> finish The Iliad > ends abruptly with no mention of the

>>9329135
you fucking clown

>>9329137

Rude.

>>9329135
are you legally retarded

The Iliad and The Odyssey were originally 2 parts of a 10 part series.
The other 8 parts have been lost to the sands of time.

>>9329158
>The Iliad and The Odyssey were originally 2 parts of a 10 part series.
no

>>9329164
that's right, it was 12 parts

>>9329158
In sort of the same way that Tora! Tora! Tora! And Schindler's List are part of a series of movies.

>>9329172
Of course it was a series.
It was most likely intended to be read in order.

It would be like if The Two Towers survived and the other 2 parts of The Lord of the Rings never existed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Cycle

The eternal #1 in the list of lost books I want found:The full Greek Epic Cycle of Troy, much of which is lost, except in fragments and later summaries. The eight works together told the entire history of the Trojan War in epic verse.

1. Cypria (11 books by Stasinus): the events leading up to the Trojan War and the first nine years of the conflict, especially the Judgement of Paris.(fifty lines remain of the original text)

2. Iliad (24 books by Homer): Achilles' rage against first king Agamemnon and then the Trojan prince Hector, ending with Achilles killing Hector in revenge for the death of Patroclus and Priam coming to Achilles to ransom Hector's body. (full manuscripts remain of the original text)

3. Aethiopis 5 books by Arctinus): the arrival of the Trojan allies, Penthesileia the Amazon and Memnon; their deaths at Achilles' hands in revenge for the death of Antilochus; Achilles' own death. (only five lines remain of the original text)

4. Ilias Mikra ("Little Iliad" 4 books by Lesches): events after Achilles' death, including the building of the Trojan Horse and the Awarding of the Arms to Odysseus. (nearly thirty lines remain of the original text)

5. Iliou persis ("Sack of Troy" 2 books by Arctinus): the destruction of Troy by the Greeks. (only ten lines remain of the original text)

6. Nostoi ("returns" 5 books by Agias or Eumelus): the return home of the Greek force and the events contingent upon their arrival, concluding with the returns of Agamemnon and Menelaus. (five and a half lines remain of the original text)

7. Odyssey (24 books by Homer): the end of Odysseus' voyage home and his vengeance on his wife Penelope's suitors, who have devoured his property in his absence.(full manuscripts remain of the original text)

8. Telegony (2 books by Eugammon): Odysseus' voyage to Thesprotia and return to Ithaca, and death at the hands of an illegitimate son Telegonus. (only two lines remain of the original text)

Maybe someday... from Oxyrhynchus or another treasure-trove.

>>9329217
I'd be more excited if they found Sophocles' 40 or so lost plays to be honest.

The Oedipus Cycle is his masterpiece but that could have been dogshit compared to his other plays for all we know.

>>9329191
Jesus Christ.

You fucking retard, that would be like saying Corneille's Cinna is the sequel to Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra.

They're different works by different authors on similar subjects, not a fucking series.

>>9329239
If it was a collaborative effort where a group of authors agreed to write a combined effort on the history of the Trojan War in verse, then yes it is a series and meant to be read as such.

You are autistic and wrong.

>>9329226
No. What we have left of Sophocles is a scholarly collection.
A best-of, if you will. That's why it's seven plays.
By the way it would be 90+ lost plays.

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>>9329246
>90+ lost plays

>>9329246
Why should we trust contemporary scholars though?

If the same happened with Shakespeare they probably would have chosen trash like As You Like It or All's Well That Ends Well and shit like that to be remembered.

>>9329250
This

Those retarded plebs thought Lear was bad because muh no happy ending

>>9329135
That part is in the Aeneid

>>9329245
>If it was a collaborative effort
no.

>where a group of authors agreed to write a combined effort
lol no

You have no idea what you're talking about.

>>9329135
I was more irritated by the constant divine intervention t.b.h. Not exactly a satisfying plot resolution for the modern reader.

>>9329245
>If
Yes, if.
It's not a series.

>>9329250
We have fragments of his other plays ; it seems that we really have the best.

For example, Euripides' works survive both in a scholarly collection and a volume of his works in alphabetical order ; we can clearly see that the works from his scholarly collection are far superior.

