>The man who kills a man, kills a man. >The man who kills

fuck you faggot i'll kill myself if i want, what are you gonna do? kill me first?
lamoooooooooooooooooo

makes me wanna kill myself desu

any pro-suicide philosophy recs?

>>9094219
This is pretty dumb. Is all this guy's writing like this?

Is that Teddy Roosevelt's retarded twin brother?

>>9094219
Sounds like someone trying to rationalize the irrational view that suicide is immoral.

He comes off like a christian apologist.

What a load of shit.

>>9094273
>christian apologist
you better apologise for my braincell loss here bucko

>>9094247
Conspiracy Against the Human Race

>>9094273
>He comes off like a christian apologist.
You don't say...

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is ded

>>9094279
what about pro suicide that doesn't first assume life is not worth living?
pro suicide for suicide's own sake

Interesting read but fundamentally flawed.

>>9094262
>>9094273
>>9094275

I sincerely hate Chesterton as a thinker, with all of my being. I am happy that a purported posting of more of his stupidity seems to have spontaneously elicited a mixture of disgust and genuine disagreement from these multiple anons.

>>9094219

What a useless brain-fart of a passage.

>>9094363
>I sincerely hate Chesterton as a thinker,

>>9094287

Fanged Noumena?

>>9094219

But the man who kills a man also kills all men, but for that man.

Next.

OK, but what if I kill Chesterton instead of myself? Wouldn't that make the world a better place?

>>9094219
the question is
>if you could get off scott free for all of that, would you?

and thus, human nature has put this faggotry to an end.

wtf i love suicide now

>>9094219
>suicidal man is bad because he lacks the balls to see value in things that obviously have value
>implying a suicidal man can't possibly be suicidal because the filth of life blocks his eyes

I just said a load of bullshit and it still was a valid counter point.
I could spout a many points bearly thinking and any one of them could bring that particular quote down.
That's how easy it is to be nihilistic.
But I would rather live in a world were people would rather be idealistic than suicidal.

>>9094273
>Sounds like someone trying to rationalize the irrational view that suicide is immoral.
you owe the human race every day you could still breath

This is some reddit-tier logical fallacy shit going on, is it genuinely from him?

> But the suicide insults everything on earth by not stealing it. He defiles every flower by refusing to live for its sake. There is not a tiny creature in the cosmos at whom his death is not a sneer.
lmao as if those insults aren't justified

really, its a nice enough way to think, but hardly a very solid ethical argument or anything - I doubt its really even supposed to be.
the biggest stupidity is the assumption that no one's situation can really be so bad that there's no worthy flower to steal around

>>9094247
Jean Amery, Hand an sich legen (I don't know if it has been translated to English)
Emil Cioran obviously

>>9094247
Hume, On Suicide.

>>9094363
>I sincerely hate Chesterton as a thinker, with all of my being.

Why? I enjoyed reading Orthodoxy, even though I didn't agree with much of it.

The dude is butthurt because people kill themselves instead of suffering on this hellish planet.
It's rare to discover such petty people.

>>9094219
shit pleb argument desu

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Never forget.

I know absolutely nothing about Chesterton, but I liked what OP posted.

>>9094273
>He comes off like a christian apologist.

Surely you could not be this sincerely dumb.

>>9094287
Ippolit's parts in The Idiot, Kirilov's in Demons.

>>9094219
absolutely retarded.

All of Chesterton's arguments are like this, every last one. It's pure sophistry.

>>9094538
For the suicidal, the world dies because it it not worth living, not only because it disappears. When you kill a man, you're not taking away his will to live, which would be killing his world.

>>9094219
Check it out.
>If a man punches a man, he punches a man. But if a man punches himself, he punches all men, for he is punching an idea of a man.

The fact that most of /lit/ shits on Chesterton while praising the likes of edgy prepubescent-minded such as Cioran should be enough to disregard any opinion most of /lit/ has on any major subject.

Also, OP's quote is not supposed to be a logical argument against suicide, but a literary one, and it does succeed greatly in doing that.

>>9094219
>suicide is bad because the suicidal person doesnt see value where i and others see value

even if he has a little flowery prose to dress it up, his argument is severely undercooked

>>9095956
>not a logical point, a literary one

facts > feels

Try the redpill, faggot. Or fuck off back to /r/books

>>9094864
Yeah, suicide isn't petty at all. It isn't the pettiest, most self-obsessed thing one can do.

>>9095956
>he's not trying to make ACTUAL sense, he's making FAKE sense.
Fucking really?

>>9095956
Chesterton spent a great deal of energy trying to be an eloquent aphorist in order to give the illusion of maturity of thought. Evidently he does fool some people

>>9095963
The division you make between this two categories is obnoxious at best.

Also, there can be much more truth in what you call "feels" (let's say, as in intuition) than in facts, because facts are not always true, or at least they're not transcendentally truth. Go read Husserl, Bergson, something of real relevance, and stop writing through memes only.

>>9095967
Well, to be fair, suicide is often pretty spontaneous.

Everything people are saying in this thread can be applied to anything Nietzsche wrote.

>>9095984
>Also, there can be much more truth in what you call "feels" (let's say, as in intuition) than in facts, because facts are not always true
>go read continental cucks

This is what the brainwashing of liberalism does to a mind?

No thanks, I'll stick with the redpill and truth.

>>9095992
Fucking hell, am I being baited or are you really impossible to have a conversation with?

The state of /lit/ these days, goddamnit.

>>9095995
>reasoning with person who uses the word 'redpill' in every post

>>9094219
He's right, you know (evidenced further by the fact that no one ITT has come up with a valid counter argument)

>>9095995
Facts are facts, retard.

No amount of emotion is going to change that. That's what women and liberals won't accept.

>>9095969
see >>9095984

Chesterton's quote makes sense in a mythological manner. There are ways to disrupt the monolitic conventions of Logic (that ultimately only lead to itself), y'know?

>>9095991
Exactly. I guess it's just the Great Flock of Poltards affecting our general debate-level.

