>People at school bully me for following Tolstoy's non-resistance

>>9007242
Having unpopular opinions sucks. Having unpopular opinions which fly in the face of generally accepted realities, such as allowing yourself to be murdered, means you'll have a long, arduous and ultimately fulfilling life.

>>9007250
What's the point in living life with such principles if it cannot be accepted by the masses?

How do I reconcile my ethics with my desire to Rule over men???!?!

>>9007242
Just explain using easily-visualized examples. "If someone were to hit me and I hit them back, then a fight starts. Is someone hit me and I run away, then they feel that they have power over me. If someone hits me and I just look at them and ask them in a serious tone of voice why they hit me if I did nothing wrong, then they start thinking about why they hit people. And once they think about why they hit people, they're less likely to do it again."

>>9007242
>white people
baka

How would Tolstoy react if somebody barged into his house and started raping his wife?

>>9007278
He died after getting on a train and leaving his wife in the dead of night.

So I don't think he would have minded...

>>9007242
Non resistance is not a virture if you are to weak to resist the strong OP, its just you dressing up your inability to act as a virtue.

>I believe it is in fact more brave to allowed yourself to be murdered."

You should seriously consider reading some Stirner

>>9007335
I have already read The Ego and Its Own and the only ideas which interested me were The Union of Egoists.

I have already gone through my Nietzschean phase, I am no longer interested in such existentialist philosophy or self-related virtues.

>>9007335
Non-resistance can be a pragmatic solution to violence and oppression if it's coupled with a well-articulated rebuke of those causing the violence. See>>9007263

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>>9007242
You ARE a fag and weak. Forget that Russian pussy and read some stuff written by a real man instead:

>"...I was not making fun of you personally; I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea -- a practice I shall always follow. Anyone who clings to the historically untrue and thoroughly immoral doctrine that violence never settles anything I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedoms."

>>9007242
Only seriously damaged people think that letting yourself be killed it something admirable. Flee or fight, but don't just sit there and take it like some wierdo masochist

>>9007350
>the human race can't evolve

>>9007358
It's not masochism.

It is the principles of Christ put into full practice.

>>9007263
>If someone hits me and I just look at them and ask them in a serious tone of voice why they hit me if I did nothing wrong, then they start thinking about why they hit people.
pfffffffffffft

>>9007370
It literally worked for Martin Luther King

>>9007263
>If someone hits me and I just look at them and ask them in a serious tone of voice why they hit me if I did nothing wrong, then they start thinking about why they hit people
Most people who hit other people for no reason are really dumb so this doesn't have a very great chance of happening.
OP, you just have to come over to France. Here we welcome terrorists, and one guy who got his wife killed even told they they "wouldn't get his hatred" and that they were "the ambassadors of destiny". (I have no intentions of turning this into a discussions about refugees, please don't.)
So yeah if you want to be a doormat, it will be accepted as an extremely courageous and mature decision here.

>>9007370
As if someone with even an shred of intelligence would not find this powerful if the punch genuinely seemed to do no psychological harm.

>>9007340
>I have already read The Ego and Its Own and the only ideas which interested me were The Union of Egoists.

Ok, it just seemed like your responses were based on your loyalty to spooks such as bravery or nonviolence rather than an expression of your unique interests.

>>9007341
Its not pragmatic when it is a dogmatic stance you adopt regardless of the situation which is that a Tolstoyan stance entails.

Its the same as those people who take the "never back down" approach - yes being assertive and violent can be a pragmatic solution to violence and oppression if its coupled with restraint and thoughtful reflection however to use it dogmatically in all cases is absurd.

>>9007242
You know verbal violence is a type of violence. You're not very good at this, are you.

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>>9007242
l2game theory faggot. In the iterated prisoner's dilemma, CooperateBot loses.

>>9007387
It was an illustrative example. My point is that violence and oppression end when non-resistance is combined with a message that allows the oppressor to understand the moral consequences of his violence. Think Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. There are circumstances where violence is necessary in order to save lives, but that's dealing with the symptom rather than the virus itself.

