How do Buddhists reconcile samsara and transmigration with no

>>9613406
It's always fun to see these issues from the outsider perspective. It is very likely that we've misunderstood their idea of self, or lack of it.

where are all the boddhisatvas of lit?
bump

>>9613406
Not an answer to your question but that graphic is misleading. Brahman makes up everything. Including the Atman cycle

>>9613625
yaeh i realized that when i posted...

>>9613406
I think Buddhist question wether we can really call Brahman a Self

File: 35._Portrait_of_Wittgenstein.jpg (27KB, 405x563px) Image search: [Google]

27KB, 405x563px

>ill take care of this

File: tumblr_op9wd0co4o1rvgznuo1_1280.jpg (283KB, 1080x1080px) Image search: [Google]

283KB, 1080x1080px

no idea but i'm ready for vedanta/buddhist conversation

>>9613406
Samara and transmigration are only achievable with the acceptance of no self. I could go into it, but it's difficult to explain. I see what I am not in my

>>9613980
Samara and transmigration are only achievable with the acceptance of no self. I could go into it, but it's difficult to explain. I see what I am not in my reflection but when I observe and look upon others, and even things. Hesse describes it all very well in Siddhartha.

Bodhisattva here, I think traditionally it is maintained that rebirth is more a matter of cause and effect relationship between aggregates or bundles of perception, not a simple or discrete unit which is continually reincarnated. That said, however, certain viewpoints regarding Buddha Nature do seem to imply that there is a "true self" so take that as you will. A lot of the argumentation is more academic or dogmatic than grounded in experience, so I would advise to not become overly obsessed and instead trust practice to reveal the truth beyond paradox, dialectic, and language.

"Now, in the East the notion of measure has not played nearly
so fundamental a role. Rather, in the prevailing philosophy in the
Orient, the immeasurable (i.e. that which cannot be named,
described, or understood through any form of reason) is
regarded as the primary reality. Thus, in Sanskrit (which has an
origin common to the Indo-European language group) there is a
word ‘matra’ meaning ‘measure’, in the musical sense, which is
evidently close to the Greek ‘metron’. But then there is another
word ‘maya’ obtained from the same root, which means ‘illu-
sion’. This is an extraordinarily significant point. Whereas to
Western society, as it derives from the Greeks, measure, with all
that this word implies, is the very essence of reality, or at least
the key to this essence, in the East measure has now come to be
regarded commonly as being in some way false and deceitful. In
this view the entire structure and order of forms, proportions,
and ‘ratios’ that present themselves to ordinary perception and
reason are regarded as a sort of veil, covering the true reality,
which cannot be perceived by the senses and of which nothing
can be said or thought." -Some crazy physicist

>>9613625
It does but what the graphic means is union with the eternal, blissful brahman

Buddhism is bootlegged Gnosticism.

You're going about this the wrong way if you think language is going to get you anywhere. Buddhism isnt a philosophy in the greek/western sense.

This samsara is without discoverable beginning. Ignorance is conditioned by the taints of delusion, hatred and greed, and they in turn are conditioned by ignorance.

"Is there a way to end this samsara, which is without discoverable beginning?"

There is such a way, and this way is this Eightfold Path, which is right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. This way leads to Nibbana, which is perfect enlightenment in this world.

"Wonderful, excellent! This channer has truly expounded the Dhamma well! But what is the realisation of this Nibbana, which is perfect enlightenment in this world?"

Nibbana is realised when this conditioned being is penetrated by direct perception and perfect wisdom of the impermanence and no-self of the five aggregates and the six sense-bases. Nibbana is unconditioned, perfected and dustless seeing. When this has been realised you will think thus: the work has been done, the spiritual life has been lived, there is no coming back to any previous state.

"Wonderful, excellent! This channer has truly expounded the Dhamma well!"

Upon hearing these words OP immediately attained the dustless, stainless wisdom and saw the Dhamma with perfect clarity.

the re-incarnation cycle happens within maya, the word itself is derived from aryan root "may" for change. so maya itself is a system of changes devoid of reality.

buddhist goal is to break out of maya

>>9615017

Even though Buddhism existed hundreds of years before Gnosticism and has almost nothing in common with it.

>>9615214
that sounds gnostic

>>9615238
>Even though Buddhism existed hundreds of years before Gnosticism
True; but Gnosticism is mostly used as the umbrella term for movements which deem Creation and/or the Creator as unfit/inferior/ not worthwhile.

>has almost nothing in common with it.
I know there are many branches of Buddhism now, but just to refer to some original points from the Buddha's teachings:

>anti-somatic principle
>anti-cosmic principle
>being is suffering
>Maya, the demon-god of the World/Illusion

sure bud, none at all.

>>9615244
gnostics dont question individuation of souls as far as i could discern. they usually want to disengage them from alienated mode but not merge them all into one.

>>9615265
I tend to disagree. Most gnostic belief ascertain that the divine soul / spark which is prisoner in the inferior world of matter must undergo the process or returning to the Pleroma - which literally is "The All". Also, there are very complex cosmogonies in gnosticism which expand upon the Divine Fall, the Genesis of (sub)creations and of Man within, and have a great deal in describing the process of soul individuation (for example in manicheism with the divine tears) and re-integration.

>>9615238

Neither model puts much emphasis on History.

>>9615284
dunno, most gnostic texts i read seem optimistic about some kind of possibility of happiness in an alternative reality, once soul liberation is achieved, while B are all about self-denial and uncompromising pessimism. a G may recognize a fellow comrade in a B, but it wouldnt go both ways.

>>9613406
Meditation

>>9613406
>How do Buddhists reconcile samsara and transmigration with no self?
There is nothing to reconcile. To embrace Buddhism is to embrace process philosophy.

Let me use one of the Greeks whose thought is less foreign to exemplify some of this.

The originator of process philosophy in Western philosophy is Heraclitus, who is the closest to Eastern thought - in the latter process philosophy is the mainstream instead of being historically a minority view.

Heraclitus says that a man cannot cross the same river twice because the river isn't the same and neither is the man. There is nothing essential, irreplaceable about (we would say: the molecules in) the water or the man to ensure that there is such thing as essence/soul/thing in itself of the river or man. Everything is accidental and impermanent, nothing is essential and permanent, specifically for Heraclitus everything is subject to change except for change itself. There is no being, only Becoming.

In Hinduism you have the Atman which is the inner, deepest, immortal essence of the self, as well coincident with the divine immanence present in all things.

In Buddhism you have Anatta which is the rejection of this. Not surprisingly, Buddhism also rejects the Brahman/Ishvara as the originating, transcendent divine, closest to God as understood by Western theism.

Heraclitus, however, does believe that all is one without considering individual essences present within things, he's a monist pantheist, not a panentheist like the Hindu Brahmins. Buddhism rejects essentialism, panentheism and pantheism.

What happens when you trasmigrate in Buddhism? Information rearranges itself, not unlike when you learn new things or forget them, or gain or lose weight. This doesn't require a "self." That you have a first-person perception of continuity says nothing about having a soul or interesting personality.

Buddhism doesn't presuppose individual souls, the unity of all things, or a transcendent originating principle. Something similar happens in Western sciences such as physics and psychology.

Still, Buddhism does believe in the supernatural but becoming a deva doesn't make you God, singular and upper case G, it does not make you immortal, you just live longer, and you still need the Dharma to get out of this mess.

>>9615251
>Gnosticism is mostly used as the umbrella term for movements which deem Creation and/or the Creator as unfit/inferior/ not worthwhile.
Not anymore, read Brakke. Buddhism doesn't care for creation or a demiurge.

>Maya, the demon-god of the World/Illusion
The Pali Canon doesn't even talk about maya beyond Maya being the Buddha's mother's name. It talks about distortion, vipallasa. Maya is not a person in non-Theravada Buddhism.

>>9615338
cont.

What happens when you do get liberated? You stop changing, for starters.

So if I am free from this cycle of becoming, does it mean I start being? Does the Dhamma reveal a loophole through which I can be actualized as eternal, as essential, as a soul? Am I "saved", then? Am I in Heaven?

There is no being, no essence, remember? To answer those questions, according to Theravada Buddhism, you are not. Literally.

Nibbana is when you won't have to worry about either becoming or being.

Congratulations: like the Buddha you have succeded in fucking off.

>>9615338
>Buddhism doesn't care for creation or a demiurge.

Agree, but I am not implying Buddhism and Gnosticism are one. They clearly have different scopes; I am just trying to point out that there are some key concepts which are fairly similar and denote some kind of common nucleus.

After all, you have proved influence of Buddhism in Manicheism and there are clear elements of buddhist concepts in some ancient greek schools of thought (pythagoreics for one). They even found statues of Buddha wearing a toga around Athens / 300 BC.

File: ernst fuchs.jpg (365KB, 706x1000px) Image search: [Google]

365KB, 706x1000px

>>9615338
>>9615356
>Something similar happens in Western sciences such as physics and psychology.

I must say, this all sounds like bringing Dennett in through the backdoor. Neither the reductive talk of Materialism nor the esoteric talk of Buddhism have detracted anything from the immanent Self. The plethora of smoke and mirrors that Materialists say are behind the Self and allegedly disprove it require a Self to operate in any capacity. I have found that nothing in the Buddhist model can escape this predicament either. Process and becoming are strictly apophatic ideas, in relation to the Self. Note that the Self in the Gnostic sense is something like the Self in Subjective Idealism, so not the sum of Phenomenal experience and the curator of memories thereof, but the immanent thread of judgement that is refracted into Personas from and among which entropic things like Time or Space emerge before collapsing under their own impotence to match the Truth and Goodness of pure Self-reflection.

>>9615423
>require a Self to operate in any capacity. I have found that nothing in the Buddhist model can escape this predicament either.

