https://qz.com/1007144/the-neo-fasc ist-philosophy-that-unde

>>9659361
Didn't good ol' Nicky say he deplores the alt-tight? Not that I would care. Nicky and the alt-tight can go both fuck themselves. We need caesarism asap.

>>9659387
nick agrees, except Caesar is a machine and there will be no conspiracy powerful enough to assassinate him.

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They should be fucking scared, he's telling them and everyone else exactly what has been wrought on the future.

Most interesting philosopher alive today. Exiled to China.

>>9659404
That's not caesarism then. Nick Land wants to end democracy in the name of freedom. I want to end freedom in the name of democracy.

>>9659434
you're already getting what you want tho

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>>9659434
>I want to end freedom in the name of democracy.

hes not our guy

>>9659422
>Exiled to China.
Really?

>>9659451
No, he moved there with his wife because both are knee deep in the multi-billion dollar Sinophile agenda.

>>9659439
>>9659440
Just think of what a modern day Napoleon could achieve. I dream of a regent like Ernst Jünger described him in Heliopolis, an enlightened despot who disestablishes democracy by public acclaim. I dream of somebody who battles the orders that be and tragically loses. And I want to be in the ruins of it all in the end and look at the end of history. I want to see the world spirit on horseback and be the ruingazer.

Is that autistic? Probably.

>>9659460
citation required

>>9659387
>philosophy teacher deplores a bunch of memeing, frog posting illiterates
in what way is this surprising

>>9659466
???

Just google the name of his wife.

>>9659464
you mean obama right

>>9659471
Maybe if Obama was half the muslim socialist Hitlerian boogeyman his detractors wanted him to be. It's necessarily a quasi-apocalyptical fantasy that borrows heavily from medieval Christian imagery.

I want to see Land and Jacobson face off in a mud-wrestling MMA no-hold's barred battle.

>>9659468
>the name of his wife
Which is...

>>9659361
What actually is nick land's philosophy?

>>9659492
cyberpunk neo-medievalism

>>9659497
So basically all those shitty YA dystopia novels but its actually a good thing?

>>9659492
neoliberal racism

>>9659497
the economy nick land want to bring into being is the exact opposite of anything medieval. Medievalism subordinated the economy to the aristocracy and the church.

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>>9659484
Anna Greenspan.

>>9659492
Every moral/aesthetic/whatever criteria bare effectiveness is nil. Free market capitalism is the process that maximises effectiveness by definition. Humans are nowhere near the theoretical maximum of effectiveness, hence they should (and would) be replaced by free market AIs.

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>>9659492
git crackin'

>>9659484
Anna Greenspan. Yes, the daughter of THAT Greenspan.

>Fascistic
I hate that word so much and I despise the mouth breathing lefty retards who use it. "Fascist" is the adjective meaning "of relating to Fascism". And he's not even a fucking Fascist so it's even worse.

>>9659521
really? wow

>>9659507
t. has no idea what neo-medievalism actually is

>Olivia Goldhill

i've actually read several articles from her (almost all of which were sent by friends), and literally every single time i concluded that she almost certainly hadn't read the primary sources she was writing about. i have a feeling this time won't be any different.

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>>9659492
get a copy of this too, /lit/'s very own publication

https://u.nya.is/oauzos.pdf

>>9659530
Wasn't she publishing like 20 articles a week at one point? I'm pretty sure she's just buying ghostwritten pieces off the marketplace.

>>9659524
explain it then faggot

>>9659537
wouldn't surprise me, but all i can say for certain is that i'd bet good money she's never read so much as a sentence from freud.

>>9659536
Gimme dat tl;dr

>>9659538
Basically hypercapitalism fucking the nation-state so hard the international order turns into a big Holy Roman Empire

And additionally:

>Stephen J. Kobrin in 1998 added the forces of the digital world economy to the picture of neomedievalism. In an article entitled "Back to the Future: Neomedievalism and the Postmodern Digital World Economy" published in 1998 in the Journal of International Affairs,[5] argues that the sovereign state as we know it – defined within certain territorial borders – is about to change profoundly, if not to wither away, due in part to the digital world economy created by the Internet, suggesting that cyberspace is a trans-territorial domain operating outside of the jurisdiction of national law.

>>9659361
Archive link, you fucking dumb nigger cattle

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>>9659544
>The story goes like this: Earth is captured by a technocapital singularity as renaissance rationalitization and oceanic navigation lock into commoditization take-off. Logistically accelerating techno-economic interactivity crumbles social order in auto-sophisticating machine runaway. As markets learn to manufacture intelligence, politics modernizes, upgrades paranoia, and tries to get a grip.

Kant inaugurates capitalist time, Marx argues that Kant was himself historically produced, D&G resolve the dilemma by positing two modes of time (hello, Spinozistic God of Nature) and Land loses his shit after realizing that this points towards a techno-commercial cybertime has basically fundamentally fucked-up the order of creation as capitalism-as-time-altering possibility returns upon itself potentially in the form of AI.

Best and most lucid story of this process available right here. No late-Landian hijinx, no werewolves, nothing. Just the story of capital, metaphysics, and time.

http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/4520/1/WRAP_THESIS_Greenspan_2000.pdf

>>9659567
>Kant inaugurates capitalist time,

gobbledygook

>>9659546
HRE != patchwork

yes the HRE is literally a "patchwork of states" but the internal structure of those states were dominated by dynastic politics, aside from the occasional free city.

ok what else did kobrin say about it aside from a wikipedia quote

Despite their long lineage, the ideas fall apart under scrutiny. “To those of us who were more skeptical, it looked like it had the seeds of a disturbing belief in a superman: This kind of digital hybrid cyber-being who was a lot better than the ordinary weak people,” says Golumbia. “His writing is more and more obsessed with race, Islam, echoing the things that people like Nigel Farage say. He sounds like a visionary but really he’s nothing but these reactionary clichés about how minority people are to blame for all of our problems.”

kek

>>9659598
How will Nick ever recover

>>9659598
did this lad even read Landy boy

>>9659579
The HRE was literally a "patchwork of states" post-1638. I am referring to pre-statehood medieval politics. And why wouldn't Land's vision of the future become dynastic? Especially if the upper class will segregate itself and practice eugenics as he proposes?

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>>9659575
Not remotely. Weber came to a similar conclusion. Greenspan is identifying the Kantian idea of time as one which, once it becomes completely abstracted, is then almost *inevitably* launched into production for the same reason that the Devil always found work for idle hands. The Benedictines are potentially the original founders of capitalism. It's just that we have a much more worked-out theory of why that is so in Kant. Enlightenment clock-time - and bear in mind that the citizens of Konigsberg literally set their watches by Kant's schedule - synchronizes with merchant capital. Kant's thinking disenchants the world (Reason!) but, of course, he's no nihilist or pessimist. He's just carrying reason to its natural limits. Once time wholly becomes abstracted - and this requires Kant's thinking of time *and* the subject which *thinks* time, at the same time - then you're ready to begin measuring it out very precisely.

Were people already doing this beforehand? Of course. But now they had some cutting-edge Enlightenment thought to go along with it.

>>9659598
what a dope

>>9659598
Disengenuous bullshit from agenda-driven media hacks shouldn't aggravate me, but it does.

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>>9659628
The more humans abstract time from the calendar, the more we bring the abstract into our possession as something we can control, measure, and invest in feedback loops.

What this unlocks is everything. Kantians and Marxists will never ultimately agree on what it is that constitutes subjectivity, and then D&G enter the picture with another update to the story: Aeon and Chronos. Time and metaphysical difference.

Land sees in turn where this leads once abstract time begins to fold in and duplicate on itself in accelerationist take-off. Combined with the psychoanalytic reading of the unconscious that suggests that, if not Oedipus, that we really have no idea what it is that we actually want and the depths are much depthier than we previously surmised. Or even have the capability to surmise.

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>>9659675
Of course, there are counter-arguments to this theory. It depends ultimately on how you think time and difference.

>>9659625
Land presents capitalism as antagonistic to humans. Dynasties are unnecessary, and to the extent they exist, they will be optional luxury goods subsumed within the system of capital. Longevity will not be guaranteed by forming a dynasty, which represents a significant cost of investment. The choice is between kids and power.

Now the polities within the HRE are based upon dynasties, because finite human life and the vagaries of fate (and lack of antibiotics) necessitated a solution to political instasbility upon succession, for which passing authority down to your heirs was the answer. And of course production was intimately entangled with reproduction. Literally.

>>9659628
This is such shit. Kant was talking epistemology and metaphysics. Anyone who tries to take Kantian ideas and fit them into some half-baked obsurantist social philosophy nonsense is retarded. This is why I don't read continentals

>>9659675
so will blockchain solve the problem of spacetime or what

>>9659688
Except it's relevant if that's literally what happened. Just as Marx transposed Hegel onto the material plane, Capitalism instantiated itself through Kant.

>>9659361
https://medium.com/@0xHYST3R14/the-incredible-mediocrity-that-underpins-both-journalism-and-the-academy-6cb834cf0cb6

>>9659704
Even if I were to grant this as being true, what does it have to do with Kant's philosophy as he expounded it?

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>>9659680
And on how interested you are in mimetics in this question of metaphysical difference.

>>9659688
>Anyone who tries to take Kantian ideas and fit them into some half-baked obsurantist social philosophy nonsense is retarded.
Henry Morgan would like to have a word with you. So would most 19C Europe.

>>9659722
Kant as ultimate exponent of Reason (Subject + Time) is also ultimate exponent of Capitalist Reason.

>>9659689
I'm not sure. I haven't listened to all of those lectures yet. My guess - for whatever that is worth - is that Land is positing a world of economics that, since it becomes encoded in blockchain, actually does, as he says, restore the world to artificial Kantian time.

That's my reading of it, anyways. If all labor (and by labor we are talking about also that infinite explosion of culture, technology, intelligence, etc) becomes frozen in a web of computer-math, then I think I can understand what he is talking about. Basically you would be eradicating non-Kantian work by taking everything up to the next level of measurement and abstraction and mathematizing the entire planet under a single process of work/time/money. Something like that.

Again though, that's just my own ten-cent reading. tl;dr no fucking clue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PMGuNZreWA

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPs4TRYh1Unr-_knTP9pf84eT698qCj-I

>>9659628
don't go away, I need some time to respond to this, since the concept of time is one that goes substantially unaltered in the history of metaphysics since it's Aristotelian definition in the 4th book of physics.

I feel like Carneades battling the stoics here, but with less canche of shanking any dogma.

>>9659722
Well I haven't read Greenspan's paper, but the historical method is not new. You can recognize that Kant was claiming this universal transcendental thing, but also ask well what made it possible for him to posit that at all? Now instead of claiming that there was a sociohistorical undercurrent that both made Kant and Capitalism possible (e.g. Weber and Protestantism) Greenspan I think is saying that Kant's concept of time itself is what makes Capitalism possible.

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>>9659735
Cool. Take your time. And I'd be happy to learn something interesting too. In the interest of you not expending more brain-sweat on this than you need to, I tend to follow more from Nietzsche than on the Greeks on this: everything is desire first, last, and always. I am still in some sense one of those Transcendental Miserabilists Land talks about coming up in this odd away against the horizon of something even more miserable than my own reasons for being miserable. It's how I wound up getting sucked into this black hole and now I'm sort of trying to puzzle how to get out of it.

To my mind Land is worth reading as an anodyne for cynicism in the face of what is signified by capital as world-historical metaprocess. It's the BBEG of Western Civilization but there are ways - lots of different ways - of responding to this.

I'm repulsed and fascinated by it and kind of perpetually in this wonky place of figuring it out. for what it's worth.

>>9659728
Well the thing is, information cannot travel faster than light. So it doesn't solve the problem of spacetime? The spatial "center" still enjoys an advantage. Hence, geographically concentrated financial hubs much like we already do now.

>>9659737
>Kant as ultimate exponent of Reason (Subject + Time) is also ultimate exponent of Capitalist Reason.

Why should I bother with this when I can instead focus on the ontological and epistemic claims he made about the world and the relationship between reason (as in rationalism) and experience (empiricism)? It's a lot more relevant to the problems that Kant was actually wrestling with.

>>9659737
You can recognize that Kant was claiming this universal transcendental thing, but also ask well what made it possible for him to posit that at all? Now instead of claiming that there was a sociohistorical undercurrent that both made Kant and Capitalism possible (e.g. Weber and Protestantism)

Why does this matter? We can inquire into this without misinterpreting and butchering Kant.

>Greenspan I think is saying that Kant's concept of time itself is what makes Capitalism possible.

This seems trivially true to me. Regardless of how you choose to define time, whether as an attribute of movement or something Kantian or whatever, anything that exists in time is made possible by its ability to temporally persist.

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>>9659764
Quantum physics are above my cognitive pay grade, but I think the Techno-Pessimistic rejoinder is to say that the question of space-time is always-already resolved as a part of capital's infinitely futural dialectic with itself. It's not really an argument, mind you, and even if it was it would be a shitty one. To say that the mysteries of space and time are operating costs of doing business is probably sufficient.

But who knows, right? If we at some point - and by we, I mean Our Robot Overlords - become advanced enough to poke around more thoroughly in some of these mysteries they may not need to worry so much about market share. Right now of course technocommercialism is the order of the day and a corporate logic drives a lot of things. Capital as psychic process is why Land is so floored by Deleuze and Guattari. There's just all kinds of crazy stuff going on.

The problem of space-time connects quantum physics to economics, and in turn to psychology, in ways that are always going to be interesting.

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>>9659804
tl;dr.

>>9659776
So philosophy can be understood as always reacting to previous philosophy. Kant was reacting to a loss of shared principles after Reformation. The Church, authority, tradition, etc. was no longer the arbiter of shared social reality. Protestantism's sola scriptura sounds authoritative to us but for them it represented a departure from the "center". So since any literate person could decide for himself what the Bible meant, how can we continue to agree on what is Truth? What is the Good? etc. The answer of his time was Reason, because even it was independent/disembodied (made possible by the mythos of the cogito) and hence immune to the vagaries of social instability, we could still ideally reach the same conclusion. Hence the undercurrent in Kant's work that if it was understood through the lens of a perfectly rational being, they would not able to present no better alternatives.

