Why do pseuds not understand how the Socratic method works?

But what if the the thing in question is too stupid to waste time pretending that it has merit?

>>9748888
Nice quads.
What if Sargon is too stupid to make such a statement? What does Sargon knows about ANYTHING at all? And in what istances has he demonstrated widsom and intelligence?

>>9748901
idk mane
My point was more in general.

>>9748881
>British ad revenhue collector who uses a dorky pseudonym
>relevant to an intelligent person's life

pik 1

Why is it that every time I see or hear about this faggot he's complaining about SJWs. We get it, you don't like them.

>>9748945
Just one of the right's many boogeymen.

>>9748901
This desu.

He doesnt use socratic methods, he is just the mirror of sjws on twitter. He uses the same silly identity politics as they do. Its a huge merry go round of shit, and he is neither intelligent nor scholastic

>>9748881

>Stop asking me questions that point out the flaws in my logic!

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>>9748881
>>9748901
>>9748945
>>9748988
>>9749074
>wahhhh BASED SARGOD keeps BTFOING my shitty arguments
Go jerk off to contrapoints, faggot

>>9749086
>>9749082
false flag shitposting is still shitposting

>>9749096
This.

Heh. Socratic meth

Meth

>>9748881
> You're supposed to genuinely want to find out about what you're questioning, not think you already know the answers and use it to show your victims they're wrong by pretending to not know about the subject.

TrumpSayingWrong.webm

>>9748888
You're right, sadly your parents noticed too late.

>>9748988
>he fell for the right/left meme

Socratics are for dipwads anyway. grEEKs R frEEKs

>>9750004
>TrumpSayingWrong.webm
You realize that when Trump said wrong, it was because he couldn't argue with the truth and it was the equivalent of him saying "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU"?

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Here's a pseud for you.

>>9750013
Truth doesn't exist, ideologue.

What if Sargon only had 140 characters to make an statement with.

>>9750071
...He does?

>>9748881
the pic is retarded, but so are you OP

>not think you already know the answers and use it to show your victims they're wrong by pretending to not know about the subject.
have you actually read socrates? that's exactly what he does you fucking retard.

go back to the greeks

>>9750083
Worng.

>>9750085
on which of plato's dialogues was socrates not clear from the beginning about what was the direction he was trying to go? on which of the dialogues did he learn something from his conversation instead of just guiding the other pleb to the truth? show me 1 example

>>9750013
Wrong.

>>9750121
Nope.

>>9750088
Pretty sure you have Plato confused with Aristotle.

>>9750223
answer the question

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>>9750025
whoa thats rough

>>9750225
I just did. You're talking about something else entirely. Try again.

>>9748888
Socrates would disagree with you and claim that any concept or argument is worth seeing to the end.

I think this guy is mixing up the socratic method, or dialogue with the dialectic.


but in case you haven't guessed like all rising starts in the limelight.
maybe what they say at first has some authenticitiy and geniuneness to it.
but then it just develoves into said celebrity trying to keep the limelight on themselves for as long as they can.

but maybe sargon is implying that the SJWs in history have yet to arrive at a consensus wit the rest of the community.
His conclusion is to employ the socratic method so that history can be made whole again instead of fractured off into social justice camps.

>>9750088
Parmenides

>>9748881
>muh personal fanfiction interpretation of socrates' motivations
lol

>>9750271
Agreed, Sargon is a complete idiot.

>>9750083
Dude Socrates said it himself, that he knows only of his ignorance.

The guy geniunely wanted to find the truth.

He was just one of those annoying people that would always come up with a counter point/argument/example that puts yours on thin ice.

His whole schtick was "find the middle ground bro"

he knew he was ignorant.
He wanted to make sure everyone knew they were just as ignorant as he was.

>>9750277
>Dude Socrates said it himself, that he knows only of his ignorance.
unreliable narrator

>His whole schtick was "find the middle ground bro"
that was aristotle and still that's just the pleb reading of aristotle, he is more nuanced: sometimes "the middle ground" is on the extremes, depends on the situation

>he knew he was ignorant.
>He wanted to make sure everyone knew they were just as ignorant as he was.
that wasn't his project at all, that was just a meme he put forward to advance his project

>>9750312
I find you unreliable

>>9750324
good, you are starting to leave behind your pleb ways

What the fuck is with the argument I just witnessed? It's like neither of you are actually interested in an answer, you just want to meme until the other person gives up.

>>9750006
Top kek

>>9750083
>have you actually read socrates? that's exactly what he does you fucking retard.

Nobody has because Socrates didn't write anything.

>>9750223
No, he doesn't. Sargon is a faggot but you clearly don't know Plato's dialogues.

>>9750013
He was denying a baseless claim. That has been asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

>>9750363
Bullshit. Tell me what claim he was denying (so that I know you're not just blindly defending him) and I'll give you proof of the claim.

>>9750363
What can be eaten, can be eaten. Including children. Hitchens ignored priorities for actions. Most atheists do.

>>9750387
No he didn't and no they don't. What gave you that ridiculous idea?

>>9750363

That's all well and good except for the fact that, you know, the claim was true and substantiated with plenty of easily available evidence.

Unsurprisingly, wrong is often wrong, as in the case of the Times reporter, whom Trump did mock. But the beauty of wrong is that you don't have to get into all that. That's why it's especially useful in situations where Clinton is definitely, technically right, but there is a (modest) argument to be made that Trump isn’t just being flatly dishonest. It’s telling that he wrong'd on Wednesday’s debate when Clinton insisted that he had supported the Iraq war. Technically, she’s right—Trump said in a Howard Stern show that he was for the war. But in a deeper sense, she is wrong: Trump didn’t “support” the Iraq war because he never really thought about the Iraq war at all! His exact words on Stern, when Stern asked him whether he was for the war, were "Yeah, I guess so." He “supported” the war the same way I support wearing New Balance sneakers. Sure, whatever.

>>9750363
Using a Hitchens quote to defend Trump. That's rich.

>thinks Sargon of Akkad is a serious philosopher and not a political commentator
Jesus OP, I'm a fan of the guy but don't be ridiculous.

>>9748945
He have been making thousands a month by complaining about muh SJWs and feminism for 5 years now

talk about low hanging fruit

>>9750415
>No he didn't and no they don't.
What can be ignored doesn't have to be. Why would it? What if I were to ignore your babble on it?