I can't speak for Materialists but as a Buddhist I can easily tell you this is a semantics issue. In Buddhism the self is a far greater concept than an observer or mover. Explanations are muddied by the fact that people often use colloquial definitions of the self when explaining no self or true self which is compounded by the fact that no self and true self refer to the same thing ultimately.

>>9615423
>I must say, this all sounds like bringing Dennett in through the backdoor.
I would think Hume and the bundle theory of self.

I don't feel qualified to debate in favor or against process philosophy compared to object-oriented ontology or more classical substance metaphysics, I simply can't help seeing impemanence all around me, and if I was unchanging I wouldn't be able to learn anything.

>>9615448
>no self and true self refer to the same thing
The "great self" predates the state of Arhat.

The Arhat doesn't acknowledge the sense of both 'I am' and 'this I am.'

If there was such thing as a true self, as per Anicca (impermanence) it would stop being the true self the next moment. Selfhood is illusory.

File: budizm.png (31KB, 1003x347px) Image search: [Google]

31KB, 1003x347px

>>9613406
Buddhists are the ultimate nihilist extinction cult.

>>9615546
Are you implying extinction is bad?

>>9615691
No.

>>9615251
>Buddhism
>creator

Try again

Advaita vedanta is a form of Hinduism, what does the second paragraph that have to do with your question about Buddhism?

>>9615251
>being is suffering

Being is being in Buddhism. It is all and every experience realized at once. When you lean on the table and you, the table, support who is leaning on you. It is push and pull. Nothing is just -this- it is this-that.

>>9615976
I think that poster meant 'Existence is suffering.'

>>9615979
You missed the point. Changing being to existence isn't really all that different from being, for what is existence without being? The idea here is that it is all neutral and it is all encompassing. As one experiences joy, and one suffering, both exist just as well as a part of the whole of existence. No one experience is definitive of existence. This realization absolves one of even suffering as much as it does joy as wingtips of a spectrum but as the body in flight.

As I said earlier, read Siddhartha. Hesse simplified it all very well and understandably. Far better than I can even with my decade of practice.

>>9616084
>read Siddhartha
By Hesse? Why would I read that book for an in depth explanation of Buddhist concepts? You realize that Siddhartha isn't a book about the Buddha and that its protagonist is a man who deviates from the Buddha's teachings while being portrayed positively, don't you? I'm not doubting that you've spent ten years meditating, as I know meditation and theoretical knowledge of Buddhist texts aren't necessarily connected, but please don't insult me like this.

Ven. Dr. M. Punnaji commentary and elaboration on Majjhima Nikaya sutta 38 - Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Sutta (The Greater Discourse On The Destruction of Craving) during the weekly Sutta Class on 5th June 2017 at the Buddhist Maha Vihara.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJfAs9Yqr8k

reminder that there is experience instead of existence

>>9616159
I'm just saying. It's more an in depth of explanation that some people may not ever achieve enlightenment by strict adherence to teachings. Do you not know of Siddhartha's friend Govinda? The whole idea is that for some, true enlightenment isn't achieved through teachings but mistakes. That an answer may never be fully understood if it is simply followed.
I myself had to die very painfully to realize this. But when my body carried on the world was more beautiful than I can ever explain. All of it. The so called good and the bad. It's all as it is supposed to be and I live as I am supposed to. It was something I could read about and understand. But once I experienced it first hand, I realized I never understood even the slightest beyond the surface.
True I had to suffer very greatly for the decade I began my practice heavily. But it was only suffering because I did not truly understand as I do now.

>All these il/lit/erates falling for the "self is real" meme

Zen Buddhist here, you've been played for a bunch of suckers. Enjoy your delusion, famalamalams

>>9615244
>>9615251
>>9615265
>>9615284
Y'all got it all wrong
Trying to compare belief systems like that

Why not instead rejoice in the fact that belief systems stemming from such different cultures share so much (and some things not so much)?

It is in the overlap between religions that truth is found. Not in a particular one.

>>9616210
Shut the fuck up.

>>9616284

Who will bear witness to the disillusioning and of what harm will it be if I am indeed a phantom and will dissipate?

>>9613406
Samsara is Nirvana

File: 1450850383795.jpg (20KB, 469x256px) Image search: [Google]

20KB, 469x256px

>>9616288
>It is in the overlap between religions that truth is found.

>>9616312
Alright.

>>9616288
>>It is in the overlap between religions that truth is found. Not in a particular one.
no. religious people and secular humanists are stuck a the ''oneness'' like here
>>9615284
>which literally is "The All".


it is already better to be stuck here than some secular humanist who spends his day with speculations, but it is not enough.

>>9614021
That was actually really fucking interesting, thanks for that.

>>9615493
>if I was unchanging I wouldn't be able to learn anything.

If you didn't have a permanence in you then there couldn't be anything that was learning things and relating them to itself.

>>9615546
Zen Buddhist monks are allowed to get married.

>>9616434
Believe me that I do believe in maya and in Oneness and etc

But do you really think your exact version of the entire reality, of the All is the exact correct version? Do you really think humans are capable of producing a work (such as a religious text) that is perfect and encompasses the All?

>>9616530
Japanese Zen is to original Buddhism what modern Lutheranism is to the Desert Fathers.

It's designed to comfortably fit into a secular society rather than making society confirm to itself. Lukewarm shit.

>>9616604
Found the Buddha!

It's a moot point

File: ernst fuchs.jpg (289KB, 1100x792px) Image search: [Google]

289KB, 1100x792px

>>9615423
>tfw

>>9613406
it's the same self (or nonself) being eternally transmigrated.

>>9615546
The thing about this though is that as Nietzsche points out (although I do think this guy clearly has read Nietzsche) is that the desire to erase life after seeing it as worthless is itself subjective and arbitrary. You could very well praise life.

Seeing life as not having an intrinsic purpose is cognitive, of the mind. If you look at it objectively and rationally, you can come to the conclusion that meaning is arbitrary, because if there was a meaning, it would have to itself be meaningful for some reason, and so on etc.

Deciding that we therefore should hate life is an emotional decision which has no relation to the cognitive dismissal of any purpose to life.

>>9616961
yeah, all ethics come down to muh feels. some feels are more compelling than others though.

>How do Buddhists reconcile samsara and transmigration with no self?

By rejecting any ultimate continuum.

Conventionally there is a 'continuum' and from death to new birth is like making an imprint in clay. A pattern is imprinted even if the karmic 'printing-die' is then destroyed.

The salistambha sutra explicitly states "there is nothing whatsoever that transmigrates from this world to another world."

>>9613987
>Hesse describes it all very well in Siddhartha.

Hesse didn't understand Buddhism and that book doesn't represent Buddhism, it represents some kind of advaita.

>>9614008
>hat said, however, certain viewpoints regarding Buddha Nature do seem to imply that there is a "true self" so take that as you will.

Not really in Indian or Indo-Tibetan Buddhism.
This ideas are sensationalized by contemporary people that only read poor English translations of the tathagatagarbha sutras.

>>9613987
Bump for reading Siddartha then re-visiting the whole Buddhist cycle thing.
Some entry level Buddhist history and theology books or lectures would help too.

A 4chan thread is a clumsy way to approach the topic when more streamlined and focused avenues are available. I'm not sure if it's a super pleb thing to recommend but the Great Courses lecture series on Buddhism is a good start. The professor is a bit quirkier than necessary but it was a good comprehensive intro.

>>9615493
>Selfhood is illusory

Holy shit. Mind blown. Any other basic Buddhist knowledge you feel the need to bestow on a fellow Buddhist?

>>9616495
Not him but that's not true. You can refine your learning process therefor whatever mechanics are used for learning can constantly shift.

>>9616564
>Believe me that I do believe in Oneness

For a /lit/ forum, so many people have dumbass ideas about what Buddhism is about. It isn't about "oneness" or "all is one". These are explicitly identified as delusory deviations.

>>9617323
>I'm not sure if it's a super pleb thing to recommend but the Great Courses lecture series on Buddhism is a good start.

Definitely a pleb thing. Eckel is a nice guy and has an interest in trying to understand parts of madhyamaka, but he is far from a buddhological expert, and like so many in comparative religion, gets a lot about Buddhism wrong.

>>9615926
Nobody has answered my fucking question yet. Is OP just retarded?

>>9617936
Ur retarded. Not all vedantics are advaita.

ITT: the unenlightened play ego games with words

this is dead on accurate. I remember alan watts explaining among the lines with the hindu thought by saying the hindu connected illusion to the word "that" because it implied a separation. The whole point of eastern religion, along lines of this guy, according to watts, is that you are IT.

In Theravada, a karmic stream exists that allows for transmigration of one's karmic progress.
In Mahayana, the spirit continues on, but the spirit is also empty. It exists in the system.

>>9617941
Is there vedanta Buddhism, though?

>>9617944
Thinks clarifying buddhadharma is an unenlightened activity.

Nirodha when?

>>9613406
The vaisnavas say buddhists are atheists. At most, they believe in fusing with the brahmajyoti

>>9617960
>The whole point of eastern religion, along lines of this guy, according to watts, is that you are IT.

Watts was never a serious voice or authority on Eastern religion, let alone Buddhism. In Buddhism there is no IT to be a part of, no existing homogenious "oneness"-substance. Buddhism rejects "all is one" as delusion.

Rather, in Buddhism the dharmata of each mind is heterogeneous, like the heat and light of an individual fire.

A lot of this confusion actually comes down to the words advaya and advaita and unfounded Western fascination with the latter to the extent of projecting it onto Buddhism.

Buddhist texts virtually never use the noun advaita (non-duality), Vedantic texts do. Buddhism does however use the adjective advaya (non-dual), and means something very, very different than advaita.

>>9617978
This isn't true.

see >>9617285

>salistambha sutra: "there is nothing whatsoever that transmigrates from this world to another world."

