>when ur driving downtown listening to a lecture on baudrillard

>>9226059
what lecture you listening too?

>>9226194
>>9226194
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U9WMftV40c

specifically the part when he talks about the hyperreal. it just made me think about how facebook/twitter/instagram etc are the hyperreal because they are "more real than real," as mr. roderick puts it. they are better than real life which is why the couple was looking at their phones instead of interacting with each other directly.

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>tfw you see a retarded /pol/ack looking at Norman Rockwell paintings and not recognising them for the American propaganda they were/are but accepting them as some glamourised model of the past that never was and then you vote for Donald Trump to make something great again yet never existed in the first place and like his campaign was fully built on lies and immense exaggeration whilst controlling the small but of truth and twisting it

>>9226356
say more about this please

>>9226384

Like what?

>>9226387
in what way are norman rockwell paintings american propoganda? and how do they reflect a past that never happened?

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>when you understand Baudrillard but you still come back here on /lit/

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>>9226400
>when /lit/ makes the real a disappointment

>>9226396

Art is propaganda. It paints a picture of a pristine and often carefree world where everyone gets along (and seem to be all white and all right!) and amusing times are had.

The diner painting is especially telling, as only a few years after it was supposedly set was when cops were beating on blacks because they wanted the same rights as their fellow man.

It's a romanticised past, just like a cowboy movie or a tale from King Arthur.

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>>9226481
Jeremy Rockwell (his grandson? nephew? I forget the exact relation) is also an artist.

I saw this piece recently. It's made from the keys of old keyboards. It seemed particularly nihilistic, to make a skull out of the dirty yellow keys of discarded keyboards.

Anyway, nice to see that Norman's ideological blindness didn't pass onto a future generation.

>>9226497

What did he mean by this?

>>9226334
Hey I listened to that yesterday and thought about social networks too. I recommend watching the documentary Hypernormalisation by Adam Curtis if you don't want to jump into reading Baudrillard yet.

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Was Norman Rockwell /lit/?

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>>9226762
>Drew a picture of himself drawing a picture of himself
I would say yes

Is Baudillard the essential numale-tumblr-letterboxd-"Iknowthings" author?

Every fucking tranny and other mentally ill wannabe intellectual can't stop citing this cuck.

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>>9226766

And the drawing is actually a painting while the painting is clearly a charcoal drawing, this is postmodern as fuck.

>>9226782

Have you ever had an original thought? Or do you just eat whatever /pol/ tells you to eat and then shit it out half-digested onto other boards?

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>>9226497

>>9226794
Who's the original artist of the one above the Rembrandt

>>9226782
baurdrillard is fucking weak shit with some of the most uninsightful schlock to say since marshal mcluhan, if numales read him today, don't know, don't care, but baudrillard sucks

>>9226059
>what if phones but too much

Baudrillard in a nutshell

Hyperreality is /pol/'s successful campaign to delete history and replace it with an alternative history where 4chan was always full of right-wing shitposters.

Hitler was wrong. If you repeat a lie often enough people don't have to believe it. If you repeat a lie often enough it becomes true.

>>9226806
You don't like Mcluhan either? :/

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>>9226803
Durer

>>9226839
Oh boy am I fucking embarrassed.

>>9226818
>an alternative history where 4chan was always full of right-wing shitposters

it's just that being rightwing is the new edgy position, in the 90s being an anarchist or communist or flaming tranny fag was still edgy and radical, but now going to a milo or rothbard talk is the edgy thing to do, face it the tide of history is moving and the 21st century is truly beginning in earnest

>>9226387
pornography please

>>9226782
I thought /pol/ liked trannies

>>9226849
yeah
cool
in the grim darknes of the far future there is only war amirite?

>>9226899
>in the grim darknes of the far future there is only war amirite?

oh no my friend! The Better Angles Of Our Nature are ushering a limitless age of peace! It's The End Of History!

>>9226873
this

>>9226904
Fukuyama got told years ago, games workshop is still up, and i'm not sure i'm your friend

>>9226913
well first of all you made a leap from a resurgence of nationalism to "a grimdark future of war", but suppose that is what i was saying, do you really think that total war between develop nations will never happen again just because it's been two generations? wow, it's been a whole 60 years, i guess that means it can never happen again!

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>>9226806
>>9226819

>mcluhan

skip to 2:23

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqYZS8Z5cZQ&t=1s

What did (t)he(y) mean by this?

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>>9226873
>>9226906

Okay, extremely tired and about to go to bed but here it goes

>tfw you're watching porn and the lighting is absolutely perfect hiding any blemishes or any imperfections that may appear after the duststorm-like applications of make-up, therefore showing that women must be perfect and like all make-up advertisements (a topic all by themselves) show inadequacies if not lived up to along with male performers who are the peak of aesthetic perfection that the average man cannot reach due to outside pressures and, like the female, the imperfections are blotted out by both make-up and lighting
>sound is also a factor as most women do not moan as much like the exaggerated cries of ecstasy that pervade professional pornography the grunts and gasps are there to complete the illusion that the woman is being pleasured when in fact she is getting methodically fucked for multiple takes in front of multiple cameramen, a director, and other support personnel creating a lack of intimacy that must be made up for with careful direction and planning

I had more, but I'm going to bed.

>>9226970
It's been aeons since I saw give her the dick man.

