I'm a cishet white dude seeking an introduction to intersectional

You'll get your (You)s don't worry, and if you are serious - which you aren't - be aware of what will come

>>9777633
start with bell hooks

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Jose Vasconcelos' esoteric nationalism via new age tumblr intersectional dykes

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>>9777649
this. I used to be a 4chan reactionary dudebro, but I actually moved on. I went to college and got an intersectional feminist gf. It has been a great growth experience, I have discovered Empathy and learned a lot from marginalised folks

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>>9777683

>not being a hormonal mess means you're "emotionally crippled"

fuck feminism.
women are all right tho.

>>9777683
do you suckle for the bull's milk?

>>9777752
>>9777722
t. emotionally mature men who are definitely not pissbabbies and have definitely talked to women

>>9777790
not an argument

>>9777683
lol, if you are actually a man don't follow this shit. go read this post >>9777782 in another thread if you want to know why (even though if you don't get this intuitively you are probably already lost).

i am not saying it's not ok for some individual men to be feminine if they want to follow that advice, but it's not a good for men as a group or for humanity as a whole. so no, most men don't need feminism. some may need it as a last resort if their only alternative is to kill themselves. choose wisely.

>>9777633
does intersectional feminism mean anything complex? i thought it just means that your life may suck for more than 1 reason. is there more meat to the concept or is that all?

>tfw used to be a reactionary but moved on, now hate the white race and support feminism 100%
inb4 butthurt /pol/tards try to refute this

>>9777813
pfft that post is right about its criticism about reddit but seem to think /lit/ is somehow better without actually proving it.

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>>9777819
Intersectionality is a concept that emerged from Black Feminist Thought. The experience of black women cannot by reduced to the sum of the woman experience and the black experience, when black woman experience gendered oppression this oppression is racialized. It's all about searching for the root causes of injustice and unfairness in our society. how does dominant society shape one's ideas and limit people? Why shouldn't women be in positions of power? why shouldn't men be allowed to wear dresses? All in all, it is a really interesting subject, but /lit/ unfairly dismisses it.

>>9777873
>pro choice panel
>hearts
kek

>>9777873
>anti-racist
>mudslime

>implying you can be racist towards a religion

>>9777896
>being willfully ignorant regarding the nature of supremacy and racialisation.

>>9777633
>>9777873
Why has the hijab become a feminist symbol?

>>9777873
i don't know, i can understand feminism where women want to be dudes, but i don't get this kind of feminism where they basically want to remove all structures and without structures all the multiplicity of identities would flourish. but at the same time the goodies that are produced by the current structures would still be kept, how? is this second step that i don't get.

like this kind of theories and feminism is only able to flourish in a very specific context, of ulta-capitalist and wealthy countries, with very sheltered colleges/organizations that are given a lot of freedoms and very little responsibility.

seems very bourgeois to me, and i don't see how that multiplicity won't be devoured as soon as there's some pressure for results and an ideology with a clear path is put forward that swipes away all the other fragile identities.

>>9777873
>why can't we have breakfast for dinner?
>why do I need shoes and a shirt to get service?

>>9777873

It's not about searching for the root cause of injustice in society it's about cramming society into your limited ideas of class warfare and power dynamics to justify your inherent resentment. Concepts such as merit don't really exist in this epistemology, being only considered as a tool to legitimize the privileged.

Being black in USA is one of the most privileged positions to be in, not only materially, but due to globalism also culturally (you have access to influencing millions with your ideas, does that mean according to your own epistemology that you are actually the dominant class when taken to a global scale? If so, shut the fuck up, you retarded, mouthbreathing, nigger is not racist.)

Any sort of system of knowledge that lays the ills of the world on broad overarching concepts such as "culture" ore "history" is suspect, since the way you can extrapolate narratives from these subjects is incredibly vast.

>inb4 baited

>>9777873
I like how everything can be discussed on 4chan, except some of it can't. I think the concept of intersectionality is useful, as far as I understood it, though the bitter truth is that I am not fat positive, not in favour of body modification and honestly I am a classist.

I think however that instead of being fat negative we should be negative of certain food habits, as there are plenty of people who eat bad without getting fat by it.

I am not trans inclusive in the sense that I think that body modification is wrong. That applies to hormone treatment and plastic surgery. I cannot give a good rationalization for it, but I feel as if it is cheating. For people who do not feel they are their biological sex I think the concept of a two spirit as practised by Indians is more progressive.

My class hatred is directed to the middle class and new money. I hold a rather reactionary view in which I think the equalisation in some forms was bad. I have to interact with people with who have no aspirations at all "to live the good life" to use a lame phrase. When I say I loathe new money it is more so that I'm repulsed by the wasteful lifestyle which isn't even restricted to new money by the way, even old money has people like that, and so do other classes.

With these kind of ideas I am not welcome in any political communiy so I'm sort of glad we can have this discussion.

>>9777947
imo intersectionality doesn't go far enough in its attacks on the ideology of meritocracy, ultimately reinforcing the reigning order of things. Intersectionalists are fixated on a liberal notion of 'fairness', their goal is a 'fair' society in which all people have access to 'equal opportunities'. However, they never really critique the form of the society itself: they complain about the 'unfairness' of the game but yet insist we keep playing it. 'social progress' is institutionalized and made synonymous with individual advancement within the corporate ladder, media and academia. That's what Deleuze meant when he talked about the society of control. Identity is now something to be managed and micromanaged, the objective is not liberation but management. Conservatives misunderstand the nature of modern capitalism, the time of rugged self made entrepreneurs is past and definitely not coming back. The management of social capital is the key to post industrial capitalism.

>>9777931
I think its very class based as well. Either your country has the structures, economy, and education to implement these ideas or your country doesn't. There are no completely blank societies where you can implement feminist ideals from the ground up but instead it must always be implemented from the wealthy elite down through society. Feminism certainly isn't a unified movement as there are many fractured ideologies which battle, support, and dismiss each other. However, mainstream feminism is certainly a class based movement and unless communist-like vanguard proletariat feminism catches on to the popular movement then it will remain a bourgeois movement.

It's profoundly unhealthy for the individual and society for women and their allies to spread the lie that there is anything more fulfilling for a woman than being subservient to a man and staying home to raise his children. Nothing will ever change this basic sociobiological fact.

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it is worth thinking about but many modern feminist ideas amount to little more than victim olympics and social anarchy.
this is only sustainable as long as the west remains the capital of the world. How long does it last before our structures collapse?

>>9778089
>'social progress' is institutionalized and made synonymous with individual advancement within the corporate ladder, media and academia.
I think that's insightful.
So can you explain what in your view would be social progress? A restructure of society itself I'm assuming? It might be stupid questions but I want some discussion.

>>9778150
>brown woman will become part of the system
oh no

>>9778089
>>9778100
>>9778149
>>9778150
i think part of the problem is that there's a huge part of the population that has never built anything with their hands, or created anything real.

they have lived for too long on the information economy and believe that ideas can be conjured from thin air from their perspective, without acknowledging the whole lot of work and suffering that there's behind everything we give from granted. from that phenomenological point of view it's very easy to decide that you can tear down all the structures that form our society because they are oppressive and at the same time keep the fruits of the society because you have never experienced the manual work that there's behind anything as simple as a manufactured table, a piece of food, or even something "abstract" like a functional nuclear family.

>asking a site that's vehemently misogynistic about feminism
Okay.

On the very slim chance you're being sincere:
Andrea Dworkin (though she's more radical than many of the most leftist contemporary feminists) and Bell Hooks are very good starts.

>>9778215
>On the very slim chance you're being sincere
I don't think OP is,
But I am interested but I need to ask: do they argue in clear language?
I cannot bother with the kind of language that is used by certain continental philosophy, I don't have the time for it

>>9778215
>Andrea Dworkin
any books? a google search brings up mostly shitty drama around her life

>Bell Hooks
same with this one, i only get articles about some drama between her and beyoncé

>>9778089
I think most modern feminism argues equality with marxists methods but on the basis of Enlightment ideals.

As long as you can't extrapolate social needs out of human beings there is no liberation outside of a system based on social capital.
The ideal of the self made entrepreneur seems alive and well since the management of social capital seems to be a skill in itself on which you can base a concept of "meritocracy".

>>9778215
Yes, I'll second reading Dworkin to get to the root ideology of contemporary feminism. No one better illustrates how anti-human and anti-woman this strain of thought is. If her vision of women's liberation were to come to fruition, it would be a reign of totalitarian horror ending in the extinction of the race.

>>9777633

>cishet

kys

reminder that this video from The Onion exists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpzVc7s-_e8

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>>9777633
by castrating yourself

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>>9777683
>That quote

Unless you're reading this to learn your opponents strategy, you have to be a serious masochist to read this shit. The tragic failure of these texts is that they're written by women -- so prepare for huge fucking tedium and boredom. They do not care about the read at all they're basically information and exposition dumps written by a highly ideological robot

>>9778388
>>9778388
I don't know anon, what you said sounds like an exposition dump written by a highly ideological robot as well.

>>9778402
Because you're angry

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>>9778150
The average feminist, not feminist author, but just supporter of the concept believes basically:
a. women have been historically oppressed
b. there is no longer a reasonable justification for many of the traditional roles for women since the industrialization of the west
c. women should now no longer have the same identity of caretaker / homemaker and are equally competent members of the workforce so
d. should get paid more money (wage gap meme)

Intersectionality steams from (a) as it's apparent that women were not the only oppressed group, but how much the average person cares about marxist inspired revolution with a IdPol flavor is very small and basically just results in them voting in favor of affirmative action and then giving up on the issue

>>9778402
Exactly, so unless you want to read an entire book like that, don't bother.