The collection isn't made by contemporary scholars, but by centuries of alexandrinian philologists who had nothing better to do, the same who gave us our edition of Homer.

>>9329286
I'd rather decide myself which plays are good and which aren't instead of being told "We're Greek. Just trust us."

>>9329164
This. It's highly unlikely that the epic cycle was ever totally finished, or even attempted, let alone by Homer. Probably anything else that did get written wasn't written by Homer and wasn't very good.

>>9329298
But you don't have a choice do you :^)

>>9329325
Ehhhh there will probably be a supercomputer in about 20 years who can analyze Sophocles' writing and just churn out hundreds of plays in his style.

The same will happen with all of your other favorite dead authors as well.

You will just be able to push a button and say
>Give me a play in the style of Aeschylus
and a manuscript will get shit out that flawlessly emulates his style.

>>9329336
>SHAKESPEARE'S NEW PLAY PREMIERE : THE FALL OF TRUMP, STARRING BRUCE WILLIS, JARED LETO AND JOHNNY DEPP
please end it famalam

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>>9329336
That's just the jewish supercomputer and not real Aeschylus though

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>>9329158
But itsnt that was a fucking poem that everybody know for oral tradition?
Like they only know the 2 of it?

>>9329226
Not necessarily. The plays of Sophocles that we do have were preserved because they were good.

>>9329343
You're lying if you wouldn't pay money to see that.

>>9329250
Nigga Aristotle was the first to preserve them as texts

>>9329239
>>9329245
Surely It'd be more like if the whole of noir detective fiction disappeared except The Maltese Falcon and The New York Trilogy. They're two works in the same tradition, intimately connected and far apart at the same time, with the works spanning the spectrum lost.

>>9329359
What's your point?
My point is that contemporary audiences usually don't know genius when they see it.
Sometimes it takes centuries for greatness to be recognized.
There's probably at least a dozen plays where they said
>Well this play doesn't follow the rules of tragedy so it's just bad. Into the trash it goes.

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>>9329336
>mfw humanities majors stray into science

That ain't how AI works, sonny.

>>9329352
The Iliad exhibits clear redactional traits, inner complexity (composition by circular inclusion, as in Plato's Republic), a conciseness of subject quite unlike any oral work (16 days at most), two mentions of writing, one direct and one indirect, and a single personality with its conceptions, ideas and thoughts which are extremely personal and particular : the work is indeed based on an oral tradition as to the general course of events of the myths it describes, but its composition is that of a single person who used writing.

>>9329372
If you told people 20 years ago that everyone would have a smartphone in the future, they would have laughed at you and thought you were crazy.

If you don't think that in the future, supercomputers will be able to create art like literature and music in the style of people like Bach and Shakespeare, then you are objectively wrong.
Once the computing capacity increases, solving these problems will be a breeze for them.

>>9329370
Value is arbitrarily assigned. Your complaint is someone else arbitrarily assigned value, not you. They preserved it, you didn't. Too bad.

>abloo bloo why didn't they save it all for me
>abloo bloo, i'm the boss, not them
Cry more, bitch nigger.

>>9329386
>autistic STEM virgins would :
>have enough understanding of literature and music to produce such an AI
>have the will to do so
>deem it economically viable
>wouldn't use the AI to write genre fiction and similar autistic virgin shit

>>9329359
Aristotle failed to live up to Pl8o and he's a retard for not preserving all of them

>>9329386
There are too sides to it.

There were people who wouldn't have believed we made the technological advances we have. There were people who thought we'd make greater, far more outrageous technological advances.

Maybe the naysayers are the former, maybe you're the latter.

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>>9329386
>If you told people 20 years ago that everyone would have a smartphone in the future, they would have laughed at you and thought you were crazy.

Solid argument

>>9329397
Human involvement will be minimal to nonexistent.
The computer will just scan the author's work, looking for a master algorithm that catalogs all of their idiosyncrasies, word choices, sentence structure, subject matter, etc. and create fully formed works.

In the beginning the works will be bad, but the results will improve.

>>9329412
It's actually a very good argument.

>durr my tiny brain can't comprehend complex technological advancements in the future so that means they won't happen XD

>>9329417
None of this will ever happen because the works of the greatest geniuses of mankind already are infinite in content ; we don't need more.