>>9007242
Its funny the Morori people practiced this and ended up getting raped, enslaved and literally eaten by a handful of Maori

>A hui or council of Moriori elders was convened at the settlement called Te Awapatiki. Despite knowing of the Māori predilection for killing and eating the conquered, and despite the admonition by some of the elder chiefs that the principle of Nunuku was not appropriate now, two chiefs — Tapata and Torea — declared that "the law of Nunuku was not a strategy for survival, to be varied as conditions changed; it was a moral imperative."[13] A Moriori survivor recalled : "[The Maori] commenced to kill us like sheep.... [We] were terrified, fled to the bush, concealed ourselves in holes underground, and in any place to escape our enemies. It was of no avail; we were discovered and killed - men, women and children indiscriminately." A Māori conqueror explained, "We took possession... in accordance with our customs and we caught all the people. Not one escaped....." [19] The invaders ritually killed some 10% of the population, a ritual that included staking out women and children on the beach and leaving them to die in great pain over several days. The Māori invaders forbade the speaking of the Moriori language. They forced Moriori to desecrate their sacred sites by urinating and defecating on them.[20]

But hey at least they had the moral highground right? Who needs life when you can feel more righteous as you watch your wife get tortured on a beach for days.

>>9007406
>Its not pragmatic when it is a dogmatic stance you adopt regardless of the situation which is that a Tolstoyan stance entails.
Didn't say it was. I'm just arguing that the concept of non-resistance isn't ridiculous in and of itself. There are circumstances where it's not only necessary, but preferred.

>>9007376
No, what worked for King was an implicit threat of organized violence that his followers presented.

>>9007444
>I'm just arguing that the concept of non-resistance isn't ridiculous in and of itself

Read the OP hes against violence fullstop

>>9007446
That's a leftist, pro-Malcolm X reinterpretation of history. Black people have been rebelling for centuries prior to the civil rights movement. It wasn't until the movement that attitudes began to shift.

No wonder we've got so many cucks if they're teaching this Tolstoy shit in schools

>>9007406
>Ok, it just seemed like your responses were based on your loyalty to spooks

Again, I do not accept your axioms.

What don't you understand about that?

>>9007434
>Reading comprehension

It's a conversation between two people

>>9007439
>he thinks statistical facts can breed morality

What's it like being a brainlet?

>>9007278
I wouldn't get married or have children in the first place so your point is null!

>>9007278
He would have composed an epic fantasy novel about all the themes it raised for him.

>>9007461
>Again, I do not accept your axioms.
What do you think my axioms are?

>>9007483
Probably something like:
>cuckcuckcuckfuckcuckBBCamericaamericaTrumpcuckcuckfuckmexicandegeneratedegeneratecuckweakmasterracecuckfuckfuck

>>9007442
I do get where you're coming from, but that only works if a group of individuals do it, if you apply that on your own you'll just die early.
Also in MKJ's case, his supporters were provoking the cops to act and hit them (granted it doesn't take much for an american cop to hit a black person), just for that to be caught on tape.
I'm not saying this invalidates anything, it was a clever way to use your opponent's violence against him using mass media, but nonviolence wasn't the only factor at work here.
Not being violent sometimes work, but pushing it this far is sort of useless, at least if you only do it on your own.

>>9007483
I do not accept your concept of """"self""""

What don't you get about that?

>>9007467
>verbal violence can't happen during a conversation
are you a retard?

>>9007242
Sometimes you have to sacrifice a baby to Moloch, anon.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

>>9007491
Its one of Stirners most misunderstood concepts, which a lot of people misread (even back in his day). What do you think Stirners concept of the self is and what is yours? You might actually agree with him

In the industry we call it a "cuck".

>>9007263
>then they start thinking about why they hit people. And once they think about why they hit people, they're less likely to do it again."

you know there are lots of people who start fights as a kind of sport. when Achmed has had three lines of coke and you try to appeal to his moral reasoning youre only gong to get laughed at and punched agin.