>>9778402
Yes, but that's barely a paragraph. Can you imagine idiots reading entire volumes of "feminist" nonsense? It's nothing but the subversive venom of women who lost in the mating game pissing in the pool of the genetically desirable.

>>9777633
what's the endgoal of this pic? what does inclusion mean? is that developed somewhere?

>>9778411
Great idea! Let's double the labor pool and then raise wages for the least productive workers!

I was a woman once

>>9777790

>emotionally mature

What the fuck does this even mean?

>>9778442
i don't know, but now that you mention it, it's a typical tactic that intersectional intergalactic communists to attack the masculinity of their critics, which is kind of funny, because the implication is that men should be tougher than that and don't be intimidated by women's silly games

>>9778433
If your issue is that the avg. woman chooses professions that are less productive than that of the avg. man, consider women in STEM and the trades your allies
You'll find little success in forcing half the population back out of the workforce to raise children that don't exist and nobody wants

>>9777649
>>9777683
>>9778215
Does hooks actually offer anything interesting? Everything I've seen from her is pretty bland.

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>>9778436
I was a human once
But things changed
I'm no longer human

>>9778171
>So can you explain what in your view would be social progress?

An end to the dictatorship of the political economy, of which the economy of social capital is only an outgrow. The singleminded focus on individualistic 'success' within the established structures of the market provides with a very narrow vision of what human life can be.

It's worth noting that the new wave of social liberalism started in the Obama era, after the mortgage crisis dashed the black middle class' hopes for economic advancement. progress moved on to the realm of the spectacle. Intersectionalism merged with middle class ideology and became just another way to enforce middle class mores. ie. You should eat your vegetables because children in Africa are starving. An useful tool for keeping downwardly mobile middle class whites in line. Or perhaps not so useful. Who knows what's next?

Pop Psych mindfuckery is an american tradition with a long and storied past. Schools and corporations use tools derived from ESALEN and Werner Erhardt to fuck with you constantly. Wonder where that emphasis on and ritualised displays of 'authentic' emotion comes from?

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>>9778455
>intersectional intergalactic communists

>>9777633
genealogy of morals

>>9778456
>raise children that don't exist and nobody wants
>nobody wants
>import people from traditional cultures instead of having babbies
sounds like a wonderful solution, except when you fail to inculcate your intersectional ideology to the newly imported humans that now compose our society so we get a nice, functional traditional society instead of the self-destructive status quo. everybody wins.

>>9778442
I'm married with children. Deprogramming my wife of her liberal feminist indoctrination was one of the greatest challenges of my life, and now she's never felt more fulfilled than living her role as a loving, nurturing mother and sexually submissive wife.

Most of her friends are childless and past the point of viably having children. Seeing them go through this realization has been both educational and rewarding. They are miserable, plagued by addictions and/or mental illnesses, a few are outright suicidal. I seriously believe the female mind and body are programmed to self destruct if they pass childbearing age without producing offspring. I just need to do the research.

>>9778476
>narrow vision of what human life can be

riiiiiiiight, and what is the full picture?
even under communist rule, social capital is gained by the fervent adherence to the party's ideology. you can't escape self interest.

>>9778517
yep, even anarchistic open assemblies are basically the tyranny of the charismatic and extroverted.

even that is being optimistic and expecting it to be so transparent and open, more probably it would be the tyranny of those that play manipulative social games on the shadows.

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>>9778517
>riiiiiiiight, and what is the full picture?

building a phalanstery, dedicating oneself to the construction of situations, bringing harmony to the universe, resuscitating the dead... etc. etc.

>>9778488

Has a liberal ever addressed this problem? I've always wondered.

>>9778388
Almost all political works are like that

>>9778489
pics or it didn't happened

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>>9777633
>cishet
why

>where should I start
Harriet Beecher Stowe

>>9777683
what the fuck does intersectional mean. it sounds like furniture. please don't tell me this is the hot new way of saying 'diverse' because 1. that never made sense and 2. you are too SJW-bullied to say black/white/asian/latino/whatever.


I'm not a /pol/ person, or alt-right, or wp. I'm an old liberal Democrat. And you people are losing your goddamn minds.

>>9778537
no, because all these progressive ideologies are the most western-centric currents of thought ever created, which is quite ironic.

they know how to hide it, but as soon as you scratch the surface it becomes clear that they place western white men as the true universal subjects with agency. in this worldview minorities have no agency, and thus no guilt nor responsibility. they just form part of the blob of their groups, while western white men have to take responsibility and address the issue.

which i can understand why they do it strategically, the problem will be if at some point western white men are actually dethroned, if the group that takes over afterwards can be manipulated in the same way. at this point it seems that group could be islamic men, and everything indicates that they will not be manipulated by those tools.

i'm not /pol/ and i don't think this will actually happen. but if this progressive ideology were to run its course that seems to me to only logical conclusion. once you remove the group the personifies all the guild that fuels your ideology you are left with a vacuum and nothing else.

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>>9778562
>what the fuck does intersectional mean
okay so i looked it up. it literally means systems of oppression, which is what i assumed. people using it as a first term for self-identification is fucking retarded. if i wasn't /pol/-tier before i'll be there in a few years at this rate.

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>intersectionality
>not superior european roundabouts

>>9778627
aesthetic, but looks like a nightmare to drive

>>9778426
they want your job and they want your penis (severed and wrapped with a nice bow)

>>9778638
it's not so bad after your first few times around

basically like rape

>>9778488
>>9778581

Hispanic/Chicano/Latin(x) already consider themselves white but mixed with the indigenous americans, and follow a mixture of Catholic and Marxist ideas, not very different from the average modern american w/ northern European heritage (aside from latin americans actually having some historic claim to the land)
There's little risk of America being dethroned by a islamic group, and the 'reconquistas' assimilate well (seeing as their states are already republics with similar history to the US, but spanish rather than anglo)

Good luck in Europe though, hope you guys stop world warring yourself

>>9778536
that sounds gay af

also all the things you mention, for them to exist, you need a system a values in which people advance in accordance to the fulfillment of that paradise. once such a system is established people will start selecting mates based on that system (you also need new generations to perpetuate that system). once mate competition starts individuality is sure to appear.

you can't escape human nature, dingus. we are governed by external forces and all the naive empathy and intense rationalization of human labour is not really worth that much compared to the reason why we do things.

>>9778590
Welcome the rising fire

>>9778537
latin americans assimilate relatively well to US culture as they share most of their cultural heritage with it and self interested persuits of success do the rest (which is why their family came here in the first place)
At the end of the day you just have a browner group of people calling themselves liberals and pushing the same ideas, which is fine by us, I get a qt chicano gf

if you're importing a working class it's on the foundation of the promise of a better future for their children, and the cycle is able to perpetuate itself through generally shared values and definition of what a 'good future' might look like

europe is more fucked but that's your fault for choosing a starting area without two major oceans and any natural oil

>>9778680
>>9778753

Okay, let's pretend that Mexicans are just a type of brown American and that they're going to assimilate. What happens when their birthrates fall? You'll have to import even more third world immigrants.

Like what happens when Maria decides to get her master's degree instead of having eight of Pedro's kids?

>>9778990
not him but: the cycle repeats. there is always a need for an underclass. witness the previous waves of immigrants in america. our future is uncertain however because robots/AI.

>>9779098
Can't wait till Mexicans assimilate enough to start the next wave of the cycle. Then they'll be true Americans.

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>interested in reading bell hooks
>"White supremacist capitalist patriarchy"

>intersectional
implying not being a woman means you need a prefix to make you a feminist
>cishet white male
Stop with the identity politics
This is why, despite being a hardcore liberal, I hate the left

>>9777683
Oh please. Masculinity doesn't mean "no emotions". What a pitifully inept view of it.

It seems to me like the concept of "intersectionality" has been totally weaponized by minority activists so that they can co-opt the larger umbrella of feminism to push for particularist racial shit. Just attach yourself to any kind of leftist activist movement, start spouting shit about race nonstop and when someone says you're off topic pull the "intersectionality" card.

>>9779687
Yeah good post. What a crock of bullshit.

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I wish the truly lost people that spout this deconstructionist nonsense would stop and think.

They have no end goal.

You've replaced all the straight white males. Great. Now you have the same issues of preferential hiding etc, just in reverse.

What is the end goal of the six-billion-genders-died-intersectional-queer-black-muslim crowd?

What would their society look like?

>>9779714
It's the indulgence of straight white men that allow this to proliferate. Obviously in any sort of struggle, white men will win against other groups if they are trying. Instead many white men voluntarily subject themselves to degradation.

>>9779714
What even is the issue?

In a Turkish society in the Ottoman empire, you're the most privileged person if you're a Turkish Ottoman because you're the fucking majority.

It's basic history and basic social economics. What is the deal?

Should we treat the minority with respect? Duh. Should we be as heroic as we can? Absolutely.

>>9779734
Not to mention Im not against helping out minorities in shitty situations (blacks in urban situations) but you have to attack the root of the problem. This is not the answer...

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>>9777633
if you're serious anon im sorry because you are not going to get what you're looking for (obvious at this point). Id certainly be interested in any hypothetical recs. do some diving around in goodreads, thats how I got started on a lot of good literature about colonialist impacts and environmentalism (fiction and nonfiction)

>>9779748
We need to decolonize science.