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>>9329386
>supercomputers will be able to create art like literature and music
Explain to me how creativity can be programmed. I'll wait.

>>9329455

>>9329417

>>9329250
>he actually believes As You Like It and All's Well are bad plays

Kill yourself, you tasteless waste of space.

>>9329462
I know it's cool to roleplay as Armond White, but they truly are pretty bad.
They were like the stuff he wrote to put food on the table.

If you think The Merry Wives of Windsor is good too, then you're just an edgy contrarian.

>>9329460

>>9329372

>>9329481
You are the contrarian here.

https://youtu.be/aofPdMbXzUQ

>>9329135
Trojan Horse is referred to in The Odyssey. Its main source is The Aeneid.

Achilles Heel occurs in later Greek and Roman works.

>>9329481
As you like it is objectively one of shakespeare's best plays, though.

I bet you think the tempest is bad too

Should I definitely read The Illiad before the Odyssey? I hear it's not as good, but is it still worth reading?

>>9329248
And that's JUST Sophocles. Less than 10% of the Greek plays remain, it's a travesty.

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homer was a bard drawing from a vast narrative that was molded to suit contemporary (8th century greek) audiences and therefore concerns.

the work of milman parry prove homer was an oral poet drawing on previous traditions. think of homer as drawing from a collective set of stories (epic cycle) in much the same way that fictional universes are plucked from today to create individual simpsons episodes or star wars movies. homer takes his audience's knowledge of this larger narrative for granted.

the iliad plucks from the larger narrative a smaller one about the wrath of achilles, his feud with agamemnon, the death of patroclus, and the burial of hector. we know troy will fall today; an ancient audience even moreso.

it is not necessary to say this. instead, homer uses his selected narrative to talk about the contradiction of the heroic code: that kleos or, undying glory in bardic song, necessitates the death and shame of another. this is the tragedy of the iliad, and part of what makes it so genius. note the iliad does not end with the fall of troy and the glorying of the argives. no: it ends with the funeral laments of three women and the burial of the last capable man in troy. we know what will happen next, so the pathos is intensified.

homer's audience would find it even more intense as andromache will be enslaved to another man, hector's son will be tossed off the walls of troy, priam will be slain on the altar. the pent up rage of the argives is not depicted in the iliad because homer's audience would already know.

The Fall of Troy, by that smyrna queer

>>9330615
Yes you should. I think it's better than the Odyssey.
The Iliad feels much more grand than the Odyssey does. There's Gods running around getting into things, characters have their own problems they're dealing with in addition to the war. Lots of internal struggle from a wide range of characters.
The Odyssey is about one guy. (Gods are mostly silent) He's great, but sometimes it's pretty boring. Despite it covering 10 years, it seems like surprisingly little actually happens. It's mostly telling stories, planning, and waiting on a boat or near a boat,
It's still dope though.

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>>9329336
>>9329343
>implying it hasn't already been done

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MURDLPW

>>9331599
the iliad is the destruction of the oikos, while the odssey is the restoration of the oikos. i agree that the iliad is better and worth reading first, but the odyssey most resembles contemporary narratives.

>>9329282
>my atheist conceptions of storytelling and narrative structure
>my self referencing physicalist secular belief system that restricts my imagination
>ancients not pandering to my deadened, self mortifying, psychotic perception of reality
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE you fucking heathen

>>9329282
pleb

>>9329422
>durr hurr no technology has ever come even vaguely close to replicating the genius of Melville or Rembrandt of Boticelli or Bernini or Joyce or William James or Zen Painting, but my professor who gets grants from the state who subsidizes the tech industry told me that art isn't real and computers will make dope chip tunes in the future
fucking kek

>>9331635
Contemporary narratives are all shit.

tbqh Achilles really came across as a whiny primadonna and I found him to be an annoying character. Is it just my modern sensibilities that colour my view of him, or did people in ancient times see him in a similar way?

I get that honour was seen as a yuge deal in ancient Greece, but Achilles cursing the entire Achaen army just because Agamemnon stole his waifu seemed like a pretty bitch nigga move. He only came out to save the desperate Achaens when the Trojans killed his husbando, and before then seemed pretty content to see his curse played out.