>>9007474
Yeah, I'd wager you wouldn't, lol.

>>9007501
I don't have a concept of the """"self"""".

I am aware of the manner in which people have misunderstood Stirner.

I am more concerned about public terms and linguistic communities rather than the self.

>>9007490
>if you apply that on your own you'll just die early.
Or become a martyr like Jesus, or the countless other people whose deaths brought about significant change.

>his supporters were provoking the cops to act and hit them (granted it doesn't take much for an american cop to hit a black person), just for that to be caught on tape

That's the point. Allowing society to acknowledge the violence it's committing and reflect on its horror is a vital component to change via non-resistance. It's why so much theological weight is put on understanding the physical suffering of Jesus' crucifixion.

>>9007443
Bumping for this, what do you think of this outcome OP?

>>9007504
Enjoy your slave system!

>>9007505
>I am aware of the manner in which people have misunderstood Stirner.

Then why not just tell what you think his concept of self is?

>I am more concerned about public terms and linguistic communities rather than the self.

How come?

>>9007509
Do you want the human race to die out?
If yes, fuck your opinion, traitor.
If no, fuck your hypocrisy, lazy ass slacker.

>>9007512
Philosophical confusion begins with language.

>>9007516
I don't want it to die out.

I just want to be perfect and pure.

>>9007507
>Or become a martyr like Jesus
You only know how Jesus died because Christians fought to remain christian. If they all applied their own morals consistently we'd be preaching some Norse Gods right now.

>>9007523
>Philosophical confusion begins with language.

So your solution is reject discussion on such things fullstop?

You still havent even told me what you think Stirners concept of the self is despite claiming to know so.

>>9007528
The spread of Christianity is more complex than that. It was persecuted for centuries, then grudgingly accepted, then spread via Roman infrastructure, then spread via conquest. The notion that Christianity wouldn't exist if it weren't for that last part simply isn't true. There are many places in Europe where Christianity replaced the local Gods without an intervening war.

OP do you think the the Morori acted appropriately in this situation?

>>9007443

>>9007523
>I just want to be perfect and pure.
As in, you don't want the human race to die out, but you are not prepared to do the gritty work to raise the next generation, and you put down those who are.

I can only assume you are a teenager or an asshole.

>>9007545
hes in highschool m8 what do you expect?

>>9007467
>he thinks statistical facts can't breed morality

>>9007548
Fair enough, then.

OP, please be one of those people who stop being a teenager without starting being an asshole.

>>9007545
>>9007548
>>9007557
I'm not in highschool.

Are you people without thought?

I don't want to have children because I don't want to bring suffering into the world.

That doesn't make me an anti-natalist.

>>9007560
I was addressing OP, who specifically said
>People at school bully me. If you meant uni, then... oh dear that's not good news for you.

This has got nothing to do with nationalism. You simply have not sorted out where you stand on this.

I assume you are this poster that I am still talking to, who said

>>9007523
>I don't want it to die out.

But now you're saying you DO want it to die out, because it involves too much suffering.

Or, YOU PERSONALLY do not want to be responsible for the suffering, in which my point was
>you don't want the human race to die out, but you are not prepared to do the gritty work to raise the next generation

>>9007560
>I'm not in highschool.
Well ironically your OP wasnt clear about that.

>>9007560
That does make you a cuckold tho

>>9007242
>>"I believe it is in fact more brave to allowed yourself to be murdered."
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha

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I think the real reason is that OP was raised by women and is afraid of getting in a fight, hence these inane rationalisations.

I am against violence but since this body is an avatar of my ideals, by attacking it ones attack the ideals themselves.
So by allowing it, I would allow dissing them and this is unacceptable.
I answer violence with even greater violence, for allowing evil to harm you is evil in itself.

>>9007396
>intelligence
>violence
ha.

>>9007250
>means you'll have a long, arduous and ultimately fulfilling life.
Unless you allow yourself to be murdered, of course.

