Why do people romanticize the working class? They're largely

A lot of intellectuals would rather be as ignorant as a peasant farmer but with an unshakable faith in God.

>>9707370
He was a big fan of the revolution's ideals but, like a lot of people, was sore about it being a sham.
He studied economics and found capitalism to be unsustainable and detrimental. And here it is on it's last legs. But so is society as we know it.

Bourgeoisie authoritarians keep failing the revolution, and the cappies keep those working class dumb and pacified. So who's romanticizing? We either make good on the revolutionary ideal or we face extinction.

>>9707395
it's so odd how even when leftists give up the imminence of the revolution they still retain the apocalyptic end-of-history attitude

stop immanentizing the eschaton

>>9707395
butterfly if you try telling flyover state yokels this post you will be beaten and left on the fence like matthew shephard

they sincerely hate your guts for not being a straight white americhristian

>>9707370
>Why do people romanticize the working class?
Because most people are in the working class, and thus romanticize it. And the wealthy people that romanticize it still mostly come from working class upbringing (like Rowling, for example). All of us old money fags see the obvious problem with relying on the working class to make any sort of decision. It's not that they're largely unintelligent, it's the fact that they are ridiculously uninformed when it comes to things like politics: the average working class person only absorbs the biased information they see on popular media and really has no idea what's going on, which leads to horrible decision making. Of course this isn't true for all, but it is generally the case. Working class people really just don't have the time to become informed and educated on things that don't relate to their job, and that's fine. We don't need the masses to make decisions, we need an educated/elite body that can.

>and religious
If you think this you're actually one of the plebs that you're arguing against, though. The elite is majority religious, and always will be. You find most of the athiests in the working class.

>>9707403
It's a defense mechanism because they know deep down capitalism is cyclical entropy and designed to stay on a crumbling auto pilot

there will never be a successful revolution

>>9707370

Because regardless the subjective illusions obscuring the class consciousness of each individual worker, as a class they objectively hold the power to bring society to its knees.

>>9707406
>implying we're not going straight for automated luxury lgbtquvwxyz communism soon
Fuck off porky.

>>9707405
>Bill Gates is an atheist.
>Mark Zuckerberg is an atheist.

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>>9707405
>implying religious choice impacts your ability to gather wealth

>>9707370
>Why do people romanticize the working class?
Did.

Anyway, it was just a particular case of Christian idolatry of the poor, nothing you should dedicate too much grey matter about.

>>9707411
Most Jews are atheists

>>9707403
I was raised Christian and they went on and on about the apocalypse. Trust me, I'd rather the Earth were twice its size and the environment was large enough to easily recover from this onslaught, but scientists are making some disturbing forecasts. I try to ignore them now that its gotten so bad.
>>9707406
Things are changing, boyo. Anything is possible.
>>9707404
And?

>>9707411
>>Bill Gates is an atheist.
Sends his kids to church.
>>Mark Zuckerberg is an atheist.
And Jewish.

>>9707423
>Things are changing, boyo. Anything is possible.
Except communism.

>>9707419
Being religious does make it much easier to gather wealth because you are less likely to be a degenerate idiot who spends all his money on alcohol and looking for women and more likely to get married and settle down.

>>9707424
>Sends his kids to church.
Gonna need a source on this.

>And Jewish.
Born jewish, become an atheist later in life.

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>>9707431
Do you have a single fact to back that up?

>>9707430
>"Except my perceptions of what communism is"

There's dozens of different shades of the socialist base. Though I can only recommend the anti-capitalist varieties

>>9707431
>religious people aren't degenerates

Circumcision
Daughter brides
Pedophilia
Repressed homosexuality
Funneling funds
Fake tax breaks
Manipulation of the poor
Purging of radical thought

>>9707432
>>Gonna need a source on this.
>The moral systems of religion, I think, are superimportant. We've raised our kids in a religious way; they've gone to the Catholic church that Melinda goes to and I participate in.

>Born jewish, become an atheist later in life.
>>a commenter asked him: Aren’t you an atheist?
>>Zuckerberg identified himself as an atheist for years, but on Facebook on Christmas he wrote back: “No. I was raised Jewish and then I went through a period where I questioned things, but now I believe religion is very important.”

>>9707432
>become an atheist later in life
That's what they want you to believe.
As they say, a baptized Jew is like a cured horse or a pardoned thief.

>>9707441
how could a variety of socialism not be anti-capitalism and still be socialism??
even milquetoast demsoc is slightly worse for business

>>9707450
He's saying that because he's running for president next election cycle, fool.

>>9707435
It's a fact that wealthier people tend to be more religious and moral than working class people

>>9707450
>>9707460
ugh fucking technocrat would-be demagogue
unwilling to commit to anything at all for fear of alienating potential ad clicks
I guess it's just as disingenuous as a CEO publically supporting some cause though

>>9707403
>implying capital doesn't have theological and eschatological implications

transhumanism has already been incorporated into the quasi religious ideology of the ruling classes, see the ted talk circuit for example. It's funny how the reasonable educated liberals who dismiss even mild social democratic reforms as unfeasible and utopian are nonetheless convinced tech corps are gonna make everyone immortal. The 'singularity' is the apotheosis of technics and instrumental rationality. Nick Land is probably the last honest liberal on earth, though he misses something very important about Capital, that is, its infinite banality.

