>be a very smart intellectual >early college degree and

>>9216926
Yep. And the kids that populate /lit/ these days perpetuating all the reddit memes, showing their capability for independent thought and critical understanding.
Also, Nietzsche was much more than just "a very smart intellectual".

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>>9216926
>he hasn't combined Nietzschism and Egoism to become the true uberman
Heh

>>9216931
Tee bee haich hadn't read much of him until recently, then read through thus spoke zarathustra and beyond good and evil

I was shocked by the dissonance between what public perception of his ideas are and what they actually are.

I wonder how he came to be the go to guy to describe edgelord "nothin personnel" behavior

>>9216926
God damn it I hate this plebeian reading of Nietzsche. Yes he wrote polemics, but everybody did in the Germany of his time! It's not to do with him being a wicked sick cynical nihilistic sense of humour BADASS!

If you haven't seen and familiarized yourself thoroughly with every opera of Richard Wagner and Nietzsche's Birth of Tragedy then you're getting off to a wrong start in reading Nietzsche.

His entire later work again Christianity is a reaction to the unification of the Reich and R.Wagner's late mysticism in Parsifal!

>>9216940
Easy: it's very very typical for edgy teenagers to shallow-read him and justify that way their superiority complex, their edgyness and loneliness and their social ineptitude -also their 'nihilism'.

>>9216940
Maybe the Alfred Hitchcock film Rope played into it. Also Hitler

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>>9216944
(cont.)

99% of the time I hear the word Nietzsche it's spoken either in this Reddit stereotype (also that moustache photo was edited by Elizabeth Forster-Nietzsche to make his moustache bigger, obviously to convey exactly this epic manly image she shlicked herself to of him), or he's spoken about by morons like Michel Foucault and his lousy followers.

Why can't people even familiarize themselves with the actual text and it's targets? I don't even see how you can even read anything by Nietzsche without having already seen the Ring des Nibelungen and Tristan for instance.

The shitty translators Kaufmann (American humanist popularizer) and incredibly dated Hollingdale are partly to blame, luckily Oxford World's Classics have been coming out with new translations of his books which are superior, but everyone on /lit/ still buys the Penguins...

Nietzsche's reception has been so maddeningly bad! I've avoided him because of this for so long, and have only begun to love and understand him after immersing myself in Richard Wagner.

It's so bizarre how people imagine that Nietzsche's 'enemies' if you can call them that, can be just dismissed. Everything Nietzsche was doing, was to bring certain 'Idols' of his onto the stage of his life, and battling their influence, trying to break out of their conceptual edifice in the 'revel'. Nietzsche's style was oppositional, but he didn't concern himself with battling and opposing the local criminal or petty thief, and so the people he enters into encounters with, are to be taken very seriously.

Getting rid of this oppositional core of Nietzsche's revel, which isn't dialectic though resembles it, but something else, and in a way something far more intimate than any rational, commercial bourgeois debate.

We've ended up canonizing Nietzsche despite him being a self imposed exile from every canon, submitting him to a trivialization far separate from the passion and despair of the spirit of music and drama which formed him.

>>9216944
I listened to all of Wagner's (major) operas. Love Tannhauser and Parsifal.

>>9216979
You I like.

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>be preacher in rural backwater
>have as your main teaching compassion for others, even those who hate you
>practice teachings, even when you'te betrayed by your own followers and tortured to death
>2000 years later get co-opted by LARP crusaders on /pol/ because "following you is the white thing to do, also turn the other cheek really means violently conquering Jerusalem and killing everyone who disagrees with me also you totally weren't Jewish you actually were a full blooded Aryan Germanic SHUT UP MOM IM TRYING TO WIN THE RACE STRUGGLE IN FAVOR OF OUR GLORIOUS WHITE RACE YOU WATCH ON THE DAY OF THE ROPE WHEN THE KIKES AND THE NIGGERS RAPE YOU TO DEATH YOU AND ALL THE HOT GIRLS WHO WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH FAT NEET NAZIS LIKE ME WILL BE THINKING OF ME DOOS FAULT DOOS FAULT YOU FUCKING BITCH"

EVEN BIGGER JUST

>>9216979
>>9216984
Where do i start with Wagner and how to i get to "know" him?

>>9216926

How do I properly start with Nietzche?

>>9217070
Thus spoke Zarathustra

his work in chronological order

Thus spoke Zarathustra

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>applying darwinism to metaphysics
>its tru because overcoming urself is like evolution lulz
>kant is an idiot xd
Bravo Nietzsche. Where would we be without you?

