Find 1 (one) error in any of the three volumes of Marx's

>>9525912
Maybe, but Stirner eternally btfo communism anyway and make Marx throw a Tanty.

communism doesnt work dumbass

>>9525932
Real communism has never been tried :)

>>9525932
FULLY
AUTOMATED
LUXURY
COMMUNISM

>>9525935
Has any country called itself "communist" to begin with? The Soviets made a point out of not doing so so they would have something to promise for the future.

>>9525912
He never once comes up with a solution for me to get a girlfriend.
At least in capitalism there's a slim chance I can be richer than Chad

>>9525912

Kinda wish he never wrote the manifesto so that people could really appreciate the well thought criticism in Das Kapital. As of now, even in this thread there will be people talking about communisn and revolution, conflating his other works with this one (that should be a staple of both Left and Right leaning thinkers really).

No marginal value

>>9525932
Capital is primarily Marx's analysis of the capitalist mode of production. He doesn't really go into the details about communism in it.

>>9525949
>>9525975
>tfw when you realize that the fact that polposters -- ironic or unironic -- don't use the part in the manifesto about introducing "community of women" to call leftists cucks is an example of how little /lit/ reads

>>9525912
>Marx’s dark prophecy came no closer to being realized than Ricardo’s. In the last third of the nineteenth century, wages finally began to increase: the improvement in the purchasing power of workers spread everywhere, and this changed the situation radically, even if extreme inequalities persisted and in some respects continued to increase until World War I. The communist revolution did indeed take place, but in the most backward country in Europe, Russia, where the Industrial Revolution had scarcely begun, whereas the most advanced European countries explored other, social democratic avenues—fortunately for their citizens. Like his predecessors, Marx totally neglected the possibility of durable technological progress and steadily increasing productivity, which is a force that can to some extent serve as a counterweight to the process of accumulation and concentration of private capital. He no doubt lacked the statistical data needed to refine his predictions. He probably suffered as well from having decided on his conclusions in 1848, before embarking on the research needed to justify them. Marx evidently wrote in great political fervor, which at times led him to issue hasty pronouncements from which it was difficult to escape. That is why economic theory needs to be rooted in historical sources that are as complete as possible, and in this respect Marx did not exploit all the possibilities available to him.8 What is more, he devoted little thought to the question of how a society in which private capital had been totally abolished would be organized politically and economically—a complex issue if ever there was one, as shown by the tragic totalitarian experiments undertaken in states where private capital was abolished.

-Piketty

I look forward to the neo-marxists prophesying the fall of capitalism getting blown out by unlimited growth due to automation and AI - the eradication of the proletariat for better or worse.

Dialectics
LTV
Tendency of falling rate of profit

>>9525975
That's because almost nobody except has actually read Das Kapital in its entirety.

>>9525998

You say that but i see young people reading it all the time. You're out of touch with your peers because you spend all day on 4chan.

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>>9525935

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>>9526019

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>>9526019
>>9526039
Get on my level

>>9526019
>4 different leninists being leninists
wow, I guess socialism fails whatever angle of it you try

>>9526039
Every one of those is either a communist movement that never gained traction, or a communist movement that failed as bad as the other ones but is just well known.

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>>9526077
I love when leftist ideologues memorialize allende, but say nothing about the economic results of his short tenure

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>>9526085
H-he just never got to build his Star Trek spaceship

>>9526085

The United States was actively sabotaging the country.

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Marginal Utility.

that was easy.

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>>9526089
pic related

>>9526094
nice go-to excuse for X leftist regime

>>9526094
yeah because he was actively sabotaging the US's investments.

>>9525912
Marx completely ignores major social factors.

>>9526122
Like what?

>>9525912
>man is defined by his work
>we should create a society where everything is so efficient that we don't have to work
ok

>>9526131
see
>>9525994

>What is more, he devoted little thought to the question of how a society in which private capital had been totally abolished would be organized politically and economically—a complex issue if ever there was one, as shown by the tragic totalitarian experiments undertaken in states where private capital was abolished.

>>9525991
wasn't he calling the bourgeois cucks in that section though?

>>9526131
Like leisure

>>9526144
What is more, he this infuriates the marxist ignores basic human nature: greed, lust for power, disdain for perceived lessers.

>>9526131
he completely reduced alienation to mere economic factors, rather than social, cultural, and political forces.

>>9526150
Not to mention pure existencial dread

>>9526063
10/10

>bourgeois are bad because they're a leisure class
>we should turn the whole planet into a single leisure class
??

>>9526149
do you have a single fact to back that up?

>>9526163

Bourgeois being 'bad' isn't a Marxist idea, thats just millenia of working class envy showing itself.

No legit communist suggests transitioning to a leisure society, that is a delusional projection by crypto-protestant liberals.

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>>9526154
there's a way out of that.

>>9526165
Repressing the most basic aspects of Human nature results in the documented experiments that Communism has shown to be.

>>9526174

There are several. Insert images of everyone from Sartre to Rumi here.

>>9525991
>For the rest, nothing is more ridiculous than the virtuous indignation of our bourgeois at the community of women which, they pretend, is to be openly and officially established by the Communists. The Communists have no need to introduce community of women; it has existed almost from time immemorial.
>Our bourgeois, not content with having wives and daughters of their proletarians at their disposal, not to speak of common prostitutes, take the greatest pleasure in seducing each other’s wives.
>Bourgeois marriage is, in reality, a system of wives in common and thus, at the most, what the Communists might possibly be reproached with is that they desire to introduce, in substitution for a hypocritically concealed, an openly legalised community of women. For the rest, it is self-evident that the abolition of the present system of production must bring with it the abolition of the community of women springing from that system, i.e., of prostitution both public and private.
yeah, in short, he was saying they're both cucks.

