I got into an argument with my boyfriend about gender and literature.

my diary desu

>>8947503
this t.b.h

Pride and Prejudice, of course

>>8947510
I don't think it's a masterpiece, it's a pretty good work but it's nothing like Homor or Shakespeare.

>>8947491
the princess of cleves

The Waves.

>>8947491
The Secret History

the waves

As much as most people hate it, Atlas Shrugged might as well be a masterpiece.

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>>8947491
Behind every man there is a woman (if not his whore wife atleast he has a mom)

>dumb people dating

post pics of your bf

>>8947525
>>8947532
This as far as I know. Otherwise there aren't any others.

Maybe To The Lighthouse as well? The Brontes are good but not masterpieces, and Austen is good but not masterful either.

>>8947491
Miss Macintosh, My Darling
The Waves
To the Lighthouse
Middlemarch

>>8947518
Homer's work isnt noted for its literary merit. He never wrote any masterpieces.

>>8947548
>He never wrote any masterpieces.
Undergraduate.

Why would you talk about genre and literature if you don't know shit about it?

To the Lighthouse, Mrs. Dalloway (it's secretly her best desu), The Waves

>>8947491
Define masterpiece?

I mean, if we're just talking books that are considered part of the western canon, have had a meaningful impact on literature, and which are taught at universities, then: Virginia Woolf 'To The Lighthouse'

If we're talking older books which have had a significant impact on the cultural zeitgeist, which resonate with reader, and which continue to be read even today, then: Mary Shelley 'Frankenstein.'

If we're talking ultra-hip, modern, genre-defining authors who accurately capture the modern condition, and who have sold hundreds of thousands of copies of their book whilst maintaining academic interest in their work, then: Zadie Smith, 'White Teeth.'

These are just off the top of my head. Jane Austen, the Brontes, Octavia Butler, Sylvia Plath and Harper Lee also come to mind.

Also what's the show in the image? It's ringing some distant bell of childhood, but I can't remember what it's called.

>>8947557
I guarantee I have read more than you. The examples being thrown around in this thread are not masterpieces, maybe Middlemarch but that's a stretch.

The Tale of Genji
Frankenstein
Wuthering Heights
To Kill a Mockingbird (maybe, jury's still out on that one)

>>8947491
>that are considered masterpieces
By whom? What do you mean by masterpiece?

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>>8947563
Angela anaconda

>>8947590
It looks like she's using her own subjective taste to define masterpiece, making posting in this thread a pointless exercise.

>>8947589
>Frankenstein
>Wuthering Heights
>To Kill a Mockingbird
>masterpieces

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*deep breath*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>8947553
>how to discard your own opinion and lose all credibility in a single word

>>8947597
Thanks. I fucking hated that show, but watching it was better than watching nothing.

I know it's bait, but Flannery O'Connor is god-tier.

>>8947611
A well thought out, comprehensive counter-argument.

>>8947522
That is one sexy post bb. Good answer.

>>8947589
Good set of books. Bit plebby high school tier but then OP is not even that. The last one is only debateable in light of the sequel.

>>8947564
What marvels of lit do you read then?

>>8947548
Decent post.

>>8947626
he gave as much of an argument against your dumb list as you gave for it

>>8947553
Homer definitely did not write anything in the same way that Austen wrote Pride and Prejudice. He probably didn't even write it in a cold mechanical sense considering he may well have been blind. So "he" recited an old story to someone.

>>8947491
Waves, lighthouse, middlemarch

Also, epin bait

>>8947638
Why are we arguing for the suggestions now?

>>8947548
>Homer's work isnt noted for its literary merit. He never wrote any masterpieces.
>thinks women are good authors
Girl detected.

Girls need to get the fuck out desu

>>8947491
many, but your boyfriend will never know them

>>8947657
>He probably didn't even write it in a cold mechanical sense considering he may well have been blind.

We don't even have any idea who Homer is, or even if he's just one person. What basis do you have for "he may well have been blind"?

Also just because a work has its origins in oral history doesn't magically mean it can't be a masterpiece. It was a story that reverberated with the Greeks for fucking centuries.

>>8947669
agatha christie is my favourite.

>>8947615
Thanks DFW

>>8947564

If you're so well read why couldn't you give your boyfriend an answer? You must have big tits because it's not your sharp mind men are attracted to.

>>8947668
>wanting leather skinned outdoor girls
>not raising indoor veal skinned girls

>>8947674
>It was a story that reverberated with the Greeks for fucking centuries.
Because it was a historical account surrounding their early society and culture. They used Homer's works as a kind of semi legal document to decide political disputes and such. It in fact holds several details that tally well with archaeological evidence so it's really not Homer's creation by any stretch.

Demodokos has been considered as a self insert for a long time. That idea dates back to antiquity, but whether it's true or not who knows.

>>8947719
I don't think there are any masterpieces written by women because there are so many works written by men that eclipse even the best of women's writing. When you stack them up with the works written by men it is disingenuous to call them masterpieces- unless of course you want to expand the definition of a masterpiece to the point at which the word has no meaning.

>>8947611
By your own admittance Tale of Genji then satisfies OP's conditions?

Also how the fuck is Frankenstein not a masterpiece

>>8947737

What were you even arguing about then?

>>8947737
>i have no understanding of how a guild works or the origins of the term masterpiece
>surely they kick out the old masters when the apprentices qualify
i don't know how to fix your broken thinking so good luck to the anon you're talking to

>>8947677
She wrote one masterpiece over and over and over again.

>>8947747
Not OP, but you are an autistic retard. Get the fuck off my board.

>>8947728
>It in fact holds several details that tally well with archaeological evidence

What are you referring to?

