>"yeah, I'm a Buddhist >hasn't read any

>think buddhism is a unified religion

Do you realize that the vast majority of Buddhist monks throughout history would not have read a Buddhist text? Are you aware that the word "hell" with all of its connotations completely distorts the meaning of suffering re-birth in Buddhist doctrine? What was your aim in making this thread?

>>9671109
>college stoners version of Buddhism is Buddhism
Are you a Protestant or something? You know religions have rules right?

>>9671097
>yeah I'm the Buddha
> never read a Buddhist text
>doesn't believe there is a hell in Buddhism
>doesn't even believe there is a Buddhism only Dharma and Adharma
>is actually the Buddha

>>9671116
Again
>thinking buddhism is a unified religion
>thinking there is the same hell in every buddhism
>thinking the original buddha's ideas were always clear or kept undiluted by history

For every college stoner there's another lost soul like you who has forgotten the meaning for the words.

>>9671116
>rules
If you meet the Buddha in the path, kill the Buddha

>>9671097
This is my little brother but also he says he follows shinto and paganism too. His only experience with these things is that he bought a gemstone once at a hippy shop that he turned into a pendent he wears around his neck.

>>9671131
sounds about right

>>9671131
He sounds more wise than you tbhfam

>>9671144
You're just saying that to ruffle feathers, anon. I don't believe for a moment you would feel that way if you spent the day with him. He's actually very insufferable.

> spent 30 minutes in said hippy shop just so he got the "right" gemstone which he said means it needed to fit in his hand "just right"
> wants to become an author but barely reads, says that the picture of him on the back of the book would depict himself wearing a zorro mask
> talks through every movie, making immature "lol so random" jokes, annoying everyone. If you ask him politely to stop he goes on a large rant on how he talks through movies all the time and that people should just like him doing what he's doing
> any constructive criticism he takes as a personal insult
> got an expensive drum kit which he can't really play after seeing Whiplash
> scares off any potential romantic partners after a week due to how quickly he clings onto them and because - as one of them later told me - he wants to do "dragon roleplaying"

He's like a more hippy-influenced Chris Chan in some ways.

>>9671175
He seems charming to me until you mentioned whiplash, that movie is tripe.

>>9671175
Have you considered telling your brother to start a vlog? Fame and fortune await.

>>9671175

yeah and he sounds like he's living on the 10th plane of godhood

Why are buddhists on the internet so mean.

even /r/buddhism is pretty vicious. I asked them about stephen batchelor and they told me to kill myself

>>9671230
most "buddhists" at the end of the day are just buddhist academics that don't practice any of what they read, they just think the culture is interesting.

>>9671230
Why should they be nice?

>>9671125
>>If you meet the Buddha in the path, kill the Buddha
I never understood this, what does it mean?

>>9671203
No, anon, but he does have a blog where he posts very edgy poetry. I don't think I'll link it here to be honest. Objectively speaking, he has potential as a writer imo but it's clear that his main goal is to shock and that he loves this "i'm so deranged and disturbed" fictitious persona he has created for himself.

>>9671188
Very surprised that someone on 4chan would say that, regarding finding him charming. He's 20 years old and he acts like a 10 year old sometimes. He had a loud rant at some workers in a record shop once because they didn't stock this pop album he wanted. Not particularly an endearing characteristic imo, and unfortunately although that was a few years ago, he hasn't grown up much since.

>>9671254
To me there is something charming in a lack of self awareness. I get chilled by the self absorbed neuroses of intellectuals. I enjoy people who are capable of outbursts and whose tastes are idiosyncratic.

>>9671250
Being attached to the Buddha is still suffering.

>>9671267
There's a difference between being a "mad genius" and just a manchild.

>>9671097
>>thinks there's no hell in Buddhism

>be younger self, 18 and retarded
>parents saw me high and red-eyed with a bunch of my friends at walmart
>came up to me and blew my ears off and told me to get in the car
>claim there is no Hell in living reality

Also, Buddhists do not call themselves Buddhists. Everyone uses the Buddha's wisdom, it's not a Buddhist thing.

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>>9671238
why shouldn't they be civil? what function does being an asshole serve for the person being an asshole?

>>9671250
Basically you can't let the idea of the Buddha, his three-fold body so to speak, become a definition of Dharma (the way). Concepts as such are simply manifestations of Maya (sense-perception). It is a succinct argument against dogma meant to wake the most sincere seeker out of his sleep. Just my opinion, mind.

