>constantly get told to "start with the greeks"

>>9683780
Your start with the ionians not the athenians

>>9683788
No you start with the Egyptians

>>9683780
>wants to learn chemistry
>reads alchemy

start with Quine

File: This picture represents what I think of you.jpg (8KB, 265x190px) Image search: [Google]

8KB, 265x190px

>>9683780
>Not reading them in the right order

>>9683780
He really is a dumbass, all his analogies are bullshit
Just start with Descartes

>Starting with the wrong greeks

>>9683804
The face of a man full of fear

>>9683822
You really need to read Aristotle to appreciate the significance of Descartes, though.

do people actually unironically think Plato was a dumbass?
surely this is bait?
the republic is one of the most incredible thought experiments i have ever read, if you think it's dumb you clearly don't understand the historical context of 5th-4th century Athens enough to appreciate what Plato was trying to do.

>>9683942
>t. Plato
Brainlet go away

>>9683942
People only think he is a dumbass because they don't understand the point of his dialogues. He was putting forth ideas to foster discussion and meditation. He didn't claim to be a knower of the truth dispensing it to everybody else as fact.

That is why Plato is an important read regardless of where you are intellectually. Literally everybody can gain something by reading his dialogues and contemplating them.

>>9683956
>people pay money to read books

Lmao

>>9683961
>people pay money to have twice-weekly one-on-one tutorials with world-leading scholars in various topics, ending up with a renowned degree from a renowned institution and a £87k job offer in the city...

>>9683972
You sound like a fagot. Go do some math.

>£87k job offer in the city
Keep dreaming, humanities cuck

>>9683956
>showing off on 4chan
Very Sad!

>>9683961
U wot?

>>9683976
top banks and law firms in London all pay that much to graduates, and they all accept a huge number of humanities students
thankfully, London hasn't yet fallen for the STEM meme that is ruining the American education system

STEM autists, everyone.

>>9683980
>top banks and law firms in London all pay that much to graduates, and they all accept a huge number of humanities students
Nothing productive or worthwhile, then. Pretty fitting for someone who can't think and can only regurgitate his professors' opinions.

>>9683989
fair enough, a lot of our finals were simply lessons in theory regurgitation, not like maths or science students then whom i imagine are constantly developing groundbreaking new theories? right?

>>9683980
>STEM meme that is ruining the American education system

Care to explain this?

>>9683991
As an engineer, most of my finals past freshman year were actually programs my team and I wrote, or projects we designed.

>>9684001
yes... like each of my essays
you use theories that you've been taught to develop your own essays/projects/dissertations etc.
two of my best friends from Oxford are engineers and their final group projects were hardly groundbreaking developments in their fields, just like my dissertation wasn't going to change the face of Classical studies
it's all the same until you start doing high-level postgrad/masters stuff

>>9684000
humanities in America seem to literally have no value, pushing people into STEM subjects which stunt their ability to be creative, thoughtful, and imaginative that leads to a huge number of people well-versed in theory and experimentation etc. but without the lateral skills needed to excel in a large variety of workplaces and in companies where interpersonal communication is vital
this is of course a broad generalisation, i know a lot of STEM subject students who are good with people and good with language, but, on average, the humanities students are far more successful in the UK at getting top jobs at banks, law firms, etc, which pay the most money and rely on great communication and lateral thinking

>>9683942

People only think he's a dumbass because he points out things many think are obvious or dumb without the realizing the only reason its obvious and dumb to them is because he was the first to say it.

>>9684017
>the humanities students are far more successful in the UK at getting top jobs at banks, law firms, etc, which pay the most money and rely on great communication and lateral thinking
This is false causation. Humanities students are the ones who get the well-paying jobs because their parents have connections. Humanities students also have the leisure to pursue a humanities degree (where jobs are, while potentially better paying, not as guaranteed as a STEM degree), because their parents are rich.

Personally, I love literature and philosophy and would have pursued one of them as a degree if my parents had money. As they don't, I went into engineering since that is a guaranteed $60k job when I graduate.