>>9095967
>suicide
You destroy the body that belongs to you.
>preventing suicide
You force your will on other people like a tyrant.

>>9096022
>everyone is completely atomized
>people are not linked to others through nets of relationships and institutions that coform as the human community

>>9094560
Are you saying he should commit suicide?

>>9096032
>Implying perceived links are more real than djinn or aliens.

>>9096052
I know you're joking, but anyone who doesn't think family or sense of community matters is underaged and should not be using 4chan.

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>>9096067
>Anyone who doesn't share my political beliefs, should be sent to gulags.

>>9096067
>muh community
>muh family

Stop thinking with your feels, sweety, and grow up

>>9094560
>breath
kek

>>9096084
Don't bully him, it's not his fault he's illiterate.

>>9096080
>thinking what I said is even thinly political somehow

>>9096067
>>9096083
Yeah, grow up man, live as a NEET, listen to analyticals, kill your parents.

>>9096089
>comma splice

>>9096097
This way of thinking leads to authoritarianism.

>>9094563
>logical fallacy
Why is a redditor mocking Reddit on reddit2.0?

>>9094219
>it insults all women
so now suicide is misogynistic. fucking libcucks

He has a point though.

>>9094864
If you reject the redemptive power of suffering then you are a immoral feygele who doesn't lift

ITT /r9k/ leaking into /lit/

>>9094542

Wow /lit/ is dumb

>>9096297
A delusion protestants share. And what a coincidence, it serves the rich by having the poor slave their lives away without complaining, revolting or removing themselves from the system.

why are people still interested in a sophist that died a hundred years ago, cant think your own thoughts and ideas?

>>9096326
I guess we shouldn't read anything

>>9096327

i guess we should read everything

>>9094224
first good post best post

>>9095995
you're not supposed to feed (You)s to people pretending to be /pol/

I suspect it's only 2 people, one does it incredibly obviously almost out of anger, the other just wants (You)s

>>9094219
That's just a point of view.

>>9094219

I wonder if that is what caused Borges to write that poem on suicide

>Rape (symbolically considered) is the highest compliment of beauty

>>9094219
Prose is okay. Content is so dumb.

>>9094219
I find funny how there's so much disgust to this quote in /lit/.

To be honest, suicide is an egoistic act. And it is an egoistic act born from weakness. The man who does suicide would be a tyrant if he wasn't so weak.

>>9096727
>the from weakness meme

>>9096727
>a site full of shutins who probably consider suicide on the regular get pissy when it is called out for the pussy act that it truly is
A true mistery

>>9096774
>mistery
get the noose ready bucko

>>9096323
>protestants
This was Doestoevsky, an Orthodox, entire theme: the redemptive power of suffering.

Oh, come on.
This is just silly.
I feel like the writer is trying too hard to give a dark and poetic meaning to suicide beyond someone killing himself/herself, but I feel like the writer's attempt failed.
This would only be true if the entire world revolved around one person, and that person committed suicide, but since the world doesn't revolve around one person, this supposed "deep view of suicide" is rubbish.

Suicide is only a "crime" (if we can even label it that) against the loved ones of the person who committed suicide.

What a self-centered and arrogant view of the world.

The only thing here that makes me want to fly away in fury is his writing.

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>>9094219
>wanting to be malignantly useless

>>9094219
People are traumatized and made to feel worthless because of negligent, ignorant parents and uncivilized friends.
It takes a lot of pain to take someone to suicide.
Can many of you spell compassion? Have any of you heard of this word?

>>9096841
Same Jewish god, same feudal society.

>>9096795
I'm on my phone; no noose for me today

>>9096616
Borges loved Chesterton, so maybe.

>>9096887
So it's more of a Christian thing than strictly Protestant, is what you're saying.

>>9096866
Suffering is not just important, it is crucial. We need to suffer, that's what life is all about, actually. It's not a matter of compassion, in this case.

>>9096974
To what end?

>>9096970
Judaic religion thing.

>>9096067
your a virgin without a family tho

>>9097046
Sure, buddy.

>>9097005
To live life to its full extent. Loving and suffering. Feeling the deepest shit we can. What else would be the purpose?

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>>9097067
>purpose

Anon, I have some news for you...

>>9097084
>Ligotti
Well, there's been a whole bunch of people discussing the problem of meaning and its overcoming before him and with better results. Dostoevsky, Kierkegaard, Gabriel Marcel, Julián Marías, even Nietzsche itself.

>>9097111
That's what you tell yourself. But the real answer is that it's obviously your programming. And you just lack the constitution for suicide.

>>9097309
>literally believing a depressed author of horror fiction over philosophers and so on

I think Ligotti makes some good points but even he, himself, admits right in the beginning that this is a matter of temperament and gut feeling. Telling someone else to believe Ligotti is just as silly as telling Ligotti to be more positive.

>>9097067
You are spooked to shit

>>9094219
What a load of shite

>>9094247
Most Stoic works

>>9094262
Yes. Chesterton is the ultimate comfy Christian apologist. Every line he writes is shaped like the condescending pitying sneer at all poor deluded non-Xtians. He's sweet, but none of his shit makes much more sense than that foolishness: it sounds great, but the core content is nothing but a silly opinion.

>>9097671
thanks

>>9096856
>>9097084
Ligotti rehashes old, tired, refuted arguments and spruces them up with spooky imagery
he isn't taken seriously because he isn't serious, your tastes are horrible

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>>9094219
Gilbert was a fucking genius, not many on /lit/ are capable of appreciating him.

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>>9096683
Mfw I think this guy is right

>>9097980
Such a fantastic poet. Not a bad thinker, either.

Also smart enough to see through politics.

I suppose he's right, but where he runs afoul is in saying that even such a heinous crime as that warrants eternal punishment (which is, I would assume, his line, given that he's a Catholic). I have a hard time appreciating that passage, for all its magniloquence, because I know it is a justification for his own metaphysical viciousness. I suppose the main reason I am opposed to suicide is because I prefer a great work of contemptus mundi to the vulgar fact of a person hanging from a tree: it would be a shame if the world had been denied Verlaine's "L'Angoisse," for instance, because he had taken his own anguish too literally. But not everybody can be Verlaine, and I cannot tolerate the idea that whoever was not able to refine their world-weariness into a work of art deserves eternal damnation.