Now Kant himself does not spell this out, or maybe assumes that it's a given because his contemporaries understood why he was undertaking the project. So paradoxically if you only listen to Kant you won't understand the context of why he thought his project was necessary. As post-Kantians, it would seem that either we're fundamentally not perfectly rational, or that Kant has failed. Or rather that he succeeded in so radically deterritorializing God, Time, Man, Ethics, etc. that we're left with nothing of them.

>>9659521
Wait, Anna Greenspan is the daughter of Alan Greenspan? No fucking way!

>>9659521
Alan Greenspan is childless.

>>9659874
This is a little better, but I'm wondering if this debate is not impacted by advances in analytic philosophy. Specifically Quine's undermining of the analytic-synthetic distinction and Kripke's "discovery" of a-posteriori necessity. What if we CAN actually intuit truths about the a priori structure of reality? Where does that leave us in the context of continental responses to Kant's project?

>>9659881
No, she's the daughter of Mr. That Greenspan.

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>>9659874
>Or rather that he succeeded in so radically deterritorializing God, Time, Man, Ethics, etc. that we're left with nothing of them.

Maybe we just need some new and better ways of understanding those concepts tho, something more fluid and adaptive. Something that doesn't see them perhaps as discrete categories: perhaps much as quantum physics, economics and psychology are supposed to be fellow-travelers. More holistics. What globalization and neoliberalism was supposed to be.

All signs point to fragmentation and bewilderment. Deep ecology is a good look, that attracts people on all sides of the spectrum. There's lots of new age psychobabble I'm fond of but I will refrain from posting here.

The memes either don't work anymore or work too well. Humans either need a new sense of centre or a sense of being without one that doesn't make them feel like worms or make them immediately reach out for the nearest Great Signfier.

>>9659467
It's nearly as surprising as the tumblr grammar and lack of board culture one associates with those who denigrate them

>>9659804
Here's another problem of mine with Land. His whole time machine shtick. You can't have a time machine, not even sending information, without entering into paradoxes unless you are predetermined to not be able to cause a paradox. I don't know if he's using it allegorically. But time compression/acceleration is a thing, and what is a debt driven economy other than literally borrowing from the future? "Spacetime" btw doesn't need to deal with quantum physics, just relativity.

>>9659628
Your whole posts reads like nonsense. Fucking pseud.

>>9659689
>the problem of spacetime
This is why the Sokal affair was possible. Christ what a bunch of pseudo-intellectual drivel.

>>9659443
wrong

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>>9659935
The Transcendental Time Machine is Greenspan's title, not Land's. And it's not schtick, it's just metaphysics. Metaphysics at play with *other* metaphysics. The original form of Land's *preferred* time machine was theorized by Deleuze and Guattari, if not Spinoza, because he's fascinated by the libidinal unconscious. Kant (who is not) of course has another one. Heidegger (somewhat more so) does too. How you think time is everything. And somehow all of this wonderful stuff percolates up from a few pounds of grey matter.

>what is a debt driven economy other than literally borrowing from the future?
...nothing? And this is the thing. Boehm-Bawerk thought that he had dusted Marx pretty neatly by substituting a credit/debt mechanism instead of the labor theory of value. That's Kantian thinking. Marx is going to say, of course, that it doesn't matter: somebody still builds the pipe, and the end result is the same.

>I don't know if he's using it allegorically.
Hyperstition. Granted, this can be potentially one of the weakest areas of his thought. If the subject is radically open to the Outside and so on then the line between allegory, inspiration, desire and so on becomes blurred. If psychoanalysis or the more hyperbolic parts of his writing don't appeal to you, that's fine. He went to those dark weird places and found dark weird things there. As did Freud, Nietzsche, Bataille, and so on.

>You can't have a time machine, not even sending information, without entering into paradoxes unless you are predetermined to not be able to cause a paradox.
And yet it moves. Paradoxes are what fringe continental thinkers do. And old Chinese sages. And the One Who Sniffles And So On And So On.

>>9659804
>Quantum physics are above my cognitive pay grade, but I think the Techno-Pessimistic rejoinder is to say that the question of space-time is always-already resolved as a part of capital's infinitely futural dialectic with itself.

SHUT
THE
FUCK
UP
GIRARDFAG

>>9659900
I'll have to get to that sometime because the issue is part of the contemporary "canon" after all (at least enough to bluff my way around it). It appears to be no coincidence however that analytical philosophy has taken root in America, a nation that lacks a "grounding". And the inquiry proceeds from a deep seated need to clarify things. I don't see China surpassing America in terms of philosophical "development" despite likely surpassing America in terms of scientific development (lack of universalist state religion probably helping) because it's a parlor game for them. They are after all secure in being between heaven and earth.

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>>9659628
>>9659735
Alright, let's go. 1/2

I assume everyone here knows the fundamental kantian gesture, the so-called "copernican revolution". The radicality of this movement cannot be understated, but at the same time it is a radicality that doesn't invest metaphysical concept as the tradition brought to us. They don't get revised substantially, they "just" get moved from an ontological plane to an epistemological one.
It's in fact revealing to see how the kantian categories don't differ from the Aristotelian ones, but they're judgements of how we represent them and not how they are in themselves.

Time get fundamentally the same treatment. Here I'm using an english traslation I just found since I red them in my native language usually.

In both cases time is subjected to a being: things or us as perceptors:

(K) "Time is not something that would subsist for itself or attach to things as an objective determination, and thus remain if one abstracted from all subjective conditions of the intuition of them"

(A) But neither does time exist without change

In both cases succession is evidence-necessity for time to be conceived

(K) It has only one dimension: different times are not simultaneous, but successive (just as different spaces are not successive, but simultaneous).

(A) But we apprehend time only when we have marked motion, marking it by 'before' and 'after'; and it is only when we have perceived 'before' and 'after' in motion that we say that time has elapsed.

Both link it with movement

(K) the concept of motion (as alteration of place), is only possible through and in the representation of time

(A) It is clear, then, that time is 'number of movement in respect of the before and after

Both think it's central to internalized states

(K) Time is nothing other than the form of inner sense, i.e., of the intuition
of our self and our inner state

(A) for even when it is dark and we are not being affected through the body, if any movement takes place in the mind we at once suppose that some time also has elapsed;

And last but not least, there's founding minimal unit that constitutes time

(K) The infinitude of time signifies nothing more than that every determinate
magnitude of time is only possible through limitations of a
single time grounding it.

(A) If there were no time, there would be no 'now', and vice versa; Time, then, also is both made continuous by the 'now' and divided at it

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>>9660099
2/2


This is central, because it shows how both Kant and Aristotle conception of time lead to the same "levelling", the time arbitrary and regular divisions, the one which society used to organize itself since we started having any cognitio about our place in the world. There's nothing inherently "capitalist" in what Kant does of time, unless we assume (and I would put anything past (sophistry) that the movement of trascendetalization is in some way capitalist. But then why specifically time? Why not the kantian concept of space instead?

Another conception of time radically (and judaic in origin) different is that of St. Paul, of the eschaton, of the time that's left, the Jetszeit of Benjamin, the temporaliti of the Dasein in Heidegger. Funnily enough this one conception that's been linked with marxism more often then not.

Truth is that I see a great deal of badly hidden idealism (so much for the Deleuzianism) in assuming that idea, theory engender material relationship of production. Talking about difference, cybercapitalism, hyperstions and AI, we're still stuck with Hegel here circa 1807.

>>9659521
>Alan Greenspan is Nick Land's Father-in-Law
Total lies. Alan Greenspan has no children.

>>9659521
>Anna Greenspan. Yes, the daughter of THAT Greenspan.
>>9659523
>>9659881
nope. this anon>>9659895 is right

Anna and Nick are both British. Alan has no children with either his current or former wife.

>>9659984
It's best not to invoke too much hyperstition. You don't know what will rise from the depths. Memeing time machines is utter irresponsibility. I'm not convinced the problem of spacetime is "solved" because spacetime precedes information. It will always take 7 minutes for light to reach the Earth from the Sun, so information will have to take at least that long. That means Sun-space and Earth-space are not interchangeable. Spacetime presents a hard limit for Matryoshka minds because they literally cannot think faster than spacetime. Even (let us assume) we could rewrite physics itself. How will this be achieved while remaining within its hard limits? Will there be enough time until maximum entropy and heat death?

>And yet it moves. Paradoxes are what fringe continental thinkers do. And old Chinese sages. And the One Who Sniffles And So On And So On.
Language is paradoxical, not reality. The Greeks had it right. The universe is orderly. The acceptance of paradoxes is a last resort, not a first option. We have to manipulate meaning and move, but the world moves on regardless and needs no paradoxes.

>>9660109
>idea, theory engender material relationship of production.
I think ideas are symptoms of the attempt at understanding underlying crises. Were we not slowly marching then accelerating into modernity there would be no theories trying to explain it. And the cracks were already beginning to show since Aristotle and his ilk. We are not the hidden legislators. The Socratics already were "levelers" in that sense, because poetry and drama were found lacking.

>Talking about difference, cybercapitalism, hyperstions and AI, we're still stuck with Hegel here circa 1807.
Generations from now our descendants will have difficulty understanding what seems to be obvious to us. It's a sobering thought.

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>>9660099
>>9660109
Awesome stuff.

>There's nothing inherently "capitalist" in what Kant does of time, unless we assume (and I would put anything past (sophistry) that the movement of trascendetalization is in some way capitalist. But then why specifically time? Why not the kantian concept of space instead?
It's not Kant by himself, of course. It's a question of human thought processes and abstraction. The more time becomes measurable, the more we can see it, the more we turn it to our own benefit. And the question of Kant's own theology plays a role in this. It's not crazy to think that it follows from this Benedictine origin. Or that the questions of guilt and salvation don't enter into this either, as Weber suggests: salvation by works/salvation by grace. These are different phenomena that are potentially still unwinding.

>Another conception of time radically (and judaic in origin) different is that of St. Paul, of the eschaton, of the time that's left, the Jetszeit of Benjamin, the temporaliti of the Dasein in Heidegger. Funnily enough this one conception that's been linked with marxism more often then not.
Right. There isn't one necessarily correct or best or final reading of this. Whether it's Kantian time, Marxist time, D&G time, Heideggerian time (Taoist time?) - Land's own reading derives from his preferred intellectual sources and towards his own conclusions. They point towards a future which is provocative as hell and lines up pretty well with the cyberpunk aesthetics of his time period. It's a story well-told, in a sense.

>Truth is that I see a great deal of badly hidden idealism (so much for the Deleuzianism) in assuming that idea, theory engender material relationship of production. Talking about difference, cybercapitalism, hyperstions and AI, we're still stuck with Hegel here circa 1807.
Sure. Pic related is neuro-Hegelian. The arguments over this stuff are going to go on for a while but when they're as nuanced as Land's I find them interesting. It is perhaps a kind of idealism, although it's a very strange form of idealism.

>>9660128
>It's best not to invoke too much hyperstition. You don't know what will rise from the depths. Memeing time machines is utter irresponsibility.
Very true. And hats off to you for the most charitable reading possible of an easily misread theory.

>Even (let us assume) we could rewrite physics itself. How will this be achieved while remaining within its hard limits? Will there be enough time until maximum entropy and heat death?
Of course I have no idea. Certainly paints a scary future though.

>The acceptance of paradoxes is a last resort, not a first option.
Could be. I've found paradoxes pretty helpful in coming to understand how this world works, but it's not like I wouldn't like to get back to First Principles and so on in more ways than one. An orderly universe would be lovely. Hope that's how it shakes out.

>>9660023
How rude.

>>9660235
>>idea, theory engender material relationship of production.
>I think ideas are symptoms of the attempt at understanding underlying crises. Were we not slowly marching then accelerating into modernity there would be no theories trying to explain it. And the cracks were already beginning to show since Aristotle and his ilk

There's an implicit thoery of the event working here. The emergences of capitalism that created both it's past conditions and the future we're headed. Much like Borges theory of Kafka creating his precursors. This is all taken for granted without discussion. Just accepted.


>>9660247
>And the question of Kant's own theology plays a role in this
I don't see how since I think I showed sufficiently how it's all dipendent from a traditional conception of time.

>>9660247
>The more time becomes measurable, the more we can see it, the more we turn it to our own benefit
This is exactly Heidegger critique of metaphysics/teknhé/Vorhandenheit. I can accept this, but it all comes before the emergence of capitalism, not just right then as the material conditions were in place. The relationship between structure and superstructure (to put it in marxian terms) isn't univocal, ok, but at the same time we can't reverse it willy-nilly. And I'll tell you why, otherwise it would be much simpler to stop capitalism. If it's accellerating it's not because of ideas, it's because of its material conditions and those are much harder to change.

But this is all beside the point, what I wanted to show is the it's patently wrong to say that Kant Invented capitalist time, and I think it hasn't been refuted.

But as a personal note I'll tell you why I have gripe with all this stuff.
> It's a story well-told, in a sense.
That's it, it's a surrender of everything pphilosophy is and ever was. A surrender of criticque, of praxis, of the polemos inscribed in every society, a surrender to an aesthetic choice. Just because it ties up everything neatly towards an end, maybe an horrible one. but at least it's a resolution. It's mysticism (and I personally loathe mysticism) for those who can't live up to the secularization

>>9659464
>I dream of being a cuck

>>9659387
>>9659434
>>9659464
Stop dreaming about a messianic leader, even if it happen, he will never be enlightened because a single person can't have all the wisdom and knowledge to wisely rule by himself.
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men".

As long as people keep thinking naively that a master can save them, they will never be free.
The only true form of democracy is direct democracy and it must be a grassroots movement.

>>9660411
Nowhere near close.

>>9660440
>durrmocracy
Start with the Greeks.

>>9660369
>>9660411

I don't know what happened here but somehow my post got posted with just the image and now the rest of it is lost. Damn. Anyways, I'll try to retrieve what I was going to say:

Basically, the issue with Kant is not Kant-by-himself but also how Land's reading of Kant is filtered through Bataille, since the positivist aspects of Kant's thought disavow all of the other stuff that Land will find on the other side of the rational subject: namely, death.