>>9707405
and who controls the popular media? bourgeoisie class interests stupid. midbrow outlets like TED, NYT, WaPo, the Atlantic, the economist are also mechanisms of ideological reproduction, probably even more mendacious than their downmarket equivalents. They are designed to trick you into thinking your interests are one with the elites'. in order to achieve this, they flatter your petty bourgeoisie ego- you are a rational centrist, you are above it all, you can count yourself amongst the educated classes- it's all bullshit of course

>>9707450
Every atheist praises religion to avoid confrotations.
I do that quite alot.
Since i've read the holy bible, i get along very well with christians.
But believe me, the backlash an atheist can face when in a lower social status is terrible.
Specially if he doesn't know how to behave.

>>9707408
>as a class they objectively hold the power to bring society to its knees.

But why would they want to? Socialists/communists have this weird belief that working class people want to rule over society and make crucial decisions. They don't. Most people just want to live their life, go home and watch football and have beer. They don't want to organize and hold town hall meetings and debate on how money and resources are distributed. I'm not saying they're too dumb to do that - I'm saying they're too smart to desire such banality. The working class would enjoy higher wages, more time off, and benefits, but in general they want to keep their cultural traditions and ways of living. They are often turned off by most socialist ideology because most socialists criticize everything about society and want to totally dismantle it....Working class people often don't share that viewpoint.

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>>9707471
Source? Examples? C

>>9707450
That doesn't make him a theist. I'm talking about Gates.

>>9707480
>Examples?
Why would you specifically request anecdotes?

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>>9707456
The Social democrats and progressives practice a mild sort of socialism.
When capitalism collapses the rightwingers claim its the socialist factors doing it.
It's a dumb game and we should stop playing it.

>>9707405
>and always will be
You come from the future?

>>9707484
>When capitalism collapses
That never happened though.

>>9707370
>Why do people romanticize the working class?

Nobody romanticizes the working class anymore. They are arguably the most hated group in Western nations. If a society isn't progressive enough, or if the wrong candidate wins, it is always blamed on the uneducated, working class rednecks. The primary reason why people support strong amounts of immigration, is to dismantle the working class's influence as a voting bloc and make them irrelevant.

>>9707419
It does, though. Having the self discipline to overcome petty desires helps in the business/academic world, believe it or not. And elite families have been religious for many generations. If I even spoke out in blasphemy once in my house growing up I would have been disowned on the spot, and rightfully so.

The growing athiest movement is also largely working class people lashing out at religious elite, in some attempt to appear intellectual and sophisticated. It becomes apparent when you take a step back and actually look at the big picture.

>>9707370
>Why do people romanticize the working class?
because despiting all of that you have said that working class became aware of that at some point and tried to claim opportunities for a better future. Off course, not all working class people are aware, some of them are fucking sheeps.

>>9707483
Because you're pulling this out of the thin air.
And maybe, just maybe i wanna know where did you get that idea.

I just wanna know where people get the idea that being religious increases the odd of being wealthier and more intelligent in relative numbers.

>>9707405
Rowling is the epitome of neoliberalism. It's not about romanticising the working class. Marx actually warned against doing that in his critique of the Gotha program.

>Labor is not the source of all wealth. Nature is just as much the source of use values (and it is surely of such that material wealth consists!) as labor, which itself is only the manifestation of a force of nature,
human labor power. the above phrase is to be found in all children's primers and is correct insofar as it is
implied that labor is performed with the appurtenant subjects and instruments. But a socialist program
cannot allow such bourgeois phrases to pass over in silence the conditions that lone give them meaning.
And insofar as man from the beginning behaves toward nature, the primary source of all instruments and
subjects of labor, as an owner, treats her as belonging to him, his labor becomes the source of use values,
therefore also of wealth. The bourgeois have very good grounds for falsely ascribing supernatural
creative power to labor; since precisely from the fact that labor depends on nature it follows that the man
who possesses no other property than his labor power must, in all conditions of society and culture, be
the slave of other men who have made themselves the owners of the material conditions of labor. He can
only work with their permission, hence live only with their permission.


The political economy is an elaborate game that presents itself as objective reality. If we lived in a society were everything was determined through poker games, you would accuse the people who are against the tyranny of the poker economy of being unfamiliar with the rules of poker.

>>9707471
>wealthy people tend to be moral

Check yourself before you wreck yourself

>>9707496
I'm not that guy. I'm just saying that anyone can come up with isolated examples; you should be requesting statistical research.

I'm pretty sure that religiosity and socioeconomic class are negatively correlated but the US is probably a weird exception.

>>9707511
*weird in that I suspect wealthier Americans aren't less religious (the middle class probably is though)

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>>9707488
Oh baby boy.
Tell that to people who lived through the 1930s and who are feeling the pinch of the 2008 crash
Let alone all the recessions.

>>9707528
If capitalism has collapsed as you say, then why aren't we living under communism?

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>>9707531
What in the hell are you reading? Anything?

>>9707488
it's already happening. the tech bubble, the real estate bubble, the ecological crisis and the imminent destruction of the liberal world order. The abstractions of the political economy are phantoms that occlude the true, brutal nature of our society, which is in the last instance a tyranny of property holders based on the crude exercise of power. We live under a permanent state of exception.

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>>9707538
>>9707528
The great depression was a derivative of government intervention, not some flaw in the free market.

