. He is the herald of a paradigm shift in our cultural milieu.

>>9843995
I'm not sure it was subdued by the feminine. I think weak fathers have played a bigger role over the past ~50 years.

>>9843995
Holy shit dude...

I recently had two Bulletproof Coffees and a cold shower while listening to a Peterson podcast. I had like the same fucking idea about him. I swear he's going to be looked back on as the Plato of our time. Fuck post-modernism, everything in future with be post-petersonian.

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Remember when Wikipedia used to have an article on "Cultural Marxism", but then in 2014 the Wikipedia mods buried it?

>>9843100
Anti-realism is what it claims to be: opposition to philosophical realism, in this case we're dealing with several people who read Heidegger and somehow still demand proof of an "external" world, and that would deny that there is only one.

>>9843592
There are many constructivisms, but one is sociological theory of knowledge that discriminates against the natural world in construction of scientific knowledge. Hence the bullying of the poor oppressed Mycobacterium and the bones of Holocaust victims, sold off as inventions instead of things-in-themselves.

Dear subhumans,
Your hatred of Peterson is revolting. You want the collapse of society, which is why you hate him and why you're subhuman. You are evil, ignorant, and if you want to really improve your situation, you should consider cleaning your room instead of making defaming shitposts across the web.

Peterson is the strong, healthy male father figure that /lit/ never had, which is why this board is so resentful towards him.

He is essential to the social fabric right now because of the increasing secularization, nihilism, and consumerism that has warped our collective consciousness.

>>9840260
Let him explain it himself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf2nqmQIfxc

>>9843847
What their motivation and goals are are not relevant. Its an ideology that is decades old. How it manifests itself today is how it manifests itself today.

>>9844111
Yes now its on the conspiracy thepru page

>>9843061
a lot of them are deeply into tradition and primal shit, like heidegger and jung, because it gives meaning which is not prepackged by a external system and mechanical and prone to break down.

for instance, jung believes in man having a primal almost animist view of the world as a necessity. you can use that to justify a lot of shit from nordic odin worshipping ayran masterrace nazis to furfags, bisexuals, and otherkin. it doesn't necessarily have a political valence.

in heidegger's case, he was more fond of authentic historical tradition than the nazi's who invented all of their "traditions" and more likely to make stone age technology to find happiness while the nazis were more likely to believe that science and better refined technology was going to clear the planet.

because it plays against modernism, and regards its story of eternal progress out of the dark ages with suspicion, there are a lot of ways that philosophers reacting to that explain how maybe the dark ages weren't so bad. maybe drinking the blood of your enemies slain with the axe you smelted yourself feels more satisfactory to our lizard brains[1] feels better than pressing a button to make the unseen enemy explode on a 5'x9' screen.

>[1]inb3 "lizard brains" don't real in science
that's the point, science may not be the shit, and in terms of mystical experiences of yourself and others, which are fucking awesome, lizard brains has all kinds of wonderful thoughts and meanings attached to it no matter where you're from.

>>9845948
How 'it' manifests today may not even be a manifestation of 'it'. Your goal is to point out the links between the ideology you don't like today and the philosophical investigations of last century. I assume you value objectivity.

>>9843995
Is that why he keeps crying?

>>9844007
Yeah when a lot of them were killed off in the 30s and 40s when white people disagreed about fundamental aspects of reality and nature.

>>9843239
I'm not sure what this has to do with the point at hand, of postmodernism being Marxism on steroids.

>>9846024
Lol its a broad cultural structure. The only way to discern what it is is by identifying its manifestations. Its a concept, it doesnt exactly leave a residue.
Now im in favor of doing away with this idea all together. I dont think negative existence is very useful for cultural observation. That being said, its fucking useless to evade the signposts if you choose to play the game.

>>9840260
A thought process that seeks to selectively disregard categories by pointing out that they are imperfect, though seldom (if ever) replacing them with something useful. In the short term it's a power-trip and often feels righteous, in the long term it's going to screw us.

>>9846093
That doesn't really address the issue. The act of identifying is the problem and being accurate and honest in that procedure, not that there are symptoms and diseases.

>>9846194
This is quite accurate but there's no real attempt to replace anything for a reason. If we assume modernism is a kind of 'essentialising' process based on Kantian categories then we can say that our essentialising may not be entirely accurate because to essentialise you need to be certain of every variable and every category. This resultant conclusion of the 'failed' essentialising process of modernism is what we could call post-modernism, which still requires the idea of categories to be valid in order to function as a meaningful philosophy. 'We' were smart to arrive at the idea of categories in the first place but it doesn't mean we're going to apply that idea in the best way possible each time we do so.

>Implying I listen to him talking about postmodernism and not to learn about archetypes in mythology and how they represent real life

>>9846282
the problem there is the implication that those are separate and opposing things.

>>9846288
Postmodernism dismisses those mythologies as obscurantist fiction hiding and justifying hierarchies of oppression. It is a reductionist view of mythology that does not seek to extract a code of conduct for being a moral being in the world, which is what Peterson does.

>>9846257
Post-modernists abuse categories by localizing discussion to a particular category, which then becomes the scapegoat for categorization as a whole (White, Capitalist, Christian, Kantian, etc.), making them fetishes to abuse in a religious/ecstatic ritual intended to unleash the potential pinned down by the categories, regardless of whether or not it's sustainable (hint: it's not).

Categorization is not the result of any single element. It is a human fundamental - it is how we interact with the world without loosing our minds. If we didn't categorize, we would be constantly interpreting every detail as if it were a new and relevant phenomena. We would be autistically paralyzed by every minor shift in our environment.

This is why Peterson is SO essential. Read his essay "Three Forms of Meaning and the Management of Complexity". You can find it on his website as a linked PDF on the course page for his "Personality and its Transformations" class. It will explain to you the process of human meaning making and once you read it you will intuit the flaws in the post-modern attitude.

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>>9840356
Christian culture*

>>9843995
no you didnt, youve got that from a letter he was sent that he read out in one of his biblical series lectures. Youve just repeated what a woman said she experienced on peyote but changed peyote to lsd to make it sound more believable, nice try and claiming that experience for your own though

>>9840555
That's not news, but having a positive role model, even later in life that would be ideal, doesn't necessarily translate into being part of a cult.

im not a petersonfag and have hated postmodernism from way before peterson

its bad because it remvoes any meaning from the world, turns it into a cause for itself, gets it stuck into pointless materialism and hedonism
postmodern books have no real message and meaning - theyre the reason why literature today is so debased - cheap belletristic for teenage girls

>>9842653
>>a streamer... like video games? do they even have opinions?
They have a lot of influence in which kinds of games people play. I don't even watch streams and yet I play some games that got popular and widespread thanks to streamers.

>>9846301
uh, no, postmodernism says those narratives might be as or more valid than science and they're both just as valuable as aliens did it.

