Just applied for law school, /lit/. Any essential legal core

>>9838737
probably the thing that has all the laws for your country in it

>>9838737
Where did you apply anon? I'll be following suit in a few years time. What was your GPA and LSAT?

I remember being this naive. I actually don't.

>>9838737
"Getting to Maybe" and "The Paper Chase" obviously.

>>9838737
On Crimes and Punishments by Beccaria

>>9838737
The Law by Bastiat

>>9839467
I'm also curious about this. Applying within the next few months.

You're all making a serious mistake.

t. Lawyer

>>9838737

The Trial by Kafka
Bleak House by Dickens

>>9838737
If applying in the States- Learned Hand's The Spirit of Liberty, etc. Also, Gunther's bio of Hand. Make sure he's your legal hero going in. Help keep his spirit alive.

>>9838737
Read Hans Kelsen and Norberto Bobbio.
You gon b gud

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>>9839923
>>9839470

Everyone told me that, and I didnt listen. Got accepted, and then saw this chart. Then I looked at avg debt, and IBR/PSLF availability vs number of grads vs public interest jobs.

Fucking dropped

I hope you are at least considering to learn german, spanish, french, italian and Latin. Basically every relevant philosopher wrote about law. Norberto Bobbio, Giovanni Sartori, Carlos Santiago Nino, Ferrajoli, Atienza, Hans Kelsen, John Rawls, Aristotle, Plato, Hegel, del Vecchio, Saint Thomas, Thomas Moore, Robert Alexy, Francisco Suarez, Rudolf von Ihering, Savigny, Planiol, Ripert, Boulanger, Messineo, Vivante, Domenico Barbero, Francesco Carnelutti, Giuseppe Chiovenda, Piero Calamandrei, Francesco Carrara, Luis Jiménez de Asúa, Colin et Capitant, Mazeaud, Tung, Michelle Taruffo, Schmitt, Loewenstein, Agamben, Duverger, Hauriou, Garcia Pelayo... The list is some never ending shit. I also seriously hope you're going to law school in a non common law country (civil law).

>>9840136
who are all those lawyers getting paid exactly $160,000? what government position is that?

>>9840436
Those are big firm jobs, they start at 160-200ish depending on what market you're in. Government jobs typically pay between 45 and 70ish to start (the higher end being a federal position located in DC or a very expensive city like NYC or San Fran).

A big firm job is lots of money, but I hope you like working 80+ hours a week, even during Christmas, until you're 70 years old.

>>9840415
>Almost no German legal theorists
>No Portuguese legal philosopher
>No Brazilian legal theorist
Kys

>>9840468
Thats's just basic stuff, but enlighten me. Seriously. I also like Werner Goldschmidt.

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>>9840468
>monkeys
>laws

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>>9840415
>Forgetting about based Von Liszt
He's judging you, anon

>>9840503
Kek

>>9840136
Wishimajoredinbusiness.jpg
I doubled in history and political science....Poli sci should have been business.

I'm retaking the LSAT in the winter. I didn't study which was retarded (got a 152). Hope to go into IP law or something at U of I.

Is this a mistake? I don't need to make Gordan Gecko bucks. Just $100,000. You don't get any happier making more than that anyway and I recognize time with your wife and kids is important because I'm not a moron. Any jobs with my shitty law-only degrees that pay $100,000? I figured I'd start with a higher salary in law and I also like it.

>>9840436
starting salary for junior associates in major markets is $180k

>>9838737
holmes, the common law
posner, the essential holmes

>>9840719
you cant go into IP with a B.A. lol

>>9840736
Wait what how? Well it wasn't just IP. Few other areas of interest.

Basically is corporate law in general worth it

>>9840759
You need a hard science or engineering BS to go into patent. You can't sit for the exam (you have to get an additional certification as a patent attorney along with your regular law license) without one. I mean you could maybe worm your way into doing arts stuff, like working with record labels and such, but you'll never touch most IP work without being registered with the USPTO.

Corporate law is a very nebulous term that encompasses a lot of different things. Typically it's transactional work: mergers and acquisitions, negotiating contracts, that sort of thing. Whether it's "worth it" is something that only you can answer.

You need to work on your LSAT, seriously take a class if you can, it took me from a 151 (no studying at all) to a 163. If you want a big firm job, which are pretty much the only ones that are going to start in the 100k+ range, you need to be prepared to work like you've never worked before in your life during law school, AND you need to be smart about picking your classes and lucky enough to not get fucked over by a grading curve. You also can't be a complete autist, you need to be able to get through an interview without saying something weird. A big firm won't even look at you when you're coming out of school unless you have absolutely stellar grades and/or serious connections. Also, this goes without saying, but you'll never get a job with a big firm coming out of some fly by night law school or a shitty one in a big market. If you can't get into a T14 school, look at going to a big state school in the area where you want to work. Like if you wanted to work in Atlanta and couldn't get into an Ivy, Vandy, Duke, etc. I would try to go to Georgia, Alabama, UNC, etc.

I work for a state government agency doing healthcare regulation and trying administrative cases. My hours are excellent, but the work is only so-so (I spend most of my days taking licenses from nurses and doctors with drug problems) and the pay is atrocious, I only make 70k after being here for 5 years. It's not a bad gig and I'm gonna stay in government for another 5 years to get my loans forgiven but I'm definitely not happy with my situation.

>>9840502
I don't know where you're from, but the top legal theorists all know Portuguese and are affiliated with Portuguese and Brazilian colleges.