>>9778680
>Hispanic/Chicano/Latin(x) already consider themselves white but mixed with the indigenous americans,
even if it's not islam that takes over with latinos it's still the same result but less extreme.

you will basically get white dudes that carry none of the white guilt, so you won't be able to manipulate them into pander to minorities or women and will get a nice, functioning traditional society that forgets about all intersectional bullshit and treats minorities like shit.

>>9779714
Deconstruction doesn't have an end goal because it's a process inherent to the text.

>>9779164
>>9779098
>>9778990
i'd say that for the current ideology to work you need white guilt. latinos have no white guilt so intersectional ideology will crumble as soon as whitey is not the majority.

when latinos start voting their true ideas instead of their short term interests the left will probably have to change a lot and become more traditional or die.

>>9780388
That's fine though, perpetuating liberalism, not intersectionalism, was what we were speaking about
You'll always have an underclass though, in this case it'll be native identifying women allied with traditional economically motivated marxists against business minded liberal Latino Americans

>>9777633
ah, monsieur, you are interested in feminism, monsieur "intersectional feminism" monsieur.

we will have to sit down for this one, please, i beg you, ungirdle yourself and remove your penis, for i cannot talk to you man to man on this question, but we must speak as eunuchs, and, of course Jews, for George Soros, the author of the Elders of the protocols of Zion, created the Hebraic original of intersectional before Peggy McIntosh had learnt not to shave the hair under her armpits in order to virtue signal on college campuses to severely ambitious, ideologically and intellectualy serious, middle class cunts. now, don't get me wrong, monsieur. i am as identitarian as the next homose - as the next man, monsieur, i mean, the next eunuch, monsieur, for to even discuss this, my penis has instinctively conditioned itself through necrosis and mortification, to become a vagina, so that i may express, monsieur, my identity, to you - to all of you - now, monsieur and mes gays, that i am now - pray tell friend - trans + shift key + the star thing. now, you understand my homosexuality puts me at such a place of oppression on the Hierarchy of the great chain of slave morality, that i may now begin to speak to you unreservedly, seriously, one Gay Unto Another, who does not believe Race Is Real. now, all of this, then, by way of preface, let us - let us fall to, like men in arms, like neo-homosexual yellow journalists, buzzfeed entrepreneur acephobic queersexual aliens.

to truly understand any stand of feminism, even the strand which sits, like a Phallic Signifier, at the core of Really Existing Online SJW and Call Out Culture, one has to go, like Bentley, monsieur, like Wilamowitz, monsieur, yes, like all the great classical philologists, to the pierian fount. what is that, monsieur? what is the source? why, monsieur, the answer is simple. not a myriad of blue stockings in the nineteenth century, their confluence with working class women and their own contingents, unions, halls, RABBLES - i mean, excuse me, monsieur, their circles - no. there is no material history here, monsieur, no grand chain of influence and dysfluence, of Bloomian anxiety, rather, there is a single source, invisible, demonic, and deeply at odds with racial science: a lonely figure in european history, a people who one may mythologically figure as a kind of parasite, a creature that lives off the crumbs of others, worshipping defiantly the old religion and its monolithic god-protector. you know exactly who i mean, monsieur, and i don't need to say any more. i have said enough, monsieur. you all know - you all KNOW - of what, of whom, of that. but, enough, monsieur. you may gain a sufficient knowledge of the "surface" expression of this figure, whom i may not name, through its Hydra-like expression in social degenerates who call themselves intersectional feminists, whose one goal, monsieur, is of course the destruction of western civilisation, defended heroically by gamers.

>>9780774
tl;dr

>>9778638
it's super easy

>>9777633
Start with cutting your dick off and becoming a transwymyn.

>>9780845
>dilation, look it up
since i found out about it, it makes me feel bad about all post op trannies and i hope they would have just kept their penises and dressed like girls :(

>>9777683
Men dull their emotional instincts because society itself is incompatible with a man's inherent need to dominate. A man who doesn't sublimate his will, at least in public, is subject to being killed or ostracized. Raping and pillaging is what a society that doesn't ask men to dull their emotional instincts devolves to.

>>9777683
>that quote
Why do women think that men deep down are exactly like they are? We're not all sensitive poets who get beaten into violent conformity. Deep down men are violent and vicious. If you want to see what an emotionally uncrippled man looks like, see Genghis Khan.

>>9777797

not an argument

>>9777873
>why souldn't women do this why shouldn't men do this
this is so stupid
nobody tells you what to do. if you're too pussy to wear a dress as a man or be in position of power as a woman, you're a pussy. If you can't take criticism and judgement, then succumb. it's not that big of a deal. you have a million other things you can do.
Also it'd be better to say why SOME men THINK they shouldn't wear dresses. I can find arguments for yes and no so philosophically it's not even interesting as you claimed

ah, monsieur, can we please stop shouting at each other, there are women watching!!!!

>>9777683
Damn that quote is pretty true. Even my female therapist got annoyed once when I broke down crying once. She basically told me to "man up". Got me interested in this book. I'll pick up an epub.

>>9777873
The problem with all of social science is that it views the origins of people's desires as being culturally imparted as opposed to something that results from an inherent psychology human beings evolved over time. The foundational axioms of intersectional feminism are bullshit.

>>9781182
Stepping away from masculinity is a good recipe for being alone. Women, no matter how open-minded they are, don't find weak men attractive.

>>9777633
>I'm a cishet white dude seeking an introduction to intersectional feminism, where should I start /lit/?
The trash. (That or suicide.)

>>9777683
> I went to college and got an intersectional feminist gf. It has been a great growth experience, I have discovered Empathy and learned a lot from marginalised folks
So, translating, you live off her trust fund? What a pathetic cuckold you are. Get a real job.

>>9781182
yes, monsieur, there is of course truth to it. but even the manosphere says things like this: Jordan Peterson says the same thing, however, via his evolutionary patois: the "dominance hierarchy" forces men to compete viciously against each other. the name of patriarchy denominates a system that benefits patriarchs, rather than masculinism or one of my noble country's inventive alternatives, like phallocracy (derided by transgender activists).

whatever the merits of feminist literature, bell hooks is the proverbial JK ROWLING of it, and intersectionality is an impoverished and metaphysical sociology which reifies privilege theory, which on the one hand, is a dumb meme for all kinds of overly sensitive cucks on the internet, and on the other is an incredibly vague heuristic for learning what Peterson would sagely call "the dominance hierarchy"

>Thread about feminism
>Actual discussion, it's not all stupid bullshit.

/lit/ truly is the best board.

>>9781210
Why the hell don't women understand they they select for dominance? Even women who don't care about money or power but only go after physically attractive men, they choose for features that indicate physical dominance, like musculature, height, jaw-width, etc. Even the women who claim to care about personality above all go after men who display social dominance through charisma. Women select for the very qualities they claim oppress men.

>>9781230
ah, calm down, monsieur, this is a feminist thread. the least sign of a temper will be interpreted as sexual frustration, and you will be mocked as a virgin who is masturbating every hour.

in all seriousness, men don't even understand that they "select for xyz". no one thinks in these terms except evolutionary psychologists and those similarly trained. so the answer is a question - why are you asking such a dumb question? are you sexually frustrated?

it's true, despite the feminists (to whom i am sometimes politically, sometimes intellectually, on the same page and sympathetic with), that women who like men like men who display, and rear to eccentricity and distinction, our sex's most distinctive attributes (which you have kindly listed), for the most part. some don't, and are eccentric freaks. as some men like BBWs and all kinds of kinky shit. obviously these are deviations, but i don't want to sound like a sexually frustrated retard so let us note them - ah, monsieur, i know you are not sexually frustrated, and enjoy many coupling and the women fall over you like bowling pins crushed by the force of your phallic intrusions.

not all women claim men oppress them, and not all men claim that they don't. let's be cautious here, because you are conflating women and feminists as if they are the same thing, which is absolutely ridiculous. feminism barely exists outside of the most civilised countries - ye may tell the most civilised by the treatment of woman blah blah blah. well, it's an old saw, but it's probably true.

anyway, the rambling, polemical tone of your post indicates you don't think women do now - in certain parts i'm sure - suffer in ANY FORM whatever, the oppression of our delightful sex. the so-called, sex oppression. and it disturbs you that they may think this of our sex, as if it were a slight against you? ah, monsieur, this is not a personal matter at all. how many times in your life has it happened that you didn't get that job, that girlfriend, that whatever, because of affirmative actions, the feminazis? i mean, cmon, really, you can't be that much of a loser, monsieur. i am rooting for your ascent into the dominance hierarchy

>>9781261
I'm asking the question because men are fully aware of the qualities they select for. It's not simply a mystery known only to those who study evolutionary psychology, it's well-established that men (typically) enjoy indications of fertility, like youth, wide hips, large breasts, and overall health. Most women and men understand this. But there's a large, culturally-important movement that suggest that these preferences are just an expression of a dominant group's attempt to increase the value of qualities that predominate in that group; that these sexual preferences are completely disconnected from the inherent psychology human beings evolved over thousands of years.

This isn't just an idea perpetuated by a few coastal feminist, but has actually filtered down to the hoi polloi. You see the notion of fat-shaming being discussed on social media all the time. And it's typically women who deny that their selection process is affected by an inherent psychology, while then expressing that same inherent psychology through their choice of partner. And then they chastise men for expressing theirs.