>>9842653
streamers have huge popularity and spout opinions as people spend hours watching them play video games. they've very much changed the business landscape of the billion dollar video games industry and influence adults and children both.

(i'm not saying i approve of this at all.)

>>9843891
It's true. You didn't give anything specifically objectionable and your (stupid) opinion boils down to thinking people shouldn't even hear out a thinker you disagree with

>>9843995

I feel the same, I have read many books on political philosophy, I have never read anything as profound as his work

>>9846368
>its bad because it remvoes any meaning from the world, turns it into a cause for itself, gets it stuck into pointless materialism and hedonism
>missing the point of the third policeman this hard
postmodern art tends to criticize materialism and hedonism pretty harshly. it's mostly satire of those things as empty and meaningless and often deceptive.

>>9846319
I'm not sure there's any continuation between those who localise discussion, those who use it as a scapegoat, and those who abuse it in ecstatic ritual. Maybe it seems like it to you because you've done just that in your attack on postmodernists, or maybe you view these apparent machinations of postmodernism as providing a sort of precedent for your own take-down of the postmodernists, or people in general do what you've described and it is not inherent to postmodernists alone (unless you describe, or can be described as, a postmodernist).

If Derrida 'problematises' the category of philosophy by looking at philosophy through how it makes itself distinct, he reveals that it is dependent on an overarching structure that precedes any such distinction. He does not offer a solution or means of abuse, nor does he use it as a scapegoat -- in fact, as I said, he still requires categorisation to be 'true', and he still requires (and suggests the preservation of) Western philosophy has a whole. We can't really move beyond it.

Categorisation has a specialised meaning in philosophy, even if it refers to a 'human fundamental'. The 'postmodernists', or those who inherit the 'post-modern attitude' (the 'SJWs', or whatever) aren't necessarily versed in this tradition as the continental philosophers were. And if what I said earlier is true, those left-leaning postmodernists aren't the only people who have a post-modern attitude as you have demonstrated. It doesn't seem well-founded to attack postmodern philosophy, which deals rather exclusively with the tradition of philosophy itself, by the vague application (the 'acting out' of an internal characterisation of post-modern values and ideas as they have been filtered through all sorts of ephemeral media that defines the material postmodern condition, rather than the philosophies themselves) of the continental tradition by, say, undergrads or NEETs.

It's a situation that requires a more disciplined and careful approach otherwise we end up with a new modernism.

I trust his opinions on it, because even though I dont understand post-modernism, I do understand other things he talks about

Why we suffer, how to use suffering to learn from the past, why we seek to better ourselves. All those things he talks about ring true with me, so I tend to trust what he says about the things I know little of as well

>>9846550
it seems to criticize everything except itself.

>>9846936
see stuckism

>>9846550
>it's mostly satire
That seems to be the problem with it. It's all satire and no substance. It's constantly pushing the blame away from itself. Anything labeled "postmodern art" looks like the byproduct of a neurotic, ADHD-addled loser with no integrity or character, who encountered the master morality and philosophy of the higher cultures in the world and became a retarded mess for it, desperately attempting to reconcile everything chaotic at once within himself (which is everything) while simultaneously failing to create a damn unique thing from it. Postmodernism: the philosophy of the third eye blinded neurotics / hypermasculine autists.

>>9846967
>hypermasculine autists.

what did you mean by this?

>>9846967
>>9846936
It often does criticize itself. The Third Policeman for instance has at least three warring critics commenting on the author's amateur interpretation of another.
Thing can be humorous and critical and still worthwhile. A lot of really bad practices have only fallen out of favour because they were held up to the light: most of what you're taking as an endorsement of material society is postmodernism saying the person who pays money for postmodernism as a status symbol deserves to be taken for every cent they have, not for profit, but because bankrupting someone often solves their appreciation of materialist social status.

>>9846967
What makes you sure that your inability to discern any substance means it has no substance? How well-read are you in philosophy and the arts? Or are you another passive consumer?

>>9847008

He's likely referencing the idea in psychology that the traits of autism are equivalent to an extreme form of masculine brain function.

>>9845114
>Anti-realism is what it claims to be: opposition to philosophical realism, in this case we're dealing with several people who read Heidegger and somehow still demand proof of an "external" world, and that would deny that there is only one.

lol. nice try.

>>9847008
I have met a few people who have claimed to be very into certain postmodernist thinkers. I met them through the fashion industry, they were male fashion models. They were all dancers as well and participated in several other performance arts. Very offbeat but enthusiastic and high minded people. They all loved avant garde work, what you see when searching postmodern art. To me, they are what I'd call hypermasculine autists - they are an aggressive, borderline asexual people, difficult to have a conversation with, whose minds are extremely scattered and seeking so many different things at once and never sitting still to reflect on anything. That's the picture of postmodernists I have from my experience.

>>9847108
You can call scatterbrained a characteristic of its own, but it's a weak one. My reading of postmodernist philosophy is limited but I am well read in philosophy outside of that area.

>sincerely claiming anything about anything anywhere at anytime

HAHAHA WHAT A FUCKING MEME RETARD CULT FAGGOT AHHAHAHAHAHAAAAA IDIOT

>goes back to huddling in the cave with all the other shadows

>>9847911
Show me the realism in Foucault and Baudrillard, then

>>9847956
Meanwhile enjoy Vattimo ranting against realism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vct6MnlnObI

>>9846349
who its almost like someone was trolling on the internet!

Postmodernism is whatever the dumbass german relativists didn't anticipate when they spun their theories. Of course everything is relative, but to take any and all objective value and perspective from things in the realm of practical considerations is where we drift into postmodernism. Everything is subjectove nothing can be judged, but instead of making this the basis to think in a freely manner about a diverse range of ideas and cultural norms to practically apply those that meet our means and ends it is perpetuated as the philosophical cultural and social end itself. All pragmatism is shown to the door and instead we invite kevrr ending dialectic to dictate not our thoughts but actual political processes. Basically its the perfect example of how platos oligarchy of the wise philosopher kings would ultimately fail.

It has lead to the destruction of western culture in Europe.

>>9840307
Because his followers spam his shit everywhere. This isn't an exaggeration.

>>9840356
Stop trying to turn me into a postmodernist anon.

>>9846372
>>9846384
hey hey shut up lol

>>9840260
>modernism
wow
>post-modernism
wew

It's bad because it tears the foundation of society out from under it and doesn't replace it with anything.

>>9847912
>I have met a few people who have claimed to be very into certain postmodernist thinkers. I met them through the fashion industry, they were male fashion models. They were all dancers as well and participated in several other performance arts. Very offbeat but enthusiastic and high minded people. They all loved avant garde work, what you see when searching postmodern art.

I observe the same thing but I made the exact opposite conclusion. These people are feminine. Postmodernists(like other leftists) are mostly homosexuals, females and feminine males. They are just really high in openness also they are anything but asexual.