>>9226923
i have no idea what you're blabbering about
i was just sad at the state of this society full of war mongering retards desu

>>9226970
sleep well and come back soon

>>9226967
yo that was p rad desu, although not especially insightful, anyone who read any 20th century shit by anybody already knew that...but it's better than the god awful mcluhan excerpts they have in some college "readers" so i admit enjoyed it

>>9226976
oh so now ur gonna "i was only pretending to be retarded!" ok cool

>>9226970

i maybe i'm a fucking god and don't know it, but i never found the dudes in porn particularly alienating, anybody who goes to the gym can attain that level of fitness and anybody with a dick a standard deviation or two beyond the mean can hang with them, and as far as the women, i see women that could be in porn every day, it's not like being willing to be fucked on a camera for money somehow makes you hotter than the average yoga pants white girl u see jogging around the city, i don't know man, i just can't relate to this "porn is alienating" shit

>>9226988
*yawn*

>>9226988
you sound butt devastated

>741. The stronger you grow, the less real the world seems to be. Baudrillard suffered from this phenomenon as if from a disease; he was sufficiently strong to perceive the world losing its reality before his awesome analytical power, but not strong enough (which is to say not intelligent enough, since at this level of strength, power and intelligence are the same thing, as the rest of the body's contribution to the former, in the form of physical strength, becomes negligible) to analyze precisely this reality loss and understand it, and therefore see it as natural and necessary and good.
>But let's analyze it now. Why does this phenomenon occur? Because reality=power, just as fantasy=weakness (the people who live most in their imagination are the insane). Therefore, the stronger you grow, the weaker the rest of the universe becomes (otherwise you wouldn't have grown stronger), and therefore the less real it seems to be because it is less real=less powerful compared to you, now that you've become stronger. The child takes the reality of the world as a given, because children are extremely weak, but for the genius life seems as "a dream within a dream", in Poe's words. As the world becomes ever weaker, in comparison to the genius's growing intelligence, it becomes so flimsy and ethereal as to be almost imaginary, at which point by a flick of a switch in his brain the genius can set off such a tremendous chain reaction of events as to reshape the world into whatever he wants by nothing more than... "mere" will.

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>>9226972

You can become the give her the dick man. All you must do is give her the dick. I dick, therefore I am.

>>9226982

I will probably not even fall asleep despite sleeping pills. Porn is horrible. Professionally made porn, that is. The stuff they peddle as amateur even more so. I will never understand how people can jerk off to what amounts to boardroom manufactured pornography. Reminds me of Kpop. Hate that shit. Not only is it terrible but really echoes the banal image that South Korea puts forth. For God's sake the irony that they have made esports into what is essentially their national sport seems to be lost on people. Truly ridiculous yet somehow appropriate. Fuck I hate Kpop.

Amateur, true amateur porn, that is where it really is. The love. The passion. Oftentimes I can feel it and remember fondly times I shared with my ex. No rehearsal. No fluffing. No carefully positioned lights to hide our imperfections but instead embracing those imperfections as unique only to the person you love and want to be one with. Fucking bitch. My phone is aggravating to type with.

>>9227003
it's not alienating as much as it became the standard you use to evaluate people, as you just examplified

>>9227024
>it's not alienating as much as it became the standard you use to evaluate people, as you just examplified

we all live in pornworld, it's just some ppl are resentful about it and others just go with it

>>9227023
b-but what if i like bad, terrible porn?
the fakest is the best for me
real life is all around

>>9227032
i so fucking go with it
but then i'm old enough to remember a time before the interwebz

>>9227003

How often do you see women hotter than those in porn? It's not even that they are necessarily attractive but the entire piece coming together is what makes it hot. Where do you see these women and for how long? How close are you to them? How long do you look?

>>9227041

have u ever gone outside my man? jesus christ almighty lol

>>9227041
i fucked a chick who looks exactly like a certain pornstar but desu the irl chick had better tits!

>>9227041
>pornstars are hot/attractive/sexy/beautiful
jesus christ kys

>>9227036

That is fine. None of this is wrong. If you can see it then it is strictly entertainment. However, once it starts to influence your reality then it gets a little weird. Reminds me of 300 and the meme Spartans. The irony of that is that the Spartans were a meme even in ancient Greece but certainly taken up to 11 with people's idea of the warriors being taken from the movie. Or like how pop culture influenced ninja stuff. Or hiw Call of Duty is one big propaganda piece or how that part in CoD4 echoed real life Middle Eastern made up justifications about WMDs. Or how Bugs Bunny made people think rabbits eat nothing but carrots.

sex is hyperreal

>>9227057
>Call of Duty is one big propaganda piece or how that part in CoD4 echoed real life Middle Eastern made up justifications about WMD

>playing the single player campaign in a shooter

shidig lolll

>>9227057
this is how 'culture' or 'history' work, anon
everything is a lie or a gross misrepresentation desu

>>9227045

I'm just asking. I go outside once in a while. I see women more attractive than porn stars and I am not even saying I find porn stars attractive but you must admit with all factors (nudity, lighting, make-up, moaning, etc) they are aesthetically pleasing and often appear free of flaws. Like women on magazine covers or in advertisements. It is a manufactured image.

>>9227064
yeah, but any chick can get glammed up like that, it's not like it's some special magic, any chick can watch some youtube makeup tutorials and look good

>>9227057
>actually talking about video games and shit tier meme films.
l
ma
o

>>9227062

I enjoyed it for what it was and I usually play single player games because I hate the stress of online.

>>9227063

I know nut there is some concrete stuff. Man, I legitimately wonder how much damage media (movies, TV, games, stuff enjoyed by the masses) does to actually credible things. Maybe I just know dumb people but one time my friend and I were talking about his wife and he mentioned he thought she had "Cleopatra eyes" like from that old movie I can't remember the name of. Personally I call the look raccoon eyes but it really showed me that his perception of something as small as a long dead woman's appearance is shaped by a fucking movie.

