Am I supposed to hate Moses? He's written as a cynical,

>>9526409
>Am I supposed to hate Moses?
Hateful much, anon?

>>9526409
I don't think so, he was just trying to please YHWH. Ancient near eastern gods and people were generally harsh dudes.

What I don't get is why all his fuck ups are in there. In jewish belief he's THE prophet, and an example fir everythone afterwards. But YHWH keeps getting angry at him for letting the Israelites fuck up again and again. In Exodus he didn't even want to lead the Israelites becuase he was too scared and YHWH basically tells him to do it or else. As a final punishment he's not even allowed to enter the promised land.

>>9526575
>What I don't get is why all his fuck ups are in there.

The ancient authors sought to portray him as utterly human, and not even an ideal one.
Compare this to Islam's treatment of Muhammad as an ideal of masculinity and humanity.

>>9526575
>What I don't get is why all his fuck ups are in there

It's almost as if thats the basic structure of parable or something

>>9526409
>He's written as a cynical, manipulative, bloodthirsty cult leader who will stop at nothing when it comes to gaining power
What the fuck are you reading? He's literally the only person in the Bible that flat out told God "no" when God approached him with a task. He broke the fucking ten commandments, like the physical tablets, and God made him recarve new tablets himself, when the slaves he rescued made an idol to worship he made them eat it, and he died in the goddamn desert. He gained literally no power at all and was by far the most reluctant, angry, and impatient biblical figure.
He was definitely an asshole, but "cynical, manipulative cult leader" is ridiculous.

Moses is revered for writing the pentateuch and saving the Jews from Egypt, not for his noble characteristics. Everyone knows he was a dick

>>9526707
>when the slaves he rescued made an idol to worship he made them eat it

And ordered the execution of 3000 of them.

>>9526867
After saving the rest from God, who in his infinite mercy was going to blast the lot of 'em.

>>9526409
Moses was an Egyptian. Why else would he have royal connections and an important administrative role? Sounds more like he went separatist.

>>9526891
That's just the typical manipulative cult stuff though. "God actually wanted to kill you all, but thanks to MY INTERVENTION we only have to kill these 3000 guys who happen to be my enemies. Also I am the only one who has access to God."

>>9526909
yeah but he was proven right. As it was written in the scriptures, those that claimed to have a relationship with God but did not would be exposed when their premonitions did not come to pass. It was only Moses and his successor Joshua who had this access, and their leadership delivered Israel their promised land.

>>9526409
>Am I supposed to hate Moses?
Of course. He was raised by Egyptians, disobeys God by striking the stone instead of speaking to it, and isn't allowed to enter the holy land.

>>9526409
>he's written as a cynical, manipulative, bloodthirsty cult leader

You mean he's interpreted that way by you, the reader. I read him as an imperfect man that did his best to instill the laws of God into his people while leading them to a promised land and a better future.

He wasn't even permitted to enter the promise land due to one moment in which he and Aaron failed to have complete faith in God. He accepted this fate and died, knowing that his sacrifice would pay off for the generations who followed him. He willingly gave up all of his power after 40+ years of basically complete control.

I cannot understand how you derived your interpretation.

>>9527079
>their promised land.

That's another thing. These people think they are the chosen people of an omnipotent God, and the best he can do for them is a tiny strip of shit land in the Middle East surrounded by enemies? They got gypped! Why couldn't he take them to the Bahamas, or maybe the Seychelles?

>>9527100
Conflict is fun you neeerd

>>9527144

We've got a drama queen up in here.

>>9527196
IDIFTL is the only way anything makes sense
Prove me wrong

>>9527100
>why didn't they just use the eagles from the beginning

just shut up and enjoy the story. It's your duty.

>>9526909
Man it's almost like you can interpret anyone's actions as bad when you start from the assumption that they're a bad person.

Fuckin' crazy, huh?

>>9527987
So you're telling me if I go in with an open mind, I will interpret murdering 3000 people as a positive thing?

It _really_ wasn't that long ago that God was telling him "You shall not murder" btw.