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I always find this phenomena of random YouTube 'personalities' being worshipped very interesting.
What kind of cucks are attracted to shallow personalities who try and impose their world views upon you? What's the appeal of tuning in everyday to some guy spouting his opinions? Why even go so far as to defend these people and indulge in self-sustaining drama?

I'm genuinely curious what forces are at work here.

>>9750363
Isn't that a baseless claim?

>>9750363
>That has been asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence

Can you provide any evidence to support this claim?

>Man who has clearly never studied Plato tells me about the Socratic method

>>9748881
Surely, being intelligent and reasonable denizens of /lit/, we can all see that he doesn't mean 'literally the exact methods that the man Socrates used', and rather that he's referring to the idea of the 'Socratic method' as the phrase is used today, right? And we're all just memeing, pretending that we don't realise the obvious in our desperation to insult/support someone we loathe/like?

>>9750696

If by "Socratic method" he means simply "asking questions" then why not just say asking questions? It's almost as if he's trying to make himself appear more sophisticated and refined.

>>9750706
Because 'asking questions' doesn't accurately describe the method he would be using, and so would be a stupid fucking thing to say. What he's saying is that he would be feigning ignorance and asking a series of questions designed to expose flaws in his opponent's logic, a method much better described to modern English speakers by the phrase 'Socratic method' than 'asking questions', as should be obvious to anybody not being pedantic for the sake of their own agenda.

>>9750729

But the Socratic method doesn't involve "exposing flaws in opponents logic." It's about finding truth, it's not a competition. You're conflating it with classical sophistry so it's a misuse of the term. Sargon is not engaging in philosophy, he's trying to win arguments.

>>9750706
>It's almost as if he's trying to make himself appear more sophisticated and refined
ah, there it is.
/thread

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>>9748888
>he thinks Socrates seriously entertained the ideas of retards like Glaucon without knowing them to be wrong
shig-a-dig-dig

>>9750332
>It's like neither of you are actually interested in an answer, you just want to meme until the other person gives up.
Where the fuck do you think you are

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>>9750355
quality post

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>>9750425
>New balance
The proof's in the footing

>>9748881
Sargon and the BASED KEKISTANpedes will make the SJWs go through all of history and list all of the BASED BLACK MEN for them.

>>9750462
I always find this phenomena of reading politics and philosphy very interesting.
What kind of cucks are attracted to shallow personalities who try and impose their world views upon you? What's the appeal of reading about some guy spouting his opinions? Why even go so far as to defend these people and indulge in self-sustaining drama?

I'm genuinely curious what forces are at work here

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>>9751297
They're official drift sneakers idiot I bet you take public transportation

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>>9751337
>Not taking a bus with 50 crazy old black coots with canes to keep green
At least I don't borrow my mom's car AND her sneakers.

>>9751304
Shouldn't be hard.

>>9748881
the socratic method literally doesnt work if you dont have an answer in mind

>>9748881
Stop picking on Calgon of Arcadia. You're just too beta for his awezomeness.

>>9750696
>>9750729
t. Sargon

>>9751723
But if your answer is wrong you should be prepared to admit it when you learn more.

>>9751327
>he conflates youtubers with thinkers

Pathetic desu.

>>9750363
Anything can be asserted or dismissed, with or without evidence included.

>>9752743
>he has an inflation fetish

Erotic desu.

EROS!

>>9750088
Euthyphro is inconclusive

>>9750363
Why? Some ideologues said so?

>>9752743
Luddite

He is the embodiment of the alt-right. A beta white male that terrorizes women and exerts his frustration on inanimate objects because he's too much of an idiot to do anything to change his life around. Inhumane, cruel, but ultimately a coward as well.

>>9750462
Beause they get to feel like they know something without thinking

>>9750462
It's mostly Gen Z that worships YouTube. No idea why.

All of these 'alt-right' youtubers and the people that follow them are just disgruntled mensch who don't have any power in the real world so they get off on vicariously DESTROYING dumb lefties. Nietzsche predicted this shit a long time ago

>>9754405
>Nietzsche predicted this shit a long time ago
Source on that?

>>9754368
do you think he and sarkesian had angry sex? they could hate fuck like nobody else except like a jewish princess and hitler

>>9754421
Both of them should disappear.

>>9749086

contrapoints is pretty good looking desu

>>9748881

"ANITA!!!!!!!!!!!!"

>FAT RETARD FAKE LAUGHS AHAHAHAHAHHAHA

"YOU CAN'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

>HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHA SNIFFINSF ISFNISFNSHSHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH

"ANITA YOU'RE SO STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

>AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHdon'tforgettolikesubscribeandcheckoutmypatreonthanksguysstayuncucked

I legitimately hate every eceleb.

>>9754660
I like Jason Gastrow because he insults basically every eceleb and spends the rest of his time enjoying himself.

>>9754696
that sounds like eceleb gossip which would be 1 level of retardation beyond just directly liking ecelebs

>>9754703
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n83K-cHHg4
Here's the video.

Sargons videos are the Youtube equivalent to greentexting. You know that thing retards here do when they don't know how to type or respond to arguments? They just start responding to individual sentences. That's exactly what Sargon does in video form. He'll play a video for 10 seconds and stop to talk for 20 and repeat, and nothing of substance ever gets said.

>>9754711
Isn't that just how you address multiple arguments?

>>9754719

You have to go back

>>9754719
Not at all. It's an idiotic way of arguing when you respond to the post line by line when the argument is meant to be addressed as a whole. It reminds me of those shitty CinemaSins videos. They express some stupid criticism and then it unpauses and their question is answered in the next second, because it's almost like they do it line by line instead of watching the whole movie first.

>>9754696

>videogamedunkey

Yeah, no thanks, manchild.

>>9754797
“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

― C.S. Lewis

>>9748881
Fucking christ, that is one of the most smug, neckbeardy things I've ever read.

I think that one the worst things to come from SJWs has been anti-SJWs.

>>9748881
he's what kevin smith would be if he spent all his time on the internet

>>9748881
What's a Socratic method?