The salistambha sutra is a definitive mahayana sutra.

You mustn't mistake upaya for the definitive position of common Mahayana.

>>9618009
No, there isn't.

OP raised the issue as a point counterpoint.

>>9618139
>At most, they believe in fusing with the brahmajyoti

What sect of Indian or Indo-Tibetan Buddhism asserts this? This is a deviation in every Buddhist system I know of.

>>9615546
This is a caricature of Buddhism.

>>9618170
Sorry i got some things mixed up.I was reading on māyāvādī, and it said buddhists didn't believe in the individual soul or the sac-cid ānanda vigraha form.

So, where do they go after breaking out the samsara cycle?

File: Z168.png (507KB, 1147x1338px) Image search: [Google]

507KB, 1147x1338px

>they havent realized buddhism is the medicine and vedanta the actual food

keep feeding on ur medicine and remaining attached to your unattachment. we cant change how the human mind works, only get to know how it does it and then live by it

>>9618273
Conventionally, Sravakas abide in a samadhi of extinction until they are roused from their slumber to take pure birth in a buddhafield located in the highest form realms and begin (bracketing Tsongkhapian deviations) the bodhisattvayana.

This is still coarse upaya though, buddhas, and so-called sentient beings, are non-arising from beginningless time.

J. Robert Oppenheimer lucidly pointed out:
"If we ask, for instance, whether the position of the electron remains the same, we must say 'no;' if we ask whether the electron's position changes with time, we must say 'no;' if we ask whether the electron is at rest, we must say 'no;' if we ask whether it is in motion, we must say 'no.'

The Buddha has given such answers when interrogated as to the conditions of man's self after his death; but they are not familiar answers for the tradition of seventeenth and eighteenth-century science."

>>9618296
>actually buying into anti-Buddhist Brahmanical propaganda
>believes Vishnu reincarnated as Gautama the monk to tame the 'evil atheists'

Pushyamitra would be proud.

Hindu tantra streams are legitimately dead and broken. The only truly living streams of tantra remaining reside in Buddhadharma.

>>9618381
>Blood Elves will rule Azeroth one day, you'll see!

>>9618390
>actually pretending Azeroth isn't just a washed up wasteland, a shadow of its former self.

Nobody needs that shit, I also don't know a thing about "Azeroth".

>>9618149
>(non-dual), and means something very, very different than advaita.
such as?

>>9618712
Advaya literally means "not two", it is an adjective and never referring to a thing in itself. Advaita is grammatically and semantically very different. It refers to a 'non-duality', and in nearly all usages is an abstract noun referring to a kind of thing, and further that very thing in itself.

In short, advaita means non-duality in the manner of being one single thing, it refers to a kind of monism. While with advaya there is no such implication, here "not two" or non-dual doesn't necessarily mean "one". Rather, Buddhism asserts ontological undecidability, some texts express this by talking about being beyond both dual and non-dual.

Therefore in context we see this play out for example where advaita vedanta believes in a real, truly existing state of 'non-duality', and constantly use the word advaita to indicate this.

Buddhism proper completely rejects this monism and non-duality, it recognizes that there is no state or condition that is ever truly devoid of all duality as such.

So what does advaya mean to Buddhism in context? Beyond "one", beyond "two", just the mere fact that all phenomena arise in dependence and are free from all ontological extremes.

Perhaps surprising to many Westerners, to Buddhism this is just a view and in itself has surprisingly small soteriological use: merely that by understanding that lack of awakening stems from not apprehending the non-dual nature of things, we can strive to overcome it. While emptiness and non-arising on the other hand aren't views but serve as cures for views.

Merely knowing about the view doesn't do much for one's practice and this hype about non-duality in the Western contemplative community is really an overused and overrated fad that early Western scholars largely perpetuated.

In fact, experiences of oneness and "all is one" are not considered very remarkable in Buddhism, since Buddhism isn't that interested experiences per se, but is concerned with specific non-conceptual direct perceptions and ascertaining the limits of conceptual proliferation.

The difference is significant:

In the incorrect view one pursues a false, conceptually tainted nature that is an ontological, transpersonal, homogeneous, unconditioned existent. It reduces all to a non-differentiated, single substance that is self-existing. This often manifests in practice by treating the clarity of mind as an abiding substratum that serves as an independent foundation for a witness or "higher self".

While the pursuit of Buddhadharma is epistemic, and regarding a personal, heterogeneous dharmata free from the extremes of existence and non-existence etc. It is insubstantial and a non-reductive recognition that there is nothing established in which or of which to be a part.

Since so called 'conditioned' phenomena and their non-arising natures are ultimately same nor different, these phenomena have never truly come into existence in the first place, and thus have been pure and empty from the very beginning.

>>9613414
>It is very likely that we've misunderstood their idea of self, or lack of it.

Pretty much.

Jay Garfield, one of the leading Buddhologists states clearly:

"Buddhists are eliminativist about the self, but not about the person. That is an important distinction."

The reason why this basic element of Buddhism is lost on so many Westerners is kind of complex, but it has to do with poor scholarship starting decades ago, sloppy translations, teachers with poor English, and a Western fascination with conflating Buddhism with Neo-Advaita and other "non-dualisms".

>>9618381
>propaganda
>implying any doctrine isnt propaganda

yes, even emptiness is propaganda by the sole fact that it is a discourse.

File: tumblr_m7y6ipb3321qee12to1_1280.png (431KB, 1024x768px) Image search: [Google]

431KB, 1024x768px

So what do the Buddha-anons in this thread think of the eternal recurrence?

>>9618173
Conventional Buddhism is a caricature of Buddhism. It has been watered down for the masses and incorporated by mainstream society as religions always are. But the roots of most religions are very extreme.

>>9620168
Buddhists want to escape from eternal recurrance, they are Anti-Nietzsceans in this sense.

Of course Nietzsche was merely memeing about his vitalism in his books and was actually miserable and suicidal.

He always remained a Schopenhauerian at heart even if all of his later work was a adolescent tier reactionary pro-life stance while all the sages of old have always said that life is either not worth living or not worth clinging to. His whole idea was to oppose Schopenhauer, Christ, the Buddha, Socrates et cetera.

>>9620235
there's a lot in that paragraph that's accurate but the guy is pushing it towards the "wisdom of Silenus"

Buddhism is anti-death just as much as it is anti-birth. It is warped to call it "anti-natalist" given the connotations that this has in western thought.

Being born in a human incarnation, though it is bound up in suffering, is a precious opportunity to practice Dharma and achieve awakening.

We are just the universe doing its thing, and when you look at how rare life is compared to duller states of matter, never mind living beings capable of speech, thought and meditation practice, you see that every human birth is an extremely unlikely opportunity for liberation. Concatenations of phenomena that result in the opportunities we have are RARE, so use the time wisely.

>>9618960
who the hell are you and what are you doing on 4chan

>>9620168
since when did the same thing ever happen twice?

>>9620279
I agree there is a certain provocative charge and edginess to that post but that's what makes it compelling.

If awakening leads to stopping rebirth Buddhism is exactly antinatalism though, just with a different cosmology. It's antinatalism on hard mode.

I like the positive idea of seeing your humanity as an opportunity, but from a Buddhist perspective this is because in your human life you have the greatest chance to work towards the true, final death.

>>9620299
>I like the positive idea of seeing your humanity as an opportunity, but from a Buddhist perspective this is because in your human life you have the greatest chance to work towards the true, final death.

how do you know that's what Nibbana is though? its notoriously slippery as a concept. The Buddha refused to clarify whether an arhat/tathagata a) exists after death, b) does not exist after death, c) both exists and does not exist after death, or d) neither exists nor does not exist after death

point being that whatever it is that happens at the full fruition of the path, is totally incommunicable in terms of our concepts of birth and death. it is often said in the suttas that with awakening we transcend birth and death, or that upon Nibbana we are never reborn in this world, but if you never are reborn in this world, does that mean there is not some place or other that some morsel of your being abides? The answer, if full awakening is a true, final death, is clearly "no", but the Buddha refused to give that question a straight answer (and most credible claimants of enlightenment since then as well), so be careful.

I'll say this - there definitely is an aspect of meditation practice that is experienced as a process of 'psychological suicide'. Your attachments to the skandas are like living beings, there is a strange feeling of grief that can arise as you watch them disintegrate. We are conditioned to the delusion that "I am" my favourite memories, my favourite music, my relationships with my friends, my opinions about this or that, and when you being to see that that you are not any of those things, it feels as though a part of you is dying. But is anything really dying? It could just be a painful attitudinal shift. We have to be careful about how much stock we put in the words we come up with to describe such things.

The problem with thinking you have an answer locked in a phrase like "true, final death" is that you come up with some kind of view of what the thing is, but you don't know what it is until you've done it. This is why there is a kind of inherent prejudice against discursive philosophical reasoning in Buddhism - we aren't going to find any answers by sitting back and thinking things through, as though we will arrive at some magic packet of words that can unlock the mystery. We have to do the contemplative practices which take us beyond thought. 10 days of solid practice on retreat with a good teacher will advance our understanding more than 10 years of philosophical reasoning and speculation about what Buddhism is about, what awakening is like and what its significance is.

>>9620369
Excellent critisism of my post desu.

Have you taken retreats? If so, which sect/school and what was it like?

>>9620279
>since when did the same thing ever happen twice?
This.

The Eternal Return, if we're supposed to take it seriously as metaphysics and as logos, and not as mythos, is essentialism masquerading as process philosophy, where in order to remain the same things move in circles.

>>9620299
>from a Buddhist perspective this is because in your human life you have the greatest chance to work towards the true, final death
Buddhism as a cult of annihilation sounds like an atheistic, secular, naturalist reading.

