Why did he think that ancient Greece was the pinnacle of civilization?

File: 83271737237.jpg (284KB, 1161x869px) Image search: [Google]

284KB, 1161x869px

thesis-antithesis-sysnthesis

>>9572880
MUH FREEDOM

He started with the Greeks.

>>9572885
Nice meme m8, but real answers would be appreciated.

>>9572880
He didn't think they were the pinnacle. He did think that the sort of unity of culture they had was good for them, and a problem to be solved with modernity.

>>9572880
>Why did he think that ancient Greece was the pinnacle of civilization?

He didn't.

They had not yet developed the dichotomy of individual vs community, but it had to happen eventually. How to solve that dichotomy on a higher stage was the main aim of his philosophy.

>>9573122
This. He may have been fond of the Greeks, but he didn't think the conceptualization of his philosophy was even possible until he did it (I mean, Hegel considered his particular placement in history and nationality necessary to have thought up his philosophy), and that's not even to speak to the actual application of his philosophy to politics. Were he alive today, he may think that the "pinnacle" of civilization still hasn't been reached.

>>9573122
>>9573135
Was this the reason for his almost pantheistic thoughts of Christianity then?

t. stupid person

>>9573122
But why did he think that? Most surviving Greek culture comes from either Athens or parts of Rome. The Greeks themselves were not at all a unified people. When he says Greeks, does he just mean these ones?

>>9573122
>unity of culture
I'm sorry what? Greeks are a collection of cultures and societies, even today they are. The further back in time you go, the more distinct and numerous these cultures and societies are.

Is Hegel the least understood philosopher by /lit/?

When he is brought up it's mostly either because of Marx or to meme about him. It's probably impossible to be Hegelian in this day and age, still his philosophy was a milestone for western culture and I'm baffled so few understand him.

>>9572883
>thesis-antithesis-sysnthesis

I don't recall having ever read these words from him

>>9572880
Eternal woman knew her place

>>9573771
>>9572883

Thesis/antithesis/synthesis is Fichte, not Hegel.

>>9573580

I think before we get down on greeks or whoever else for being unified or not, we'd have to know exactly what period of the culture we're talking about. I mean, egypt went through all kinds of unifications and disunifications as well.

ANYWAY

I've read a decent amount of Hegel, but have never read his Philosophy of History. Unfortunately I cannot help with this topic, but I agree that Hegel is one of the most misunderstood Philosophers in history, most of the time understood as

>Muh proto-fascist
>Muh proto-communist
>Muh traditionalist
or
>Meaningless drivel

Very little effort, I think, has been put into studying Hegel's work on its own, which would be completely justified since he was the last Philosopher to have built a GREAT SYSTEM encompassing all of Logic, Science, Mind/Spirit, and History.

Sure, it's not perfect, but it's definitely worth studying on its own terms.

>>9573771
Competent Hegel scholars number in the tens of thousands. You won't find too many here because /lit/ is overpopulated by undergraduates, who of course, are idiots. Any of them who do know something about Hegel aren't likely to actually contribute, as it would be like using a sponge to save a leaking dam.

Because they were patrician.

Huge output of philosophers, arts, literature and theatre.

>>9573135
>Had not developed the dichotomy of individual vs. community
How do you explain the law of the polis which made strict definitions between individual and private, and public and community? This was even before Roman times.. they were very FUCKING autistic about this dichotomy. Romans too.

>>9573822
>>9573811
As an example, take note of this know-nothing enthusiast, who gleefully shares what he learnt from wikipedia-tier knowledge, has a superficial understanding of Hegel's thoughts on history, but hasn't studied at least 80% of Hegel's works.

>>9573122
>unity of greek culture
i've heard it fucking all

>>9573838
But there was no distinction between private and political life in the Athenean democracy. Every citizen was also a "politician". Zoon politikon and whatnot.

>>9573580
Unity of culture = immediate unity between universal and individual.

>>9573874
You were not a political animal in private life (within household) because way Aristotle (closer to Greek understanding than Plato) understood political was through praxis and bios politikos which requires communication with other equal free citizens (slaves were not free citizens, nor were regular slaves free citizens or women, tradesmen were noto counted among these), this is form of working together with other free citizens is impossible in private sphere, in a household.