>>9755747

It's just a heuristic that involves questions and answers. Retards like Sargon think its some kind of epistemological technique or philosophical bat they can use to win debates and DESTROY the opposition. The truth is that have no idea what they're talking about and they just use terms like "Socratic Method" because it makes them appear smart to other people that don't know anything.

>>9754810

What's the relevance?

>>9748945
Youtube "skeptics" are essentially moneyprinters who attack the lowest hanging fruit available. They used to attack insane Christian types, then they got into SJWs and Muslims. Finally they've now realized that they themselves are the lowest hanging fruit, and are devouring each other.

>>9756699
"manchild" is the sort of insult you hear almost exclusively out of insecure people, because it denigrates youthful exuberance.

Dunkey's good btw, he's the only vidya person who's any good at discussing actual vidya. There's something distinctly whimsical and genuine about the way he goes about it--which is to talk about what he likes instead of what is current, but not as a shtick. AVGN for example has gradually lost relevance because he's simply run out of old games to discuss, Dunkey doesn't face this problem because he can at a whim whip between Red Dead Redemption and Star Fox 64.

>>9756738

I don't give the tiniest little squirt of shit about video games. Go play with your toys.

>>9754659
You're gay lol

>>9754810

>defending a video game manchild

What board am I on?

>>9756896
>read quote
>learn nothing from it
I don't know, but you don't belong here.

>>9756699
>>9756749
>>9756896
Can you samefag any harder?

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>>9754810
>mfw i read that this quote was by Louis C.K. the first time

>>9748881
>You're supposed to genuinely want to find out about what you're questioning, not think you already know the answers and use it to show your victims they're wrong by pretending to not know about the subject.

What a halfassed definition of the Socratic method and elenchus.

>>9757014
What's the real definition?

>>9748881
are you being retarded on purpose?

>>9748881
because educators mislead their students into thinking they're employing the Socratic method when they ask questions to lead their students to an answer. i had several teachers who used the method i just described and referred to it as the Socratic method

>>9756807
What's so bad about being gay? And what's so bad about being gay for Contra?

>>9753128
It's the natural progression of the BRAP meme

>>9750462
Because, unlike other mediums, there's an air of direct interactivity to it. With YouTube, you feel as if the entertainer is speaking directly to you or discussing the issues directly to you. This aided by the ability to leave comments they can read personally on the same work you just watched. This isn't really the same case with movies and books and games.

>>9757153
Google it fagtron.

>>9757220
>not the patrician giantess fetish
Shaking my head to be honest.

>>9757326

That's what people say when they don't know the answer.

>>9757336
Truth. Anonymous BTFO

>>9749086
steg beetles are so cool

Because law school bastardized the Socratic method.

>>9757218
If I were a big fairy like you, I'd tell you that Contra only looks good when he uses soft lighting that complements his nose shape and hides his shoulders/arms, but I'm very straight.

>>9748945
That's his career

>>9757562
You sound closeted as heck.

>>9754404
It's a friend simulator
People are beginning to feel very lonely, and YouTube provides a very nice simulation of what it would be like to dick around with your friends. I don't get the "skeptic" community, though. I think people just get a kick out of being pissed off for 15 minutes.

>>9757183
but how about Socrates' geometry exchange with the slave boy in the Meno? i'd always thought that had exemplified the socratic method

>>9757581
Closets are for fags, and heck is too.

>>9757588
>People are beginning to feel very lonely
Why is that?

>>9757615
Sounds like you belong in both.

>>9756749
Hope it makes you really angry to know that there is nothing you can do to make me leave this board and you will always end up in discussions with me. Get roasted, pleb.

>>9757648
Couldn't say.

Zzz.

>>9757648
no tradition. lots of broken families. small families with no network of support. no father figures. no siblings to beat up some sense unto them. sad older siblings who practiced immediate gratification with no long term pay up.

the younger generation have no societal structure to guide them so they are trying to figure it out however they can. hopefully the internet generates enough good stuff that they don't end up like millennials, the only good thing of millennials is to serve as a bad example to redpill generation Z

Will he be invading a childrens playground to ask these questions?

>>9758702
>redpill
Somehow I get the feeling you're part of the problem.

>>9758729
i am not part of anything and i don't advocate for anything specific. i'm just saying that modernity has clear unexpected consequences and we are going through a rough readjustment that no one is talking openly about

heck, western societies are unironically importing people from traditional societies and expecting them to adopt our "superior" ways. if this is not sad comedy i don't know what it is.

>>9758740
I don't see anything changing in my country, thankfully because my people were dumb enough to elect a president who is so incompetent that he is incapable of getting anything done. It's the same as it ever was, and that's fine with me. My only concern is if I'll have to deal with the stray psychopaths who get angry about the current state of affairs and "revolt."

>>9752308
if your answer is wrong you shouldnt be using the socratic method, the art of asking leading questions

>>9750739
This post is correct, I'm surprised nobody has pointed out that it's sophistry, not the socratic method, that he's engaging in.

>...dominated by the rules of tweet culture: short snaps, retorts, sarcastic or outraged remarks, with no space for multiple steps of a line of argumentation. One passage (a sentence, even part of it) is cut out and reacted to.

>>9750088
The early ones are all like that.

>>9758702
Nah

>>9758972
>>9758743
>wrong side of history detected
enjoy your wrong opinions

>>9758978
>history
I don't believe in any of that nonsense.

>>9758978
Great job contributing nothing to the discourse.

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>>9758993
>>9759001
>implying the train of history cares about your opinions
it doesn't

>>9759015
Marxist detected.

>>9759015
>He still believes in the past despite there being literally, LITERALLY no evidence for it
I see you've got a lot of growing up to do.

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>>9759027
this is now a parmenides thread

>>9759015
>not realizing Marx would probably be a anti-semitic reactionary if he lived today >.>

>>9759090
>>.>

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Bet you can't beat THIS with the Socratic method.

>>9756738
>"manchild" is the sort of insult you hear almost exclusively out of insecure people, because it denigrates youthful exuberance.
Don't be silly. Manchild = penis/farting/suicide jokes, lack of decency and obsession with vidya which have nothing to do with youthful exuberance and everything to do with being a fucking loser, 15, 25 or 45, indicative of the person not having gotten over the "lel random" stage of humor probably because they are/were bullied and friendless. What's shocking and exciting to the manchild is awkward and stale to the regular guy who moved on to more refined and creative observations and stopped challenging basic human decency because it tickles his power fantasy of getting back at chad.