>>9526409
Why do you ask for what you're supposed to feel instead of just feeling it?

>>9528004
dude, if you're pearl-clutching over 3000 idolaters being slain in the Bible, maybe you need to put it down.

Much of the Old Testament is about the violence one needs to direct towards temptations and other impulses which steer him away from the path of God and towards material and self-worship.

This is illustrated through different peoples who live in Sin and worship other gods being put to the sword. It's also a historical account, and chronicles battles and power struggles fought between different tribes of the time.

The fact that you said "murdering 3000 people as a positive thing?" indicates to me that you're a pacifist, and don't believe there is such a thing as a just killing. Therefore, you must view all of human history as a colossal human rights violation. This pacifist worldview is at odds with the history of Western society, and will be at odds with the Bible, which has been the moral bedrock for Western culture for nearly the past two millennia.

I think your surprise and confusion about finding this violence in the Bible indicates that you don't have a firm grasp on the history of the world you live in. Take some time to reflect on what people have historically considered a just killing, and what people still do to this very day. You'll find that there's a difference between an unjust murder and a just killing. As a pacifist, there may be no difference to you, but you should recognize that you are in a small minority in the scope of human history.

>>9529955
Now reconcile this with the Egyptians being portrayed negatively.

>>9529955
Do you think just slavery or just genocide exist?

>>9529975
found the underage poster

>>9529975
No they both do.

>>9529955
>worship other gods
>just killing

Truly, morality would be impossible without this guidance.

>>9530034
morality isn't a thing that can be made possible or impossible. Everyone believes in some form of morality, and discourse between peoples and cultures puts these moralities in competition with one another.

To address what I think to be your misunderstanding of Christian morality, I have never heard someone I consider to be an intelligent Christian say that morality cannot exist outside of Christianity. I think that's a delusion that's been invented by enemies of Christianity to discredit their opponents.

>>9530836
If morality comes straight from YHWH, how could it possibly exist in his absence?

If you can't understand that Moses is a flawed man living in a savage and brutal world that, while he does do really bad things, is trying to be the best he can and do right by his people and by his god, you'll always be a plebtheist fedora brainlet

>>9526409
This is b8.

>>9530836
>I have never heard someone I consider to be an intelligent Christian say that morality cannot exist outside of Christianity
>I think that's a delusion that's been invented by enemies of Christianity to discredit their opponents
Nigger Christians say it literally all the time. You could argue that these people are "not real Christians" and we shouldn't treat them as a monolith, but considering that is a curtesy that not offered to ANY group of people, especially not by Christians, I don't see what you want.

>>9526666
>do we do checks on this board?
but yeah, human flaw is very important in Judaism, Israel means wrestles with God

>>9529968
Kinda crazy that the verb used when Sarah oppresses Hagar is the same verb used typically to describe the oppression of the Israelites by Egypt. Kinda crazy because Hagar is Egyptian. And the text describes Sarah in really unfavorable terms. Kinda like the Bible almost wants us to think even a Jew can be as bad as Egypt, the motif of evil and oppression in the Bible

>>9532256
Meme cultural christians with no true faith don't count

>>9530852
Not what I'm arguing. Nothing can exist in the absence of God, since he is the creator and prime mover. Morality, just like everything else, can't exist in his absence.

But you don't need to be a Christian for the above to hold true, morality exists whether people choose to have faith or not.

>>9532256
I wouldn't say "they're not real Christians," I would say maybe they don't have a firm grasp on what they claim to have knowledge of.

If a student is studying medicine, and you ask him a question about anatomy, and he gets it wrong; is that a mark against the entire medical community? Should we abandon the field of medicine? No, we should elevate our questioning to someone who has more knowledge.

And I still find it hard to believe that very many Christians say "morality cannot exist outside of Christianity." Because that would mean there was no morality prior to the first century AD. They may believe that Christianity offers the BEST in the way of moral teaching, or that Christianity is the only way to eternal salvation, of course. But those are entirely separate statements from the ridiculous claim that morality only exists within Christianity.