Meh, couldn't get beyond the first ten words. Pretty embarrassing.

>>9094219
Wow - brilliant. Seriously.

>>9094262
>>9097700

>opinion

It isn't an opinion at all. You guys really need to study symbolism - this is a straightforward analysis pointing directly at the obvious:

For the committers of suicide, there is nothing they value highly enough to stay in this world.

Now this may change under specific circumstances, such as a samurai committing seppuku (and even then there will be many cases where this is still applicable), but he isn't speaking about suicides committed out of some sense of propriety or duty, he's commenting on the existential angst which had begun to plague Western civilization.

>>9094273
Suicide is immoral.

That is obvious and easy to argue.

Morality deals specifically with the ethical treatment of living beings - both interpersonally and intrapersonally.

Suicide is the annihilation of a life, and, as Chesterton is pointing out, an act of escape from all living things - an act which suggests a disgust, loathing, or, at best, a distaste for life and living.

It is incredibly, obviously, immoral.

>>9094553
No, you couldn't. Your ""counterpoint"" didn't even touch on the obvious heart of the matter. In fact, your ending point completely glazed over it.

The act of suicide is a rejection of the world of the living, and therefore, all life.

The motivations which drive a person to commit the act are irrelevant to what Chesterton is discussing. He is approaching this on the symbolic, and therefore, more objective (though still subjective) level.

>>9094864
>petty

Learn what the words you use mean, children.

>>9094219
this quote is a retarded hack

ITT people without enough empathy to conceive why someone would commit suicide

>>9096303
The worst thread on this site in months. Jesus Christ

>>9096774
As a shutin who considers suicide all the time, I've learned to hate my suicidal idealation. If you think suicidal urges should be listened to and you're still alive you're a Hypocrite. The people on this thread need to accept that he is right, or kill themselves. You're not going to logic your way out of suicide without subjective truths. Either accept the subjectively and live or reject it and kill yourself. Otherwise you're a weak person who can't follow through their own ideas.

>>9098530
*sigh* You're missing the point.

See >>9098492

Also, a quote cannot be a retarded hack.

>>9097980
Sadly, it seems you are right. Not many on /lit/ can.

I see so many criticisms of his critique, but not a single one provides an alternate, superior symbolic analysis of suicide.

>>9094836
>Cioran
Not realizing all his philosophy boils down to not killing oneself.
SHAME

Chesterton is empty worldplay. A suicide only kills himself. From a Christian perspective it is wrong because we are forbidden to murder. Exaggerating it in the way he has is just sophistry.

>>9097700
>theology
>opinion

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>>9098530
I always see this rebuttal, it's retarded, he's not trying to be mean or anything, it's a fucking observation made on the nature of suicide. Are you fucking telling me I should support a suicidal person? I understand the pain involved, I've been there, but that doesn't change the nature of suicide or make it more acceptable or less wrong.
So you want to kill yourself because the simple act of existing causes you great pain and is directly repugnant to you, to the point where you see no future for yourself and cannot conceive of recovering or living any kind of normal or happy life. Here's what's wrong with that: The idea that suicide is desirable is fallacious and so by desiring it you in principle nullify everything that made you desire it in the first place. Death is not just the absence of life, it is not an end to pain. An end to pain is desirable in as much as what remains is not pain, but death removes the pain as well as that which would remain which is not pain. And so death destroys even the things which people are attempting to escape by virtue of death destroying it. Therefor both to desire death or to willingly conduct actions with death as their end, are an empirical error, and so to succeed in the act of dying on purpose makes you a poorer fool than the one who died by accident, you become just a sacrifice to stupidity.
So it is better to suffer, no matter what terrible torture awaits you, there is no reason to die, you are already dying anyway, second by second. If you have to spend your entire life balled up in a corner tearing your own hair out then so be it.
If you suffer then you suffer for a reason, the cause of your suffering is not life, you aren't even alive. You fear the possibility of life, you have this fear because you love life, the pain comes from being in an in-between state of not fully alive nor dead, of neither succeeding nor giving up. If you succeeded you would be happy, if you gave up you would at least be numb, but because your hope lives on in you despite this it becomes humiliating and awful.

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>>9094219
Pretty fucking surreal how something so profound just rolls off these dudes like semen rolls off your moms back.
Oh but mention foucault and everybody jumps for joy. I think I'm gonna fucking puke desu.

>>9098726
There's nothing profound about it. It's just an emotional appeal.

>>9098696
It went right over your head.

Also, that is not the correct use of sophistry.

Can you guys seriously stop using words you don't understand?

>>9098749
>emotional appeal isn't profound
Fuck off.

>>9098726
i lol'ed

>>9098749
I will a-peel the skin off your face. You think everything that uses imprecise language is spooks or sensationalism, you have no poetical intelligence and no penis, just reading your posts makes me want to find you and kill you in your sleep like the good Catholic patron I am. Don't think your family will get off easy, oh wait, NEET, I forgot XD

>>9094849

Because Chesterton combines a very stupid sentimentality with a defense of a stupid religion.

>>9098780
t. hatman

>>9098749
It is not merely an emotional appeal. It is exactly what he said it is - a symbolic analysis of an issue of ethics - which is an appeal to both the reasonable (logos) and the ethical (ethos).

Is the presentation of this ethological appeal designed to also touch the audience on a emotional (pathos) level? Yes.

Does that make it "just emotional?" No.

Great rhetoricians present their arguments on multiple levels simultaneously.

>>9098780
>opinions

Present counter arguments children, not opinons.

If you disagree with Chesterton's symbolic analysis of suicide, you must do so on the basis of a superior symbolic analysis - otherwise it is you who is acting emotionally and your opinions are superfluous.

>>9094219
what a fucking jerk off. 'suicide is worse than murder or rape'. what a bunch of moralistic dribble

>>9098827
waaaah vagina ethics ;c

>>9098827
We got another one over here~!