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>>9778489
>I'm married with children. Deprogramming my wife of her liberal feminist indoctrination was one of the greatest challenges of my life, and now she's never felt more fulfilled than living her role as a loving, nurturing mother and sexually submissive wife.
God bless you and your family, anon.

>>9777633
Friendly reminder than societies where women have more power over who their partners are tend to be more unstable. Friendly reminder that the reason societies go from matriarchal to patriarchal once civilization begins is because women's rights are incompatible with civilization.

>>9781210
dominance hierarchies are everywhere, not just men have them. women have them too. trick questions:

- who do most women dress for?
- who shames women to not be sluts?

the answer to both questions above is not patriarchy. it's other women and their dominance hierarchy. intersectionality will explain those with internalized misogyny or some bullshit like that, but the truth is that contemporary feminism just replaces those shaming techniques for different shaming techniques that keep all women in line.

to prove the previous point, see what happens when a women (or a minority) gets ideologically out of line from the party line. they immediately get torn to shreds, excommunicated and their "woke" feminist peers will send them rape threats.

>>9781362
matriarchal societies are a meme, they never truly existed. even in societies where there's a feminine goddess at the top don't usually have women actually being at the top socially.

>>9781386
Female goddesses were probably made up by men. It's just the childhood feeling that mommy will protect you turned into an object of worship. Once civilization developed and boys started being raised by men, rather than just single moms who stayed with their children while the biological fathers were off hunting game and raiding tribes, then a patrifocal society developed and people started worshiping male gods.

>>9781368
ironically, in a way, contemporary feminism has created the most perfect and purified test of whether women are actually men's equals or not, whether they are capable of the same spiritual self-determination of men, almost like a carefully controlled social experiment: it's created a single, monolithic, hermetically"clean" narrative to which they can all conform, which absolves them of any responsibility and thereby stifles their agency (and pride)

western women are in an environment where no matter what they do, they have a "button" they can push (The patriarchy did it!) that will make them feel better and excuse them from undergoing the pain of self-cultivation. in that environment, like a pure white backdrop, any drop of agency paradoxically presenting itself - e.g., by some woman actually doing what a man would do and saying "What the fuck? This isn't life. This is perpetual childhood!" - will instantly stand out in its full vital colour. whereas those rare women, or the rare tendencies and behaviours toward agency in a rare few women, might have been lost in observational noise otherwise.

at least if a woman actually proves she's "just like a man" at this point, we'll see it like a fucking nuclear bomb on the horizon. a good example would be a woman writing a sui generis "feminist" critique of exactly this:
>the answer to both questions above is not patriarchy. it's other women and their dominance hierarchy. intersectionality will explain those with internalized misogyny or some bullshit like that, but the truth is that contemporary feminism just replaces those shaming techniques for different shaming techniques that keep all women in line.

reading this coming from a man is like "yep, this guy gets it," but imagine reading it from a woman. you'd be like HOLY FUCK.. THEY'RE CAPABLE OF SELF-AWARENESS?! THEY'RE SELF-CRITIQUING NOW?!!?! ARE WOMEN ABOUT TO BECOME.... HUMAN?

i wait for that day, unremarkable cock in hand, and queue up another anime

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I'm a woman and reading this thread just makes me want to kill myself.

>>9781487
Because you disagree and hate the fact that men who think like this exist, or because you realize how shit women are and you want to end it?

>>9781487
if you are actually a grill, what is your opinion on the intersectional meme, and why does this thread makes you want to kill yourself? it's quite mild by 4chan standards

>>9781487
Why?

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>>9781495
A bit of both. I don't want to live in a world with these types of people who willfully seek to imprison others into a role.

>>9781533
I think intersectionality is very important and would be the law of the land in an ideal world, but human beings are far too egocentric to really put such a thing into actual practice.

>>9781582
Because I feel like I'm constantly fighting my own biology and society at the same time. Am I only destined just to be a birth receptacle for some man? To add to this, I belong to a lower caste race, among which there are so many unwanted children; I don't want to add to that cycle, biology and society be damned. I want to be better, but it seems so hopeless. Everyone wants to be great, but most people fail to understand that greatness will ultimately lead to loneliness.

>>9781650
Please dom me. Please.

>>9781187
>>9780958
>>9778681

What is it with right wingers and half baked evo psych? you can't substitute real historical understanding of human society with crude darwinism + economic actor model projected backwards in time. You claim to be traditionalists yet have no understanding of what traditional society was actually like. I don't think you have a clue about christianity except as part of fetishised muh western civilisation. It wasn't a sexual marketplace ruled over by alpha males versed in game theory and austrian economics, that's for sure. In the end, you people are nihilists, you have reduced yourselves to darwinian replicator machines and abstract pop econ models.

>>9781650
It's difficult for a woman to understand the emotional fulfillment involved in creating and raising a human being from scratch if she hasn't already done it. The problem is that feminists only want women to succeed in male-dominated avenues of success, which leads to a very lonely and stressful childless existence. And they want total sexual freedom for everyone, which will inevitably lead to unhappy men (if women aren't monogamous, the most attractive men end up hoarding all of the women), and unhappy women who are either childless or single moms.

>>9777683
>woman trying to pretend to know what it's like being a man.
Jesus fucking Christ let it end.

>>9777683
Here's the (You) you worked so hard for. You deserve it, anon.

>>9781650
>I don't want to live in a world
Good idea. Go for it.

> I belong to a lower caste race, among which there are so many unwanted children; I don't want to add to that cycle
You support black genocide? Awfully bold of you in the current moral climate.

>>9781450
There are women, exposed to abnormally high amounts of testosterone in utero, who have this potential. Camille Paglia come to mind.

>>9781650
>I don't want to live in a world with these types of people who willfully seek to imprison others into a role.
Seeking to imprison others to a role is what people always do. It's one of the most basic and necessary functions of any society. What's worse, it's not like there can exist some kind of a paradise where people can do exactly what they want and be exactly what they are: in such an environment one would certainly go insane.

>>9778089
They don't care about 'equal opportunities', they focus solely on equal outcome.

>>9781671
First of all, historical knowledge is often interpreted through an activist and ideological lens. Read any contemporary academic history book, and notice how they all interpret behavior as being the result of particular social or economic conditions, rather than a synthesis of an inherent human nature being filtered through a particular culture. If you think that a person's behavior is only influenced by a his or her environment, then you're likely to succumb to utopian notions and attempt to engineer culture to achieve those notions. It's fucking dangerous.

And second, I never said that ancient societies were a sexual marketplace run by alphas; i'm saying that cultures that take human nature into consideration do a better job of sublimating some of our baser instincts because those societies are aware that those instincts are real. If you create a culture where temperance and monogamy are valued, then you'd have fewer single mothers. If you create a society where you claim that anyone can sleep their 20s away, then settle down and have a proper family, then the nuclear family is going to crumble. Which is what is happening.

>>9781671
I'm a communist, a scientific anti-realist, and hate the Abrahamic slave faiths with all my might, and I agree more with their reductive, scientistic view than the anti-human views espoused by the church of contemporary feminism.

>>9781650
>Am I only destined just to be a birth receptacle for some man?
Ha. Being destined to something, even if only being a mother, is much better than not being destined to anything. And if you try to follow the mirage of the freedom of being a human (or a man) and deciding for yourself, by the time you realise its emptiness it would be too late. Biology indeed be damned.

>>9778489
>Deprogramming my wife of her liberal feminist indoctrination was one of the greatest challenges of my life
How did you achieve that?

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>>9781739
Fucking this. A woman has her role in society determined for her at birth. I, on the other hand, have to create my role from scratch, and whether or not I succeed depends on circumstances that are beyond my control. A woman can never understand how lonely and alienating this is.

>>9777633
Wheres the White woman :'(

>>9781650
>Am I only destined just to be a birth receptacle for some man?
You can also ask the opposite question, and ask if the man is only destined to be the working slave from whom the woman sucks blood.
But both angles are fucking toxic and you can instead view it as cooperating to create something worthwhile and beautiful.

>>9781677
I think Jordan Peterson is a rather poor reader of Jung, who I greatly admire. But this is one thing he articulates particularly well:

Men that find a career fulfilling a rare enough. And for them to actually land one that fulfills them requires a confluence of the stars. This trait and happenstance is astromically even rarer for women. Nothing is more fulfilling for the vast majority of people of both sexes than the traditional family life. The veneer of society that denies this timeless reality is thin and shoddy indeed.

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>>9781714


>If you create a society where you claim that anyone can sleep their 20s away, then settle down and have a proper family

Have you read any books about life in the 18th-19th centuries? first hand accounts? autobiographies? prostitution was widespread and in aristocratic marriages both man and wife were allowed or even expected to take on younger lovers on the side.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicisbeo

The atomised nuclear family is a postwar invention, already enmeshed in the same process of capital driven social disintegration that continues to this day. I do agree that the individualistic ideal of contemporary liberal feminism is market ideology. Many women would like to have children, but family is an unaffordable luxury under the present economic conditions. Like liberals, reactionaries like to pretend the economic base doesn't exist.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/05/handmaids-tale-margaret-atwood-trump-abortion-theocracy

>First of all, historical knowledge is often interpreted through an activist and ideological lens.

He who is without ideology can cast the first stone. pseudo enlightenment autistic positivism is the last refuge of the ideologue.

>>9781724

contemporary feminists are paper tigers. bourgeoisie radlibs who will expose themselves as right wingers at the first sign of serious opposition.