>>9226970
>male porn actors
>attractive

>>9227064
>they are aesthetically pleasing and often appear free of flaws
try some beer googles
you won't regret it
well, you will, but you're still young and the present is all there is desu

>>9227068

Which is also a false representation of the real self. But what is real if this is all we can perceive? The girl at the convenience store who I think is cute is only cute because of the manufactured appearance that she chose to clothe herself in that day. My reality is twisted by the make-up lie.

>>9227083
>I enjoyed it for what it was and I usually play single player games because I hate the stress of online.

sounds to me like ur a just a lil NOOB with no SKILLZZZZ

jk

or am i

>>9227083
the bible and the quran are full of centuries old delusional sandniggers ramblings shaping our world right now
really makes you think

>>9227072

Yes but these things influence the minds of the masses.

>>9227087

I would prefer not to, desu.

>>9227089
so if u put on deodorant and shaved ur neckbeard then u are presenting a "false appearance" it's called grooming u fucking scrub, get over it

>>9227089
stop it
the make-up lie is cool

>>9227093
you're adorable

>>9227094

Deodorant is actually a pretty good example because the real odour is masked by a facsimile and wasn't even a problem until they started marketing natural smells as something terrible

I would also like to mention that there is a difference in grooming and caking on make-up but you are right as far as outwardly projecting a certain appearance

>>9227098
i hate the shower lie, u see some dude and he seems like a p chill bro cuz he doesn't totally smell like ass after he works out, but then later u find out between pumping iron and getting a protein shake the fucker was actually taking a fucking shower and washing of the sweat! i thought he was just an naturally orderless workout bud, turns out HE WAS DECEIVING ME THE WHOLE TIME!

BEWARE THE SHOWER LIE!

I wish I was as based as Johnny Sinns he looks like he is having good times and fun

>>9227104
ppl have used make-up since before recorded history, stop being a fucking baby

>>9227112

That doesn't change anything I have said

>>9227105
Oh. My. God.

Still trying to find out what is the point of reading Baudrillard where's there Debord.

>>9227168
easier to read?

And I'll never go home again
(Place the call, feel it start)
Favourite friend
(And nothing's wrong but nothing's true)
I live in a hologram with you
Where all the things that we do for fun
(And I'll breathe, and it goes)
Play along
(Make believe, it's hyper real)
But I live in a hologram with you

>>9227208
intenseclapping.gif

>>9226059
Isn't what he calls "modern" a hyper reality where the real was more real than today?

>>9226798
good post

>>9226481

People had good times in the past too. Sometimes people do get along and some of those people are white and amusing times are had.

Sorry, bro, that's just a fact of life. Artists aren't required to make every work a testament to suffering and despair if they want to be valuable or not considered "propaganda."

Some people are pretty happy and paint pretty happy paintings about the life they experience. Not everything is fucking psyops for the inevitable race war.

>>9227546
>authorial intent

>>9227549

I'm not an intersectional, cultural Marxist, continental faggot, so I don't really condone making up fake interpretations of other people's works, throwing the guilt for your ideas onto them, and conjuring up institutional bogeymen to blame for my mental illness.

>>9227562
>if the painter didn't mean his socialist realist painting to be propaganda it's not propaganda

>>9226849
/pol/ is clearly filled with ideologicals though
back in the day everyone seemed much more politically apathetic
it's basically the scientology protests all over again but much more annoying

>>9227570

Well, yes, considering the very definition of propaganda requires intention.

>>9227592
>only artists can have intentions

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>>9226970
>tfw you get lost in a pornscape of furries and anime characters with fetishes and bodies completely impossible in the physical world
>tfw you never remember things being any different

>>9227596

It hardly seems logical to believe that people propagandize themselves by looking at paintings that inherently don't mean anything of the sort.

And then the painting and painter is at fault for depicting some part of American life as "too nice."

And then he probably has no recourse to clear his name because the people who are accusing him are subhumans that communicate only in greentext.

>>9226334
Define reality. How is the internet not part of it?

>>9226967

That guy has good tactics.

Look at those girls. They fucking love that some dude had the balls to come up to them and start talking about shit. I'm sure all of the philosophy is going over their heads but that's the kind of thing we need to do lads.

Less fedoras, though.

>>9227750
What drugs are you on?

>>9227808

Just high on reality.

>>9227819
Oh, so you're a <euphemism>natural</euphemism>.

>>9227806
They probably cut the parts where the girls look at him like he was a rapist and walk away.

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>tfw you are in a manic phase of your various untreated psychiatric disorders and hopped up on caffeine reading baudrillard and pacing aimlessly around the hallways of the social sciences building having forgotten about the meeting you were supposed to be attending and a cute girl from one of your classes asks what you're reading and you tell her it's baudrillard and she asks what he's all about and you try to explain it but it ends up coming out as a 13 minute long spiel about heidegger and demons trying to manifest in our reality by deluding us into digitizing our minds and creating artificial digital minds and you don't notice she's visibly uncomfortable until several minutes too late

>>9227177
t. brainlet

>>9227840
I unironically did this to a woman who asked me what the Nick Land book I was holding was about

>>9227840
>>9227881

Girls ask you what your books are about? What am I doing wrong?

>>9227906
Women are scared of nonwhites.

>>9226849
This isn't new, it's called reactionarism. The intellectual & upper classes, removed from the reality of the classes below them and basically stuck in their own worlds, are obsessed with ideals of freedom, equality, reform, progress, the vanguard, etc.

Normal people aren't. Intellectual classes try to impose reforms they think everyone else wants, expecting to be hailed as saviors. A reactionary movement starts.