>>9217070
It's usually recommended to read Beyond Good and Evil first, also you can go for the Geneaology of Morals imo.
Twilight of the Idols is his self-summary of his philosophy.

This >>9217092 should be the last one you read, as it assumes you already understand Nietzsche's philosophy.
You can read it directly, it wont kill you, but you will probably miss important stuff.

>>9216931
>>9217121
Take a look at yourself right now

>>9217124
Not an argument brainlet :)

>>9217131
Neither was yours. Bravo.

>>9217121
This desu.

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>>9217034
Well his work breaks down into this:

Three romantic Operas: --- none of these are his masterpieces, they stick (at least more than his later works) to German operatic conventions of the time, and are overshadowed by his later works, but they are still very good in their own right.

Der fliegende Holländer
Tannhäuser (Not to be missed, get the Gwyneth Jones' Bayreuth version of 1978 on DVD, pirate it or something, remember to find good quality torrents)
Lohengrin

Wagner then abandoned 'Opera' (to return in Meistersingers), in favour of different genres of 'music drama' he created, all his late works here are considered his masterpieces:

Bühnenfestspiel:
(aka. the Ring cycle)
Das Rheingold
Die Walküre
Siegfried
Götterdämmerung

This is his magnum opus and it'd be good to start with it. Levine's Metropolitan opera version is grotesque in that they spent too much money on massive constumes trying to make it a traditional version, and the singing is flat, music is good however, but the acting is atrocious and nobody moves on the stage. The Barenboim/Kupfer version now on blu-ray is one of the best recent productions, with brilliant singers and actors, superb music, but the costumes are just a little dated in that it'd take a little getting used to. It doesn't patronize your imagination though and isn't as ridiculously over-dressed as Levine's version, very well made --- I consider it the best production.

Then there's the French version of Boulez and Chereau, the Jahrhundertring (Centenary Ring). This is another brilliant production, with the setting controversially modernised, but introduced movements and stagings which are now considered classic and iconic.

Someone new to the Ring should watch the Barenboim Kupfer version, it's excellent and doesn't actually (despite it's modernized design) in fact change any of the fundamentals of the Ring, the Rhinemaidens are not cancan dancers as in Chereau's version, the Gods are not aristocrats for instance, the subtitles which come with the blu-ray are perfect too.

Barenboim/Kupfer's version is full of movement and the characterisation superb, before watching however you want to read up a little on the basic outlines of the Ring cycle, there are good companion books (for all the operas) such as pic related, which has the entire libretto (and is great to read because the Ring is a poem on it's own account), but you don't need to be a scholar, you can dive in.

Handlung: (Literally 'Act', as in a single dramatic and musical movement)

Tristan und Isolde

A masterpiece, Barenboim and Chereau's 2015 edition is a good one. It's also a good starting point, though by no means does that mean it's for beginners. It's up there with the Ring. Incidentally Nietzsche's favourite.

His only late Opera, comedy:
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg

Bühnenweihfestspiel (consecreated stage festival play):

Parsifal (last work, to be approach last).

>>9217123

Are there are prerequisites before starting his work?

>>9217134
Indeed brainlet, it was a summary of his philosophy which I encourage everyone to verify for themselves like the very smart intellectuals they are.

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>When someone talks about infinite recurrence as if it's a theory

>>9217160
Whatever makes you sleep well at night :)

>>9217156
Schopenhauer is a very important influence. The philosophical contrast between them is really beautiful.
But really, Nietzsche negates basically all western philosophy -you would have to read it all, pretty much. Anon once said: "leave Nietzsche for last, he's the endgame of philosophy".

>>9217121
that downy actually looks pretty smart and handsome for a downy desu.

maybe we should let them grow old.

>>9217156
Yes, operas of Wagner esp. Tristan, classical tragedy, Schopenhauer, a good knowledge of Goethe and Winckelmann's (classical and romantic German aesthetics)...

>>9217166

>when someone talks about eternal recurrence without knowing a dint about Wagner, the theorist of infinite recurrence (eternal melody), who's dramas turn around a singular great event, and who's Ring is literally the eternal recurrence as the ending rejoins the beginning.

>>9217169
>Nietzsche negates basically all western philosophy -you would have to read it all, pretty much. Anon once said: "leave Nietzsche for last, he's the endgame of philosophy".

This is a meme made from a misreading of the Gotzen-Dammerung.

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>>9217152
I approve this well-written post.

Heading to the gettin' place to download Wagner's works.

>>9217121
Nietzsche explicitly rejects Darwinism.

But OK.

>mfw people don't realise Nietzsche was an idealist who took aesthetics as the primary philosophy

>>9217185
So there is no way to enjoy Nietzsche's writings without being extensively well versed in all philosophy predating him?

