I don't tend to use this word much, but really I can only

>>9746659
I agree. However, when reading the Iliad, I was quite annoyed by the extensive lists of participants and the endless repetition of titles and descriptions (e.g. white armed Hera, lord of horses Priam, etc) - But I guess this is mainly because it's an oral epic, and this aspect badly translates to written forms.

>>9746659
I love how the sun and morning are personified as pretty women in dresses.

Is there a preferred translation of this?

>>9746659
The violence genuinely shocked me as I didn't expect a few thousand year old poem to be full of detailed portrayals of death (I probably should've expected it though since it is about the last days of a decade long war).

Some of the stuff that caught me off guard was the soldier who is stabbed in the back of the neck with a spear, severing his tongue and causing his teeth to feel and taste the copper in his mouth since that's now where the spearhead is.

Also when Hector smashes a rock into some archer's back causing his arms to go limp and fall over. That sort of paralysis is impossible to come back from and that sort of thing sends shivers down my spine, man.

Plus, a lot of dudes getting hit in the nipples.

>>9746705
Fagles is popular but I'm reading Fitzgerald and he's pretty good too.

>>9746659
> themes such as honour and integrity beautifully developed
Sounds like you are part of the alt-right. Kill yourself racist shitlord.

>>9746715
What are you talking about?

>>9746682
> Dawn and her saffron dress

It always gives me a gentle smile.

>>9746680
greece's early years saw very little writing, mostly only in government and trade
writing seemed foreign to greeks because it was, the writing system that ancient greece used was actually appropriated from the phoenicians of the northern levant, at least a few hundred years after greek civilization was relevant
so it's understandable that the writing comes off a tad choppy, due to writing seen as a necessity of trade and gov't rather than an art form for them

>>9746717
Honor is a patriarchal value that has no place in modern society. Calling it beautiful (or beautifully developed) is tantamount as declaring yourself a white supremacist.

>>9746731
lol

>>9746735
Not an argument.

read The Odyssey twice and love it

can't wait to get this eventually

>>9746680

The Greek for love is Phil and horse is Hippos, so the name Philip means horse lover, and yet to say "horse lover" is much more tedious. Which is why there's a movement among classicists to embrace transliteration, because with only a modest understanding of greek roots, it is possible to get the gist of the name without bogging down the reader in endlessly wordy translations. This has already happened with Chinese, although if you ask me they need to go further and put in the accent marks.

>>9746759
Please do, anon. Some of the other anons are right, it might seem choppy and jarring because there's a lot of references to specific Greek soldiers and their names, but if you have some patience, I think you'd enjoy it immensely.

>>9746705
Pope

>>9746760
>This has already happened with Chinese
You mean with the courtesy names?

>>9746731

This is a bait post, but a lot of people on /lit/ and elsewhere don't really get the Greek concept of honour.

Perhaps their most prized figure was Ulysses, whom the Greeks considered honourable precisely because he had a great deal of cunning/etc (which the Romans would later whitewash out of him, because it did not conform to their idea of honour).

>>9746760
>>9746795
>>9746730
Where did you learn so much about Greece, anons?

>>9746800
My university had a course called "exegesis of Greek sources" in which most of these cultural aspects were explored as we went through archeological findings like inscriptions, artifacts etc. Not sure how it would be called in English precisely.

>>9746659
i genuinely believe anyone who hates The Iliad either hasn't finished it or hasn't even read it and only relies on the same-old same-old criticisms of it to try and back up their claims

>>9746680
The reason was probably for the bard singing the epic to easily fill out the hexameter bar without thinking much. It is weird to read but made perfect sense for the poem in its oral form.

>>9746759
The Illiad is much better than the Odyssey in general. It might seem counterintuitive, but a war story actually resonates much better with modern audiences than a very culture-specific story of one idealized character that boils down to GET IN THE BOAT ODYSSEUS.

>>9746659
its like an anime in book form

>>9746971
Diomedes fighting reads like straight out Dragon Ball

>>9746759
it's very, very different th

>>9747158
in what way?

>>9747734
It's like watching Saving Private Ryan instead of reading Aladdin.

>>9746795
Eh, what. Odysseus not Ulysses (his latin name) was not the embodiment of Arete. There are tons of books from esteemed professors on this subject matter. And I rather take their opinion over yours.