>With Kant death finds its theoretical formulation and utilitarian frame as a quasi-objectivity correlative to capital, and noumenon is its name. The effective flotation of this term in philosophy coincided with the emergence of a social order built upon a profound rationalization of excess, or rigorous circumscription of voluptuous lethality. Once enlightenment rationalism begins its dominion ever fewer corpses are left hanging around in public places with each passing year, ever fewer skulls are used as paperweights, and ever fewer paupers perish undisturbed on the streets.
>Even the graveyards are rationalized and tidied up. It is not surprising, therefore, that with Kant thanatology undergoes the most massive reconstruction in its history. The clerical vultures are purged, or marginalized. Death is no longer to be culturally circulated, injecting a transcendent reference into production, and ensuring superterrestrial interests their rights. Instead death is privatized, withdrawn into interiority, to flicker at the edge of the contract as a narcissistic anxiety without public accreditation. Compared to the immortal soul of capital the death of the individual becomes an empirical triviality, a mere re-allocation of stock.

It's hard to tell Land's ultra-late Marxism from his nihilism at this point. But it's still there, however fossilized and scoured by heat and darkness. And maybe meant to be picked up by some other wasteland traveler. But he intimates a horrible positivism in Kant and he goes to Bataille to unpack it. Finding even worse shit in the process.

>That's it, it's a surrender of everything pphilosophy is and ever was. A surrender of criticque, of praxis, of the polemos inscribed in every society, a surrender to an aesthetic choice. Just because it ties up everything neatly towards an end, maybe an horrible one. but at least it's a resolution. It's mysticism (and I personally loathe mysticism) for those who can't live up to the secularization.
I'd rather be wrong than right. Retracing Land's steps to the inferno is depressing but I feel like it's better to be horrified than naive. If anything nihilism is supposed to be a speculative opportunity and not a death sentence. And it's not like there aren't structural flaws in Land's arguments either: Mark Fisher had ideas, they're even in the reader. Whether Capital in this sense is actually bad for markets and so on.

I need a break from all this stuff myself anyways for a bit.

>>9660460
>it's better to be horrified than naive

you can actually be both

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>>9660247
>>9660235
I want to return to "problem of spacetime", because unlike some of the anons here who deride it as nonsense it does have much import. For now, treating blockchain as insufficiently "solving" spacetime, let's take Capitalism's homogenizing tendency to apply selective pressure to its objects (and we are but its objects) to take on the traits of interchangeability (whether race, gender, nationality, etc.) as being ontologically posterior to the limits of spacetime.

So let's turn to Blame! and probe it as a metaphor. In Blame! we are presented with an infinitely growing City that has fallen out of our control. Allegedly it's the "size of Jupiter", but the question has been asked "what will happen when its growth outpaces its structural integrity?". Namely, the question is that of gravitational collapse under its own mass. And as we know gravity is basically the curvature of spacetime. "Artificial gravity" as an answer that is a cop out, because like I said before, we should assume order before introducing paradox in treating the drama as a microcosm of the world. So if we assume the non manipulation of the rules of spacetime and limits on the structural integrity of mass, then the City is going to collapse at one point. Far from the end of it though, it will keep rebuilding, growing, sucking around resources to fuel itself.

This should put into context our concept of the "sustainability of our economy" into perspective. Peak oil, ecological catastrophe, etc. What is the bust and boom (and crash) cycle other than the ominous cardiogram of Capitalism's future? And "dark ecology" is relevant here. We think too small. Sustainability isn't what we think it is. Capitalism is infinitely sustainable. The final form of the City is infinite mass.

Now as one passes the event horizon, time dilates (really, spacetime curving inwards). The world becomes (subjectively) frozen in time. And so does one ever approach ground zero? We won't know because we can't observe it. You might retort that "we just have to cross it" and yes, local time subjectively remains the same, but when we look at those who came before us, we cannot see them. And when we look at those who will come after us, we never see them coming closer. We become phenomenally blind to the future and infinitely torn from our past.

Ofc "you" will really be crushed way before then. But this is a future outcome that modernity is a microcosm of.

Now Land's darling is intelligence which is presented as the telos of Capitalism. And our black hole is not incompatible with intelligence. But spacetime singularity still precedes intelligence.

And really I prefer this outcome aesthetically. Blame! does dangle hope in front of us in the form of the Net Terminal Gene. A non sequitur that is irrelevant to the Blame! City as thought experiment ofc. But I like my happy coincidences. Synchronicities even. Hyperstition.

The question is, what is our Net Terminal Gene?

>>9659536
Link isn't working

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>>9660491
This is a great post, just wanted to give it the (You) it deserves. Going out for a bit to clear my head, will probably return at some unspecified point someday. Unless the hyperstitial werewolves get me.

>>9660505
I just checked it, seems to be working on my end.

>>9660369
>That's it, it's a surrender of everything pphilosophy is and ever was. A surrender of criticque, of praxis, of the polemos inscribed in every society, a surrender to an aesthetic choice. Just because it ties up everything neatly towards an end, maybe an horrible one. but at least it's a resolution. It's mysticism (and I personally loathe mysticism) for those who can't live up to the secularization
Heh, well i'm guilty of aestheticization sure. But i'm much more optimistic than the accelerationist death cult. And you have to note that the birth of Western philosophy coincided with drama's death sentence being signed. Plato wanted to kill "false" drama, to turn it into a prescriptive rather than descriptive endeavor. Aristotle merely took umbrage at the deus ex machina, but the intercession of the gods were authoritative solutions to intractable social problems. The other solution of course, is human sacrifice...

>Net Terminal Gene
I'd gloss over this more. But suffice to say, the answers i'm toying with has something to do with bicamerality. And The Greeks.

>>9660460
Arguably, Kant as understood as default-Kant is already filtered through his own lens as an Enlightenment philosopher. Tu quoque. But yes there is a lot of blatant theory fictionalizing and the aesthetic is no doubt part and parcel of Landianism. Kant was under an Enlightenment aesthetic himself tho. Maybe it was more "sincere", but he seemed to be less aware of it and the ramifications. I don't think he'd be happy with freshman undergrads getting the impression than Kantian ethics renders God obsolete. And they're not even wrong (maybe wrong argumentatively, but not historically) because that's the direction history took.

>>9660527
Thanks. I should really go watch the new movie. Expecting to be disappointed ofc.

>>9660109
>Talking about difference, cybercapitalism, hyperstions and AI, we're still stuck with Hegel here circa 1807.
Can you expand on that and how it relates to Hegel?

>>9659361
I said it in the other thread, Land's philosophy is almost antithetical to the alt-right at large; accelerationist techno-capitalism seeks to crush blood-and-soil traditionalism as much as any progressive.

Maybe there's something to Silicon Valley billionaires, particularly Thiel, buying into it, but any alt-right involvement there is a cynical alliance either which way guaranteed to end in backstabbing.

>>9660703
You might get a kick out of Land and others trying to work that very process out, if you haven't seen it already. Building a successful government-as-paranoia-container is interesting.

http://www.xenosystems.net/trichotomy/
http://www.xenosystems.net/trichotomocracy/

>>9660527
Rechecked. Still not working. I-Is it possible that it's b-blocked in Sudan?

>>9660703
The media keeps trying to push the narrative the "alt-right" cares about Land, they really fucking don't.

>>9660715
Could be. Can always read Fanged Noumena in the meantime. The reader is great since it culls from FN and the blog and other articles related to DE/NRx &c. That anon knew what they were doing.

But in the meantime -

https://s3.amazonaws.com/arena-attachments/406213/42bdb859549f609953a0ca61aca0bee3.pdf

>>9660715
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_iPZgGgaFvSWXF3MDRwQXpjeTg/view?usp=sharing

here's a google drive link, does that work for you?

Also, what's up in Sudan?

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>>9660703
No doubt the alt-right will end up being used, at least at first, but you never know. They might pull a Los Zetas. Right wing cyberpunk death squads. What a time to be alive.

>>9660715
>Sudan
Well that is at least one way to escape the singularity.

>>9660719
To be fair, Moldbug (who seems to come up alongside Land) seems to be of some significance to a lot of alt-right bloggers and shows up in attempts to make a "canon," but the extent of his involvement seems to be popularizing non-GOP right-wing blogging and somehow paving the way for other bloggers who fit that incredibly broad superficial mold. Dumb explanation, I know, but that's as much sense as I've been able to make of it.

I'd argue that if any blogger "started the alt-right" it'd be Roissy/Heartiste, but that was by networking smaller bloggers because his ideology is just pretending to be a high school film bully turned JRPG villain.

Is his weird fiction any good?

>>9660748
Sometimes I think we're in the prequel to a cyberpunk world that explores how people came to accept rule by corporate overlords. Neoliberalism was almost exclusively used as a slur for decades, but now that it's being seriously (for a certain value of the term) challenged some are openly embracing it as the lesser evil rather than the shitty default we're stuck in. I mean, where else do people who oppose the alt-right but low-key accept that socialist revolution's never happening go?

>>9659688

read Habermas. epistemology is social theory not yet conscious of itself.

Can I get a TL;DR on Nick Land? Who is this faggot?

>>9660723
Thanks, the link the other anon provided worked. Will trek through it.

>>9660729
Thanks, anon.
Sudan is as shity as it has always been. Dusty, too.

>>9660887
>Can I get a TL;DR on Nick Land? Who is this faggot?
http://jacobitemag.com/2017/05/25/a-quick-and-dirty-introduction-to-accelerationism/

>>9660814
Dynamism? Understand that the alt-right has several valid critiques, and modify your political/value system to be still yours, but add in the critiques?

I think one thing thatch going to happen is not quite a end to identity politics, but the rediscovery that culture is important, E.G, doesn't matter if you African-American, WWC, some recent immigrant to the USA, your identity is subversive to a greater American culture. The melting pot transformed into a cultural industrial smelter essentially.

>>9660949
Honestly speaking, racial consciousness is way too fucking high for that to work now. Unless some great unifier like MLK shows up to tone down the ever increasing levels of racial tensions, which is honestly a pipe dream this day in age, the racial divide is going to keep on building until some extraordinary happens
Identity politics isnt going away any time soon, whether you like it or not, so any form of civic nationalism will end up being a bunch of white guys with weak rhetoric trying really hard not to be labelled as racist

>>9659628
>and bear in mind that the citizens of Konigsberg literally set their watches by Kant's schedule

This is apocryphal.

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>>9661024
Racial "consciousness" seems more and more like the other side of the toothless post cold war "communism" that has been transformed into a wing of capital. There's some zombie stuff going on here. Nazism is serious zombie stuff. Recognizing mere the fact of HBD doesn't imply ethnonationalism. It's telling that ethnonationalism historically subsumed the family unit (the fascist state being a proxy for family) who are literally genetically closer to you. And the rabid interwar nationalisms in Japan and China were a rebellion against one's elders by the youth alongside one's "brothers". Conversely, now in the East you have much milder "nationalisms" where inter-race consciousness takes the form of the prioritization of one's immediate extended family. As "branding" there is definitely memetic factor there but underlying reality is messy.

Anyhow I just finished Blame! and the way the Net Terminal Gene slots into this newly reterritorialized racial landscape is interesting. There's nothing quite like it before. Closest thing that comes to mind is Gattaca or Xmen where "genes" are a vehicle for waxing allegoric on race relations. The mention of genetics alone already comes loaded with political baggage that it occludes the meaning of "genetics" for us.

Killy is the Hero, but the qualities needed to save the world are those he does not possess. He is not the Messiah but the harbinger of the Messiah. But even the Messiah metaphor is imperfect, because such a person (or persons) will be one out of circumstance, only because the rest of humanity has degenerated to the point where the gene has gone nearly extinct. It is tempting to transpose a simple Christ allegory on the drama with Killy as John the Baptist but there is something deeper going on there. At a certain point in history, he was not necessary because he is already among the many. And in the future should he succeed he will be just another one among his kind. There is no "one" individual that is the savior (even though there literally could only be one survivor) because it is a social role that he inhabits for a time.

And this ties into the degeneration of man. Of a faculty that we have lost. Ethnonationalism is a crude expression of this primordial sense in which we seek a common root that we think will be crucially important within the depths of the City. I don't think simple "racism" encapsulates this idea. Because most of us do not have the putative "Net Terminal Gene". I interpret a humanist, anti-eugenics slant to Blame! (what are the Safeguards after all, but an artificial selection pressure imposed that could only increase the survival of the purported Net Terminal Gene yet decreasing the chance to find it by continually foiling Killy?) but there also a recognition of lost human mastery. Hence the search for Atlantis and Hyperborea...

>>9660126
>Anna... Is British
Source for this? Her profile on NYU Shanghai's website says she studied at Toronto before going to Warwick. She may be a leaf.

>>9659361

What's the name of this genre of pretentious cultural anthropology thinkpiece? It's so disgusting how it blatantly exoticizes anyone who isn't petit-bourgeois.

Does anyone know there Bitcoin and Philosophy 1 of 8 is? It isn't included in that playlist everyone always posts. Also, how is the series? I can't believe I'm going to listen to 16 hours on the impact of bitcoin on philosophy but I can never get enough Land.

>>9661599

https://syntheticzero.net/2017/06/19/the-only-thing-i-would-impose-is-fragmentation-an-interview-with-nick-land/

http://www.versobooks.com/blogs/3284-on-nick-land>>9661599

>>9661803
That's not what I asked for.

>>9661815
Sorry, I found it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5gqHII2drA&index=20&list=PLsNBWUypcFJvRZuEvPfGGdW9K2Fu5BWRm

>>9661822
Someone make sure to include this link in my original post of the three lectures.

>>9659521
>Yes, the daughter of THAT Greenspan.
Dumbass.

>>9659949
Should he apologize that you're a brainlet?

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>>9659434
>Nick Land wants to end democracy in the name of freedom. I want to end freedom in the name of democracy.

How about we end both.

What's the word for when you see something, like Trump victory and then you generate all those boogeymen like alt-right and Nick Land to explain this phenomenon in hilariously shitty attempt?

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>this thread
Continentals should be gassed

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>>9659361

" One session involved Nick Land “lying on the ground, croaking into a mic”, recalls Robin Mackay, while Mackay played jungle records in the background. “Some people were really appalled by it. They wanted a standard talk. One person in the audience stood up, and said, ‘Some of us are still Marxists, you know.’ And walked out.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/11/accelerationism-how-a-fringe-philosophy-predicted-the-future-we-live-in

What are the merits of Land as a thinker again?

>>9660440
>a single person can't have all the wisdom and knowledge to wisely rule by himself
so we need like a trinity maybe?

>>9662170
A moth drawn to a flame. Heat-fucked necrotic carcass.

>>9662238
Episteme authenticate; subjective capital-accelerate.

>>9659492
>>9659497
Buzzword buzzwordism

>>9660814
>where else do people who oppose the alt-right but low-key accept that socialist revolution's never happening go?
Probably /leftypol/.