>>9227916

But I'm really white.

>>9227926
>Normal people
pure

>>9227934
Unsure what you mean by this but yes I am a bit elitist in respect of thinking some people are more normal than others.

Hopefully this board isn't too leftist for that.

>>9226334
"all this sounds wild crazy", no it sounds dumb as fuck

>>9227018
He's back?

>>9227881
Which book is it

>>9227906
She was in a political theory tutorial with me and several of us went outside to smoke when the tutorial finished. In the tutorial I'd referenced the Clinton campaign's use of a primitive algorithmic AI called Ada to plan campaigns and compared it in passing to the Landian "AI takeover" thesis. I had Fanged Noumena on me and she asked me what I meant by "AI takeover" and if the weird book I was holding had anything to do with it.
>>9228131
Fanged Noumena

My autism kicked in but in the way I didn't want it to - instead of going spaghetti I rambled in monotone about techno-fascism and zaibatsus for about ten minutes. This is one waifu I can say for certain I'm not having.

>>9227177
Baudrillard is more difficult but I don't find him useful or rewarding because he ends up working himself into a corner where he's flat out wrong.

>>9226356
yeah trump mostly sucks but that doesn't change the fact that he was the lesser of two evils

>>9228432
>LibertyOrDeath !!L9JqUeNpR3I

>>9226356
i voted for trump because he's going to deport people like you

>>9226356
I guess this Trump guy is just horrible. He decreased the national debt by $68,000,000,000 in his first month! How horrible! What a dummie!

>>9228467
proofs?

>>9227003
the "alienation" is invented by fat, disgusting people who don't take any care of themselves and see normal as unachievable, instead of taking responsibility for their own person, and then project their own insecurity out there as if it were universal

it's the same way queers try to normalize their behavior, as if their the ones drinking from the universal cup of truth and it's the huge majority of normal people who of course have to be wrong

>>9228476
http://mobile.wnd.com/2017/03/trump-aftershocks-economy-rocks/

Other places are reporting it but they tell you 'yeah well but' instead of the facts.

>>9228467

Trump is easy to bash because he doesn't present himself as an intellectual nor does he have a systemized philosophy. Yet if you actually take the hero of /lit/ Chomsky and his work more seriously than even he does, then you'd recognize that Donald Trump is doing the American republic a giant favor by tackling the deep state apparatus. It's like y'all are perfectly okay with supporting a corporatist surveillance state backed by 6 major media corporations who control 99% of the press. The sign of a pseudointellectual is the person who believes that Donald Trump and his press secretary is more serious Orwellian threat than a multi-billion dollar industry with penetration in hundreds of millions of households.

>>9228488
correcting my mistake before someone spergs at me, *they're

>>9227057
Call of Duty 4 is partially satire though, specifically the AC130 mission, the rest, like Call of Duty 1 and 2 simply put you in the place of a no name soldier caught in historical events beyond yours or any of your comrade's control, it's Medal of Honor taken a step towards its logical conclusion (something like Red Orchestra 2 if it had a single player campaign)

Modern Warfare 2 is more propaganda action schlock though.

>>9228467
I only dislike him for his environmental policy. Honestly though I doubt Hilary would have been any better, at least Trump isn't fucking over the planet from underneath the table.

>>9228495
Do you get all your info from conservative publications? Any halfwit can put a spin on numbers. I'd rather talk to an economist.

>>9228528
>Any halfwit can put a spin on numbers. I'd rather talk to an economist.
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAAHH

WHAT

WHAT

WAHT

WAHT

WHAT

THE FUCK

THE FUCK

AHAHAHAHAHHAHAH

>>9228526
Be real, Hillary wouldn't have defunded the epa

>>9228533
>HAHA

>>9226497
>9226497
This is beautiful, thanks for the involuntary rec

>>9228542
The difference between Hillary and Trump is that Hillary would've been the slow decline and stagnation, Trump will tank everything within a year or two. It's like a heroin addict gradually increasing their dosage and eating less until they get HIV or liver failure, whereas Trump is like suicide by overdose.

>>9226794
I don't know if you're memeing but the case could be argued that this is indeed a very postmodern painting.

>>9228467

we are still using the obama administration's financial stuff trump has yet to put forth anything to fix the economy and the only thing he is helping is his own wallet get fatter courtesy of the tax payer

>>9228542
That is a good point. Fuck it all dude, I just give up. I'm just going to move to the middle of nowhere, find an okay paying job and wait this whole thing out.

>>9227546

the point is that the framed painting as a form, coupled with the canonization of rockwell as representative of the period he depicts in particular, leads to the eternalization of his imagery. looking uncritically at a rockwell painting hypostasizes the past, turns it into a monolithic thanksgiving dinner, wiping out the interconnected infrastructure of exploitative labor relations that make it possible, including and especially those in which the human figures depicted therein are themselves exploited, but those external to the scene, as well. in a word, a rockwell gropes toward the permanence of the superstructure it depicts, insisting on the contingency of the base on which not only its subject-matter, but its very production, relies, when in actual fact the relationship is and has been proven by history to be exactly the reverse: it is the "american family," the "thanksgiving dinner," the "five and dime" and the communities built around it, that find themselves passing away, while capitalism and its productive relations only exacerbate, become more obvious, and drag down and immiserate more of the middle class populations previously thought immune. MAGA seizes on the permanence projected by a rockwell and insists on its restoration, ignoring the objective fact of the conditions rockwell's utopias require having evaporated, and reacting bullheadedly against that very evaporation.

tl;dr: learn to dialectics

>>9227168
Baudrillard is pretty much a defeatist Debord, I don't get why he became such a hot new meme in the past months

>>9228599

cf. the new yorker's recent thinkpiece on the simulation hypothesis: i think it's a combination of the ideological reification of silicon valley ceo fantasies, and basic misreading of what baudrillard means by simulation.