>>9671280
Idk I have just read a lot of Koans where the master hits the student with a stick or the student strikes the master. Civility is a nice way of being stagnant.

>>9671114
>Do you realize that the vast majority of Buddhist monks throughout history would not have read a Buddhist text?

[citation needed]

>>9671277
I don't even think one has to be a mad genius, just mad. Idk I can only judge based on the limited impression.

>>9671175
Well, at least he seems to be enjoying himself

>>9671289
I'm basing it on the fact that widespread literacy was not a thing throughout most of the history of Buddhist practice. Also the concept of transmission in Buddhist monasticism is based on a teacher-student paradigm, not a scholastic one. I would imagine that maybe some of the higher up, well to do monks read a lot but the majority of monks were simply taught to practice and then practiced. In Buddhism the practice seems to be more important than scripture. I think you might be projecting Christianity onto Buddhism really.

>>9671308
And to further the point there is no citable evidence that the Buddha Gotama ever read a thing in his life, just something to consider.

>>9671267
Fair enough, anon. I personally find my younger brother "a bit too much" at times, but maybe you might find him quirky for some time, IDK. To each their own I suppose.

>>9671097
man oh man hell in Buddhist seen far worse and more guro than orther

>>9671319
Be kind to him anon. My brother was killed at 18 and I would give anything to have him back. Sorry to be maudlin but I am sincere.

>>9671097
What are the Buddhist texts? With Hinduism it's a lot clearer with: The Vedas, Mahabharata, Ramayana. But I don't really know anything from China other than the Tao te Ching, and the I Ching. But I think those are more folk and Taoist. Could you explain the Buddhist canon to me? From what little I know it might not have much of an 'official' reading list, if that's the case then please just suggest traditional and modern books about Buddhism.

>>9671308
>>9671313
you're the one projecting western ideals of "buddhism" onto buddhism

asian buddhist monks did a shitton of reading, that's more or less all they did in monasteries - read and meditate.

you can be a buddhist and not a buddhist monk. maybe buddhists dont read - sine most of the people couldnt read, but the people in the monk class were very much literate.

>People who believe there are distinguishable lines between various lineages
I've personally seen people freak out when they learn most Zen schools still regularly chant and perform mystic shit, hilarious.

>>9671250
If by Buddha he meant, Gautama Buddha, then yes, kill it. Because he has attain parranibbana and is released from this cyclical "realm".

>>9671328
Don't worry, I try to be kind and supportive because I know the area he wants to venture into for a career is difficult (plus, he's gay and didn't have too easy a childhood) so I know patience and support are needed, but it can be difficult with how he behaves and sometimes I can't help but be concerned that he's going to struggle with people within a professional context. Some of the things he says are so vitriolic that I can't understand why nobody has punched him yet (not that I'm hoping for that of course). I just wish he was more self aware because then it'd be easier for him to do better than he actually is - a lot of what keeps him back is the behaviour that I personally find quite insufferable.

Sorry to hear about your brother losing his life at too young an age, anon. I know that wouldn't have been easy for you and I can't even begin to understand the devastating effect that must have had. <3

>>9671331
You aren't wrong, but you're making the westerner mistake of placing meditation forefront of Buddhist practice, this historically wasn't true and is a recent invention.

>>9671330
>What are the Buddhist texts?
Google the "Taisho Tripiṭaka", this is pretty much the bog standard canon for east Asia.

>>9671331
>citation needed

Scholasticism is not universally important, it is a very much Judeo-Christian western thing. You can be a Buddhist monk without ever reading this is a fact. You can become a Buddha without ever reading this is also a fact.

>>9671354
Honestly teared up a bit from that response, you seem very kind (!) and your concern for your brother is based in compassion. I hope he gets some self awareness too, but unfortunately he might have to suffer a few punches to the face in order to attain personal growth.

>>9671363
Actually I was wrong to imply there was no Buddhist scholasticism that is of course wrong and yes monks do read a lot and have read a lot but I don't think that understanding texts is central to Buddhist practice in a universal way. I think it would be wrong to write of the thousands of monks in history and probably even today who never learned to read.

>>9671379
Thanks, anon, and you're probably unfortunately correct. I've thought about that myself, that maybe he does need someone to bring him down a peg or two, but then I feel that his struggle to accept any form of criticism kind of hurts his chances of learning anything from it. I suppose if it comes to it he could get counselling but I hope a lot of his immaturity is just because he's young. I'm trying to be optimistic because I know we all reach a point of maturity at varying ages. Thanks again anon, very surprised to have a genuinely understanding conversation on here about something quite personal.