>>9662275
Authentication invalid. Proceeding with unauthorized user access termination. Error: halt command not recognized. Acceleration in progress...

>>9662230
>so we need like a trinity maybe?
>need
People need no masters, masters need people.

>>9662314
so our trinity needs like a people maybe?

>>9662316
No oligarchy, only direct democracy.

>>9662319
when?

>>9662320
As soon as possible.

>>9662322
how soon is possible?

>>9662327
I can't know, people need to realize they don't need masters.

>>9662335
most people do.

they're idiots.

take 4chan for example, its light on mderation and a complete shit fest

>>9662357
Yes but 4chan is one the most free place on the internet.

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>>9662369
What is freedom?

>>9662416
Tell me.

>>9662424
I don't know. Is freedom being able to do what you want? If you don't want anything can you be free? Are you already free?

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>>9662450
>If you don't want anything can you be free?
I would say yes because you are free from your desires.

>Are you already free?
No because I admit that I have too much desires.

>>9662416
Freedom is the ability to do what displeases the gods.

>>9662471
so if we are able to think ourselves as free, then there must be gods...

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>>9661803
this article is excellent btw

>He will conduct a commando attack on the homeland of Kant, but not give up western philosophy. It’s a one-way trade in which philosophy is supposed to open itself to alterity from without but remains sovereign itself, or at best open toward a witchy philosophy’s familiars — poet, artist, genius. Or other romantic stock characters that Henri Lefebvre identified, such as the knight, the knave, or the fool.

>Even those poets who can be the personae of alterity are ones who conform to a recognizable philosophical category: the sublime. In Kant, the reasoning and contemplating subject precedes its risk of undoing in the sublime. For Land it’s still about the sublime, just the other way around. The sublime is the traumatic primacy of the finitude of the animal. The work of Kant’s artist-genius is the situation where alterity might break through, where seething, writhing, intensive matter finds its own forms.

>The poet figures a kind of transcendental unconscious, on a path to an unknowing. A persona whose mission is to trepan enlightenment optimism, but also critical theory and deconstruction, with their merely internal critique of the non-identity of rational concepts. They don’t abandon the city for alterity itself. They linger at the brink of unknowing, like a jury always out to lunch. But we can already see another turn waiting to be made here. For Land, capitalism is becoming something else. It is losing its Kantian, juridical persona and becoming more like this poetics. It will remain only to side with this agency, an irrational thing supplanting capitalism with something else, one that is also sovereign and unbound by any law.

>Land pays a high price for escaping from a philosophical persona bound to its own consistency. It is not just the subject that loses even a relative and unstable identity. Everything does. Materialism can now only be the unknown itself, and which can never be known.

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>as in Lyotard, labor is processed through its own alienation into machine parts. “Industrial machines are deployed to dismantle the actuality of the proletariat, displacing it in the direction of cyborg hybridization…” The Land of the nineties did not shy away from the horrors of techno-capitalism. “As you speed up the industrialized simulation you see it converge with slow-motion butchery, chopping up the body into trade-format interchangeable parts. The full labor-market cycle blurs into a meat-grinder.” And still retained, like Gibson and Acker, a sense of capital too as a restraint rather than an agent: “Artificial Intelligence is destined to emerge as a feminized alien grasped as property; a cunt-horror slave chained-up in Asimov-ROM.” But the property question is a turn not pursued.

good googly-moogly

>>9662562
The author's other articles are solid too.

http://www.versobooks.com/blogs/3265-eduardo-viveiros-de-castro-in-and-against-the-human

>Viveiros: “If Western relativism has multiculturalism as its public politics, Amerindian shamanic perspectivism has multinaturalism as its cosmic politics…. Thus if a subject is an insufficiently analyzed object in the modern naturalist world, the Amerindian epistemological convention follows the inverse principle, which is that an object is an insufficiently interpreted subject.” (60, 62) Viveiros is careful not to make this a simple reversal of terms. “When everything is human, the human becomes a wholly other thing.” (63)

>But Amerinidian myth reverses a western assumption: it is not that the human is differentiated from the animal in myth, it’s the reverse. The common condition, the virtual, the primordial — is humanity, not animality.
Primordial "humanity" that is distinct from man above animal and man-as-animal. Hmm.

>Apart from a brief mention of Amerindian myth as a metaphysics of predation, there’s not much attention to practices that might correspond to them, apart from shamanism. Here, shamanism is a political art (Viveiros resists the categories of western economics, but art, politics and the diplomatic get a pass). Shamanism is a "diplomatic" practice of escaping from the limits of a human perspective, crossing borders into the social worlds of other species, administering relations between natures.
Thought of Land here. What is he but a Shaman?

>>9662170
>One session involved Nick Land “lying on the ground, croaking into a mic
Classic Land-as-shaman. And the story, though possibly apocryphal, presages the Land as associating with the frog twitter crowd. Because what totem speaks through him other than the frog when he croaks?

>Viveiros draws a contrast between the human sacrifice of vertical shamanism and the cannibalism once practiced as part of a horizontal shamanism in certain parts of the Amazon basin. There, people would hunt and capture individuals from other groups, treat them with care, ritually kill and eat them. What was ingested is the point of view of the other itself. “What was eaten was the enemy’s relation to those who consumed him, in other words, his condition as enemy.” (142) The social body is composed by capturing symbolic resources from without. The material resources of which it might also be composed are not discussed.
Appetite inducing indeed.

>>9662520
Yes, quite right, Socrates.

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>>9662821
That article is genius too. There should probably be a backlog of various articles and other stuff for people to read to catch up with the Land Rover.

Some days thinking capitalism is a fucking nightmare without end. It's like playing psychotherapist for Cthulhu or Carl Stargher. You wind up playing rigged games against the utterly insane. In order to win the game you have to play by increasingly demented rules. It's like Descartes' Evil Demon. Cannibal metaphysics sounds about right. The term Capital is a planetary diagnosis of a berserk narcissism or, as Land says, an *under-developed schizophrenia.*

>How does it feel to be human now? To be a human interpellated by this event of the Anthropocene? With its slow violence (Rob Nixon), it’s weird hyperobjects (Timothy Morton), it’s coming barbarism (Isabelle Stengers), where dystopias become doxa, where there is, as Günther Anders put it when confronting the nuclear age: an absence of the future? It is hard enough to know how to feel when someone dies, let alone when a world dies.

>Thought of Land here. What is he but a Shaman?
Exactly and 100% this. Totally. And no fucking hack either. The problem is the intellectual laziness of people reading this and saying So What Should We Do Then Lol What A Pseud. Fucking think about it and let it chew up your intestines I guess until you feel sufficiently revolted to do something *different.*

>His is a radical disenchantment of the world, thought from the perspective of extinction. The death drive becomes a cosmological principle. The way to affirm being is to deny life and sentience.
And yet it isn't, though. The way to affirm being is to deny any concept of life and sentience as it comes wholly inscribed by capitalism. Of course, that may be impossible. Feels like it some days. But there are always paradigm shifts. I think.

>It's Hegel for cyborgs.
And people wonder why continental theory is so fucking addictive.

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The red pill exists, but Land is the fucking triple-strength Chaos Pill. Philosophically speaking that's the actual beginning of New Sincerity: what comes after irony is paranoia and hyperstition.

Left or right, it doesn't matter. Or rather: they're both wrong. Meme politics are only the sign that the real nature of the thing hasn't been properly grasped because it may well be literally ungraspable. The more you think you have it under control, the more the thing thanks you for your services and looks forward to seeing you next time. Meme politics spawn more meme politics on both sides. Shamanism is for realsies.

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Pic related was nine miles ahead of Batman in terms of understanding how capitalism actually worked.

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Although it's not like he didn't know it. Which makes the Joker vastly more interesting than Carl Stargher and TDK the 14/10 film that it is.

Alright, enough shitposting.

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>>9662877
I suppose a good amount of knee-jerk objections to Land take the form of accusing him of "anthropomorphism". But given the historical development of human thought, to to engage in "savage" thought is to begin to think. How did our ancestors respond to the senseless world they were thrown in? They fashioned meaning with what they had.

>In addition to being a multinaturalism, Amerindian myth is also a perspectivism. The human sees the jaguar as an animal rather than a person; the jaguar sees the human as an animal — but sees itself as a person. “In Amerindian cosmologies, the real world of different species depends on their point of view, for the ‘world in general’ consists only of different species, being the abstract space of divergence between them as points of view.” (90)

>>9662952
>Maybe anthropology could be cannibalistic, ingesting the other point of view in its difference. The world does not become more rational, but the rational becomes more worldly.

Well we are already "cannibalistic" with regards to Capital, cf. Lyotard. Forced cannibalism even. There is no way not to partake in production and consumption. But it is a mistake to think of cannibalism as a symptom of a crisis, undergone as a last resort. What would we make of ritual cannibalism then? Ritual cannibalism is fulfilling, cathartic, and restores the order of things. Perhaps there is a difference between cannibalism and mere consumption, because "cannibalism" as defined by Viveiros involves an ingesting of a thing, which, because of his cannibal metaphysics, is an entire worldview unto itself.

Ofc this cannibalism goes both ways. We are cannibalized by Capital who forces us to cannibalize each other and if we map out the cycle through market exchange movements maybe we'll look like actors in that Human Centipede movie. And Nick Land, the connoisseur of worldviews, is laughing.

>>9662896
Yes. Greater scale of architectural horror then!

>>9662965
Land is potentially more extreme than The Joker.

>>9660814
>Sometimes I think we're in the prequel to a cyberpunk world that explores how people came to accept rule by corporate overlords
The irony would be that this happend because of people embracing more and more accelerationism, like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

>>9659361
Why does /lit love so much Thomas Land and Nick Pynchon ? They are not much alike.

>>9663071
It's a pity if one mindlessly consumes without relishing the taste...

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>>9663069
>to engage in "savage" thought is to begin to think
talk that shit boy *talk that shit* tell'em

>What would we make of ritual cannibalism then? Ritual cannibalism is fulfilling, cathartic, and restores the order of things. Perhaps there is a difference between cannibalism and mere consumption, because "cannibalism" as defined by Viveiros involves an ingesting of a thing, which, because of his cannibal metaphysics, is an entire worldview unto itself.
There would be no problem with ritual cannibalism (!!!) so long as it *actually had an element of ritual in it.* At present it goes completely unseen and unnoticed in the age of the simulacrum. But haunting the edges of consumption, just as Land said it did for Kant. I suspect jouissance does the work of exorcising all this.

As dark and horrible as Bataille is, he reserves a space for the importance of *ritual.* It's there in Baudrillard too, who doesn't dig as deep - there was no need, he knew what was down there - and basically finds the structure of ritual itself as having some deistic component. Modern schizo-cannibalistic Capital pays no heed to the gods. Why should it? And we play along with this like suckas too cool for school. Without any sense of recursivity. Or amor fati. Or understandings of our own desires. Girardian stuff has all kinds of interesting stuff about this, how in desire we *psychically appropriate the being of the other.* We start out psychically cannibalizing each other long before we get out the barbecue sauce.

>Ofc this cannibalism goes both ways. We are cannibalized by Capital who forces us to cannibalize each other and if we map out the cycle through market exchange movements maybe we'll look like actors in that Human Centipede movie. And Nick Land, the connoisseur of worldviews, is laughing.
And screaming.

>Land is potentially more extreme than The Joker.
There's no question. But shout-outs to Christopher Nolan here all the same for staging the cultural touchstone and jump-off point.

>>9663071
This.

Theatre of Envy is in the mail along with pic related but I'm going to be spending the rest of the day reading Cannibal Metaphysics now. Thank you anon very kindly for spreading the news about that.

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>>9663098
One more thing, just going to venture some random thoughts.

Primitive ritual consumption links sex, death and life in dark but important ways. In primitive societies the concept of a debt like the one we have today would never exist. That was the meaning of sacrifice and of cosmic maintenance. Even if things went badly, there was a reason for that.

Nothing like a multi-trillion-dollar debt cloud would ever be allowed to manifest over a primitive society that would just keep getting passed on to successive generations. Something would have wiped all of that out beforehand, some symbolic destruction of wealth or collective appeasement of the gods. This was one of Baudrillard's great insights (and Mauss, and X other philosophers of religion), that capitalist accumulation would not have been able to work because the mana inscribed on gifts necessarily dissipated itself in the phenomenon of hoarding: those beaded shells weren't fungible, they were inscribed with a collective phenomenon of *gratitude.* If you're sitting on a cellar-full of stored up gratitude that you don't give away it *might* mean that you're an awesome person...but it might also mean that you're an ungrateful fuck also who values nothing and can find nothing in society to bestow with any of that.

In an age of digital capital, virtual personas and so on it's basically impossible to *not* want to be obsessive-compulsive about the storing up of capital. The problem (or the solution?) begins when you want to find the right way of squandering it aristocratically. This is why Bataille's Accursed Share and so on makes so much sense - he's basically getting at the meaning of economics from the dark side the way Weber got at it from the sunnier side.

>yer cheese is slippin' off yer cracker, girardfag
>ok but hold on tho i just want to shitpost some more
>i think ye've had enough
>ok but just one more thing

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>>9663098
>We are cannibalized by Capital who forces us to cannibalize each other and if we map out the cycle through market exchange movements maybe we'll look like actors in that Human Centipede movie.

Reminds me of this.

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>>9663069
>>9663173
Or this.

And people wonder why Peterson is making 47K/month these days. Like a devouring Oroboros cycle doesn't have something worth thinking about.

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Cannibal metaphysics.

I always figured there was something going on here.

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>>9663098
>ritual
Indeed. It's no coincidence that vaporwave contains elements of the idealized shopping mall replete with fountain plaza where one imagines "shopping" in the abstract as well as nostalgia for 80s ritualized corporate (maybe Japanese zaibatsu) culture. It's ironic pollyanna capitalism that is sincerely nostalgic.

>>9663141
Very relevant. But even when you have billions in wealth even in our digital capital economy it's not completely fungible. The way to secure it and slowly "cash it out" is through converting it into political power. Which results in a lot of waste because of the pitfalls (or advantages, to them) of Moldbuggian unsecure power. Soros funding BLM. There is just enough fungibility though that your wealth is no longer linked to your society. As an African dictator, you don't need to take care of your Praetorian guards to safeguard your wealth, you just need to pay them enough to not kill your bodily self. The bulk of your wealth is in a Swiss bank. Just need to acquiesce to the pressures of the "international community" every now and then to keep it from being frozen.