As a human your best choice is not to be a Buddhist, it is to become a Buddhist monk, the monks themselves know perfectly well that not all monks are gonna make it in this life.

If you can't be a monk you could return as one in the next life. As long as you're stuck in the mess that is samsara, your past and future matter, as kamma.

To reject rebirth is to reject kamma is to reject the foundation of Buddhism's ethics and practical aspects.

>>9620494
>The Eternal Return, if we're supposed to take it seriously as metaphysics and as logos, and not as mythos, is essentialism masquerading as process philosophy, where in order to remain the same things move in circles.

Can you elaborate on this a little bit more?

>>9620499
>"Whoever thou mayest be, beloved stranger, whom I meet here for the first time, avail thyself of this happy hour and of the stillness around us, and above us, and let me tell thee something of the thought which has suddenly risen before me like a star which would fain shed down its rays upon thee and every one, as befits the nature of light. - Fellow man! Your whole life, like a sandglass, will always be reversed and will ever run out again, - a long minute of time will elapse until all those conditions out of which you were evolved return in the wheel of the cosmic process. And then you will find every pain and every pleasure, every friend and every enemy, every hope and every error, every blade of grass and every ray of sunshine once more, and the whole fabric of things which make up your life. This ring in which you are but a grain will glitter afresh forever. And in every one of these cycles of human life there will be one hour where, for the first time one man, and then many, will perceive the mighty thought of the eternal recurrence of all things:- and for mankind this is always the hour of Noon".
There is no 'eternal', no 'always', no 'once more', and no 'forever' about anyone's life for the Buddhist.

Nietzsche is being neo-Parmenidean as fuck here, with fantasies of Being being indestructible, change being illusion, and the impossibility of non-existence.

The Eternal Return is a distant from Buddhism as it gets.

Go with Heraclitus instead, and stop fooling yourself about things not changing. You WILL change.

>>9620547
Holy shit, based post. Thanks anon, going to read some Heraclitus I guess.

Cool thread gents, cheers.

>>9620562
Just be advised that Heraclitus isn't a Buddhist and he still believes in monism, the unity of all things into one substance.

Other than that he's your go to source to understand process philosophy for a Westerner.

People opining about eastern philosophies that haven't meditated even once in their lives or taken a class in yoga or qigong should be banned. You won't ever have a good grasp of eastern metaphysical notions without practicing some "internal work" or another. Easterners eschew logos, rationality, etc. and prioritize praxis, though, of course, ultimately, you do have to theorize and write down your theory. But theory without praxis is a ticket to misunderstanding what easterners are trying to convey; this concerns especially us, spiritually crippled westerners.

>>9620750
This is Marxism.

>>9620299
>enlightenment is death
This is never correct. I don't know how this idea started.

>>9620712
What is Buddha Nature and Mind then, if not one substance?

>>9620750
I can hardly think of a bigger meme in Eastern religions than meditation.
https://vividness.live/2011/06/24/protestant-buddhism/
https://vividness.live/2011/07/05/the-king-of-siam-invents-western-buddhism/
https://vividness.live/2011/07/07/theravada-reinvents-meditation/

>>9620792
I haven't heard of a bigger meme in western religion than prayer
Next baitpost, please.

>>9620784
They are 2nd-3rd Century CE East Asian Mahayana innovations, particularly from the Tathagatagarbha Sutra. Buddhism is much older.

>>9620803
Meditation in Buddhism is only for the monks and isn't even that particularly frequent compared to their daily lives. Stick to practices of religions you would know something about, you huge-nosed Westerner.

>>9620792
Meditation is one of the few religious activity with loads of evidence behind it being more than a meme. It's useful for everyone regardless of belief system and shows demonstrable benefits in controlled studies.

>>9620824
>Buddhism is much older.
The little vessel is.
>Meditation in Buddhism is only for the monks
Are you saying the laity shouldn't practice? In Theravada, most men become ordained at least some in their life. In Mahayana, the laity is encouraged to practice on their own, and should as an important facet of their religion.
>Stick to practices of religions you would know something about, you huge-nosed Westerner.
Very ironic statement, because it seems like you don't have a grasp of it.

>>9620824
And also Hinayana is even more monist with conception of atman/essential self. I could see how you could interpret a Taoist-influenced Mahayana form as non-monist, but not "older Buddhism". The Tathagatagarbha Sutra even describes the Buddha as unchanging and eternal truth.

>>9620846
>Meditation is one of the few religious activity with loads of evidence behind it being more than a meme.
Again with the Western religion of the body.

Vipassana, whether it's the one told in the suttas or the extremely recent invention we have today, was never meant for the health benefits it can give to the body.

>>9620849
>little vessel
Without Mahayana millions of people wouldn't be Buddhists.

Without Theravada no one would. There is nothing "little" about Theravada.

>Are you saying the laity shouldn't practice?
Monks can attain nibbana, not the laity. If you want to do something practical, either join a monastery or give more alms. Put the Heart Sutra and mindfulness manuals down and give some of your food to a monk.

>>9620861
>Hinayana is even more monist with conception of atman/essential self
Anatta.

Anicca itself refutes on its own, it as if you were to have an essential self it would stop being the essential self the next moment.

>Without Theravada no one would. There is nothing "little" about Theravada.
And they come out of the woodwork. Hinayana was always the smaller truth, intended for those who could not grasp the true Dharma.
>Monks can attain nibbana, not the laity.
All can develop bodhicitta in addition to accruing positive karma through more materialistic means. Not do strive to do so is to waste one's precious human life.
>Put the Heart Sutra and mindfulness manuals down
You uncle tom. You spurn the true teachings, which just to hear give uncalculable merit to sentient beings, to give some fleeting merit to a monk. Knowing the dharma, the true dharma, and teaching others the path is a much more karmically useful use of one's time. Have you not read the Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra? You are telling others to fumble through a long path full of distraction, rather than to grow the fruit of the Bodhisattva in this lifetime.
>Anatta.
I was thinking of Hinduism, of which the Hinayana is an extension of anyway.
Yet Atman exists on the immediate reality of Theravada, which is built on the higher Dharma truth. If you read the Bodhicaryāvatāra you would understand that simply because all is impermanent and without unconditioned existence, that doesn't negate the monist elements of Buddhist doctrine, but instead strengthens them.

>>9620943
>Vipassana, whether it's the one told in the suttas or the extremely recent invention we have today, was never meant for the health benefits it can give to the body.
That doesn't mean it doesn't have them though.

File: 64-SBK.png (97KB, 320x220px) Image search: [Google]

97KB, 320x220px

why would buddhists need to reconcile with hindu theology?

>>9621057
>You spurn the true teachings
The true teachings are that monks renounce the world and thus aren't allowed to work. Or riding Harley Davidsons on the highway, chainsmoking, owning slaves, etc.

>bodhicitta
The Buddha is gone. Mahayana continues to attribute to him an attachment that was never there.

>Have you not read the Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra?
I've already read one apocrypha too many.

>I was thinking of Hinduism, of which the Hinayana is an extension of anyway.
Buddhism rejects everything that is fundamental about Hinduism: the authority of the Vedas, the brahman, the atman.

Rather it is within Mahayana and Vajrayana that other religious systems such as Daoism and the Hindu school Mimamsa, found a way in.

It's only gone downhill since the Mahasanghikas, the greatest marketing operation in human history.

File: 1491094999461.jpg (209KB, 720x960px) Image search: [Google]

209KB, 720x960px

>Mfw trying to absorb all this knowledge in this thread

>>9621441

theres isnt that much. /lit/ is generally poorly read on esotericism. Youd do better to ask kc or 420 since they have alot of weird fringe occultists

>>9621151
>Mahayana continues to attribute to him an attachment that was never there.

Nonsense.

>>9618964
if it was reddit i'd upvote you for this

>>9620792
>unironically citing David Chapman's blog, notorious pseud who writes about "muh vampires and buddhahood"

Dude is a joke, his assertions about so called protestant buddhism have been ripped to shreds, the guy doesn't know a fucking thing about tantra, and literally practices in neo-dzogchen tradition that a couple of white cosplayers (literally people way too into professional stage costumes) made up and went as far as to fabricate a poorly written 'tantra' in garbled Tibetan as proof of the validity of their """""tradition""""".

He regularly bans people from his blog when it is clear they know more than him.

>>9620279
>who the hell are you and what are you doing on 4chan

Someone that for some reason ends up on lit ~1-2 times a year posting in dharma threads.

The anon that has done several longterm retreats. Tibetan Buddhism, specifically Ati Dzogpa Chenpo through Nyingma and Drikung.

>>9621057
Not the other dude, but just wanted to point out that hinayana isn't equivalent to theravada. Hinayana only refers to the scope of one's own practice, in this case is considered a "lesser vehicle" because its main concern is individual liberation. Hinayana is contained in the mahayana teachings.

As Rongzompa said: "All of the teachings of Buddha are of one taste, one way - all leading to the truth, all arriving at the truth. Although there are different vehicles, they neither contradict each other, nor reject the basis of each other. The things that are fully made clear in the lower vehicles are neither changed nor rejected by the higher vehicles, but accepted as they are. The points that are not made completely clear in the lower vehicles are made clear in the higher vehicles, but the basic structure is not changed, and none of the points that are already clear are contradicted. Therefore, different vehicles and traditions do not go in different directions, and they do not arrive at different conclusions."

Also, regarding most of the discussion in this thread, which seems rather pointless to me, I remembered this quote by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche:

"All the philosophical theories that exist have been created by the mistaken dualistic minds of human beings. In the realm of philosophy, that which today is considered true, may tomorrow be proved to be false. No one can guarantee a philosophy's validity. Because of this, any intellectual way of seeing whatever is always partial and relative. The fact is that there is no truth to seek or to confirm logically; rather what one needs to do is to discover just how much the mind continually limits itself in a condition of dualism.

