Has /lit/ tried the Quran? You'd agree that the prose is

Incoming shitstorm of 53 /pol/tards, 65 cultural marxists, 321 posts and 0 opinions changed in 3...2...1...

>>9329769

prose aesthetic is not the point of sacred texts

>>9329769
I doubt that anyone on this board can read Arabic. So, no.

>>9329807
nice meme

>>9329769
it's impossible for prose in English to be better than the KJV

I get caught up reading the annotations so I never get very fair. Frankly the history of how the text was interpreted is way more interesting than the text itself.

Of course if I read it in Arabic maybe I would reach higher levels of understanding and the writing would be more interesting.

yeah, some of it is written in nice prose, but overall it couldn't keep my attention

>>9329790
I mean, it's actually a part of Islam that the Qu'ran is so beautifully written, in such a complex form of Arabic, that the people who are supposed to have written it couldn't possibly have done so without divine help, so in this case it is.

it's emtpy in comparison to the bible, like someone wrote a shitty plagiarized version of parts of the old and new testament
genre fiction imo, no offense

>>9329769
Sorry, I don't really like the Dune series

>>9329769
I would like to but I've heard its quite rythmic and hypnotizing. I really don't like feeling like I'm being brainwashed as I read a text. The same reason I dislike reading really any self-help, new age spiritual shit. The feeling of ceding mental sovereignty to some outlet of spiritual wisdom is degrading. So probably not, i'll probably never read it.

>>9329769
Maybe in Arabic.

I can't read Arabic but I can speak it, and the Qur'an is meant to be recited.

I can't read koine Greek but I can read Homeric Greek, so parts of the Bible are accessible to me.

I've read several translations of both: Yusuf Ali is my favourite Qur'an translation, while King James or Douay Rheims is my favourite Bible translation.

The Qur'an contains a far greater variety of literary and rhetoric techniques (some of which are unique, such as iltifaat/grammatical shift) and, though I won't presume to judge or compare the two in terms of substance, I can say the Qur'an is infinitely better written than anything in the Bible.

Are they really comparable? The New Testament was written by barely literate tax collector, a fisherman and a barber.

>>9330282
You're right that the Qur'an is better than the Bible but come on, Pickthall's version is much better than Yusuf Ali's (version).

I read two Spanish translations a few years ago: by Julio Cortés Soroa and by Kamel Mustafa Hallak. Recently I started reading the Hallak's version again. Great book.

i've been meaning to read the torah after recently finding out i have jewish roots, but i have no idea where to start and which translation to get. any suggestions?

>>9329769
It has a spouts of beauty in between a whole load of repetitive dogma, similar to Atlas Shrugged tbqh.
Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind,
The Sovereign of mankind.
The God of mankind,
From the evil of the retreating whisperer -
Who whispers [evil] into the breasts of mankind -
From among the jinn and mankind."

>>9330028
>not training yourself by turns to manifest absolute sovereignty in the face of the most cunning and charismatic dogma
What do you think, /lit/, is he already lost?

>>9329840
lmao

>>9330282
>I can speak Arabic
>the Qur'an is infinitely better written than anything in the Bible
I'm willing to bet this fact and this opinion share a common cause. How were you raised, anon?

Yes of course, I dont think there is any doubt about that. And I'm saying this as someone who loves the Bible.

>>9330956
Not much weirder than the Bible, just with an added theme of beauty in addition to wisdom and what have you.

>>9330778
The new Jewish Publication Society translation is regarded as a good one. You can buy a version with just the Torah, but I'd recommend getting the entire Tanakh, otherwise you're missing out on the Nevi'im (prophets) and Ketuvim (writings).

Alternatively, any Bible contains the Jewish scriptures, the first 5 books are always the 5 torah books. NRSV is a scholarly Bible translation.

Muslims literally dont like when the quaran is translated into other languages because then people find out how retarded it is

>>9331025
Qurans can be translated so non Arabic speakers can read it but translated Qurans are not actually considered Qurans by Muslims. And this makes perfect sense; if the Quran was written by God in Arabic then an English Quran is not God's word. Translations are useful, but they're faulty and lose information.

