Was Odysseus a "Mary Sue"? Are stories with them

>>9726741
>Was Odysseus a "Mary Sue"?

No because he has clear flaws which are convincingly atoned for by the end.

>>9726751
Such as? As far as I see it these "flaws" never hinder him down, they mostly affect the people around him but not him

>>9726764
psychological anguish (for a few seconds)

he was punished!

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Is Jesus a Mary Sue?

>>9726879
To Chrristians yeah

>>9726741
Better question: who cares?

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Is the Ubermensch a Mary Sue?

>>9726891
Are you saying that its fine to include them in novels?

>>9726764

His vanity. He brags after killing the cyclops and revealing his identity is exactly why he can't go home for the longest time. When he finally returns he has to learn humility and conceal himself as a bum.

>>9726893
No. I'd love to be, however. For a while it would be 'fun' - until I'd be challenged to challenge myself. Then I'd create a nemesis.

>>9726904
But his excessive pride isn't exactly a negative character trait is it? The Greeks valued kleos which was is in somewhat of the same vein as pride. Do they still count as a mary sue if their perfection gets them into trouble? I don't know.

>>9726764
pirde (when he blinds the cyclops and tells him his name, which doesn't end very well for anyone)
and anger issues

>>9726940
>The Greeks valued kleos which
has nothing to do with being retarded with Polyphemus and the taunting thereof.

Odysseus let his pride get in the way of his very legendary metis and allowed Polyphemus to curse his name.

>>9726992
depends if you see pride as a good or bad character trait. Did the Greeks treat it as a lesson of warning not to be too boastful?

>>9727032
>Did the Greeks treat it as a lesson of warning not to be too boastful?
ofc

deeds not words

>>9727031
Isn't that why the other gods respected him though? Especially Athena?

Everything Homer wrote actually happened, so he was just a real hardcore dude.

>>9726764
Arrogance (Lotus Eaters)
Pride (Polyphemus)
Lust (Circe)
Burden of Command (Scylla and Charybdis) though its not what we'd consider a flaw today
He also displeases the Gods on more than one occasion, most notably Poseidon, which is again more a Greek cultural thing.

While Homer was chiefly concerned with reconciling ideas about Hellenic cultural identity and relationship with authority in The Illiad, in The Odyssey he's narrowing his focus down to the development and examination of a particular, Heroic individual. Were Odysseus without flaws, the story would have never happened and also would lack its central theme, the individual's great journey.

>>9727035
Athena is the sponsor of all important Greek heroes save Achilles, although thats because he obviously had other high level connections.

>>9726904
I think the stronger proof he has fucked up is what happens in Ithica. Everyone is trying to fuck his wife and his Athena has to intervene to get Telemachus out before he gets stabbed in the back.

He has failed as a King first and foremost, and he has to commit the most brutal massacre in fiction to put it right.

Definitely no Mary Sue.

Nobody mentioning Odysseus running away like a terrified girl instead of helping Nestor in Iliad?

>>9726741
He fucked his mom of course he wasn't perfect