>>9228599
>I don't get why he became such a hot new meme in the past months

probably some publisher is coming out with a Big Ass Collected Works or a New Translation Of Some Old Shit etc. so they had their social media intern do a spam campaign

>>9228612

just out of curiosity, how do you identify politically?

>>9228612
>If we push it hard enough it will be popular

>>9228060
Yes. And thank god for that.

>>9228593
This is another great point about this author, everyone who speaks highly of him and acts like know-it-all & writes without capitalisation like a true fucking Tumblrpseud.

>>9228495
I'm not even questioning the numbers, I believe so, but jesus christ look at that writing, this is disgusting.

>>9228588
Mind posting proofs?

>>9228593
Dialectics are a failed methodology

>>9228624

>illiterate

>>9228636

this'll be good

>>9228610
>>9228610
Dude if you're the guy who's always posting on post-structuralist threads I love your posts, keep up the good work.

Also, good hypothesis, makes sense, but are there people who really think in such literal terms when it comes to Baudrillard? Do they think he was seriously propposing we live in the Sims or some shit?

>>9227752
the internet/media in general is more real than reality so it is reality its just more vivid and exciting and ecstasy-inducing.

>>9226356
are you american? have you ever been to the suburbs? the 1950s were real. there is objective economic data showing that the 50s and 60s were the highest standard of living in american history

>>9228676
But what about all the black people suffering?

>>9228685
the black family unit hadn't been destroyed by liberal welfare programs, so overall there was probably less "black suffering", moreover, blacks are 13% of the population, who gives a shit. it's like saying the growth of the chinese middle class isn't real because some uighyrs in xinjiang province joined isis.

>>9228693
Racist.

>>9228651
the people who cant derive ideas without resulting to pop culture literalism are part of the critique baudbaud talks about

>>9228631

of? i am not entirely sure i can post proof of something not happening but trump has introduced zero bills about the economy. the only thing i can find about his fiscal plans are from 2016 too, and those are campaign promises.

as for making money his scheme of going to mar a lago every weekend (he owns it) and trump tower being rented to protect his wife and son (what a shitty excuse about finishing schooling) it's amazing that people are not red hot in a rage about this. trump's vacations are set to cost more in one year than obama's did in eight years.

>>9228651

i havent really fleshed this out, but i'll just adduce one other example: the matrix (2000?) has a famous shot of keanu reeves using a hollowed out copy of Simulation and Simulacra to store contraband goods. so the association between baudriallard's idea that pre-capitalist lifeways are being usurped by simulated environments that have no "original" referent (disneyland, shopping malls, etc), and the very literal hypothesis that reality is simulated in some inevitably possible supercomputer exists for a certain popular imagination.

the problem is that baudrillard is basically a materialist, and his whole discussion on real/hyperreal needs to be contained within semiotics, ie, within representations, signs, language—in short, anytime he seems to be making claims about the common-sense idea of "reality," you need to mediate that through ideology: so this is "only" how things are experienced in late capitalism, and not at all an ontological, philosophical, or theological statement about the "real," material world. so when people take him "literally," rather than figuratively, as his whole semiotic-materialist perspective assumes, you get people referring to his work as "a sign" that we are in fact the product of a computer program. one confuses a critique of ideology with a statement about ontology.

>>9228697
well if ur just going to devolve into ad homs take it to /b/, scrub

>>9228499
but he's a waaaaaaaaaacist

>>9228703
>pre-capitalist lifeways are being usurped by simulated environments

oh god anthropologists are retarded...do you realize how "simulated" pre-capitalists "lifeways" were? primitive people live in a fantasy world of spooks and spells, and demons and gods...total fantasy world, but if somebody plays a couple games of Call Of Duty and then wacks it to a porno he's no longer living in reality, get the fuck outta here with that shit.

>>9228720
what's being simulated

>>9228725
nothing is being "simulated" anywhere at any time, baudrillard is weak shit for pseuds. what's the matter, deleuze and gattari was too difficult for you?

>>9227752
You're missing the point

>>9228731
you said pre-capitalist life was simulated
what was being simulated

>>9228734
i said it was "simulated"

>>9228745
what does ""simulated"" mean then O genius

>>9228746
what is being simulated now?

>>9228752
why are you asking I haven't made any claims about things being simulated

>>9228758
u said pre-capitalist lifeways are being "usurped" by simulated environments

>>9228763
no, you said that, mr(s) "Anonymous"

>>9226481
so are you saying white families in america never had a nice thanksgiving dinner?

>>9228768
do u even read your own posts or do u just cut and paste this shit from somewhere?

>>9226806
>>9226967
>>9226986

>McLuhan
>A Leaf

They cant keep getting away with this

>>9228775
do you even sniff glue or do you inject it straight into your veins

>>9228731

there's no contradiction between asserting with baudrillard that experience is the simulated construction of ahistorical hyperreality and at the same time asserting with deleuze/guattari that those hyperrealities function as legitimate and potentially revolution nodules in the circuitry of desire

>>9228826
you know what's not real? all of this gay french bullshit!

>>9228852
TITANIC REKT

>>9228880
i'm just saying, if you're so uptight about what's "simulated" or "hyperreal" then maybe you want to consider if the shit you're reading isn't more of the same. moreover, even if we are living in some "simulated hyperreality" it's like ok noted, now what? who gives a shit? this shit, like most philosophy, is fucking stupid. hegel was probably the last guy who wasn't retarded.