>>9840955
>the top legal theorists all know Portugese are and affiliated with Portuguese and Brazilian colleges
Sure, sure, keep telling yourself this buddy.

>>9838737
>Just applied for law school
My condolences

>applied

you're not gonna get in desu

>>9840955
Could you back up those claims with some serious book recs?

about to start my first year, full ride at t20

i'd rec schmitt's nomos of the earth for fun

cicero

>>9841260
which t20?

>>9838737
Scott Turow's One L is an accurate description of what the emotional and psychological experience of the first year of law school is like.

Karl Llewellyn's The Bramble Bush is a little dated, but is accurate in its own way.

None of these sorts of books are going to help you succeed, however.

The key to success is to do the reading and then prepare an outline after each class, and then synthesize your daily outlines into a weekly outline on the weekend. Then use these weekly outlines to build up an overall course outline.

If you exercise this discipline, you will likely do well on the exams, because you will have synthesized the body of law you need to apply to the exam to "spot the issues."

Practicing law was the worst thing I ever did in my life. Don't fall for the meme, your life will be dogshit

>>9838737
Jurgen Habermas' Theory of Communicative Action

>>9840468
>>9841685
Also shoutout to my advisor Roberto Unger and `What Should Legal Analysis Become'. Frankly I don't know if it's the best starting point for Unger but it's sufficiently accessible and interesting.

>>9841699
He seems interesting. Tell us more?

>>9840938
Yeah I'm going to self study with powerscore books. It memed this one shill from a low 15X to a 175. Getting around your score is exactly what I intend to do. I really appreciate the tips. Thank you.

>>9840938
Also I live by Chicago. I plan to go to U of I, with aid if my LSAT is up to snuff.

As I said I don't want a big meme lawyer gig. Maybe starting salary of 50-60k? Then increase to 90-100 over some time. Maybe max out at 125. I know if I ask for anything more I'm going to be worked like a complete dog and I'm not made that way. I'm work to live, I don't live to work. Some people are wired to ALWAYS work. If given an axe on an island, they'll chop every tree down. This is the top guys (or girls) in every firm, business, etc. It's made of people who are hard wired like that. Fffffuck that! I'm the guy trying to surf, cracking open a coconut, or laying in the sun on the island after my work is done.

Your gig sounds comfy. Wouldn't mind that. And it sounds useful. I can deal with 70k for a little bit. Mind if I ask what your starting pay was?

Maybe I'll just do something like that. Also, my buddy at WU Madison Law said colleges that "specialize" is all advertising. You can go anywhere which is why it's best to go to t20. U of I is like top 40ish and I can easily land a job in the area so I'm cool with that.

>>9841653
Is it because you tried being the top dog instead of being comfy on the low end? Did you do public law?

I'm only looking for my salary to max at 125 which is insanely high. Give me a break, a person doesn't need anything higher than that (and even then...). Take your mammon somewhere else.

Happiness doesn't increase after 100k anyway. It's like we're not meant to make more than that...Books are cheap anyway. Plenty to do for little $...

>>9842089
>>9842073

Lol, I don't think you understand. If you you're lucky enough to even find work as a lawyer, you either work a lot, or you throw your whole life into your career. Sure, there are people who live in bumfuck farming communities who hang a shingle and do whatever comes their way, but it's exceedingly difficult to do even that as a young lawyer with little experience. You'll work just as hard for a fraction of the money and no benefits. Law is a SHIT profession unless your dad is a partner.

I work as a hospital administrator now and make more money with MUCH more free time. If I hadn't wasted my time with law, I'd probably be in an even better position.

>>9842364
Damn. Why did it get so shit? My uncle is friends with a pretty big shot lawyer. Will that count? A judge gave me his cell # for intern work. Am I in a decent position?

Hospital administration...Sounds like a business degree?

>>9838737
>applied
fist get accepted
>philosophy book recs
If you get accepted you will be too busy reading actual laws. If you do have free time , bill of right,magna carta and The Universal Declaration of Human Rights are a good pass time, learn their history and what they actually mean. maybe you will be among the few who actually gets concept of free speech and can the difference between passive and active euthanasia

>>9842522
>If you get accepted you will be too busy reading actual laws

I get that; my brother does law so I have an idea of what I would be doing when/if I start. I wanted some recs to get a nice broad understanding of law, and some philosophical/theoretical books to frame my thinking.

>>9842364
Is law school a new meme or something? Seen heaps of posts saying "I'm going to law school what should I read".

Lol

>>9842692
Shhh...It's suppsed to be a secret. Everyone's been so scared for years a few of us have been memeing that now might be a good time to get in while everyone's running in the other direction

>>9842675
>frame my thinking
Don't. framing your thinking will get in the way during learning. make passing and learning your main goal, you can always start framing after. also actually learn, I know many law students who "passed" all their classes but have not been able to pass the bar exam for 3 + years. chances are your teachers will recommend you tons of supplementary materials which you will never touch because you won't have time.
>broad understanding
avoid that as well. chances are you will start mixing up methodology of various branches or countries. basically save all that for when you are actually working. If you have free time, consider getting an internship in the area you wish to pursue

>>9838737
Unless you're aiming to get onto the supreme court reading legal theory/philosophy is a waste of your time. You aren't Atticus Finch and your job isn't to debate ethics and restructure society. Your job is to read fuckhuge books on the intricacies of contract law and remember enough to pass exams. Read everything you're told to in school and structure your life and consistent studying. The lack of good advice on studying law is staggering, all you need to do is read the basic shit consistently.

>>9841557
This is all that matters.