>>9526175
I'm not communist, and you have no proof of calling those emotions merely "basic." I could easily claim altruism, and courage are part of human nature.

>history, human society and language all arise from the division of labor
>we'll stop that division of labor shit ASAP
???

>>9526174
>Dude just make up your own meaning lmao

>>9526149
>materialists ignore greed
>>9526173
>millenia
capitalism isn't even that old

>>9526203
>dude just don't read Nietzsche and spout memes about him lmao
????

>>9526212
Nietzsche is nothing but memes

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>tfw Leftist who hates nearly every Leftist you see

>>9526217
You'd indeed know, as your exposure to him begins and ends with /lit/ memes.

>>9526198
The need to strive and competition between males is not a basic instinct?

I seriously hope you're not implying that.

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>>9526165
>>9526198
>

>>9526222
This is how anyone who subscribes to and is well read on any political position feels.

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>>9526225
>pick uo Geneology of Morals
>starts talking about magic Dragons and shit

I'll stick with memes bud

>>9526239
Yeah, you do that.

>>9525912
the premise

>>9526231
If it is then why do I stay at home masturbating everyday?

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>>9526231
Mutual aid. And there's more than one type of competition. In fact, competition doesn't necessitate greed as you'd think, nor can you make an apriori connection to it.
>>9526233
ebin, bud I prefer my own thinkers.

>>9526208

Class structure existed before capitalism you dingbat.

>>9526250
Because you've been defeated ; you've given up. And this is good: the weak and the sick should stay indoors, as to alleviate the world from their sight.

>>9526253
>bud
*but, I had sausage fingers for a moment.

>>9526253
Who is that turbokike?

>>9526250
>If it is then why do I stay at home masturbating everyday?
Because you know you have no hope of finding a mate.
>Mutual aid. And there's more than one type of competition. In fact, competition doesn't necessitate greed as you'd think, nor can you make an apriori connection to it.

You're wrong, we instinctively compete to find the best mate we can with the purpose of breeding. Every decision a non Nihilistic person makes is to strive and stand on top of the mediocre masses.

>>9526271
>>9526261
Ok, now tell me what you really think

>>9526253
>Mutual aid
The is the funniest thing I've read so far.

>>9526267
Rothbard.
>>9526278
>evolutionary theory is funny
okay, so you admit to being retarded. Well I'm glad the conversation is over.

>>9526278

Pretty sad that you think this, especially since mutual aid was one of the tenets that the United States was built upon, and that which committed most to it's growth as a fair and egalitarian society.

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>>9526289
>Evolution
>Helping the weak strive

>>9526278
>>9526289
>>9526293
Can you both stop being retarded, evolution produced both ant colonies and great white sharks. Stop acting like we have to essentialize nature into predicting an economic system

>>9525912
the labor theory of value is descriptively false, even if you take the more sophisticated "current socially necessary labor-time" version

>>9525912
Marx failed to properly grasp or expose the full historicity of quantitative abstract labour... the centrality of labour is exactly what constitutes capitalism: all human relations being reduced to mere quantitative productive relations and nature being transformed into a standing reserve for commodity production.
In Capital there was a latent move towards trying to understand all historical societies (future and past) as they are determined by the abstract algebraic formula (S'/V+C), their breakdown and reconstitution. That's not possible, capitalist accumulation is a specific form of human society, this has to be situated within the grander empirical setting of the issue of rent, which he failed at doing properly in volume 3.
A phenomenology of rent, that is an actual reconstruction of the logic of rent as a historical process in its full dynamics can essiently serve as postscript of sorts to all human development.

>>9526103
Marginalism uses individual psychological desires to explain demand for goods and the given supply of labour which produced the demanded goods. All you do here is shift the focus toward a demand side explanation of supply, demand and price as opposed to the supply side explanation rooted in the actual production process provided by the LTV. The LTV never neglected individual consumer preference but it was always secondary to the more fundamental important qualitative dynamics of supply.
When prices change, it's generally true, that the quantity of demand/supply also changes but that doesn't actually explain why prices actually initially change, supply is always changing as a result of developments in technology/natural science (outside of the domain of analysis of "economics" as a strictly formal mathematical affair) and changes in the quantity of time necessary to produce a given quantity of goods.
The entire logical edifice is built on the presupposition that people always try to "maximize utility" but I could just as easily presuppose people attempt to "minimize disutility" and present an explanation of all economic phenomena on that basis.
I am not claiming marginal utility is totally wrong because you can draw some pretty curves to prove pretty much anything you want with it. ;)

>>9525912

income, and not ownership of of the means of production, is how society is divided in the west.

the proletarian class is also becoming increasingly irrelevant due to to robotics. They are more a burden than a source of wealth.