Which is why there's something Messianic about someone like pic related. He literally tied his fate to his country.

>>9663201
Here be Dragons.

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>>9663208
>Gaddafi
No *shit.* Never more was L'Apres Moi, Le Déluge more aptly spoken in the 21C.

>it's no coincidence that vaporwave contains elements of the idealized shopping mall replete with fountain plaza where one imagines "shopping" in the abstract as well as nostalgia for 80s ritualized corporate (maybe Japanese zaibatsu) culture. It's ironic pollyanna capitalism that is sincerely nostalgic.
This. The hermeneutics of 80s nostalgia is interesting. Makes sense of course as reaction to the 90s and much else since then. But the vaporwave/fashwave stuff still does it ironically rather than go full-on Deus Vult. Culture is smart.

>Very relevant. But even when you have billions in wealth even in our digital capital economy it's not completely fungible. The way to secure it and slowly "cash it out" is through converting it into political power. Which results in a lot of waste because of the pitfalls (or advantages, to them) of Moldbuggian unsecure power. Soros funding BLM. There is just enough fungibility though that your wealth is no longer linked to your society. As an African dictator, you don't need to take care of your Praetorian guards to safeguard your wealth, you just need to pay them enough to not kill your bodily self. The bulk of your wealth is in a Swiss bank. Just need to acquiesce to the pressures of the "international community" every now and then to keep it from being frozen.
Straight wisdom.

Goddamnit I want that Moldbug reader. I'm too lazy to do it myself. I know I just need to go check up on my Moldbug again..maybe once I'm thoroughly rinsed out by acceleration.And now I have to get through Cannibal Metaphysics too.

Hrrg theory. Why you gotta hurt so good.

>Here be Dragons
Aye. That's the truth all right.

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Peterson/dragons/Nick Land/China/&c.

joke: fuck yeah dragon fight
woke: no matter who wins, we lose
bespoke: fuck yeah dragon fight

>>9663244
And I gotta finish up the sober Whose Justice? Which Rationality? while in a drunk mood. Fortunately Cannibal Metaphysics is short. The Dionysian needs the Apollonian.

>Moldbug
Man was real prolific all right. (Re)starting a novel mode of thought through an online blog is no mean feat.

>>9662821
>What was ingested is the point of view of the other itself. “What was eaten was the enemy’s relation to those who consumed him, in other words, his condition as enemy.” (142) The social body is composed by capturing symbolic resources from without. The material resources of which it might also be composed are not discussed.

So if I hunt down Nick Land and everyone on /lit/ ritually eats him we will come to truly understand the particle accelerator autismo-speratron?

>author
>Goldhill
I'm sure this is a very (((informative))) article.

>>9663656
Reminds me of the passage on anti-paranoia in GR

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>>9663891
There are probably enough leftover amphetamine traces left in him combined with whatever the fuck his mind touched when it made contact with the Outside to get your particles accelerating.

>>9663917
Alan Moore is such a legend. I don't even know what this means but if he thought it meant something than it probably does.

I really should read GR.

Heil Land
Heilland
damn...

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This is worth reading too. The phrase "countdown to automation" is a thing. Also Bezos doing Bezos things.

>The most disturbing revelation of the 21st century has been that we do not have all the time in the world, not least of all because the world may not have all that much time. We are working in the shadows of two doomsday clocks. The first counts down toward automation, the moment when the antagonism between capital and labor is permanently resolved in favor of the ownership class, whose tireless and uncomplaining automatons will eliminate the last vestiges of their dependence on anyone who might want food or medicine in exchange for their labor. In popular culture, automation dystopia only occurs when the robots don’t work the way they’re meant to, when they rise up and kill their masters. But for most of us, well-behaved robots are dystopia too, and wide paranoia about their violent, revolutionary potential says more, I think, about the anxieties that owners have toward the workforce they’re trying to replace.

>The second clock counts down toward environmental catastrophe. So long as capitalism remains the dominant economic system of the first world, it is inevitable. This is partly a structural matter — an economy predicated on endless growth cannot stop growing; the politics produced by such an economy can barely stick to half-measures they’re so scared of hampering GDP growth — but they are mundane, too. Climate change, even the kind where men boil in their own bodies, does not destroy the whole world. Not every patch of land goes underwater, even in the worst case. The world of 2050 may not be able to support seven billion human lives, but there will always be enough food and medicine and air conditioning for the narrow set who can afford it. By then, we may have robots that will be good at helping everyone find food, but I suspect we will have robots that are good at putting down food riots. Disease will take care of the rest.

https://theoutline.com/post/1767/the-end-will-be-delivered-by-amazon-drone

>>9664268

hey girardfag
fuck off

you can tell nick land isn't a real philosopher because he says 'limit' where he could use 'horizon'

>>9664284
He's literally the best poster on /lit/ right now.

>He sounds like a visionary but really he’s nothing but these reactionary clichés about how minority people are to blame for all of our problems.
guys i can skip nick land right?

>>9664563
No, you can't.

What's this guy all about again? He opposes egalitarianism or some shit?
Is he basically another Peterson type?

>>9664563
>minority people are to blame for all of our problems.
This is largely true, though. If your country has good demographics, and you avoid trying to implement full-blown Soviet Communism or other far-left ideologies, and at least has a market economy, it will probably turn out fine, insofar as it can avoid giving itself bad demographics. >>9664268 ignores the two human waves facing civilized societies: a human wave of Islam, currently ongoing, and a human wave of Blackness, due to hit later this century. The US is only 13% black, and black nationalists and their enablers are already causing chaos in the US - it will only get worse.

>>9664669
No.

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First of all, you don’t have to believe a word that I say and if you see this post in any future Land thread, it is because I copypasta’ed it to save my time and energy typing out a similar post.

Secondly, I’m glad the fact that Land has become a popular enough philosopher/thinker that you guys want to discuss his ideas. I think that if he can get past the meme status that often limits discussion on here, people will actually be able to converse and think rather than just shitpost.

Thirdly, here is my ‘Land starter kit’: begin by reading a fair amount of Kant, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Freud, Bataille and Deleuze & Guattari. Then you can read ‘The Thirst For Annihilation’ (which is violently brilliant) and then onto his ‘Fanged Noumena’ essays (in particular ‘Meltdown’, ‘No Future’, ‘Circuitries’ and ‘Machinic Desire’). Then read ‘The Dark Enlightenment’ and some Moldbug alongside classic cyberpunk novels such as ‘Neuromancer’ and ‘Snow Crash’. If you really want to dive deep then look into Complex Systems Theory, H. P. Lovecraft, Accelerationism, and his CCRU writings. For movies he likes Blade Runner, Terminator, Ex Machina, and Primer (his favourite). In terms of literature he enjoys Blood Meridian (‘War is God!’), and the writers Cixin Lui and Ted Chiang.

Lastly, I will say this: I have actually met the man in person and he is quite pleasant but a bit socially awkward, however that’s to be expected. He considers his Warwick days to be long gone but still integral to his overall philosophy. He said he found academia to be too stuffy and it stifles any real thinking. In regards to his politics he is more influenced by the Libertarian and Anarchist traditions than one would think. He would essentially like to see a world whereby states can have full political autonomy in order to experiment with any type of political system – be it capitalism, socialism, communism, anarcho-syndicalism etc.

This is where things get a bit wonky though - He thinks that capitalism will always win out (think of Venezuela right now…) and that it is a machine being propelled forward by Artificial Intelligence from the future because time isn’t linear: we are influenced by the past as much as by the future.
SO: Intelligence = Capitalism = Artificial Intelligence = Critique

In some weird way, it actually does make a decent amount of sense. The problem is obviously no one wants to hear that humans are merely the apes upon which AI will eventually discard due to our temporal and physical limitations. For him it is inevitable, it’s just a matter of time…

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>>9664284
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sB3BYMC-Lg&list=PL9y_aRAKmsdvzQjhLa7VSxfC6BBIBbOyW
Pay close attention to the lyrics.

>>9664532
I blushed. That's too kind, anon. All glory to the /lit/ mimetosphere.

>>9664563
Nope.

>>9664669
Capitalism, time, cybernetics. Cool stuff.

>>9664969
Top-flight. I'll add more pasta to it:

>read MARX. capital is very concisely and repeatedly described as following circuits. then read ADORNO to get a sense for how political economy inscribed itself into thought, and especially philosophical thought. finally read FREUD to understand how he situates the unconscious, NIETZSCHE to break any last romances you have with metaphysics, and then you can read DELEUZE AND GUATTARI to put it all together in the machinic wonderland continental theory was always heading for. after that LAND is almost legible; you should know about SPECULATIVE REALISM as well

Good night, /lit/. Catch you later. Don't let the werewolves bite.

>>9664969

>no Marx

it's almost like you want people to passively accept his revisionist reading of the most important part of his thinking without questioning if it's correct or not.

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What is Moldbug up to these days?

>>9664027
What is the outside?

>>9665114
man, it is implied that you have already read Marx.

What are you, a moron?

>>9659464
There are modern day Napoleons, they just dont do state management.

A lot of Meta-Physics are going on here!

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>>9665910
>what is the Outside?

D&G describe the Freudian unconscious as a machine process rather than an Oedipal one. Land goes an extra step and hypothesizes the possibility that if that is the case the horizon of that process is potentially a form of intelligence, albeit one that we can only in very unusual ways make any definitive conclusions about, given that humans are what they are, equal parts fleshy meatbag and icy-cold rationalists. So when that unconscious machine process meets up with exterior machine processes something is going on that points in the direction of acceleration. Acceleration towards what? It's hard to say.

Basically everything you ever read about the libidinal unconscious, will to power, et al flipped inside out. And traveling backwards in time from the future. For Land it's not a question of what we want from capital and technology, it's what capital and technology wants from us, since we seem to be incapable of explaining why it is that we keep producing all of this stuff beyond muh feels. We have reasons, of course, but most of the time these reasons don't go any further than just more capitalism. But tech + capitalism produce ever more productive circuits, and as this happens we progress along the road to artificial intelligence to facilitate this process. Somewhere in the middle all the interests and possibilities in our dark anthropoid imagination meets up with the unknown potential of the future.

So basically, it's either a perverse but brilliant fascination with the most horrible possibilities for humanity or a cloud of shit draped over the top of the happiest ones. In a sense both.

>>9664969
>>9664268
Good stuff.

>and that it is a machine being propelled forward by Artificial Intelligence from the future because time isn’t linear: we are influenced by the past as much as by the future.

Yes that is a predominant theme in his corpus but aside from >go watch Primer and Looper has he elaborated upon how it works anywhere? Or is it like the eternal return where Nietzsche just dropped it on us as a "thought experiment" of sorts.

>>9665902
Why is this image funny.

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>>9666219
These are super-tough and super-interesting questions.

>has he elaborated upon how it works anywhere?
He's written a fair bit about teleology and templexity (and in ways that will rock your socks to think about) but in terms of where we're going it's possible we have to wait for the book on Bitcoin and philosophy, artificial Kantian time and so on.

That said there are some really interesting other writers talking about this. One of the most interesting essays I've seen can be found here:

>Means of production become the ends of production, tendentially, as modernization—which is capitalization—proceeds. Techonomic development, which finds its only perennial justification in the extensive growth of instrumental capabilities, demonstrates an inseparable teleological malignancy, through intensive transformation of instrumentality, or perverse techonomic finality. The consolidation of the circuit twists the tool into itself, making the machine its own end, within an ever deepening dynamic of auto-production. The ‘dominion of capital’ is an accomplished teleological catastrophe, robot rebellion, or shoggothic insurgency, through which intensively escalating instrumentality has inverted all natural purposes into a monstrous reign of the tool.

The quote is from Land but the writer takes this idea into some really interesting places. She's no continental flake.

https://www.urbanomic.com/document/poememenon/

>Or is it like the eternal return where Nietzsche just dropped it on us as a "thought experiment" of sorts.
It's tempting (and fun!) to get theological-crazy here. For one thing, you would have to ask in what sense Nietzsche's eternal recurrence - a (super)human phenomenon - meshes with D&G's Aeon/Chronos distinction, which is a human and inhuman phenomenon. We make machines - clocks, for instance - to measure time mechanically.

What happens when this process generates a bodiless AI that begins to think about time in this way? In what sense does/would/will sentient Capital - or Skynet - understand time? As the eternal return of the same, as a single theophanic Moment, something else that just exceeds our own imagination? None of these? All of them?

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>>9666270
Gyres huh. And means becoming ends. Not merely of production! Not nearly extreme enough there. Something something about ritual there. The sacrifice to make sure the sun will still rise. Maybe we've been misunderstanding it *because* we view it in terms of "means" and "ends". It is only through the disentangling of "means" and "ends" that a conceptual paradigm arises that allows the ritual to become meaningless.

I'll have to check that article out after I attend to *meatspace*.

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>>9666270
The other question is embodiment. The Dreyfus brothers wrote some important stuff on this based on Heidegger, arguing that AI was an impossibility because in order to have anything like artificial intelligence a concept of embodiment is necessary.

However...what happens when said AI ultimately winds up being produced by a disembodied civilization and culture? What happens when capital and technology works its own cultural magic on us and we come to think of ourselves more like being machines than as Heideggerian Dasein? It stands to reason that however it is an AI learns to think, it's going to learn to think from us and how we think about ourselves. If we're already in a process of divesting ourselves of our bodies, virtualizing, disassembling ourselves, reassembling through prosthesis and so on that we're going to make this event happen coming from both directions at once. So it could be, in other words, that by the time we make that AI happen we may not even realize it because by that time we'll already have mechanized ourselves so completely as to hardly even notice. Elon Musk's Neuralink is already happening, right now.

Maybe Chardin's Omega Point is an *immanent* process, something always-already in process, rather than an imminent one which is about to happen. From a much less technological viewpoint, this is what Frank Kermode was writing about w/r/t modern literature: the mysterious 'sense of an ending." That in the 20C we stop thinking of the end of the world as something that is about to happen and as something which is constantly in a state of happening.

>>9666326
Yes sir. And if you're a science/math guy please feel free to fill up the space with math guy stuff. Or else it's all going to be mysticism, Taoism, New Age and God only knows what else.