Can anyone speak for University of Iowa (t20)? It's highly ranked but I heard somewhere it doesn't accurately reflect it or something. Medians are low too which is enticing. Heck, UW-Madison (#33 or so, where my friend goes) has the median at 163. It's 161 at Iowa but is over ten spots higher!

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>>9842803
>You aren't Atticus Finch and your job isn't to debate ethics and restructure society.

>>9838737

All law is a Jewish fiction, and cannot, does not now, never has, and never will apply meaningfully to human beings in the just and uniform manner to which it purports. And this because human beings are of different levels of power, and thus better able to avoid the law by factors such as luck, money, and so on.

To study the law is to devote your life to a lie, OP. One can imagine a slightly superior analogue to the present situation of hiring lawyers of various ability, where every party is required to be represented by the same dumb robot which does the same things all the time. There is fairness.

Also you might try the Constitution of the United States and the Declaration, assuming you're an American. But really you should instead murder yourself for considering the false profession of the law.

Lawyers remain the scum of the earth even and especially in the case when I might need one.

Read every non-law related book you want to read before class starts. You'll have basically no time to read for pleasure during the school year.

>>9842843
The rankings between 15 and 50 are pointless. Iowa is not "top 20" in the way Penn is top 14. Iowa might go down 20 spots in 3 years (this happened to my alma matter), then recover, for seemingly no reason. Go to Iowa if you want to work in Iowa, Wisconsin if Wisconsin. Unless you get a decent scholarship at one and nothing at the other, in which case follow the money. Under no situation should you take out more than $100k or so to go to a sub Top 14 (and that might be too high).

>>9842089
>comfy on the low end

30k with 200k in student loans doing contract work for some trip and fall firm is impossible to be comfy.

Unless your dad owns a firm, or you get an in writing guaranteed scholarship for all 3 years, bad idea.

I didn't go to law school. I went to prisons.

>>9843448
Possible way to be comfy (not what I did), if you know ahead of time what you want to do and don't screw up
>Get a 165
>Go to school in a state where assistant DA's make decent living (some states they start at $60k+ in higher cost of living ares, in Boston they start at $35k)
>Go to best school you get a full ride. Probably won't be a total shithole with no alumni base because you got a 165
>Take all the criminal law/trial ad classes. Intern at DA's offices. Do moot court
>Finish in the top 1/3rd

Congrats you have a under 50 hour a week gov't job putting away criminals with no debt.

>>9843469
>>Finish in the top 1/3rd in the first year
Not saying I dont admire your accomplishment, but surely you can offer the caveat that this is not only difficult, but sometimes luck based depending on the curve or the nature of your professor.

>>9838737
Don't do it unless (A) you will graduate without debt AND you already have a job lined up through a family member, etc.; OR (B) you actually know what being a lawyer involves and sincerely love it.

I hate it.

t. Attorney

>>9843541
just quit lmfao
theres a million other things you can do... unless youre in debt

>>9843585
Bingo. I had some scholarship offers to schools in the T50-80 range but they are grade-dependent. Law school grades too subjective for that. Went to one around T45 and have 200,000k in debt, including UG (fukkin' white male so few scholarship opportunities - seriously, got ALL the pre-law and PoliSci that was offered at my Tier 4 UG for a total of 1k x 3 years).

Another shitty aspect is that while attorneys basically have to be able to pick up anything new and learn it, we're rarely /really/ qualified to do much else.

>>9843673
*200k. I'm a retard today.

>>9842089
In law its competative to the point where you will have to be pulling 60-80 hour weeks as a junior for very little money after not becoming a shell of a human being in 10-15 years time you will know enough to either start your own practice, or sell your self to government agencies for stability.

Law is terrible at providing the lifestyle you want, its highly polarised salarywise and requires ludicrous amounts of hours to be worked. There is a reason why lawyers top the figures when it comes to the profession with the most substance abuse and depression outside of military and emergency services

> There is a reason why lawyers top the figures when it comes to the profession with the most substance abuse and depression outside of military and emergency services

Seems like every profession is this way.

>>9843447
Thanks. Yeah I'm basically not going at all if I don't get decent scholarships. ILfag here, U of I is probably where I'm headed.

>>9843469
Funny, 165 was what I was going to shoot for to get good U of I aidbucks.

Might copy this plan to the T.

>>9843474
That's not my accomplishment. I said I didn't do this. I finished at the median and have about $115k in debt

>>9838737
All of Bataille just so you can have an edgy motif.

>>9844049
To clarify, you got a scholarship right? But couldn't maintain what you needed to?

THE classic bait and switch meme.
Man I'm really feeling like all this is a huge scam

>>9841699
How close were you to him?

It goes without saying that you should have a solid understanding of Logic. Propositional, and if you can, First-Order, too.

Also, read this post (you can find some book recommendations therein): http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2016/10/going-to-law-school-thinking-about-law-school-what-should-you-read.html

>>9844886
Interesting. Thanks for this resource. Glad this thread at least stays circulating.

>>9844015
>Might copy this plan to the T.

Good grades on a curve are not the result of hard work.

>>9845485
What kind of shit is that? I just get good grades if I get lucky?

Fuck that noise what horse shit

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>>9845601
youve never heard the stories of professors going to the top of a set of stairs, throwing final papers down the stairs, and having their teaching assistants grade the ones closest to the top A?

You realize at law schools, which are accepting based on similar grades (x school accepts 3.3 and 162 avg) so most of the students are exactly the same. But the professor has to provide grades on a curve. What do you do when you get an 87, 6 kids keep getting 99s, and the bulk of the class gets between 86 and 94, with a few 79s?