>>9007684
It is precisely because I was once evil and a monster that I have chosen Good, idiot!

>People make me an outcast because I'm literally useless to them
Jeez, bud. I don't know why the atoms of the cultural system are rejecting the uncooperative atom :^(

>>9007933
You need to start lifting weights, boy.

>>9007943
I am incredibly fit, idiot and regularly go on 20km runs.

>>9007942
>Violence is useful

Cuck to your tribal morality!

>>9007949
Isn't preaching peace ideological violence towards the current ideology in fashion? If yes, you're an hypocrite.

>>9007961
>Physical violence and suffering is comparable to challenging ideas

Cuck!

>>9007967
Are you saying that challenging a characteristic of the communities's self isn't going to create suffering? You're insolent if you believe that changing the way most adults live isn't going to bring pain to them and to those who depend on them.

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>>9007242
christcuck?

You are part of nature but you live against nature that way, thus you are not going to have so good ride if you continue that way.

Christianity and other abrahamic religions say that there is heven elsewhere than in the earth, thus it leaves the heaven of earth to those who see this scam.

Others LIVE, others do not so much.

Save yourself and man up, or die with your cuckery. The death will come naturally though, you either die in a situation because you are weak, or your life will be driven in to depression because of your cuck values and you will kys.

Or you can save yourself and have a little nice time before a death like all other living beings.

Tolstoy was ok writer though!

>>9007988
>Naturalist Fallacy

Into the trash you go!

>>9007993
I know cucks are as much part of nature as anything else, but you can change your role meanwhile you are alive. If you have it in you.

>>9007993
>Naturalistic fallacy
kek. This anon dumb af

>The Is is
FALLACY

Its about time to read Hume, bud

>>9008003
>>9007996
>He thinks Natural = Should

LMAO, Into the le trash you go1!!

>>9007263
>ambushed by urban youth
>he demands my wallet
>sincerely ask him why he's resorting to such violence
>appeal to the good within him
>he stabs me
>kicks my head in when I'm down
>suffer brain damage

th...thanks

>>9008006
No, you retard. None of us made a moral statement. We did statements of facts. As I said in another post explaining to you the post you accused of being fallacious: The Is is, there is it is. None of us argued that something ought to be, but that it is like it is and therefore one should adapt or perish.

>>9007360
>>the human race can't evolve

All societies that become nonviolent are soon overrun with violent invaders.

>>9007263
Honestly doubt you'd be able to just keep your cool and stand in front of someone and calmly ask them that question. You're not in a movie.

After you get punched in the face there'll be more punches that follow. You'll frantically scream out "why are you hitting me?" which will only make you appear to be pathetic and won't cause them to reflect on their actions.

>>9007474
What if they were raping your mom?
Who would buy you hot pockets then?

>>9007443
The Māori were just immigrants trying to make a better life for themselves.

>>9008067
>What if they were raping your mom?

I would commit suicide on the spot as an act of protest


:^)

>>9008075
Truly an hero to us all.

>The movement continued to grow after the writer’s death and was at its strongest in the years immediately following the revolutions of 1917 with agricultural communities established in the provinces of Smolensk, Tver, Samara, Kursk, Perm and Kiev. The Tolstoyan communities that proliferated between 1917 and 1921 were eventually wiped out or stripped of their independence as collectivisation and ideological purges got under way in the late 1920s.[1] Colonies, such as the Life and Labor Commune, relocated to Siberia to avoid being liquidated. Several Tolstoyan leaders, including Yakov Dragunovsky (1886-1937), were put on trial and then sent to the Gulags.[10]

Good plan OP.

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>>9007242
>>9007242

OP, this is actually beta as fuck. In high school i was skinny so the bullies were around me but i had a lot of friends that were ''stronk'' so they always showed not to fuck around. I don't mind it.

Because those people who use violence on a daily basis are just dumb and they will never ever question anything about their lifestyle. They won't understand you, and you will get beaten or even worse.

If you insist to be part of this philosophy i would recommend you pic related.