>>9684021
yes, this exactly
so much of Plato was filtered down through successive philosophers
he was literally the man who laid the foundations for the future of western philosophy, and thus the foundation of various ideas now seen as so common that anybody who stated them nowadays would be called dumb

>>9684026
okay fair i agree with the fact that STEM subjects are a safer bet for guaranteed money, but i studied humanities on a full student loan without rich parents because it was what i loved, and i've now secured one of the highest paying grad jobs in the UK
i could have taken the safe road and applied for astrophysics like my parents wanted me to during my final school years
i admit it's a huge risk, but if you're confident in your abilities, it's not always a bad decision in the long run, and doesn't always mean you were 'at leisure' to study a humanity

>wanted to start with the Greeks
>bought the odessy
How brainlet am I?

>>9684061

Nah, the Odyssey is a pretty good way to get into the mind set of the Greeks. Not so much because of historical context or anything, but just because of their love of travel and various cognitive dissonances such as how Odysseus was raiding other villages and selling slaves and this portrayed as heroic yet the suitors invading his palace and not even killing anyone was evil.

>>9684089
It's not cognitive dissonance, and you think that it is because you're thinking of Greek literature in the context of your own culture and morality. You are in serious need of a classics course. Second of all, Odysseus slaying all of the suitors, even the ones described as noble, is addressed by the poet and is therefore purposeful. Maybe you're just really fucking dumb.

>>9684099

It is cognitive dissonance. I'm not saying the Greeks were bad offenders of this or that I'm any better, I only have the moral positions I do because others laid the foundation. Ever culture throughout history has them and there's no doubt we hold cognitive dissonances we don't even recognize but those in the future will. But they did have many standards they'd set for one group, and then turn around and deride another group for it.

>>9683792
>not Babylon
you had one job

>>9683780
Get into Stoicism and read Epictetus anon. Unlike Plato, it isn't dated shit.

File: Capture.png (118KB, 222x340px) Image search: [Google]

118KB, 222x340px

>>9683780
Let me explain why I'd recommend this book to everyone: Plato is stupid.

Seriously.

And it's important that you all understand that Western society is based on the fallacy-ridden ramblings of an idiot. Read this, understand that he is not joking, and understand that Plato is well and truly fucked in the head.

Every single one of his works goes like this:

SOCRATES: "Hello, I will now prove this theory!"
STRAWMAN: "Surely you are wrong!"
SOCRATES: "Nonsense. Listen, Strawman: can we agree to the following wildly presumptive statement that is at the core of my argument?" {Insert wildly presumptive statement here— this time, it's "There is such a thing as Perfect Justice" and "There is such a thing as Perfect Beauty", among others.}
STRAWMAN: "Yes, of course, that is obvious."
SOCRATES: "Good! Now that we have conveniently skipped over all of the logically-necessary debate, because my off-the-wall crazy ideas surely wouldn't stand up to any real scrutiny, let me tell you an intolerably long hypothetical story."
{Insert intolerably long hypothetical story.}
STRAWMAN: "My God, Socrates! You have completely won me over! That is brilliant! Your woefully simplistic theories should become the basis for future Western civilization! That would be great!"
SOCRATES: "Ha ha! My simple rhetorical device has duped them all! I will now go celebrate by drinking hemlock and scoring a cameo in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure!"

The moral of the story is: Plato is stupid.

>>9684089
>one group of men(tribe) fighting and beating another tribe is heroic
>men weaseling their way into the home of a woman, who is still married with her husband missing, and then abuse her goodwill is bad
>cognitive dissonance
Are you fucking retarded, mate?

>>9684123
Stoicism isn't dated because is so vague and unfounded you can easily use it as philosophical cover up for your lack of discipline and intelligence (which is demonstrated by the fact that you don't to read an actually systematic and throughout thinker).

>>9684128
That's great

>>9684128
made me laugh desu

>>9684115
It's not you dumbass, invading Illias was justified since they were the first ones to break the law by defending Paris, someone who had violated the customs of hospitality.
On the other hand, the suitors were just some sneaky assholes who were living off of another man's riches and destroying his household while he was away and could do nothing to protect his possesions.

>>9684139
Philosophies are best when they have a degree of flexability. Adhering to a strict code of morals and ethics to the letter simply isn't practical in day-to-day life.