>>9759319
Did you miss the C.S. Lewis quote, you immature brat?

>>9756719
Basically this. Easiest thing to make videos about for money. But now they've all got egos so (even the smallest ones) so they're the easiest ones to make videos on.

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>tfw you use the socratic method on your wife's daughter

I've read all of Plato and I still don't know what the "Socratic method" is beyond superficially defining it as "asking questions" and alluding to the midwifery in Theaetetus. Whatever it is, it's certainly not some method of persuasion that's used to win arguments like Sargon seems to think it is.

>>9749086
Don't talk that way about my wife. Contrapoints is gorgeous. They also make great content.

Does the Socratic method involve lots of black gay pornography?

>>9754416
Not him but I think he means the last man in Zarathustra

Sargon is honestly the lowest form of pseudo-intellectual. His entire shtick constist of nothing but going after the lowest of the low hanging fruits and declaring himself an intellectual. Whenever he comes face to face with something that actually challenges him intellectually or philosophically he devolves into projection, ad-hominems, false equivalents, answering questions with questions, going on tangents completely unrelated to the matter at hand, feigning ignorance, and when all else fails, crying about being persecuted by evil alt-right twitter nazis or simply stating he doesn't care who's right or wrong and it's all meaningless anyway.

Doot.

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>>9748945

At this point SJW's are a spent force. After all most of them were just middle class teenage girls during the early 2010s that really had no real power, they were just pawns in a larger cultural game.

People like Laci Green could feel the wind shifting during 2016 so she had to put on the veneer of a moderate, essentially reverting to a state of feminism prior to the new millennium.

The biggest benefit of this conflict was that the meanless, postmodernist identities that these women (and some men) made up for themselves on tumblr and projected into the cultural sphere, reawakened the hitherto dormant racial identity of the West, which IS real.

There is only so many times you can be called the source of everything evil on the face of the earth before you close ranks and go full Fascist.

Which is a shame because many of those that are Fascist were formerly individualist libertarians in good faith. Not anymore.

>>9761612
Huh? I'm pretty sure they're still around, except most people have finally realized "social justice" doesn't sound like an insult (it's like calling people "reasonablists" - you can't make that sound bad) so they've branched out to just calling them liberals, leftists, cucks, etc. All a big namecalling game.

>>9761612

People like Anita Sarkesian motivated me to vote for Donald Trump.

>>9761717
I'm sorry to hear about your mental retardation.

>>9761661

They are still around but only as a residual, the main body of the movement peaked in 2015. Similar to how the hippy movement persisted into the 1970s and 1980s or even until today despite peaking in the 1960s.

Soon the aesthetics of the movement will be supplanted by something else.

They self identify as liberals, leftists and cuckolds (people actually advocated polygamy). I don't see any reason why we shouldn't call them by the names that identify themselves as.

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Is /pol/ the muscle or the brains in their cultural supposed revolution? I think a mix is most likely, with a greater portion of useful idiots spouting memes, going to rallies, and getting violent on the streets as a handful of clever individuals push certain ideology through properly planned shilling and memes.

It's an interesting subject, but the YT pseuds are certainly servile to the alternative culture pushed by /pol/ or imageboards and forums at large. Just 7 years ago fedora-tipping was socially acceptable (christfags getting rekt lol!), then by 2014 the fedora meme took hold (along with big names like Dawkins and AmazingAthiest getting smeared hard) to the point where Christianity is being shilled on /pol/, /lit/, and /his/ every day.

Fascinating shit. Can't wait for the "New Crusade" meme to explode in public consciousness and for Israeli's and Americans to engage in a cooperative land war to occupy and settle great swathes of the middle east. Will be something to see.

>>9761723

Trump's election was meant as a hand grenade into the system.

>>9761738

I think you're overestimating the Crusader meme.

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>>9761739
And yet it hasn't worked because the same old Republicans are pushing the same old agenda now that they're in power, and the Democrats haven't changed their narrative either. It changed literally nothing other than making this country more of a laughingstock than it already was and ensuring that all the non-voters will come out in force next election to get this blowhard out of power.

>>9761723
Sorry to hear about yours cunt

>>9761781
He didn't say it worked, he said it represented a profound failure of traditional American politics, which is true. Democracy empowers fools, so I'm not sure why you include the laughingstock comment. It's an accepted and unavoidable side-effect of the system, re: Brexit.

>>9761781

>all the non-voters will come out in force next election to get this blowhard out of power.

You're in a bubble. Trumps approval ratings along with the stock market have done nothing but gone up since hes been elected. People don't lose reelections when the economy is doing good. Nobody really cares about what the world thinks.

>>9761759
Oh certainly. It will most likely never happen. But imagine if it did! Even if RACE WAR is more likely, I find the idea of the Pope declaring a Crusade in 20xx to be hilarious.

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>>9761789
>Trumps approval ratings
You're the one living in a bubble.

>>9761783
Ah, the discourse of Trump supporters. When you've got no arguments, throw out insults.

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>>9761717

>>9761738
>Israel
>helping the Crusaders

?

>>9761827
Jews obviously would charge (at a discount) for Christians to "co-own" Jerusalem in exchange for wiping out the Muslims at their borders. Crusader LARPers don't overlap with neoNazis much, so this could work.
I actually didn't put much thought into the post actually.

>>9761836
>Jews
>offering discounts
HA!

>>9761723

>vote for a woman who has been wildly incompetent at every position she's every held
>only holds them because of nepotism

The choice was clear. And you call people pseuds.

>>9761878
I did not vote for Hillary.

Why does every retarded Trump supporter assume that Hillary was the only other option?

>>9761781

I agree. Trump can't reform the system because the structures of government have an inertia that run independent of the President's power. Hence the intelligence agencies coming out against him hard. He can't implement shit of his agenda.

A good example:

The President tries to implement a ban on immigration from Muslim countries but is immediately challenged by the court system. We know the President has this power based upon actions of the office from the past, even recent actions with Obama.

Now compare this with the ease in which he was able to launch the missiles into Syria earlier into the year. No court obstructionism, no protests, within a few days he decides to bomb a country and it gets done.