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>>9331701

Maybe the fact that noble Hector gets killed by the bitch nigga Achilles is actually the core tragedy of The Iliad?

>>9331701
It's Agamemnon's fault.

>act like you are the king of everything when you aren't
>too much of a retard to just admit you were wrong and win the war
cunt

Achilles was nice just to stay in his tent and weight for an apology instead of straight up leaving

>>9331761
wait
jej

>>9329386
Trust me computing capacity isn't the problem, the hardware we have surpasses any calculations that the brain can make.

>>9331761

Why didn't Achilles curse Agamemnon instead of the entire Achaen armies then?

Also Aggy did try to reconcile things with Achilles and offered him shitloads of dosh, gifts, an apology, his waifu back, etc. That offer seemed pretty damn fair to me.

>>9331635
>the iliad is the destruction of the oikos
no

>while the odssey is the restoration of the oikos
no

>the odyssey most resembles contemporary narratives.
The Ancients often thought it had been written for women.

>somebody gets killed
>greedy greeks run in from all sides to steal his armour and horses, ignoring the battle around them and even dying in the process

were people back then retarded?

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>tfw you will never listen to some old wise guy at a campfire telling these amazing poetic stories with bravado bringing them to life in front of you

why even live?

>>9332021
I was going to explain, but then I realized you're a fucking retard. Kill yourself.

>>9332021
>greedy greeks
>greeks
you answered your own question anon

>>9332033

at least you have youtube approximations

https://youtu.be/MOvVWiDsPWQ?t=55s

https://youtu.be/qI0mkt6Z3I0

>>9331807
>Valuing material goods above your honour
kys

>>9332087

> thinking cursing an entire army is okay because one dude sullied your honour

kys

>>9332080
Thats actually pretty cool. Is there something similar for me to listen to while biking into the city? I'm currently reading Iliad, would listening to Odyssey enhance the experience?

>>9331678
i guess the odyssey is shit then? all i'm saying is it follows the coming of age of the son, the return of the father after many trials, and the reunion and establishment of justice. odysseus' nostoi is more reminiscent of the stories we tell than the iliad.

>>9331833
you don't see the tragedy of andromache/hector/anstyanax as being the cost of war? briseis likewise was wed to a king before achilles plundered her. the destruction of the family unit because of war runs all throughout the poem. little notes like so and so, who once owned a farm on crete, fell to the hands of diomedes, far from his sheep and his hot baths, as being homer emphasizing the destruction of the oikos?

odyssey likewise is the joining of odysseus, penelope, and telemachus--the basic, greek family unit. the odyssey's themes of hospitality and the joining of man and woman with well-raised heirs is throughout the poem.

>The Ancients

who exactly are The Ancients? for the sake of classicism don't pull bullshit out of your ass. Samuel Butler thought the odyssey was written by a woman because of how sympathetic it is to women along with its non-martial content. internal evidence of the poems would suggest bardic performance was a solely male trait: see phemius, demodocus as examples of homeric bards. achilles, in the embassy to achilles, is depicted as singing the famous deeds of heroes with patroclus. likewise, odysseus when he strings the bow is compared to a bard when he plucks the string like a lyre.

i don't see any evidence for a female homer. but could it be argued iliad/odyssey were composed by women because of how sympathetic they treat their females? i don't think so. the grief the last three women, andromache, hecuba, and helen in iliad 24 is heartbreaking and may suggest this, but the grief of achilles at the death of patroclus is a male counterpart. the simplest answer, i think, would be to say homer was a male bard acutely aware of human psychology and the ultimate costs of war.

/lit/ needs to stop preaching the supremacy of the greeks when they can hardly understand the poems and the fundamental problems surrounding them.

>>9330648
tragedy*
ftfy

>>9331701
Well, it's impossible to infer how Homer wanted Achilles to come across, but the poem is clearly about Achilles's evolution and his character is significantly different in the end, during his meeting with Priam.