>>9098830
>>9098831
Oh I see, he was just pretending to be retarded.

>>9098393

>tfw all the mitrefag polemicists in this thread won't respond to me because they know they would be embarassed by my superior sensibility

Debate me IRL faggots see what happens. I bet you haven't even read Verlaine.

>>9098830
>>9098831
what kind of idiot thinks that killing yourself is even in the same ballpark murdering someone else.

>>9098842
anybody that hasn't fallen for my humanist me-mes must be stupid!

>>9098846
lol you've just fallen dumbass catholic propaganda instead

>>9098855
>propaganda
epic me-me.

>>9098846

Basically yes. Whosoever will refuse to exalt Man over all other things must either know very little or feel very little, or both.

>>9098861
t. hatman

Humanity's only value comes from God's love of it. You know nothing and feel nothing without God. The one without God is no better than any another animal projecting its conceptions of order onto an orderless universe.

>>9098883

>projecting its conceptions of order onto an orderless universe

Indeed, but that is the most glorious thing imaginable. The greatest words ever dropt from any lip, divine or human (for they are the same), are Non serviam, and after these, Carpe diem cum ager diebus sit malus iniquusque.

>>9095956
>Also, OP's quote is not supposed to be a logical argument against suicide, but a literary one, and it does succeed greatly in doing that.
false. all he says is that it is worth it to be a hedonist and if you cannot succeed at hedonism, then be glad to go through hardship ''because it makes you a man''. And his response is just ''you hurt my feeling by refusing a world that I like''

>>9098827
It went right over your head.

>>9098898

>tfw mitrefags are too stupid and hypocritical to learn even basic Latin

Cultus vester ne se quidem scit.

>>9098806

This post is ironic on multiple levels as it is Chesterton who is the emotional and superfluous child. Thus, the insistence upon a perceived opponent to be the one to be more the adult, when that had obviously already been going on to begin with, is the more absurd. You should instead see about your false Baby Huey, your false apologist, if you are concerned about logos.

But let's indulge you to a point - without dignifying exactly whatever you have in mind by "symbolic analysis" apart from the most general terms, so as not to accept whatever frame you might try. Let's instead reject your frame and simply offer a little obvious detail, the real point of which is to reject Chesterton and a Christian view of life in general, which is a good project.

Assume for discussion that the OP's quote is a legit Chesterton quote, which would then seem to be pregnant with the usual regrettable Christian ideas. Murder is one thing; suicide worse. Why is suicide worse? Because the suicide rejects all, and profanes all, criming against all in the suicide. Fuck Everything. Boo hoo the suicide, nowhere here does (admittedly) the century-old discourse have occasion to admit of mental illness, which was of course even approximately understood back then; no, for Chesterton, this particular Suicide must be most properly some Fully Active, Engaged Adult. A man who can rightly and consciously say Non Serviam. This is what Chesterton has in mind, as his example par excellance. But of course, it isn't usually thus.

The worst of Chesterton's sentimentality is on display with, of all things, a turgid comparison of the suicide with the flowers, the prettiest, dumbest, least comforting, least relevant, and simplest /English/ image available: "He defiles every flower by refusing to live for its sake." Whoop-de-doo, faggot. Try living with severe chronic pain and get back to me about the posies.

Chesterton's error here is that he is obliged by his religion to make suicide a priori an offence to creation, which precludes him from conceiving of the possibility of its palliative, welcoming, pain-relieving effects. It is of course difficult for an adherent of a false religion to conceive that an act which induces eternal pain (it doesn't) might instead offer pain relief and really isn't so cosmically important as he is obliged to pretend that it is. These are the multiple stupidities of Chesterton, and I shall never tire of talking about them.

>>9094219
He sounds like he's trying to work through the suicide of someone close to him.

>>9095016
Anon, if your post was worth remembering you wouldn't have to personally post every time Chesterton was mentioned. I'd tell you to kill yourself but that would be denying you the chance to better yourself and denying the world the chance to enjoy a better you. Become a Catholic.

>>9099318

I am the author of the post that that above poster had cited. I can verify that that poster is not me, and I am gratified that someone else is repeating my ideas about Chesterton.

Fuck the Roman Catholic church and fuck the holy spirit in particular.

>>9099298
>mental illness
>this particular suicide

You've missed the point. He has superseded the level of subjectivity you are on. Symbolic analysis takes place at a higher level of objectivity than that. To phrase it more simply, he is looking at suicide from a larger perspective than you - and most of the people in this thread.

You still haven't provided an analysis of suicide which would trump, or rival, his either.

You have attempted (and failed at) critiquing Chesterton's analysis, and thrown in a lot of unsupported opinions and emotional appeals (which weren't actually relevant - though I'm sure you thought they were).

Most of your ""rebuttal"" is ad hominem, irrelevant data, and outright dismissals (not to be confused with a cogent argument) of his reasoning.

Come back when you learn what an analysis is.

>>9098444
>he's commenting on the existential angst which had begun to plague Western civilization.
But he doesn't even mention Western civilization. You're just projecting your own feelings onto his work.

>>9099329
This is the kind of irrational, intolerant vitriol that makes people have no respect for you and those like you.

>>9099366
>feelings

Haha, no. Not at all actually. What is actually happening is you are forgetting to consider four very important factors.

1. Where is this written?
2. What time period is this written in?
3. Who is his audience?
4. What is the cultural milieu in which the author was fashioned.

Likewise, if you consider other works written by the author and their subject matter it becomes obvious that his concern is the psychological, philosophic, and spiritual climate of the West.

>>9099298
That could have been one sentence. Please consider quitting your debate club

>>9099298
thoughtful post

>>9099362
mad post

>>9099402
Did you hear that? It is the sound of the argument flying right over your head.

>>9094219
what a fucking idiot.