What does this tell you about the system and it's intended policy frameworks, and how much power the President really has?

Bomb Syrians? Fine!

Not allow Syrians into the country as refugees? NOT FINE!

>>9761784

Trump represented a past time in America where white people weren't on the brink of being replaced. Probably circa 1980s, which is coincidentally when Donald Trump gained a lot of his notoriety.

That's why he won, even if he won't be able to necessarily deliver on his proposals.

The same is true of Brexit. White Britons treated the vote as a referendum on immigration.

>>9761893
So... Trump could bomb the American government, if he wanted?

>>9761905

Lincoln proved that precedent.

>use a greek name as your alias
>start mentioning greek related shit
>somehow convince stupid cunts that you are a greek philosopher king doing naked gymnastics with your bros

>>9761904
IF non-whites had actually went out and voted, the Republican party would stand no chance. The problem is that the Democrats did nothing to interest them and put an old white lady up as their candidate.

I heard there's some attractive brown-skinned woman that could be the Democratic candidate next election. If they put her up that is going to be the easiest win in election history.

>>9761982

I agree with you, but I don't think Trump will make it to 2020 without an economic downturn. Perhaps even 2018 midturns.

>>9762041
Yeah, I'm sure Trump will be out by then, which will make it even easier for Tulsi Gabbard to beat whatever milquetoast Republican they have in his place.

>>9762041
>>9762081
Trump has 2020 in the bag. He's done nothing but win thus far. More importantly, who will run against him? Bernie won't run, Perez has already said he will simply give the nomination to someone else if Bernie somehow manages to win it by popular vote. The Sorosoi won't let a DINO like Gabbard of Webb run, and even then both of them are thoroughly pleased with Trump. That leaves racist whack jobs like Kamala Harris, morons like Maxine Waters, or jokes like Warren. Good luck beating Trump with a woman whose campaign slogan is "Kill whitey", one who doesn't know how many states are in the union, or one who pretended to be an Indian to get free college tuition.

>>9761982
do you have any idea how many whites there are in the US

>>9762100
Did you even read the post?
1) Trump will be gone by 2020.
2) Tulsi Gabbard.

>>9762125
>1) Trump will be gone by 2020.
No he won't.

>2) Tulsi Gabbard.
Is pleased with Trump's progress so the fact that she won't be given the DNC nomination for being a DINO is irrelevant.

>>9762137
You realize it doesn't matter what the DNC does if a candidate is popular enough, hence Trump.

>>9762146
The DNC is not the RNC. The Democrats are not the Republicans. The people who vote Democrat are not the ones who vote Republican.

The Republicans are a loose coalition of multiple ideologies and groups whose only unifying trait is "We're not the Democrats". Trump could have run independent and divided the Republican party as Republican voters would vote for him. You cannot do that with the Democratic party as Democrat voters will not vote for you. The Democratic party has a unified hierarchy, a unified command structure, unified funding sources, unified backroom dealings, unified voter bases, and is able to force its members to engage in near lockstep activity.

So, yes, when Perez told Bernie "I will not let you be the nomination and will give it to someone else if you somehow manage to win the popular vote" he is entirely capable of doing just that. The majority of Democrats will NEVER vote for someone who isn't the approved candidate. How many votes did Bernie get? Zero from the electoral college and zero from the popular vote meaning John McCain and Ron Paul BOTH got more votes than Bernie did this election. This alone just hammers home exactly what I'm saying: The Republicans are a loose coalition based around personalities, the Democrats are a political machine based on consensus and enacting the will from on high. There are Republicans who would completely, seriously, and honestly vote for someone who isn't even running; no Democrat would ever dare do anything but what they are told.

So, yes, again: When Tim Perez says "Bernie will not get the nomination" it means "Bernie will not get the nomination". He could run as an independent. He'd lose, mostly because of lack of funding, and he knows this, hence why he will not run in 2020 assuming he's even alive or still in politics at that point. He's not a moron, after all.

>>9762171
Wow, this is like the complete opposite of the truth. The Republicans have been proven time and time again to be partisan as hell and vote for anything as long as their party supports it. It's the Democrats where you have to use reasonable arguments to convince your voter base or else they simply won't vote, as happened with Hillary.

Your post honestly reads as if you took the truth and switched the names around.

>>9758702
To state this in a better way, the dissolution of our personal duties to each other and communal institutions such as church and family. Which isn't to say those institutions or duties were necessarily correct, only that they gave a sense of purpose now lacking in younger generations. Increasingly, the void is being filled by having them latch onto political teams and narratives (SJWs, redpills, altrights, dark enlightenment, etc).

>>9762564

Why do you have to resort to partisan strawmen when the highest levels of the Democratic party had to resort to voter disenfranchisement within their own party to prevent a populist takeover by a Democratic Socialist?

Hillary's argument was:
1) I have two X chromosomes lol
2) fuck drumpf! xD
She didn't get 65 million votes because of reasonable arguments, the base of the Democrat pyramid is as anti-intellectual as the Republicans. Everyone knows this.

Sure she could articulate reasonable arguments when necessary, but they changed depending on who she was talking to, and for some reason, some of her base saw through that.

>>9762564

How do you explain the conservative "Never Trump" crowd then? Republicans include:

Libertarians
Neocons
Paleocons
Fiscal Conservatives
literal neo nazis

Most of these groups don't have much in common. I'm not that guy you responded to, but I'm more inclined to believe him than you.

>>9762601
>and for some reason, some of her base saw through that.
Gee, its almost as if Democrats aren't a monolithic entity and can identify a corrupt scumbag who doesn't share their values.

>>9761982
latinos are mostly culturally right-wing (even if they like gibs) and they don't have white guilt. once they are the majority and the marriage of convenience with the democratic party ends and they can start asserting they actual opinions america may turn right wing fast.

>>9762867
Just because they don't need the Democrats doesn't mean they'll go to the party of racists.

>>9762871
>the party of racists
being this sheltered. trump is the least racist candidate the republicans ever had. border control and protectionism are not racist measures, that just a meme that was invented on 2016 for some reason

clinton 1995
>It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years, and we must do more to stop it

obama 2005
>We all agree on the need to better secure the border and to punish employers who choose to hire illegal immigrants, You know, we are generous and welcoming people here in the United States, but those who enter the country illegally and those who employ them disrespect the rule of law and they are showing disregard for those who are following the law

>>9762882
Trump is only "not racist" in the sense that he completely refuses to comment on matters related to race. Which in itself is racist.