Agree, I suppose. I was raised Roman Catholic and there are some beautiful passages in the Bible, but I think everyone should read the Quran. Eventually I want to read the Torrah (sp) in original Hebrew.

>>9331025
No, Muslims are fine with Quran translations. But unlike Christians they never regard a translation as scripture. To be an observant Muslim you pretty much have to learn medieval arabic.

Also Muhammad was an illiterate pedophile

>>9331090
[citation needed]

>>9331101
>In Quran thread
>Hasn't read the Quran
???

https://quran.com/29/48

>>9331101
did you know according to Muslims Muhammad rode a flying donkey named lightning to Jerusalem.

And this is why they dont want you reading the quran in english

>>9331260
Read the content at the link provided. No reference to >>9331090 found, no citation given.

>>9329815
>John 11:39
>Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

>stinketh
gets me every time

>>9331090
So your average 4chan poster?

>>9329769
>Quran
>prose
It's poetry you pleb.

>>9331483

Someone was in church last Sunday.
But what church body uses both the RCL and the KJV?

>>9331550
It's /lit/. Most people don't even know how to step out of themselves for a moment, much less the actual meanings of words.

>>9330282
>I can't read koine Greek but I can read Homeric Greek, so parts of the Bible are accessible to me.
So you haven't learned Attic but somehow you read Homeric ?

Nομίζω ὅτι ψεύδεις δή

>>9329840
lmao

>>9329769
Arabic is a very flowery, rather abstract language. I think it makes the Qur'an much more representative of the idea of Allah and heaven. I'm not Muslim, but it's definitely better than most holy texts.

>>9329769
The Quran, the Synoptics, the Epistles, the Ancient Testament, --- nothing even approaches John.

>>9329769
i've read it yes, i'm no white supremacist but fuck it's a retarded text like all abrahamic texts

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>>9331975
>τ. ψεύδ

βαkά ωνί χαν

>>9329769
>Has /lit/ tried the Quran?
Yes
>You'd agree that the prose is much better than the Bible's, right?
Hell no. The book jumps from subject to subject with no consistency or reason. It reads like a drink epileptic trying to recite the Old Testament. In terms of prose, the Bible isn't consistent, but there is absolutely nothing in the Quran that can compare with the Psalms, Song of Solomon, the Gospel of John, or Revelation

>>9332512
>drink epileptic
*drunk epileptic

>>9332512
>>9330282
Now I've heard two opposite tales, and it is word against word until I find out myself. However, it requires me to learn two/three new languages in such a deep fashion that I can analyze and compare them.
The outcome would be a man closer to God, so why can't I sacrifice anything for it? It's not that I value my time; I waste it.

>>9332623
>it requires me to learn two/three new languages
It requires you to buy a Yusuf Ali Quran and a King James Bible you tryhard

>>9332623
Qur'an overall is better written.
It is similar to Dante in terms of how it affected the language.

That said, Islam is shite

If I wanted a waste of paper I'd buy Das Capital

Suprise suprise, not a single original comment. May your butthurt be eternal. Literature board indeed

>>9331063
>Translations are useful, but they're faulty and lose information.
This is why Islam falls apart. God's holy word isn't universal? It can't transcend the worlds various languages? What makes Arabs such special snowflakes?

>>9332623
>The outcome would be a man closer to God, so why can't I sacrifice anything for it? It'

Its funny but the Koran was written precisely so it would be available and beautiful all mankind - not just classical arabs-

>>9332661
>Qur'an overall is better written.
Which translation and which way did it order the Surahs?

Whilst it lacks some of the dull parts of biblical genealogies its far more repetitive and fragmented in its narrative.

>>9332671

I hear enough about the koran when some tiddly wink blows himself up in a crowd, or runs over pedestrians and it's in the news

>>9332649
>English
Too clumsy a language.