>>9671437
Likewise. Don't be afraid to interact with him though he probably respects you a lot more than you think even if it doesn't seem like it immediately. Self discovery is a messy process for sure.

>>9671230
I couldn't imagine being a Buddhist in the west, the amount of objectively incorrect information people proliferate about your religion could drive a person insane, even in Academia the level of discourse pertaining to your tradition is far below that of any other established religion.

>>9671250
People, such as OP, are attached to buddhism and its rules and teachings. On the path to enlightenment one must be free of attachments. One must rid himself of these rules and teachings, of buddha, to reach enlightenment. The Buddha reached enlightenment not through reading ancient text, not through some regulations or rules. But by meditating.

>>9671121
this man gets it.

>>9671779
>The Buddha reached enlightenment not through reading ancient text, not through some regulations or rules
Well apart from that time he reached enlightenment through esoteric rituals and spooky Interpretive dance.

>>9671097
>thinks

buddhism is fucking gay

>>9671116
actually most college buddhists are jews who are looking for a less cruel and spiteful religion but obviously don't want to turn to christianity

>>9671478
woah buddhism is like a super secret sect that only true orientals will ever understand! spooooky!

>>9671289
You do realize asking for a citation further proves your peculiarly Western bibliolatry (worship of books) and that there's no citation on this because they didn't have books back then to say no one back then read any books, right?

>>9671121
Whas Buddha a Buddhist, though?

>>9672047
Yes.

Buddha wasn't the first Buddhist either.

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>>9671097
I read Osamu Tezuka's Buddha, so I'd say I'm pretty knowledgeable.

>>9671116
>conflating rules with doctrinal and emphatical unity

>>9671250
It's a quote from the Chan master Lin Ji who has basically a medieval edgemaster. A little more context:
逢佛殺佛,逢祖殺祖,逢羅漢殺羅漢,逢父母殺父母

Meet buddha kill buddha, meet ancestor kill ancestor, meet arhat kill arhat, meet parents kill parents.

Medieval Chan is thought of today as a form of applied Madhyamaka, so what he is doing here is pointing out the contingent, subjective nature of all these phenomena - ultimately just objects of mind - they must all be smashed to open the space for emptiness. It's a call for radical iconoclasm that would shape Chan and Zen for centuries. It was this iconoclastic strand of Zen that made it so successful in the American counterculture, and it is that very iconoclastic strand that this thread is critiquing as somehow illegitimate, just like Lin Ji's detractors did in the 9th century.

The conversation we're having here has been had many, many times before. When Buddhism arrived in China it was the rich, bored yuppies who embraced it - just like in the U.S. They took on a watered down form of Buddhism that accorded with traditional Chinese mores, just like we've done in the U.S. This is what Buddhism does everywhere it goes. And from the 3rd century on there were conservative forces in China who just went around bitching about how everyone had it all wrong, then there were liberal voices who said Buddhism must adapt to Chinese circumstances, and on and on.

can you learn more about buddhism through just meditating endlessly than reading?

>>9673142
What? you wouldn't learn anything about Buddhism just meditating endlessly.

>>9671097
Need some good Buddhist texts to read. Suggestions?

>>9673162
Diamond Sutra is a good place to start.

>>9673166
thanks

>>9673205
np

>>9673162
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/words_of_buddha.pdf

This was super easy and fun, yet extremely insightful and elegant to read.

>Islam is evil, dude
>but Buddhism is cool lmao
I hate normies.

>>9671116
>projecting western concepts of organised religion onto Budhhism

>>9671097
>bitching about western misconceptions of Buddhism
Literally the lowest hanging fruit you could imagine. It's time to grow up.

>>9673609
No one said either.

>>9673632
>thinking buddhism isn't organized because some salesmen sold you a watered down version carefully crafted to be compatible with christianity and science

before the chinese communists liberated tibet buddhism was the state religion and the lamas lived in fat palaces while peasants toiled outside in the fields

>>9673646
This is true. A portuguese jesuit, in his first mission to Tibet, gave such accounts in letters I'm currently reading.

>>9673642
Autism.