>>9762889
what does that even mean?

>>9750462
>You don't know something
>Want to find out, but reading sucks
>look up video and find guy talking just about that, explaining it in understandable terms
>because this is your only source it's your opinion too
>rinse and repeat

>>9761889
Because she was?
The electoral college pretty much guarentees that it's either Republicans or Democrats. The US could use a France-style election system with parliament instead of congress

>>9762990
Only because Americans are too stupid to vote for anything else even when both major candidates suck.

>>9762895

Don't give credit to anyone believing in CRT (critical race theory) that elaborated that liberal "color blindness" is supposed to be a white supremacist tool of control over "race realized" minorities. It found origin for example in the French CRT idea of "racisation de l'individu".

>>9763006
It doesn't matter. Your vote doesn't matter unless you live in a swing state. Even if you vote red and live in Texas, your vote doesn't matter as Texas was going red anyway whether you voted or not.

You can't just vote third-party because they can only get votes if they somehow score a majority in a state. However people won't vote third-party because American politics have become about not letting the candidate you don't like win. Green party voters have been ridiculed by Dems for taking some of the "left-wing" votes.

>>9763010
the funny thing is the left single-handedly created any credible white supremacy movement. if you put all white people in a box and label the box "bad" it's very easy to change the label to "good" than it is to create the box to begin with

then they blame trump for their own creation when he is maybe the least racist republican ever

>>9763035
Exactly why I will vote independent from here on out. Fuck all of them. Nothing is going to change in this country without an actual revolution.

>>9762609
They still voted to keep Hillary out juding by how close the voting was?

>>9763037

That's reductionist. But it may become true to some extent

>>9763151
All the Russians needed to do was change the results in three close states. That's how they pulled it off.

>>9761789
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/16/trump-approval-rating-historic-low-240598

>>9761739

You're supposed to throw the grenade after pulling the pin.

The American political parties are a joke. All Americans who identify as democrat or republican should be sent to the gulag or simply hanged. Not joking. It's a travesty.

>>9756719
Thunderfoot has already started going after Saigon of Arkadia and the like for their blind support of Trump.

>>9761612
>There is only so many times you can be called the source of everything evil on the face of the earth
As many times as is necessary for your kind to die out, fuckhead.

>>9759306

There's no arguing with conspiracy theorists, I'm sure they could find "reasons" to dismiss all those questions.

Why exactly have the mods left this thread up?

>>9764545
Socrates is literature-related.

>>9757648
People arnt mature enought to be free and think for themselfs, they desire a figurative father or community.

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>>9762564
>politics
>reasonable arguments

>>9761807
>donald trump manages a higher approval waiting than bush's second term
WEW

>>9765869
Did you look at this? http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/16/trump-approval-rating-historic-low-240598

>>9765898
what part of second term did you not understand?

>>9759015
More like the communists kill them

>>9765911
Trump's not going to get a second term so that is moot.

>>9748988
>meanwhile he thinks that the "alt-right" and xenophobia are an horrible threat that will destroy his way of life

>>9766021
>implying

>>9762564
Read it again. He was essentially correct. He isn't talking about voting blocks in congress, he's talking about the GOP being a big tent party.

>>9762889
So literally every president before Obama is racist.

>>9761807
>>9763448
If 2016 taught me anything it's that I should trust polls.

>>9761982
You're probably an actual Dem strategist, aren't you? Good, enjoy losing elections.

The ONLY Dem who could have won in 2016 was Jim Webb and your party hates white males so much you forced him completely out of the party.

>>9762081
Why are you so confident he will be out? Every Democrat I know just KNOWS he's going to be kicked out of office any day now. Any day now! Should be soon! It was going to happen a couple months ago... maybe last month... this week it's gonna happen... the bombshell's coming... this will finally be it...

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>>9762889

We just can't win, can we?

>>9766601
Did you miss the fact that a bombshell actually did just hit? It's amusing to me how Republicans just seem to get cockier and cockier because they don't understand how slow-moving politics is. You seem to think everything happens instantly and if it doesn't then nothing's going to happen. The pace at which we're STILL getting news on Trump, seven months into his term, is practically unheard of. I know it's still going to take a fair amount of time (even Nixon took a full year to resign after his biggest scandal), but you guys seem to think that means you're invincible. And that's great. Keep up the smugness. I'm patient, and I am going to revel in the shitposting when your world comes crumbling down.

>>9766679
Oh you mean like all the bombshells with Comey? And all the other bombshells with Russia? But oh no, THIS is the bombshell now, THIS one, those other ones were all just flukes. And if it isn't this one, it'll surely be the next one!

You sound like the people who believed Hillary was going to jail for her emails.

>>9766679
Meh, many Republicans are already mentally preparing themselves for a possible fall of Trump and anticipating Pence. It's still not going to solve the problems that led to Trump getting the presidency.

>>9766693
I don't know if you noticed, but damn near every outsider that Trump placed into the administration is getting sniped out (by the Resistance, by the Deep State or whatever). Doesn't bode well for him at all.

>>9766693
I'd love to know where you're hearing people who think it's all going to happen instantly. Maybe Republicans are that insane, but a rational person, i.e. a Democrat, knows that ousting a corrupt president takes time and effort. And no, the Hillary thing was a different matter because surprise surprise, there was nothing of values in those emails.

>>9766700
Perhaps not immediately, but we shall keep working at it even after that. In the meantime, as I said, the shitposting will be glorious. There are many, many people who will be unhappy about Trump's removal, even with a Republican president still in power.

>>9766700
There is no real resistance. Trump is becoming more normalized every day. The vast majority of Americans have tuned out from the Russia story. CNN can only run the "BREAKING: RUSSIAN MEDDLING" chyron 24 hours a day for so many months.

>>9766712
You have already declared the man guilty of a crime, only you haven't decided the exact crime yet and you don't have enough evidence to prove anything illegal.

And strange how you feel corruption is suddenly an issue now.

>>9754404
How about because the internet is the future of entertainment and education? Jesus Christ, anon, are you seriously so blind?