>>9332711
Compared to classical Arabic it is fantastically precise

>>9332718
>precision is important in mythology
You're missing the spectrum, and getting a point in turn. Good job.

>>9332649
>buy a King James Bible
>buy

Not like he can just nick one from a motel or anything eh

I learned all I needed to know about the quran on 911

ive read parts of the qu'ran and the bible...

they're similar in the sense that you know you're reading a religious text.

different in terms of style

qu'ran is more poetic in general i feel, it's poetry is very beautiful.

arabic literature prior to the qu'ran was typically filled with poetry about nature/life in the desert etc. very classical and limited in scope, then it began to evolve over time- and when the qu'ran came it was something completely different.

i've heard that a lot of the feel is lost in translation... to me it sounds a lot like another religious text imo-

the bible has some very interesting stories found within it that are quite enjoyable.

i dunno how to really describe it, im no expert. but you can tell they come from a different place.

>>9330984
>the kjv bible isn't beautiful

lol ok

>>9332972
>it's poetry is very beautiful.
In Arabic? or is there a poetic english translation?

>>9333268
I'd recommend listening to an oral recitation to get a sense of the poetry.

I like this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5BtufJfbjM

>>9333299
So your answer is yes to "only in Arabic"

>>9331063
So when Muhammad marries a nine year old and fucks her in English, what happens in Arabic?

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The Quran is a shit book and Mohammed is Satan. Christianity is the only religion that isn't retarded.

>>9329840

Wow even the Christians aren't that arrogant.

>>9333313
Yusuf Ali translation is probably closest to what you want, it aims for majestic language.

>>9333344
My question was when you were speaking of its beautiful poetry were you making that comment based of the Classical Arabic or an English Translation.

My question was not which is better or which english trasnlations are more poetic

>>9329997
kek have a (you)

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>>9333325
This as long you correctly recognise that Christianity is also a rejection of Talmudic Judaism.

>>9329807
I can read Arabic.

> nobody is posting any passages from the quran

c'mon

>>9330282
I can read Arabic, but I can't speak or understand it. It's rhythm and prose is incomparable.

>>9332649
Arabic is not the same as english. Read it in arabic and it flows like poetry

>>9332512
>>9332607
As it turns out, Muhammad was an epileptic.

>>9332673
In Islam each prophet has a miracle. Splitting the red sea, turning water into wine, etc. For Mohamed, an illiterate, the Quran is itself the miracle.

Maybe if you stopped >reading in translation like a pleb you could actually experience G-d's word for yourself

>Has /lit/ tried the Quran?
Yes.
>You'd agree that the prose is much better than the Bible's, right?
REMEMBER MOSES
REMEMBER MOSES
REMEMBER MOSES
REMEMBER MOSES
REMEMBER MOSES
also what prose?

>>9330501

Pickthall is my second favourite - when he's at his best he surpasses Ali, but I find Ali to be more consistently good.

>>9330974

As a barely practicing Catholic of western European descent.

>>9331975

I did a course in Homeric Greek. διπλοῦν ὁρῶσιν οἱ μαθόντες γράμματα

>>9332512

You clearly don't understand it at all - it's objectively one of the greatest and most influential pieces of literature ever written. How many times did you read it? How many translations? It's no more possible to understand the Qur'an without multiple readings and the necessary prerequisite knowledge than it is to understand Aristotle's metaphysics without those two things.

>>9333315
kek

>>9331063
>>9333315

Anyone with more than a passing interest in literature knows that translations are only an imitation of the original, and that poetry is ruined by translation.

>>9333248

The Bible is very plainly written for the most part.

Augustine wrote in his 'Confessions' about how difficult it was for him to let go of the pagan classics (Virgil specifically) he learned at school because of how they are far better written than anything in the Bible.

>>9334810
>>9331975

Also your use of ' δή ' was presumptive desu. Accuse me of lying if you must, but it's not a fact until you prove it.