>>9094262
>>9094273
>>9094275
>>9094292
>>9094363
>>9094376
>>9094553
>>9094563
>>9094569
>>9094864
>>9094871
>>9095928
>>9095951
>>9095962

Holy shit I'm not even a 1/3 of the way through the replies. I'm never coming to this site for literary advice again, most everyone here is no older than 25 and if they can not see the validity behind a respected mind, taking it a step further and saying that it's in fact stupid, then I'm confident that this board collectively gains the majority of the insight gained from reading books through their synopses and the interpretations made by others who have read the work. In sort, you people couldn't come up with a half better thought of your own inspiration even if you wanted to you fucking pseudo intellectual brats. Life's only going to get harder for you. No wonder you think his ideas valueless.

>>9096327
Dude you got fucking wrecked by >>9096332 lol. I feel shame for you, and this is over the internet.

>>9096855
Yikes

>>9098898
t. reddit
>>9099298
le christianity is bad because memes i read on lebbit

>>9096866
I am one of those people. If anything, I value all those things I was robbed of even more than most. I have no will to death and I care immensely for others and my own happiness. I can't wait to save up enough money to put myself through school so i can get a job in linguistics and travel the world to help and see all the people and places. Making friends in places that will feel like dreams later in life. And I can't wait to get married, have two kids, raise them the best I can in this crazy world so that they can perhaps change the world in a way that I couldn't. Give them the childhood and family I wish I could've had. Support their loves and hobbies and care for their young minds like I never got and wanted more than anything.

It's about how you decide to deal with your life. Suicide is weak, and it shuts in your mind from the rest of the world. And it's not all your fault, society today totally misrepresents the state of the individuals mind, forcing people to believe in the world around them through materialism and entertainment when the people would naturally believe in their world even without the song and dance. Stop dwelling on this "oh I'm shut into my own mind, you have no idea how I or someone else feels, death is my only muse and it's my choice". Everyone is shut in, life is lonely, and the only true solace to find while alive is in the fact that everyone around you, deep down, is just as shut in. And just as there are those who suffer so much more greatly than most, it is possibly that they just as well spend every minute of torture dreaming of the chance to feel the sun and air on their face and breathe in the fresh air. Dreaming of the chance to see their mother or father again if they haven't already died as their child was tortured. They may dream of their child or what their child might be like if they're to ever come out alive. It's just as possible that death couldn't farther from their mind even as it hovers just over their head.

>>9094845
I don't get the argument in this one. He seems to be saying that since GOD gave us the ability to commit suicide it means it is moral to do so. But wouldn't that mean murder is also moral?

>>9094542
>The man who kills a man, kills a man.

fucking retard

>>9100405
Hume is an idiot, what do you expect?

>>9098712
Most people know what loss of conciousness and dreamless sleep feels like, and if that's what they desire - permanently - then they're not wrong.

>>9100078

>a third of the thread calls out the bullshit in the OP

>some faggot storms off, never to return, because we're supposed to take someone seriously for no other reason than that their work has been around for about a century, he believing that we haven't looked at the thing from its relevant angles, and approached it on its own terms, because we're poor readers, or something. But that's exactly the point - most people on this board, like it or not, are fairly intelligent, have reading comprehension, know what Chesterton had in mind for himself - and we still reject it anyway, for the nonsense that it is. And this is what infuriates this faggot, never to return

Good.

>>9099367

Don't talk to me about reason. Go cover up some rapes.

>>9098905
>hedonism
You either have no idea what this world means or you have no idea what Christianity preaches, in which case you have no idea what any major Western concept means.

>>9096315
>>9100580

I just wanna kill Chesterton anons, why are you so harsh?

>>9094247
my twisted world

>>9099395
this

>>9100174
fuck me, you sure are boring

ITT: couple of Christfags assblast half of /lit/.

>>9100078
Oh, no, I get the concept of what he's saying, it's just retarded.
"killing the world" is a baby's idea and stops being even a little bit credible idea once you learn object permanence.

>>9099395
>>9100908

You're both wrong. My post benefitted from its length, specifically with a view to raw argumentation. Notice that the only substantive reply amounts to "I'm right because I'm on a higher level" (he isn't), with the rest being ad homs and the sniping at tone/style that you've done.

>>9100925

nope.

>>9100926
He's not saying it epistemologically you humoungous autist.

>>9100929
Are you the "6-part autobiography" Anon?

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ITT: We drool over Chesterton's profound misunderstanding of psychology as if it is sacred insight

Depression is anger turned upon the self. Suicide is the completion of that rage, i.e. suicide is the victory of your rage over you. To frame it as a "crime" or "sin" (they are different words for the same thing) against "everything" displays Chesterton exactly as what we all know him to be: a man who for all his powers of perception and wordplay could not work up a thimbleful of empathy

>>9100951
>implying that's what I meant
>implying that's in anyway redeeming

>>9100967
>I read only one relevant book in my entire lifespam and cant stop repeating its main points
lemme guess, anti-oedipus?

>>9100971
>object permanence
>not epistemological
If you say so. Keep rolling on that damage control.

>>9101002
>I greentext strawmen as if they're valid arguments

As many have stated ITT, I don't find fault with Chesterton's syntax; the man was a master of syntax, comparable to Waugh in terms of ability. I find fault with the fact that he's a callous asshole who has patently never talked to a depressed person

>>9094219
What puerile garbage.

>>9096032
>enslave and bring others to anguish with those 'relationships'
>demand they live on in that state
jesus christ

are there really people this fucking selfish and unfeeling?

>>9101069
>selfish
>unfeeling

Pick one, uneigennutzigkiet praktiker

>>9094247
Artaud, On Suicide

>>9100865
Nope because this is also me >>9100174
and I love being vocal. So I'll enjoy typing out overly winded monologues and you can enjoy being ignorant

>>9100921
I'm sure you're riveting

>>9101770
If you want to give your children "what you wish you could have had" you will give them nothing; if you give them a dream, you'll give them nothing, because your dreams are nonsense, hence the word "Dream," which in all European languages derives from Proto-Germanic "draugmas," which literally means "deception."

If you were trying to bait people, you've succeeded.

>>9101843
What I wish I had was a parent who supported my interests instead of ridiculing me for mine.