>>9217207
>No way to enjoy
What? Just read him.

>>9217168
You sound triggered brainlet. It's nothing to do with me. Everyone can verify for themselves whether Nietzsche was or was not an overenthusiastic fanboy of Darwin's applying a biological theory to logical space and metaphysics in a philosophically untenable manner and whether he hated Kant simply because those patriarchal prussian words were simply too complicated for our little philologist. N's critique of the copr suggests that this is the case but nobody should take my word for it. Taking my word would be the Nietzsche Way.

It's fine if Nietzsche/you don't want to play the game but please be a good boy, m'very smart intellectual, and drop the pretense that you are. It's kinda embarassing.

>>9217215
You are the living definition of a pseud. Clearer case I've seen this week.

>>9217207
Not at all, to be well versed in all prior philosophy is in fact impossible and not desireable. Someone with a disease for scholarship to that level would be compulsively looking for what they already know in everything else. You just jump in. If you're not an idiot you'll instantly see the falsity of any of the reductions of Nietzsche to any of his 'theories' as they're vulgarly called.

He starts from Wagner, and his work is a brilliant example of dramatic, aesthetic writing, especially in Zarathustra. At his best he's an engaged and dramatic writer who's sentences are performative as much as intellectual. (He gave as his purpose to inspire other rhapsodists or revellers).

>>9217215
It's rather clear who's feeling triggered here, the incessant need of putting "brainlet" in every post you type up makes that evident enough

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>>9217215
>You sound triggered brainlet.

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>>9217201
Wrong. He rejects in a categorical and anti-intellectual manner the philosophical speculations and implications at his time because of his verysmart syndrome. Darwin was his idol. Sorry brainlets but Nietzsche was a 5/10 thinker.

>>9217223
>>9217219
>>9217224
Nietzschean dialectics everybody.

>>9217229
>Nietzschean dialectics
>Nietzsche
>Dialectics

Stop embarrasing yourself kiddo. Go watch tv or something.

>>9217229
wtf I hate Nietzsche now

>>9216926
Nietzsche? Sorry, I'm a philosopher. I shouldn't waste my time with unsubstantiated opinions

>>9217261
I'm an Englishman.

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>>9217284

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>be an overzealous philologist
>have no philosophical background except for translating presocratics
>never studied Aristotle, Descartes, Locke, Hume. Kant
>write low IQ magnum autismo that's main message is to equate truth to life making a complete fool of yourself in the eyes of science and professional philosophy
>200 years later still laughed out of court by anyone capable of critical thought
>a fucking horse
JUST

>>9217365
The physiognomy of a school shooter. Color me surprised.

>>9216926
What is the Magnum opus which says to overcome yourself? I'm interested in reading that

Catholic here. I still have to read this fuck but Peterson helped me understand he's actually a genius and not just a tipper. A much more important man than I thought.

>>9217121
> I am actually one of the smartest people I know

>>9217367
kek this

Also
>20 unique posters
Lads..

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>>9216926

>>9217412
>recognize early in life that nihilism is going to be the bane of human existence
I remember when I was 16 too.

>>9217365
Nietzschefags btfo

>>9217365
>>have no philosophical background except for translating presocratics
>>never studied Aristotle, Descartes, Locke, Hume. Kant
Both wrong.

>>write low IQ magnum autismo that's main message is to equate truth to life making a complete fool of yourself in the eyes of science and professional philosophy
Nietzsche's early fame should be linked with his Birth of Tragedy, wich immediatly entered the philological and philosophical canon.

>>9217422
>>9217427
>>9217365
BTFO

>>9217430
>be a complete fucking idiot
>too stupid to understand Nietzsche
>spend your valuable free time dissing him in multiple threads, using shitty arguments that have nothing to do with his writings

It sucks to be you.

>>9217437
No! You use ad hominem! I win fallacy fuck. You dweebs obviously don't understand neetzsche. German is my native language brAinlet

>>9217261

All opinions are unsubstantiated.

The reception speaks for itself. Western tradition won, Nietzsche lost.

Deal with it.

>>9217448
Yeah that's what I would say too if I was a nietzsche nuthugger.

>>9217123
the lack of understanding is exactly why you should read it first

once you have finished his work and reread it your understanding will be much more impactfull

>>9217501
Into the trash, monkey.

>>9217515
>unable to think for himself
>needs other people to tell him what to think
i know brainlets like you don´t understand this but if you read something you can think about it by yourself instead of having to always have every bit of context
i know this is really incredible

THE BIRTH OF TRAGEDY IS HIS BEST WORK

>>9217227
How is it like not being able to think without memes or simplifications?