Also pre-Socratic understanding of what Aristotle called praxis also requires same web of human interaction in the public sphere with other free citizens..

These people were die hard fucking autistic what is political, what is household shit, what is private, what is public..

>>9573874
Also with zoon politikon you need to understand zoon logon ekhon and that all of these things mattered only in public/political life and by definition were made so that they were impossible to achieve in private life.

They were the pinnacle of art as art

They weren't the pinnacle of "civilization"

They perfected "art-religion" as he calls it, which dissolved after they created it. They came at a time when Spirit's adequate content was humble enough that a sculpture could contain the whole of it (human-body figure seen as imbued with the divine) and also be truly aesthetic in the sense that it moved past the primitive Symbolism of the orient and Egypt. But eventually Spirit progressed to the point where the sculpture could not contain its full message, and therefore it had to be abandoned for something else, freer, more open, and thus we get Christianity, Christian soul, and Christian-Romantic painting and music, eventually ending in literature and Shakespeare. Although the Greeks possessed drama, he thought this was anachronistic, and that drama properly belongs to the Late "Romantic" where art is about to collapse and lead into the Philosophy of Religion, which then collapses into pure Philosophy, which leads to German Idealism, which leads to himself.

>>9572880
>Why did he think that ancient Greece was the pinnacle of civilization
He didn't. Greek civilisation was the pinnacle of Art as Geist. But art is below religion and philosophy.

>>9574303
it's not really "below" but just first before the others, leading into them

>>9573207
There have been many pantheistic sects of christian. He was influenced by a esoteric named Boehme, who was of this sort. Hegel is actually pretty orthodox compared to Schelling who went full Spinoza.

>>9573207
Hegel is a panentheist

He believes in both Transcendence and Immanence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism

>>9572883
>x
>-x
>x^2
so this is the power of philosophy...

File: leibniz_3.jpg (38KB, 300x346px) Image search: [Google]

38KB, 300x346px

>>9574341
>"mathematician" making fun of philosophy

>>9573822
>Competent Hegel scholars number in the tens of thousands
And the rest.

>>9574332
Indeed, Hegel thought that the Christ (though it doesn't seem that his Christ is necessarily Jesus) is a necessary element of any theology. The Christ the godhead made concrete.

Which Schelling would you recommend reading to get the big picture of his thought? I've read the philosophy of freedom and some of the natural philosophy. They don't seem very foundational.

>>9574341

THESIS ANTITHESIS SYNTHESIS IS FICHTE NOT HEGEL

(sorry for the caps, it's just that it's easy to ignore)

>>9573223
>>9573580
Should've been more clear, but by unity of culture, I didn't mean (nor did I mean to imply Hegel thought) that there was a unity between the Greeks as peoples, but rather that the essential elements of their culture offered a kind of unity. I'm thinking of the place of Beauty among the Greeks as a whole, and the way the Beautiful functioned among them in their lives, myths, and religious obligations, but that's not to say in terms of specific practices and customs.

He didn't think Greece was the pinnacle of civilisation. You should read the first 50 pages of Charles Taylor's book, called simply Hegel. It will explain a lot. It's the foundation on which modern Hegel scholarship really rests, and it put forward the basic thesis that three streams of thought dominated 18th-century German philosophy (all of which culminated in Hegel, at least as their most rigorous and synthetic formulation).

Greece was the perfect manifestation of expressive unity. The will of every citizen of the Polis was perfectly expressed as, in, and through the Polis. Like the other guy above says, this is nice, but the result is that they were completely incapable of conceptualising (literally) individual human freedom, people as sovereign ends-in-themselves, etc. It was ecstatic communalism. The upshot of this is that the Germans were afflicted by the pangs of modern conscience, and by the acutely painful separation made between modern rational consciousness and nature by science and philosophy.

For some, the answer was to reunite with the lost Eden of Greece in Romantic ecstasy (or with all-overcoming Christian love and brotherhood, or with nature itself, or with the mystical "One" and source of the cosmos), but all of these entail a going-backwards. Hegel said, fuck that, we developed OUT of our initial naive unity so that we could rediscover it and uplift it in a higher form of unity, one that can encompass BOTH separation and togetherness, BOTH individuality and community, etc.