>>9840415
Underrated post.

>>9845618
This sounds like bullshit tbqh
All of the great law students excelled in school. Obama and Ted Cruz were both remembered by their professors as above the rest.

>>9845949
>Obama
>Ted Cruz

Harvard Law doesnt use fucking grades. NO-ONE fails and few honor, and it doesnt matter anyways because even if you dont clerk for the supreme court, you get to do some of the lower federal courts.

Have you done any research? Surely kids nowadays have a cynical law school info site on reddit. I used jdunderground

http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/ocs/employers/hls-grading-policy/

>>9840451
>>9840719
>>9840938

I'm currently in law school now and I honestly don't understand the obsession with big city firms. I'm one of the few that is fine with working in a medium sized city with a medium sized firm. Sure the pay isn't great starting out, but it scales nicely and you get a better life to work ratio.

>>9845949
Obama had a 2.something GPA...

>>9838748
seriously? nobody?

fpbp no problem

>>9845949
Obama had a B+ average at Occidental College and yet somehow got into Columbia University as a transfer student. Despite being a "top student", not a single professor can locate his thesis. Despite this flawed record, he went onto Harvard Law School. He became the head of the Harvard Law Review but never published anything. Every single sample of Obama's writing abilities retrieved from college newspapers has been a total crock of shit, and there would be no evidence of his writing ability except for one letter he supposedly wrote to his girlfriend about Eliot that was masterfully composed back at Occidental College. Even Obama's visiting lecturer days at the University of Chicago were about "race and the Constiturion" than any real topic involving intense legal analysis. What academic record do you speak of?

Ted Cruz is unironically a thousand times more intelligent than Barack Obama.

>>9846142
The Eliot letter was stupid tho

What other things can you do with a JD besides being a lawyer?

>>9846403
Politics. Teaching. Plenty of things really.

>>9846771
You're not wrong, the Talmud is a good introduction to thinking legally and, specifically, thinking extralegally.

Marx perhaps?

I always hear about "Marxist perspective" "marxist interpretation" or Marxist legal philosophy. Anyone able to confirm y/n whether Marx is worth it?

>>9845976
Right there with you.

That story about the top of the stairs thing sounds like a total myth, give me a break

>>9846836

For jurisprudence? Marx is not particularly critical.

Outside of that? Depends on what you want out of it. If you like philosophy, social science, or political science, and you're capable of giving a charitable interpretation AND being critical of what you read, it's worth the time.

So many people are caught up with the idea of Marx, or of being a revolutionary or whatnot, that they don't bother to just explore his ideas and their context.

>>9838737
Im starting berkeley law in three weeks (Parents are paying for everything so no debt). My rule is 4chan only on sunday mornings

>>9847336
God speed.

>>9844865
We fugged

>>9847336
go to church, heathen

>>9847336
>Parents are paying for everything so no debt
You could take all the money, invest it and live frugally off the interest.

>>9848249
But then i'll never get to be called doctor nor extend my douchiness to its fullest

-

Anon, JD Candidate

>>9848320
no JD goes by the title "doctor". mds and phds will both hate you.

>>9847064
That's just a silly story, but grades can be unfair. I got As in classes where I attended half of them and didn't even finish the exam or completely invented several of my answers, and low Bs/Cs in classes where I absolutely busted my ass and felt like I crushed the exam. I had two or three classes where the curve was actually negative, there were so many high grades that people got their scores lowered. People who work really hard (generally to the point of not having much of a life outside of studying) will excel of course, but there's an element of luck involved for everyone.

>>9848496
I don't know what I was smoking by believing him. Like it's obviously a fucking joke highlighting how capricious the grading is.

My buddy in law school said he's keeping up with the pack and has decent free time though. Goes to UW-Madion, not T14 though.

Starting law next month, anyone want to link me to some essential readings that aren't too long so I can acquire a flavour of what to expect?

>>9848516
I went to a big state school also, got decent grades overall, and still had a good amount of free time on my hands. I found work within a month of graduating but I had some family connections to help with that.

If you want to be tippy tippy top all 3 years you gotta give up a lot of your free time though. However, when you decide to not gun for the top you become more vulnerable to things like getting fucked over by a grading curve. One of the classes I took that had a negative curve took me from a low B to a C, which didn't totally fuck over my GPA but it was seriously shitty.

>>9848530
marbury v madison
tickle v barton
palsgraf v long island rr co
raffels v wichelhaus

>>9848588
lol dont read this if youre starting next month. read getting to maybe. the only thing that matters the first year is grades, which are based on how well you take the particular tests required in law school

>>9844072
No I chose to go to a school that cost $115k rather than where I got a full ride

>>9840955
Lol who and where?
Unless we are Spanish/South American?

>>9847336
What was your LSAT? GPA?

>>9849311
What was yours?

>>9849892
Are you a trust fund babby?

>>9850015
No I'm not even the original poster first off. Secondly, not sure what that has to do with me asking him his LSAT and GPA scores.

>>9847336
Tell us more?

>>9840487
Roberto Eros Grau, António Castanheira Neves, Mota Pinto, António Mendes, etc.
>>9841252
Digesta Vol. I, II and III by Castanheira Neves. He's basically Dworkin for grownups since he takes interpretativism to a whole new level. If you're into non-positive law he's currently the only viable school of thought.

O direito posto e o direito pressuposto by Roberto Eros Grau. He's basically developing Müller's theory of positive law vs. pre-positive law. He's constantly invited to go and teach in Germany.