>>9227867
i'm overcompensating tho

>>9227826
so what?

>>9228921
It's cherry picked up make him look better than reality.

>>9229021
like any other video?

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>>9226059
What I like most of your little story is this part:
>when ur driving downtown listening to a lecture on baudrillard
This is much more absurd, to be listening to a lecture while you drive downtown, than what the couple did with their cellphones there. It is that which you don't see in your own example that signifies more accurately what your criticism is about when talking of the example of others.
In order to criticize yourself and build a comforting narrative, you do it in a veiled way, disguising it for the criticism of the other. This way you can get rid of your own opinions and fears in words, but not acknowledge them to be about yourself.


Purest ideology.

>>9226059

>being upset that both deep and shallow things give people enjoyment
>being upset at other peoples enjoyment
>stop liking the things I dont like
>or nofunzone.jpg?

>>9229084
i'm pretty sure this is clever
i may be wrong tho

fuck you guys i love this thread <3

Where is Girardfag when you need him?

>>9229299
yeah, girard is like the only interesting dude these days

>>9228896

chill out man. i'm just telling you what baudrillard said. the only claim i would make in its defense is that it's somewhat useful for explaining aspects of culture.

>>9228685
>>9228693

Also after the interstate was built freeways destroyed black neighborhoods. That sucked.

>>9229108

you are. its baby's first interpretive argument.

>hurr u didn't see what u ackschually wrote

>>implying that the absurdity of the premise isn't the ground floor of the irony
>>>implying that the base, "sincere" signification, the cultural referent from which the subject position of the narrator derives its ethos, namely academic theory, isnt made ironic and thus removed as a basis for discourse precisely in orders to perform the collapse into simulacra of which baudrillard writes
>>>implying this doesn't deconstruct all "relatable" memes and green texts as "relating" to an experience lived by no one
>>>implying ideology doesn't live for you

>>9228921

>haha everything is based on how you perceive it and this video is manipulated to only show certain parts and leave out others

>lmao WHOC ARES????!!!??!?!?!

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>I unironically read baudretard
>I actually think baudretard is smart and has something intellectually valuable to offer

I'll have fries with that

>>9229584
>t. triggered /sci/tard

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Baudrillard's philosophy: "what if Max Stirner had read Nietzsche?"

>>9229655

great try

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>>9227057
Spartans being a meme is a meme. 300 is literally a comic book exaggeration but the spartans were a disciplined organised and profesional fighting force feared and respected throughout Hellas, and Sparta was for period in the preminent power in the agean despite only being basically a loose collection of small villages.

>>9229738

They were disciplined but not exactly feared because of their prowess on the battlefield. They memed that back then and it continues to be memed now.

>>9229084
>>9229108
i was driving for work and i get tired of listening to music/podcasts so i put on that lecture after listening to the one on foucault from the same lecture series. ur looking for something that isn't there. i wasn't just driving for no reason listening to a lecture.

>>9230281
those rick roderick lectures are fun, but they're kind of weak, he's like a west texas zizek, he just spam jokes and random philosophy snippets

>>9230297
agreed! i wish there was more depth but i can't really find anything better to listen to on the same postmodern topics.

>>9230281
>>9230297

for example, he does a joke about marx's "opium of the masses" remark, saying that "today the opium of the masses is real opium!"...ok first of all, opium was legal in marxes time and widely used, second he seemed to do the frequent misread of that in that the "opium of the masses" is to somehow trick the masses...now, you give opium to a person in pain, religion relieves the pain of the masses, etc.

also, the guy always talks shit about "fitness fanatics" right up until he died at 50 of a massive heart attack due to being an obese fuck

>>9230299
Yale Open Courseware's Introduction To Literary Theory

http://oyc.yale.edu/english/engl-300#sessions

>yfw u realize that there are ppl on lit right now who haven't watched all the yale humanities classes

>>9230312
shit dude thanks!!!

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Baudrillard was just a communist who got so embarassed about Western anti-communist regimes being better than the Eastern Bloc that he wrote a whole philosophy dedicated to deny reality.

I'm sorry, commies, but your whole philosophy library won't deny the fact that the Soviet Union was a shithole and that it collapsed.

>>9230412
hyperreal cold war larper

Whole thread is cancer

>>9227599
B E T A M A L E
https://vimeo.com/75534042

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>>9230412
Mmm...bait.

>don't do it man don't do it
>oh come on just one teeny bite
>ffs man why just why why do it
>fuck you wiser conscience you can't tell me what to do
>w/evs but it's a terrible idea

*eats bait*

So, how about a source for that claim?

>>9228720

read critique of the economy of the sign

>>9228769
No he said that it wasn't nice
>the painter forget to paint the true reason behind the smiles, a nigger hanging on the Christmas tree

>>9226782
Baudrillard is a reactionnary. Clearly not your typical post-modern "intellectual".

>>9228499
I sincerely hope you are right. But I have very reasonable doubts about that.

>>9230412
exactly why you should read Debord and not Baudrillard

>>9227752
It's the simulation of 'reality' which has taken precedence over it

>>9231751
Debord was more of a communist than Baudrillard ever dreamed of.


What is this new meme of people pretending Debord and Stirner are not left wing thinkers? I even think you can use their works to construct your right wing views, but to pretend they're not on the very end of the libleft spectrum is a bit autistic.

>>9232726
Debord was an anarchist u fuckhead, don't u remember that part in his stupid woody allen ripoff movie where the girl is like "i can't believe u actually believed in castro!" etc.