Dualism is the real root of our suffering and of all our conflicts. All our concepts and beliefs, no matter how profound they may seem, are like nets which trap us in dualism. When we discover our limits we have to try to overcome them, untying ourselves from whatever type of religious, political or social conviction may condition us. We have to abandon such concepts as 'enlightenment', 'the nature of the mind', and so on, until we are no longer satisfied by a merely intellectual knowledge, and until we no longer neglect to integrate our knowledge with our actual existence."

Sorry about all the quotes, but I'm not as nearly as eloquent as such masters. Have a good day guys.

>>9621151
Got my chuckle at the theravada = sthavira meme

You really are too much, there is a difference between conditional and ultimate bodhicittas. The latter applies to a buddha and tantric practitioners and has nothing to do with attachment at all.

A buddha doesn't even perceive sentient beings, let alone sentient beings needing help. The whole non-abiding buddha thing is upaya in common Mahayana to talk about equipoise and post-equipoise. Uncommon Mahayana clarifies in no uncertain terms that post-equipoise has nothing to do with Buddhahood.

>The Buddha is gone.

Which is why Mahayana thinks it unwise to be attached to the teachings of any one Buddha.

>It's only gone downhill since the Mahasanghikas

The Mahasanghikas tried to prevent the Sthavira from modifying the Vinaya. Furthermore the Mahasanghikas came along a long time before the Theravadans, despite Theravadans trying to write themselves earlier into history.

This was caught by Bareau starting in the 50s and only has been reinforced by evidence since, yet lay people who romanticize about early Buddhism won't let the meme die.

Just face it, Theras were one of the last of the early schools on the scene, so late that they came after Mahayana had formed and already started talking about Hinayana. Something pro-thera scholars point to in defense of Theravada, that they were so late that Hinayana didn't apply to them.

Hell, G. Samuel and G. Schopen are probably right and Buddhaghosa and his colleagues likely fathered a fair bit of the Pali Canon.

>>9620244
>>Buddhists want to escape from eternal recurrance, they are Anti-Nietzsceans in this sense.
the thing is that once you accept the ER, you get out of it

>>9622455
This is misleading though because Theravada doesn't have anything like Mahayana bodhicitta nor the paramitas in its corpus.

The closest things we get are the latest dating additions to the canon, which are obviously heavily influenced by Mahayana yet lacks mentioning of a way to actually pursue and actualize the Mahayana ideal beyond an initial vow.

Rather these concern a positive altruistic motivation and it mentions how stream-entry etc., blocks entry into putting the motivation into practice, something rejected by common Mahayana.

>Rongzompa
>Ch.NN

Yet Rongzompa and Ch.NN both consider Dzogchen explicitly the fastest way to Buddhahood, and thus by extension rejecting Theravada doctrines on the matter.

While they both assert that secondary practices from any vehicle, including non-buddhadharma practices, are totally acceptable, the main point was exclusively the specific approach to Completion Stage Vajrayana (aka Dzogchen).

The point for them is if you practice merely Theravada with a Mahayana motivation, that is good and all but at best it will take the standard lengths of three incalculable eons found in common Mahayana.

>>9620164
>not understanding emptiness of emptiness

Nirodha when?

>>9620235
>But the roots of most religions are very extreme.

Eh, the roots of Buddhism are extremely tame compared to early Vajrayana Buddhism almost a thousand years later.

>>9620369
>The Buddha refused to clarify whether an arhat/tathagata a) exists after death, b) does not exist after death, c) both exists and does not exist after death, or d) neither exists nor does not exist after death
that means the word existence is not relevant to describe the life of an arhat/tathagata.

File: 1493154027287.jpg (58KB, 1578x430px) Image search: [Google]

58KB, 1578x430px

reminder that jenna is on the path to enlightenment

>>9622501
I didn't quote Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche because of his involvement in dzogchen doctrines. I posted that because I think all of this discussion is a waste of time. Of course I know not everybody in this thread is a buddhist, but even then, all this exchange of words is just mental wankery. How many of the people here will be able to attain buddhahood in this lifetime? Of many of the practioners on earth right now will be able to achieve that? Not many I think, and unless you're close or seriously commited to achieving that goal, discussing all this is just a glorified game of scrabble.

As long as you're unable incorporate in your own experience all the concepts that have been name-dropped in this thread, talking about them is utterly pointless. In the end it's not a discussion about buddhism but about who knows more foreign words and where to put them to sound smart. Most of the teachings contained in the hinayana are fundamental in the other vehicles, hell, even in other religions if stripped down from cultural trappings. Not being an asshole and not getting upset because of petty stuff is pretty much the universal recipe to enjoy life and help others as well, if you fail to see that, everthing that comes after it's just a waste of time and mental capacity.

>>9622455
>Dualism
people who use this word never say what is dual to what. what is dualism and why do people use the word dualism to qualify what they put behind this word?

>>9622620
I don't know what "people" are you talking about, but in buddhism most of the time they say they're talking about self and other, subject and object, etc. It's pretty clear in most of the teachings.

>>9622470
>theravada = sthavira meme
Never made such a claim even though thera is the Pali translation of the Sanskrit sthavira.

By introducing the very notion of schism anybody can do whatever they want and call it a sangha.

No wonder the only thing the traditions agree on, after the notion that suffering can end, is that the worst hell is reserved for those responsible for the early schisms.

>there is a difference between conditional and ultimate bodhicittas
More important is the difference between samsara and nibbana.

>A buddha doesn't even perceive sentient beings
Of course, he's not out here helping people to achieve bodhi, after all.

Go recite Om gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi swaha some more, maybe you'll understand that he's gone.

>prevent the Sthavira from modifying the Vinaya
It was a conservative group. All the sthavira wanted to reform was the reform.

To do away with Mahasamghika teachings like the fallibility of the arhats, the life of the Buddha being unlimited, identifying the body of the Buddha with the Dharma, and turning Buddhism into theistic movement because the Hindus were turning their religion into Bhakti emotional devotionalism, and they felt it was too fashionable not to pursue it too.

>>9617290
Oh shut the FUCK up with your poplit bullshit.

>>9613406
Because it's an ancient philosophy riddled with contradictions and short-sightedness. Like the bible, stop trying to use it as a complete ontology.

All the "muh they didn't actually mean self they meant SELF not self there is no self but there is cause and effect that we call self" in this thread is so fucking annoying. It's not comprehensive. Get over it.

>>9622614
>How many of the people here will be able to attain buddhahood in this lifetime?

None if they become mislead that Theravada with Mahayana aspiration is a viable option. Or that common Mahayana is sufficient.

>Most of the teachings contained in the hinayana are fundamental in the other vehicles

I don't agree at all.

>>9622648
Dual actually refers to the extremes of existence and non-existence.

When Buddhists talk about subject-object, it is actually an extension of the above. Why? Because non-dual there isn't the negation of the subject and object.

>>9622839
Last time I checked they talked about four extremes. But we're kinda on the same page though ;)

>>9622760
>By introducing the very notion of schism anybody can do whatever they want and call it a sangha.

The first schism was the result of sthavira trying to modify the vinaya. Mahasamghika theories were not schism inducing, they were still one sangha.

>No wonder the only thing the traditions agree on... is that the worst hell is reserved for those responsible for the early schisms.

That actually isn't true at all

>More important is the difference between samsara and nibbana.

More important is disillusionment with samsara since there is otherwise no essential difference between the samsara/nirvana.

Redirecting to a different point doesn't change the fact, you got your idea of bodhicitta completely wrong.

>Of course, he's not out here helping people to achieve bodhi, after all

Not mutually exclusive. Even in the Pali he is depicted as acknowledging my point. He doesn't perceive sentient beings.

>maybe you'll understand that he's gone.

The irony is still lost on you. The only groups clinging to the Buddha through his teachings are Hinayanists.

>All the sthavira wanted to reform was the reform.

You just pulled this out of your ass. There is no evidence of a 'reform' prior, it was one sangha filled with people with, different points of view. The actual split was initiated by sthavira. There was no "group" of Mahasamghikas until this.

>To do away with Mahasamghika teachings like the fallibility of the arhats, the life of the Buddha being unlimited
>right back to slipping in the meme

There is no evidence that Sthavira explicitly rejected these positions.

>identifying the body of the Buddha with the Dharma

During or before the split, there is no evidence that even the so called Mahasamghikas held this. It is likely a later innovation after the Sthavira-led schism, and likely from a group that held an identity distinct from Mahasamghikas.

>and turning Buddhism into theistic movement
>thinks devotionalism =/= theistic movement

Even the Pali Canon contains this, which I can accept as influenced by non-Buddhists, but the mahaparinibbanasutta pretty clearly depicts the Buddha as praising devotionalism as merit-accruing, going as far as to include making offerings to devas in this.

>>9622766
Oh shut the FUCK up with your popBuddhist bullshit.

Hesse's book had little to do with Buddhist teachings, have you even read it?

>>9622772
>muh equivocations in English
>therefore it must much be contradictory

Are you even trying?

>>9622845
Actually throughout Nagarjuna's MMK he uses dilemma more often than tetralemma. In most contexts it would be redundant and unnecessary to use the latter.

>>9616313
>mfw no one has said anything
>>9616802

>>9616288
Don't adopt that as a principle a priori, because it will lead you to ridiculous conclusions.

are there any /lit/ guides on Buddhist literature?

>>9623375

Give

The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying

a try.

Buddhism is about practice and meditation.Rmemeber that.

>>9623390
thanks

>>9622507
>buying into sunyata when cittamatra is the only way to get rid of the question

>>9622516
whats extreme about the diamond boys?