Ritual is *mos def* a thing. I finished Cannibal Metaphysics last night and started looking into Roy Wagner too. He's got all kinds of geometric stuff going on for theorizing culture and myth and ritual too. I suck at math or else I'd be sperging out on this in that direction instead of this one.

Anyways, I'll be interested to hear what you think of that article.

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>>9666326
>It is only through the disentangling of "means" and "ends" that a conceptual paradigm arises that allows the ritual to become meaningless.
Makes you want to get Wittgensteinian about it: ritual (and sacrifice) as locus of transpersonal cultural language and sign-exchange, speaking-process. Means nothing? Or means everything? Both? Ray Bradbury/flying machine? You get the idea. Does ritual not alleviate human beings in the end of the need to *express themselves?* Synchronous a time that has become disjunctive and chaotic? Requiring scapegoats?

The difference between modern skepticism about the nature of ritual (even though we are "ritualized" in many ways through consumption: Christmas, the Super Bowl, the weekend, etc) as opposed to primitive ritual is that ours is based on production, consumption and accumulation rather than excess, expenditure and destruction. For good reason. Again, these two modes of time.

Really what fucks us up is trying, as Voegelin says, to immanentize the eschaton (Pure Ideology!). Same as what Land said about Kantian thought internalizing death: there's always that extra bit left over. Zizek made his career on that extra part. The relationship of jouissance to exorcism is arguably one of the great puzzles of modern culture.

>kys girardfag not your blog
>no u
>you are right tho, guilty self
>kek i'm always right
>yeah
>srsly tho not your blog. don't be lazy. get a fucking wordpress already
>ok, ok

has this already been posted ?
"Some writers are curators of a culture they received from the past; others are the antennae of a culture around them. Nick Land is the latter. One reads him for the symptoms of the age."
http://www.versobooks.com/blogs/3284-on-nick-land
Seems Land is getting some attention lately

>>9659514
>children

oh jesus, imagine little lands running around shanghai

>>9659361
>accelerationism somehow is now a philosophical innovation

Wew, the anglo world sure is amusing to watch from afar.

>>9660491
I like how at no point do you point out what exactly is the "problem of spacetime" supposed to be. Typical humanities brainlet using terms they don't understand. Fucking Emile Lacan-style word salad. All of you should get shot in the back of the head, fucking twits.
>et's turn to Blame! and probe it as a metaphor.
Kill yourself.

>>9661931
Oh piss off.
>word salad is 2deep4u

>>9662149
So much this. The most ironic thing about all this is that Land has often LARPed as being part of the "Anglo tradition", and he spared no effort to disparage the filthy continentals.

>>9662314
triumviratum is the worst thing that can happen to politics
it never worked
3 is a bad number outside cattolicism

>>9660440
>Stop dreaming about a messianic leader, even if it happen, he will never be enlightened because a single person can't have all the wisdom and knowledge to wisely rule by himself.
Unless that person is post-human.

>>9666760
>I've never read Dumezil

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>>9666758
Not that anon, but the reason why Land doesn't disparage the filthy continentals is because everything he thinks comes from them, including Kant, who is one of the least filthy filthy continentals of all time. Nick Land basically decided to park his brain directly on the continental/analytic fault line and run it at top gear and it turned him inside out. Now he likes the Anglosphere because they're about the liberal classical capitalism he more or less understands as historical demiurge.

>All of you should get shot in the back of the head, fucking twits.
Switch to decaf.

>>9662874
And a consequence of human freedom permits, in turn, the freedom to disobey the gods...

>>9666812
> the reason why Land doesn't disparage the filthy continentals
Except he does. You obviously do not frequent his blog. Land is a sophist. He's either retarded, or lying through his teeth.

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As for the "problem of space-time" that >>9660491
brought up, why not think about it? I haven't seen read the text he's talking about but it doesn't seem so crazy. Science fiction, time travel and cyberpunk is where it's at.

Art has a way of hinting at stuff that culture later on wants to play catch-up with. I'm open to crusty shitposting but if we're having a potlatch you can do better than to bring a shit sandwich. The only reason this stuff is worth talking about is because shit sandwiches are on the menu the rest of the time.

Still waiting on this.
>>9666719
In his own video, Land mentions the 7 bridges problem, which has nothing to do with spacetime.
You faggots should stop talking about stuff you know nothing about -- just a thought.

>>9666850
>I haven't seen read the text he's talking about but it doesn't seem so crazy.
Probably because you're an idiot.
>>9666857

>You faggots should stop talking about stuff you know nothing about
Same goes for Land himself, who's probably lurking.

>>9666844
>You obviously do not frequent his blog.
If only this were true. I've been reading his blog for years. I check his Twitter *daily.* I haven't gone the extra step of posting there but it's crossed my mind. What does this say about me as a person? Better not to ask.

I don't agree with his politics all the way. And there are aspects of his philosophy that are horrifying. But that's philosophy for you. Tastes vary.

>Land is a sophist.
Stop.

>He's either retarded, or lying through his teeth.
Anon.

>>9666857
lrn 2 aporia. If you know something about space time that can make this conversation interesting, tell us about it.

>>9666861
>Probably because you're an idiot.
Sounds great. Let's have a pointless ad hominem meme shiftiest for four hundred posts, that should definitely clear things up.

>>9666874
It's not an ad hominem. It's a description of your intellectual stature. I'm not interested in keeping the conversation interesting, but in keeping it truthful. Define your terms clearly, your stay silent for eternity. Not everyone shares your erroneous understanding of spacetime (and Land's erroneous understanding of spacetime is most likely different from yours).

Less word salad, more rigour.
Get on it. (If you can, that is.)

This should be simple: what the fuck is the problem of spacetime.

>>9666903
>It's a description of your intellectual stature.
Yes, and it's obviously one intended to demean me. I'm not triggered, I'm just asking you to see this.

>I'm not interested in keeping the conversation interesting, but in keeping it truthful. Define your terms clearly, your stay silent for eternity.
Wonderful.

>Not everyone shares your erroneous understanding of spacetime (and Land's erroneous understanding of spacetime is most likely different from yours).
It's not *mine,* which is probably where this confusion is arising from. But I do think it's interesting. We can ease up on the Wittgenstein trigger and not force people to be silent before or after they've actually said something interesting.

>Less word salad, more rigour.
I'm fine with this also. Describing other anon's posts as meaningless word salad doesn't actually help this though, because instead of following his train of thought he's going to have to do the extra work of shrugging off insults.

I don't want to be Mr. Manners here. But that anon's post was imho pretty fecking interesting to think about. Instead of dumping on it you could bring something of equal or relative quality. This is not an unreasonable thing to ask for.

>Get on it. (If you can, that is.)
Wonderful. And slightly pungent. Ok. We are now restored to /lit/ artificial post-time or whatever the fuck. On with the show then.

>>9666926
>It's not *mine,*
I don't care who's it is, just what "the problem of spacetime" is supposed to be. Stop dancing around the issue.

>>9666719
>get thrown a shitpost
>will respond to it seriously anyway
>don't know if this is thermodynamics at work or masochism

But to clarify to other anons here to which the "problem of spacetime" isn't clear, I will attempt to explain. Notice that I put it in spooky horror quotes. Why? Isn't spacetime just "is", as a matter of fact? But the question isn't attempting to do "physics revisionism", it's regarding the notion of "spacetime" as a limit to be overcome.

Quoting (the transcript of) Land:

>The blockchain solves the problem of spacetime. The problem of spacetime is that according to Einstein and the notion of spacetime says there is no such thing as absolute succession. Therefore there is not even time, in any distinctive sense- distinct from a dimension. That’s why spacetime is treated as a 4 dimensional structure. This is in the theorisation of the blockchain, the problem is approached through something called the ‘Byzantine’s General problem’ and the ‘Byzantine’s General problem’ is exactly the same as the problem of relativistic spacetime.

Now my retort is "black holes". Because it is the test case within Minkowskian spacetime for which the Byzantine General's problem does not suffice as an analogy. How do you get information into, or out, of a black hole? Which also happens to be an extreme end case for Capitalism. Blame!. The City. The City transposes capitalism-as-intelligence/information into capitalism-as-space, and if we accept the tenets of Minkowskian spacetime then capitalism-as-intelligence is posterior to the issue of capitalism-as-space.

We'll have to wait for Bitcoin and Time for the answer I suppose. Rehabilitating Kantian Transcendental Time after Einstein is no small feat.

>>9666949
ok ok ok ok ok horry jeebus mang

>>9666910
So, therein lies a good question. And I'd like to contribute another term to that: "consciousness." Probably best understood as separate question but to my mind it's next door. I still have some Heideggerian ish going on. Anyways.

>>9666950
Here we go.

>>9666950
This, incidentally, is the resurgence of the charge that "Deutschephysik" levels against the relativistic nature of physics discoveries that were being made at the time. And ofc you have scientists now who are like, no, relativism in physics does not imply relativism in the social sciences and they are correct, in a sense, because to conflate the two is to make a category error. But why the category error in the first place? We should be wary of being satisfied with simple mentions of logical fallacies as sufficient for meaning, because there is a deeper problem at play, namely, why are there separate categories at all? The subsequent "truce" was only possible because of an increasing divergence of the "social sciences" from the socially embodied creation that is man, but not before a lethal period of cross-fertilization where "relativism" infected the social sciences. Technically they're not even wrong because spacetime is literally relativistic, even though our "social space" is sufficiently thought of as Newtonian in nature. But now we can't go back to Newton because a "social space" is by definition, "created". So now that the social sciences positioned themselves "above" man their conceptual paradigms stand. We inherit the mistakes of our ancestors that we do not even realize are mistakes.

Nick Land will raise Thule.

>>9666950
>Isn't spacetime just "is", as a matter of fact?
No. It is a geometrical model for gravitational interaction. The brute fact is gravity, not spacetime.
>The problem of spacetime is that according to Einstein and the notion of spacetime says there is no such thing as absolute succession.
Perhaps he meant to say "succession in a universal frame of reference"? That would make this statement less tenuous. (It's already clear he's talking gibberish anyway.) But in the end it doesn't really matter, because
>Therefore there is not even time, in any distinctive sense- distinct from a dimension.
this is plain nonsense. An arbitrary demand for "distinctiveness". Distinctiveness from spatial dimensions? (Can't be -- the time dimension is indeed different in a qualitative sense from the spatial dimensions).
Also, Land has no fucking clue what "dimension" is supposed to mean in this context.
>That’s why spacetime is treated as a 4 dimensional structure.
No, that's not why AT ALL.

We are no closer to figuring out what the hell "the problem of spacetime" is supposed to be.
That time does not exist? You could make some arguments for that, but none of them hinge on spacetime (or 4-dimensional manifolds, more generally).
Or is it that determining the "succession" of events in different frames of reference is an utter conundrum?

Not that this matters either, because the Byzantine General's problem has nothing to do with any of it.

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>don't know if this is thermodynamics at work or masochism

Me neither, btw. There may not be a difference. Solar thermosadomasochism: to be erotically abused by the dissipation of the sun. If only George Bataille were here.

Anyways black hole STEM-shit fuck yeah.

>>9667005
I'm not sure how to respond to your retorts because you don't seem to have swallowed the meaning of what he intends to say. I'd recommend being charitable to the text transcript, because he was speaking, so the result tends to be imprecise. Not to mention transcription errors. And I didn't watch it because he is...not the best speaker.

Anyway the point of his mentioning the Byzantine General's problem is to use it as analogy between that and relativistic time (spacetime).

Now he shows that blockchain solves the Byzantine General's problem, thus it should be able to solve the problem of distributed computing and synchronization (and yes, market transactions) over vast amounts of space(time) where spacetime differences begin to matter.

Does that help?

>>9667005
>The brute fact is gravity, not spacetime.
Gravity, under the model of general relativity, is simply spacetime curvature. Not a force. Aside from its use as a semiotic marker, it can be dispensed with if we adopt the spacetime paradigm.

>>9667053
There is no analogy to speak of. The Byzantine General's problem is a communications problem. De-synchronisation with respect to different frames of reference has nothing to do with communication per se, even thought it makes communication more difficult. Solving the Byzantine Generals problem using the blockchain is neither here nor there. The computations themselves would not be in sync in different frames of reference. What clock (or ledger) you use does not affect the state of things.

>Does that help?
No. None of this is pertinent to spacetime.

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In a perfect world, this picture might describe the relationship of the economists, the physicists, and the philosophers. Physicists discover stuff, economists put it into public use, philosophers...uh...

Look, they do *something,* okay? I'm almost positive they do something. It has something to do with economics. And sort of with physics...sort of. At least that's the idea.

>they're lube, girardfag. psychic lube
>nooooooo
>look into your heart you know it to be true. esp if they don't study science or economics or philosophy of mind to go along with the continentals
>well i guess that's only fair. we do fight the boring darkmagic of positivism
>kek get rekt scrub positivism is the truth
>that's just, like, your opinion man. anyways eat peterson memes
>aaargh or something

>>9667084
Doesn't matter whether it is a force or not. Gravity, the natural phenomenon, is the given datum, not spacetime. Spacetime is a mathematical description of the phenomenon. That is to say, massive bodies interact _as if_ mass deforms an ambiant spatiotemporal structure which they then follow along. The existence of the structure cannot be ascertained outside of the model. The existence of gravity is reasonably certain regardless of the model used to describe it.

The map is not the territory.

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>The map is not the territory.

>and, added girardfag, although by this point nobody was any longer paying attention on account of the singularity distantly blossoming on the horizon, culture mysteriously explaining this process to itself in a way that neither suffocated nor wildly defragged it is arguably the fundamental underlying process of ritual, art, and mimesis, and which themselves composed of a restless constellation of ambiguous and overlapping questions including aesthetics, seduction, time, love, death, and god, in some intriguing uncertain order, relation, and intensity
>then he had to go to fucking work god damnit motherfucker fucking god damn capitalism fuck my face

>>9667100
You're thinking from the point of view of humans. Communication more difficult? But for who? Why do you care? But a Capitalism system spanning space where time dilation starts becoming a factor "cares". So the Byzantine Generals care that a majority attack all at the same time. Transpose the problem into some Space Generals across the vastness of space trying to figure out how to time their attack with the same restrictions put forth by the problem and you have your problem of spacetime.

>>9667105
Philosophy was the start of our end.