>>9707492
>Having the self discipline to overcome petty desires helps in the business/academic world
You sure it can't be taught by an average working class family?

>And elite families have been religious for many generations.
Source and examples.
> If I even spoke out in blasphemy once in my house growing up I would have been disowned on the spot, and rightfully so.
Man, that's tough life isn't it?
>The growing athiest movement is also largely working class people lashing out at religious elite, in some attempt to appear intellectual and sophisticated. It becomes apparent when you take a step back and actually look at the big picture.
Sounds like a nice reverse Illuminati plot.
Also, source (which will be difficult to gather i assume) to back that up.
And, atheism is not about taking revenge on god or nihilism, hedonism, w/e.

>>9707511
Here's a problem: when they're making these broad assumptions, they need statistics to back that up, otherwise they just look like fools trying to speculating what's happening.

It's true religiosity and socieconomic status are negatively correlated, but that's not because being an atheist makes you smarter, it's more of the citizens are being provided a comfortable life without a normalization agenda and are giving some time to think about it and coming to their own conclusions.

Want a counterexample of this?
Vietnam is one of the most atheist countries, yet, largely undeveloped.
that's because religion was outlawed, and it's very likely that citizens still practice small cults.

Religion brings comfort in dark times, by make certain promises. So they get attached to that idea.

However, it's a hollow comfort.

>>9707528
>>9707531
>>9707538
this is a verbal dispute about whether collapse has to be total and final, isn't it?

>>9707406
socialism or barbarism. Capital is a singularly jealous god. We will destroy capital or capital will destroy us.

>>9707370
Is this a club of rich fellows, who complaining about the working class?
Are you the Bourgeoisie authoritarians ?

>>9707559
The 'free market' has always been a product of state intervention. Private property and alienated labor are enforced by the state. Weren't striking workers suppressed by machine gun fire? the meagre concessions of the welfare state were the result of class struggle, of a bourgeoisie that felt genuinely threatened by proletarian mobilisation. Your ideal free market could only function in a world inhabited only by commodities, a world with no humans in it.

>>9707528
financial sectors add no value

fuck em

>>9707431
You're not wrong

>>9707528
Damn, roastie. You're definitely b8ing. Just go back to tumblr.

>>9707613
the bourgeoisie create nothing of value

fuck em

>>9707654
the bourgeoisie are the reason you're not a peasant under feudalism right now

>>9707606
Striking workers were surpresseed because they would try to prevent work from occurring with scabs. I'm no corporate toady, nor anti-worker, but the idea that low-caste people and proles could break the collective action dilemma that inhabits their relationship with the capitalists is ridiculous. Workers have no teeth without the tacit or explicit support of a body with a comparative advantage in violence.

The change you want will come through democracy or not at all. That's my opinion.

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>>9707559
Statism and capitalism coexist. There's no separating them.

>>9707563
I never said anything about it ending upon collapsing. Idiots still pick it up and start playing the dirty game again. Just a typical troll arguing.

>>9707662
>Implying the peasants and working class didn't put their lives on the lines to aid the revolution
Typical bourgie scumbo

>>9707471
>gets asked "Do you have a source for that?"
>Tautologically repeats the first claim

wew

>>9707670
it's weird how, considering how workers have failed to solve the collective action problem, capitalists seem to have found a solution to their own collective action problem in the form of the welfare state, which makes living and working collections tolerable enough to perpetually forestall a revolution at the expense of the total maximization of profit

>>9707675

>I never said anything about it ending upon collapsing.
no, but your interlocutor clearly thought that's what "collapse" means

>socialists want to diminish the power of the rich capitalists and bourgeoisie class
>they look to the working class to turn on the rich and restructure society
>but the working class stupidly goes conservative and votes for stuff like trump and brexit
>socialists realize the only chance they have is to import voters from the third world

>>9707694

>socialist are tragic misunderstood good guys who just want to 'muh helpin people'

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>>9707528
Lol, that faggy name makes me think you're some overweight partimer housewife that has random ugly diy decor slathered over her house. Pic related.

>>9707670
bourgeoisie democracy has always been a sham, though. The bourgeoisie order was a product of revolutionary violence, primitive accumulation cannot be anything but violent and the institution of private property can only be maintained through the tacit or explicit support of a body with a comparative advantage in violence. Apologists of the existing order deny the violence inherent in the system.

>>9707682

They don't need to "perpetually" forestall a revolution, they only need to forestall it long enough until they have moved all their assets to somewhere overseas where it's legal to exploit slave labor.

>>9707694
>importing conservatives to outvote conservatives
what did they mean by this?

>>9707710
they don't need to, but they clearly have
the revolution isn't coming to the west, anon
I'm so sorry

Made a thread for yall
8ch
.net/leftypol/res/1828996.html

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>>9707395
>capitalism is unsustainable, it's about to collapse
>150 years
>we're literally only getting wealthier and wealthier

stop taking this dead jew seriously.

>>9707708

Democracy has always been a sham. The only reason the Founding Fathers supported democracy was because it allowed them to seize power from the (actually very benign) monarchy. They didn't seriously believe that everyone citizen should have a say in how society is run. It was just the most politically convenient thing to support at the time.

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>>9707707
The name came from a Zalgo thread in /b/ a number of years ago. I keep rather fit from self propelled transportation. I am a childless lesbian and my decor is nothing like that, thanks.