>>9747749
Before we start a flame war, I'd also like to point out that meaning of Arete change dramatically during the hellenistic and roman period. So it's all a matter time period and sources I guess.

>>9747734
there are only two stories: The Odyssey and the Crucifixion
The Iliad is about sacrifice

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why is poseidon such a dick bros

>poseidon when literally anything happens

>>9747820
In the Oddysey, Oddyseus fucks up his son's day and is a general nuisance so I think it's fair.

>>9747839
that one eyed fuck had it coming

>>9747849
You'd be pissed too if some smug asshole blinded your retarded son.

Should I even buy this? Why read a fucking translated poem? Is it only read for pseud credit?

>>9747875
It's a good poem brent

>>9747875
>Not readying Homer
wtf

>>9747875
>Pseud credit for reading a poem children read in highschool.

>>9747875
if this is not bait and your srsly asking this yourself you prolly don't read books anyway so just leave

The Achaeans were a bunch of thugs robbing hardworking people and then writing raps about it. Around danaans never relax!

>>9746971
>>9746983
I thought i was dumb but i also imagined certain soldiers going super saiyan. Hector and Diomedes especially

>>9747875
Most retarded post of the day award goes to...

Last thread on the iliad I saw was filled with hate for it, what the heck

>>9747875
Why would you go out of your way not to read Homer? Sounds like something a pseud would do.

How is Aeneid? Is it basically just ancient fanfiction?

>>9746659
how is the english versions of this? I'm reading a swedish translation (Lagerlöf) and it is pretty tough to get through. I often have to read sentences three times to understand them

>>9748360
are*, fuck

>>9746773
For all its merits, can Pope's version really even be considered a translation?

>>9746967
I feel that the Iliad also has a higher and more modern sense of morality, showing the war as terrible and stupid, with no good guys or bad guys - whereas the Odyssey, on the other hand, glorifies Odysseus' annihilation of the suitors in a very simplistic way. The difference is so stark that it makes me seriously doubt that the two poems were created by the same mind (or group of minds).

>>9748087
You're not wrong.

>>9748389
who cares it's great, just because you read Pope's doesn't mean you can't read another one another time.

>>9748423
High school level reading comprehension. Battles are shown as brutal but the excitement and thrill of violence is present. If anything, the book is well aware death awaits for everyone.

>>9748360
Pretty easy to follow, reading the fizbgerald translation at the moment

>>9746659
Hector is a fucking bro. Fuck Achilles.

>>9749102
>Battles are shown as brutal but the excitement and thrill of violence is present.
Yes, but in a realistic way. It's present but as sort of an animalistic response to necessity, a jolt of adrenaline and a hero narrative of dubious value. And the enemy in the Iliad is never a dehumanized alien being... he is presented always as just another poor fool, another pawn in the games of greater powers.

>>9749566
Patroclos was a bro. Huck Hector.

>>9748423
Of course the suitors are the bad guys. They didn't go to fight in the war but wanted to take the hero's wife for themselves without any merit. I see it them as the presence of injustice in the world. Odysseus got lucky and got help from the gods and reclaimed what was his (note that the years of war meant nothing at all to him in the end). Meanwhile something similar or even worse happened to Agamemnon but he didn't get the outcome he would have deserved.

>>9748423
The logic is consistent though. In war both sides may be honorable, both defenders and aggressors (exacting retribution for previous aggression). It's fair, face to face war, not sniveling treachery (disregarding book ten). Courting another man's wife before he is even confirmed dead, though? Not to mention plundering his property and cowardly ganging up and scheming against his son? Abominable. That's why they die like dogs.

>>9748360
Bättre om du läser Fagles eller Fitzgerald brorsan

>>9747858

tru

>>9749906
>brorsan
I don't speak any Swedish but I'll bet that's the word for bro. Sounds nice too, English should adopt it.

>>9749839
Whether they're good guys or not, the point is that even if you see them as bad guys, they are undeveloped, just bad guy cartoons. In the Iliad all significant characters on all sides are made to seem human, with three-dimensional fully human motivations.

>>9749903
Actually in the Iliad no side is honorable, and if anything the Trojans are more honorable than the Greeks. The Greeks are not honorable - they are willing to kill a bunch of innocent people in order to punish one wealthy guy's crime. Achilles is not honorable - he's vain and selfish. So are the gods. The Trojans are not fully honorable, but they come closer than anyone else. And I don't think this is a modern take on the material - I think it's how the material came across 2500 years ago, too, as a realistic depiction of the ugly reality behind the pretty stories, not as a superficial glorification of war.
As for what he suitors were plotting, it's no worse than a bunch of things that Odysseus did. Remember that one of the very first things Odysseus did after he left Troy was loot and pillage some random innocent town along the way.