ἡ λόγος οὐδὲν ποιεῖ ἅλματα

>>9329769
>implying anyone here can read both Arabic and all the biblical languages
>implying the Bible has a consistent prose style

>>9329840
lmao

>>9333413
The poetry is in the original arabic of course, you fuckwit.

>>9329807
I can. It certainly sounds beautiful. Very hard to translate that beauty though.

>>9334856
Yeah, to a heathen like him, I'm not surprised. All that glitters is not gold

>>9331550
Some parts are poetic, but there are long sections of prose as well.

It doesn't matter how good the prose is since the book is just a manual for jihad and Islamic imperialism.

Continuing to judge the book on aesthetic grounds while being blind to its intolerant and hateful nature is immoral and aids terrorists. The Quran is cited and invoked when terrorists attack. That is more than enough to spurn any sort of positive or playful discussion regarding the Quran.

>>9334810
>I did a course in Homeric Greek. διπλοῦν ὁρῶσιν οἱ μαθόντες γράμματα

Τυγχάνω ταῦτα μεμαθηkὼς ὥστ' οὐδενα δ'ἔλαθες οὒ παιδευθείς.

>>9334884
You're responding with quotes. You took the quote Ἡ φύσις οὐδὲν ποιεῖ ἅλματα and replaced "physis" with "logos". You should know that "logos" is masculine, even in Homeric Greek.

Quran recitation is pretty /lit/, like Islam or not.

I unironically respect it and think Plato would have loved this. I think most people like Islam and convert not because of the substance but because of the culture/rituals. A white guy is more likely to convert from hearing to the call to prayer than reading the Quran and saying "wow, that makes sense."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_Is1todNXw

>>9334980
the construction of your sentence is needlessly complex my goy

>>9334234
> hurka durka kill the apostates
> faggots and jews are evil
> unbelievers are pigs/dogs
> women are whores hurka durka

>>9329769
>quran
>better than shit
wow that was really hard
next you'll say harry potter has a better prose

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>>9334934

>I don't speak Greek or Latin, nor have I studied grammar, rhetoric, logic and biblical exegesis, but I know better than Saint Augustine

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>>9335019

That should be obvious.

I claimed to read Homeric Greek, not to write it fluently.

>>9329769
>Throat speaking
Yeah no thanks.

>>9335062
Explain further

>>9331063
>Translations are useful, but they're faulty and lose information.

there is nothing that can be said in one language that cannot be said in another equally well developed language. nothing is uniquely untranslateable. even if one word cannot be directly transposed for a word in another language, the meaning can be expressed in other ways

i sometimes see articles about words that have no equivalent or cannot be translated into another language. one example that is frequently trotted out is the danish word "hygge". and yet somehow last time i went to sainsburys i saw four fucking books about it so clearly some people are having a go

>>9335647
Augustine might know a shitload about architecture but we're talking about shipwrighting.

>>9334810
>It's no more possible to understand the Qur'an without multiple readings...

wow you'd think god would do us a favour and make things unambiguous easy to understand
it's almost like it was thought up some backwards goat herder or something

>>9335754

You don't have any idea of what you're talking about. You're talking out of your ass

http://www.asymptotejournal.com/criticism/david-stromberg-translation-the-problem-of-literature-and-art/

>>9329840
lel

>>9335817
no u r

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>>9335776

That's true for any serious piece of literature though. To really understand a text you need to read it multiple times

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Read_a_Book

What are you even doing here when you don't know how to read a book?

>>9335723
What? About how Plato hated people not memorizing things, how the Greeks would recite Homer in public?

Or how Islam is mostly just simplified Judaism and doesn't offer anything new (by its own admission) other than WE WUZ ABRAHAM, and people convert because they think Islamic culture is cozy?

>>9335762

We're talking about the quality of the prose in the Bible, which is mediocre for the most part.

I never disputed the substance of it's content, which is an entirely different matter.