>>9707682
I'm trying to remember what the academic term for the race-to-the-bottom theory is vis-a-vis interstate competition, but >>9707710 somewhat encapsulates it.
The capitalists can(with varying degrees depending on the fungibility of their assets) use the threat of capital flight to discipline the political environment and the proletariat.

>>9707718

It's a short-term strategy.
Their plan was to import a bunch of minorities who would group together under the "fuck whitey" banner. Blame everything on whites, promise solutions once whites are outnumbered. The social conservatism stuff is all just memewars, actual capitalists don't give a fuck if arabs don't like fag marriage or whatever, they just need slaves who are used to low standards to displace middle-class white strivers who actually believe in the democracy meme.
It's basically the exact inverse of what the right-wingers do.

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>>9707733

>>9707730
>we're literally only getting wealthier and wealthier
Are you genuinely this dumb? Are you really unaware of the income disparity?

Do you even know about automation? If people can't get work how are they going to keep alive? The toxicity of our environment seems almost a planed tactic to eliminate the excessive amounts of humans.

>>9707694
that's not how you spell 'liberals'. New Labour and the democrats are parties of cosmopolitan finance and the managerial classes. Hillary's campaign focused on two fronts: 1) moderate republicans in wealthy suburbs. 2) minorities supposedly terrified of Trump. It failed in both accounts. political economy is the only base for a popular mass movement. Trump was aided by demagogic appeals to the working class, while Hillary avoided political economy entirely for market orthodoxy and demagogic appeals to identity. The class coalition that upheld 3rd way governments is disintegrating. the average black man in the ghetto doesn't care much about cultural appropriation or the diversity of executive boards.

>>9707731

Revisionist history.
You're ignoring the rather major era of Enlightenment humanism which the Founding Fathers were stepped in and of which democratic idealism was the political aspect.

Or let me guess every Enlightenment philosopher and statesman was just 346 layers of irony deep in their Game of Goons long-con.

>>9707718

They are importing people dependent on the government to outvote conservatives who moreso want to be left alone

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>>9707753
You're talking about relative wealth. You're just jealous other people have more money than you even though your standard of living is better than like %95 of the world.

Sort yourself out bucko

>Do you even know about automation? If people can't get work how are they going to keep alive?

We don't know what will happen, stop pretending to know you do.

>The toxicity of our environment seems almost a planed tactic to eliminate the excessive amounts of human

full retard

>>9707737
What I'm trying to, rather ineloquently, say is that the labor in order to overthrow the capitalist class they have to defeat collective action problems within collective action problems like Russian nesting dolls.

I say play electoral politics and take what you can get.

>>9707762
Marxism is the authentic successor and the logical conclusion to enlightenment thought. The founders embraced enlightenment humanism as long as it didn't enter into conflict with their interests. They didn't give up their slaves or redistribute their wealth didn't they? Even the jeffersonian yeoman farmer ideal was sacrificed at the altar of finance. read up on Alexander Hamilton and the suppression of the whiskey rebellion

>>9707787

It's been firmly established that democracy does not preclude wealth inequality. In fact wealth inequality is literally impossible, regardless of political system.

And they didn't give up their slaves, yaaaaawn.
They were classicists. Their idea of democracy was based on ancient greece, not 20th century feminazis.

Literally nothing you wrote amounts to the Founding Fathers supporting democracy merely as a "sham."

>>9707730
>4% of the population produces 25% of its trash
>capitalism isn't unsustainable because we've somehow managed to produce 435643 tons of useless products every day and somehow stupid people keep buying them

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>>9707370
>asks why do people romanticize the working class
>proceeds to romanticize the working class

>>9707777
I know I have it better than 95% of the world, I want them to be at least as well off. I'm beyond the jealousy of my youth, I now know the wealthy live mentally impoverished lives and would like to save them from their zombified sociopathic lives.
>We don't know what will happen
People will lose their jobs. No new jobs will replace them. They either make a hefty universal basic income available to all or they grow the masses of revolutionaries. I know a number of things could happen.
>Full retard
I said it seems. I'm not some one-world-government/new-world-order/Illuminati twit.

I'm well sorted, Petersonfag. You're the one with your head in the sand.

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>>9707807
>I now know the wealthy live mentally impoverished lives and would like to save them from their zombified sociopathic lives

You're the same as everyone else: romanticizing yourself against the ruling class.

>>9707807

>Universal income

Great idea. Let's take away the very last arena of community (work) and surrender to total personal isolation. Capitalists are fucking cackling at the idea of paying nu-males $800 a month to do nothing in exchange for total domination of the political, economic, and social spheres. Literally checkmate.

>>9707819

I would take UBI if I meant I could do nothing but play vidya all day. I don't even care if I'm "giving up power" to the ruling class, sounds like a sweet deal to me. In fact, I hope this happens

>>9707826

Is this supposed to trigger me or something?
I was already under the assumption that you're pathetic. The existence of guys like you is not news to anyone.

>>9707826
consider yourself
>Atomised

>>9707813
>romanticizing yourself against the ruling class.
Damn straight, sulky.

>>9707819
The way they imagine it now is simply as a supplemental. You'd still need to work. But yeah, if there are no jobs and you don't like the idea of paying someone to be free... Why in the hell are we still playing this sick game?