>>9684159
What? Day to day ethics isn't the business of philosophy, get a grip.

>>9684138

Well yeah if you're saying is worse than the other, it is cognitive dissonance. Odysseus was sat there crying like a bitch when the Lystrogonians slaughtered his group, but perfectly happy to do it to the cicones.

>>9684157

Ah, no I was talking about the Cicones, not the events of the Illiad.

>>9683822
Descartes, Hegel or Hume are all three great starting points for reasons.

>>9684128
No, its more like this.

Socrates: Hello Smart Man! I hear you are the smartest person in the land about _____!
Smart Man: Yes! I am very smart at _____, in fact I teach it for a living!
Socrates: Well then sir you must know, so I might ask, what exactly do you believe _____ means?
Smart Man: Well I think _____ means [insert reasonable definition of _____]
Socrates: But sir! What happens if [insert specific set of facts that goes against traditional ethics that violates the definition]
Smart Man: Well shit Socrates, I guess I gotta rethink all this shit. Thanks a lot asshole. I'm going home.
Friend's of Socrates: Oh, SOUH KRATES, U R SO WIZE!

>>9683942

People think he's "dumb" because they only see philosophy as a vehicle for spitting out truths. They don't see it how Plato saw it, with its primary value being the method and execution of thinking in and of itself.

File: 1451780123009490.png (359KB, 510x523px) Image search: [Google]

359KB, 510x523px

>>9684163
>Odysseus was sat there crying like a bitch when the Lystrogonians slaughtered his group, but perfectly happy to do it to the cicones.

>>9684017
>STEM subjects which stunt their ability to be creative, thoughtful, and imaginative t
lol nice assumption mate.

>>9684173
Typical STEMtard
>this is of course a broad generalisation, i know a lot of STEM subject students who are good with people and good with language, but, on average,

Is Plato the biggest hack?

I'm an intellectual and well-versed in the history of Western Thought and Idea, and it feels like Whitehead's observation "all of western philosophy is a footnote to Plato" would be more accurately formulated as "all of western philosophy is a continuous BTFOing of Plato."

Plato is like the pseud who comes on /lit/ to samefag his own arguments and false flag his "opponents." By fortuitous happenstance Plato's writings survived in greater volume and quantity than other more insightful and coherent thinkers.

Now, Plato is essentially something for people who aren't intellectuals to read on the subway, and even Black folk have started to realize this. When are we going to collectively stop focusing our philosophical efforts on BTFOing the non-entity that is Plato and instead start spending our time and effort on more worthwhile endeavours?

Pic related.

>>9684171

What's the problem with my statement?

File: plato.jpg (420KB, 1052x1172px) Image search: [Google]

420KB, 1052x1172px

>>9684199

>>9684160
Your conduct in the world and your epistemological understanding of the world are inseparable things.

At the end of the day, Stoicism argues that you should be one with nature and not let Earthly troubles bother you. If you come to the understanding that man is designed to live in tune with nature and that everything else is unnecessary, then you're more likely to lead a "live and let live" style of life from day to day.

>Plato
>Greek

lambda mu alpha omicron

>>9684204
Unironically, this.
God I hated reading the Greeks. Fuck the entire Socratic memethod as portrayed in Plato's writings. It must've been such a fucking stupid practice because people must've been due to reverse Flynn effect gigamorons back then.

>>9684030
What are some examples of this?

File: 14112378094009.jpg (16KB, 226x199px) Image search: [Google]

16KB, 226x199px

>>9684201
The fact that you can't even for a second imagine what the world-view of the ancient world is, and it isn't even the ancient world, even up to today. It's human nature, it's just more exemplified in the past because it was not only simpler in terms of life(everything from technology to societal behavior) but harder, and premature death was normal. Kill or be killed, conquer or get conquered.

>>9684017
you seem to think that the problem with American students and/or our educational system begins in college. the STEM meme about people being autists is because those autists are (probably) bullied in our sub-par public schools, recognize the fact that, later in life, (wealth > physical appearance) and therefore pursue STEM because a) few dumb aggressive people are in STEM and b) STEM careers earn more, on average, than humanities.

i was in private school (montessori, then regular, then a southern boarding school) since the age of 5 and did not encounter this at all. i went to two public schools, one of which was horrible in the wealthy suburbs of chicago, and one of which was excellent, in the poor black ghetto of boston.

i can't speak for other countries, but our public schools are most often like a prison experiment.