>>9332673

This is a basic fact of literature, not a specific claim of Islam. Homer's Iliad isn't the same in English as it is in Greek. The poetic quality is lost. The real meaning of Greek terms like τιμή, λόγος, etc. is lost in English because they had meanings other than literal translation that were specific to Greek culture and philosophy at the time they were written.

https://www.thoughtco.com/epic-terms-learned-from-homeric-epic-119092

>>9335914
But I'm talking about the prose you stupid faggot. The content WOULD be closer to Augustine's expertise.

The Bible has among the best prose of any work ever. Although I've only read KJV and parts of NRSV, which Augustine did not, but both of those are largely accurate.
>inb4 "translation!"
Yeah I'm sure a translation gave it better prose.

>>9335924
Well, Shakespeare did write the KJV.

>>9335670
>studied homeric greek
>doesn't know "logos" is masculine
>responds in quotes taken from wikipedia with words changed in them to look like he wrote greek
Let us sum it up

>claims to be able to read "some parts of the Bible"
>doesn't know logos is masculine
nope nope nope

>>9335951
I think you mean...the KJV wrote Shakespeare...

The book of Job and Ecclesiastes are better than anything in the Quran.

Yet I would throw both the Quran and the Bible in the fire if it were to save the complete works of Shakespeare. A mind for poetry like the one of Shakespeare is worth much more than the “cultural value” of those religious texts.

As for wisdom, the main Buddhist sutras are completely superior to anything in Bible/Quran.

>>9335952
tbf as someone who can read French but not write it I'd make a bunch of shitter mistakes too.

>>9335924

>The content WOULD be closer to Augustine's expertise.

Except Augustine studied classical prose and was "thoroughly versed" in it.

It was his area of expertise.


https://books.google.ie/books?id=EtOs1OMaEB0C&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=the+bible+prose+augustine&source=bl&ots=YJI6JvVp-f&sig=dFXFKuGW_x6voNcyVRyPAAMR08g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjB973IyYvTAhVpJ8AKHTWKANYQ6AEIFDAD#v=onepage&q=the%20bible%20prose%20augustine&f=false

Augustine read multiple translations of the Bible, including the original, and you've read only one.

The Bible has simplistic and utilitarian prose, get over it.

>>9335968
Augustine is not known for his literary criticism.
>The Bible has simplistic and utilitarian prose
Exactly.

>>9335952

I knew enough to read >>9331975
>>9334884

Making a single mistake while lazily altering quote in Greek does not mean I can't read it.

>>9335958
Have fun with your idols.

>>9335984
>>9335963
>>9335670
Not that guy but you are full of shit. It's easy to google translate. We get it.

>>9335989

I will, thanks ;)

>>9335984
You could have easily translated this with any online dictionary since every word had an English equivalent, but you couldn't with a simple construction like >>9334980 which cannot be translated with word-for-word.

Btw it meant

"It so happens that I have learned them [ta grammata], so that you are fooling no one on the fact that you weren't taught [them]."

>>9336012
I assure you, I really can read French but not write it very well.

J'ecris(?) tres mal mais je me peux lire Montaigne assez facile (franchement c'est probable plus facile pour les étudiants que les Francais, considerant [yeah I'm guessing here] son age).

ta-da

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>>9335847
the difference is that holy scriptures are supposed to be the infallible word of god
with the alleged exception of the bible, all the things on the list in that article are stuff that people made up
the fact that the bible/quran/bhagavad gita etc are open to so much interpretation and counter-interpretation are proof that god, if it exists, is a sick twisted fucker

pic unrelated

It has some fairly poetic passages but no stories with the literary merit of say Exodus or Job.

Old testament is still the best religious book, from a purely literature point of view.

>>9336041
No you can't easily read Montaigne if your French is of such a level that you don't know the difference between an adjective and an adverb.

I also speak French and I have my edition of Montaigne in his original text, perhaps you would like to translate it for us ?