>>9707834
is it less pathetic than being a self hating marxist sjw numale? oh fuck off. there is no magic 'entitlement dust' that gives you a right to other people's achievements. people like Elon Musk are actually out there bringing progress forward. they don't owe you anything.

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>>9707370

>stupid, illiterate, malleable, bigoted
these are all bad things
>and religions
there is literally nothing wrong with being religious

pro tip: every democratic president in history was a Christian, and the only Catholic president was a democrat who is responsible for moving the ball on the Civil Rights movement

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>>9707431
And why have centuries of experience to back up that claim

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>>9707807
>I want them to be at least as well off.

Bullshit, you don't give a single shit about the rest of the world. You're just so pure of heart you just have to whine about people having more money than you, that it?

>I now know the wealthy live mentally impoverished lives and would like to save them from their zombified sociopathic lives.

Guess what nigger, most wealthy people are smart and hardworking. You're the one who's ranting about other people on an Azerbaijani metalworking forum.

>No new jobs will replace them.

We just don't know. If somebody knew what would happen after automation they'd make billions with that knowledge.

Clean your room first before trying to rearrange civilization.

>>>9707842
>you don't like the idea of paying someone to be free

???

>>9707850
Embarrassing post.

>>9707370
>Does this guy seriously think the inbreds in Topeka Kansas will want to participate in a labor revolution?
if anything they are not drowning in absolute rank ideology like the smug neoliberal technocratic urbanites who will definitely enslave humanity if they are allowed to have things their way

>that many anti-capitalists ITT

Why do people who haven't read a single economics textbook in their lives feel qualified to speak about economics?

>>9707874
>they are not drowning in absolute rank ideology
citation needed

>>9707874
Name 1 (one) flaw of technocratic neoliberalism.

>>9707876

>muh job creators

Christ I come to 4chan to get away from retarded conversations with my dad and here you are fucking it up.

>>9707881
Name 5 economics textbooks that you have read.

>>9707850
>'entitlement dust' that gives you a right to other people's achievements.
It's called capitalism

>>9707854
>you don't give a single shit about the rest of the world
You can't tell me what I'm thinking and feeling. It doesn't work that way. I've more love in me than Jesus. So fuck off.
>Rich people
>Work
Hah!
>We don't know
You don't want to think about it, is what you don't know.
>"...paying someone to be free" ??
Monetary wealth in this game affords your freedom. Not too bright are ye.

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>>9707854
>We just don't know.

>tfw have heard reasonable, enlightened tech liberals talk about how it would be a good idea to just shove the poor in VR tanks and hook them up to soylent drips until they die out.

Yeah, I believe we should trust these guys, they are the hardworking educated classes and know what's best for everyone.

>>9707887
>You can't be against the church till you've converted to five different sects

The anti-capitalists need only read history to know it doesn't work right. We have plenty of economists, including Marx, that have exposed it as a sham repeatedly. You have no argument in favor.

>>9707887

>provide authority-approved certification or else be silenced

Typical capitalist nut sucker.

>>9707874
There is no being outside of ideology. Ideology is all-encompassing, you and I are every bit as subject to ideology as the liberals you despise or the so-called salt of the earth proletariat of rural America. Being blind to ideology does not make you free of it, it just obscures the origins of your worldview and makes them mysterious. Also being blind to ideology does not make one innocent or harmless. That said, there are more than a few people who being cognizant of ideology and its power attempt to wield that knowledge as an agent of social change with all the finesse of a 5 year old who found his father's pistol.

i dont understand why working class whites are considered the modern enemies to socialism/communism. seems like they would be the first to break away from the global economy and establish their own cooperative communities

>>9707898
embarassing post

>>9707896
>>You can't be against the church till you've converted to five different sects

You can, but you can't be against the church if you haven't read any religious texts in your life.

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>>9707395
>We either make good on the revolutionary ideal or we face extinction.
>face extinction

>>9707898
Cringe

>>9707888
Arrogant piece of shit.

>>Rich people
>>Work
>Hah!

Then why aren't you rich? Because you are being oppressed? You don't want to admit it but you aren't rich because you are unintelligent, lazy and cowardly.

>You don't want to think about it, is what you don't know.

I can't predict the future like you can.

>Monetary wealth in this game affords your freedom.

If you're dependent on someone else to feed you, you are not free and if they have to feed you because they are forced to, they aren't free either. You are so resentful and bloodthirsty that you find it easier to force others to give you their money instead of just working for it yourself.

Clean your room now.

>>9707911
>you can't be against the church if you haven't read any religious texts in your life
Dogmatic and false. Think about it.

>>9707907
>why working class whites are considered the modern enemies to socialism/communism
Marxism is no longer about the proletariat, it's about a shift in bourgeois values towards self-congratulatory back-patting not for helping other people but for wanting to help other people. No communists I know do community service outside of "community organizing" to grow more communists. If they cared about helping the poor, why are they not in the soup kitchens or building homes themselves?

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what we need more than anything else right now is a decisive upswing in revolutionary zeal

>>9707876

>capitalists create monstrous control-freak system in which it is literally impossible to survive without participating in their fiat dollery doos
>then demands adoration for providing shitty soul-crushing labor

The capitalist cries out in pain as he strikes you.

We live in a capitalist society dipshit, we experience it every day.
Your post is like saying a poet can't talk about love because he hasn't read 5 books about neurochemistry.

No one needs to read some Jew's absurd systematizations when the reality is right in front of us.