>>9623732
Yoga

BUDDHA on suicide watch
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2003/02/buddhist_retreat.html

https://newhumanist.org.uk/articles/4021/the-dark-side-of-buddhism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDI6VYAMzIA

>>9624095
>stretching is extreme

>>9624101
>It seems legitimate to ask whether a path that turns away from aspects of life as essential as sexuality and parenthood is truly spiritual.
As expected of Slate.

>>9624105
>stretching

So Schopenhauer basically took Hinduism but made Brahman (the Will) evil?

>>9624178

I think he came to the conclusion that it is that which stands between Brahman/Pleroma/the Holy Spirit and Atman/Man/Jesus that is Evil.

>>9623538
>thinks cittamatra rejects sunyata

Which cittamatra specifically are you even talking about? Do you even know the categories?

Cittamatra takes on way too much conventional baggage that it cannot defend, one of the reasons why it entirely fell apart and no one practices it itself anymore.

Now there is much utility in a Madhyamaka-Yogacara synthesis, and serves as the conventional background to approach most classes of tantra, but aside from that it is a dead end.

>>9623732
To start sgrol ba rites, which somehow managed to survive past the early periods of tantra in the highest classes.

Also, the Dalai Lama surprisingly admitted at the Mind and Life conference that Tibet had preserved the self-strangulation technique meant to induce an hour of actual death once the yogi had mastered no-breath samadhis. The idea being to forcefully sever the mind and body and bring about the bardo visions.

There was an experimental anatomist there that suggested higher levels of hydrogen sulphide in the blood stream from the practice may protect their organs from much of the damage of such a thing.

Other than that and specifically early tantra.

Drinking your sisters menstrual blood, mixed with your own semen, out of a Brahmin child's skull.

Or practicing sbyor with a corpse.

Just consider the attitude of the Saṃpuṭa Tantra:

"Having drunk dog, donkey, camel,
and elephant blood, one should
regularly feed on their flesh. Human
flesh smeared with the blood of all
species of animals is beloved.
Entirely vile meat full of millions of
worms is divine. Meat rendered
putrid by shit, seething with
hundreds of maggots, mixed with
dog and human vomit, with a coating
of piss—mixed with shit it should be
eaten by the yogin with gusto."

While it is true that in order to become acceptable to monastics while being imported into Tibet, especially after the second dharma transmission into Tibet, there was a clamping down on the more extreme aspects of tantra as they were brought into the monasteries. A domestication if you when it was brought into the sterile celibate all-male environment, with the wild elements, if they survived here, were kept extremely secret and rarely revealed.

While Nyingmas in particular, lacking a monastic institution, retained quite a fair bit of the wildness of tantra, practiced in the fertile charnel grounds.

>>9624101
>these people don't know much about Buddhism, but they want you to take their opinions on it seriously!

It is kind of sad you spent 5 minutes on google looking for the first things you could find so you could shitpost on an anime board. Maybe you need a little buddhadharma in your life anon.

>>9624949
That sounds like Aghori tier practice.

>>9624105
>thinks yoga means stretching

Yuppie sgrol ba when?

>>9624989
Very early aghori yes, because Hindu and Buddhist tantra formed side by side. The early yogis shared openly with each other and were far less concerned with the doctrinal differences between their respective exoteric compatriots.

They were far too interested in what they understood as legitimate practical innovation towards their respective soteriological ends.


Modern aghoris far less so, they aren't taken too seriously and typically aren't THAT extreme.

>>9625016
Don't they still eat bloated river dog corpses and eat dead people and fuck whores on top of them?

>>9625043
Not really, they like having such spooky reputations, but in modern times most of it is imagined.

Sometimes they try to put on shows to perpetuate these spooky ideas, mostly for tourists, but it typically just a show and rarely extreme.

Mostly they just bum around. No one fears them anymore, and most natives don't take them very seriously. They are viewed like a semi-religious carnival sideshow at best.

>>9614021
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3bBreSgaik

>>9620861
>The Tathagatagarbha Sutra even describes the Buddha as unchanging and eternal truth.

Eh... The tathagatabarbha sutras talk about something very precise, even if you a reading a solid translation, without studying the Indian tenet systems it is easy to be very misled.

However if you are reading a garbage-tier translation like from Tony Page, you will be way out in left field.

Furthermore, it is important to read the sutras on their own terms rather than through later lenses. For example, the Indians didn't have a three-turnings emphasis at all like the Tibetans did. The Tibetans actually imported this from Korean commentaries.

So this whole provisional/definitive category of sutras doesn't apply to how the Indians thought of these texts, which is extremely important when trying to understand the early tathtagatagarbha literature and how they relate to the kosha and madhyamaka literature.

>>9613406
Can anyone reccomend some good general histories of indian philosophy? This seems quite dense.

File: 0.1.png (47KB, 650x1100px) Image search: [Google]

47KB, 650x1100px

>>9625590
or the a very short introduction

File: b76672db6ae95333ff405672bfb2e1bb306a4d9fc9803dd2b507bbb538772c50_1.jpg (131KB, 635x655px) Image search: [Google]

131KB, 635x655px

>>9615194
>This way leads to Niana, which is perfect enlightenment in this world.

>>9625635
Warder isn't without problem, but honestly a fair choice for an introduction.

File: 0cY5R6s.jpg (63KB, 640x640px) Image search: [Google]

63KB, 640x640px

>>9615194
>"nibbana", "dhamma"
>mfw the Buddha didn't even speak Pali

>>9623375
It depends on what sect you are interested in.

>>9615194
>Nibbana is unconditioned
Nagarjuna would like to see you after class

>>9626143
Yeah, people just starting to look into Buddhism usually aren't prepared for just how vast the literature is.

Buddhism has a pretty rich intellectual history.

>>9625635
Thanks

>>9626143
I honestly dont know, thats why I was hoping for something like Start with the greeks.

File: 1469598137996.jpg (1MB, 2000x2820px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 2000x2820px

>>9627918

>>9627918
Milindapanhasutta is the Start with the Greeks of Buddhism.

>>9628049
>>9628096
thanks guys

File: Adi Shankaracharya.mp4_snapshot_01.45.55_[2017.06.02_19.44.36].jpg (41KB, 540x360px) Image search: [Google]

41KB, 540x360px

>mfw all this babbling

stop the quarreling about the pettiness of human life and go look at a tree or something. you can learn more from a bird building a nest than from volumes of your buddhas or brahmins.

File: 1293128071601.png (19KB, 270x272px) Image search: [Google]

19KB, 270x272px

>People ITT genuinely believe that reading Siddhartha gives insight into the teachings of the Buddha

>>9628049
The Buddhism list is absolute dog shit.

>>9628234
>you can learn more from a bird building a nest

Hahahaha.

>>9628981
recommend some then

Before I put together a list: If you are trying to understand Buddhism as it actually is, rather than merely some Western romanticism, it is a mistake to start with English translations of early sutras.

These texts arose at differing times, reacting to different forces, using the same precise terms in different ways, and none of that will come across in a plain reading of a translation without a fair bit of background understanding.

Hell, in some critical cases the preferred version of a sutta is in fact one of the later and most modified versions. The quintessential example being the Satipatthanasutta in the Pali Canon, the most heavily modified version is the basis for the modern neo-Theravadan Vipassanā movement.

Furthermore there are plenty of issues with translations generally that are especially concerning with Buddhist materials, distinct words being translated as the same English term, or word choices which in no uncertain terms are bound to mislead the reader. For example, Taṇhā and Chanda both being translated as "desire". Or rig pa being translated as "awareness".

Buddhism as a whole has had tremendous innovation and much of this influenced already extant traditions themselves and how they began to interpret and comment on earlier material.
For example, Theravadans eventually became radically influenced by the Sautrāntikas and later by Nagarjuna. This significantly impacted translations (and still does), commentaries, and the direction of development.

Another example is the Thai Forest Tradition being rather influenced by earlier tantric approaches to even basic meditations and a tantric view of the mind that were prominent in the country prior to the state-backed swing towards Theravada and a national identity of antiquity in the 19th century.

Reading early sutras though will give you no sense of any of this innovation, nor its back-influence, and you will be very disconnected to how Buddhists actually think about Buddhism in just about every way.

It is much better to start with a survey from the perspective of senior practitioners with a scholastic interest and through the perspective of the most developed traditions. Second to that it is best to start with philosophical reconstructions rather than merely having key ideas merely paraphrased.
It should be noted that the vast majority of Buddhists throughout history have been taught starting with some kind of commentarial literature one way or another, so this approach is not abnormal in the least.

If you start in this way, then if you actually move to read early sutras, you will have much more solid grounding in what perspective they are actually speaking from, how certain ideas and specific usages fared over time, what kind of things to look for and investigate if you are still using a translation, and so forth.

>>9630167
Since you seem to know what you're talking about, what actual books to you recommend for noobs?

>>9630167
see
>>9630495
this

plz enlighten us senpai

>>9630167
With the aforementioned in mind: though the final version is being worked on and so is yet to be published, this reproducible draft is a fantastic starting point for a variety of reasons:

http://www.webdelprofesor.ula.ve/humanidades/elicap/es/uploads/Biblioteca/bdz-e.version.pdf

A solid philosophical reconstruction of Nagarjuna, who was quite frankly far more influential in many ways than Gautama the monk was:

Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka: A Philosophical Introduction -Jan Westerhoff

From there, depending on your interests:
Selection of (academic)

Making Sense of Tantric Buddhism -Christian K. Wedemeyer *

The Origin of Buddhist Meditation -Alexander Wynne *

Indian Esoteric Buddhism- Ronald M. Davidson

Tibet: A History: Sam van Schaik *

Seeing Through Zen: Encounter, Transformation, and Genealogy in Chinese Chan Buddhism -John R. McRae *

Pruning the Bodhi Tree: The Storm Over Critical Buddhism
by Jamie Hubbard and Paul L. Swanson *

The Bodhidharma Anthology: The Earliest Records of Zen -Jeffrey L. Broughton

Bones, Stones, and Buddhist Monks -Gregory Schopen

The Buddhist Sects of the Lessor Vehicle -André Bareau

Indian Buddhism -Anthony Warder

The Shape of Ancient Thought -Thomas McEvilley

Tibetan Zen:Discovering a Lost Tradition- Sam van Schaik

How Zen Became Zen: The Dispute Over Enlightenment and the Formation of Chan Buddhism in Song-Dynasty China- Morten Schlutter

Enlightenment in Dispute: the reinvention of Chan Buddhism in seventeenth-century China- Jiang Wu

Tracing Back the Radiance: Chinul's Korean Way of Zen -Robert E. Buswell, Jr.