"Cela seul, d'estre toujours enfermé dans une chambre, me sembloit insupportable; je fus incontinent dressé à y estre une semaine, et une mois, plein d'émotion, d'alteration et de foiblesse; et ay trouvé que, lors de ma santé, je plaignois les malades beaucoup plus que je ne me trouve à plaindre moymesme quand j'en suis, et que la force de mon apprehention encherissoit près de moitié l'essence et vérité de la chose. J'espere qu'il m'en adviendra de mesme de la mort, et qu'elle ne vaut pas la peine que je prens à tant d'apprest que je dresse et tant de secours que j'appelle et assemble pour en soustenir l'effort; mais, à toutes adventures, nous ne pouvons nous donner trop d'avantage."

I gave you two relatively easy sentences.

>>9336030

I had no problem reading that sentence.

I'll admit my vocabulary is pretty much limited to what's covered in 'A reading course in Homeric Greek' by Schoder and Horrigan. Like I said, I can only read parts of the Bible and am reliant on having read multiple translations in English.

>>9336077
>I had no problem reading that sentence.
Your previous post seemed to imply that you only understood my first one ; now that its translation is given, of course, you wouldn't have had any problem reading it...

>>9336041

Greek reader under attack here

We were taught Frog in school but I haven't retained any of it. Did you learn Frog on your own initiative?

>>9336093

Give me a sentence to translate senpai

>>9336072
>No you can't easily read Montaigne if your French is of such a level that you don't know the difference between an adjective and an adverb.
You've obviously learnt one language, so you must know that when reading you can just work shit out as you go along, but when writing you need to actually know your shit.

I'll do a bit of your quote because I'm lazy:
>This alone, of being always closed in a room, seemed to me unsupportable; I was incontinently [okay I don't get that] trained for a week, and a month, full of emotion, alteration and weakness; and I found that, during my health, I pity the ill much more than I found myself pitying myself when I was [like that]
Yeah you'd smoothen it out and translate the idiom if you were writing for someone else but that's not an honest rendition of what it's like when I'm reading.

>>9336101
Προσηνέχθης ἐμοὶ ὡς αἰσχρος ἀνήρ τις · kαὶ τοίνυν περὶ πλείονος δοkεῖν ποιεῖ τοῦ ἀληθῶς εἶναι.

>>9336041
>je me peux lire Montaigne assez facile

stop. we get it. youre full of shit.

>>9336169
Alright, you pass the test my good goy ; your mistakes are not at all those of google translation.

>>9336172
I made a mistake on the accent on aischros which should be αἰσχρὸς

>>9329840
9/11 bait my goatshagging friend

>>9336101
I can even give you the 1st person imperfect forms of the verbs used in >>9336172 if you wish so.

>>9329769
I dropped it after the first 100 pages.The Oxford University edition may or may not be a worse translation than others, but I found it way too dry and prescriptive. And repetitive. It's really fucking repetitive.

It's supposedly beautiful in arabic. From my experience, it's not even worth reading in english

How much time would it take to learn how to read the Quran in arabic? Is arabic a hard language? And is the quranic arabic even harder?

>>9336172

My poor translation isn't literal but I think the gist is

'You made me out to be the bad guy but really it's you who acts like one'

How far off am I?

>>9336286
Farther than you might think.

>>9331644
We don't use the KJV during the service but I was talking to the pastor afterwords about the passage and he mentioned it.

>>9336246
reading it wouldnt take too long, it's only 600 or so pages in arabic. reciting the quran, as is traditionally done, would take longer because there's rules for reciting you have to follow. A general estimate would be around 24 hours to recite the whole quran with the recitation rule

Arabic isnt a hard language per se, it's only the grammar that's notoriously hard. but it's easy if you use classical textbooks to do it like a grammar text book called "al-ajrumiyyah"

The quranic arabic is harder in the sense that it has a larger vocabulary and complex construction but for a native speaker it's generally easy to get a basic understanding of what is being said.

>>9336318

Stop being such a tease senpai

gib translation and humliate me

>>9336323
How hard is the grammar in comparison to Russian or Chinese?