Just to name a few.
>>9849256
>Americans butthurt about being irrelevant in Law.
I would to know what did Americans produced in Law besides Dworkin [dumbed down version of Alexy or of Habermas].

>>9840451
Or try 10 years and retire with your nice fixed income investment portfolio.
t. MBA fag

>>9850802
Is getting a masters in business analytics a meme or a good idea for grad?

>>9851009
Good idea if you're passionate about the field and get a good field.

People that bitch about being spreadsheet monkeys are just in it for the love of money; not finance.

>>9851029
*good school

If it's not t20, don't actually bother. It won't pay off.

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>>9850783
And people say Euro-centrism is an issue.

>>9851036
Thanks. I majored in history and Poli sci and sort of wish that Poli sci was biz. A buddy is getting a masters in biz analytics which is why I asked. Maybe I'll go for an MBA if law school isn't my thing.

I think it is, though. I love the law.

>>9838737
law is boring as shit, i don't know how people have patience to sut and read a bunch of laws

>>9839609
fucking kek

>>9851206
>non-argument
butthurt, kek

>>9852192
Nah just pointing out that person's South America obsession.

>>9838737
The General Theory of Law and Marxism by Paschukanis

>>9846142

But he's a creep and a goon.

>>9853546

lol hey china how're the docks today?

>>9853577
Which makes him /ourguy/.

>>9838737
Camus The Stranger :D

I live in a non-common law country (Denmark).
Is it worth going to law school?

>>9838737
The Code of Harrumbi

>>9854115
Yes

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>>9854115
>my country's laws are inscribed on some pieces of paper

>>9854115
No

>>9854115
The law system is irrelevant when making your choice. The only things that matter:

-The unemployment % of lawyers in Denmark
-The average salary of lawyers in Denmark

I have the grades for law, honestly I'm just going to drop it and get involved in tech.

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>>9855298
>He fell for the STEM meme.

>>9855401
computer science isn't part of the natural science meme or engineering cuck work.

>>9855298
Why not both and specialize in patent etc.

>tfw applied 6 times
>tfw dumb nigger and couldn't pass the test

i want to die.

>>9855433

There is still something inherently cuckish about being a lawyer to me.

I'd rather have my work speak for itself than trying to appease some jerk for a dollar. Programming and software development provides much more personal freedom too, it also motivates me to be a better writer for some reason. I could be talking out of my ass but I think it stimulates the creativity more so than trying to immerse oneself in the hackneyed drivel of old and dead jackasses.

The whole idea of civil law is kind of laughable too. Gravity and planetary motion are laws, not whether or not someone was driving 5 miles over on the highway.

>>9855411
Computer science = code jockey

I hope you like staring at a computer screen 50+ hours a week

>>9855456
>The whole idea of civil law is kind of laughable too. Gravity and planetary motion are laws, not whether or not someone was driving 5 miles over on the highway.

oh yes please avoid working in law at all costs

How much study do you guys recommend for the LSAT?

Is it doable to get 160+ studying now until early-mid September when the test is? I could do 3-4 hours per day easily.

>>9855465
>>9855481
This

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Lawyer here.

I'd recommend The Bramble Bush and some of Louis Brandeis's writings.

I'd also recommend not going to law school. Becoming a lawyer is the worst decision I have ever made.

>>9855635
I also want to hear more about studying plans and scores.

>>9856367
Why do lawyers recommend to not do law school?

>>9857196
Yeah this is really irritating.

Are you memeing like "LOL DONT GO XD" or do you mean "As expected, it's a LOT of work and you have little free time"
Because we're aware of that..

>>9857231
>wants to be a lawyer
>is irritated easily

>>9857196
Less competition for them.

It's retards like OP who oversaturate the market.

>>9857240
Kek. Nah it's just really discouraging

>>9857445 Bingo.

>>9857496
Knew it.

>>9857770
I'm someone whose going to apply for law school and am just agreeing with that guy.

But yeah that's totally it

>>9857785
Same here. GPA and LSAT scores? Where are you thinking of applying to?

>>9858117
My GPA is meh (3.2) and LSAT was a 152 but I am retaking it, this time I am going to study. My realistic goal is U of I with scholarships. You?

>>9858194
GPA is probably around 3.0-3.2 last I checked and 151 on the LSAT. Didn't studying as much as I should I have for my first LSAT either so hopefully I also improve significantly on my score. Hoping for someplace in the Midwest and decent scholarship support as well.

>>9858480
>>9858194

Torrent the practice tests and actually do timed practice. My scores went up significantly, but still didn't perform on the exam like I was at home. Stress is real and to do your best, you should learn to deal with it. The whole exam is skills-based. There is no reason you can't score 165+.

>>9858944
>165+
165 was what I was aiming for. I really appreciate the pick-me-up. Yeah I was going to get a bunch of powerscore books on how to take each test because lawschooli told me too. Is that a scam or do they work?

But yeah going to take tons of timed tests too. Forgot I can torrent them...

Thanks anonbud

>>9858944
>>9859452
Thank you both for the little bit of encouragement. Only thing that is a bit annoying about this one is the early morning start time. I was hoping for around a 160 so 165 is definitely something I could see myself getting with an actual plan of study. Think someone could drop a link to some pdfs of practice tests or something? Hopefully the thread is still up in the morning.

Law school is for tools.

>>9842089
Law is for fucking tools, that's why it's miserable. You won't even have a life, just an existence as a tool.