Yongming Yanshou's Conception of Chan in the Zongjing lu: A Special Transmission Within the Scriptures -Albert Welter

Sudden and Gradual: Approaches to Enlightenment in Chinese Thought- Peter N. Gregory

A History of Mindfulness- Bhikkhu Sujato

*-must read

>>9630535
selection of (biographies)
A Clear Mirror: The Visionary Autobiography of a Tibetan Master
Book -Traktung Dudjom Lingpa *

The Madman's Middle Way: Reflections on Reality of the Tibetan Monk Gendun Chopel -Donald S. Lopez Jr. *

Apparitions of the Self: The Secret Autobiographies of a Tibetan Visionary -Janet Gyatso *

Blazing Splendor The Memoirs of the Dzogchen Yogi Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche *

Togden Shakya Shri: The Life and Liberation of a Tibetan Yogin -Kathog Situ Chökyi Gyatso

The Lamp That Enlightens Narrow Minds: The Life and Times of a Realized Tibetan Master -Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

Rainbow Body: The Life and Realization of a Tibetan Yogin -Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

The Hidden Life of the Sixth Dalai Lama -Ngawang Lhundrup Dargyé *

The life of Shabkar -Matthieu Ricard *

The Autobiography of Jamgon Kongtrul: A Gem of Many Colors *

The Mahasiddha and His Idiot Servant -John Riley Perks

Buddha's Lions: The Lives of the Eighty-four Siddhas -James B. Robinson

No Abode: The Record of Ippen -Dennis Hirota

Footprints in the Snow: The Autobiography of a Chinese Buddhist Monk *

Empty Cloud: The Autobiography of the Chinese Zen Master Xu Yun

Wild Ivy: The Spiritual Autobiography of Zen Master Hakuin *

Journey to Mindfulness: The Autobiography of Bhante G.

Acariya Mun Bhuridatta Thera, A biography of Ajahn Mun -Ajahn Maha Boowa *

The Autobiography of Phra Ajaan Lee -Thanissaro Bhikkhu

One Night's Shelter: The Autobiography of Bhante Yogavacara Rahula

The Autobiography of a Forest Monk -Venerable Ajahn Thate

* -must reads

Going to take a short break and put together another list or two.

>>9630584
Forgot these two gems when reorganizing the biography list:

The Lotus-Born:The Life Story of Padmasambhava -Yeshe Tsogyal*

Lady of the Lotus-Born: The Life and Enlightenment of Yeshe Tsogyal -Gyalwa Changchub and Namkhai Nyingpo *
---------
A selection of primary and secondary material:

(Nagarjuna)
Fundamental Verses of the Middle Way ** -The three best published translations of this in English are Siderits', The Padmakara Translation Group's, and Garfield's. There are problems with all three, and considering the importance of this text it really is best to compare all three of them.

-Seventy Stanzas on Emptiness -D. R. Komito

-Letter to a Friend -Padmakara Translation Group or L. Jamspal's trans. *

Vigrahavyavartani (The End of Disputes) -J. Westerhoff *

In Praise of Dharmadhatu -Karl Brunnholzl *
-----
(other Indian Sutrayana, some Indo-Tibetan crossover)

Abhidharmakosa by Vasubandhu * (the best out there at the moment is from Gelong Lodro Sangpo, there is a four vol. set that includes a massive collection of commentaries)

Dharmakirti's 'Ascertainment of Valid Cognition' and his 'Commentary on Dignaga's Compendium of Valid Cognition' (pref. studied with John D. Dunne's Foundations of Dharmakirti's Philosophy)

Introduction to the Middle Way: Chandrakirti's Madhyamakavatara with Commentary by Ju Mipham -Padmakara Translation Group *

Lucid Exposition of the Middle Way: The Essential Chapters From The Prasannapada of Chandrakirti -Mervyn Sprung

Shantideva's Bodhicharyavatara, I prefer the Wallaces' translation

The Complete Works of Atisa, The Lamp for the Path & Commentary Hardcover -Richard Sherburne *

The Ornament of Clear Realization- Asanga *

Middle Beyond Extremes: Maitreya's Madhyantavibhanga with Commentaries by Khenpo Shenga and Ju Mipham

Abhidharmasamuccaya -Asanga

Pratyutpanna Samadhi Sutra *

Surangama Samadhi Sutra

Sandhinirmocana Sutra

Mahaparinirvana Sutra *

---
(East-Asian)

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice -Meido (should be published next year, watch out for it, the manuscript looks fantastic)

The Three Pillars of Zen - Roshi Philip Kapleau *

The Blue Cliff Record -Thomas Cleary *

Book of Serenity: One Hundred Zen Dialogues -Thomas Cleary

The Lankavatara Sutra: Translation and Commentary -Red Pine *

The Diamond Sutra: The Perfection of Wisdom -Red Pine

The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma *

The Zen Teachings Of Rinzai (the Lin-Chi-Lu) -Irmgard Schoegl

The Essence of Chan-Guo Gu

Grass Mountain: A Seven Day Intensive in Ch'an Training -Master Nan Huai-Chin *

Attaining the Way: A Guide to the Practice of Chan Buddhism -Master Sheng Yen

The Collected Works of Chinul|The Korean Approach to Zen- Chinul

Taming the Monkey Mind - A Guide to Pure Land Practice- Cheng Wei-an

Mahayana Sutra of the Illuminating Everywhere Radiance-Store Wordless Dharma Door

Longer Sukhavativyuha Sutra

* -must reads

>>9631038
Selection of (Indo-Tibetan)

(Chogyal Namkhai Norbu)
The Crystal and the Way of Light: Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen

Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Dzogchen and Zen

The Precious Vase: Instructions on the Base of Santi Maha Sangha

Guruyoga
---

(Dudjom Lingpa's Visions of the Great Perfection series -B. Alan Wallace):

Buddhahood without Meditation

Heart of the Great Perfection

The Vajra Essence

Stilling the Mind: Shamatha Teachings from Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence
---

(Chagchen aka Mahamudra)

Mahamudra: The Moonlight -- Quintessence of Mind and Meditation Paperback – Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, Lobsang P Lhalungpa

Pointing Out the Great Way: The Stages of Meditation in the Mahamudra Tradition - Daniel P. Brown

The Royal Seal of Mahamudra: Volume One: A Guidebook for the Realization of Coemergence -Khamtrul Rinpoche and Gerardo Abboud

Naked Awareness: Practical Instructions on the Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen - Karma Chagme, B. Alan Wallace

Clarifying the Natural State -Dalpo Tashi Namgyal

Carefree Dignity -Tsoknyi Drubwang Rinpoche
---

(Padmasambhava)

Treasures From Juniper Ridge -Erik Pema Kunsang & Marcia Binder Schmidt

Advice From the Lotus Born -Erik Pema Kunsang

Natural Liberation: Padmasambhava's Teachings on the Six Bardos -B. Alan Wallace
---

(Other Indo-Tibetan, Indian crossover)

Stages of Meditation - Dalai Lama

The Adornment of the Middle Way: Shantarakshita's Madhyamakalankara with Commentary by Jamgon Mipham

The Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism Its Fundamentals and History -Dudjom Rinpoche

Yeshe Lama -Jigmed Lingpa (ideally Tony Duff translation 'Highest Wisdom', but intentionally expensive)

Deity, Mantra, and Wisdom: Development Stage Meditation in Tibetan Buddhist Tantra -Dharmachakra Translation Committee

Freedom From Extremes: Gorampa's Distinguishing the Views and the Polemics of Emptiness -Jose Ignacio Cabezon & Geshe Lobsang Dargyay

The Two Truths Debate: Tsongkhapa and Gorampa on the Middle Way -Sonam Thakchoe

Tsongkhapa's Final Exposition of Wisdom -Jeffrey Hopkins

Mountain Doctrine: Tibet's Fundamental Treatise on Other-Emptiness and the Buddha Matrix -Jeffrey Hopkins

The Practice of Dzogchen: Longchen Rabjam's Writings on the Great Perfection - Tulku Thondup

Quintessential Dzogchen -Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

The Hundred Thousand Songs of Milarepa-Christopher Stagg

Not for Happiness: A Guide to the So-Called Preliminary Practices -Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse

Fundamental Mind: The Nyingma View of the Great Completeness -Jeffrey Hopkins

Luminous Essence: A Guide to the Guhyagarbha Tantra -Dalai Lama

The Seven-Point Mind Training
A Tibetan Method for Cultivating Mind and Heart -B. Alan Wallace

Mipham's Dialectics and the Debates on Emptiness: To Be, Not to Be or Neither -Karma Phuntsho

Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism -Chogyam Trungpa

Journey Without Goal: The Tantric Wisdom of the Buddha -Chogyam Trungpa

The Supreme Source: the Fundamental Tantra of the Dzogchen Semde

>>9631159
Shit. Counting from the top: 1, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 24, 26, 30 are all 'must reads' imo

Will pick it up with a little more in a short bit.