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>>9673632
>le organised religion may may
American buddhists in a nutshell

>>9673119
>This is what Buddhism does everywhere it goes. And from the 3rd century on there were conservative forces in China who just went around bitching about how everyone had it all wrong, then there were liberal voices who said Buddhism must adapt to Chinese circumstances, and on and on
What a beautiful nightmare we are trapped in

>>9673142
well meditation is relly the last step.
Plenty of plebbitors here
https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry
do meditation without even knowing why, then they get stuck and they do not know why and do not know what to do, then they continue and once they interpret something as a click, they claim to reach nirvana

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>>9673646
>>9673676
You're jumping to conclusions anon.

The idea of reducing certain cultural practices and beliefs into one coherent whole is a very recent, and very western practice. Look no further than shit like Shinto, in reality a smorgasbord of different cultural practices, beliefs, superstitions and customs that are clumsily cobbled together to try and fit the mold of "a religion".

In the case of Buddhism it is an exceptionally diverse tradition. In its early form i.e. Theravada and the pre-sectarian Buddhists, it was primarily a philosophical doctrine far closer to the belief systems of Plato or Aristotle than Jesus or Muhammad. It's only later developments that can be said to resemble a religion - and even then it's only because the philosophy was molded to suit the cultural practices, conditions, superstitions and so on in which Buddhism had been introduced.

Now to give this thread some content I'll recommend some books that'll help with understanding Buddhism "as a philosophy" rather than all the cultural baggage surrounding it.

For foundations.

"What the Buddha taught" and "Theravada Buddhism" by Richard F. Gombrich.

After that to explore Buddhism's philosophical ideas in greater depth (particularly sunyata or "not-self") try "The Selfless Mind" by Peter Harvey, "Selfless Persons" by Steve Collins and "Analytical Buddhism" by Miri Albahari. After that you are probably more than prepared to read, and properly understand, the Pali canon (although you'll likely never read it all)

>>9673825
>It's only later developments that can be said to resemble a religion

I think it's because Buddhist philosophy often takes quite huge leaps of faith. These conclusions are then grounded in how they can be beneficial for life, not so much by their truth value.

>>9673900
>often takes quite huge leaps of faith
e.g?

>>9673920
reincarnation
karma
compassion

Jun 23, 2017 — Robert Wright & Massimo Pigliucci
video screenshot

Massimo’s new book, How to Be a Stoic, and Bob’s forthcoming book, Why Buddhism Is True
Similarities between Buddhism and Stoicism
The metaphysics of Stoicism
Is there a Stoic version of the Buddhist “not-self” doctrine?
Massimo’s Stoic advice column
Seneca’s tips for anger management
Achieving an objective awareness of your emotions
Using meditation to cope with feelings of failure

http://meaningoflife.tv/videos/38678?in=00:33

>>9672032
Which Jews? There's only Ginsberg, you're making this shit up.

>>9673825
As someone who is starting with Dzogchen Tibetan Buddhism (the only Theravada community is an non English one about a 2 hour drive away)

Are those books you mentioned on the philosophical ideas a good compliment/in line with Vajrayana Buddhism?

My current reading list is the Dzogchen Essentials and In the Buddhas Words a selection from the Pali Cannon.

>>9674659
read the stuff in the lineage you belong to. maybe CHNNR's stuff too.

Paul Williams Indian Buddhism, Gethin's Foundations of Buddhism are good solid academic introductions.

>>9674727
Thanks for the recommends, have you had any experiance with Dzogchen Buddhist literature or practice?

>>9674769
you're welcome.
yes.

>>9674773
>yes.

Did you find them clear and helpful? Im worried its literature might be tad lacking given its such an esoteric and practice focused school.

>>9674804
the literature is grounding and back-up.

Take a look at CHNNR's Crystal and the Way of Light for starters. I found it very helpful.

If you've received Direct Introduction or other transmissions, then you can explore the literature for the actual practices then too.

>>9674812
cheers, its rather daunting trying to access all this information from the bottom

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>wish I read the Pali Canon
>gain the equivalent karmic reward
checkmate, hinayana plebs

>>9674823
log on to the online retreats and DI's given by CHNNR and Garchen Rinpoche when you can, that's a free and great way to get started, in a practical manner.

read away when you have a chance, join a real life retreat if and when you can, and join Dharmawheel if you want more Buddhist discussion, bearing in mind they're a bunch of libfags.

>>9674836
Thank you again.

>bearing in mind they're a bunch of libfags.

I kind of expect that when dealing with Buddhism and Westerners even though the religion doesnt automatically allign with those views.

As for the site is sectarianism/being hyper sensitive to it an issue?