>>9750178
Wrong. Study more Ancient greek history.

>>9750178
Please stop projecting your modern values onto the Greeks.

>>9750163
Bad guys from cartoons want to destroy the whole world because fuck why. The suitors, even if we don't know them, have the understandable motivation of wanting to seize power and get laid. As I said, they represent the injustice in the world and the pettiness present in the time of peace, around which nonetheless tragedies as big as those from war happen.

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>>9748360
Lagerlöfs översättning är över genomsnitt jämfört med de flesta översättningar, men Fagles eller Pope är bättre ändå.

>>9750178
The Trojans were Greeks too, dude. They were coastal Anatolian Greeks. Same language, same religion. Also, the Trojans are willing to wage war, letting their own citizens suffer because "one wealthy guy" - the pussy ass faggot Paris - can enjoy his contraband piece of ass every night.

>>9750216
Both the Iliad and the Odyssey present two sides in conflict, both of which are basically flawed people, not heroes. In the Iliad, the flawed selfish Greeks fight against the flawed selfish Trojans. In the Odyssey, the flawed selfish Odysseus fights against the flawed selfish suitors. However, the Iliad presents the victory of one over the other as a bloody, ugly tragedy. The Odyssey presents it as the culmination of a simplistic action movie-style hero narrative.

>>9750211
I don't think I am. One of the things that makes the Iliad great is that it stands head and shoulders above most content of its time in the moral sphere as well as the artistic. Nobody comes off looking good in it. The gods are cruel and selfish. The Greeks are basically just one step above pirates. Paris is a coward. Hector makes poor decisions. Priam is incompetent. It is psychologically realistic and avoids simplistic hero narratives.

>>9750309
Yes but the suitors are more flawed as they just sat on their asses and didn't go to war and now want to steal from their leader.

Also, the way you are reading these books is very modern. The main attraction in reading ancient texts is that you can wonder what they meant to the people that read them back then. You know they adored both the Iliad and the Odyssey, so what you and others in this thread say about the morality of the characters is actually a glimpse into the way of thinking of people from 3000 years ago, not a flaw in the way the epics were constructed

>>9749906
>>9750236
Ni menar att den är trevligare på engelska ändå? Tänkte att det skulle vara skönare att köra på svenska men ni verkar ju vara överens

>>9749925
This is the nicest post I've seen in a couple of days, you make sure to have a nice day

>>9746659

Don't forget based Hera totally putting Zeus in his place

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>>9750533
Här är en jämförelse av ett ganska berömt passage, först från Fagles, och sen från Lagerlöf:

"Down the Trojans came like a squall of brawling gale-winds
blasting down with the Father’s thunder, loosed on earth
and a superhuman uproar bursts as they pound the heavy seas,
the giant breakers seething, battle lines of them roaring,
shoulders rearing, exploding foam, waves in the vanguard,
waves rolling in from the rear. So on the Trojans came,
waves in the vanguard, waves from the rear"

"Samtliga störtade fram likt orkanen av rasande vindar,
som under tordönsbrak ifrån Zeus nedstormar till jorden
och uppå havet slår tjutande ner, och otaliga vågor
rulla då sjudande fram över rymden av brusande djupet,
välvda, med skumvit kam, de ena bakefter de andra:
likaså troerna tätt, de ena bakefter de andra"

Jag föredrar definitivt Fagles tolkning här. Kraften, repetitionen, och metaforen till havet som finns i orginal grekiskan är mycket starkare, även om Lagerlöf också försöker fånga samma känsla, och som sagt, jämfört med de flesta översättningar är han ganska duktig, men inte lika duktig som Fagles.

>>9750599
En liten sak att tillägga, Fagles är mycket bättre på att härma ljuden som finns i orginalet.

Just denna linje "battle lines of them roaring,
shoulders rearing, exploding foam" lägger fokus på "roaring", "rearing", och "foam", det nästan skummar i munnen när man läser det högt. Lagerlöf missar detta helt, och de flesta översättningar missar detta helt. Det är definitivt ett av mina favoritstycken från Iliaden.