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>>9526329
Marxs whole work was a critique of the classical economists conception of the LTV and is entirely premised on the law of value having to breakdown. I would say this did in fact happen in the 1930s i.e. the first measures Roosevelt implemented to end the Great Depression was called the Agriculture Adjustment Act of 1933, when Roosevelt simply stepped in, purchased all the excess crops and destroyed them to support crop prices. The second example was Executive Order 6102, where, to reduce wages in a comprehensive fashion, rather than slashing them factory by factory, Roosevelt simply devalued the currency from $20.67 to $35, where they stayed until the United States debased the currency altogether in 1971 by the fascistic Nixon administration when it got off the gold standard:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_Adjustment_Act
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_shock
His mistake was assuming an emancipatory socialism would emerge instead of a violent statist regulatory corporate liberalism.
Today we can clearly see freedom isn't NECESSARY [in the sense classical german idealism conceptualized necessity] (technological development doesn't guarantee freedom, it's enslaving us more in new ways) nor is history NECESSARILY rational.
If abstract labour isn't abolished production will destroy itself... the petro economy will either disappear [climate change] or be destroyed [politicans, CEOs, etc killed in mass]. Capitals automation is making proletarians, with the capacity of an expansive awareness, disappear. But even a "societal collapse" resulting from dramatic climatic change offers a window of emancipatory change, marauding stateless gangs organized on democratic principles could be the agents of revolution.

>>9526260
Yes?

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>>9526291
>a fair and egalitarian society.

>>9525912
The whole idea that capitalism would eventually develop into socialism by means of the materialist dialectic. Over a century later and capitalism is stronger than ever, and it's antithetical alternatives have got weaker not stronger.

>>9526514
Taytay is an egalitarian in the bed if you know what I mean

>>9526114
>build a ethical socialist state
>the US sabotages you, you fail as a result
>tards on /lit/ mocks you

>build a pragmatic socialist state
>the US sabotages you
>you take harsh, highly unethical countermeasures in order to resist this attack
>wooow, see??? socialism always degenerates into dictatorship!!!!

^ideology

>>9526106
Because it's usually true.

I say usually because sometimes it was the Soviet Union doing the sabotaging.

>>9526149
>>9526175
>>9526231
There's gotta be some kinda mirror-world naivety where you reduce everyone and everything down to your favourite negative traits.

>>9526915
Not an argument.

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>>9525912
Nice

>>9526921
Yes it is. If you can't pick it apart for yourself it's something like
>this is a simplistic view of the world ignoring a great many (counteractive, i.e. good) factors

>>9526900
I don't know what you mean.

>>9525932
okay, but what about marx critique of capitalism? it doesn't follow that by agreeing with his critique you also MUST accept communism... You can state there are issues with capitalism without believing there to be a better system to replace it.

>>9525988
Bump

People need to stop confusing Capital and the Manifesto. Capital is one of the more important economic texts that any serious economics course would prescribe you regardless of political affiliation. The idea that its some ideological treatise is a sign of ignorance.

>>9527245
>John Maynard Keynes referred to Das Kapital as "an obsolete textbook which I know to be not only scientifically erroneous but without interest or application for the modern world"
lmao what """""Serious economics course(s)"""""" are you even referring to my man

>>9525994
>Marx totally neglected the possibility of durable technological progress and steadily increasing productivity
Except he didn't and this was central to his thought, it's literally why:
>the rate of return on capital would steadily diminish
And it has indeed, this is empirically proven if you have an accurate notion of what capital/profit is (Piketty does not). Technical progress/productivity, in other words the organic composition of capital, can rise indefinitely theoretically. But in practice it can't because the effect it causes is falling profitability, which strangles capitalism's capacity to progress. In contrast, this:
>capital’s share of national income would increase indefinitely
is impossible even theoretically because there is a natural/biological limit to how much a worker can be exploited. Therefore there's an inherent limit to how much greater inequality/exploitation can restore profitability.

>>9527911

If Keynes hates it then it ought to be good and not astrology-with-calculus like most economic courses nowadays.

>>9526371 is one of the few points in this thread that actually relate to Das Kapital and not to the Manifesto, and I agree with it. But to be fair, rent is not the strong point of any thinker even after Marx. And even today it has been completely turned around to make people believe it is going to trickle down and promote wealth increase to the lesser favored someday. Muh shareholder value I guess.

>>9526094
Yeah, because he was too much of a faggot to create a chilelean red army.

>>9527966
>If Keynes hates it then it ought to be good and not astrology-with-calculus like most economic courses nowadays.
What are you even trying to say here, you dense fuck? All I'm hearing is ad hominem. Are you implying that an objective mathematical basis to economics is bad? Stop posting.

>>9526085
Iread an article in Black Belt magazine about a guy who'd grown up a street thug that used to bait cops into chases, eventually he got into hap ki do and eventually became this macho operator type employed by the cia to take out soft targets in chile like churches, power stations and schools.
As a teenager in the 80s i was amazed that this story was reported as if it was a good thing that the US govt employed mercenaries to destabilise democratically elected governments in the region. He was no Michael Echanis, but still.
>sanctions, embargo, fuck it shoot em
>US foreign policy
lol fuck your graph

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>>9527939
>there is a natural/biological limit to how much a worker can be exploited

And this is an extreme example, he could have considered what the cotton gin did for productivity. And if he had watched ST:TNG he could have considered Dyson Spheres.

And you need capital to begin to replace the worker.

>But in practice it can't because the effect it causes is falling profitability

If you have yearly salary + benefits vs a kiosk for a service worker, profitability suffers on the side of the worker.

>>9528037
First of all, your anecdote about covert operators in chile is a bad argument.

Secondly, the arguments of >>9526039, ie "fuckin pigdogs keep fucking up the revolution" should be irrelevant if the revolution is imminent and unavoidable. Instead a few CIA plants in a truckers union brings down the whole deck of cards. If that isnt systemic weakness I dont know what is.