>>9331701
i think you're underestimating the greek ego: achilles is the epitome of heroic values. unfortunately it makes him inhuman. michael clarke's "between lions and men: images of the hero in the iliad" talks about this much better than i can here. his quarrel with agamemnon should be seen as a violation of achilles' honour and property. if achilles were to bend to agamemnon's will, then he would be a bitch. do you say sorry when people spill drinks on you? if you do, you're not an achilles.
>>9331740
the tragedy of the iliad is that both achilles and hector are striving for a heroic ideal which ultimately causes an immense amount of grief for the ones they love. hector is given advice by his wife andromache to not meet achilles one on one; when he refuses her sensible advice he is slaughtered after running around troy three times. he knows his death is inevitable, but to avoid it would be to incur the shame of the entirety of troy. he complains to andromache that the women and men of troy would laugh at him as a coward.
>>9331807
achilles refuses on principle. he wants them to hurt in order to sate his need for honour and glory.
>>9332105
judging an old poem on your own flawed conceptions of heroism tells you more about yourself and your own failures than what the poem itself means. read the iliad again and maybe check out some secondary lit. the iliad is maybe my favourite piece of lit of all time. i'm glad people are even talking about it.

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>>9329135
>tfw read the Iliad in 9th grade and found out my English teacher hadn't read it

>>9331418
I do not know enough to argue or confirm, but great post man I really dig it.

>>9331418
I'll suck ur dick IRL boy
you just explained the shit out of how to enhance the classic literature reading experience

So how accessible is prose in the Iliad?

>>9329455
Strong AI can do pretty much whatever the fuck it wants. Assuming it's benevolent and that we tell it to make art, it could very easily make art. For example, it could analyze our culture and art history, read every art theory and criticism book and then proceed to build or utilize a robot arm to paint a painting that just would mimic what a human would do.

Obviously the AI could also create its own artforms or otherwise make something extremely alien.

There are already algorithms that can write music. It's moronic to think that this isn't going to progress further once we have built a superintelligence.

>>9329256
That came later though. Any homeric era texts with references to it?

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A lot of things gone all because Plato wanted to create his "perfect" Republic so bad.

>hyuk hyuk no to poets. they should be gone!

>>9331635
>>9333057
I agree with this guy. The Iliad is about the most destructive war the Greeks could ever envisage, the equivalent of a 'Great War' etc, and as such the Iliad is about the brutality of the war on the oikos (alongside the greatness that comes from war).

The Odyssey is definitely about the restoration of the oikos that has been broken @ Troy. You might argue that the Odyssey is allegorical for the restoration of the Greek psyche following such a devastating war.

>>9333086
underrated post.

>>9334027
Plato was a sperg. Spergs has a problem with getting the bigger picture. This is why you don't put spergs in charge of society.

>>9333690
Very inaccessible, you'll probably want to read a translation if you're even asking.

>>9333943
epic cycle which we've lost.

>>9334071
surely he (>>9333690) wasnt asking about the original homeric greek?

>>9331833
Worthless post.

>>9331418
9/10 Would've been 10 if you used capital letters.

>>9333906
Apart from the fact that the AI you describe doesn't exist, and nobody knows how to create it, that's a sterling post, anon.

>once we have built a superintelligence
Kek.

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>>9331654

>>9331649
Careful you don't burst a blood vessel there, fella.

I suggest you pray for deliverance.

>>9334048
>he hasn't read Thucydides
!

>>9334027
>A lot of things gone all because Plato wanted to create his "perfect" Republic so bad.
no lol stfu noob

>>9333057
>you don't see the tragedy of andromache/hector/anstyanax as being the cost of war?
I didn't say this wasn't part of the Iliad, but you presented it as its "key" or "main theme", to which I disagree.

>who exactly are The Ancients?
Longinus for example speaks of this.

>i don't see any evidence for a female homer.
I didn't say a female Homer, I said he wrote the Odyssey for women.

>/lit/ needs to stop preaching the supremacy of the greeks when they can hardly understand the poems and the fundamental problems surrounding them.
Who do you think you're speaking to, bitch ?
You misread my posts, you can't figure out half the shit I'm saying, you spout your dumb tripe like it's gold coming down from the sky (muh oikos destroyed), and when I, being much more acquainted with the works of Homer and Antiquity than you, find your post so incredibly uneducated and stupid that I reply with single "no"s, you reply with two god damn pages of opinions. Your fucking opinions. "muh destruction of the oikos" --- this is just one little fucking interpretation, read the damn Iliad again and stop thinking you're shit for repeating whatever you heard in whatever Iliad's preface it is that you read, you worthless pile of subhuman shit.