>>9846967
>That seems to be the problem with it. It's all satire and no substance. It's constantly pushing the blame away from itself. Anything labeled "postmodern art" looks like the byproduct of a neurotic, ADHD-addled loser with no integrity or character who encountered the master morality and philosophy of the higher cultures in the world and became a retarded mess for it, desperately attempting to reconcile everything chaotic at once within himself (which is everything) while simultaneously failing to create a damn unique thing from it.
so a Jew, basically?

>>9850230
All of the people I was referring to were bi, actually, and very adamant about expressing it openly (of course, they are male dancers and fashionistas). But to me there is something masculine about their flamboyance, as if it's rooted in a really twisted, deep-seated repressive state, but it is ultimately masculine in nature. They are trying to consume everything, not absorb but annihilate.

>>9840516
not really, he was just very autistic

>>9850230

>really high in openness

>>9841548
>ts pretty much like going "Hey art has no limits so lets not treat it as anything that could be thought of objectively". But in reality even if there is no objectivity there are certain works of art which society has picked out as being better than another.
I'm pretty sure post-modernists have their own standards of quality. I mean really, isn't post-modernism about finding your own meaning and value?

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Anyone else worried about Dr. Jordan B. Peterson?
How long can he keep this up?
Anyone who watched his latest Bible video must have noticed that he literally cried for half the video and sounded so frail. He's probably doing like 30 Patreon video sessions a day. He has openly stated that he suffers from major depression and that it runs in his family.
There is an insatiable demand for Peterson content, but how can he keep up? The more he strives to meet this demand, the less time he actually has to reload new content.
What does he even have?
>Big 5 Personality Quiz
>Meme psychometrics
>Chimp stories
>Disney movies
>One book about the soviet union

Are those all his memes? He's running out of content....
And Bill C-16 is now law and he already said he won't abide by it, and with all the fame he's getting you can be sure that some provacateurs will make it their mission to demand that Peterson personally call them xir or whatever and then file charges/get him fired when he won't do it. Is he on the brink?

>>9850522
got a problem with that?

>>9850583

Well, considering he just cancelled all his classes this year I'd say he doesn't give a shit about the school anymore and wouldn't mind being fired. Shame really, kinda wanted to take a course with him.

Will he break? Who knows, guess we'll see. I feel like he's been trying to get his ideas to more people for a long time, and he's finally kinda done it? Even if he breaks, I guess he'll still be happy

>>9847956
In baud it's the same as in deleuze, via tarde's modal society of imitation and infection. For baud its semiotics that flows through the metaphysics of society

>>9850583
>Anyone who watched his latest Bible video must have noticed that he literally cried for half the video and sounded so frail.
Care to point to an example? I'm not up to his latest one yet but from what I have seen, he gets emotional but never sounds like he's about ready to collapse. It usually compliments whatever it is he's talking about.

>>9850618
Honestly, who would prefer a job as a professor when you could be a cult leader that leeches over $50k off your cultists a month? I'm betting he's ready for retirement once his scam online university kicks off.

>>9850784
>being this cynical and devoid of empathy

>>9840356
Modernity is pro-christian?

>>9846349
goteem nigga

>>9850784
>I find this person's content interesting and valuable, so I give him a donation.
>I am a cult member.

>>9850784
the thing that kills me about that dude is his "lectures" or "talks" or whatever have no content whatseover, it's just "omg derrida what an idiot, trannies are fucking sick, gimme shekels" i don't get how people get pulled in by this dude

>>9851221
You should watch one, they're actually quite interesting.

>>9851221
can you post one where he asks for money?

when he set up a gofundme page, faggot

>>9851246
He set up a gofundme during a lecture? That's fucking weird.

>>9851261
tell me an idea of jordan peterson that isn't retarded

>>9851221

I do really think his political/philosophical tirades are weird, but watch his psych lectures, they're really interesting. He's a pretty captivating lecturer, and all my friends who took his course has had very nice things to say

>>9851276
i've had captivating lecturers but none of them are so tasteless to set up a youtube channel and try to become an e-celeb to trump voters

>>9851280

Can you really blame the guy for knowing his audience? I'd sell out for $55k/month easy. Also, he originally had his youtube to record lectures for his students.

I don't agree his original intention was to try to become the alt-right poster boy, I think a part of him originally did believe he was fighting for the right thing, but its gotten so fucking out of hand I dont even know if he believes half the things he say anymore

>>9840376
Best answer gets no replies

Great job /lit/

>>9851266
I haven't heard one that is, other than his laughable interpretation of postmodernism.

>>9840260

as broad and simple as possible, this is how i understand it:


All knowledge is just human creation

These human creations never exceed their epochal, cultural, social situation.

Everything is interpretation, perspective, etc. "values"

Distrust of all rigid all encompassing world-explanations (including and especially Enlightenment reason)

"deconstruction" is basically just reading texts with all the above in mind, 'thinking the unthought'

the stuff everyone rages against like relativism etc is still seen as a negative outcome of flawed thought. there are no actual relativists (in the whole world)

pretty much everyone that has ever logged onto 4chan is postmodern. even conservatives on here think the above is true + that's why you need tradition and religion

>>9851295
the only thing i heard from him that wasn't either generic or pandering to the alt-right was the thing about how gender reassignment isn't an effective treatment for gender dysphoria, if any treatment lead to the suicide rates than trans people face it would not be continued, but for some reason no one can criticize transgenderism, i'm not even opposed to people becoming trannies, but this idea that someone has "gender dysphoria" and being a tranny will cure it is bizarre, it's like saying if someone is anorexic we should help them lose weight so they can finally feel thin, so ok, he was right on that, but a stopped clock is right twice a day, the rest of his stuff just always seemed fairly content free, he just does a lot of zizek tier name dropping but not even as good

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>>9851217
>I-It's not a cult I swear!

>>9841022
>man makes his ideas and his reflections on other ideas a product and people pay him to create that product
>OMGGGG!!!!! He's a cult leader!!!!!

Peterson deserves legitimate criticisms but much of /lit/ is just jealous of SortMans success

>>9851304
I swear to god you can find retards like this following every well known person, that doesn't make all of them cults

>>9851303
Gender reassignment surgeries is one of those ethical minefields in which there's just no right solution. But I can tell you the one of the major reason it still exists is that despite the relatively high suicide rates (which isn't too far from other disorders), there is almost no one who undergoes the surgery and regrets it.

>>9851303
The tranny stuff, while true, is pretty mundane and has been said a thousand times by other people. His Bible series is more interesting.

>>9851304
Once you hear stuff like that from himself and not just internet autists, you have a point.

What the fuck is this bizarre forced pairing with Peterson and Trump / alt right? He called MGTOW and misogynists pathetic, called out the alt right nationalists as a bunch of kids looking for daddy, shit on Frozen particularly because he believes in the mutual dependency of men and women (but the same criticism goes to the MRAs), does not think the Nazis were people to be idolized, etc. etc.