And of course it wasnt just CIA, it was resistance of the whole entrenched elite, and if Allende's revolution would have proved successful, another elite with profit motive would have arisen in their place.

>>9525912
The edition I have has a typo
Checkmate

would anyone be interested in a Capital reading group on /lit/? with supplemental videos in-between readings?

>>9526114
>he was actively sabotaging the US's investments
good, fuck them

>>9528140
>you need capital to begin to replace the worker.

This could be the critical dilemma of the 21st century.

>>9528307
Yeah I would. It'd make it easier to be motivated to read it since it's so long. If you start the thread I'll join.

they spelled his name wrong on the title page he's actually named Carl

>>9525912
That's an easy one. Class is a non-empirical categorization of what in reality is a far more fluid set of economic groups who follow fiscal trajectories throughout life. Class doesn't actually exist, and Class Struggle doesn't exist either. This would be obvious to anyone who has read actual history without the stratifying lens of Marxism to distort it.

>>9528307
Yes. Please start this.

>>9528307
Interested. I miss the old group readthroughs. /lit/ used to have so many of these back in the day

>tfw I fell for the marxism meme and none of your posts are convincing me otherwise

someone please save me from this nightmare

>>9525912
He never accounted for innovation. What for; since communism was the end goal anyway. Once it is reached, everything can just rot away.

>>9529117
ever think about human nature ;^)

>>9525935
Actually, it has continually been tried... but the way things deteriorated is just its inevitable outcome. Things can go no other way, because people are selfish individuals and there will always be corrupt sociopaths like Stalin playing its structure to their advantage.

Just give up. Progress and utopia is a lie perpetuated by snakes. Everyone who pushes for it deep down even know themselves that it's bullshit, but do it for their own self-image and sense of righteousness.

All Marxists should hang.

>smiling reminder that Marx's ideas have killed more innocent people than fascism ever did or will

>>9529146
>ideas can kill people
t. Brainwashed American teenager.

By that logic the most people ever killed was due to the idea and inventor of the Sumerian alphabet

>>9529154
That's too general though. Marxism literally prescribed slaughtering people born into certain classes.

The fact that anyone still gets away with taking him seriously as a voice for good is outrageous.

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>>9529146
>"""innocent"""

>>9529163
>Marxism literally prescribed slaughtering people born into certain classes

t. never read Marx

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>>9529163
>good

>>9529219
Oh, I've read most of Marx's stuff.

I read everything, especially leftist theorists.

>>9529163
a citation would be nice
that actually goes for this thread in general

>>9525995
LTV is valid, it's a better predictor of prices than Marginalism.

>>9529226
Good to know.

So what are your thoughts on the Schematic Presentation of Accumulation in Volume II of Das Kapital?

>>9529163
>literally prescribed slaughtering people
Marx is shit, but his was ideological economics. His problem was that he never actually put down how to deal with people that thought he was shit, for better or for worse.

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how do you measure value and demand

also who measures it

>>9529163
>Enemies should be left alive

Yeah they should come and fuck our wives too

>>9529676
When superabundance is attained, you don't.

>>9528012

>Responding to the ad hominem response to an ad hominem with an ad hominem

The Ouroboros twists and turns. Anyway, an objective mathematical basis to economics is a good thing, but in Keynes there is none of that. To start with, economics grossly underestimate the nonlinear contributions of even their most basic models, and completely ignore the transition region of micro/macro economics, somehow claiming only the bigger picture matters if you zoom out and consider all of the population. It has failed to predict crises that even Volume 1 Kapital Marx would have, and has utterly failed in addressing rent and wealth concentration, instead promoting it by claiming somehow this system is going to stabilize at more wealth distribution (so this function always increases its value, I bet it's going to stop someday! top kek). I unironically recommend Taleb on why using statistics to cope with society is a dangerous endeavour.

>>9525975
I have

>>9529832

Meant for
>>9525998

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I don't disagree with his criticism, I disagree with his solutions.

His solutions were tried and they spawned a worse society than the one he critiqued, full of famines, totalitarian social structures and brutal domination, not to mention genocide.

>>9529847
what solutions did marx propose and in what texts did he propose them

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>>9529862

>>9529862

He proposes them all in the Manifesto. On Das Kapital however, only the nature of capitalism is discussed.

>>9529878
poor nobility

>>9529926
I hope you are aware that you're only illustrating that you're a sociopath when you're saying stuff like that, and not illustrating how morally righteous you are.

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>>9529974
>tfw when you were going to pay expensive money for a psychiatric evaluation but then someone gives you a diagnosis for free
ty based internet

>>9529997
>tfw when you were going to pay expensive money for a psychiatric evaluation

I hope you still do it, because you need one.

>>9529998
what could could a psychiatrist tell me that you, O mighty knower of the human soul, couldn't

>>9530011
A smart psychiatrist will probably tell you that you should stop projecting your resentment of life on politics.

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>>9530016
but now you've already told me that!

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>>9529926
Here is your nobility. He owned his own plow.

>>9530032
yes that's obviously the kind of person that was meant by the word 'nobility' in >>9529878

>>9530042
>>9530042
I see emigrants and rebels, which clearly was extended to class rebels, which clearly was extended to the kulaks. Nobility was the poster's words.