>>9683780
Related, how can I get into The Republic? The amount of names thrown about makes it a bit hard to get into

>>9684267
The Republic was just made up as a thought experiment, it's not an existing state. So you can't actually get into it. Sorry anon.

>>9684165
>Hegel as starting point
ISHYGDDT

>>9684273
There's an issue here? He crafts a new system, influential one. In not-POS he elaborates on it very clearly, even providing a dictionary for the reader. Kierke started with Hegel. Hegel's own work arguments against the notion of starting with the Greeks in order to get Hegel at all.

>>9684249

You're completely misreading what I said. They are cognitive dissonances, but no, I don't believe in retroactively judging people based on morals we understand now.

>>9684267
Gerasimos Santas' "Understanding Plato's Republic" is the perfect introduction.

>>9684205
Yes, but ethics is subsumed under epistemology and metaphysics, not the other way around, ethics by itself is worthless. And this ridiculous 'connection' with Nature is impossible and disingenuous.

what a horrible thread, sheep

>>9684277
I really doubt anyone just starting to read philosophy is going to understand much of what he says without any previous background, it's a question of simplicity rather than anything inherent of his philosophy.

>>9684283
Dude you can't even wrap your head around the first point made against you, and you're still misinterpreting everybody's arguments. If you can't think of ancient literature in the perspective of ancient people, you can't possibly identify the true contradictions to deconstruct it. I seriously hope you're not a humanities major.

And after months of trying, the twitterfolk were still unable to comprehend the basis and basics of epistemology. They also still failed to understand Stoicism. Smash that mf like button senpai.

>>9684299

I am thinking about in their terms, stop acting like I'm condemning them. I'm not, I'm just saying they are, objectively, cognitive dissonances

Cognitive dissonances is "the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioural decisions and attitude change." That accurately describes how the Lystogonians attacking Odysseus and killing his people was portrayed as a tragedy, while Odysseus killing and enslaving the Cicones was fine.

>>9684297
Have a little faith in the consciousness bro.

>>9684331
I actually started with Hegel myself, but by God it was frustrating, a less autistic person might have given up.

>>9683780
Maybe philosophy is not for you, anon. Have you considered genre fiction?

>>9684352
go back to r/books

>>9684226
take, for example, his tripartite psyche of rational thought interacting with appetitive and spirited desire
one might compare Freud's id, ego, and superego if looking for a modernised version, but the concept itself of a psyche split into rationality and desire is a commonplace these days, but was probably not so before Plato's Republic and his Phaedo/Timaeus

>>9683780
>Not starting with the Minoans
Brainlet detected

>>9684221
kek, IQ really is everything isn't it bro? God I just love science so FUCKING much, these stupid fucking "philosophers" (which has always been a stupid field really) from 2000 years ago don't know shit compared to Dawkins and Kraut.

Also I haven't seen you post on r/atheism in some time, why is that bro?

his Forms exist, you fucking braindead materialist morons. Beauty doesn't exist materially, it is an Idea that can only be perceived through the mind. Holy fuck the Greeks are supposed to be entry-level but postmodern/scientific thought has dulled all your brains to the point that you can't even understand even the most accessible of philosophical truth

>>9684339
I think it was rewarding

>>9684652
Me too, but it might be too much for a beginner, that's all.

>>9683788
Athenians are Ionians, but I assume you mean OP should begin with the literature, philosophy, and art which emanated from the Ionian colonies in Asia Minor and the greater Mediterranean coastal region rather than that which is attributed to Athens.

>>9684652
>>9684657
samefag

>>9684204
>No Glaucon you stupid faggot
im dying faggot.

Start with the Dorics

>>9684128
Great bait.

The ideas and concepts discussed in the dialogues are in fact not the most important aspect in them, it is more so how they are approached and discussed. Plato is demonstrating an epistemological methodology, not simply discussing his views on a variety of subjects and topics.

Of course, you need to be able to read critically to understand this.

>>9684807
>read critically
Something most of /lit/ can't do.