>>9707370
>Why do people romanticize the working class? They're largely stupid, illiterate, malleable, bigoted, and religious.
>Does this guy seriously think the inbreds in Topeka Kansas will want to participate in a labor revolution?
welcome to contemporary left-wing politics

>>9707941
>Why do I have to work for money??
Grow a pair you fucking baby. Were your parents actually that shitty at raising you that you think you shouldn't have to work to get a reward?

i think financial sector is important to make the economy run. it's easier now more than ever to get funded to start a business, you enjoy financial freedom and society enjoys your innovation.

>>9707911
No, it works for religions too. All you need is a little history, sociology and the like. Anyone who thinks about it hard enough will come to the conclusion that they're a waste of time and ultimately detrimental.

>>9707922
>Arrogant
I am alive. Your Jesus is long dead, and only knew of a fraction of humanity compared to the throng I know. I've no children of my own, so I have adopted you all. If throwing myself into a volcano would fix the problem, I would do it.

I'm not rich because I was born into poverty, you clod. The 'merrican dream is long dead. The hose has been kinked, the spigot shut off. That age is over.

As I've said, I am not predicting the future, I am thinking about likely outcomes.

You don't understand the nature of freedoms, so skipping that.

Clean your head

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>>9707970
>I'm not rich because I was born into poverty

>>9707938
we are currently going through the largest famine since WWII. The actions of US and its gulf allies in Yemen could be classified as genocide. yet capitalist apologists keep pointing to 20th century bureaucratic regimes as some sort of pathetic scare tactic, while simultaneously excusing the ongoing humanitarian catastrophe as an unavoidable product of economic rationality. meanwhile, millions of tons of grain are allowed to rot in warehouses. sounds familiar?

>>9707936
not a Marxist, but the Marxist rationale for not doing charity work would be that it artificially ameliorates the destitution of the proletariat under capitalism, which is a necessary condition for a sufficient level of proletarian solidarity and revolutionary consciousness required for a revolution to go off. In short, charity work helps capitalism survive by providing free labor to compensate for the unlivable wages that result from profit-maximization.

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>>9707970
>Your Jesus is long dead

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>9707979
>genocide
which ethnic group are they trying to eradicate?

>>9707979
>we are currently going through the largest famine since WWII.

What? The ongoing famine in Yemen is nothing in comparison whith the Great Chinese Famine and the 1983–1985 famine in Ethiopia, both of which were caused by the actions of socialist regimes and both of which took place after WWII.

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>>9707970
I'm an atheist you absolute retard.

>'m not rich because I was born into poverty, you clod.

Oh yeah? My dad was born in a literal mud hut, now he's a retired electrical engineer with his own business on the side. You are not rich because you are an unintelligent, cowardly, arrogant, lazy, bad person.

>only knew of a fraction of humanity compared to the throng I know. I've no children of my own, so I have adopted you all.

Well then, seems like we're crossing into schizophrenia. I'll just leave you to contemplate on the nature of reality now..

>>9707979
>meanwhile, millions of tons of grain are allowed to rot in warehouses

Yeah, in a commie country there would be no grain in the warehouses because they wouldn't have enough food for everyone.

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>>9707995
Your's too, bucky.

The problem with these threads is that y'all just pick out the dumbest shitposter and batter him whilst ignoring significant discussion. That's the whole problem with the Chan format.

>>9708011

Not really.
The most entertaining posters get replies.
Just because your autistic serious intellectual post got ignored doesn't mean everyone's dumber than you.
If you were smart you'd know how to contribute to the topic and make it funny at the same time.

>>9708009
>Yeah, in a commie country there would be no grain in the warehouses because they wouldn't have enough food for everyone.

That's because they would be exporting it to bribe other countries like when Mao sent tons of rice to Albania while 40 million starved to death in China.

>>9707737
Zero sum game. Tragedy of the commons. Those do anything for you?

>>9708009
>I'm an atheist you absolute retard.
Bad guess. You all look like the same turd.

There's nothing of substance to respond to here. You just aren't too bright or thoughtful. Work on that.

>>9707807
>beyond jealousy
>commie
Nope.

>>9708011
Anonymity encourages only troll posts. Is there a post you'd like people to comment on? Point it out.

>>9708039
You don't get to tell me my feelings and motivations, anon. And I'm anarchist, if you can wrap your head around that.

>>9707489
This.

>>9708044
>anarchist
Damn, I'm sorry.

>>9707800
>In fact wealth inequality is literally impossible, regardless of political system
t. basement dweller

>>9708017
Rëëë doñt bülly mé, çūñt

>>9708005
>>9708009

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/03/13/fami-m13.html

>More than 20 million people face imminent starvation in four countries, United Nations officials warned over the weekend, the largest humanitarian crisis since the end of World War II. All four countries—Yemen, Somalia, South Sudan, and Nigeria—are wracked by civil wars in which the US government is implicated in funding and arming one of the contending sides.

capitalists resort to empty moralising yet again. 'socialism' is a moral evil, forever discredited by 20th century marxist leninist bureaucratic states, while capitalism is an impersonal non ideological system that can't be blamed for anything despite exhibiting the same brutal absurdities as the worst of stalinist states. For the ideologue, capital is synonymous with morality itself, the invisible hand of the market displacing god.