>>9217421
you were a nihilist?

>>9217462
But the Neetch influenced damn near every philosopher after him, like Kant. How's that for "losing"?

>>9217365
he looks always so disgusted and disgusting without his moustache
It's the upper lip he was hiding behind there

>>9218816
110% kek

>>9219644
Kek indeed

>>9219420
*just like Kant
expressed myself badly there.

>>9216926
>say most people are going to misread your work
>maybe at most two people will read it and not freak the fuck out
he knew

>>9217017
i don't get it, can you make the joke a little more rudimentary for me please

>>9216948
How can you shallow read him when he plainly states his ideas in his introduction work such as Beyond Good & Evil

Fucking terrible misinterpretation, hijacking and undermining of philosophical thought.. for what end goal?

>>9222734
It's VERY easy to shallow read Nietzsche.
There's no end goal. Some people out there are fucking retarded, anon.

>>9216938
That's basically Evola anon

>>9217017
Wtf I'm pagan now

>>9217070
At least read an intro to philosophy text if you have no background. Then read a few Greek tragedies, there are only a few in existence and most are pretty short, so just pick a few from each author that interest you. Just make sure you read the Bacchae.
Then read the Birth of Tragedy, follow up with Beyond Good and Evil.

>>9217017
>>have as your main teaching compassion for others, even those who hate you

"But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”

>>9216979
This is the first time I encounter someone on /lit/ who read Nietzche correctly.

>>9218816
neechee posting has got out of hand lately

>>9217017
>have as your main teaching compassion for others, even those who hate you

"no"
this is the equivalent of the misreading of Nietzsche that OP mentioned for Jesus

>>9217017
Didn't condemn widespread slavery though.

>>9224934
What

>>9224950
NT has bullet points on how to be a good slave owner.

>>9216944
I enjoy Wagner, but havent' gotten that deep into him, is this really necessary?

>>9224976
key word: good

>>9222912
Nigga no...obviously not.

>>9224998
Some slave owners were better than others, but were there "good" slave owners?

>>9225024
i don't see why not

>>9224976
There wasn't a place without something like slavery then and no slave-less time to lack book onto

>>9225056
True. But coming from the "god" angle that's no excuse.

People misunderstand Nietzche so much. Nazis wanted him to be a race supremacist and he had to constantly fight them and tell Nazis to fuck off with their misinformation.

>>9225065
I don't see how it isn't. The christian promise is not to better or even change the condition of those who suffer in this world, including slaves

>>9225003
Nigga yes, he wanted the spiritual ego to be so big and self sufficient as to not need anything else. He just didn't want the abuse of it which he called the Titanic Fall

>>9225074
What? Nietzsche fought the Nazis

>>9225080
Yeah that's the point. His sister basically screwed over his publications and started spreading misinformation about the intent of his writings. They turned ubermensch into some weird nationalistic race ideology when Nietzche himself fucking hated nationalism and other herd mentality movements.

What did Nietzche believe? Basically:
>don't be a fucking pleb
>stop accepting your position in life and taking values that are convenient (e.g. being an unlovable virgin and claiming you are holy for being celibate)
>live life to its fullest, take some chances and aim high

>>9225094
What? No way!

>>9216979
Why would one need to be familiar with Wagner in order to understand Nietzsche's philosophy?

>>9217207
You might enjoy it because he is genuinely a great prose stylist, and executes it better than most fiction writers, but you will not understand it.

>>9224976
A good slave owner, that does not mean it is advocating slavery.

>>9225158
Because he liked Wagner's aesthetic?

>>9225185
Please be more pacific.

>>9225195
If you seek his monument...

>>9225185
can you put that a little more atlantic for me?

>>9225204
What is unclearly said...

>>9225258
>anal autistics
What I said was clear, try doing a Google.

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>>9225272
>>autistics
>doing a google

/thread

>>9225300
>he doesn't do his Googles while bobbling the autistics

>>9225176
Doesn't condemn it either, that is recognizing it as a practice that's neither good or bad.

>>9225468
Because it isn't good or bad.

>>9225484
Slavery isn't good nor bad? Based on which morality system?

>>9225513
>there are multiple systems
lol

>>9225518
Is the islamic system the same as the christian system?

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>>9225513
>Morality
>Just spook me up senpai

>>9225094
How did something simple and easy as this turn out to be misinterpreted, misappropriated, misapplied in a scale so massive? It reminds me of Pynchon's Inherent Vice almost and how hippie culture was hijacked by CIA to make it its own image.

Then the other question is why wasn't this strong enough to resist such a hostile takeover?