>>9631177
(cont. Indo-Tibetan)
Buddhahood in This Life: The Great Commentary by Vimalamitra -Malcolm Smith *

The Precious Treasury of the Way of Abiding -Richard Barron *

In the Forest of Faded Wisdom -Gendun Chopel

The Bliss of Inner Fire -Lama Thubten Yeshe

Establishing Appearances As Divine -Heidi I. Koppl *

If you are supernerd, read the Treasury of Knowledge by Jamgon Kongtrul (huge ongoing translation project)

(misc. E. Capriles)

The Beyond Mind Papers:Transpersonal and Metatranspersonal Theory: A critique of the systems of Wilber, Washburn and Grof and an outline of the Dzogchen path to definitive true sanity 4 Volumes (first two volumes are must reads)

Beyond Mind, Beyond Being, Beyond History: A Dzogchen Based Meta-Transpersonal Philosophy and Psychology. 3 Volumes

Loops from the Source of Danger is Fear: http://webdelprofesor.ula.ve/humanidades/elicap/en/uploads/Biblioteca/LoopsFromTSODIF2005.pdf

---
(Theravada)
Visuddhimagga -Buddhaghosa *

Suttanipata "The Sutta Collection" (the fifth book of the Khuddaka Nikaya), good portions of it very likely contain the oldest material in the Pali Canon-Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation through Wisdom Pub. is best the version by far:
"The Suttanipata: An Ancient Collection of the Buddha’s Discourses Together with Its Commentaries" **

The Path of Freedom: Vimuttimagga - Soma Thera, N.R.M. Ehara

A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma -Bhikkhu Bodhi

A Swift Pair of Messengers - Bhikkhu Sujato *

Arahattamagga Arahattaphala, the Path to Arahantship: A Compilation of Venerable Acariya Maha Boowa's Dhamma Talks

The Mind Illuminated: A Complete Meditation Guide Integrating Buddhist Wisdom and Brain Science - Culadasa (John Yates)

(Thanissaro Bhikkhu)
Udana

The Sublime Attitudes *

The Paradox of Becoming *

Handful of Leaves
----

(misc.)
The Broken Buddha: Critical Reflections on Theravada and a Plea for a New Buddhism by Ven. Shravasti Dhammika. (rare; not to be confused 'Broken Buddha' by Meg Barnhouse or 'The Broken Buddha: ...' by Erick Alayon)

The Nude Monk's Burning Robes: A Cross Section of the Modern Theravada Buddhism Based on Na-Uyana Araṇya, a Theravada Buddhist monastery

*-must reads

>>9631319
No Milindapanhasutta, Dhammapada, Heart Sutra and Lotus Sutra?

>>9630167
>Theravadans eventually became radically influenced by the Sautrāntikas and later by Nagarjuna. This significantly impacted translations (and still does), commentaries, and the direction of development.
Would you comment a bit more on the Nagarjuna-Theravada relationship?

Is it because of he takes Anatta to its logical extreme? Like the self isn't simply the derivative product of the constituents of a human, there absolutely is no such thing as a self whatsoever, as per Mulamadhyamakakarika?

>>9631421
>Milindapanhasutta

Contained in the (Thanissaro Bhikkhu) section

>Dhammapada

In my assessment, Westerners have overestimated the influence of this work and its overall relevance. Nonetheless, parts are likewise captured in other entries. I'd sooner include the Jataka.

>Heart Sutra
The essence of this is thoroughly captured in better entries. This is an example of a sutra that tends to mislead modern readers more than anything, and by the time it doesn't the text doesn't add anything.

>Lotus Sutra

Didn't see the point of repeating something that had already been recommended. That said, once you remove the cults of Nichiren, the Lotus seems surprisingly less relevant in other far East-Asian traditions, at least in practice, including even Tendai from what I can tell.
It certainly appears to play a smaller role in Mahayana as a whole than typically considered.

That said, caveat emptor, my specialty resides more in Indian and Indo-Tibetan systems than so called far East-Asian.

>>9631493
>Is it because of he takes Anatta to its logical extreme?

This is part of it, Theravada becomes more self-eliminativist because of Nagarjuna.

Theravada initially seemed to be fairly anti-realist until Sautrantika influence, adopting said influence into its canon. After which Theravada is explicitly advocating things like atomic realism.

When Nagarjuna/early Madhyamaka comes around Theravada imports some of their concerns. It begins retrofitting, through fairly convoluted logic, a kind of emptiness of phenomena as a necessary consequence of non-attachment to the aggregates, and so shifts again in the direction of anti-realism.

A similarly idiosyncratic intuition was picked up by Tsongkhapa.

This influence typically goes unacknowledged by modern students of (neo)Theravada. It is also worth noting that this wasn't and isn't universally expressed, as some commentaries clearly retain Sautrantika leanings (can be seen in the Arahattamagga Arahattaphala entry for example).

>>9631561
>>Heart Sutra
>The essence of this is thoroughly captured in better entries
If plebs manage to misinterpret sixteen lines, how much more so 100 or 300 pages. It's one of the most popular in Asia for a reason- it's short, sweet, and to the point.

>>9631561
The Lotus Sutra is highly influential in Pure Land Buddhism, which is one of the more widely practiced sects in East Asia. Nichiren Buddhism is but one fringe sect of the larger whole.

>>9631604
>If plebs manage to misinterpret sixteen lines, how much more so 100 or 300 pages.

100-300 pages of commentary is different than rather flat assertions in a sutra that aren't explained in anyway.

>It's one of the most popular in Asia for a reason- it's short, sweet, and to the point.

Historically, majority of Buddhists were taught through commentaries one way or another, they therefore love(d) the sutra as beautiful summation of something they learned elsewhere.

People that rely on the sutra as their source of explanation tend to have a shallow understanding.

>>9631582
>>Theravada initially seemed to be fairly anti-realist
what would this mean in details? it is ''no phenomena is unconditioned therefore empty'' like buddhists claim today?

>>9631609
>The Lotus Sutra is highly influential in Pure Land Buddhism

I didn't say otherwise, I am merely saying that from what I can tell, the degree is more moderate than commonly held.

An example of the kind of thing I am disagreeing with is represented by >>9628049 's image depicting it it as one of the two central texts representing Mahayana on the whole. Which to me seems outrageous.

My impression is that while influential in Pure Land, it is less relied on in practice than say in Tendai. As I have already mentioned I believe this to be another case of a tradition more moderately emphasizing the text than typically held.

This is obviously complicated by the fact that the text is a compound that has had significant additions over time, which I believes adds to my point.

>Nichiren Buddhism is but one fringe sect of the larger whole.

The point of my mentioning them was only to bracket sects that are explicitly fanatical about the text.

>>9631641
Tendai isn't the shining example of significance in the Buddhist world. The Lotus Sutra introduces the concept of teaching through skillful means, which arguably is one of the most important facets of all Mahayana Buddhism. It also introduces the entire concept of a Buddhist Pure Land, and stresses the importance of Amitabha. If you are going to pick two texts to represent Mahayana's spiritual character and development, The Lotus Sutra and the Diamond Sutra are the best choices by a long shot.

>>9631641
>depicting it it as one of the two central texts representing Mahayana on the whole. Which to me seems outrageous.
I tried to talk to the retard that made that image, but he wouldn't listen to reason.

The role scriptures in general fit into a religious system is unique for each religion there is, nay, each individual religious sect, but he would just throw texts at you with no context, just like that.

File: eelwrigglers.jpg (122KB, 688x496px) Image search: [Google]

122KB, 688x496px

You deluded people could use some down-to-earth info: >>>9631682

>>9631684
By the time of the Buddha Hinduism wasn't the Vedic religion anymore, it was the religion of the Upanishads.

Fuck off.

>>9631713
hinduism is a later development my friend. the upanishads are the philosophic development of the vedas.

>>9631720
Yoga and renouncers were in the Buddha's days.

It has nothing to do with the Vedic religion of the liturgy of animal sacrifices and priests.

I have to go after this.

>>9631617
Simply put, it tended away from asserting non-perceptible objects and towards a more phenomenologically rooted, cognitively constructed world.

>it is ''no phenomena is unconditioned therefore empty'' like buddhists claim today?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

>>9631658
>Tendai isn't the shining example of significance

The point I was making was entirely comparative so I'm not sure what you point here is supposed to be.

>If you are going to pick two texts to represent Mahayana's spiritual character and development, The Lotus Sutra and the Diamond Sutra are the best choices by a long shot.

Sorry we are going to have to agree to disagree here. You are way over privileging far East-Asian Mahayana, and weighting it at the expense of Indian systems, which constitutes the centrality of Mahayana, and at the expense of Indo-Tibetan systems (which constitutes a fair portion of Mahayana itself), where like in India for a fair bit of time, Mahayana continued to develop as well (including the entire Vajrayana branch, which is itself uncommon Mahayana). These systems, which constitute a substantial portion of Mahayana, simply don't pay much attention to these two texts all that much at all.

Furthermore, I think you are exaggerating their historical influence, while though nothing close to trivial, they aren't anything close to the end all be all of Mahayana as a whole.

Choosing either one of these over, for example, a key Madhyamaka shastra for example is completely off the rails to me.
In the end, choosing Lotus Sutra and the Diamond Sutra as the two choices to represent the generality of Mahayana, both in style, emphasis, and substance would leave a reader walking away with a totally bizarre idea of what Mahayana is about, an idea that doesn't match up at all with from I've observed on the grounds of a monastic college.

>skillful means
>Buddhist Pure Land
>Amitabha

All of which are addressed elsewhere and very likely before the Lotus Sutra as we know it came into being.

Additionally the Lotus makes a big deal of various assertions that either play a very small role or are rejected by large portions of Mahayana, such as Ekayana (as such there are serious divergences in how upaya is treated).

Anyway, take care!

>>9631819
What's the point of learning all this? What do you get out of it?