Boy you sure are dumb. Or else you didn't read what I said before. In that case, boy you sure are ignorant.

>>9094219
>dude y not just b urself? teh wurld is kewl

>>9100174
>platitudes upon platitudes
legitimately a pathetic mind. you should euthanize yourself before society does it for you.

>>9100078
>i'm never coming to this site for literary advice again!!!11!

good, newfaggot. we don't want you here. OP is pure autism. on the level of "holy....."

>>9100967
The whole text is like the perception of a healthy man on a sick mind.
Can´t say I really blame him, since it´s difficult to find empathy for people who on first glance don´t seem to be lacking anything in particular, apart from some chemicals in their brain.
Nevertheless, despite his naive views on depression I can still dig what he wrote.

>>9099318
I liked that trip poster Constantine, so I think I'll become Orthodox instead.

>>9094550

That's what I thought too.

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>>9100174
>It's about how you decide to deal with your life.
From the sound of it you've made no decisions at all, you just live within the stream of convention and banality. It's no surprise anything so otherly as a rejection of life doesn't occur to you, you likely lack the creative capacity.

>>9099329
>fuck the holy spirit in particular.
Oh shit guys, he's a serious atheist and doesn't afraid of anything.

>>9100405
thats what you got from On Suicide?

>>9100078
just because some retards and faggots respect chesterton doesn't mean that he's not an absolute subhuman, I'm glad you're leaving

>>9101983
Just wait til you grow up kiddie

>>9101999
It was an expression. Just like "Gosh, you're so right".

>>9102102
Maybe he's a neo-pagan and doesn't believe in Christianity.

>>9102101
What do you think the world is? I'm genuinely worried for you because if what I described seems conventional and banal, then I'm sure you will genuinely consider suicide once in your life.
I know I have. But being that I didn't, I've come to appreciate life for the only thing it offers- the little things. Taking what I need and giving what I don't. I'm happy and I make the people around me happy. That's a pretty good life. I promise you'll be lucky to find that kind of happiness even after you realize what you're in for in life. But if you can uphold whatever delusions you hold faith in, then power to you buddy.

>>9098699
I'm sorry, did you think you just made a point? Chesterton's argument holds exactly as much water as any other religious person shitting on you for committing an act they consider an affront to their imaginary buddies. "The blazing stones of the Celestial City" my ass.

>>9101959
No, you miss the point. You believe that you "must support a child's interests," so you will seek to find your child's interest in everything your child does and so will say to them, "Do not do anything that does not interest you." This will cause them to rack their emotions, and constantly attempt to tease "Their Interest" out of everything they do.

Trust me, if you can't understand what I'm saying, just trust me. Supporting "your child's interests" is not supporting your child, I know this because I had parents who "supported my interests." Another term for this is emotional neglect

>>9100926
>object permanence
Not a real thing.
>>9100967
WAH DEPRESSION ANGER SEX
Nobody cares about modern psychology.
>thimbleful of empathy
wah im so depression feel bad for me
>>9102867
MOM FORCED ME TO GO TO CHURCH SO THERE IS NO GOD HAHA FUCKING BTFO

>>9102905
Why the fuck would I tell them that? Give them a curriculum, send them to school and give them guidelines and let them grow into what they like. Them I will support their hobbies and interests and regime what their strong at even if they don't believe they're interested in it. Because I've learned you sometimes think you hate something even though you're actually gifted at it.

>>9103267
"Psychology" in that sense means "how to relate to the psyche of others." I care as little for "modern psychology" as you do.

>being a dick

Thanks, Chesterton. Though I can't tell if you're projecting or if, like him, you've never actually talked to someone experiencing clinical depression. Probably the former.

>>9096323
By your logic the proles shouldn't revolt because that would require suffering (i.e. "struggle"). So instead of growing through their bad situation they should just off themselves, or at most become NEETs. Even Mao and Nietzsche are probably on GKC's side here.

FYI Catholics frequently complain about poverty (Burger reaction to Catholic Social Teaching is often "THAT'S STATISM"). Again, this isn't helped by offing one's self.

>>9103300
haha anybody i dont like is a dick please fit into my normative ethics for reasons

>>9096887
Yes that's why I called you a feygele and not a homosexual.

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>>9103282
>Them I will support their hobbies and interests and regime what their strong at even if they don't believe they're interested in it
>I will support their interests even if they don't believe they're interested in it
>I will support their interests even if they are not interested in their interests

You're actually mentally deficient. Do you even read what you post before you post it?

>>9103319
Yes. I understand your point of view and I'm purposely presenting you with the exact opposite.

>>9094219

I just want to take this opportunity to reflect and remark upon how wonderful it is that half the thread has openly hated and rejected the sentiments of G.K. Chesterton - on this point of suicide, there really is a value-consensus in contemporary life which is not only wholly un-Christian, but which really does have a better moral sense than Christianity itself (this doesn't always happen). It's a nice point about this particular issue to win points, but even I have to admit that godlessness leads to a dissipation.

But this is no credit to the apologists, and this is what they fail to understand. If human beings are unable to cope with the reality of the absence of a god, then this is not a point in favor of religious belief in a god; on the contrary, /it is a point against the weakness of human beings, who cannot cope with reality as they must and should, yet cannot. What we must endeavor towards is to be able to live without god, even if we cannot. And this because such course accords best with reality. Now give me evidence otherwise, and I will change my mind, but not before. And neither should you.

On balance, the suicide is less evil than the murder. This is the explicit refutation of the false central point of the OP. Because although each has the power to make the surviving group sad and is therefore to a similar extent regrettable, and to redound poorly through the generations, yet the suicide may be honestly undertaken for palliative, pain-relief effects, and also honors inviolable individual agency to be done, which is a good. Further, the suicide does not require a revenge which a murder does, which revenge or bad blood leads to lower group cohesion.

The suicide is less evil than the murder. Only Christian mystery can argue otherwise. It is the correct, un-Christian moral sensibility of the better half of the posters in this thread which have enabled us to see through Chesterton's sentimental bullshit.

>suicide is worse than being Hitler

Ok christfag, whatever.