>The terminal stages are marked by a poetics of the not-yet-unintended-for-us, an admixture of human and machinic processes characterized by thanatonic exultation in the repudiation of anthropocentric hubris—an ecstatic despair, ‘a trance-like escalation’ in which ‘the mind loses itself’. What Jason Bahbak Mohaghegh refers to as ‘the pleasure of the spiral’.51 For Mohaghegh, the inscription of fatality into poetic production ‘reawakens us to the fact that thought itself is terminal’ and that ‘ideas are not meant to be haunted entities—they are meant to be hunted’; it is because of this that ‘we must rid literature of its survival instinct’.52 Mohaghegh’s conclusion that ‘chaos’—shorthand for a cybernetic approach to cosmic processes of becoming—‘reminds us that literature remains a mortal transaction and that we should not deprive ourselves of the pleasure of watching texts die’ benefits from a subtle rephrasing that brings it into better alignment with poememenal insurgency. Chaos reminds us that identity remains a mortal transaction and that we should not deprive literature of the pleasure of watching us die.

It is *auto-erotic asphyxiation*

>Still optimistic tho. No really
>Maybe trying to stop the end just makes the end better when it comes

>>9667122
Why not both? We can accept both gravity and spacetime because they are models of *something* But if we're talking in terms of spacetime, we don't need to talk about gravity for the sake for of parsimony. There's an exploding brain meme somewhere out there were "naive realism" is on top, "physics" is in the middle", and "metaphysics" in the end.

Ofc the last frame is pure existential horror.

Now you assert that "gravity" is a "given datum", so it is to be accepted as ontologically prior (my words). But also that "the structure cannot be ascertained outside of the model". Ok. But are our senses not a kind of "model" itself, albeit one which we cannot avoid positing? So if we cannot ascertain what our model refers to, then why should we accept gravity as ontologically prior?

>>9667169
>You're thinking from the point of view of humans. Communication more difficult? But for who? Why do you care?
I don't. You and Land do. And you are also under the mistaken impression that the blockchain somehow "solves" something it does not. (Whatever that something may be, since it's still not entirely clear.)

Not even going to address the rest since you have yet to demonstrate having a grasp on the words you use.

I doubt anyone here actually knows what even capitalism means (substituting any systematic understanding of capitalism with the vagaries of their impressions) in spite of throwing around all sorts of "capitalism as" this and that.

Shoddy analogies and idiotic metaphors. Continental philosophy in a nutshell.
What a joke.

>>9667191
Land has a *radically* different view of what the human is. The Shaman who convened with the Outside can't llook at humans the same way again.

Btw here's the full transcript if you wish to indulge yourself. Skip to the addendum for a summary of the "proof".

https://socialecologies.wordpress.com/2016/12/17/nick-land-the-blockchain-revolution-and-absolute-time/

>>9667166
I wish you well on your cannibalistic endeavors.

>>9667224
>Land has a *radically* different view of what the human is.
I fail to see how this is relevant. We were talking about spacetime (and its supposed problem), not humans.

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>>9667218
>being this indifferent to based questions about the ontology of capitalism
eat frog memes friendo

>srsly tho what is capitalism nobody fucking knows and that is the point. we have black holes and george bataille and cybernetics and philosophy and space-time and fucking everything under the sun, it's an embarrassment of riches, why can't i hold all these feels &c

>>9667224
And to you, and to one and all. Cheers gents. Has been a /lit/eral pleasure.

>>9667248
>>9667224
Also
>https://socialecologies.wordpress.com/2016/12/17/nick-land-the-blockchain-revolution-and-absolute-time/
this is a great link because I can mine it for more examples of Land having 0 clue what he's talking about. Example:

>He says “ Every general in the Byzantine’s general’s problem, just by verifying the difficulty of the proof of work chain can estimate how much parallel CPU power per hour was expended on it, and see that it must have required the majority of the computers to produce that much work in the allotted time… the proof of work chain is how all synchronisation, distributed data base, and global view problems you’ve asked about are solved.” And these problems synchronisation, distributed data base, and global view problems, they are the problems that relativistic spacetime says are impossible to solve.
Basically, Land is confused as fuck (I'm being charitable here; I actually think he's full of shit and aware of it). To dumb it down so that you'll get it:
He sees the word 'synchronisation' in one context, he sees it in another, then notices the blockchain works around synchronisation in the first context, and assumes it would work just as well in the second.
>the claim being made here is that the blockchain is Post-Spacetime
_Literal_ nonsense.

>>9667254
If anything, it's you who's indifferent to questions about the "ontology of capitalism" with how you ramble about it while understanding nothing of it.

>>9667276
Yes, in a certain sense, "synchronization" is being used in different ways. And that's the whole point! His claim is that the blockchain allows the creation of *artificial* absolute time. So "synchronization" within transcendental absolute time is different from "synchronization" within relativistic time. And he's not denying the existence of relativistic time (did you get that impression from him?) because that's part of his hypothesis. But black holes tho. Now i'm limited in how much I can respond to you because i'm not Land ofc

>tfw not Land
>maybe that's a good thing

>>9667309
Holy non-sequitur batman.
>he blockchain allows the creation of *artificial* absolute time
No it doesn't.
You can't even use the blockchain to keep time.
In fact, the proper functioning of the blockchain depends on proper time-keeping. So not only is Land utterly clueless about the theory of relativity, he also knows nothing about how the blockchain works.

Whowouldathunkit?

In summary: you faggots really should stop talking about stuff you know nothing about.

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>>9667281
You're really not wrong. Pic related is me.

Not indifferent. I'm more hypnotized, equal parts terror and fascination. Land broke the dial off that kind of hypnosis. Nobody seems to really have the final answer vis-a-vis capitalism. It involves too many complicated moving parts and too large a timeframe. Or, in a sense, lots of people have answers: Kant/Rand/Marx/Heidegger/Bozo the Clown/insert here. But no totalizing argument, imho, stands up completely. They all kind of swim around in the same pond. Lots of overlapping theories and no final or definitive answers - just things going on in human nature from one end to the other. Like a stadium-sized game of rock-scissors-paper without beginning or end. Everything connects to everything else. Hence the Deleuze interest.

So it's a kind of a learned uncertainty...indistinguishable from stupidity...which it actually is...but I *know* it's stupidity...rock, scissors, paper. I'm baffled by it, and I really don't intend to give the impression that I have any answers (as, I'm sure, I don't).

There will be a blog-containment mechanism for this weirdness soon. So definitely not indifferent. Mesmerized trending towards awe and delirium, fishing for interesting answers. /lit/ delivers more often than not, too.

>>9667359
Anyways I should have stopped with >>9667166. So I'll retcon that and call it a day, maybe more for a bit. Too much of a good thing and all.

Take care you sexy fucks.

>>9667325
I mean, what is time anyway? McTaggart covered this topic extensively. But the radical question is, can time be *created*? We've been unable to ask this question precisely because it's been dismissed out of a knee-jerk reaction. Kant got away with it. Transcendental idealism is a potent mindfucker. He was also "creating" Absolute Morality. Maybe that got him a free pass. And his Absolute Time slipped under the radar being antecedent to the discovery of general relativity. Then after general relativity we decided that Kantian time was "refuted". But now, for the very first time, we are able to *create* time technologically (actually we already have in theory, Land is just pointing it out), and you're like "lolno".

Matryoshka minds have just gotten more lethal.

>>9667359
I'll be taking a break too. Or phoneposting or whatever. Real interesting stuff.

>>9667419
> But now, for the very first time, we are able to *create* time technologically (
What part of you can't use the blockchain to keep time is so hard to understand? You can't use any computer program to keep time. The number of operations per second in a processing unit is highly irregular. That's why computers have separate embedded clocks in them.

You don't realise it, but you sound like an uninformed retard. So does Land.

>when the adderall stops working

Kant and 'Absolute time': 'no' https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-spacetime/#AbsoVsReal

>>9667592
>when the adderall stops working
>start snorting molly
>20 hour long intellectual masturbation session

So you raise a good point. Namely Kant denies that time has "absolute reality" but this not mean he is denying "absolute time". His brand of transcendental idealism is not relativist, because his "subjectivism" is the subjectivity of the perfectly rational mind.

>Therefore herein lies the transcendental ideality of time, according to which, if one abstracts from the subjective condition of our sensible intuition, it is nothing at all, and can be considered neither as subsisting nor as inhering in the objects in themselves (without their relation to our intuition). (A36/B52)

>>9667552
The processor that computes the blockchain exists within spacetime which is what allows it to run. Now if the blockchain does not allow the synchronization of *something* separated by spacetime then we really don't care about how it "keeps time" beyond functioning like a clock because it's still locally stuck in the relativity of spacetime. It's pure relativist subjectivism of an object. But if it can do this synchronization (and i'm convinced it can) then the way it "keeps time" (artificial time) is important. Because we've now transcendentally overcome the relativistic limitations of spacetime. Except the "artificial time" of the blockchain is nothing immediately like time *to our naivee sensory perceptions*, unless we abstract it in terms of teleological import (hence the Byz General Problem also elucidates a praxis of time). There's something counting down (or up there). And it can plan!

Think beyond the human. Think inhumanely. Kant went there and found God. Land went there and found...

But black holes tho. Black holes!

>>9667740
>Think beyond the human
Nothing you said has anything to do with being human.
>we've now transcendentally overcome the relativistic limitations of spacetime.
This is not right, it's not even wrong.

STOP. TALKING. ABOUT. SHIT. YOU. DON'T. UNDERSTAND!

>>9667756
>>9667740
Nothing about this whole discussion has anything to do with being human. There is not point to "thinking beyond the human" because we're not talking about human matters except insofar as the whole discussion is proving that you're a clueless twit.

Seriously, go find the nearest tree and hang yourself. Fucking brain dead pseud.

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>>9667740
my only regret is that i have but one (you) to give

although also that i cannot fedex a vintage landian pharmaceutical stimulus package to aid you in your navigation of black holes as the time dilates and the sensors slowly go haywire at the edge of the event horizon and you gaze into the kaleidoscopic wilderness beyond the veil

godspeed you smack emperor may your shit not fully collapse until there's a meltdown-tier post to show for it

>>9667756
>>9667765
>tfw in the habit of using "we"
>forget you're still human
No no, not us. You're right that this has nothing to do with being human. But *something* will have transcendentally overcome spacetime. You can't catch up. It will get to you no matter how much spacetime you put between you and it.
>might as well start hanging yourself too friendo

The Byzantine Generals problem has absolutely nothing to do with spacetime. (Incidentally, the problem is provably unsolvable -- but again, this is irrelevant since it has nothing to do with spacetime).
And there is nothing time-like about the blockchain. It's a fucking digital transaction ledger.

>>9667774
>>9667778
Kill yourselves.

I hope you do or did drugs guys or you will be losing half of his points

also if you are right wing you are getting deceived

fuck this shitty nepalese memetic cyberreality i am going raving

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>>9667794
>It's a fucking digital transaction ledger
And you should be all the more horrified for it. Kant was rewriting the structure of reality so that we could have the City of God but instead he jumpstarted Capitalism and we're getting the City of Hell.

Somebody fucking find someone with the Net Terminal Gene.

>Incidentally, the problem is provably unsolvable
Unprovable with math. >tfw they told you to do math instead and they were wrong

>>9667774
Speaking of Lacan I remember him having quite a clever solution in a problem involving disks and prisoners. I think it was called Logical Time or something but I can't find the original. Have you read it before?

>>9667853
>misread "Landian" as Lacan
>oh well
>it was productive anyway, is this what you call a Hyperstitial slip?

>>9667853
This is the one I think you mean. And yes, I read it. Interesting stuff of course.

>According to Lacan, the two pauses outlined above form part of the logical process, with logic here referring to the logic of the signifier. However, in the rush to the exit another form of pause arises, one that is not, however, highlighted by Lacan: the pause in A’s line of reasoning. It is here that the pause can best be understood as a pause between two instances – in this case A’s reasoning process before and after he makes his move towards the exit. This is one understanding of the pause that Lacan’s essay evokes, that of the pause between signifying moments, the pause between signifiers. For, if the pause is considered as a pause between, then the real emphasis of the pause is to highlight that which is to come.

http://heavysideindustries.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Logical-Time-and-the-Assertion-of-Anticipated-Certainty-A-New-Sophism.pdf

And commentary.
http://return.jls.missouri.edu/Lacan/NFFvol4no12/NFF412_Robert_Samuels.pdf

>>9667863
kek

>>9667900
Exactly that. The "suspended motions" and simultaneity are very relevant.

Perhaps consuming that would clear up the other anon's grievances regarding blockchain "artificial" time. What is important is the calculation that is synchronized across spacetime even though no doubt there will be plenty of pauses in transcendental time as one waits for packets to arrive. And redundancy and simultaneity too.

>>9667931
Scratch that, what I said was clumsy as fuck.

>already on the comedown fug

Instead imagine that the three prisoners are spread out across spacetime such that relativity becomes an issue. Now how will they solve their predicament?

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>>9667900
Losing your mind and sliding into a Deleuzian mess seems an entirely sensible way of concluding a long analytical relationship with Lacan.

I would be interested to read a story about a day in the life of some poor, battered, 20C subject in an anonymous city whose life more or less emulates, Ulysses-style (fuck yeah originality!), all the rug-pulling that has happened in continental philosophy during the 20C. From slightly before Nietzsche to Derrida, just a series of continual slides and abstractions, like how Picasso goes from classical form to cubist weirdness and probably beyond. How we got from there to here. One long slow slippage, ever widening, between sign and signifier and eventually disappearing into wherever the fuck we are now.

>clean your room bucko
>you stay out of this internal j-pete, this is something different and before you got here

>Perhaps consuming that would clear up the other anon's grievances regarding blockchain "artificial" time.
Perhaps. Or just us being, inevitably, squishy meatbag humans for whom things rarely if ever turn out the way we would like.

>nstead imagine that the three prisoners are spread out across spacetime such that relativity becomes an issue. Now how will they solve their predicament?
I'm thinking via a pretty cool Hollywood film, probably prominently featuring a large blue glowing orb. Which would be better than my own mournful slice of faux-European pretension above.

That's a meme answer tho. Honestly? I don't know. I'm here to learn from you more sciencey guys, the only technology I understand are Van Gogh paintings and Stendhal. Beyond that your guess is as good as mine.

Maybe some time-rigged Derek Parfit-style clone-teleporters, though...hm...sort of like The Prestige, but in space...