>>9781749
First I got her away from mainstream liberalism with radical left socialism (a dangerous move, I know). This got her out of her self policing henpecking circle, effectively isolating her from their toxic influence. Then gentle but increasing pressure was applied on the huge contradictions between hateful radical feminist ideology and the real love and fulfillment she was experiencing in being a mother. Cognitive dissonance only goes so far before something has to give. Believe me, the process itself was very messy.

>>9781801
I'm fully aware of how the objective of marriage shifts depending on time and place. I'm reading an academic book on ancient Greece right now, which explains how Sparta was on the extreme end when it came to marriages being primarily about lineage and property rights. The problem is that you can't fall into the trap of interpreting history only through its exceptions. Aristocrats and licentious city-dwellers didn't make up the majority of families, and just because a particular historical state of affairs is interesting enough to write about doesn't make it representative of that era's norms.

>Many women would like to have children, but family is an unaffordable luxury under the present economic conditions.

This is fucking nonsense. My stay-at-home mother was perfectly able to raise 5 successful children on my father's middle class income, and he made less adjusted for inflation than many childless cosmopolitan women do. The real problem is that women can't live a financially-independent life and afford the daycare and maids that fulfill her domestic duties without being rich. If she replaced those expenses by being a stay-at-home mom, and she had a husband who was willing to provide for her financially, then there wouldn't be a problem. Our values are the problem, not our current economic conditions. Women have been having children under far worse economic circumstances.

>be a black woman in america
>you and almost everyone you know has an IQ that is a standard deviation below that of a white person
>your communities are in utter decay with people committing an absurdly higher number of crimes than any other racial group within the same socioeconomic regions
>your academic standards are lesser so that you get accepted to unis and given 'diversity scholarships'
>many 'progressive' white students at these universities nonchalantly accept critical theory that they've never read and are genuinely convinced that it is impossible for a black person to be racist towards a white person
>you believe (and must believe to retain any dignity) that black people struggle because of the psychological and socioeconomic factors of living in a "white supremacist state", and that it's not the inevitable outcome for black people within capitalism
>this environment of guilt and timidity dominates the white liberal political atmosphere and your position is overwhelmingly reified at every turn
>the only people who seem to outwardly oppose you are campus conservative milo-types who are almost as dumb as you are

I was talking to this black girl recently whose father is an african-american studies professor and for whatever reason the subject of "what religion would you be if you had to be one?" came up. She said she would be a jew.
Is that not the worst answer possible for a black person? the group that has historically oppressed and dominated the working class? she somehow made it up in her mind that jews and blacks were similar. that antisemitism has existed because of jewish cultural or religious characteristics and the not the fact that they exploited the working class during periods of economic depression. She thinks racism against blacks exists because the majority white culture must lash out against the minority groups because of cultural reasons, and that it has little to do with the fact that blacks so often behave like third-world citizens.

Her race and her gender are the only things that inform her thinking. It's exhausting.

>>9777920
because opposites day became opposites forever

>>9781187

Was thinking this myself earlier. I've never encountered a feminist with even a basic understanding of psychology, or even an appreciation of it. Their qualms are always contextualised in society and it just seems like a HUGE thing to ignore.

>>9781650

We all get imprisoned into roles.

>>9781801
>Have you read any books about life in the 18th-19th centuries? first hand accounts? autobiographies? prostitution was widespread and in aristocratic marriages both man and wife were allowed or even expected to take on younger lovers on the side.
it's called modernism and it was shit. not sure why do you raise this as a counterpoint to traditionalism.

>The atomised nuclear family is a postwar invention, already enmeshed in the same process of capital driven social disintegration that continues to this day. I do agree that the individualistic ideal of contemporary liberal feminism is market ideology. Many women would like to have children, but family is an unaffordable luxury under the present economic conditions. Like liberals, reactionaries like to pretend the economic base doesn't exist.
the "atomised nuclear family" is a postwar invention. a normal big extended family were most children are raised by their siblings is the traditional one.

it's perfectly reasonable to raise a normal family in the current economic climate if you had the support of your extended family, but that institution has been broken down. there are plenty of third world or mexican families able to come here and create big families with the shitty economic situation. we can't because we lost those traditions and institutions.

the solution is not breaking the family further down but remembering where we come from.

>>9781944
>we can't because we lost those traditions and institutions.
This is so fucking true. Women aren't having kids because in a culture where religion and other socially-binding institutions no longer hold any sway, the only thing a woman has to give her life any sort of meaning is to climb the male ladder of status. And asking a woman to give up status by either quitting her job and taking up a life as a stay-at-home mom, or by using all of her money to raise children in a culture that doesn't respect her contribution, is insane.

>>9781877
>on my father's middle class income

You are nostalgic for a post war middle class that has been decimated by changing economic conditions. Workers today are faced with an increasingly precarious situation, instead of a career, we get a series of gigs. The modern middle classes are saddled by tremendous amounts of debt. But you ignore this and talk about lost vaguely postwar 'values' instead. That's why vulgar american conservatism is doomed to fail, if there is a future for the right it lies in catholic integralism or european nouvelle droite stuff, not in your hodgepodge of libertarian economics norman rockwell nostalgia and pop evopsych gleaned from PUA blogs.

>The problem is that you can't fall into the trap of interpreting history only through its exceptions. Aristocrats and licentious city-dwellers didn't make up the majority of families
> muh childless cosmopolitan women

childless cosmopolitan women are a tiny minority, the aspirational bourgeois lifestyle of salon/guardian columnists does not reflect the way the majority of the population lives, you know. see pic related.

>>9781961
>>9781961
also there was never such a thing as stay-at-home moms, people had a big network of support and you didn't have to raise your kids alone, women even from different families would come to your home and would give you their support, mothers would find themselves immersed into a living community where they would have a place. raising kids on a city flat by yourself where you can't barely ask anyone to keep an eye on them for 5 minutes is not a traditional family and not good for anyone involved, specially the kids.

also as women would get old they would become basically matriarchs and have a whole lot of influence and power if they played their cards right.

of course that is the ideal case, there's always been shitty families, but nowadays we are losing the ideal and no wonder people are not thrilled of taking part in the degenerated remains that are leftover from it.

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>>9781983
*pic related

>>9781944
>the solution is not breaking the family further down but remembering where we come from.

I don't necessarily disagree.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/camatte/wanhum/wanhum04.htm

>>9781983
>You are nostalgic for a post war middle class that has been decimated by changing economic conditions
I'm nostalgic for a cultural and economic condition that existed for me in the 90s, but somehow managed to disappear in the 2000s? The problem isn't the economic condition per se, it's the vacuous, nihilistic culture that creates a meaning vacuum at the center of our society that leaves people thinking that success can only be determined by material gain, number of novel experiences, and how well your sexual desires are met. Our exact current economic conditions wouldn't lead to fewer children if those other sources of meaning and community still held sway. Culture informs capitalism, not the other way around.

>childless cosmopolitan women are a tiny minority

This is demonstrably untrue. Cosmopolitan women are a minority, but spinsters are more common now than ever. Most Western countries are having children below replacement levels. Something like 40% of college-educated German women are childless, and Greece is close to having 1.3 children per couple. The population of childless women is insanely high in the West.

>>9781994
>also there was never such a thing as stay-at-home moms
Everything you said in this post, which is absolutely true (the reason my mother was able to raise 5 children with my father's modest income was because we belonged to a church community), doesn't debunk the term 'stay-at-home mom'. The term doesn't imply that mothers live solitary lives.

>>9777920
>Why has the hijab become a feminist symbol?
Because 'feminist' is just code for 'anti-Christian', and nobody does anti-Christian better than the Muslims.

>>9782053
>Greece is close to having 1.3 children per couple.

gee, i wonder if this might have anything to do with IMF/EU imperialism and the total economic collapse faced by greek society.

>>9782053
>The problem isn't the economic condition per se, it's the vacuous, nihilistic culture that creates a meaning vacuum at the center of our society that leaves people thinking that success can only be determined by material gain, number of novel experiences, and how well your sexual desires are met.

but where does that vacuous nihilistic culture come from? capital is the elephant in the room, the missing piece in the puzzle.

>>9782088
How does that explain Germany and Japan having about the same fertility rates?

>>9782053
You're very patient arguing with someone who betrays the principle of charity at every opportunity and whose ideal solution to the emptiness created by base materialism is a more equitable reconfiguration of material society and even further suppression of the human spirit.

>>9782107

Must be the power of being a tripfag. Like Christ himself, they're an underrated bunch.

>>9782088
Then why do immigrant populations, under even worse material conditions and imperialist oppression, have higher birthrates than natives in every white country even after several generations of assimilation? It's because they have not forsaken the human spirit for the materialist view espoused by both liberal capitalists and marxists. They retain the will to live.

>>9782104
Capitalism exploits the nihilism, but it didn't create or perpetuate it. Our current cultural circumstances without a well-functioning capitalist economy would be more parochial, and men would seek status through more violent and exploitive means.

>>9782106
Germany is subject to the same economic and social pressures as the rest of the liberal west. fun fact: many east germans are nostalgic for the wholesome communitarian spirit of the GDR, its free daycares and noncommodified sexuality, Stasi notwithstanding .

Japan is an outlier in many ways. Traditional post war values still reign and there was not a feminist movement in the sense the west had a feminist movement. Yet, young people are increasingly alienated, less likely to marry or even engage in casual sex and more likely to live with their parents.

>>9777920
Third-wave feminism abandoned women for multiculturalism.

>>9782001
> A childless person thinks they have any right whatsoever to lecture us about 'sleep deprivation'
Top kek.