>>9748389
Yes. In what way is it not a translation?

>>9748087
>The Achaeans were a bunch of thugs robbing hardworking people and then writing raps about it

My sides have reached Olympus

Hector saying goodbye to his family is the best scene in all literature. Completely wrecked me first time I read it, just wasn't expecting those feels, completely timeless.

>>9750599
>>9750615
Du har en bra poäng, ska beställa Fagles från bokbörsen. Tycker att flytet i läsningen av Fagles går behagligare också. Tack för citatet!

>>9746705
Lattimore

>>9750329
>I don't think I am
You really are, though. Read any analysis of Greek mythology.

>>9747875
Learn Greek and read it in the original idiot

>>9749790
>Patroclos
Who does this? It's Patroclus or Patroklos

>>9748423
t. Cuckoo. Even if you don't think it's morally justified, surely you must see how Odysseus has no problem slaying these men. After 20 years away from his wife and son he returns to Ithaca only to find a bunch of perverts in his house trying to take his home and family from him.

>>9748423
The Odyssey was told around the camp fire during festivals around women and children. The Iliad was told to warriors to get their blood pumping and their will fortified on the eve of battle.

>>9751770
Wrong. Both were told infact together with the other lost pieces from the epic cycle.

While the Homeric poems (the Iliad in particular) were not necessarily revered scripture of the ancient Greeks, they were most certainly seen as guides that were important to the intellectual understanding of any educated Greek citizen. This is evidenced by the fact that in the late fifth century BC, "it was the sign of a man of standing to be able to recite the Iliad and Odyssey by heart."[52] Moreover, it can be argued that the warfare shown in the Iliad, and the way in which it was depicted, had a profound and very traceable effect on Greek warfare in general. In particular, the effect of epic literature can be broken down into three categories: tactics, ideology, and the mindset of commanders. In order to discern these effects, it is necessary to take a look at a few examples from each of these categories.

>>9747749
kek, no
Odysseus was the hero of the tale, and got a second tale, too! Odysseus is the Greek embodiment of 'the successful man', 'the hero'.
Achilles and Hector were chumps in greek eyes: they died. Odysseus won. Odysseus is the epitome of the Greek Hero.

>>9751801
In regards to tactics, isn't more of a celebration/exploration of Greek ingenuity and craftiness rather than hard tactical lessons? I know the Homeric poems have issues with accuracy in regards to weapons, materials, and other more concrete details. They should be viewed as morality stories saying "to be Greek is to be crafty/resourceful/observant" rather than "Copy these tactics or similar ones to win battles"

>>9751828
There are other epics we've lost to time about other heros. He's not the star of the show but one of the many celebrated heroes of Greek mythology with his own poem. That's a grossly modern and uniformed view of these stories.

American professor of Classics at Harvard University, specializing in Homer and archaic Greek poetry, director of the Center for Hellenic Studies, writes a subject matter on the book on this very topic called The Best of the Achaeans. I'll take his words over yours to be honest.

https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/5439

The Odyssey can afford to let Odysseus put the question in this form, if indeed the narrative is confident of his heroic destiny in the Odyssey. Since his prime heroic act in the Odyssey is the killing of Achaeans who are pursuing his wife, Penelope is truly the key to his kléos. Penelope defines the heroic identity of Odysseus. Significantly, the expression Ἀχαιῶν ὅς τις ἄριστος ‘whoever is best [áristos] of the Achaeans’ is restricted in the Odyssey to the single question: “who will marry Penelope?” (Odyssey xvi 76, xviii 289, xix 528; cf. xx 335). The Homeric audience is being conditioned for the aristeíā of Odysseus.

From the page I linked. Basically Odysseus becomes the best of Achaeans in the Odyssey because he kills the suitor and frees his wife and gets his Nostos. His home!

Because he is already denied his Kleos. Eternal glory which was taken by Achilles. This is something that they touch upon in the Odyssey.

. In the First Nekuia of Odyssey xi, when Odysseus meets the shade of Achilles, he addresses Achilles as ‘best of the Achaeans’ (φέρτατ᾽ Ἀχαιῶν: Odyssey xi 478). But the Odyssey then has Achilles saying that he would rather be alive and the lowliest of serfs than to be dead and the kingliest of shades (Odyssey xi 489–491). As Klaus Rüter sees it, [37] Achilles seems ready to trade places with Odysseus, whose safe homecoming will be marked by a painful transitional phase at the very lowest levels of the social order. The words of Achilles in the First Nekuia are ironically conjuring up the glorious days of the Iliad when he had said:
ὤλετο μέν μοι νόστος, ἀτὰρ kλέος ἄφθιτον ἔσται I have lost a safe return home [ nóstos ], but I will have unfailing glory [ kléos ].