So he said some shit about SJWs, he's said shit about everyone. That does not mean he's some neo Nazi nationalist weirdo.

>>9851328
>His Bible series is more interesting.

his bible shit sucks, it might seem good if you've never heard any biblical hermeneutics or criticism ever, which most of his fanbase seem to be uneducated people in flyover country

>>9851355

It's not a forced pairing because the alt right loves him, just look at his youtube comments. Although its not entirely representative of his entire fanbase, you can still see a lot of them are the alt right type

I don't understand either why the alt right loves him so much, but its dumb to deny he's not popular with them. Maybe it's just because he's hated by left wing people, and alt right people just love pissing the left off

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/448714/jordan-p-peterson-self-help-guru-father-figure

>n-not a cult!!

>>9851376

See
>>9851321
>>9851328

>>9851362
three strikes in one line, that's impressive

>>9851374
>Maybe it's just because he's hated by left wing people, and alt right people just love pissing the left off
Overall it sounds horrid and like all sides are mangling him to suit their agendas.

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>>9851376
>nationalreview.com

>>9851385
Just because he hasn't explicitly said "I am a cult leader and a direct messenger from God" doesn't mean that it Peterson's following isn't cult. His rhetoric has still managed to create one. It might be by accident, even.

Just read that article:

>YouTube’s New Father Figure, Self-help guru Jordan B. Peterson
>It works because Peterson connects his message to something eternal, offering mytho-intellectual fatherly advice that men, especially Millennial men, are starved for in an age of perpetual and trivial digital distraction.
>I’d always thought I was a pretty well-adjusted person, free from things like petty envy or road rage. Sure I had problems, but I always thought they were worries about the future, not demons from my past. Then I discovered Peterson on YouTube, and he helped me understand that I share in the human condition, which is to say, I’m a mess.

It's pretty much a straight cult confessional.

>>9851394
you really think his weak ass bible lectures are insightful? i've heard better shit from southern megachurches, and it's certainly not scholarly

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>>9850642
Baudrillard's a semiological idealism, i.e. anti-realism. People are worlds apart. Plural.

I'm still struggling to understand what modernism is. I gravitate towards the perspective of the Traditionalists (like Guenon and Schuon) that something is radically different about the general flavor of our era's ideas, but I am at a loss as to what exactly it is which distinguishes modernity from traditional societies.

I suppose positivists and early sociologists (Comte, Durkheim, Marx et al.) also share this opinion in this most general sense.

Something is radically different today than ever before. Is it the means of production or the rise of secular societies? Is it a material phenomenon or a spiritual phenomenon with material consequences? I don't know.

Maybe there's "nothing new under the sun" after all. I don't know.

To declare a "Post modernist" idea is to declare a third phase of history, and I'm at a loss as to what that might be, in terms of ideas.

Of course one must be careful to distinguish the use of "postmodern" in, say, architecture, from "postmodern" in a philosophical or history-of-ideas sense. This is pretty basic.

I have no fucking time for these idiots who feel looking up "Postmodernism" on Wikipedia may shed light on the problem. If anything, the term can only have meaning if it demarcates the effect of the internet on ideas, I think. I don't know.

I don't fucking know /lit/. Do you? I don't think so. Then again I don't know.

>>9851376
>In short, Peterson speaks the way I always wished my father had.
Good Lord these people have issues.

>>9851427
>1
Yes, they might have had bad fathers. So?

>>9851427
i wish peterson talked like a father figure, that would at least make a mediocre self-help speaker, whenever i watch his lectures it's just these little one sentence quips about this or that author with no depth and no real point, so bad

>>9851433
I think it's a bit messed messed up that some charismatic psychologist can just manipulate people into thinking he's what your parents should have been and to donate him all their savings on Patreon. Almost cultlike, even.

>>9851434
You see no point in his lectures because you lack the capacity to interpret allegory. He is talking constantly about allegory, and while everything he says has already been said or written elsewhere, it is being delivered in a way that is reaching new ears.

>>9851435
Has he begged for any money in his actual streams?

>Manipulate.
Doesn't take manipulating to say that. I could say that about some person, my father was not a good man.

>>9851435
dude, it's actually kind of cool to see a modern day cult though, like i always heard about jim jones and how charismatic he was, and how he did all this work to bring races together and people just loved him so much, and there were the moonies, and then there was an indian guru around the same time rishi or something, and i was always like sure you get these small wacko cults like heavens gate or the branch davidians, but there hasn't been a real major jim jones tier dude in our lifetimes

>>9851435
>Almost cultlike, even.

also he's doing this "get away from your family" shit that's another cult red flag, yeah, neets need to leave the basement, but kinda odd for a family values conservative bible guy to tell you to leave your family

>>9851449
Peterson is (politically) self-admitted liberal, not conservative tho.

>>9851449
>kinda odd for a family values conservative bible guy to tell you to leave your family
How are you supposed to start your own otherwise? Growing up and leaving your nest is fundamental to that process.

>>9851444
oh are you that guy who got molested and is now a religious wacko? it was your dad? i always figured it was a priest, so did u really leave the church and become hindu? or were u larping in the other thread?

>>9851455
No? You need to take pills, your psychosis is kicking off.

>>9851453
most asian cultures sees multiple generations under one roof as the ideal, and latin americans also have multiple generations in one household

>>9851460
>asian cultures
>latin americans
Yeah, whatever.

>>9851452
the funniest part is when he says "university should not be a safe space, your ideas should be radically challenged" but then complains that post-modern thinkers are too radical, seems like he needs a safe space

>>9851453
Families lived together all the time in the past.

>>9851464
until greedy housing merchants like the kushners convinced everyone to buy a house in the suburbs it was normal for americans too

>>9851465

yeah, hilarious anon. you're smarter than him for sure.

>>9851460
>Chinks.
>Spics.
Oh wew, found the deluded SJW that thinks other cultures are better than whites.

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>>9851423
>Then again I don't know.
How about you stop being a brainlet and crying Wikipedia for no reason, and read these people yourself. The target audience for pic related are politicians, the stupidest people imaginable, so it's not a particularly challenging text either. Having a clue about the late Wittgenstein always helps, but Lyotard knows who he's writing for and doesn't abandon the reader.

>the term can only have meaning if it demarcates the effect of the internet on ideas
Find out yourself if the account on the production of knowledge and the information age overall is correct or not. And if after the description, the proposed prescriptions are also valid.

>>9851427
By the way, this "surrogate father" thing was central to Storr's Very Short Introduction to Freud, and other writings on the subject i.e. where psychoanalysis' effectiveness really is, and Jung, by his tendency to study the shit out of religion, was perfectly and immediately aware of analysis being a secularization of Christian confession.