>tfw my gf is a Latina who knows how to cook, wants kids, abhors feminism and laughed when I showed her Rupi Kaur

Feel like I hit the jackpot in our day and age lads.

>>9777736
This.

This isnt reddit. All women are feminists its only that one might not be feminazing out at a particular moment.

>>9782138
birth rates have plummeted the world over. It's hard to find a country with over 3.0 children per women outside of subsaharan Africa, and that's because popping out lots of kids is economically rational when you live off labor intensive subsistence agriculture and need lots of children to sustain you when you are older.

>>9782146
>many east germans are nostalgic for the wholesome communitarian spirit of the GDR,
i.e. many East Germans are nostalgic for the time when they were beautiful, energetic 19 year olds, and they confuse what they felt as lusty teenagers for how they felt about the demokratische republik regime itself at the time. Nothing wholesome about being raped by Russian soldiers and having to prostitute yourself for common goods. Nothing wholesome about being spyed on by your government.

>>9781691
Choosing not to reproduce is not genocide and people who believe so are being disingenuous.

>>9781706
I think there's a fine line between absolute freedom, which is relatively impossible due to civilization, and being a mindless collectivist. The struggle comes from trying to find a balance between the two.

>>9781677
Would you still say this if I were a single black woman subsisting on welfare in order to feed my bastard brood? I don't think you would.

>>9781739
Destiny, as we think of it commonly, doesn't really exist except in death. I only used the term because I was letting my fear speak for me.

>>9781758
But isn't that the pride of being a man, making one's way in the world? Why do so many men rail against this?

>>9781797
Isn't there more to life than being either a slave to family life or to the workforce? Is that really all there is?

>>9781928
That doesn't make it okay, anon. This whole thread is complaining about being pigeonholed into roles, be they traditional or modern.

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Sor Juana Ines De la Cruz

>>9782182
The American birthrate explosion was at a time when few Americans were still working on farms. The real problem is that we've become more narcissistic. We think as individuals rather than societies.

>>9782218
>Would you still say this if I were a single black woman subsisting on welfare in order to feed my bastard brood? I don't think you would.
A woman who's in that very unfortunate situation is a victim of the culture feminists perpetuate. She's a victim of a culture that tells her that premarital sex isn't just acceptable in moderation, but should be done as much as possible. She's a victim of the culture that tells men that, since God doesn't exist and religion is for slaves, that the measure of your manhood depends on how many women you can fuck, not by the family you've created. She's the victim of the culture that doesn't hold men or women accountable for their sexual behavior. The problem isn't the fact that she wants to fulfill her natural urge to have children, but that her culture doesn't want her to.

>>9782185
compared to the west, the OstBlock was an ethnically homogenous trad utopia.

>>9782185
>having to prostitute yourself for common goods

just like happened in Russia after the fall of the USSR and the ensuing liberal shock therapy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67B90iADadw

>>9782218
>But isn't that the pride of being a man, making one's way in the world? Why do so many men rail against this?
How well a man succeeds depends a lot on circumstances that he can't control. And women don't understand how worthless to society men who haven't succeeded are. As in no dates, no help, no sympathy. You are literally invisible unless you're lucky enough to have been born with the right genes. It's the loneliest fucking existence imaginable.

>>9782261
>the unparalleled horrors of communism might have been bad, but at least people weren't economically alienated!
come on

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>>9782277
Mao and Stalin still retain a demigod status among the majority of the population in their respective countries. people have taken to worshipping Stalin as an orthodox saint. hey, maybe those guys were onto something.

>>9782231
The baby boom? Also I think its uncharitable to say its strictly narcissistic. The extinction of the conservative views on making babies isnt neccesarily a terrible thing.

>>9782307
/pol/ worships Hitler, people are fascinated by the literal rape culture that were the Vikings, East Asians are proud of Genghis Khan. It doesn't mean shit. The guy in that picture was born long after Stalin died; he doesn't know what living under his regime was like.

>>9782312
I really do think that the predominant psyche of the world has become more solipsistic. Look at how concerned people are with freedom, especially in the west. The theme of most art now is freedom, as opposed to responsibility or duty.

>>9782218

I want people to accept roles that make for the most peaceful, prosperous, and stable society. If that means jettisoning feminism then so be it.

>>9782312
>The extinction of the conservative views on making babies isnt neccesarily a terrible thing.
it basically ensures the disappearance of the society in a few generations. i guess it's better than being nuked to oblivion.

>>9782253
But her sexual habits shouldnt be a problem if shes sufficiently safe when engaging in sex. The result of this is just the general low standard the culture has for blacks. Liberals champion this idea but conservatives are also responsible for not effectivelly standing against it. Like the left the mainstream right almost always expresses greievance against minorites and immigrants in a identitarian way (in this case nationalistic) but are still too cowardly to criticize black leadership and culture.

>>9782345

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with promiscuity and one night stands, it's really fulfilling and totally doesn't make you depressed and miserable.

>>9782345
>But her sexual habits shouldnt be a problem if shes sufficiently safe when engaging in sex.
i guess they aren't a problem if she doesn't care about ruining her mind for the rest of her life and having a shitty unfulfilling life after 30

>>9782331
And who knows how much things like intersectionality and Trump are due to the hunger this has created. To be part of something bigger than ourselves. And it doesnt matter if Trump cuts meals on wheels and kicks me off my healthcare, the spiritual expierence of being part of "making america great again" is more important. That is spiritual or at least pseudo.

>>9782356
Expand on that. How does that come about? Does this apply to black men (or men in general) too?

>>9782345
The fact that illegitimate children are becoming more common among white women proves that the problem isn't the black community itself. And no, our attitude to sex does matter. Our sexual culture is anti-monogamy in effect, if not necessarily rhetoric. Men in a secular culture are judged by how rich and sexually successful they are, and women are the victims of that male pride. Women also contribute to the problem by cheating more often than ever; by caring more about the short-term pleasure of "following one's heart" than long-term contentment.

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>>9782331

>The theme of most art now is freedom, as opposed to responsibility or duty.

>>9782366
The more partners a woman has before marriage the higher the likelihood that she'll get divorced. Once a woman has crossed the Rubicon of promiscuity, it's very hard for her to have a life where her happiness isn't dependent on her sex life.

>>9782378
This says so much. We're a culture of narcissists.

>>9782366
when you use every relationship / sexual partner just as a stepping stone to the next big thing that will come next you form a mental structure that can never be satisfied in a monogamous relationship and you will never be ready to form a family. you never learn to work through problems with your partner and to work as a team because on the back of your mind you are always aware that this is temporary and you can jump out at any time.

it applies to men in the sense that men in this atmosphere can't find success in forming a family and forming a family only seems to open up a can of worms that may ruin everything you worked for, instead of opening up new paths of success and growth towards the future.

>>9777873
>the trans one has facial hair
nice

>ctrl-f Crenshaw
>0 hits
Come on /lit/, I thought better of you.

>>9782380
Holy shit dude, unrelated note, but you said:

> Once a woman has crossed the Rubicon of promiscuity

I literally just took a sip of this soda called Rubicon. Passion fruit flavour. I swear to god look it up

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>>9782390

I'm not sure culture should be the only factor responsible for that gap (which is a whole order of magnitude so it's quite something). I would also put automation into that equation. Some of our duties and responsibilities DID go extinct, and no individual [inside the most modern and developed societies so far] is held accountable for things he or she would be even 50 years ago. "City people", for lack of a better word, are roaming around and they never had to worry about the most basic things like heating, bathing, farming, and even city things in themselves, like solving technical house problems are going out of the equation.

We are being handed much more to us than during any other time before, and I believe social justice is a mere environmental consequence of this. And some of it is not even being handed out by other people: we are just being granted laziness by our own technology. Grammar is one quintessential example, does anybody still write without automatic spell checking?

So it's not only culture of narcissism lowering notions of accountability, but also technology fueling complete absence of anything to be accountable for to begin with. Whatever duty we still have, it is heavily supported and noted by machines reminding us of it all the time; we do not have to take these things into mind ourselves, we can worry about abstract and naive ideas of "freedom", about how someone else is having it better than us, and so on and so on.

>>9782453
Maybe we'll go back to the garden of Eden. Isn't the primordial joy of Man when we had all of our needs met and we needn't work? We just frolick in the fields with all the creatures.

>>9782400
I would add to this the surely devastating unconscious effect upon women using contraception that have multiple sexual encounters and partners that never result in pregnancy. Has this ever been formally studied?

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>>9782320
50s nostalgia is letzte Mensch tier. communism is the main reason why the chinese and russians have resisted the wave of pussification that is currently killing the West.

How do you display nobility in the 21st century as either a man or a woman? Women aren't praised for having tons of successful children. Men aren't praised for being chaste and honest. It's like all that's valued in society is wealth and status.

>>9782449
It's a sign anon. Never pass the Rubicon of promiscuity yourself.

>>9782520
The reason Russia and China haven't fallen into the nihilistic trap is because they haven't yet reached the levels of material comfort that the West has. They don't have a need to invent problems for themselves when they've got enough real problems to deal with.

>>9782560
material comfort peaked in the postwar golden years of 1950-80. Everything since then has been a long downward slide into immiseration. I get the impression you get all your news from breitbart and hate-reading Salon, dude the outside world isn't all female urbanites riding the cock carrousel and neurotic sjws at elite colleges, those are tiny but loud segments of the population. meanwhile the real world is being ravaged by industrialisation, while wealth and power concentrate at the top.