>>9530054
>Nobility was the poster's words
also mine

I think at least we can all agree that communism will win

>>9528307
Yeah man let's do it

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>when someone tries to read das kapital before first having read and understood all of wischenshafft der logik

>>9525912
Marx is not even wrong most of the time, and the rest of the time his insights are trivial.

>>9530584
>>9525912
I forgot to add: one obvious error is that he thought that fiat money, like we use today, could not be money.

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>>9525937
Yes but first

BLACK
CHRISTIAN
COMMUNISM

>>9525912
it's spelled Capital... sorry Karl :/

>>9526019
Capital by Marx has almost nothing to do with Socialism. The book is an analysis of the Capitalist mode of production

Can a person without background on the subject read Das Kapital?

>>9531370

With a minimum amount of being used to reading non-fiction (not even muh start with the greeks, just be ready to read theoretical stuff), most people would benefit from Das Kapital really.

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>>9529878
>putting all property in the hands of a non-democratic institution beyond any worker control is 'abolishing private property'

>>9530400
>wasting time on that shit

>>9530383
Why do you say that?

>>9528307
I'm up for it.

The assumption that only physical labour produces value.

>>9533711
He never said this though. He accounts for labour as physical, mental etc. and also talks about capital (as in machinery) as labour

>>9533722
He clearly says that a Sales Agent does nor create value yet he/she is also a victim of exploitation.
The idea permeates his reasoning regardless of how/if it is explicitly stated.

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>>9525912

>>9535423
Dude memes XD

>>9528307
What happened to this idea? From f the poster not follow through?

>>9529819
>no mathematical basis to Keynes
stop it.
>economics completely ignores the transition region of micro/macro economics
this is also objectively false- this is a primary concern of structuralist economics.
>it has failed to predict crises that even Volume 1 Marx would have
are we looking at the same economics, you and I? Differing schools of thought in economics predict different crises- just because the Austrians say the Great Depression occurred for different reasons than Keynesians do doesn't mean that economics is an intellectually bankrupt science.
>rent and wealth concentration
the purchasing power of the worldwide proletariat (if we can call it that- try and tell me with a straight face that a 19th century view on class hasn't evolved at all since) has by and large increased- a small number of people getting filthy rich doesn't negate the overall improvement in living standards for everyone (even in the face of stagnant wages in developed economies- try a non-Eurocentric approach ;-) ). This is an observable trend in both macro and micro economics
>this function always increases in value! I bet it will stop someday!
historical fallacy- try again.
>I recommend Taleb cuz ur using statistics to cope with society
I'm not coping with anything- the classic Marxist tactic of "b-but how alienated do you feel" in the face of overwhelming objective evidence is a laughable one.
Your point of using a textbook of economics from the 19th century as a hard-and-fast assesment of the modern world is about as useful for a PhD in astronomy or physics to use Galileo's works as their primary understanding of their discipline.

Also,
>still haven't figured out how to reconcile Kapital with the LTV being trashed by all non-Marxtard (objective) economists for 80 years or the calculation problem a cashless society faces

>>9533731
Where in the book is that?

>>9526063
kek

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>>9525912
Carl is spelled with a C tbqh lads

>>9525927
No, Stirner was btfo'd by Marx a million times over. You should read some of the refutations. It's some good stuff.

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>>9537000

>>9537083
t. Stirner fag

Marx > Stirner

>>9525912
The labor theory of value presupposes, among other things:
>value inherent in labor
>value inherent in material
>the stability of value
>the ordinality of value
>the notion of value itself
None of these premises hold up to even modest scrutiny. Austrian economics are even "spookier," to borrow a meme from the Stirnerites, but Marx's theory is still built on awful foundation.

>>9527037
this

> Time preference
> value is actually subjective
> ignores mutual gain of value through trade,
> today means of production can literally be a laptop & printer making part of his analysis outdated

I didn't read the rest since it was so full of holes, too fuckin long desu. Maybe some Marxists can actually read the rest & defend their smelly cuck bastard of a messiah.

>>9528307
reading club when

>>9531429
But the workers were in control, Bolsheviks were the proletariat party.

>>9528307
Yes
Let's do it faggots

>>9538673
>>9538655
>>9528307
This.

I've literally been refreshing this thread for two days waiting for this guy to come back here and post the Calitak reading group thread with explanations and videos as promised. But it looks like he hasn't come back to the thread. I could start a thread, but I haven't read the book and wouldn't be good explaining it/providing videos.

Come home group-reading poster.

>>9537319
Don't think Marx ever argued for inherent value in labour. He even attack the phrase "Labour is the source of all wealth and all culture".

>>9538666
>the workers were in control
>666 get

What did /lit/ mean by this?

>>9537257

>being this spooked

pathetic

>>9537319

LVT is only talking about economic value, which is not to say that every value is not subjective. The fact that we immediately associate every kind of value to the economic ones LVT talks about goes a long way in showing even the critics of Marxism are irrevocably attached to it (I'm not a fan of Marx myself though).

>>9537687

The only point I recall not being mentioned in this thread yet is

>today means of production can literally be a laptop & printer making part of his analysis outdated

Your laptop and 3D printer are not all there is to engage in production, as you have to communicate data to and from a (most likely corporate owned) database, using a third party framework and such. Even if you're an artist or designer, there are few one-man armies around, most of these folks still resort to huge databases of template data they can use on their projects, which are again means of production rented away by the bourgeoisie.