>>9226396
Rockwell shows the idyllic american "white picket fence etc.." stereotype, and not the actual harsh reality that was the 50s for many people (not just minorities) and an existence of compliance and tradition which no longer exists, but yet one so many yearn for.

>>9232765
>not the actual harsh reality that was the 50s for many people (not just minorities)

are you retarded? the 50s in america was the biggest economic expansion in the history of world

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>>9226481
I wouldn't go so far to say Art is propaganda. For there exists some very subversive art that appeared before Rockwell. But his work does offer a comfort that does not exist.

>>9232765
this push to say the 50s and 60s weren't that good is actually reactionary, they don't want americans to remember how high the standard of living was back then compared to now, so while you pat yourself on the back for "caring about minorities" or whatever, you're playing right into the koch-walton gambit of normalizing falling standards of living for the working class, good job, comrade

>>9228467

Neat! The public debt is ~$13,000,000,000,000

68,000,000,000/13,000,000,000,000=.00523 or about half a percent

A whole half percent reduction in the public debt! Wowweee! So glad I have up the National Endowment of the Arts and all those other programs to achieve this monument!

What's the interest rate again? ~2% you say! Wowwee.

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>>9232777
the standard of living is higher now then it ever was in the 50's or 60s stop looking at the past with rose-tinted glasses.

Now the cost of living has increased. Thats the obvious distinction

>>9232775
Subversive art IS propaganda by definition.

>>9232802
if you're a rightwing guy and these are the alternative facts you want to peddle that's cool, but if you think you're a leftist then you're being tricked

the "cost of living increased" because in real dollars adjusted for inflation you are making significantly less than people did in the 50s, oh and since you care so much about minorities, in the 50s blacks working in the american auto industry in detroit had intact family units and high rates of home ownership, check out the standard of living in detriot now...

>>9232848
>if you're a rightwing guy and these are the alternative facts you want to peddle that's cool, but if you think you're a leftist then you're being tricked

the cognitive dissonance is astounding.

And one city with thriving industry doesn't justify the other instances of instability and destruction of the south.

>>9232732

>anarchism is not leftist

>>9232768

how on earth you think that means most americans didnt have shitty lives is just a testament to the effectiveness of rockwell's appropriation as propaganda

>>9234894
>Debord was more of a communist than Baudrillard ever dreamed of.

>>9234904

thought he was responding to this part of the post

>people pretending Debord... [is not a] left wing think[er]?

>>9234899
oh i get it, you're from some shitty european shit hole, and they try to tell you america didn't have the highest standard of living on the planet so u don't feel so butt blasted about living in a high taxation socialist and/or catholic dump, cool

>>9232921
there was no "destruction of the south", the very reason the civil rights movement succeeded was because everyone was making so much money and feeling so fucking comfortable, you clearly don't know anything about american history or economics, maybe you should just stfu

>>9232732
He spends quite some time in SoS (and other SI texts) riffing on anarchists.

Also, him being a left-socialist (which is what anarchists are) doesn't really contradict my point.

>>9232775
>subversive art
if it's subversive, it's subverting against something
therefore, it's pro-something
therefore, propaganda

I mean, the very painting you chose is republican propaganda.

>>9234911

nah homie, postwar period was shit for europe too. stop guzzling the history of the rich.

this is the most dissapointing baudrillard thread.

>debates about whether the 50s were good
>expected "leftist cuck" posts

I'm really surprised that the alt-right, /pol/ types ( I know I'm over generalizing, I'm sorry) aren't interested in Baudrillard. His kind of doomsday outlook on contemporary society should have some appeal, I'd think.

and all these accusations that trannies are interested in Baudrillard are totally wrong. He flirts with misogyny and trnasphobia quite a bit in a book like the Transparency of Evil.

A lot of my leftist friends are suspicious of my interest in Baudrillard, for these reasons.

>>9235123
are you seriously this determined to deny reality? in the 50s and 60s the united states had the highest standard of living in the world. rather than chanting death to america, you should look at who brainwashed you to think america was poor in the 50s. there was a reason the birth rate went sky high in the 50s, it's because everyone had jobs that could pay for houses, cars and kids. this is objective fact.

>>9235151
>>9235151
They actually are and I'd wager half of the recent Baudriposting is done either by full /pol/lacks or people who got into him and Debord and are having the """"""redpill""""" forcefully torn out of their throats.

>>9235123
If anything, the 40s and 50s are precisely what "the rich" were trying to undo during the 60s: high income taxes, a strong labor movement, limited employment of immigrants, Keynesian policies, and all the other New Deal programs. The Republicans grudgingly accepted the New Deal and the Fair Deal while Eisenhower was in office, despite entreaties from business leaders, but by the time Nixon became president, the Republicans started taking the steps to tear all of that down to eventually replace it with the neoliberalism of Reagan.

>>9235491
yes! thank you, finally someone who knows the history of class struggle in america

>>9232779
Shut up retard.

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>>9226059
I'm impervious to that shit because I'm from /g/ and long since replaced my consumer shit cellphone with an iridium satellite phone and using pagers and motorola C123s running osmocom firmware on a custom GSM loop. The idea of taking a picture with a phone is repulsive to me since I have dedicated hardware for that (AKA a camera). Anyone who accepts the Bourgeoisie notion of all-in-one tech gadgets is not a power user but is subordinated to the device and by extension the state through the device. Stay cyber af, stay schway, stay free.

>>9226970
>>tfw you're watching porn and the lighting is absolutely perfect

nigga i pump my spud EXCLUSIVELY to homemade amateur interracial porn. dunno what the fuck this "perfect lighting" that you're talking about is.