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>>9859770
>>9859774
>>9859774
t. either a brainlet who was rejected or one of those edgy fuck the system sort of losers.

>>9855456
Probably the dumbest post I've seen here.

>>9856352
>>9855465
When comparing this to law, the argument falls on its face

>>9859774
Law is to making fucking retards and plebeans behave. Unfortunatly we dont live in a world where majority of people act with ethics and good will in mind, so we need to make maxims and use the treath of violence to anyone who violates them.
I was a law student, and I hate law.
But I dont hate law because its law, I hate law because its dry and dont have any uses without force. I hate law because I wish this was a world where everyone had ethical behavior and good will in mind.
Sadly it dosent, them we need to use law for such, tho I dont enjoy it.

>>9838737
Oh yeah, op should try reading Hans Kelsen most famous book: Teoria Pura do Direito.
The name is in portuguese, I dont fucking know who to write it in english. But just search for Kelsen, I am sure you will find it.

>>9860605
Agreed.

>>9857445
>>9857231
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE

>>9860993
Who made you such a jaded asshole?

>>9857196
it's not just lawyers, pretty much every profession will tell you the same in my experience. i'd imagine doing pretty much anything 40+ hours a week eventually starts to suck but you gotta to do something

>>9861065
I hang out with a lot of doctors. The ones who truly hate themselves are female obstetrics physicians. They got into the profession because BABIES! Baby Doctor! CUTTTE! And then they find out it really entails dead babies, overnight call over and over, shitty nurses, understaffing, and half a million insurance bills.

People who want to go to lawschool for anything other than massive paper shuffling are the exact same way, unless they are getting T-14 with very little debt.

>>9859824
Perhaps....a loser type of geek?

>>9861297
Seems to be the case.

>>9861077
I'm sick and tired of this T-14 or nothing meme.

>>9842913
>jewish fiction
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Germanic_law

>>9862159
its true as fuck
you're either T14, or going for broke with firms in your midmarket region.

>>9862513
It isn't really "true as fuck" though.

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Just applied for an Indian visa. Any poo recs?

>>9862661
DESIGNATED

>>9862614
check the employment stats rofl

>>9862990
Stay bitter rofl

>>9862513
Retarded, wrong, and retarded again.

I went to a horrible state school in Indiana that nobody has ever heard of, did very well, and now work in Manhattan at a mid-sized firm making six figures, working reasonable hours, and deeply enjoying my life choices.

The only people who say this are either (a) retarded; or (b) got duped into dropping six figures on an unimpressive degree and are now slaves to biglaw, wasting their lives doing doc review in a closet so they can pay off their mountainous debt.

Don't mislead people just because you fucked up.

>>9863152
Valparaiso University School of Law? It isn't a state school but it's the only Law school in the state that is really shitty.

But yeah most of the people shitting here about elite schools have probably fallen somewhere along in their lives.

>>9859452
165 and a 3.5 from a good undergrad college got me: rejection from all T14s; acceptance to all non T14s; somewhere between zero scholarship money and slightly over half-off for schools in the 15-50 range; full rides at all schools below 50s. I'm white.

>>9863152
Making mid six figures in Manhattan and working reasonable hours?

You're a fucking liar, anon. You don't generate that kind of income working reasonable hours.

>>9863263
This, unless daddy owns a dog bite law shop in queens.

>>9863251
Do a full ride man, even if it's sub-fifty.

Understand that the T14 mantra is a myth perpetuated by (1) miserable T14 students; and (2) a shady agreement between global firms and those schools.

A debt free JD is a no-brainer, unless you are okay with 3-5 years of 80-90 hour weeks in your twenties and thirties.

>>9863251

If there is a school offering you a full-ride in an area you'd like to practice you need to jump on that opportunity.

>>9863263
Low six figures, but I get a bonus at 1800 hours.

But sure, believe what you want. I will go in at 9:30 tomorrow, bill 7 ish hours, and go home at 6:30.

I have several friends at mid sized firms who have the exact same situation as me.

I'm honestly perplexed by this belief that the ONLY way to succeed in law is T14 + Biglaw. It's retarded.

Let me just add that an alumni from my school, now four years out, is a staff Attorney at a city agency making $110k a year. She works from 9-5 or 9-6, and maybe a little on the weekend if she's got a brief due or something.

Stop reading TLS trash and poorly-written Above The Law blog posts and ask the people who are actually doing it, instead of spreading fear and misinformation everywhere.

>>9863270
Ignore this faggot, who even if he was telling the truth, should be dismissed in favor of NALP stats

>>9863294
Yeah, man. Fuck that guy.

Debt is a badge of honor.

>>9863288
A bonus at 1800 hours in Manhattan?

No. It doesn't work that way. In Manhattan you're working a minimum of 2100 billable hours/year for a low six-figure salary. You're a liar. Just fo.

>>9863278
This.

>>9863288
Which is worse in your opinion, TLS or JD Underground?

>>9863340
I haven't read JD Underground. Sounds horrible though.

TLS can be helpful, but it's usually just (alleged) T14 kids humblebragging, fearmongering, and complaining.

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>>9863321
I'm unsure where you're getting this information and donno what to say other than you're incorrect.

>>9863381
whatev

the numbers are not hard to find for anyone who's interested.

you want to bill 1800 hours a year? not in manhattan, friendo.

>>9841699
Did you go to Harvard Law?

I'm an undergrad at the college and really want to meet Unger -- I've read his book Free Trade Reimagined, and am currently 50 pages into The Critical Legal Studies Movement. I also really enjoyed his YouTube series on overcoming nihilism. He reminds me of a liberal Harvey Mansfield oddly enough

>>9841557
OP this is it right here.