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>>9777633

>>9782580
I don't think I've ever read Breitbart in my life. I'm a National Review type. And making these categorical generalizations about the people you're having a conversation with is a very petty and obnoxious way to argue.

The notion that material comfort peaked in the 50s, when information was buried in libraries, when mortgage discrimination was widely practiced, when women had fewer employment options, when oral contraception hadn't been invented, and when our current welfare system hadn't been realized to the extent it is today is actually insane. If there's anyone who has a naive understanding of our current predicament, it's you.

>>9782580

Despite being "immiserated" our poor enjoy a higher standard of living than the middling classes in "developing countries."

lol I love coming to the more intellectual boards and seeing feminism and other meme-philosophies get absolutely btfo

>>9782580
*deindustrialization

american right wingers see the market as the supreme expression of freedom and rationality. they complain about moral decline but their only solution involves telling people to pull themselves by their bootstraps somehow. ie. telling people to internalise the logic of the very system that is driving social atomisation.

>>9782621
>The notion that material comfort peaked in the 50s, when information was buried in libraries, when mortgage discrimination was widely practiced, when women had fewer employment options, when oral contraception hadn't been invented, and when our current welfare system hadn't been realized to the extent it is today is actually insane.

so now you're a liberal?

>I'm a (((National Review))) type.
hmm i see...

>>9777683
You could tell a woman made this quote, because any aspect of masculinity besides an external objectivity is utterly beyond their sphere of perception. Women somehow think they're so intelligent by complaining about a "lack of emotions among men, even while at the same time being sexually attracted to those sake men who they criticize, and also spurning the men who take their advice and decide to show more emotion. It's almost as if women purposely want you to disobey/ignore them for them to be attracted to you. Women fucking suck.

>>9782641
I'm a cultural conservative and an economic centrist. Being socially conservative doesn't mean that you think that women should have fewer opportunities to work if they posses the same skill and will that men do. I think that women who would be better off working than having children are the exception, but they're an exception that I respect. The lesbians who aren't that political and don't hate men tend to be smart and respectable.

>I'm a (((National Review))) type.
>Jewish echoes
Sorry. Didn't realize I was wasting my time.

>>9777683
The responses to this quote really prove something that Valerie Solanas said decades ago:

>The male is a biological accident: the y gene is an incomplete x gene, that is, has an incomplete set of chromosomes. In other words, the male is an incomplete female, a walking abortion.... To be male is to be deficient, emotionally limited; maleness is a deficiency disease and males are emotional cripples.

Solanas was truly ahead of her time. It isn't patriarchy that cripples men emotionally; it's just what men are. The very core of maleness is to be a lesser version of a woman.

>>9782643
I hate to be that guy, but sometimes I read shit written by female journalists and academics and think to myself "yeah, I know why men oppressed you gals for so long." It's like their brains are incompatible with any sort of honesty, self-criticism, or logical consistency.

>>9782663
>that female logic
>that postmodern abuse of science
It's like those black people who claim that melanin allows them to receive messages from the sun. Wonder why there are so few respectable female scientists? It's because this is how they think.

>>9782663
>men are emotionally limited
I would argue that this has some truth to it, but it wouldn't be any less true to say that women are intellectually and physically limited when compared to men. And it would be even truer to say that women select for emotionally-limited men, and find male sympathy to be synonymous with weakness.

>>9782663
I know she meant to provoke outrage with this, but I feel genuine pity for women caught up in a culture that programs them to reject and rebel against their most basic biology and time tested ways of living a rewarding life.

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>50 Shades of Grey
>Gone Girl
>the preponderance of romance novels
>the growing acceptability of rough and degrading sex
>growing use of the term "daddy"
Am I just a crazy misogynist, or are women signaling to men that they want to be dominated, but are too timid and inhibited to come out and say it? It's like their bodies are rebelling against this idea of gender equality that society is imposing on them.

>>9782737
It's not women who have begun to use the word "daddy", bud.

>>9782744
I know it started with gays, but it's become a meme among young women. I hear it all the time now

>>9782337
Unfortunately, societies lacking in rights for women are neither prosperous nor peaceful, so feminism is not the problem.
>>9782271
How are we even defining success here? Are you speaking from personal experience?

>>9782737
I'm not sure how Gone Girl serves as an example here. The male protagonist is far from being a dominant male stereotype.

>>9782807
>How are we even defining success here? Are you speaking from personal experience?
Success is determined either genetically (born attractive) or through some sort of status achievement (this depends on your age, but for someone in their mid-20s it means a good education and good career prospects). And yes, I am speaking from personal experience. Even though I have no problem speaking to women and most of my friends are women, being born too poor to receive a good education and too unattractive to be able to rely on looks means that I realistically face the prospect of dying alone. And this is pretty common for men my age, just look at r9k. I don't think women understand how relationships work for men in the modern world.

>>9782807
Gone Girl is clearly anti-feminist. The author said said so herself. It's a cautionary tale about how women use their status as perpetual victims in order to manipulate men.

>>9778638
What? No it doesn't.

>tfw you will never be a woman
>tfw you will never be valued for who you are rather than what you accomplish
>tfw the love you receive is always conditional, and will go away if you lose your job or become disabled
>tfw women live life on easy mode

>>9782744
It's what my wife calls me at home. When she slips and does it in public she gets very embarrassed.

>>9782966
What happens when you have kids?

>>9783017
I do have kids. Everyone calls me daddy. It's nice.

My wife's wymyn's college alums would be mortified I'm sure.

>>9783079
She does it in front of the kids? Do you think that's appropriate?

>My wife's wymyn's college alums would be mortified I'm sure.

Please tell me your wife self-identifies as an empowered feminist

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>>9777633
we get enough /pol/ posters does this thread need to exist?
>>9777873
please take you american oppression olympics to your local feminist club this is srsly annoying on a board where i expect to read things about literature and philosophy not pop-culture buzz words.
>>9777920
literally >>9782158
>>9778350
surprisingly well made satire

>>9777633
friendly reminder that societies that give women too much power die out. Once women owned 40% of the land in Sparta, the Spartans stopped having children.

>>9777633
kill yourself. Either way your brian dies.

>>9782737
I'd agree. Mostly black girls from my experience, though. Take from that what you will.

Generally, maybe it's like the rape fantasies occurrence. It's supposedly common, simply because it's now considered taboo socially?

>>9782850
It worked then, because it terrified me more than 1984 did.

>>9782966
Heh. That's cute, anon. It must be a very intimate/sexually rooted thing for her to become so embarrassed.

>>9783083
IT's not damaging for the kids to hear it. Think about it, didn't your mom ever refer to your father as Daddy when she was talking to you?
If it's about her directly calling him Daddy when she speaks to him, then it's no different than a cliche pet name like Honey or Dear.

>>9782390
Look no further than the "selfie" culture. Many people, and especially women, are more interested in showing others what they are doing instead of the activity itself, taking pictures whenever they go out for food or do anything worth showcasing.

>>9783375
>didn't your mom ever refer to your father as Daddy when she was talking to you?
No. That's fucking weird.

>then it's no different than a cliche pet name like Honey or Dear.
"Daddy" in the context he and I were referring to is particularly sexual. It's not a pet name, it's kinky sexual roleplaying brought into the non-sexual world, which is why she was embarrassed when she used it in public.

>>9783386
what did your mother call your father? and vice versa

>>9783386
There is no distinction between a sexual and non-sexual world. We are sexual beings with the flimsiest facade of rationality. Your (((slave morality))) is showing.

>>9783529
The facade is worth preserving because it's what culture is built on. Sublimation of our instincts is the origin of all great art. Preserving the innocence of your children for the few years it lasts is worth it not just to show them that a world separate from sex and violence exists, but that there are higher virtues and needs that don't just relate to the physical.

>>9783526
They call each other by their middle names.

>>9783546
>Slave morality in a nutshell.

>>9783576
When your daughter's sucking dick for crack, then you'll see my perspective. I was introduced to sex far too early, and it fucked me up.

>>9783599
Those behaviors come from the Jewish culture of shame, guilt, and taboo that have infected our society, but our children our hopefully well insulated from. They know that the workd belongs to the most beautiful, the smartest, the strongest, and that is how things should be. Pity the weak, be charitable, but feel no guilt and have no illusion that they will ever overcome their destinies.

>>9783651
Freedom and addiction go hand-in-hand. Guilt doesn't cause one to have a chemical dependence on cocaine. Shame isn't what causes people to seek new sexual experiences as often as possible, leading to sexual escalation that results in degeneracy. Taboos don't keep women from having children out of wedlock. Your ideas would contribute to the problem, not minimize them.

>>9777633

That's the spirit! I would use a firearm first, if you're looking for less pain. If you want family to be the first too find you, use a rope? It won't be pretty, but it looks like you're ready.

>>9783657
You're absolutely clueless about the world. The human will is the most powerful force in the universe, and you won't even acknowledge that such a thing exists.

>>9783721
>The human will is the most powerful force in the universe
You're so fucking spooked out. Human will doesn't exist separate from the body and the limits nature imposes on you.

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By killing yourself, you don't deserve to be apart of the master race.

>>9783874
Ironic post of the day.

>>9783874
>tfw no US army aryan chad bf to beat minorities with

>>9782380
Correlation does not imply causation.

>>9783253
Source?

>>9782380
FACT: conservative politics are 90% anxiety about not being able to satisfy women sexually.