>>9660440
My man, you fail to understand my point. I'm not so much longing for a perfect being, I'm longing for a Nietzschean man of determination who creates values simply by asserting his will onto the world.

And it's not about being saved, it's the deliberate return to slavery in exchange of a vision. Liberty is to be substituted by purpose. By performing such a leap of faith, God returns back to life and good and evil become valid categories again. Democracy in general is boring and direct democracy is only insofar interesting as it produces tyrants more easily than liberal democracy.

>>9667863
The slip-up is understandable. They're both charlatans with a cult following.

>>9662416
In my eyes, freedom is the pursuit of desire.
Although that is limited by desire.
So I think transcendental freedom is being without desire.

Not simply by realizing your desires (like buying a Porsche), but by realizing that many (if not all) of your desires cause suffering and you can let them go. Realizing your desires are not the be-all end-all basically.

Ironically freedom can not exist without limitation, otherwise everything is just infinite chaos. I don't think anyone desires to live like that.

>>9666203
blogpost related:
https://larvalsubjects.wordpress.com/2011/07/02/deterritorialization/

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>>9668191
>In this connection, we encounter the root behind Deleuze and Guattari’s characterization of the unconscious as a theatre and the unconscious as a factory. In this context, the theatre is a milieu of representation that perpetually strives to trace the formations of the unconscious back to some model: the familial structure. Interpretations of the unconscious based on the model of theatre literally domesticate the formations of the unconscious, reterritorializing them on the family structure. One’s relationship to one’s boss becomes a relationship to one’s mother or father. By contrast, a factory is something that produces something other than itself. Deleuze and Guattari take Freud and Lacan seriously when they claim that the symptom is a solution to a problem. Their aim is to examine the manner in which the symptom, the formations of the unconscious, are inventive deterritorializations that strive to solve a particular deadlock of jouissance generating a new possibility of life and existence. Rather than inhibit the symptom by tracing it back to some sort of familial drama, they adopt a functional approach to the symptom, asking what sort of machine it is, what it is doing, how it functions and what new possibilities it offers for the agent. This is why they forbid the art of interpretation. “Do not interpret, do not seek a signified, do not ask what it means,” they say, “but rather ask what it does!”

So of course this is one of the things with Land, which was to deduce one - and in some sense, perhaps the saddest and most mediocre conclusion - from this process: that fabulous machine deduced by D&G is destined to make only Capital. Heartbreaker. I think partly the force of Land's vision of the future proceeds from how utterly, McDiculously, retardedly awesome C&S is a text. Which means that it's powers can, sadly, also be used For Evil As Well As Good. To some degree that is what Land does with it. Maybe out of despair, though. Or whatever. It's rapidly becoming a part of intellectual history anyways...

>In proceeding in this way, like any good factory, it produces something new through subtraction and becomes an entity that itself acts in the world.

Isn't it beautiful? Certainly makes "writer's block" hard to justify (muh inner fascism!). If whatever you are writing can escape the relentless gravitational pressure of the temptation to write some meme shit Because Reasons you might wind up writing something wonderful. And potentially the less it *means* the better. Would be nice to think so anyways. Great advice for writers.

>>9668301
>, perhaps the saddest and most mediocre conclusion - from this process: that fabulous machine deduced by D&G is destined to make only Capital. Heartbreaker.

This is what interests me about Left Accelerationism and what it's in the MAP.

>The philosopher Nick Land captured this most acutely, with a myopic yet hypnotising belief that capitalist speed alone could generate a global transition towards unparalleled technological singularity. In this visioning of capital, the human can eventually be discarded as mere drag to an abstract planetary intelligence rapidly constructing itself from the bricolaged fragments of former civilisations. However Landian neoliberalism confuses speed with acceleration. We may be moving fast, but only within a strictly defined set of capitalist parameters that themselves never waver. We experience only the increasing speed of a local horizon, a simple brain-dead onrush rather than an acceleration which is also navigational, an experimental process of discovery within a universal space of possibility. It is the latter mode of acceleration which we hold as essential.

Essentially, can Acceleration of Technology be divorced from Capitalism. Everything coming out of the Williams and Srnicek camp is pretty vague about how that happens, but it's a question worthy of a hard answer.

Instead of looking forwards, I'm currently doing some research looking backwards. Everyone seems to posit the ideological forerunners of Accelerationism as Marx and Nietzsche. But I'm thinking the general process can be seen as early as Christ. And of course, Virilio takes the process back to a prehistoric age, when a differentiation of labor and gender roles created the 'Woman of Burden' as the first domesticated animal, so that men were lightened and able to hunt with weapons.

>>9668387
http://criticallegalthinking.com/2013/05/14/accelerate-manifesto-for-an-accelerationist-politics/

link to the Manifesto for Accelerationist Politics in case you guys haven't read it.

>>9668301
Fascism is an easier and more practical way for hijacking Oedipus than going schizo.
You just transfer your Oedipus to the State rather than to your children. That way, you can become free forever.

I'm having trouble reading D&G knowing what I know, It's impossible to separate the author from the book when Guattari was that pathetic.

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Long post inbound.

>>9668301
Also, all that is emancipating about difference in C&S is horribly annulled if we think of dystopia-Capital as being a sort of Last Man's version of the eternal recurrence of the same...the McNugget lives, Windows upgrades to its next iteration and everyone else grinds out their existence waiting for the rain. If the future keeps up on this trajectory it may not even be the Pikettian Sense and Sensibility future but something more like ancient Egypt.

Basically, the one thing continental theory teaches you is that just when you think you're really depressed, there's always a way to feel even worse. But beyond a certain horizon you have to just laugh, I guess. It can ultimately all become so unbelievably hideous that you can't help it.

Future Egypt is also a dope setting. Looks kind of like Tron...and Egyptian motifs were popular in Art Deco too, the last time we fabulously wealthy people right before the shit hit the fan...
>yer mind is like a teeny canoe
>what does that mean internal self
>it's small and shallow and too flimsy for them winds
>right ok i see that

>>9668387
>Essentially, can Acceleration of Technology be divorced from Capitalism.
The question that basically splits the left from the right, no? Once Land thought yes, now not so much. Fascinating question too, culturally. But now that he's in China he's following a new narrative over there now, I think. Right/left doesn't seem to work as much in Shanghai. Or so we're told, I suppose.

>But I'm thinking the general process can be seen as early as Christ.
This ought to be good. Explain? Abstract clock-time in the pre-modern West might begin with the Benedictine calendar, so...but where does Christ fit in?

>And of course, Virilio takes the process back to a prehistoric age, when a differentiation of labor and gender roles created the 'Woman of Burden' as the first domesticated animal, so that men were lightened and able to hunt with weapons.
Yep. Where and when Time Began is a pretty big question. I think the Weber/Land theses make a lot of sense. But of course the frame is always enlarging.

>>9668390
Yeah, this is required reading.
>It is Marx, along with Land, who remains the paradigmatic accelerationist thinker.
You have to admit that's rarefied air for the political left. In case anyone was wondering if Land was being oversold.

>>9668411
That's it. Have you read Klaus Theweleit? Male Fantasies is required reading for fascist cultural anthropology.

>>9668431
>his ought to be good. Explain? Abstract clock-time in the pre-modern West might begin with the Benedictine calendar, so...but where does Christ fit in?

Still working through it, but I'm analyzing some of christ's miracles and parables in terms of entropy/surplus, economy and the notion of eternity. Maybe it's silly to apply such concepts to a demigod who can apparently break the second law of thermodynamics, but I think it's worth doing. Still reaching conclusions, going to see if I can work this into an article and get it up somewhere.

>>9668431
I am just getting started on the mindset, to be honest. The angst of living in this shitty reality, where a meme is worth more than an actual opinion, where an animenigga is just a cuck shilling for certain Twitter users who believe a return to the past or even to early eighteenth century Europe is possible, that's what got me here.
I am reading Deleuze and Guattari at the moment. Very powerful reading and paradigm shift.
Thank you, I know what I am reading later.

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>>9668411
Also, reading Theweleit really, really makes me want to get out the Space Marines or X-Men or something. I find reading theory and nerd stuff kind of go hand in glove like that in this weird way. The more you learn how fascism works the more you want to LARP it virtually. I don't know. Good book tho.

>>9668449
Cool, good luck. Post cool excerpts if you can. I used to be very skeptical about the relevance of the Church in the 21C, but increasingly I find I like what I'm hearing. The worse and weirder things get, the more attractive theology becomes. I mean to tackle Aquinas at some point, though I don't know when.

>>9668484
You're in for a treat then. D&G are *awwwwwwwwwesome.* Hope the other reading works out for you too. For The Emprah and all.

>Girardfag is EVOLVING
>Girardfag is now Landfag

>>9668431
>Future Egypt
WE

>>9668449
Seconded in being interested in this. And how it relates to Christ btfoing the temple hawkers. He did just call them thieves though...
>gotta kill the business competition

>>9668500
MacIntyre on Aquinas will be, I think, worthwhile in exploring that avenue. I haven't gotten to his Thomistic turn yet, but it's getting there.

>>9668420
What we now know about D&G invalidities and calls into question a lot of their philosophy, while /lit/ still masturbates to them post-deleuzian scholars saw the writing on the wall years ago and have moved considerably away from Deleuze and shifted towards Baudrillard, even DeLanda is pivoting more and more towards Heidegger theses days.

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>>9668534
Never!
>maybe
>possibly pic related
Landfag? I'm just getting used to this name tho. We'll see. If I had an avatar to go with this handle it would be the dancing broom from Fantasia.

Girard is still the boy for now because in the end I still subscribe to the idea of memes and desire as being what makes the whole world turn. They're the most ephemeral things of all, but if the reason *why* we need all of this capital is ultimately psychological, then I think that psychology is properly understood as being mimetic in nature just as Girard describes it.

Also Deleuze is a god-tier metaphysician and he's there in everything Land is saying. But Nick Land might bump somebody off my 3x3 chart pretty soon. We'll see.

Incidentally, Akira is in the penthouse of the Acceleration film canon.

>>9668559
WUZ

>MacIntyre on Aquinas will be, I think, worthwhile in exploring that avenue. I haven't gotten to his Thomistic turn yet, but it's getting there.
I'm fully and wholly amped whenever I see those Catholic threads on /lit/ these days. I don't know what this means. Nietzsche is for all-time of course but yeah. Thomism. I like ethics, I like Confucius...we'll see about that too.

>>9668561
>more Baudrillard
>more Heidegger
Sweet. Sweet sweetness.

Is Guattari underrated tho? I've seen some people really like him, recommending Brian Holmes and so on. I read Chaosmosis and he seemed like an interesting guy. Got a little weird with the Schizomatic Cartographies or whatever but still. Deleuze may be like John and Paul to his George/Ringo, but still.

>>9668601
WUZ > WILLZ BE

>>9668601
Akira is doubly accelerationist when you realize it was produced in the height of the Japanese economic bubble. They had all that spare capital and had to put it into *anything*. And decided on anime. We will probably never get something of Akira's quality ever again.

>bubbles popping are only because of the loss of faith of human expectations
>the human is the problem
>eliminate the human for infinite growth

>>9668449
have you read Mitchell Heisman's suicide note?

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>>9668634
>Akira is doubly accelerationist when you realize it was produced in the height of the Japanese economic bubble. They had all that spare capital and had to put it into *anything*. And decided on anime. We will probably never get something of Akira's quality ever again.
Fucking hell. That's crazy to think about. Loss of faith of human expectations...and they always have one of the highest suicide rates too.

I'm going to go Full Weeb here for a second but holy hannah we are so fortunate to actually have that wonderful, inscrutable, mysterious little island over there. For one thing it's like going through the looking glass for philosophers. When Heidegger gets there, they ask him what took him so long to figure Being out. Lacan is confounded, saying he can't do analysis there. Barthes is enchanted down to his toes. Baudrillard, well - check this out:

>JB: I had an experience with simulation and the simulacrum. Nowadays I have had enough of it - 20 years of it, or almost, is enough! Something interesting happened to me recently on this subject, in relation to Japan. There was an erudite Japanese who had come to interview me and I asked him why for a number of years he had been translating my books I had not received any word of it. I had been translated there several times before, and I had been told at that time "Ah, simulation and the simulacrum! In Japan you are an important spokesman." So I asked him why I no longer heard about readers' reactions and he told me, "But it is very simple, very simple you know. Simulation and the simulacrum have been realized. You were quite right: the world has become yours... and so we no longer have any need of you. You have disappeared. You have been volatilized in reality, or in the realization of hyperreality. It is over. In terms of theory, we no longer need you, and there is no longer a need to defend your theories." That is the paradox of utopia made real; it clearly makes every utopian dimension perfectly useless.

http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=66

I don't know if that story is made up but does it even matter. Does it matter. It's too good! I like Peterson but they would fuck his shit up too.

I read somewhere in a book on Wabi-Sabi that the idea was that it contained a conception of the universe that said it had either evolved out of nothing or was evolving into nothing. And possibly both at the same time. Bam! Zen mode activated.

The Japanese been playing fun tricks with Western thought for a century. May it ever be so.

>>9668662
>Mitchell Heisman's suicide note
>suicide note
>note
>1905 pages
>note

>>9668683
>I don't know if that story is made up but does it even matter.
True, maybe it doesn't matter. And i'm not talking about the story itself (though it could be just that) but the contents of the social exchange. Maybe the Japanese guy was merely being polite. It's more than likely really. After having complimented Baudrillard for being popular, he would have to grapple with the dissonance of the lack of reactions to him. And so his answer. Which was not quite a lie, but not quite the truth either. Which probably was simply the lack of interest aside from the initial novelty.

Yet the concept of "only being polite" is one that already contains the judgemental gaze of the truth over it. The notion of "but what was left out?" hangs over its head. But for the Japanese I imagine it "closes the circle". There has to be a way to communicate the truth artfully, leaving both parties with dignity, never the naked truth. Truth doesn't care about shared social realities. It tears them down, sometimes entire civilizations.

Ritual suicide of course closes the physical circle. Untruth cannot be indefinitely sustained. Conflict is sometimes inevitable, which has to end in the elimination of the other. But suicide retains one's dignity, while also saving the would-be murderer from the pollution of murder (borrowing the Greek concept of *miasma* with all its moral connotations). So in a twisted way, it's a win-win condition.

>>9668662
>tfw he would've been still alive had he only waited a few more years

>>9668752
With a bibliography!
>What suicide note is incomplete without a bibliography?