>>9103795
What is hyperbole?

>>9100878
What? Lol. Irrational.

>>9104186
Not the person you responded to but are you able to formulate a complete sentence so everyone understands what you are talking about?

>>9104206
What I'm saying is that the part about suicide being worse than murder reeks of hyperbole and I doubt he is being sincere.
The message is simply that someone who is considering suicide is basically saying that all the positive aspects in their live don't outweigh the negative ones, which is kind of a slap in the face to the people around them.
Perhaps a bit of a naïve interpretation of depression on his part, but some people in this thread are writing the whole piece off for the wrong reasons I think.

>>9094219

Fucking sophistry

Is he the best Christian authors have to offer?

>>9103795
is anyone even reading this guy's posts? it's completely insufferable

>>9104356
yes. this is right.

>kill a man
>not only have you killed a man, but have killed all men as far as that man is concerned
>so killing a man is in fact worse (symbolically considered)

im a doing it right

>>9100078
>lul this is good gonna post on /lit/
>no one agrees
>REEEEEE

>>9105527
Probably not. Dante is probably the greatest Christian author ever. Chesterton's not bad, though.

>>9096856
Ligotti is so lame. Woah the world is so f*cking horrible. I'm so deep. Damn I'm so dark and true. Guy needs to have a good fuck and a drink and share a joke with a friend. What a loser.

>>9098726
I agree with you.

>>9094219
but when you kill a man you also kill all men, from that man's point of view

im serious

I'm 342llbs. I havent been outdoors fin 4 months. I whack off to hentai 4/5 times a day. THe hought of suicide is the ONLY thing keeping me alive. I know that thers a way out and it makes everything just a little easier to bear, so fuck Chesterton and Christian nonsense

>>9094363
You write like a Jew, so it's understandable that you despise a principled man.

I think GK Chesterson was just insecure about his suicidal thoughts.

>>9094247
Linkin Park: The Unauthorised Biography in Words and Pictures

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>>9094273
This guy gets it.

>>9107038

your appellation is interesting, in that I am no jew.

>>9094219
I was made perfectly clear on this by Vip. I still want to do it, though.

>>9103446
I seriously hope you never have children. Circular logic has nothing to do with "point of view." We aren't talking about what clouds look like.

If your child isn't interested in something, how can it be "one of their interests"?

>>9096323
>it serves the rich by having the poor slave their lives away without complaining, revolting or removing themselves from the system.
Being rich is not wrong. Poverty is not wrong. Revolting is wrong.

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>>9107225
>>9094273
>Irrational
I'm very glad that Atheism is a dying trend, and that your kind will soon be utterly extinct, and a byword for failure. You deserve nothing less than to be remembered by history as the culture-death disease that destroyed secular western liberalism.

And never in history has any disgusting, criminal idea more richly deserved a slow and painful death than secular liberalism. Soon the natural order shall reassert itself--and if you have any sense at all, you will hang yourself before it does, because even the lake of hellfire into which you will plunge headfirst would be preferable to the justice you would otherwise receive at the hands of the failful.

>>9105631

Plenty are reading. My ideas are being repeated, and one element of my Anti-Chestertonism has been spontaneously supported by a good half of the thread. People read the OP, and sniff it out for the bullshit that it is, regardless of whether one likes my prose stylings or not, or agrees with the rest of what I have to say.

"Insufferable" is what people say to me when they can't come correct to me about the substance of what I say, because I preclude them, every time. The point is never to be plesant. The point is to be right. And right I go on being, to this one's >>9099362 dismay, for example.

He still thinks he's right. He's not.

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>>9100078
Yeah yeah everybody gets it, a pampered fat-fuck wearing a cape can understand the suffering- and therefore thinks they have the right to judge- a person who, lets say, was horrifically abused as a minor; oppressed as an adult; and/or developed a debilitating mental disorder such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, causing them to take their life when the pain got the better of them. This hapless individual surely deserves eternal damnation: their symbolic sense was simply not developed enough; logic be damned, it's just atheist talk.

>>9100942
yep

>>9094219
Seriously, what did he mean by this?

>>9108031
"Nothing ventured, nothing gained."

>>9108013

Another good post. +

>>9108025

Nope. The jesus people have been getting it handed to them, and thrown back in their faces, in this thread, and from various quarters who outnumber and out-think them. But the way of these things is that the Christians can't just admit being wrong, so there's no expecting an admission from them, richly deserving though it is.

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>>9094219
But is a man's beliefs as responsible in the crime as the man who enacts them?

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>>9100078
This. ITT 0 arguments against OP, but much condescension.

>>9094219
really makes you think

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>>9104137
Yeah he's definitely trying to influence those 6 million jew genocide individuals.

>>9108082
why isn't condescension an argument?

>/lit/ managing to miss the point again
Do you people even read books? Or do you just shit post about the Greeks and Romans and post your shelves?

>>9108173
Why even ask questions when the answers are so obvious.

>>9094219
Thanks for posting this OP.

>>9107924
>Atheism is a dying trend
I've got some bad news for you comrade.

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>>9094219
>Suicide is the ultimate fuck you to this horseshit world.

Bro, don't give me yet more reasons to do it, come on man. Delete this.

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>>9107924
>Atheism is a dying trend

Because people are waking up to the fact that they meant to actually label themselves Agnostic, recognizing that they can't prove that there is no god any more than they can prove that there *is* one.

>>9108267

The birth of every infant produces immediately a literal atheist, who is only cajoled away from this natural birth-state through further development and enculturation.

>>9106215
>Nobody is refuting this

Really activates my almonds

Chesterton went to hell.

>>9108552
So he did. I shan't make his acquaintance.

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>>9108552
As do all Catholics with the exception of Flim-Flam.

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>>9094219

>tfw you realize you are not a mere mortal but a god of destruction and in the blink of an eye can make this entire world disappear

almost makes you want to live

>>9095951
Are you self aware?

>>9098842
I do.
t. Considers suicide daily

>>9102048
>lacking anything in particular, apart from some chemicals in their brain
If that's the case, I am in the moral right to hate. But that implies that hate is authentic and not merely chemicals in my brain.