>>9766712
You misunderestimate the sheer scale of the problems that you have, don't you? As someone who isn't American, seeing the extent of how your politics have become irreversibly fucked up and polarized (to the extent that one, possibly both, sides are willing to disenfranchize the other to secure victory), it doesn't bode well at all for American ability to survive into the 21st century. The Russians have been using the power they have with tremendous efficiency for now, and the Chinese seem to be lying low, but American patriotism is on life support and both sides of the political spectrum seem to be more willing to tolerate foreign occupiers (whether immigrants or foreign-supported candidates) than each other. Based on my own experience, the only way things like this get solved is via a military coup.

>>9766752
Oh shut up. You know nothing about America.

>>9766757
Something like 80% of all political columnists I read are American. Seeing it from a distance, it looks really fucking bad.

>>9766761
Well no wonder, nobody is going to keep reading the columns if everything sounds fine and dandy. Much of our political system, as are probably most political systems, is dramatized. Trump accelerated this drama of course, but at the end of the day, I would not say we are in a crisis by any means. Some would say we are, but it seems like it's more because they want a crisis rather than us actually being in one.

>>9750088
maybe with Protagoras, the dialogue ended before they got to the good stuff

>>9766733
>YouTube
>education
I don't think so, Tim.

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>>9766871
You think society will stay focused on books for the rest of its evolution through the next hundreds and thousands of years? Get real, anon.

>>9766715
This whole post sounds like delusion peddled by Fox News. Nobody is forgetting about Russia. Fox News is so desperate they're trying to say "Collusion isn't a crime guys!" After denying he hadn't even colluded for months.

Hell, even Shep Smith said ON FOX NEWS that there's a problem. The cracks are showing. And that's not even including the local Fox channels.

>>9766794

I'm not American either, and I've never seen the Excited States quite so excited. I mean you have people rioting on the street for Christ's sake.

>>9766877
And may I add how desperate it sounds that the best you can claim for Trump at this point is that he's being "normalized." Not even that he's innocent of a crime. Because he isn't.

Trump is hiding from press conferences and they even stopped giving press briefings on camera. They're deathly afraid of saying something incriminating. Reminds me of those people who get caught in a crime and their response is to just delete everything.

>>9766880
You're a brit, aren't you?

>>9750238
holy fuck I love this board.

>>9766930
Doctor Who is female now. Brits better not get cocky.

This Trump Jr. thing has been going on for weeks, how hard can you downplay it?

>>9761612
>Which is a shame because many of those that are Fascist were formerly individualist libertarians in good faith.

Shocker: libertarians turn out to be closet authoritarians.

The most important thing we need to understand about trump, the republican party, conservativism and their rhetoric and core identity is that consistency is no longer a necessary qualification for their beliefs. It's not simply that inconsistency is baked into their beliefs, their values, their view of the world and the political solutions they offer regarding them. Look hard enough and we are all full of inconsistencies somewhere. It's that they've completely moved into a territory where they no longer care if they are being inconsistent. It does not matter to them no matter how much we attempt to point out the inconsistencies. They are valuing loyalty to their party, defending their leaders, their shared identity over any need for it to actually make sense, be consistent with previous statements or other beliefs, value it over even any actions which might benefit them. This is team sports, this is identity politics at its worst, this is a rejection of reality in favor of the adoption of support for their guy their side their anything. If it defends one of their own chances are theyre for it even if theyre not. If it attacks the left theyll say it. The things they say and what they really believe deep down might not match up however. These are heated times, and they feel as if their family, their identity is being attacked. And so while privately they might agree sure that thing trump said or did troubles them somewhere, but they'll never let it show. Not in the heat of things right now.

Trump is not only inconsistent but can be so in the same sentence. He can contradict himself and go back again. It does not matter to his supporters. They like that it confounds the media that it confounds the left that it drives us mad. They know he doesnt tell the truth. They just dont fucking care anymore. The right will support him regardless. If it hurts liberals they will support it even if it hurts them. We all know that trump has changed positions so many times we cant even count them whereas one flip flop by another politician can be a career ending offense. They see something else in trump in themselves and thats a shared identity that they will fight for each other. So they'll stick by lying, inonsistent statements, and as we know had hillary clinton or podesta made these comments the right would vehemently be attacking them for it saying see see theyre corrupt. The rules no longer apply. At least not so far as rhetoric goes.

I think our best bet to fight this poisoned rhetoric is to continue to be above it. It cannot be sustained. Point out flaws in logic, make them defend positions, show the inconsistencies, make it moral. More so call them to lower the tone, and remind them of our genuine interest in this country our shared interests in the future and concern and care for them as human beings. The best way forward is put out our own vision with specific policies not just abstract rhetoric like help the poor, close the wage gap, have specific policies listed that do ehat we want. Criticism is fine and necessary now more than ever but so is a vision for the future. The republican party rhetorically is little more than an opposition party. Theyre reactionary and neoliberal in their actions. We can remind people that government can and does actually have a meaningful place in providing for a stable well functioning society.

>>9766587
>And it has to be mentioned that for all the right’s yammering about the election polls being wrong, they actually weren’t. The national average on the day before the election showed Hillary Clinton winning by a 3.5 percent margin, and she won the national popular vote by about 2 percent — easily within the margin of error. People were shocked on election night because they just couldn’t believe that he’d pulled off a weird inside straight in the electoral college, not because the polls had been rigged against him, which seems to be an article of faith among his faithful followers.

>>9755829
It's almost like he and the other youtube fags are modern day sophists which makes his misappropriation of Socrates all the better.

>>9748888
If it's retarded enough it won't take long to prove it has no merit.

>>9767630
>>9767632

Your misunderstanding of the American right is profound. It is not monolithic, except in its disgust regarding the social policies and rhetoric pushed by coastal elites. I myself, and the area I live in in NH is socially moderate, and we voted Trump entirely. Because we hate washington. Right now California is about to institute single payer, sanctuary cities, and environmental laws that are at variance with the federal government. Good on them. We are a nation of states, and they should be able to do what their voters want them to do. The federal government is a jammed, broken piece of machinery, and when Democrats are at the helm they use it to jam social and cultural legislation down our throats. I have no interest in being ruled by washington except for national defense, and the supreme court keeping the states in check. I want to be ruled from Concord, and vote in local plebiscites on every issue.