The nature of the means of production changed, and the way with which workers have access to them (it is becoming a rent based thing so you can "produce your own work" with templates from corporations or other large groups of people), but the owners are all the same from centuries ago.

I will concede though, that open software and such does alleviate this. But think of how many industries keep pushing paid software as having better maintenance and security, and so on and so on. In spite of the amazing open source community, somehow there still remains people using (and being forced to use by corporations they work for) pre packaged solutions.

>>9537687
>> today means of production can literally be a laptop & printer making part of his analysis outdated

why? it's a form of machinery

>>9528307
SOMEBODY FIND THIS GUY AND GET HIM TO RESPOND

WE NEED THIS READING GROUP

>>9529878
The Manifesto was a polemic intended to incite a specific group of factory workers, it by no means a meaningful source of Marxist theory. The "10 planks" were only a list of short-term demands, not a description of what communism would be like or how to achieve it.

>>9538875
So?

>>9538955
was marx meant to predict the laptop?

>>9526106
If you dismiss legitimate historical precedent as a go-to excuse then there is no discussion to be had with you.

You simply reject the reality and substitute your own. This is standard apologetics for exploitation by imperialists wrapped up into a single convenient cop-out.

>>9539044
Political or foreign opposition is not an excuse for recurrent systemic failure.

By your logic the parliamentary, republican, jacobin, bolivarian, etc should have failed due to monarchist opposition. but they didnt. communism did

>>9539087
*revolutions etc

>>9538917
Just fucking do it yourself anon, it's an idea with or without him

>>9538926
>It's not Communism even though it's literally the inventor of Communist ideology that wrote the book

You're really grasping at straws.

>>9539508
>the inventor of Communist ideology

>>9539551
Pretty much.

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>>9539574
>The theoretical conclusions of the Communists are based on ideas or principles that have been invented, or discovered, by this or that would-be universal reformer.

>>9529926
lol go outside

>>9527037
>You can state there are issues with capitalism without believing there to be a better system to replace it.
You only really need Adam Smith for this, to be a little bit honest.

>>9539895
I was outside when you posted that.

>>9529142
>snakes

Go to bed, Peterson

>>9538875
The barriers to attaining means of production are being lowered to almost meaningless lows by the market and what a means of production actually constitutes seems to me to be blurring to the point of meaninglessness.

Ie. you don't have to actually have enough capital to own a factory in this day and age when you can earn a living in such easy ways as writting a book & printing it yourself. You don't even have to own your own factory now to join the capitalist class, in Australia everyone with a tiny bit of retirement savings is now in a sense a capitalist with capital invested to produce more capital.

The market when free to do so is trying to chip away at the barriers to capital & wealth. If people got out the way it would be truly marvelous.

Another point I have trouble with is his idea that there would be a growing divide between those with capital & the peasant class, whereas history shows that a more free society/economy increases social mobility & allows all people to live better lives, which kind of goes against the idea people have in their heads that a wealth gap necessarily means people are worse off.

>>9538824
> Time preference
> value is actually subjective
> ignores mutual gain of value through trade,
> The only point I recall not being mentioned in this thread

Could you by any chance point me to the others kind Commie? Not sure how subjective values, trade & time preference were discussed in a thread without the words being mentioned. Cheers.

>>9525994

Piketty also candidly admits in an interview that he never read Marx.

>>9525995

>implying error and accuracy aren't themselves dialectical concepts in their mutual dependency and exclusion
>implying price and value are the same thing
>implying that what you take as proof against the tendency of the rate of profit to fall isn't raises in the mass of profit, accompanied with fall in the rate per commodity

stay plebe and economically illiterate

>>9526103
>price = value

>>>9526222
>>9526237

this

Why don't you post what he got right & we can pick it apart for the fallacious bs failed predictions they are? j/k

>>9525912
I can't because I haven't read it

>>9540690
> t. 98% of Commies & 95% of Libertarians.

>>9540696
Libertarians don't draw so much from Marx tbf

>>9537000
Wasnt his argument that Stirners thought was wrong because it wont lead to a proletariat revolution?

>>9540699
True but a few more are inclined to read "the works of the enemy" so to speak or have come from a Marxist background imo.

>>9526077
instead of just saying youre wrong (which you are) im gonna ask you why its so important for you that communism cant work.

>>9528307
im up for it but i have a big back log...fuck...

>>9540721
Honestly I never cared much for politics but I did my undergrad in philosophy and most people can't be arsed to tackle Marx. The ones that did kind of got stuck on his thought and became incapable of thinking outside his framework, The same thing tends to happen with Heidegger outside of political phil.

i think it was Popper that said that the sign that marxism is more a doctrine than a philosophy is that absolutely everything can be explained through his theory. In my experience that seems to be true.

>>9540754
See this fascinates me because it's so noticeable behind peoples opinionated facades that not many people have read proper analyses of famous writers/writtings, let alone read them themselves.

Kind of just reinforces how ridiculous politics is in general.

>>9540726
Because I hate poor people and think they should die in gutters (which I should not pay for).

>>9540732
The guy who suggested it hasn't been back yet. So I wouldn't get your hopes up

>>9540810
That's what drew me away from politics aswell. Outside of actual philosophical discussion politics always seem to end up at a stalemate between two different value systems. It's just as pointless as discussing religion.