>>9094836
>Emil Cioran
really? I thought reading him had the opposite effect.

>>9106215
It was pointed out earlier. But I'll help a man in need.

You do not deny his dreams in the same level if you merely murder him. You can not make him disregard everything dear to him.

Is that OP picture from Saturday Night Live or something? No way anyone would feel OK to look like that.

>>9108144
Basically that's not presenting reasons for a conclusion you've reached. No one is being persuaded with it. This thread make me think many are < 18.

I always knew /lit/ was full of naive underage triggered faggot Reddit-tier trash

>>9109952
Right. /lit/ has always sucked in one way or another but at least before there weren't threads as fucking retarded as this. And people knew who Chesterton was and why he is respected.

>>9106391
You misunderstood him totally if you think that is his message. His main point is that irreproachable argumentation is impossible or a farce mainly because of people like you.

>>9108013
He's not so much damning the practice of suicide as he is a particular mindset behind suicide- the escapist. Not the man ridding the world of himself but the man ridding himself of the world. The man who says 'fuck this place' and 'fuck those people' or 'fuck this shit'

Last word - the people who disagreed with the OP won the argument. The Christians and Chesterton apologists lost this thread.

>>9099374
Nihilism is not new. Suicide is not new. Malaise is not new.

I'm gonna ignore the shit posting in this thread.
I think it's a neat argument Chester has that is well observed from someone who already buys into existential significance to a degree. Taken out of context it could be appreciated from a theological view that is not necessarily deistic. I shouldn't have to mention there are other brands of existentialism which value life, that aren't Christianity. ("/lit/") All the edgy arguments in this thread seem to hinge around that not being the case. In my opinion the people who are denying any merit in this piece are probably reductionist, realist (((internet nihilism))), fags. A lot of the people arguing from the other camp might be Christian apologists but they're not coming off anywhere near as butthurt as you edge lords.
tl;dr It's an interesting, if redundant passage

>>9112279

This is just you falsely play-acting at being an adult, trying to rise-above, when this is misguided because the OP, taken on its own merits, and viewed from all angles, still and remains, just plain stupid. The gratification of this thread is that so many people have spontaneously rejected the substance of what the OP says, whatever angle may be put on it. The sentiment expressed in the OP is wrong in every relevant sense where truth/rightness/wrongness might be judged, even in the squishier, more rhetorical territory that you suggest. /Because it isn't even true that a certain contempt for, and wish to escape, the world, is somehow substantively wrong or depraved or abnormal/. After all, the desire for flight from the world is a common psychological theme in /religion itself/, Christianity among the relevant examples.

You also sneer at your hated reductionists, internet nihilists, again in an effort to "rise-above". It fails, and you just come off mawkish.

>>9112316
it's not wrong from all angles and several people have tried to explain this to you. My entire post is stating that I don't view this as absolute justification against suicide as you've stubbornly and conveniently alleged to posters time and time again. I am viewing it rhetorically; considering the best arguments you have against it are rhetorical suggestions anyway
"well what if you were born a retard with no legs you'd be right killing yourself then" You don't have to be a pampered christian to appreciate a passage highlighting an unfettered appreciation for life. Take a second look at OP's post
"I don't agree with everything Chesterton says..."
Your arguments keep focusing on being an apologist for suicidal people rather than a justification for why you I or OP should or shouldn't. I'm trying to be condescending in mentioning it huh? good KYS

>>9100832
Yes they are and I explained in good detail why.
A dreamless sleep derives its content from duration, that is, it seems as something only after you awaken from it.
When you don't awaken there is no content, though truthfully many cognitive functions are active during sleep, which doesn't help your argument since those functions may provide some kind of pre-cognitive spatial awareness which would not be present in death.
In any case, it doesn't matter even if you know what death itself is like. The argument is that what you initially desire in death death itself pre-emptively removes. Since death is eternal and life temporal it wipes out before and after, and everything takes on one singular uniform quality, or lack thereof.
I'm not saying people who commit suicide are immoral, but I will say they're stupid, or rather not that the act itself is stupid, and to commit a stupid act is to be stupid in so far as you commit to it, and since being is convertible with good, stupidity is its own immorality.

>>9098712
>>9094275
The duality of man.

>>9112468

Are you quite sure that you know exactly which posts are mine, and which are not? Admittedly, I am pretty easily identified in this thread, but a self-described college professor recently lost an argument to me on /lit/ for want of having read the thread of my thought.

Yes, they have tried to explain it to me. They have tried to do so in terms of religion, and in terms of "symbolic analysis", and in terms of rhetoric, and so on. They have all been wrong. That is the point. They are not "helping" me, or themselves fully appreciating the text of the OP, or anything of the kind. They are simply wrong, and I, and the dozens of posts in this thread which are not mine, are simply right. That is the point.

>>9094219
>The thief is satisfied with diamonds; but the suicide is not: that is his crime. He cannot be bribed, even by the blazing stones of the Celestial City.

FUCKING
JUST

>>9112559
>Are you quite sure that you know exactly which posts are mine, and which are not?
>
>I am pretty easily identified in this thread

>Yes, they have tried to explain it to me. They have tried to do so in terms of religion, and in terms of "symbolic analysis", and in terms of rhetoric, and so on. They have all been wrong.
wrong
>They are not "helping" me
stop projecting to justify suicidal and nihilistic thoughts. Nobody has tried to help you, even if it becomes increasingly obvious that you need just that.

>>9108342
>development and enculturation
*indoctrination, FTFY

>Premise 1: When you kill yourself you cease to exist and thus you become non-existent
>Premise 2: Non-existent entities have no moral obligations
>Conclusion: People have no moral obligations after suicide and so suicide is neither good or bad

>>9094219
Chesterton is the most un-read god of literature I can think of. His wit is 100x more biting than Oscar Wilde

Last word: the people who disliked and criticized the OP won the argument. The people supporting and defending the language of the OP, lost the argument. Suicide is a less depraved act than murder. We win.