>>9334689
you're hot shit*

>>9331418
I thought this was common knowledge to anyone who has scratched surface deep into it.

>>9329137
>>9329157
you guys just got pranked on

>>9334705
I thought too and then I read this thread.

>>9329481
Nobody really believes this; you're just mimicking George Bernard Shaw, which means you have no opinions of your own.

Let me guess, you think Corialanus is superior to Hamlet, don't you?

>>9334728
hon hon did Shaw say that ?

I knew he was a socialist but that is fuuucking stupid

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>>9334689
equating one hellenist scholar with "The Ancients" is not tenable, but i think you know that on some level.

if you're going to disagree with something i say and go so far as to call me a worthless pile of subhuman shit for it, at least give your own interpretation. for so many words you are hardly saying anything.

i'm actually interested in this: what would suggest homer wrote the odyssey for women? ian morris and andrew dalby have said already that it is certainly possible women were present at bardic performances like those of the iliad and odyssey, but to say that the odyssey was written solely for women, i think, is rash. yet i can see where you're coming from. odysseus states in book 6 that there is

No finer, greater gift in the world than that...
when man and woman possess their home, two minds,
two hearts that work as one. Despair to their enemies,
a joy to all their friends. Their own best claim to glory. (od. 6.200-204)

odysseus glorifies the united, well-working oikos which includes man and woman. but in doing so he stresses the male role: the above passage comes from his encounter with nausicaa, to whom he says should find a husband asap. in homer, women are defined by their male counterparts.

moreover the first word of the odyssey in the original greek is Man--hardly a good start in a for-women interpretation. the odyssey is the story of the nostoi of a man. it is not really ABOUT penelope: her virtue is congratulated insofar as she preserves the oikos for the man to fulfill. penelope serves to be an exemplar for women: male anxieties about the faithfulness of their wives while away at war, at the market, around the corner were very real to the greeks.

telemachus states in odyssey 1.250-251 that it is impossible to really know who gave him life. by having penelope remain steadfast (see the symbol of the fixed, unmoving marriage-bed as well) despite the hordes of suitors, homer creates a foil to clytmnestra, and helen; she becomes the ideal wife to a greek society that fears the treachery of the other two.

it is sympathetic to women, yes, but it's a difficult case to make considering how male-oriented the poem is.

i'm genuinely interested in the content, but i guess you're not, despite being "much more acquainted with the works of Homer and Antiquity" than i am. if you disregard the opinions of scholars that ACTUALLY ARE much more acquainted with the works of Homer and Antiquity than you are, you've done yourself a huge disservice. love.

>>9335280
>equating one hellenist scholar with "The Ancients" is not tenable
Longinus, if I remember correctly, states this as a common opinion.

>to say that the odyssey was written solely for women, i think, is rash.
I never stated this. I stated that many Ancients thought so.

>>9335280
>moreover the first word of the odyssey in the original greek is Man
It is "man" indeed, and not oikos. You were almost there.

>>9335363
you are a pseud of the rarest sublimity. go fuck yourself with a lattimore translation you cunt.

>>9335383
I'm a pseud?

You're the one who replied tomes upon tomes of text to the simple, and true statement that the Ancients often thought the Odyssey had been written for women. At first you thought I had said "by a woman" (you seem to have confused "for" and "by" as well as the plural and the singular), then you thought I had said the Odyssey was actually composed "only for women", --- twice have you tried to read into a single sentence of mine ; and twice you have failed ; and so did you fail to understand both the Iliad and the Odyssey. This misreading of yours is informed by your inane belief that they must have had been written if not by the same author, at least in the same continuity, in a single large idea ; but it is not the case.

Now, I don't have the time to explain the Iliad to you, but I can sure explain this sentence of mine you have twice misread : I equated modernity and feminity, hinting at the idea that that which was composed for women would more closely conform to the tastes of later men.

>>9331665
You're retarded. Nothing you said wasn't already countered by the guy you replied to.