>>9235522
i only like amateur porn if it's a pov blowjob, when ppl try to film themselves fucking it's always a super boring angle with shitty lighting

>>9228697
>using racist as an argument/insult all by itself

lmao do you even know where you're at?

>>9235512
fuck off back to lainchan you disgusting fucking luddite. or better yet, why don't you stop using the internet and instead communicate with nothing but smoke signals if you don't want to be tracked by the state.

>>9235512
>iridium satellite phone
old /g/ here too and I call bullshit. The access charges to use their satellite constellation are obscene.

>>9226400
>>9226410
How do people who understand the concept of the precession of the simulacra post memes? Is it all tongue and cheek?

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>>9235542
do not insult lainchan pls

>>9235562
Yeah they are, but kinda necessary for work, tho I concede I don't use it for personal calls kek.

>>9235606
lainchan is incredibly inane, and is mostly full of kiddies larping cyberpunk aesthetics. *chans have never been a good place to talk tech shop

also
>using a propriety telecom network

>>9235646
YOU'RE INANE

>>9234925
being lynched sure sounds comfortable

>>9235682
lynching didn't happen in the 50s and 60s you god damn idiot, in fact the same way ppl like you always say "you have more chance of bring hit by lighting than getting blown up by a muslim" the same applies to lynchings in the south, you have more chance of getting hit by lightning that getting lynched, at the all time peak of lynching somewhere in the 1910s it was less than 5,000, something like 1,500 if i remember correctly, and that is out of the millions of blacks who lived in the south, oh and whites got lynched too, so out of 1,500 lynchings maybe 250 where white, maybe more

>>9235592
4chan itself has its tongue in its cheek

>>9235690
>lynching didn't happen in the 50s and 60s you god damn idiot
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States#Lynching_and_the_Cold_War

>>9235690
wow, i just told you FAKE NEWS, the TOTAL lynchings in all of American history is less than 5,000 with only 3,500 of those being black people, wow i guess someone with an agenda gave us a warped idea of american history, eh? i wonder who would do such a thing?

>>9235690
empicically wronk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States
>ppl like you
>people have to be consistent with the type of views I imagine they have

>>9235693
how many lynchings where there that whole period? 10? 15?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes

>>9235698
>empicically wronk

it's true you're right, i VASTLY over estimated the amount of lynchings, kek

>>9235693
Jesus Christ, I can't go a day without finding something that disgusts me even more about Hoover and Kissinger or Nixon or some other american schmuck.

The US is fucking hell.

>>9235701
You were infinity times off m8 stop backpedaling.

>>9235696
did you just use the phrase fake news on fucking /lit/

>>9235690
While it's more or less true that race-based lynchings died out with the KKK during the post-Eisenhower crackdown, I'm fairly certain that Sherman (a full hundred years earlier, granted) burnt the fuck out of most of the deep south, especially Georgia. So there was a "destruction of the south," just much further back in history than described.

>>9235707
we where talking about the 1950s not the 1850s you got damn fuck head

>>9235711
>fuck head

>>9235707
Sherman should have just burned them all desu

>>9235711
lemme tongue punch your fart box bby boy :^)

>>9235711
Well, you said "there was no 'destruction of the south,'" not "there was no 'destruction of the south' in the '50s." Just trying to keep things clear.

>>9235717
Agreed. Fuck the Confederacy. I want to be living in a world where having a southern accent immediately marks you as a slave laborer.

>>9227018
But if the world seems a fantasy to the genius, would he not be weak by your definition? I mean, isn't it a contradiction to say that Baudrillard is "strong" even though he can't look past the fantastical parts of his natural world?

Fantasy and will are the same thing: thought. "Fantasy" is thought turned on thought, and "will" is thought turned on perception (reality). Isn't a "genius" a person who can will into fantasy, i.e. think about their perception (will) and then analyze that will (fantasize)? Don't all great innovations first have to be imagined?

Also, he can't reshape the world with "mere" will; regardless of how smart he is, he'll still have to undertake a concrete action. What are you, a solipsist?

>>9226806
What is "uninsightful" about his work? What have you read by him? Can you go into a little bit of detail? Who do you think is a good theorist?

>>9235812
i read his stupid essay on the gulf war where he was going on and on about how it's the first war that people only saw on tv or whatever...like uh, are you saying ppl didn't watch vietnam on tv? or that since ppl read about the crimean war in newspapers instead of seeing it on tv is was more real? it just seemed pretty stupid, i read some more of his shit but forgot it since it was just more of the same shit "omg muh mass media is fooling teh prolez"

>>9235745
The genius is the one who see that fantasies are the expression of an impotence which leads to unhappiness and that the way to stop unhappiness is precisely to stop nourishing these fantasies, which turns out to means to stop taking for personal what was taken for personal before, because the result of the fantasies depend too much on other people and that attempting to realize them will never ever stop unsatisfaction.
The potency is reached once the fantasies no longer come up, then there are still perceptions which needs to have the same fate : stop nourishing them to stop unhappiness.

>>9235989
I guess you're using "fantasy" to mean "rampant imagination"? You're using it in the old sense of the word, akin to a self-ambulating phantasm or possessing spirit? I agree that those sorts of "fantasies" are bad. I'm more interested in how you account for positive imagination, i.e. innovation. I mean, one has to contemplate e.g. how to build an FTL engine before one can actually build an FTL engine. That is, again, just an example of something that would probably take a "genius" to produce; I don't want to get into a debate about the physics of FTL travel.

>>9236044

You don't need to go 'faster than light'; you gotta bend spacetime.

>>9235502
>>9235491
>>9235248

>rich white people's history