>>9784013
http://www.menshealth.com/sex-women/politics-of-sex

https://townhall.com/columnists/kurtschlichter/2015/04/20/sexy-conservatives-will-outbreed-barren-liberals-n1986978

>>9784013
And 90% of leftist politics are about being able to satisfy yourself with as few responsibilities as possible

>>9783967
What should be done instead is to investigate the root causes of promiscuity and nip that in the bud.

>>9784061

> investigate the root causes of promiscuity and nip that in the bud.

three words. female genital mutilation. Chop off those clits and hypergamy will be a thing of the past. That's why feminism never prospered in the muslim world.

>>9784069
Hypergamy is prominent now because of the death of the family unit. The "intellectuals" of the 50s-80s saw to that.

>>9784078
>blaming muh implicitly jewish intellectual boogeyman rather than the inherent perfidy and depravity of Woman. If Marcuse had lived to see reality tv about transgender 5 year olds, he would become redpilled in a heartbeat. the 60s generation had a too sunny view of sexuality that didn't account for female perfidy.That's why the sexual revolution did not lead to commmunism but to a dark managerial neoliberal gynocracy

>>9784069
"The female orgasm, a kind of hysterical paroxysm, should be regarded as symptomatic of a psychosexual disorder, which should be treated by circumcision of the clitoris."

>>9783386
>No. That's fucking weird.

Not even when you were young, like 5? Were your parents robots?

"Anon. Tim will be home in ten minutes. Make your bed or you will be appropriately punished for your transgression to the authority of your parental units."

>>9783549
that's weird

>>9784346
My mom just said "your father" or "your dad." That seems fairly typical to me

>>9782218
Jesus, are women these days really this naive? If you think any ideology, especially one espousing ideas of victimhood, should be the "law of the land," you're so blind that I'm afraid nothing could possibly enlighten you.

>>9784643
I don't see how you garnered that from my post at all, anon.

Also, where do you think the law comes from?

>>9782850
>Gone Girl is clearly anti-feminist.
Only if you're stupid enough to see Amy as a stand-in for all women everywhere.

>>9782842
I bet you're not as ugly as you think you are, anon. Most of the guys on r9k look like regular people.

I'm not an attractive woman; I see how actual good looking women get treated in comparison to myself, it pains me. And no, I'm not obese, I just have a mannish face and a weird body. You could probably tell me that you'd go out with me, but I know you wouldn't. I'm sorry we both weren't born beautiful.

>>9777790
> pissbabies

numale who voted For Her detected

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>>9782807

Switzerland didn't grant women full political rights until 1990, and Switzerland is not what you would call a poor country.

The Middle East isn't poor because of their lack of respect for gender equality, lmao. It's because Islam specifically forbids the charging of interest, which is pretty much essential to a functional economy. Muslims are, in a very literal sense, stuck in the Middle Ages. Yeah, I know they now have a bit of a workaround system but they've been at a self imposed disadvantage for centuries. They also have a very small middle class and host of other problems, but misogyny is not one of them.

Pic related, a Ferrari that someone abandoned because Muhammed doesn't like bankruptcy protection.

>>9783657
>Freedom and addiction go hand-in-hand. Guilt doesn't cause one to have a chemical dependence on cocaine.
we have studies were well socialized rats don't get easily addicted to cocaine. rats that are isolated or badly socialized get addicted much easier. it's not just about freedom.

>http://cocaine.org/cocaine-addiction/what-the-cocaine-addiction-rat-studies-reveal/

>>9782686
eh she was probably a lesbian

>>9784840
>I'm not an attractive woman; I see how actual good looking women get treated in comparison to myself, it pains me. And no, I'm not obese, I just have a mannish face and a weird body. You could probably tell me that you'd go out with me, but I know you wouldn't. I'm sorry we both weren't born beautiful.
Ive always felt bad for women in that sense, but men are equally subject to standards, only maybe not as much in the beauty standard as in others. Its something natural and unavoidable

>>9784034
Idk they seem to be spending alot of time and money protesting and organizing themselves politically. Meanwhile the right is allergic to the idea of paying any taxes. To hell with it the left would rather Western civilization burn than be percieved racist. Now thats dedication.

>>9784346
>>>9784091
I said mama and pops. I still say pops

>>9784894
>The Middle East isn't poor because of their lack of respect for gender equality, lmao.
Really? The reduction of a potential workplace by 50% is not a major cause? Same goes for Africa. One of the solid ways to help a society get out of poverty is 2 empower the women in the society, and give them reprodoctive autonomy (im not saying abortion has to be one of them but the rest)

>>9783657
>Freedom and addiction go hand-in-hand. Guilt doesn't cause one to have a chemical dependence on cocaine.
That is waaay to reductive bro. How come there is so much drug addiction among the poor classes in america? Clearly people can go to drugs for all kinds of reasons. And yes guilt and depression can lead to any drug abuse.

>>9784840
>Only if you're stupid enough to see Amy as a stand-in for all women everywhere.
The author herself said "I killed feminism" after writing the novel. It's clearly a book about female manipulation, not just about the evils of an individual woman. There are other instances of the author pointing out female privilege throughout the novel.

>>9785381
Europe's relative wealth was even higher during the 17th-20th centuries, at a time when women weren't expected to work. The wealth of Western societies can't be reduced to gender equality.

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>>9777736
>women are all right tho.
but you're wrong.

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>>9781671
>muh right wing boogeyman
how do you manage to become so obsessed with such an outdated term

>>9777633
I know this is bait but no ideology can provide a real solution to humanity's material and/or moral problems, the only actual solution is antinatalism, anything else (egalitarianism, fascism, communism, whatever else) is just a temporary band-aid

>>9785960
What's wrong with enjoying pizza?

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>>9785973
nothing at all, apparently

>>9785993
Why are you posting pictures of your average Americans?
What is your point?

>>9786009
my point is that the average woman has been so mindfucked by a popular culture which has been hijacked by feminism (or, more broadly, Marxism) that the women are not all right. far from it.

>>9786043
The problem isn't marxism, it's the hedonistic obsession with individual freedom over socially-imposed duties that's been part of Western thinking for hundreds of years.

>>9786043
I don't understand Marxism. Jpg

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>>9786063
sorry, I can't hear your ((reading)) of Marx over the sound of clownworld intensifying.

>>9777873
>pro-choice
>hearts

where are the skulls

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>>9778536
>building a phalanstery, dedicating oneself to the construction of situations, bringing harmony to the universe, resuscitating the dead.

lmao dis nibba on some next level homo shit

>>9786078
Marxism is literally opposed to identity politics like this

>>9786043
"Feminism" is not the bullshit strawman that idiotic Americans and idiots on 4chan often associate it with, Marxism is not at all related to the idpol garbage you're posting.
Kindly read a book.

>>9786109
an unimportant detail to those engaged in marxist praxis
>>9786121
you're trying to tell me that one branch on the tree has nothing to do with another branch. read a book yourself.

Now, a bit unrelated to all this talk.

One of my problems with the way Feminism speaks is that it implies there is something intrinsically good and special about whatever group it's talking about, whether it be gays or Muslims or blacks.

On a side note, for Muslims specially, I feel it has the effect of taking a complex and centuries old religion into little more than trendy identity.

>>9784840
I was following the discussion from this post, which I assume was you >>9781650

So you think we just need a "better" ideology after the profound failure that it has resulted in? We need to rethink ideology altogether so that our nomos can correspond to the problems inherent in being and consciousness. Feminism is just as terrible as right-wing conservatism--they're both concerned with factional victory, and the former in particular wants to level everything down so that all is equal. Democratic pathos is a lie, men and women are inherently unequal, and traditional societies heed this difference by allotting roles that allow both groups to flourish into the completeness of their being. We obviously can't go back to primitive pre-industrial life, but we could certainly learn a thing or two from them.

>>9785834
Bro correlation and causation. As a a general rule societies do better when they have a post-feminist workforce. Just think about it

>>9786425
You complain about the correlation/causation fallacy then go on to make that mistake in your next sentence. Good job.

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>>9786425

>Bro correlation and causation
>As a a general rule societies do better when they have a post-feminist workforce. Just think about it

Oh boy

>>9786043
I find a healthy amount of feminsim in a young woman as very attractive actually. That particular moral earnestness I think is at the very least admirable or beautful to witness, even if i dont agree with it. I just dont understand that arm pit hair and the blue hair and the screaming.

>>9786439
No I didn't I said:

>As a a general rule societies do better when they have a post-feminist workforce.

Where did I this is true because of a correlation? in fact I didnt explain my argument (im too lazy)

>>9786447
I said: "as a general rule". You missed that part, kitty cat. Thats not the same as saying:

"societies do better when they have a post-feminist workforce. "

That would be closer to a correlation-casuation fallacy. But would still be stronger because if all societies did better after an emancipated female population, that would a be a strong correlation and a stronger argument for a cause.

BTFO

>>9786485
You're a huge fag. A beautiful mind would be one that rebels against prevailing moral trends, not succumb to them. A woman who rejects both feminism and Christian traditionalism, and instead is self-aware enough to live by a series of well-defined moral virtues that promote stability and happiness would be a great woman.

>>9786504
No i find it cute. I like that conformity. dont judge me. I like a rebellious heart in the men i fuck however.

>>9786501
>>9786494
It could just as easily be explain by claiming that a neoliberal society that promotes profit over everything else, and therefore exploits women as workers for profit, will be richer because they value material wealth over everything else. It's not the feminism that causes the wealth, it's the ideology that promotes wealth that causes the feminism.

>>9786511
You better be a woman. Your writing is extremely effeminate

>>9786519
you would know