Trump will destroy the federal government, and sink it in the mire. And the freedom caucus will keep dumping the tar in. May they continue to do so.

>>9748881
Sargon is the form of the sophist. All presentation with no function. There's no use getting mad about him being that way. He couldn't be any other way.

>>9761738
the internet is not real life. they are not mixing with real life culture(s) despite what some may claim. there is no hard evidence for anything that claim. what happens on the internet is on the internet and that is that. to act like /pol/ makes a difference outside the internet is a silly exaggeration meant to embolden themselves and keep their internet culture thriving.

>>9761893
the president is the commander in chief of the military. he is allowed to make those kinds of calls. so long as it is not a declaration of war, congress does not have a constitutional say in who gets bombed and who doesnt. there may be fine print exceptions but i do not know of them.

>>9767771
>Trump will destroy the fed government
lmao this is what civic nationalists actually believe!

>>9750462
They're idiots and sheep that need opinions shoveled into their mouths.

Nice Socratic method thread, guys

the russia narrative has 1 and only 1 purpose: to exonerate the democratic party from having to take any responsibility from their failure and change something

i am not saying trump is not retarded enough to not have had some contact with russia maybe, but if they wanted to impeach him it would have been far easier to do it using some dirty stuff he did with his companies after getting the presidency.

but that wouldn't absolve the democratic party from their failure and force them to reform the party, thus russia

Is it possible to be a leftist but also be anti-immigration?

>>9769010
natbol

>>9769027
But what if I'm not a nazi?

>>9748881
You guys are morons. He is right about most things.

>>9769038
most anti-immigration movements mostly have been constructed around the nation, so it'll be hard to skip the "nat" part in one way or another

there are new identitarian movements in europe that are technically not nationalistic, but they are all right wing as far as i know

>280 posts

The better question is why we are giving them so much attention. This is slave morality

>carl of swindon

these people are basically just grifters with varying levels of actual ideological commitment to the alt-right movement. stefan molyneux is probably more of a true believer, while laci green clearly just realised she could get more clicks by switching sides. but what they all realise is that they have a willing audience of idiots willing to spend money as long as it's virtue signalling against the classic boogeymen e.g. "SJWs", feminists, etc.

>>9750121
So you agree in principle, it's just not your candidate so you're asshurt. Pretty much all that has to be said on the matter.

>>9769010
Yeah, it's called being a Leftist. Mass immigration is, without exception, a neoliberal, Capitalist position.

If you are pro mass immigration you are supporting the dirtiest form of class exploitation that exists, which makes you a bourgeoisie stooge no matter what you claim to believe.

>>9764057
It isn't really blind, the motivations are simply different. I actually sympathize with Sargon's position on Trump because the DNC's behavior in the election was unforgivable. They deserved the backhand they got, and they will either learn from it, or they'll get another one.

Thundercuck is an idiot too, he's got basically no redeeming features when he steps outside of the realm of science. The only youtube personality who knows anything about anything political is Ryan Dawson. Everyone else is painfully uninformed.

>>9769709
thunderf00t applies high school freshman physics to easily debunked crap that isn't interesting. Like creationism and, recently, claims that people can live only through breathing.

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>>9766021
He absolutely will. "Trump's approval ratings" are irrelevant, because they include California and New York.

Go ask people in the Rust Belt how they feel about him. He's still drawing gigantic crowds. He isn't going to lose those states unless he for some reason doesn't deregulate their industries--and of course he will, even if he doesn't the Republicans will.

Another problem is the DNC lineup. Aside from meme candidates like The Rock and probably Zuckerberg, who is there? Hillary will not run again, and if she does she will lose again. Who else? Sanders? Warren? Middle America isn't going to vote for a Socialist Jew or a Socialist Injun, and neither will the Rust Belt.

Understanding US Electoral politics necessitates that you recognize something: Public opinion doesn't matter, only local opinion in swing states. Ten million shrieking Californians are less relevant than ONE upset Pennsylvanian. As partisan polarization increases the odds of flipping stronghold states goes down. As things stand right now, if Trump ran again tomorrow he'd win, hands down. Probably harder than he won in November.

>>9769410
The classic boogieman is Creationists. Stomping on Leftists became popular because Leftists are now worse than Creationists.

>>9769732
>He's still drawing gigantic crowds.
His crowds are paid so you can fuck off with that.

Seriously, what compels you to shill for a shitty rich man?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/gop-committeewoman-appears-to-call-for-john-mccains-death

Anytime someone tries to tell you the liberals are the insane ones.

Fantastic thread, very /lit/ related

>>9770800
Just four posts to go before the next one.

>>9770865
Yeah, can't wate for it

>>9770911
Oh sit, sorry
*wait

>>9770918
Damn, meant to say "shit"
Oh well. Here we are at bump limit now

>>9770921
My bad
Now we're at bump limit

>>9770928
Actually, we aren't. *folds arms and smirks*

>>9770945
*raises paws*
*pushes u*
Uh, BACK THE FUCK OFF?!!

>>9770945
>>9770965
Uuuh, how about you BOTH stfu.
*pushes you apart and flexes abs and cock in the process*

>>9770978
*brushes up against your flexed cock*
0w0 whats this?

>>9769696
And yet I don't believe there is a single prominent voice on the left in America (or even Europe that I can think of) that has anything negative to say about massive third world immigration to our countries.

Quite the opposite seems to be the message, actually. That we have a duty to let them in as a way to repent for the evils of past capitalistic and colonial exploitation. That we owe it to them.

>>9770987
It's your greatest gift and death sentence, anon.

>>9771041
We do.

>>9771162
So you refute >>9769696?

>>9771041
>>9771162
>>9771177
*blocks ur path*
*nuzzles up next to you*
You guys are PAWsome

is this thread dead or alive?

>>9761889
Because the US is a two party state, you fuck.

>>9771319
It's in Schrodinger's box fucking a furry cat apparently.

>>9771319
*hugs u*
Alive of course, silly
*touches ur snout with mine*

>>9771338
The US is a country, you fucking moron.

>>9771438
A-anon
*whips out dick*
U-uh, Hi :) *blushes*

>>9771476
New thread: >>9771450