>>9708098
>Yemen, Somalia, South Sudan, and Nigeria

well it would be a lot harder to troll them into civil warring themselves if they weren't filled with religious wackos who can't think and just do whatever the cia tells them via imam

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>>9708044
/lit/ BTFO

>“The vain arrogance of the literati and the Bohemian artists dismisses the activities of the businessmen as unintellectual money-making. The truth is that the entrepreneurs and promoters display more intellectual faculties and intuition than the average writer and painter. The inferiority of many self-styled intellectuals manifests itself precisely in the fact that they fail to recognize what capacity and reasoning power are required to develop and to operate successfully a business enterprise.”

>>9708135
(((Mises))) posting, come on now

>>9707559
ORLY? Please tell me of the economic interventionism of the Republican governments of 1921-1933.

If there was hope, it MUST lie in the proles

>>9707370
>Does this guy seriously think the inbreds in Topeka Kansas will want to participate in a labor revolution?
>want to
OP, do you think those bumfuck peasants and workers in Russia revolted in 1905 or 1917 for no reason?

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>>9708159

>>9708135

>The Strawman Mentality by Ludwig von Mises

>>9708170
they revolted because there was a food shortage, and when the government told the soldiers to shoot the people rioting for food they said "no u" and germany sensing a critical moment sent lenin in to seize power and surrender the war

at the end of the day, they're people

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>>9708173
>marxism = government
>>>/pol/

>>9708135
Intellectual measurements of his own liking will naturally satisfy his argument. A "developed and successful business enterprise". Seriously now?

I already know I'm not the smartest person in the world, but no one is. And look at how his system deals with a over glut of educated populace. The system he masturbates to is failing to provide. Now pull a quote on how he knew this would happen.

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>>9708180
>marxism is good

rev up those choppers chet

>>9708176
>they revolted because there was a food shortage, and when the government told the soldiers to shoot the people rioting for food they said "no u"
Exactly, it was a situation that forced the "largely stupid, illiterate, malleable, bigoted, and religious" to act
Although Lenin played a role, he himself was not the reason why the October Revolution happened, as even he noted that the Bolshevik Party "found power lying in the streets and simply picked it up".

>>9708170
On a vaguely related note, the preface to the first Russian translation of the Communist Manifesto is hilarious. Marx is basically like "uhhh it's great that Russia has revolutionary fervor even though it's definitely not sufficiently developed to have a real or successful proletarian revolution -- the best we can hope for is that maybe the Russians will inspire revolution in Western Europe?"

>>9708200
>I'm not the smartest person in the world, but no one is.
What did she mean by this?

>>9708180
>labor theory of value
how many levels of living in the past and economic illiteracy are we on right now, comrade?

>>9708217

That intelligence is a not one-dimensional and can't be subjected to linear "greater than less than" comparisons.

>>9708206
it was because there was a massive war on and there was no food for the women left at home...do you think that is going to happen in a country like america that throws hundreds of dollars of food credits at anyone who can make it across the border? where there hasn't been a draft in generations? it's not gonna happen man

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>>9708204 (You)
>point out your retardation
>uhh... LE HELIGOPTERS :DDDDDDDD
>>>/pol/
Go there and stay there please
Actually, go to Reddit instead, it's probably where you came from originally

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>>9708217
That there's no such thing as the smartest person in the world. Only categories of intellect.
Hawking is a brilliant astrophysicist, but he doesn't know everything.

Then there's "wisdom"

>>9708200
>And look at how his system deals with a over glut of educated populace. The system he masturbates to is failing to provide. Now pull a quote on how he knew this would happen.

wait, you want the system, daddy big government to fix it for you , don't you? why should other peoples' hard earned dosh pay for your bad choices? nobody's fault but your own. quit whining and accept responsibility you inchoate snowflake

>>9708219
You are just too deep in bourgeoisie economics to grasp the LTV, sort yourself out comrade.

>>9708240

>using bourgeoisie as an adjective

wew lad

>>9708240
most intellectually respectable Marxists have abandoned the LTV, my friend
that's not the hill you want to die on -- it's already been lost

>>9708222
>>9708237
why are you even using a word you deny any coherent meaning to then?

>>9708256

>i can't over-simplify a complicated concept therefore it's incoherent

are you a stem student perchance?

>>9708239
No, fool. I see the game being played as completely detrimental to the human mind and the survival of the species. It ought to be put an end to.

Where the chips fall and what we call the replacement makes no difference to me. Just as long as it abandons the false value of chips and blips for the actual resource and labor put into it.

An automation would fit that world perfectly. The capitalist one, not at all.

>>9708251
>respectable Marxists
KEK

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>>9708239
>>>/pol/
Please stop embarrassing yourself

>>9708264
>muh automation

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fPzINdHPjPo

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>>9708251
>intellectually respectable Marxists

>>9708260
you understanding of the concept 'smart' -- an evaluative concept -- does not even allow for you to compare cases without endless qualifications and "demystifications"
so why do you even use it, even causally? could it be that it's a relatively straightforward concept that you challenge on *gasp* ideological grounds??

and no, I'm not

>>9708300
pardon typos am dead writing from hades via spooky wifi

>>9708300

>there's one type of intelligence and it can be accurately quantified as IQ

and i'm the ideologue? lol

>>9708256
It's a sentence. A concept. Yes, words too, can get quite messy.