>>9217462

I'm not sure that's quite what happened.

Nietzche warned us of the nihilistic decadence we currently live in, and urged us toward creating culture that is positive as Christianity lost its sway.

We haven't made a good replacement culture. Our culture fucking sucks.

Doesn't mean Chrisitanity isn't dead or that it doesn't suck, either.

>>9226854
Not really related, but Frankurt school of thought warned about similar happening. The decay of past, the disrepsect for it, and the further decay of culture.

>>9224996
You have to immerse yourself.

Is it okay to like Nietzsche mainly because of how he taught me how to look at life? Nietzsche taught me to embrace struggle and hardship because they mold me into something else; they mold me into an individual that can handle the nature of being human and the nature of all. Nietzsche taught me how to tear up my views of good and evil so that I could look at challenge, struggle, strife, and hardship as what they are, not 'bad.' Nietzsche taught me to grow a spine and think for myself about anything and everything. Nietzsche taught me that 'okay' can be whatever the heck I want it to be. Nietzsche taught me to make my own 'okay' and to embrace it as my own.

You know what, never mind my original question. I have my own answer.

>>9225158
It's his starting ground. German philosophy is unthinkable without Kant's critique of Judgement, where Aesthetics isn't just an idle pastime but fundamental to human perception, culture, world-views, attitudes, morality, etc.

Nietzsche similarly is unthinkable without Richard Wagner. Just look at his operas, there's an entire religious, moral, aesthetic world in each one, listen to Tristan after knowing a little bit about Schopenhauer and Hegel and pay attention to the words, especially concerning the night and day, and then re-read any of Nietzsche's works. It changes everything and it's the absolutely fundamental and only way to follow Nietzsche without shallow reading him like >>9226854 >>9226949 and plenty others.

Reading an author as Promethean (in that he stole from Wagner's fire) and influenced as Nietzsche without understanding where he was first inspired is just to end up with all these dumb platitudes against 'decadence' and 'life-denying' (on this, theme just look at Tristan und Isolde, incidentally Nietzsche's explicit favourite piece of music:

THE VOICE OF BRANGAENE
(as before)
Beware!
Beware!
Night soon gives way to Day.

TRISTAN
Shall I listen?

ISOLDE
Let me die!

TRISTAN
Must I wake?

ISOLDE
Never waken!

TRISTAN
Shall Day
still waken Tristan?

ISOLDE
Let Day
give way to Death!

TRISTAN
Have we thus defied
Day's menace?

ISOLDE
(in growing rapture)
Ever to flee its tricks?

TRISTAN
Did its dawning
never affright us?

ISOLDE
May our Night endure for ever!

BOTH
O ew'ge Nacht, O eternal Night
süsse Nacht! Sweetest Night
Hehr erhabne sublime glory
Liebesnacht! Night of love

Or the wounded Tristan's words before dying:

O diese Sonne! Ah this Sun!
Ha, dieser Tag! Ha this Day!
Ha, dieser Wonne Ah this bliss'
sonnigster Tag! Brightest Day!

(And what light does that shed on Zarathustra's address to the sun?)

An ordinary reading of Nietzsche would condemn them both as denying the actual world and life in order to lay in blissful night and dreams and

ewig heim
in ungemessnen Räumen
übersel'ges Träumen.

And that's about as far as you can go with this pedestrian idea, and you're forced to the stupid conclusion that Nietzsche must have actually hated his favourite ever piece of art:

"Tristan and Isolde is the real opus metaphysicum of all art ... insatiable and sweet craving for the secrets of night and death ... it is overpowering in its simple grandeur"
Even after his break with Wagner: "Even now I am still in search of a work which exercises such a dangerous fascination, such a spine-tingling and blissful infinity as Tristan – I have sought in vain, in every art."

Nietzsche takes his entire Dionysian style from this. Every good scholar now realises that his true master and teacher was Wagner, hence his almost feverish polemics as attempts to seperate himself from his father.

>>9227081

BEIDE BOTH
namenlos Nameless
in Lieb' umfangen, In love surrounded
ganz uns selbst gegeben, given up to ourselves,
der Liebe nur zu leben! the Life only for love!

"What is done for love is done beyond good and evil." --- Nietzsche

>>9227081
Are there any films of Wagner that I could watch? I don't think I can watch any of his plays (for theater) since I live in nowhere with no theater.

I've seen Lang's version of Der Ring des Nibelungen

>>9227114
Yes there's good recordings of the Bayreuth performances. I like the Barenboim one.

>>9225158
Nietzsche doesn't 'have a philosophy'. This is the first misunderstanding.

>>9227147
what do you mean by this?

out of nothingness.