Now, unfortunately for the experience of many entrepreneurs, "these people" who "have issues" might not be exactly a rarity these days:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hER0Qp6QJNU

After the talk you might begin to understand why Peterson's Patreon appears to be in no shortage of funds. Supply and demand matters, but there has to be more the kid clicking on a video of his on YouTube and liking the experience.

>>9851471
the guy is a mediocre professor who turned himself into a youtube e-celeb, he's not an important thinker

>>9851466
But it's not the past. And that wasn't the case for all families, even in the past. And not all families that did this were in good shape for it.

It is also not the only reason why he would promote leaving home. He promotes exploring the unknown as part of a healthy development. Failing to make this transition in your life will end you in an Oedipal situation.

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>>9851479
just bury your head in the sand w/e

>>9851480
>Failing to make this transition in your life will end you in an Oedipal situation.

the irony is oedipus killed his father after being alienated from home, but in the freudian sense you're always in a oedipal situation growing up as soon as you realize there's this other guy you have to compete with for your mom's attention

>>9851479

And who are you ?

Doesn't Stirner blow him out?

>>9851486
you really can't tell the difference between a major scholar and an youtube celeb?

>>9851485
>the irony is oedipus killed his father after being alienated from home
There's no irony. Alienation =/= branching out voluntarily and being supported in that endeavor.

>>9851493

I don't disagree with your observation of Jordan Peterson as being a relatively minor academic figure elevated to a surprising and probably unwarranted position of prominence via the internet.

But who are you again?

>"Stop trying to change society and sort yourself oot"
>Is a neurotic mess who's constantly ranting about how society is collapsing
>"Therapy makes you stronger"
>Self-admittedly has never had therapy in his life and tries to self-cure his depression by reading Jung
Practice what you preach, dumb canuck

>>9851497
the point is you're always in conflict with your father, which is why having a father figure is fucking gay, growing up is opposing your father

>>9851500
>unwarranted.
deserves got nothing to do with it sonny.

>>9851500
>But who are you again?

as another youtube eceleb and intellectual poseur says "not an argument"

>>9851500
>But who are you again?

there are 1.54 million professors in the united states, peterson is not special

>>9851503
>the point is you're always in conflict with your father
The meat of that story is not in the relationship with the father but with the mother. The overbearing Oedipal relationship with the mother (the representative of the nest) is not universal.

>>9843633
And what precisely would be your alternative?

>>9851509
>not special.
29 million hits in Google today, certainly something made him standout from rest of the Marxists.

>>9851515
yeah, pandering to the alt-right and paying viral marketers

>>9851518
>alt-right
Found the leftypol from the thread.

>>9851468
Guess what faggot, western civilization has grown and become more advanced since then. So cry about it all you want but we wouldn't have made it this far without the change. Maybe you don't care about where we are now, but that's because you're a faggot.

>>9851468
>until greedy housing merchants like the kushners
Nobody. Is forcing you to buy house from a liberal shithole city or even a state.

>>9851526
most people moved to the suburbs because housing merchants would "bock bust" white neighborhoods and force white flight into their new developments in the burbs, get an education, get a clue

>>9851532
Not. An argument. Nobody is forcing you to rent crappy 3000 dollar closet from Rhode Island.

>>9851538
what the fuck are you even talking about? do you know anything about the history of housing in the united states? like i said get an education, get a clue

>>9841084

“The self is a relation which relates itself to its own self, or it is that in the relation that the relation relates itself to its own self; the self is not the relation but that the relation relates itself to its own self.”

So, which postmodernist philosopher is this?

(tiny tip: he is from the 19th century and danish)

>>9851543
sounds proto-analytic more than anything continental with all that asspained defining

>>9851542
Literally, nobody is forcing you to buy overexpensive shit from shit state.

>>9851549
you are completely clueless

>>9851552
>the evil kushners are forcing me to go to New York and rent expensive broom closet.

ok, sir.

>>9851552
i have to let go of this weird altruistic feeling to help plebs learn about what's being done to them, why can't i be like the merchants and just exploit them, gotta cleans my mind of spooks

>>9851556
you are so fucking stupid holy shit, the kushners own tons of property all over the north east, they've been in the real estate business since the original boom of the suburbs when they convinced saps like you to give up the best property in the cities in exchange for shitty generic housing in the middle of fucking no where and when you wouldn't go voluntarily they'd use block busting to force you to sell your shit, and since you're an /pol/clown you would have eagerly fell into the trap, although there wasn't much anyone could do at the time if they didn't want to eat a big loss

>>9851561
>the evil kushners force me to buy the most expensive broom closet from states where property and building houses, or renting 3bedroom houses is cheap.

talk about stupid! sad!

>just move out to bumfuck nowhere where there's no jobs
>do it now before you try and fuck your mother!

>>9851569
it's funny how the property values in the sf and nyc just keep going skyhigh while all the shitty mcansions clowns like you bought during the bush bubble aren't even worth the value of burning them as firewood

i don't see how anyone can be anti-semitic about the jews making up the lions share of the one percent, taking money from yokels like you is like candy from a baby

>>9840260
I suspect Post Modernism has a lot to do with the Feminist movement and the rise of SJWs in pop culture and such. If I were to boil it down to an ideology I would say it's at the abandonment of traditional Christian values in the West for a regressive Marxist code of behavior.

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>>9841657
>late capitalism

>>9840260
A new perspective on storytelling after the disillusionment with the world after the second world war which relies on meta shit, rejection of objectivity, structure and questioning of reality and perception of it. It's the quantum physics of literature.

>why is it bad?
But it's not. It's great. In the right hands. Otherwise it becomes a meme for shitty writers to hide their shitty writing.

>>9840356
Way to turn people to postmodernism.

>>9840260
Postmodernism is what the marxist cunts like Derrida and Fuckcoult espoused to the hoards of fucktarded college fuckwits, Fuckcoult was a communist in early life. Postmodernism is sees everything as a power struggle and so niggers being unable to be racist is an obvious consequence as they have no power.
Postmodernism is victim mentality and paranoia. You fucktards just can't into Fuckcoult and Derrida so you think it's about rejection of meta narratives, you faggots are fucking SHIT. Fuck you

>>9851355
Most of it even applies to Trump. Alt-right cucks are simply desperate for a strong daddy figure who shows them the way and will flock around anyone who says something that's considered offensive by normal people.

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>>9843662
>He blatantly misreads Nietzsche
>I haven't watched any videos where he mentions Nietzsche
What did he mean by this?

>>9851666
It's a /lit/ contrarian babby trying to show off online. Ignore him!