>>9336338
i dont really know chinese or russian so i cant really tell you. the main difficulty in the grammar is that the vowels in arabic words change depending on their placement in the sentence and the context of what is being said. there are four different vowel schemes of how these can be implemented and each scheme has at least 5 or 6 sub-schemes. each sub-scheme relates to adding letters or vowels in accordance with the context of the word in the sentence which is why Arabic grammar is considered difficult.

>>9336325
>Προσηνέχθης ἐμοὶ ὡς αἰσχρος ἀνήρ τις ·
Προσηνέχθης = 2nd pers. pass. aor. of προσφέρω.
Followed by dative it means: "to behave in such a way [with someone]"

The rest of the clause can easily be translated online.

>kαὶ τοίνυν περὶ πλείονος δοkεῖν ποιεῖ τοῦ ἀληθῶς εἶναι.
The second clause is an extremely easy and common construction which is absolutely immune to word-for-word translation :

>περὶ πλείονος δοkεῖν ποιεῖ τοῦ ἀληθῶς εἶναι

becomes

>περὶ πλείονος [x] ποιεῖ τοῦ [y]
This is a genitive of value :To deem X more worthy than Y.

the x and the y can easily be translated online.

The only words I recognized were 'ἐμοὶ ὡς αἰσχρος ἀνήρ' and 'τοῦ ἀληθῶς εἶναι'

>>9336395
That's good, because they're the words I haven't translated.

>>9333326
You must be new to /lit/.

>>9335924
>The Bible has among the best prose of any work ever
Read more.

>>9336471
*tips fedora*

>>9336511

kys

>>9336246
speaking arabic isnt really that hard imo, writing and learning proper grammar and all of the rules that entails as in any language is a bitch though.

as in, easy to learn but hard to master. i can read and write in arabic but would not dare write a college level essay in arabic...

im a decent intermediate speaker- my speaking is much stronger than my grammar etc.

jmo

>>9335955
>>9335924
Fuck y'all, I genuinely believed he helped with the translation for a while.

>>9329840
That's funny, because it wasn't written by the divine prophet mohammed, but by a group of scribes under Zayd ibn Thabit. The stories came from Mohammed, the prose from Zayd. They started shortly after his death and it was finished 20 years later, so you could say some not-so-divine human labor went into creating the book. Additional small changes to the dialect used in the text were made to create the standard version from the manuscript under the order of the caliph Uthman ibn Affan. All earlier working version than the standard version are thought to have be destroyed.

>>9337182

>That's funny, because it wasn't written by the divine prophet mohammed, but by a group of scribes under Zayd ibn Thabit. The stories came from Mohammed, the prose from Zayd.

That's funny, because it is recorded that the verses of the Qur'an were first publicly recited orally and then memorized by those present before they were written down - meaning that the content was decided and dictated before it was written by Zayd.

>They started shortly after his death and it was finished 20 years later

According to most sources a complete written copy existed before Muhammad died.

>Additional small changes to the dialect used in the text were made to create the standard version from the manuscript under the order of the caliph Uthman ibn Affan. All earlier working version than the standard version are thought to have be destroyed.

Are you aware that Uthman put Zayd in charge of compiling his standardized version?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zayd_ibn_Thabit

>>9337230
Zayd was the scribe of Mohammed during his life time, most written prose released by mohammed during his life time came from Zayd since Mohammed was illiterate. The stories were mostly given orally to Mohammeds followers (of which a good chunk died in war) who memorized them, at least in spirit. Written copies of these oral versions were made, but they were ordered destroyed when the standard version was released to avoid having several contradictory versions of the scripture.

>the content was decided and dictated before it was written by Zayd
Yes, the content. Not the prose.

>According to most sources a complete written copy existed before Muhammad died.
That's horseshit and also unprovable. Several fragments existed, but it is impossible to know if they were complete.

>Are you aware Uthman put Zayd
Yes, still the used dialect in the book was changed. That entails changes of the prose. So your divine recitation to the mortals idea is pretty hilarious.