This is also why it was such an honor to die for your society in ancient greece. Achilles did it.

More to say, these two books together are so fucking deep. It's basically about finding your purpose in life. Either you find glory or you root a home. This is basically why Achilles is so "angry" the entire iliad. He is afraid that he wont get his Kleos and that Agamemnon is trying to steal it. He considers the entirety of going back home to his Nestos, but realizes that when Patroklus dies, there is no home to be found. Therefore he just goes on a rampage, a rampage worthy the history books.

>>9749566
Although Hector is amazing , I think it's unfair to hate on Achilles. He had dickhead Agamemnon busting his balls. I think I'd be just as pissed.

Iliad or Odyssey ?

>>9752158
Iliad

>>9750538
Yeah,Hera is an underrated greek goddess imo, able to persuade zeus passive aggressively rather than threaten like blockhead zeus does

>>9752158
You're in an Iliad thread, guy.

So glad we have an Iliad thread dedicated to a good discussion as well as people expressing their love for it here. I see The Iliad on /lit/ usually when people express their disdain for it - usually because of the ship catalogue and also all of the Greek soldiers, their fathers and their hometown names. It's very refreshing to see people expressing their appreciation for this poem.

>>9752158
Iliad because Achilles is way more interesting than Odysseus

I have the samuel butler translation of the Iliad and Odyssey, is it worth buying a different translation or does it not really matter? First time with the greeks

I have the W.H.D. Rouse translation of the Iliad. Same question.

>>9746659
>Hector is a hardcore motherfucker
>he spends his final moments running around in circles around his city to escape Achilles

>>9752138
Achilles is a wanker. His friends die while he sulks in a boat. He desecrates Hector's body. Do we like ISIS now too?

>>9750515
>Yes but the suitors are more flawed as they just sat on their asses and didn't go to war and now want to steal from their leader.
But like I've said before, Odysseus literally attacks some random innocent town and pillages it like a Viking*. He isn't any more noble than the suitors unless you view his actions through an almost animal-level morality. Surely the Greeks were a bit more advanced than that.
>Also, the way you are reading these books is very modern. The main attraction in reading ancient texts is that you can wonder what they meant to the people that read them back then.
I'd rather give the Iliad that respect of viewing it through modern eyes rather than as an ancient curiosity that must be contextualized in its time. Then it shines remarkably as a text that can have deep meaning to people of 500 BC and also to people of 2017 AD.
*I'm referring to the following episode:
"Now, however, I will tell you of the many hazardous adventures which by Jove's will I met with on my return from Troy. When I had set sail thence the wind took me first to Ismarus, which is the city of the Cicons. There I sacked the town and put the people to the sword. We took their wives and also much booty, which we divided equitably amongst us, so that none might have reason to complain."

>>9752838
>>9752856
you underestimate the influence of christianity on "modern" morality. identifying with the universal victim would be nonsense without the cultural background to support it.

How is the translation by E.V. Rieu? My mum has an old copy of this, I'm not sure if I should read it or find a better translation

Anyone read the Stephen Mitchell translation?

I have his rendition of the Book of Job, which is fantastic, but I'd like some input before I pull the trigger.

>>9752883
>identifying with the universal victim would be nonsense without the cultural background to support it
Maybe, but even if so I think it's been a part of all or almost all cultures from long before the Iliad was composed. The Iliad is full of poignant passages about the suffering of parents whose son has died. Even the Odyssey has that sad part about Odysseus' dog.
I'm not trying to claim that the Iliad should only be interpreted through modern morality. My main points are that:
1) The Iliad is an anti-war poem much more than it is a pro-war poem. Its morality is not some berserker Klingon chest-beating morality, but something much more humanistic.
2) The Iliad is morally more advanced and modern than the Odyssey.