>>9851417
Yes of the self but not of society. Communication theory via tarde

Postmodernism is basically the idea that nothing is real, and everything is subjective. It leads to ideas like moral relativism and racial egalitarianism, which are both destructive to society. There is, of course, a subjective interpretation of everything, but reality is still there. Postmodernism takes traditions that we have built over literally millions of years of evolution by natural selection such as gender roles and throws them out the window, leading to a degenerate society where mental illness is praised and the race that built everything that you guys love on this shitty board (that didn't have a single thread about books on the front page 5 minutes ago) is reduced to a minority in their own natural habitats, leading to the rise of insane left and right wing ideologies such as communism and fascism in order to set things straight.
tl;dr it destroys culture

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>>9851713
Nope nope nope, the proliferation of signs and society of simulations that dominate Baudrillard's subject are not "of the self."

>>9851724
>Postmodernism is basically the idea that nothing is real, and everything is subjective.

Fucking no.

>>9851724
Why do people presume to set forth on postmodernism when it's clear they haven't even read Kant?

>>9851662
Whereas Derrida would be like 'if violent revolution was the result of historical circumstances, why do the proletariat need Marx to tell them to revolt?'

>>9851725

Not that guy but you sound triumphant, like you've understood something, and have said something definite.

It's kind of cute.

>>9851515
Indeed, and the Macarena stood out from pop music.

>>9851734

You won't like this at all but the other anon's assessment of what it really means in practice is actually true, or as close to being a true and fair assessment of things as makes no difference. So you don't have any sort of a right to be upset, you see.

or else you can educate me on how "skepticism toward metanarratives", ugly pretend-café (post-2010, now is as good a time as 20 years ago) McDonald's buildings, and multiculturalism are meaningfully distinctive in practice from the above basically correct assessment. You will be found wanting.

>>9851742
no u

>>9851734
While that may not be the exact definition of postmodernism, it is most definitely what the philosophy is.

>>9851757
If anything postmodernism suggests imitation is as real as what is imitated, i.e. the 'original'. It's not that nothing is real, it's that everything is real.

>>9851739
Sure, I haven't read much Kant, but I followed the OP and gave my definition, even though I have only listened to a few of JPs Bible lectures. Can you tell me how my interpretation of, at the very least, the effects of postmodernism is wrong? Or are you just going to say I'm wrong because I haven't read a lot of Kant?

>>9851781
First anon here. I really do not see much of a difference between nothing is real and everything is real, as they are both just a rejection of what reality actually is. You are right, but in effect these are the same thing. They legitimize anything and everything someone wants to do.

>>9851785
If nothing is real then nothing matters. If everything is real then everything matters. They are two different positions entirely. The former rejects reality or the idea that anything could possibly be real, the latter suggests that anything is legitimate because it involves a process of creation and that any such elements of reality can have a trajectory or narrative. To me the latter is a lot more constructive and positive, and I would be surprised if anyone disagreed with that assessment.

>>9851796
Okay, I like that answer and I agree with the definition. Still, lending legitimacy to anything and everything somebody wants to do is wrong. It still leads to moral relativism and the normalization of mental illnesses because people do not have any tradition that they need to protect. It still destroys cultures and allows them to be taken over by other groups of humans who have not fallen to such ideologies. Would you agree with that?

>>9851796

>Ben Stiller sentence structure, token phrases

Mimetic overload

>>9851796
>If everything is real then everything matters.
but why can't shit matter while also being called out for the deception it is

>the latter suggests that anything is legitimate because it involves a process of creation and that any such elements of reality can have a trajectory or narrative
how do you even expose liars if everything is legit and on the same level

>To me the latter is a lot more constructive and positive, and I would be surprised if anyone disagreed with that assessment
in which layer of hyperreality are trump's alternative facts positive

>>9851725
That's what I said. His self is irreal but not his society vis a vis tarde. Deleuze is the same. They both believe very deeply in the metaphysics of modal imitation and infection. His society is real

>>9851831
>His society is real
Baudrillard isn't content with stopping at Debord's relationshits between people mediated by images, he plunges us into the hyper real where there's no telling simulation from a non-mediated reality that doesn't involve communication f.e. rain on my fucking umbrella comes from clouds not journalists' piss and contempt

>>9851839
You're not addressing my point. This is useless.

>>9851809
Well moral relativism isn't necessarily bad. It's the same logic underneath everyone having their own ethnonational state. Everyone left to their own devices, to engage contractually in whatever laws they want. But this is kind of a default position of Western countries, that the highest law is in a sense a kind of lawlessness within reason; that anything is allowed unless it threatens the authority that allows, e.g. Nazism. Everything is about 'consenting adults' which goes back to classical liberalism and blank slates at least, i.e. if someone disagrees with you, find someone who doesn't. This is kind of what is implied by the 'local narratives' of Lyotard (as opposed to meta-narratives) and people develop their own traditions. Of course this 'freedom of association' idea is supported by the Western tradition which people take for granted. I do think more people should not take it for granted and acknowledge that tradition. The arts are a kind of microcosm for this; the 'anything can be art' attitude is supported by the artistic pedigree of the gallery space and the art-historical knowledge of its curators.

I think the West sees ethnostates as a stepping stone towards international capitalism, likely representative of the course towards global hegemony as seen in the West. I don't know if an ethnostate could take over an internationalist state very easily -- at least that's the hope. It's true that the basis of this hegemony, capitalism, has 'destroyed culture' in a way, but I guarantee that if we were suddenly thrown into a new world order over night that in no way resembled our contemporary society, there would be a great societal nostalgia for what we had lost. I am appreciative of our time but I do know it has flaws, notably the kind of dulling of the senses one gets from passively consuming today's media. But there are ways of thinking about what one consumes that puts it in an historical context that is interesting and challenging. Everything is real, after all.

>>9851831
>>9851839
>>9851845
sometimes i suspect that continentals do this do this to spark hope for private language theory again.

>>9851851

>private language theory

Never a thing.

>>9851829
Trump's alternative facts are just more means in a sea of means. They don't justify themselves. I am someone who values truth, or what is most likely to be true, and I have faith that other people are as rational. How often do juries get verdicts wrong? Some narratives are more compelling than others, and evidence presented in court depends on the most probable narrative to arrive at a verdict. But if anything is legitimate, then these narratives themselves are open to interpretation with other narratives, etc. If our postmodern attitude to scholarship remains, posterity will separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak, even if we are negatively influenced by an acceptance of alternative facts as true for the time being, or for a couple of months, or whatever. We historical now.

>>9851851
It's p straight forward.

>>9851848
I understand your logic and agree with your first paragraph after the first sentence. I disagree that ethnostates are a stepping stone towards international capitalism. The most rabid capitalists are the ones that are for the importation of radically different peoples from incompatible civilizations and the melding of all cultures until we become one monolith of a society that they can easily sell to. Interesting point with the capitalism destroying culture, but I would say that the civilizations that naturally evolved into capitalism have had far more harm done to them while trying to switch to an society that was not capitalist. Although forcing capitalism on civilizations that had not developed in the same way may very well destroy their culture. Still, I feel like the natural order of things is capitalism, and that any form of equality died 1000's of years ago, although we definitely didn't have it back then either.