>>9863431
Not sure if you are the same Harvard undergrad from the Kissinger thread but Unger sounds like he would be an amazing person to meet.

>>9838737
The fall by camus

>>9863431
What makes him remind you of a liberal Harvey Mansfield?

>>9843450
Kek

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Is this cause you were all philosophy majors

>>9863152
>>9863288
so you're not making market? nice.
if you go to a T14 you're pretty much guaranteed to start at 180k, unless you fuck up horribly. did you even start in manhattan? or did you have to lateral? what are your exit options?

don't fly so close to the sun

>>9863288
I don't want anything more than a low 6 figure. Thanks for sharing.

>All these butthurt T14 shills

>>9864226
>He needs 180k
>He wants anything more than 125k a year
Literally anything higher is unnecessary and for power. Not worth it unless you want to be American Psycho-tier soulless or are the kind of person who has to always be working, in which case fair enough.

>>9838737
How come no one's mentioned John Grisham?
NAL but I got my legal edumacation from his books and the movies based thereon.

>>9854704
In my country I can be sentenced because some idiots before did something that someone considered similar and nobody really knows what will happen in court. Yeehaaw USA USA!

If you're making 125k, know that they WILL be taking it out of your hide in billable hours. They're not running a charity. You will have to bill a bare minimum of 2100 hours/year. This is the rule of thumb in NYC, DC, San Fran, and basically any litigation shop that's paying you 125k.

What does that work out to? 40 billable hours, 52 weeks per year.

And what does *that* work out to? ~12 hour days, because you can't just walk in at 9am and start billing. You can't bill when you're at lunch or in a meeting, etc. As a practical matter, you'll likely have to bill hours routinely on the weekend to meet that 2100 hour minimum.

Know what you're getting into. It is *not* an easy gig. You get to wear nice clothes and live in a nice apartment, but the old saying applies: the law is a jealous mistress. What does that mean? A jealous mistress wants all your time. The law wants all your time. And it takes all your time. There are a lot of unhappy lawyers for just this reason.

You may be much happier if you go to a smaller and correspondingly slower market, where you can get by billing 1800 hours -- which itself, I might add, is not a walk in the park.

Or get a nice government gig. If you are white and male, be sure to have top grades if you want to get one of those government gigs -- forget about working in DC unless those top grades are from top schools, unless you're **very** lucky.

Just did a practice LSAT after registering. Got raped basically; scored like mid 140s. I can see a lot of improvement soon though since I have already started to get the hand of it.

I downloaded a logic textbook and a bunch of LSAT prep stuff from b-ok.org to study roughly 3-4 hours per day until September. Need at least 150 but aiming for mid 160s and above.

>>9864463
good luck and no offense but i cant believe these are the people i share this board with

protip: logic games is the easiest to improve; reading comprehension is the hardest

>>9839923
this post best post.

t. just took the bar exam

>>9864508
Yeah; but I think my poor score was a mix of me doing it late at 1am, not 100% alert and clearly thinking.

If this thread is up later, i'll post my score in another practice run.

>>9861014
>who
>he still doesn't understand the actual extent to which the world is a dystopia

I urge everyone here to read about the lifestyle of lawyers and carefully consider whether it is a life you want to pursue. There is a reason the unhappy divorced lawyer trope exists. They're not all like that, but many of them are. My best friends father is counsel for a big company in my city and guess what? His wife left him for another man a few years ago. As far as I can tell he was a good man and a loving father, he was just hardly ever around for his kids/wife because work takes so long. When I'm at my friend's house I don't see him there until after 7pm at the earliest every day, and he works Saturdays too.

When I got a DUI I had to get a criminal lawyer. He told me that if I needed something the best time to call him was Sunday starting at 5:00 in he morning, because that was when he got all his work done--he was too busy with court stuff every other day.

Perhaps the only lawyer gigs out there that offer a better work life balance are government gigs.

I went to my cousins wedding and there I met a super wealthy fat cat lawyer who had "made it"--he was a partner at a big Houston law firm. He was a major alumni donor to my cousin's SEC school and flew in for games and what not. I imagine he was pretty powerful. But I also learned he had no wife or children--I wonder why? I know not everyone wants wife and children, but what would it be like to wake up at 55 and realize that you wanted them all along but just didn't have the time?

Just think carefully if an upper middle class lifestyle is worth all of those hours, all of that stress, all those potentially broken relationships.

>>9841557
Let me add, why are good law school grades considered a reliable indicator for potential law firm employers?

Because to get good grades at law school you have to be able to synthesize a great quantity of information, and then apply this body of knowledge analytically to a new, complicated fact pattern in a high-pressure three-hour law school exam.

To do that successfully, you either have to be naturally brilliant (e.g., Turow's classmate in One L whose study consisted entirely of thinking about his courses while taking a shower), or very smart and very disciplined.

This is what the practice of law at large law firms mainly consists of: synthesizing large a large body of information (the case you're working on), and then learning and applying some rule or rules of law to that information and reaching a sound conclusion.

The more efficient your mind is, the higher grades you will get in law school. Same applies to the LSAT.

The more efficient your mind is, the more successful you'll be in typical large firm legal practice, which is all about the billable hours (see >>9864455).

Discipline also plays a role in this, as does endurance (both of which are addressed either directly or indirectly in One L).

The reason why you want to avoid student debt - entirely if possible, or as much as you can if you can't avoid it entirely - is that it's possible that you may find out you don't enjoy the practice of law once you become a lawyer. Many lawyers are unhappy, many are burnt-out.