The historical reason for "why Greece" is also covered in Taylor pretty well. They were rediscovering Greece and the Ancients through a Romantic lens, and they were profoundly discontent with their own era. The Way Things Were In 1780~ was just bad, sterile, stuffy, and covered in the scrap of dogmatism and ignorance. They wanted to create a whole new world, so some of them naturally looked back at those who had done it Right. Same reason they also all had high hopes for the French Revolution.

>>9573135
Lmao thank you man who hasn't even cracked the spine of The Republic.

>>9573811
lol at that Fichte comment
Fichte only started it. It is VERY Hegel

>>9574301
As a Philosophy major who has taken 3 courses featuring Hegel, this is the most accurate comment in the thread. toast to you

>>9575785
Everything you say is like... the opposite of true

>>9576200
Thanks mate, just finished a course in him myself this past semester. Interesting stuff. What did they teach you in your classes?

>>9575896

Nice post. I enjoyed reading it! Sincerely hope you aren't also one of the arrogant pricks who've been trashing the thread.

Have you read Stanley Rosen? He seems to be pretty big on the monism-dualism thing in Hegel as well.

>>9576208
did it happen to be aesthetics? in norcal?
I've studied him after Kantianism and in the context of German Idealism in general

>>9572880
No he thought the Prussian state in the early 1800s was the pinnacle. Haven't you made it through the Logic?

>>9573771
The best philosophy in America is a Hegelian, what are you talking about

>>9572883
thanks Caesar, now about that platinum chip...

>>9572880
hegel was jumping out that cab to catch that boy tail! 100 100 100 couldn't you see it happening!!!

He probably recognized the greek polis (athens being the prime example) as the perfect vessel for the Weltgeist

t. hasn't read anything he said about the greeks

>>9576192
Hegel rejected any kind of simplistic formula for the dialectic, don't be stupid.

>>9575785
>Which Schelling would you recommend reading to get the big picture of his thought?
I have only read the System of Transcedental Idealism which is the muh nature = mind book, only one translated in my language. If you want the finished Schelling you should try his book Mythology. I've read papers on it and it seems interesting. Jung in particular likes that one.

>>9572880
He believed that in ancient greece were antecedents of what modernity would be. Specifically in Aristotle and Sophocles, he even calls the pre modern man.

>>9577277
>gay phedopiles was his ideal human

what the fuck

File: education-in-ancient-rome-5-728[1].jpg_cb=1265754781.jpg (113KB, 728x546px) Image search: [Google]

113KB, 728x546px

>>9572880
>Why did he think that ancient Greece was the pinnacle of civilization
Because it was universally accepted to be the truth at the time.

In ancient times Greek education was the unquestioned gold standard. They quite literally invented the academy.
Rhetor, Dialectic, and Philosophy(read:science) were only taught in Greek and everyone in the west would learn Greek just to study those things.

>>9577299
What do you think is the difference between Plato/Aristotle and modern thinker (lets say Wittgenstein) in terms of IQ due to Flynn effect?

Everything in Plato's writings seems self-evident nowadays. Not saying they are retards, maybe just thinking how much the physical brain and its power has grown.

>>9573856

highly underrated post

>>9577311
>IQ
>Everything in Plato's writings seems self-evident nowadays
Because history proved them right.
Everything seems self evident after it's been proven to work.

The success of the electricity, the automobile, the aircraft, the cell phone, the Internet, all seem self-evident nowadays.

This is not really saying anything other then "look how dumb all the people that came before us are for not knowing what we know now before they discovered it".

File: 130.jpg (38KB, 600x522px) Image search: [Google]

38KB, 600x522px

>>9577311
>IQ

File: foucault56.jpg (83KB, 338x450px) Image search: [Google]

83KB, 338x450px

>>9572880
Homosexuality, let's be real here at the end of the day sexual pleasure is what matters.

>>9576376
It was Aesthetics in NYC. Good class. Id love to learn more about Kantian and Hegelian Idealism. Do you think Hegel's Encyclopedia is worth getting? How important did your professor make it seem compared to Phenomenology, Philosophy of History, and the Philosophy of Right?

>>9577352
>Plato's writings self-evident
Pleb.