I still stand with the belief that moral relativism is a bad thing. It is not rare for babies to be raped in South Africa in order to cure aids. I would make the argument that raping babies, especially while you have aids, is morally wrong, and that any objective observer would agree.

>>9843118
For what concerns philosophy, this is nonsense. Lyotard, Derrida, Foucault, Deleuze etc. were fundamental to the movement and not American.

>>9851884
South Africa is not in a postmodern condition. Postmodernism expresses itself in WEIRD societies. It's not meant to be universal but a specific diagnosis of our social relations

>>9851901
Good point. I would still say that in any discussion of morals in Western society there is a right and a wrong that can be decided objectively.

>>9851884
I think the importation of others still means they are subsumed into a Western system. Like you say they are being sold to (e.g. a manufactured identity, essentially, through TV and film) and ISIS isn't exactly getting pardoned on the basis of religious expression. There are complications with media representations of crime of course (which goes both ways), and the state isn't generally going to get things right when it imposes itself (e.g. its fair to say that quotas or 'forced multiculturalism' can be handled in a bad way) but the funny thing is that these are postmodernist criticisms from 50 years ago. They were very aware of the manipulative power of institutions like news, politics, and media to cycle through the illusions of choice and change through a system that is otherwise perpetually the same, and they knew that the information these institutions based their policy on could be manipulated or fabricated too. Deconstruction in its proper Derridean (not TV tropes) sense is a good answer to this; a critical close-reading of texts to see how they can hypocritically counter their own arguments in their execution. It requires a good background of reading though which I agree is a suitable solution which I think I hinted at in my last reply. These 'trajectories and narratives' we draw through the history of higher thought is what should pass as tradition rather than the institutions which, as the right is now aware, can't wholly be trusted.

Some other notes:
- the growth of capitalism aided in upsetting the stability of the Ancien Regime and is one of a few main causes for the French revolution
- Marxism is a philosophical extension of classical liberalist premises such as blank slates, and in fact is supposed to occur -after- capitalism, which is too an extension of the same premises
- Internationalist intervention like if the West were to send in troops to crack down on baby-raping to me is something to be avoided and probably has many strange conditions for its existence that won't normally go acknowledged. Similarly I think forcing feminism, as an example, on societies who lack the societal prerequisites for its development is dangerous even if the West sees it as fundamentally right

>>9851899
The application of that philosophy changed though when it was translated and published in America. The US already had a kind of postmodernist background in the arts (which was trying to separate itself from European tradition) and some science as well (I always cite cybernetics as an example of this), and certainly the postmodern condition was most fully realised in America first, considering Europe had been destroyed in the war. Aside from this, the general movement towards social justice was something that was already underway by the time of continental influence, and fits comfortably with the 'questioning' of Western values based on their own premises, e.g. if it is only white men who are allowed to participate in the liberalist society.

>>9851910
I'm not sure about objectively but I would say we have a very good baseline set in law. I'm just trying to refocus the discussion that po-mo has the same goals as j-pete. It's trying to think through atomisation caused by rapid capital and technological growth. I tend to find that gets lost in academic shitfights.

>>9851873
>How often do juries get verdicts wrong? Some narratives are more compelling than others
why would i change anything about my ontology because rhetorics happens
or more generally because in somebody else's episteme shit happens

>evidence presented in court depends on the most probable narrative to arrive at a verdict
or maybe somebody is bribing or threatening the people in charge

>But if anything is legitimate, then these narratives themselves are open to interpretation with other narratives
why must we acknowledge shit's legitimacy to interpret it
hello where did the skepsis go

>I have faith that other people are as rational
>posterity will separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak
why do you believe the moderns' meta-narrative again

>>9851933
Maybe your ontology is wrong, maybe your epistemology is wrong, maybe you teleology is wrong. How are you to know other than justifying it through the history of what others have said regarding these subjects? Well you can only do that by reading the 'imitation' of speech which has its own unique consequences outside of logical argument to arrive at a truth.

>or maybe somebody is bribing or threatening the people in charge
Sure it can happen which is why I introduced frequency to the question. How often does something like that happen?

>why must we acknowledge shit's legitimacy to interpret it
You don't have to -- it depends on what justifies what you consider legitimate. But the point is that any source can be used rather than just the sources of the sources. But I'd have a hard time arguing that a Pollock painting is about the triumph of America over Nazism.

>why do you believe the moderns' meta-narrative again
I don't and nothing I said indicates that I do. I don't think people are 100% rational machines and I don't think that the past should be ignored for the amazing potentials of the future.

>>9851959
>Maybe your ontology is wrong, maybe your epistemology is wrong, maybe you teleology is wrong.
you didn't answer the question: why

>How are you to know other than justifying it through the history of what others have said regarding these subjects?
my phenomenology doesn't marginalize and discriminate against phusis to pretend only the stupid opinions of nomos exist like can we stop bullying the body already pls

>How often does something like that happen?
you have no idea yourself

>it depends on what justifies what you consider legitimate
skepsis is skepsis it doesn't depend on shit

>I don't think people are 100% rational machines and I don't think that the past should be ignored for the amazing potentials of the future.
neither did the modernists

>>9852084
I don't know what you think suggests change.

>only the stupid opinions of nomos exist
Opinions? Only? This argument does not fit.

>neither did the modernists
Then what are you saying? (Also yes they did)

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Postmodernism is what the snake said.

>>9840260
>what is postmodernism

Trick question. Post-modernism has never defined itself and never wished to do so. Otherwise it wouldn't be post-modernism because giving meaning to something is the construction of a grand narrative

What i do associate post-modernism with tho, is irony, skepticism and post-structuralism

>why is it bad

Not necessarily bad. Post-modernism gave the western world some time to analyze and reflect on the things it's made out of both in the past and in the present.

I'd argue that the thing which is bad was the fact that most post-modernists were elitist shitheads coming from the upper classes who liked to wank each other off in a perpetual circlejerk they never realized they were part of.

But more importantly, it was the newer generation of intellectuals who grew up in this ideological climate, have inherited the idea that absolutely nothing is certain in this world, a thing which ultimately created uncertainty into the mass of people, now stripped of any means to defend anything they stand for.

It's these new generations that make up the post-post-modernist current. The real problem here is that we don't know what the characteristics of the current period we are living today look like.

>>9852553

Oh, and also Post-Modernism was the ideological backbone for neoliberal capitalism to overtake western society, which is really fucking bad and it's the reason as to why everyone is either apathetic to today's world affairs, or ideological/political radicals who have no other perspective on life other than self-interest and the self-nominated definition of truth

>>9840260
Shouldn't you be cleaning your room, OP?