>>9674840
it's not sectarian at all, though the Theravada sister site dhammawheel is for obvious reasons.

they just exclude a couple of well-known pseudo Buddhist cults, everything else has its own subforum so you needn't bother wth the stuff you're not interested in. the Dzogchen forum has some good stuff, and updates on online teachings etc.

they also don't do the whole comparative religion/perennialist thing, though there's another sister site I forget the name of that does. (dharma paths? I forget)

>>9674875
Thats good to hear not a fan of people who try and twist and shoehorn in religions into perrenialism.

Is the Theravada and Mahayana divide as bitter as the protestant and Catholic/Orthodox one?

>they just exclude a couple of well-known pseudo Buddhist cults

Which ones are those? I enjoy researching/learning about cults

>>9674889
NKT mostly, a few tantric-style oddballs, self-proclaimed guru assholes, and some Asian nutjobs.

Catholic/Orthodox divide, maybe not so much. It's hard to say because on the ground there are quite a few exchanges that are not reflected in online discussion. at least that's been my experience.

>>9674889
A lot of New Religious Movements borrow freely from Mahayana, Vajrayana, and Theravada ideologies, as well as Hindu and Western religious belief.
In Japan there's Soka Gakkai, Aum Shinrikyo, and Agon Shu among others.
Check out the phenomenon in China as well. Though it isn't Buddhist-based, my favorite is Eastern Lightning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_salvationist_religions#21st_century

>>9674939
>>9674913

Thanks, Its nice to balance out the serious reading with a bit of fun culty stuff everynow and again.

Have just been learning about Scientology, which has been a hoot.

>>9674659
I'm afraid I only have a wikipedia level of knowledge about Vajrayana Buddhism.

I'd definitely recommend Gombrich's works just as a foundation and from what I've read Bhikku Bodhi's translations of the Pali Canon are well regarded.

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Not everything is suffering or unsatisfactory. Thinking so sets you up for a vicious cycle for which buddhist practice becomes its own cure.

Modernized (secular, non-self-denying) stoicism is the pinnacle of mental health philosophy as confirmed by the sciences. Le deal with it face.

>>9675167
weak b8 m8

>>9675167
>Not everything is suffering or unsatisfactory

Yes, it is. The "good" half of the wheel making the Evil half even worse.

>>9675280
That may be experienced.
Similarly the evil half can make the good half even better.

>>9671280
Why should they be civil? It serves them in no way and you're still a pansy either way, anon.

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>>9675167
>Modernized (secular, non-self-denying) stoicism is the pinnacle of mental health philosophy as confirmed by the sciences. Le deal with it face.
based dumb people

>>9671280
It makes them feel good somehow. I would say I don't understand it, and it's true, I don't consciously understand why this is, but I also am an asshole to people. There must be some sort of "pleasure" in it, although ironically it often doesn't really seem to feel enjoyable, neither in the moment nor afterwards. But look at the way people insult and harangue one another in real life and on social media. Clearly there is something that people enjoy about being an asshole. A sense of superiority I suppose.

>appropriating other's culture
>putting eastern mysticism on a pedestal
pretty cringeworthy, desu

>>9676927
oh you and your appropriation, you son funny.
>imminent ass appropriation

As per our book, The Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts, we believe that most of the texts included in what we call the early Buddhist Texts (EBTs) can be regarded as authentic. These texts are:

The 4 main nikayas in Pali
The six early books of the Khuddaka (Dhammapada, Udāna, Itivuttaka, Thera- and Therīgāthā, and Sutta Nipāta)
The Vinaya (especially the patimokkha and portions of the Khandhakas; but excluding the Parivāra, a later addition)
Such parallels to these texts as are found in Chinese, Sanskrit, Tibetan, etc.

All other Buddhist texts are later, and where they contain genuine words of the Buddha, these are quotes from the EBTs.

Now, while all of our authentic sources are found in the EBTs, not everything in the EBTs is authentic. All scholars in the field would admit that there are significant passages that must be regarded as later additions. Given the scope of the field, the paucity of scholarship, and the uncertainty of methodology, it is not possible to identify all authentic passages with any certainty.

It is, however, we believe possible to identify some passages as inauthentic with a fair degree of confidence. This is in cases where a series of independent criteria taken together all point in the same direction, with no counter-evidence. In this post we will assemble a list of such passages, together with a summary of why they are inauthentic. It is not exhaustive or authoritative. It is simply a convenient place to note significant discourses or passages that are likely to be inauthentic.

http://ocbs.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/authenticity.pdf

>>9671288
>read a lot of Koans
everything you have said or will say can be safely discarded, zen fag