>>9752856
Hold the fucking phone. The suitors abuse the very Greek tradition of unending kindness to guests. In Greece, it's thought this cultural institution arose due to the hostile nature of the world and the ability to go to any town and find shelter for the night as a guest was a literal godsend as Zeus is known as the protector of guests. The system was reciprocal because the host only cared for the guest under the assumption the guest would do the same for the host. The suitors clearly have no intention of returning the favor and abuse the system, a spit in the face to Greek cultural values. We see time and time again Telemachus and Odysseus relying on the Host/Guest institution as guests and then promising to reciprocate later.

As for the pirating, the introduction to Fagles' translation by Bernard Knox covers it. "It is obviosly an action not unusual in its time and place; one of Odysseys' epithets is in fact ptoliporthos, "sacker of cities." Nestor at Plyos politely asks Telemachus and Pisistratus if they are "Out on a trading spree or roving the waves like pirates, / sea-wolves raiding at will, who risk their lives / to pluder other men?"" Knox also quotes Thucydides "this occupation was held to be honarable rather than disgraceful. This is proved... by the testimony of ancient poets, in whose versus newly arrived visitors are always asked whether they are pirates, a question that implies no disapproval of such an occupation on the part of either those who answer with a disclaimer or those who ask for the information."

>>9752938
My whole point is that the Iliad is morally on a higher and more realistic, and more humanistic level, than the Odyssey. You're just lending support to that point. A morality that views sacking random cities as ok but eating up one guy's food and trying to cuck him as a horrible crime is inferior to the more nuanced depiction of blame, good, and wickedness that can be found in the Iliad.

>>9750178
>Acshully

You're forcing your moral values into the book. In the poem, the Greeks are honorable. There is nothing in the poem to indicate otherwise.

>>9752158
Iliad for chads
Odyssey for betas

>>9746659
>Zeus is a cunt
>goes on epic page-long tirades about how he will destroy whoever he is currently pissed at
>in one sentence takes it all back as a jkjk
the illiad is worth reading for these parts alone. hilarious.

>>9752856 #
>"Now, however, I will tell you of the many hazardous adventures which by Jove's will I met with on my return from Troy. When I had set sail thence the wind took me first to Ismarus, which is the city of the Cicons. There I sacked the town and put the people to the sword. We took their wives and also much booty, which we divided equitably amongst us, so that none might have reason to complain."

When I first read this passage it also made me question the morality of the Hellenics. However, I'm not sure how much Odysseus is to blame for this. In my eyes he's quite the tragical character anyway. Firstly he didn't even want to be part of this shit anyway. He even went do far and became a tranny in the process.

Now while I also prefer the Iliad over the Odyssey, I think the insights into Odysseus' character and his surroundings are very touching. As I mentioned before his story is a tragic one, his very name stands for the one who gives and receives pain at the same time. In episodes like the one with Ajax going mad after losing the vote for Achilles' armor and consequently commits sudoku after slaughtering an army of Hellenic sheeps it is revealed Odysseus brings bad luck to his friends and those who help him. Another example would be the polis that helped Odysseus and received a massive stone blocking off their harbor and were pretty much doomed as punishment for their kindness.

Coming back to the raiding: Keep in mind that this supposedly was a war that was in its 9th (10th?) year. Accounts like those of Thucydides tell us that wars were extremely expensive, particularly paying your soldiers was a highly sensitive matter. To keep them happy you had to go raid enemy cities and take booty, including women. Now I'm not sure if these cities were in an alliance or in anyway related to Troy, but I see these raids as a sort of necessity at this point.

>>9753218
What about the Aeneid?

>>9753070
There is nothing in the poem to indicate that the Greeks are honorable any more than there is to indicate that they are not honorable.

>>9746680
I don't mind the repetitions and obscure Greek name references. Greek names have a great phonetic rhythm and the repetitions also hold a good sense of rhythm which I would imagine would be wonderful to hear sang in a familiar melody.

>>9752662
OP probably hasn't reached that point yet, anon.

>>9753245
Agreed, Zeus is a mega cunt but he's also a little sissy bitch when he's called out on it.

>>9753314
for pizza parties only

>>9753314
I wish it was discussed here more to be honest anon

>>9752672
Maybe if Agamemnon wasn't a larger wanker and showed appreciation for the best of his soldiers rather than insult and deface Achilles' honour in front of everyone, maybe Agamemnon wouldn't get into deep shit like he did.

Desecrating Hector's body is a low blow though, I will admit that, especially after Hector's speech asking for a respectable foe and that if he or they died, the body would be returned intact.