>>9840260
Even though i agree that peterson has a rudimentary understanding of pomo based entirely on the flawed 'understanding postmodernism' book by hicks, i still think he is dealing with the problem of our time that is leading to the destruction of society; that problem being the idea of morality without the axiom of god. To me that is what draws such a large following to him and why he is such an important intellectual figure

>>9851460
>>9851468
>>9851532
You completely missed the symbolic meaning of what leaving your family entails. It doesn't necessarily mean physically moving out. It just means branching away from your family's values and confronting outside values, learning from them, developing your own through the experience. This is especially important if your family is dysfunctional. It's a basic, ancient piece of wisdom - War is the father of all things, after all.

>>9852452
>I don't know what you think suggests change.
a plurality of language names yelling at each other in a dick size contest is an observation that however correct says nothing about what does or does not exist don't confuse epistemology with ontology

>Opinions? Only? This argument does not fit.
"the history of what others have said" has nothing to do with my body being scratched by some other object the wound is not written by a dead white man philosopher
are you sure you're not a medieval catholic that thinks st augustine is angry at me or maybe an animist as i said stop marginalizing the body

>Then what are you saying?
that the future and the people thereof can bury just as they can unveil as the farther in time you go the harder is to catch kennedy's assassin or w/e people can forget and die
and i ain't advocating to treat trump's alternative facts as legitimate constructive or positive when we can deal without
what if you could have some other way to deal with a belief rather than accept it first and dump the questioning to the jetsons

>>9851376
oh you're that leaf from /pol/ who samefags entire threads against Peterson
good thing this place doesn't have IDs huh>

I sometimes doubt he's actually that good at applying psychology outside of his lectures.

A person like Molyneux totally fits Peterson's explanation, which appears in one of his lectures that you can find on youtube, of how a sociopath/psychopath thinks and behaves, yet Peterson has no problem with fraternizing with le 1-dollar man.

>>9852698
What I've been saying is that the things that proceed immediately from the body, or the more 'natural' things like speech, aren't necessarily more legitimate because they proceed more closely from that source. It's not marginalising the body to say that the imitations the body produces, drawing from or imitating or repeating or creating an illusion of a more immediate somatic source, have a legitimacy of their own: say that writing has features not bugs. Writing exists.

Regarding alternative facts I don't mean that they are legitimate in the way that they provide a window onto truth, I mean that they exist and are as scrutable as a book or list of ingredients or washing instructions. Also I introduced the idea of constructive and positive in a context; that the idea everything is real is more constructive than the nihilist idea of denying reality and suggesting that postmodernism isn't nihilism. Being more constructive and positive than nihilism doesn't mean that every possible text in the postmodern condition has positive and constructive use. But like from an historical standpoint alternative facts are pretty interesting.

>>9840585
Looking up to people and aspiring to be like them is inherently cult like when you don't like what the father figure has to say. To the left he espouses wrong think and that makes him a perfect target for accusations like that.

>>9853725
>It's not marginalising the body to say that the imitations the body produces
the scratch near my elbow is not an imitation it's not some stupid text holy shit can we institutionalize every single semiological idealist before it's too late those ghosts in your head need some treatment

>say that writing has features not bugs
i say eco was right a sign is anything that can be used to lie

>Being more constructive and positive than nihilism
in which universe is that supposed to be an impressive achievement

>>9853854
The body doesn't produce the scratch. We're talking about imitations so if the scratch isn't an imitation it doesn't have anything to do with the argument.

Yes signs lie. This is not a point of contention. Like I said I don't mean legitimate as offering truth other than the truth of its own existence. A reproduction of the Mona Lisa still involves a process of painting, even though it is less 'true' than the original. It is still a work. With alternative facts we can still look at how they are created regardless if we agree with them or not.

>>9852553
>But more importantly, it was the newer generation of intellectuals who grew up in this ideological climate, have inherited the idea that absolutely nothing is certain in this world, a thing which ultimately created uncertainty into the mass of people, now stripped of any means to defend anything they stand for.
I dig this explication. Are there any books you recommend about this phenomenon?

>>9840472

You just had to ruin what could have been a decent summary by sucking the putzes of a few dead kikes who nobody gives a shit about, didn't you? Godwin's law doesn't actually apply to arguments, per se - just to any conversation where a pseud is present.

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>>9851449
>also he's doing this "get away from your family" shit that's another cult red flag

you fucking dishonest piece of shit. he's telling you to get out of your parents' house and create your own life. isn't this what you leftists have been shaming right wingers with for years?

>>9840472

Philosophy is an effect of history, not its cause. You're a poor sophist.

>>9851217
textbook cult.

>>9854805
What's the problem with cults anyway? We don't have enough of them as far as I'm concerned.

>>9854061
>The body doesn't produce the scratch.
yes it does by rubbing against another object you retard
when a book falls in the other room it fell when my elbow is scratched it was scratched whichever god human agent or physical law you blame to rationalize what happened is a post hoc intepretation of the fact that the damn thing did absolutely happen
human communication is not some immanent god present in all things and events phusis doesn't need nomos nomos needs phusis you have ghosts in your head

>>9854410
Are you sure only a sophist would say ideas have consequences on other people's ideas or behavior? Do you perhaps think the American Revolution predates the ideas of the Founding Fathers?

>>9855115
>the damn thing did absolutely happen
>human communication is not some immanent god present in all things

I don't doubt either of these things. What is your point?

>>9840260
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naWWzn2fxWc

>>9855141
you began by asking
>How are you to know other than justifying it through the history of what others have said regarding these subjects?
and i replied
>my phenomenology doesn't marginalize and discriminate against phusis to pretend only the stupid opinions of nomos exist like can we stop bullying the body already pls
since you end up agreeing with me that you wouldn't doubt these things well there's your grounding for epistemology namely experience and phusis not the opinions of dead white men and dictionary publishers
the farther we stay from the bullshit of signs and their deceptions the better was it aristotle's organon ranking nature perception oral speech written word in that order well w/e he was right

>>9855183
Sure they're bullshit but they exist, they are experienced.

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Admit it /lit/. You only dislike Peterson because of his recent fame.

He is smarter than literally everybody on this shitty website.

>>9855206
baudrillard's simulacra fake news on tv or bodies made of pixels being ran over by a car in some videogame can be said to "exist" only as far as they show up on a screen and somebody that gives a damn is there to pay attention to them
they can be interpreted and recalled in memory as many times as you want but an ontological analysis shows they are contingent as fuck signs without referents experience without phusis
if they don't forget the difference between ontology and epistemology and that human communication isn't everywhere then people don't lose the ability to tell fiction from reality for instance i cannot pull the plug on my injuries to make them disappear tho i sure wish i could
i want no red or blue pill i want žižek's third pill

>>9843767
>it isn't bad to hear Petersons perspective

It's either intellectually harmful or a waste of time.

>>9843642
>I don't care if they aren't his own words

Incidentally, they aren't the words of Freud, Jung, or Nietzsche. Just read those thinkers you child.