>>9337278

>Yes, the content. Not the prose

It was written down exactly as it was recited, which is why it was claimed to be a miracle. There were at least 10 people who could recite it in it's entirety before a written copy was fully compiled:

Shaykh Abdul Hayy Qattani writes:

During the time of the Holy Prophet (S) ten persons knew the whole Quran by heart: Ali, Uthman, Ubayy ibn Kaab, Maaz ibn Jabal. Abul Darda, Zaid ibn Thabit, Abu Zaid Ansari, Tamim Dari, Ubadah ibn Thabit and Abu Ayyub.

>That's horseshit

Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) says:

The Messenger of Allah (S) said to Imam Ali (a.s.): "O Ali, the Quran is placed behind my bed and it is written on a scroll, silk and papers. So take it and do not lose it like the Jews who allowed the Taurat to be lost."

>Yes, still the used dialect in the book was changed.

No it wasn't, diacritics were added.

>>9337342

Correction: It was claimed to be a miracle because it was first recited, and a text so well written couldn't be spontaneously thought up on the spot.

The proof is in the fact that certain verses were direct spontaneous verbal responses to people or circumstances.

>>9333325
>this is what christfags actually believe

>>9337342
Some of his followers knew a version of the quran. How complete these versions were or close it was to the later prose of the standard version is unknown.

The fact that it took 20 years to compile the first manuscript should give you some food for thought. If a complete written or memorized version would have existed, then it wouldn't have taken 20 years and a group of many scribes to compile.

>During the time of the Holy Prophet (S) ten persons knew the whole Quran by heart: Ali, Uthman, Ubayy ibn Kaab, Maaz ibn Jabal. Abul Darda, Zaid ibn Thabit, Abu Zaid Ansari, Tamim Dari, Ubadah ibn Thabit and Abu Ayyub.
The wikipedia article you have linked before contradicts this statement:
>[Zayd] was assigned the role of authenticating and collecting the oral and textual Quranic revelation into a single bounded volume.
he was given the task of collecting the Quranic verses from all over the Muslim communities.
>Zayd finally accepted the task and, according to him, started locating the Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men. When Zayd had completed his task, he left the prepared sheets with Abu Bakr.

>Shaykh Abdul Hayy Qattani
Who is that?

>Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.)
Oh yes, a guy who reigned a 100 years later is a great source of first hand knowledge.

>>9337348
>and a text so well written couldn't be spontaneously thought up on the spot.

The most simple solution to this conundrum would be that it wasn't thought up on the spot.

>>9337448

You're either ignoring what I'm saying or incapable of understanding.

>The wikipedia article you have linked before contradicts this statement:

Read what I said: " There were at least 10 people who could recite it in it's entirety before a written copy was fully compiled"
"Before a written copy was compiled"

>Oh yes, a guy who reigned a 100 years later is a great source of first hand knowledge.

Reputed scholars and historians who quote primary sources (hadith in this case) are generally good sources. Nice excuse to dismiss the evidence that contradicted your narrative.

>The most simple solution to this conundrum would be that it wasn't thought up on the spot.

Except that "The proof is in the fact that certain verses were direct spontaneous verbal responses to people or circumstances." We know this because the immediate reaction of the people addressed in some of these verses is recorded in the Hadith.

>>9337593
>Read what I said: " There were at least 10 people who could recite it in it's entirety before a written copy was fully compiled"
Yes and listed as one of the 10 people is Zayd himself, also Uthman. If these people would have known the full text by heart, then Zayd wouldn't have had to travel around the muslim world to collect the quran from paper scraps.

>Reputed scholars and historians who quote primary sources (hadith in this case) are generally good sources. Nice excuse to dismiss the evidence that contradicted your narrative.
The haddith was compiled a hundred years later than the quran based on oral traditions and fragments. Also your quote didn't give any reference, just a statement.

And I still want to know who Shaykh Abdul Hayy Qattani is

>>9331260
ive read it, I dont remember most of it but I do remember my conclusions on it being evil just like the bible.