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>>9007242
>mfw useful idiots for the capitalists

Accept violence but don't relish it. That is the true way to live.

>>9007263
>hit some scrawny boffin neek in the face for banter
>"w-why did you do that"
>Banter fanny
>slap him again and make him kiss my shoes infront of the lads

Damn I miss secondary school

>>9007387
>Spotted the immature fag that feels a need to oversimplify philosophical issues and talk in broad generalizations to trying to get his point across.

>>9007242
well it's laughable to see opinions like this, because you've obviously never had your life actually threatened. If you actually DID refuse to defend yourself out of principle, that's another story, other than that you just sound like a self-rationalizing pussy.

>>9008062
I've been in that situation and acted accordingly. It's not that hard unless you're a faggot who can't take a punch. If all else fails just restrain them.

>>9007949
Violence is useful if used for self defence.

Anybody who is unwilling to use violence to protect me is not actually my friend. Because they value their so called morals before my safety.

>>9008255
Not my fault Commies ruin everything.

>>9008348
Slave to your tribal morality!

You don't realise that my hatred for violence is born out of my own capacity for evil and actions of the past!

>>9007242
You're an idiot. Can you imagine if Tolstoy was murdered before writing any of the work you feel so inspired by? If you think it is such a world changing philosophy, what would you think if he had been murdered and never been able to share such a sentiment with you?

Self defense is okay. Do not allow anyone to take your life away from you. That is the most precious gift you have been given and do not let it go to waste over vanity and righteousness to someone who does not value your life or your being.

>>9007242
If you really think allowing yourself to be murdered is brave then I don't know what to tell you

>>9008399

Your statements make me wonder if you even know what evil, or violence even is.

>>9007988
14/88

>>9007242
Altruism is indeed an ideal to strive for in all situations. But defaulting to it in all situations makes you lunch and you aren't doing anyone any favors by laying down and being a doormat.

>>9008399
>he uses exclamation marks

spot the virgin

>>9008483
He uses meme arrows!

Spot the pleb!

>>9008525
ikr
what year is this, 2017?

>>9008450
You're probably one of those retards that says people aren't brave for committing suicide.

>>9007263
Ahhh I remember being a sophomore in College. Unfortunately, life is not filled with well educated, introspective thinkers. It's just glorified animals pretending they're anything but.

>>9008385
don't buy it

>>9007503
This. Like honestly man, have you been around people drinking? The moral high ground is nil when you have a permanent disability/death while your attacker could prove his masculinity.

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>>9007242
>"There was a Muggle once named Mohandas Gandhi," Harry said to the floor. "He thought the government of Muggle Britain shouldn't rule over his country. And he refused to fight. He convinced his whole country not to fight. Instead he told his people to walk up to the British soldiers and let themselves be struck down, without resisting, and when Britain couldn't stand doing that any more, we freed his country. I thought it was a very beautiful thing, when I read about it, I thought it was something higher than all the wars that anyone had ever fought with guns or swords. That they'd really done that, and that it had _actually worked."_ Harry drew another breath. "Only then I found out that Gandhi told his people, during World War II, that if the Nazis invaded they should use nonviolent resistance against them, too. But the Nazis would've just shot everyone in sight. And maybe Winston Churchill always felt that there should've been a better way, some clever way to win without having to hurt anyone; but he never found it, and so he had to fight." Harry looked up at the Headmaster, who was staring at him. "Winston Churchill was the one who tried to convince the British government not to give Czechoslovakia to Hitler in exchange for a peace treaty, that they should fight right away -"
>"I recognize the name, Harry," said Dumbledore. The old wizard's lips twitched upward. "Although honesty compels me to say that dear Winston was never one for pangs of conscience, even after a dozen shots of Firewhiskey."
>"The point is," Harry said, after a brief pause to remember exactly who he was talking to, and fight down the suddenly returning sense that he was an ignorant child gone insane with audacity who had no right to be in this room and no right to question Albus Dumbledore about anything, "the point is, saying violence is evil isn't an answer. It doesn't say when to fight and when not to fight. It's a hard question and Gandhi refused to deal with it, and that's why I lost some of my respect for him."