>>9540599

The post-crisis trend of wealth redistribution has been largely undone in the USA (http://inequality.org/wealth-inequality/), and the growing divide also occurs in privilege of access to goods and information nowadays. A wealth gap might leave you off pretty well anyways, but consider a wealth gap so enormous that you can have people taking pain medicine for cancer and waiting for their death in a hospital while someone is at home being cured of the exact same strain of the disease. I know this is a cheap example though, but even if it's not exactly as he described it, the divide still increases and it increases precisely driven by the market.

Regardless if everyone becomes capitalists in the sense of Marx, all the higher castes have to do to remain the higher castes is to raise their bar even higher. A wealth gap does mean people are worse off, but you don't have to think in a smelly peasant/fat corporativist sense; all of us here are surely worse off than a billionaire, and whether or not we still feel good about our lives is irrelevant, because his wealth does not come from the same source ours do: he is most likely a rent-seeking leech. And even if you don't personally care about these people existing, they are precisely the ones putting up barriers against your truly marvelous market ideal.

Finally, about the point of means of production being universal, see >>9538824 . You underestimate just how tied up and centralized production still is, or more generally, grossly underestimating just how much rent arises from pushing a free market.

>>9540826
Reminds me of these https://youarenotsosmart.com/ podcasts, how Liberals & Conservatives with different values just talk passed each other how impossible it is to change their minds with "facts & evidence" just reinforcing their starting bias.

What's to be done when even University goers that love reading can't be assed reading their own "sides" works let alone being capable of proper discussion? Where do you even find "actual philosophical discussion"?

>>9540754

Popper claims only that Marx was forced to introduce ad hoc hypotheses after his initial (and scientific, according to Popper himself) theories failed to describe the scenarios they were intended for. He then proceeds to claim these theories are non-scientific because they can fit any situation and never be falsified, instead only adapted to describe literally anything. He says the exact same of psychoanalysis and it's supposed ability to identify long term actions and patterns in the human psyche.

Popper does not claim however that non-empirical claims to knowledge should never be given any thought, as that would be dwelling back to the naive positivist trap of empirical justification being the only claim to knowledge (a trap most scientists fall right into nowadays).

>>9540837
> the divide still increases and it increases precisely driven by the market.
Is it not possible that the divide increases due to an increase in forceful distortions of the market, ie. corporate lobbying, politicians granting special privellages which not only increase the gap but actually make people worse off & add negatives effects of having a gap vs these natural rising/falling gaps that add positive effects like quicker access to new tech, social mobility etc?

> all the higher castes have to do to remain the higher castes is to raise their bar even higher.
Except the bar is meaningless is if it becomes easier to fall/climb, shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in 3 generations social mobility in a market can be a beautiful thing. It's beautiful to see wealthy people absolutely waste all of their wealth essentially redistributing it naturally & to also see others climb to whatever heights they can push themselves to.

> A wealth gap does mean people are worse off, ....... all of us here are surely worse off than a billionaire
Doesn't work that way at all, if your standard of living is improving then you aren't worse off just because someone else' has improved more. Worse off means worse off, envy is not worse off unless it actually has a tangible effect from their use of wealth/standard of living to negatively impact you.

> he is most likely a rent-seeking leech
Apparently. What do you think of this idea that history & classes should be viewed not in terms of haves/have nots but those that produce legitimately (working class & business class) vs those that merely leech resources through violence/coercion/force?

> they are precisely the ones putting up barriers against your truly marvelous market ideal.
So shouldn't the working class, the masses, the proletariat, the champions of the people be arguing against these barriers in a system where merely having more people voting your way = gaining the levers of power? Really have to ask some hard questions when these few are able to convince the many to go along with putting barriers up to their own freedom & prosperity.

How did the Marxists ITT actually became Marxists?

There seems to be running trends I saw in some reddit threads on the same question.

notice how op asked a simple question and no one was able to provide an answer.

>>9540928
Plenty of answers did you read the thread.

>>9540931
I should have clarified: no correct/reasonable answers

>>9540913

In view of your first and fourth addressings, I actually suppose I think more like you're describing than I first imagined (not being ironic, English isn't my first language either if I'm coming out weird).

The second and third points end up falling into my criticism of wealth concentration being taken forward by rent. Worse off may not mean worse off to me personally, but what if it does mean so to [actually] working and business classes from developing regions that would (sans the rent seeking leecher) be receiving that money? Someone's rent money sometimes just transfers to another rentier. But I'll concede that (and dropping my last point with it perhaps) it's not a matter of textbook class struggle, i.e, I don't want to shut down Tesla or anything like that.

>>9540939
That's subjective.

Hell a lot of these answers were accepted by Marxists who have since tweaked their theories to work around the criticisms so it's obviously a flawed book, maybe less so than the Manifesto but still flawed nonetheless.

>>9540947
>That's subjective.
It isn't. Learn the definitions of words before you use them. I will no longer respond to your posts.

>>9540945
Fair enough I see where you're coming from.

> The second and third points end up falling into my criticism of wealth concentration being taken forward by rent. Worse off may not mean worse off to me personally, but what if it does mean so to [actually] working and business classes from developing regions that would (sans the rent seeking leecher) be receiving that money?

I think I see what you're saying here. Would a basic interpretation be the West extracting from Africa etc? That what you're saying is the gap concentrating for example in a Westerners hands, the other westerners may not be worse off but the African for example could have really used the "rent" staying with them than going to the Western rent seeker?

>>9540951
You interpretation or conclusion of what is correct/reasonable is subjective. Plenty of people accept these arguments in the thread as either reasonable or correct. That's the point of argumentation Pablo.