But student debt last forever.

You can walk away from a mortgage by walking away from the house (more or less, and with some exceptions). You can default on almost every kind of loan, and discharge the debt in bankruptcy.

But you can't walk away from student loans, and it's virtually impossible to discharge the debt in bankruptcy. Those loans will likely follow you to your grave, unless you pay them off.

So if you have a choice between a half-ride a mid-tier school, that's in a location where you wouldn't mind working (and the school has a solid job placement record), vs. acceptance but no scholarship at a sexy top 20 or top 10 school -- think very seriously before choosing that top 10 school, and all the student loan debt that will likely accrue to that choice.

And if you want good grades, and need to do more than think about your classes when you're in the shower, do the outlining regimen described here >>9841557. That investment of time will pay immense dividends in terms of the job (or clerking) options that you'll have when you graduate with top grades. That ability to be self-disciplined will also serve you well in the real world of legal practice.

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>>9864554
This.

I am 28 and I'm getting out now. Eating my losses. The misery in this profession is unparalleled.

I've cancelled so many dates with women I was very interested in. Still single, no prospects in sight. I'm handsome enough and well off, but it doesn't matter. Nobody wants to be thrust on the back burner from the start.

I haven't seen my parents in months. Sleep 5 hours a night if that. Graying horribly. It's in my eyebrows now. I've read 10 books this year at best. Forget about writing. If you become a lawyer, forget about hobbies, creative pursuits, etc. The longing will kill you. I definitely have cancer.

Not to mention the work is boring. The subject matter may be fascinating, but what they don't tell you in law school is that subject matter is irrelevant. It's all busy work – pleadings, discovery, procedural paper pushing.

I should be billing right now. I've lost time on this post. I wouldn't be leaving this comment if i wasn't so despondent.

>>9864371
>Not worth it unless you want to be American Psycho-tier soulless or are the kind of person who has to always be working

But this describes probably 2/3 or more of people who go to law school, so it shouldn't really be a surprise that 120k isn't enough for your average law student when there are people making 140k.

>>9864463
>>9864508
>>9864519

I strongly recommend Jeff Kolby, Master the LSAT to anyone preparing to take the LSAT.

Kolby shows you a method for diagramming logic games that is easy and works.

He has some good tips on the other stuff, but the diagramming method he has is brilliant and relatively easy to learn and apply.

>>9864598
Just wanted to comment that you do find time to post here.

I'm a doctor although not in the U.S.
I'm not a surgeon. I still have 5 night shifts a month and feel the situation that I have money and prestige but no cool of mind or free time to use it. Considering becoming a teacher, that seems to have great work-life balance.

>>9864598
Sorry to hear that, man. I hope you find a way out to a happier and simpler life.

>>9864633
Are you in the UK? Teachers still work 50+ hours a week (source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-27087942). But hey at least you get terrible pay and zero respect from society.

>>9864773
No from Austria, here they get 9 weeks free in summer and then there are Easter and Christmas holidays and whathaveyounot. The pay is mediocre but when I remember my schooldays the job is easy as fuck and entails a lot of doing nothing even while you work. Talking about high school teaching.

>>9864519
Do another practice test yet? What was your score on it?

>>9864620
Yeah but I wonder how this picture compares to the /lit/law people.

-currently a legal assistant artist in nyc at this semi big growing firm
-bullshit diy artist at night
-been doing so for about a 1.7 years
-do all the works really
-assist/prep/accompany trials
-was thinking about law school.

fuck that life

>>9866891
Im in nyc attorney at a firm of similar size. It's miserable. I just haven't quit because I'm scared I won't find another job and then won't be able to afford rent

>Infinite Jest

>>9867069
>>9867069
Thanks

>>9867050
how have you been thus deceived? move somewhere else! what good is it to live in manhattan if thou must slave away for the advantage of thy jewish landlord?

>>9867050
This goes for anyone but it seems a common denominator facing a lot of those struggling is that they all live in States and Cities with high costs of living., ones where their money does not go very far.

My diary OP.

OP here. I have read a few chapters of a logic philosophy textbook I downloaded, while learning how to map out the logic games in the LSAT with a McGraw Hill Curvebreakers book I found. My scores have already improved a lot. The first practice I did I think I was just way too tired to focus properly; its fucking hard though.

>>9845960
>>9845977
Can I get some sources? I love these type of Obama conspiracies. I always knew about this story but forgot about it up until now.

>>9871732
Congrats OP. Where did your score start out and what sort of improvement have you seen?

>>9872205
High 140s. Bad, in other words.

Learning how to map the logic games is giving me a massive boost in my score. I haven't done another full practice yet; I have been practicing the logic game techniques I haven't learned to commit them to memory. Reading comprehension was already quite strong so I haven't bothered practicing reading sets yet.

>>9872296
Good luck with that and hopefully the thread will be up later so you can share with us any score improvements.

I guess I am in a similar boat and the logic games seem to be a common denominator in lower scores on here.

Law is a joke.

Ones innocent and guilt can be proven with lie detector in a matter of seconds.
Anyone who still defends jurisdiction system is a delusional retarded succumbed in mental gymnastics.

What a waste of time on an outdated dogma.

>>9872457
If this is good b8 then congratulations. If not then you are just sad.

>>9867069
Justice Scalia was a huge DFW fan. Not kidding. Google the interview.

Additionally, a former law clerk of Justice Kennedy claims the justice was a big fan too.