>>9684017
How much of a bourgeois philistine do you have to be to hold getting a job in a bank or law firm as the measure of success. Wew lad

>>9684221
You sound like a pussy who can't think.

The dialogues are supposed to make you question what you believe to know and to be true, and they're frustrating because they do not give definitive answers that resolve the inquiry. Try harder.

>>9685001
how come anti-semites never get uptight about this and start spamming about "muh culture of critique" etc when ppl talk about the greeks

>>9683780
>>9683788
>>9683792
>>9684121
Starting with the Greeks is just an old meme used on /lit/ to try and make newfags fall for it and waste their time.
It's like the Starting Strength meme on /fit/.
If you really want to get on our level, you need to start with the Mesopotamian and supplement your reading with some Phonecian poetry
This is the only guarenteed way out of brainlethood.

>>9685010

There is a difference between rational inquiry of truth and critique for the sake of critique.

Moreover, Plato is attempting to examine the process of how we might best inquire and to understand why we ought to inquire. It isn't about what he 'critiques', it's about his method of inquiry.

File: 399401_360564377346838_967232965_n.jpg (49KB, 720x465px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 720x465px

>>9685069
>ss is a meme

I mean, following the book word for word is a meme, that man knows nothing about dieting. But doing a 3x5 or 5x5 for a strength base with assets is a great way to start lifting. Until you hit a plateau a few times post nervous system training period and your returns are diminishing there's no reason NOT to do a full body lifting routine.
So I'm going to assume that start with the greeks is a meme with a kernel of truth. The joke being that you always have to go further back for context, and there are always multiple supplements to understand every part of the primary text, and every primary text must be read to full completion. But wouldn't starting with the greeks always be a good idea? I mean they have 2 primary works of literature and 2 primary philosophers.


Would I not get "almost" the same benefit of reading:
>any version of the Iliad and odyssey
>Euthyphro, Apology, Crito, Meno, Phaedo
>The republic
>Organon, Nicomachean Ethics, Rhetoric, Politics

Yeah, I'll miss out on quite a bit of context, but I don't think anyone is attempting to become a scholar in these topics, just as no one is trying to become a professional body builder.

>>9684481
pretty much everything can be done better by a high iq person. so yes, its nearly everything.

>>9685967
Salinger had an IQ of 104, so clearly having a high IQ doesn't help you with being a great writer, and very likely doesn't help you with any sort of artistic pursuits, with an artist like Warhol only having an IQ of 86.

>>9685001
It's precisely because I can practice some modicum of thinking that I could see for the brain dead aspect of the method as portrayed in his writings. It's like reading a conversation between two down syndrome toddlers. If you get intellectual stimulation from that I have bad news for you.

Why the FUCK wasn't this piece of shit thread saged on the spot? It feels like /lit/ is getting worse and worse every fucking week. I'll comfort myself by believing that all the people in this thread unironically calling Plato an idiot are the same handful of morons who savagely attacked Ontologicool, I'm basically picturing a group of lowlifes who don't even sincerely care about literature and would much rather just shitpost and meme about it instead

>Not starting with the ancient hieroglyphics

>>9683951
Yes, that must be it. Plato cannot possibly be dumb, it's just everyone else is wrong. Cool.

>>9686209
I blame summerfags

>>9686209
>a group of lowlifes who don't even sincerely care about literature and would much rather just shitpost and meme about it instead
Why are you posting as if post-modernism is bad? Lit collective intellect level agrees that post modernism is great and marxism is epic

>tfw just started with the presocratics
Feels good

hey why do you even fucking care op? and you haven't even been reading it very long. Now slow the fuck down, forget about /lit/ and just talk to Plato. Right now it is much more important of what Plato thinks of you than what we think of you.

>>9684165
No, just Descartes
>Hegel
Hopefully you are memeing

>>9686209
>plato is not dumb because I say so
Ok

>>9684268
hey this guy was funnay

Is Plato a dumbass? Maybe.

Is it important to read him to strengthen your philosophical foundations? Yes.

>>9684268
:^)

>>9683780
>starts with the greeks
>lol people didn't know stuff we know now!!
really boggles the nignogmind huh

>>9686688
No, I'm honest. He creates a simple system from the ground up explaining many mysteries and spooks of philosophy along the way on his vast bibliography.