>>9528307
I summon this Anon to reemerge and start the group thread.

>>9539508
>Marx wrote this short polemic so anything written in it is an accurate description of his entire ideology
Are you fucking dense? Marx wrote a shit ton more than just the Manifesto and Capital. It was also stated by Marx and Engels in the Manifesto's 1872 preface that it had already become outdated in the 24 years since its original publication.

>>9540928
Exactly, no one has outlined a clear refutation of what OP asked

>>9540918

I was persuaded by Jameson's argument in The Political Unconscious that Marxism, insofar as it both accommodates and historicizes other literary theories, provides the most semantic content to interpretation.

>>9539508

>Marx invented Communism when the Communist party commissioned him to write their Manifesto in 1848

>>9525912
This thread is now about the podcast Cum Town, everyone post your favorite riff, bit, ramble, ancedote, or whatever

>>9541488
Communism wasn't invented it was discovered

>>9525937
I don't even get this meme. That's literally, no memeing, not communism. Communism REQUIRES the uprising of the proletariat to seize the means of production. Waiting on technological automation to just remove the basic need for valuation of products is not Communism, it's just entropic Capitalism. If you had to call it anything, it'd be post-scarcity socialism.

>>9526149
>Communism: a system that is not built for greed, lust for power and disdain for perceived lessers.
>Capitalism: a system that rewards greed, lust for power, disdain for perceived lessers.

Mmmm

>>9525994
Piketty literally admitted he'd never read Capital

Marx drastically underestimates the impact of social distinctions predicated upon wealth, especially inherited wealth.

Communism doesn't work

>>9540854
>Reminds me of these https://youarenotsosmart.com/ podcasts, how Liberals & Conservatives with different values just talk passed each other how impossible it is to change their minds with "facts & evidence" just reinforcing their starting bias.

If it's so impossible why do so many people switch from Liberal to Conservative and from Conservative to Liberal?

>>9541815
Because debates aren't the only opportunities to change your mind.

>>9540951
lol at this butthurt dude

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>>9526039
>Chavez

Well that worked out great for venezuela, didn't it?

>>9525912
Calculation problem.
Recursive definition of price of labour power.
Failure to deal with time series.
Puerile history of capitalism in first four chapters.

p.s.: I am a Marxist.

>>9542705
USA's fault.

>>9542705
Objectively speaking it did, even with US interference (sorry sweetums, but it's true) Venezuela under Chavez has a much higher value of life than it did at any point before hand. But that's talking about the whole spectrum of society, not the ruling class. Even after Chavez and with private companies intentionally sabotaging the markets by selling subsidized goods in foreign black market, the comparison is stark. You wouldn't know this but under food and commodity shortages happened pre-Chavez, part of the actual negligence of the ruling class's government. No news stories about it in American papers. Interesting. Though I'd argue that not seizing the offending companies after all this and either trying to get at them legally or hoping they'll suddenly have a heart is itself incompetent. It necessarily leads to the current wave of violence organized by the opposition's mercenaries, which is curiously un(der)reported in international news media (pro-tip: not a coincidence).

PSUV made three mistakes, common to Left organizations that seize governments: 1) focusing on a single commodity for production and trade (oil), not diversifying and making a fully self-sustaining economy. This is highly overstated though: re shortages, this is a problem in cities, and the success of land-reform and localization has led to a less disastrous experience than previous times; 2) not creating the people's army; 34) legalism. The last two are tempting for international PR/"being the bigger man," "setting an example" but what's the point when the enemy owns the world media and, as has been shown, is willing to openly lie to turn its useful idiots against your cause?

>>9540918
The Great Recession got me curious about how economics works. One thing led to another.

>>9542757
As a Marxist what do you see as being the disconnect from todays capitalism to the capitalism that Marx analyzed if any at all?

>>9541815
No one ends a debate saying "I now agree with you and have changed to X", at best you can plant the seeds for them to come to the conclusion in their own time, it's because attacking someone's belief produces a survival response, it's interesting stuff but persuasion & sales also make people believe they already agree with something.

If you want to convince people politically you have to non-threateningly plant seeds or learn sales & persuasion. People change their minds in the privacy of their own thoughts first, it's the same thing when arguing with a spouse.

>>9526900

why do the word egalitarian reminds of a kind of lizard?

>>9541808
Wow. I guess I never really thought about it like that before. Thanks

>>9526039
>tito
>reagan administration
wut

Human nature

/thread

>>9545654
LMAO XD

>>9525935
Real free-market capitalism has never been tried ;)

>>9526063
kek

>>9526900
I too make up nicknames for woman I will never sleep with as a way to imagine I am closer to them

>>9528307
>actually trying to get people reading on /lit/

this is 2017 what the fuck is wrong with you? take your disco and leave

>>9529704
I'm with you, based bourgeoisie anon

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>>9545654

>>9529257
bad, pretty much gobbledygook, i don't think he gets like it is just his opinion and that people are different

>>9545654
Pinker please go.

>>9543003

That quality of life was based entirely on the petrodollar friendo, it was never going to last, and anybody can builld a high quality of life if they have some of the worlds largest oil reserves.

>>9541621
>entropic capitalism

Kill yourself

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>>9525949
>he thinks the sexual free market favors him

Where the FUCK is my READING GROUP THREAD. It's been 5 days now!

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>>9525912
socialist calculation problem kys commie

>>9546520
so how do the venuzuelan workers control the means of production?

>>9546516
this