>>9708277
>Debunked
A meme was "debunked"? Not even gonna watch it.
This is good though. Not Marxist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSKi8HfcxEk&t=9s

WHO HERE
DEBUNKED
E
B
U
N
K
E
D

>>9708307
take the linguistic turn, honey

>>9708311
obviously words can get messy, but that doesn't mean there's no coherence or systematicity to the way a word gets used in a linguistic community
people use "smart" in an unqualified sense and rank and compare people with it all the time
I'm not saying it has to be "operationalizable" in a scientific context -- and I doubt you want to deny meaningfulness to any words/concepts that aren't operationalizable

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>>9708335
Right. I was just trying to explain why there's no such thing as the smartest person in the world.
There are groups of smart people but they can often be quite ignorant of other things.

>>9707478

i think you fatally overestimate the power of immediate satisfaction to overcome the lasting despair of poverty

many more people would seize power if they felt that they could

>>9708352
an enterpreneur is just someone who's good at knowing what other people want

>>9707852

the civil rights movement was a mistake

moviebob plz go.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/03/abcs-socialism-working-class-workers-capitalism-power-vivek-chibber/

>>9707370
Marx was an evil man and knew what he was doing when he proposed his system of communism. He wanted to remove a system of control (which had wiggle room, little of it at the time, but still had it) and replace it with a even greater one

This fucker is one a of the reasons the whole world is in a mess, he wanted to influence the morals and social structure of men in order to prepare them for a coming communist government. This eventually led to subversion tactics (used by groups such as the KGB).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqSV72VNnV0&t=152s

The masses of degenerates are a stepping stone to this shitheads "utopia".

>>9708879
>degenerates
(you) guys need to add some more variety to your vocabulary if (you) don't want people immediately spotting (you).

>>9708908
Morally corrupt, godless, heathens

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>>9708879
yuri bezmenov is a living meme who cleverly made a profitable carreer pandering to burger paranoia about muh russians. Funny how americans can never own up the decay of their country, it has to be THE SLAV. see the Trump hacking scandal for example.

>>9707826
You should just cut out the middle man and kill yourself.

>>9708908
I'd rather be a (you) than a (((you)))

>>9707370
The working class of 19 century Europe was not as stupid and useless as the working class of today. Europe has an entire cultural paradigm, the social realism, that is dedicated to this subject. Art, literature and music.

Most of the Europeans that migrated to the US were working class people, and they made it well, even when they started out with nothing. Europe was overcrowded at the time with no available land to farm. This will always be a part of history that Americans are unable to comprehend because it conflicts with your idea of freedom; that you can always settle on available land and sustain your own life that way - this has not been possible in Europe for the last 500 years.

Giving the working class a right to vote is what avoided a revolution in western Europe.

>>9709031
>Giving the working class a right to vote is what avoided a revolution in western Europe.

don't forget the other temporary solutions: Bismarckian social democracy, violent suppression of the workers' movement, Fascism, WWII, the Marshall Plan, the EU.

now that all of these are either history or about to be history we might be able to get some action.

>>9709031
>The working class of 19 century Europe was not as stupid and useless as the working class of today.
When my grandfather was 5 years old he had to do compulsory labor for the landlord. He started his career in the coal mine, then later at the age of 28, without any more education than elementary school, he passed an entry exam and got a public scholarship to go to collage. He became the first academic in his line, but not the last. After him followed a landslide of intellectuals that bare our family name. All because of access to public education.

>>9707395

B-but butterfly-san, our system will survive indefinitely with the addition of a UBI.

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>>9709099
>B-but butterfly-san, our system will survive indefinitely with the addition of a UBI.

>tfw this is what meatbags actually believe

>>9709076
Most western European countries have similar political parties. If you follow European politics in depth you will notice that it is divided by class. There is the socialist block representing the working class, and then there are both the liberals and conservatives representing the upper class. Originally we had a liberal and a conservative parties, just like in America. What is now called the social democratic parties is the former communist revolutionary workers parties. The only way for them to execute power was trough the labor unions. Without democratic rights the way to power had to come trough a violent revolution. It made sense at the time.

After gaining voting rights, the revolutionaries came to power all across Europe trough democratic elections. The liberal and conservatives then reoriented to represent an alternative to the socialists. What happened next is simply the basic mechanism in a democracy: The power started shifting back and forth. Later the labor movement abandoned it's revolutionary principle resulting in anyone still a revolutionary breaking out creating the small socialist parties present in most western European countries today.

All of this was before WWII.

If you dream of a revolution in America, then you are simply not in touch with reality.

>>9709167
European and American politics is fundamentally different. Americans that call themselves socialist are the intellectual equal of a person with khaki pants strolling around in Paris.

>>9707370
>>9707404
>Does this guy seriously think the inbreds in Topeka Kansas will want to participate in a labor revolution?

The average burger is at least literate and probably has a high school education, which is more than can be said of the average Russian, Chinese, Vietnamese, Cuban, Yugoslav, etc. etc.

>>9707850
>bringing progress forward
Too many Toyota ads?

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Since none has posted these yet https://thecharnelhouse.org/2016/09/08/demonology-of-the-working-class/

http://www.grundrisse.net/grundrisse22/tellingTheTruthAboutClass.htm

>>9707395
>And here it is on it's last legs
big if true

>>9709099
>tfw the excess capital is finally redistributed in a sensible manner
Eat dicks Marx.