Why is he bad? He even admits that you dont need to start with the Greeks in his own work (POS)

>>9686204
>I'm so much smarter than people who lived over 2000 years ago

Sure mate, that's why you have yet to put forth an argument and have only talked a lot of shit about a dead philosopher.

>>9687853
I just hate him, that's my fault I guess. I'd rather read modern thinkers 9 out of 10 times.

>>9685001
I feel like this is the true genius of Plato, many dialogues end in aporia. He isn't so much telling you what a specific thing is as he is trying to guide people towards thinking of it for themselves, thus becoming true philosophers who do not rely on dogma. This is reflected in many major figures in both science and philosophy. You don't have to agree with plato's metaphysical point of view (which is obviously a bit sketchy) to see that he has been and continues to be a great source of insight. We also can't imagine that he, taking very much after Socrates, thought that he had things figured out

>>9687859

Pleb.

File: head-in-hands-sculpture.jpg (162KB, 864x576px) Image search: [Google]

162KB, 864x576px

Finally read Symposium
turns out Plato was uber homo
mfw

>>9687859
Lol at you least you admit you're a philistine

>>9688316

This is the actual reason Plato is considered an central author and used so much.

The pluralistic nature of the dialogues stimulated a load of commentary that fleshed out all the arguments that were left undeveloped or partial in the dialogues, as well as the arguments the dialogues themselves seem to frame as the more correct.

It's no mistake the dialogues cover almost all the major areas and gesture towards all the major philosophical positions.

They do this using methodology included in the dialogues themselves.

Reading them and engaging with them seriously is basically all you need to do to understand how to do philosophy, and to prepare yourself for the western tradition.

>>9687859
There's nothing wrong with engaging with just a particular tradition as long as you admit you're doing it and you don't posture as some sort of scholar or some shit like everyone on /lit/ does.

The analytic tradition is basically just people really into Frege and each other.

You're supposed to engage in a dialog with Plato.

Problem with most posters on this board is they lack autonomous thought. They think "start with the Greeks" means "accept the Greeks as truth". I disagree with Plato on a lot of things, but I appreciate being made to think about them.

Uncritically accepting philosophical views of others based on nebulous idea of intellectual authority is a sign of immaturity.

>>9688414
Problem with engaging to dialog with Plato is you can swiss cheese the shit out of him. Ok, the point is Socratic method but most people already understand it by learning it by proxy.

>>9688568

So what if you can "swiss cheese" him? This board puts way too much emphasis on the Greeks, Plato is literally the entry level philosopher, and you would read him in junior high if not for our anti-intellectual STEM obsessed curriculum of the modern era.

>>9688586
I agree.

>>9684884
Are you literally 14?

>>9684160
the delusion

>>9684128
This is a top post on Goodreads from some queer. I love how he manages to skip over the fact that Plato's assumptions are not wild but perfectly understandable and true, and there ARE logical cohesive steps that proceed the claim. Not only is this true, but not ONCE does Socrates try to win the argument, but instead he is always seeking the truth. And he (Plato) makes this very clear in over half of the dialogues.

>>9685144
Does no one lift! Does anyone want to counter the short hand version of the Greeks?

>>9684128
>>9684166
>>9684204
These posts are worth the entire thread.

>>9689853
t. illiterate newfag

>>9688568

'Swiss cheese' him then. You haven't presented a single argument so far.

File: Screenshot at 2017-06-27 16:21:53.png (25KB, 227x87px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 227x87px

Why, yes, I used to masturbate to her as a kid. How did they know?

>>9690226
Yes, Socrates, I do believe that you are right. He hasn't provided a single argument.

File: topkek.png (513KB, 800x600px) Image search: [Google]

513KB, 800x600px

>>9683780
technically speaking, Plato might just be someones "OC character DO NOT STEAL" fan fiction of what happened IRL

we dont have much in anyyway to actually corroborate his presence or what actually came out of his mouth, but if everything is true, hes the OG shitposter of humanity and probably praised kek

>>9684128
>My God, Socrates!
truly, only a monkey could have written this