>>9009230
>let themselves be struck down, without resisting, and when Britain couldn't stand doing that any more, we freed his country
Is this what people actually believe happened¿

>>9009230
First off, obligatory reddit fedora cringe etc. to get that out of the way

Second, this is correct. Violence is necessary in some situations, and in other situations non-violence is ten times stronger and ten times more profound.

Gandhi viewed non-violence as a weapon and as requiring more strength than mere violence (inner strength, true discipline). He actually phrased it in a way Nietzsche would've loved. We view non-violence as so peaceful and lovey-dovey, but if you try to do the shit Gandhi did, you realize you need to be a fucking badass to do it.

In other cases, of course, the schoolyard bully won't leave you alone unless you punch him in the mouth and show him you have some sense of self-worth and dignity.

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>>9009230
>"And your own answer, Harry?" Dumbledore said quietly.
>"One answer is that you shouldn't ever use violence except to stop violence," Harry said. "You shouldn't risk anyone's life except to save even more lives. It _sounds_ good when you say it like that. Only the problem is that if a police officer sees a burglar robbing a house, the police officer _should_ try to stop the burglar, even though the burglar might fight back and someone might get hurt or even killed. Even if the burglar is only trying to steal jewelry, which is just a _thing._ Because if nobody so much as _inconveniences_ burglars, there will be _more_ burglars, and _more_ burglars. And even if they only ever stole _things_ each time, it would - the fabric of society -" Harry stopped. His thoughts weren't as ordered as they usually pretended to be, in this room. He should have been able to give some perfectly logical exposition in terms of game theory, should have at least been able to see it that way, but it was eluding him. Hawks and doves - "Don't you see, if evil people are willing to risk violence to get what they want, and good people always back down because violence is too terrible to risk, it's - it's not a good society to live in, Headmaster!"

>>9007945
>doing cardio instead of lifting weights
Proof that this turns you into a fag.

>>9007242
>"The simple fact is that non-violent means do not work against Evil. Gandhi's non-violent resistance against the British occupiers had some effect because Britain was wrong, but not Evil. The same is true of the success of non-violent civil rights resistance against de jure racism. Most people, including those in power, knew that what was being done was wrong. But Evil is an entirely different beast. Gandhi would have gone to the ovens had he attempted non-violent resistance against the Nazis. When one encounters Evil, the only solution is violence, actual or threatened. That's all Evil understands."

>>9010261
>Britain was wrong, but not Evil
mein
gott

>>9007341
I want you to know that I know who you are, and I still haven't given up.

>>9007496
rationalist pls go

>>9007250
This post actually means something to me. Thanks, Anon.

>>9008032
>let's both put down our guns OK?
>you first
>n-no... you first!
>I just want peace, ok?
>me too!
>so put down your gun
>NO YOU PUT DOWN YOUR GUN FIRST

We're funny little monkeys...

>>9009230
>lesswrong
This gave me autism.

>>9007242
This only matters if your oppressors give a shit about being moral. If they don't care about their own morality then your pacifist philosophy won't even accomplish anything but you getting your ass beat or murdered.

>punch a skinny nerd in the library for insulting my copy of Infinite Jest
>he whimpers "W-why did y-you do that??"
>reply with a serious and considered response to Tolstoy's thoughts on non-resistance to violence and why it ultimately show weakness rather than tolerance
>punch him again

>>9011370
It's almost like humans have complex emotional responses to things

>>9013465
>biosurvival fear
>complex
Nah.

>>9012797
then people will see that they're disgusting lunatics and will be less likely to trust them

>>9007242
What if someone is bullying someone else? Then what do you do?

>>9007242

You fight for what in your heart is right.
You fight to protect those you love and cherish.
You fight for what's yours
You fight to help others keep theirs.

You're human, you fight.

Because that's how we became the apex here and that's how we'll always stay the apex.