>>8947763
>how dare someone know what words mean on /lit/
ikr it's like people don't just buy books as ornaments, fucking queers

>>8947742
Yeah Tale of Genji is p. good. Frankenstein is a fricking dimestore novel.

>>8947768
did you read the percy edit of frankenstein or some shit?

>>8947764
You can use fucking google m8

>>8947772
Inb4 they watched the movie.

>>8947790
lol didn't even consider that tbph

>>8947787
I'm asking you, because I know for a fact that there isn't any archaeological evidence that tallies well with anything in Homer. Even Troy VII likely isn't the site of the Troy in the Iliad, and that was the best thing going for it.

>>8947522
I'm gonna check this out, thanks

>>8947491
middlemarch

>>8947491
jane eyre

>>8947833
>checking out a book just because the author is female

>>8947768
If you didn't appreciate Frankenstein then you didn't understand Frankenstein. Reread it. If you still don't understand it, read 'Romanticism: An Oxford Guide' and then reread it. If you still don't appreciate it, you're beyond help.

>>8947849
She is asking for books by female authors

U even /lit/

Genji Monogatari definitely a masterpiece.

>>8947858
Yeah, I'm sure the German artistic movement of Romanticism found its highest expression in a come-lately English aristocrat's wife writing self-indulgent tripe about ludicrous monsters.

>>8947802
Fuck off you armchair twat and read something. Your post there is fucking retarded.

Anything written by Flannery O'Connor.

Anything by Eudora Welty

Song of Solomon by Toni Morisson

Just off the top of my head. Your bf seems like a douchebag but you seem like a dumbass too so I guess it was meant to be.

>>8947674
>I never learned Homeric greek

>>8947877
You are beyond help.

>>8947894
You're a pleb.

>>8947877
>German
Are you an actual /pol/tard getting your info from twitter schizophrenics by any chance?

>>8947897
what the heck is lit infatuation with pol right now. it's such a cope out

>>8947882
At least you tried

>>8947919
You zoomed in on one aspect that's like a 19thC bit of conjecture. Which you them derided when it probably has legs on some level.

>>8947491
The Age of Innocence and a few others by Edith Wharton. Honestly, your boyfriend sounds like a real pill

>>8947907
>cope out
Anyway, you retards are coming from somewhere.

>>8947973
>attacks typos
>on 4chan

I'm pretty sure you came from reddit.

>>8947491
Every fucking day. "My definition of 'great' or 'masterpiece' doesn't include any works by women. Prove me wrong." Piss off, and stop pretending to be female.

>>8947993
How would that be a typo?

The 4chan being unconcerned with correct language idea is also amusing. There's a reason for the Le Reddit meme.

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also Memoirs of Hadrian.

Tale of Genji is probably the most high tier, civ defining work by a woman though. unless homer or shakespeare were women, both possibilities espoused by limp wristed professors I have had.

>>8947993
thanks for defending me

>>8947491

>Jane Eyre
>To Kill A Mockingbird
>Pride And Prejudice
>Atlas Shrugged

There's 4

If you're talking to a teenager they'd probably say 'Muh Hunger Games' or 'Muh Harry Potter'

>>8948019
Attacking people for typos, spelling mistakes, or grammatical errors is the lowes form of argument and also pure reddit behavior, you've been found out, just stop posting. Go back to r/books.

who's better emily bronte or charlotte bronte

>>8948050
>the lowes form of argument
Nothing wrong with the arguments at Lowe's. It's amazing how those hardware guys are buttblasting you so hard.

>>8947545
Calling To The Lighthouse a 'masterpiece' is a pretty big stretch

>>8948059
Anne.

>>8948061
here have an upvote

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>>8948041
>mfw I'm 80 years older and Harry Potter is an accepted part of the Western canon while my masterpieces lay about unpublished

>>8948067
I don't get the reference.

The Fountainhead

Atlas Shrugged

>>8948079
Most popular books are forgotten. It doesn't look like Rowling is another Christie so she'll just fade into obscurity eventually.

>>8947548
>he never wrote any masterpieces
Correct on a technicality.

>>8948050
It's not even a form of argument, it's just K-12-autism or trolling

>>8948097
Only time will tell, I guess. Hopefully I die before that point, should that point ever exist in the future.

>>8947768
>>8947877
are you serious
your criticisms of Frankenstein could be equally applied to Tale of Genji
Genji was a serial novel written by a noblewoman for other noblewomen to read, it was basically an ancient soap opera

>>8947491
Genji Monogatari.

... not much else though. Or, anything at all.

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>>8947503

>>8948156
You're arguing with people who haven't read dick bro, there's no point. Most of the male authors they think they'd like they probably wouldn't, and the old books they think are possible contenders for female like Genji are not as high literature as they believe.

Frankenstein however is fucking genius, there's no way around it.

>>8948225
>and the old books they think are possible contenders for female like Genji are not as high literature as they believe.

lol

Maybe you'd think this if you read it in translation. Anyway casting aspersions on a true masterpiece written by an East Asian writer while holding up a mediocre book written by a white woman as "genius," strikes me as having more to do with your own racism than anything else.

>>8948287
>Maybe you'd think this if you read it in translation.
It's a soap opera in and out of Japanese, translation isn't some magic wand in this case.

I don't follow your racism argument but I suspect you're doin a brain problems thing.

>>8947993

It's not a typo you fuckwad, look at your keyboard and see how far away the P and E keys are.

>>8948287

>Anyway casting aspersions on a true masterpiece written by an East Asian writer while holding up a mediocre book written by a white woman as "genius," strikes me as having more to do with your own racism than anything else.

This leap of logic proudly brought to you by the American Humanities """"Education"""" system

The Tale of Genji

>>8948287
>Maybe you'd think this if you read it in translation.
lol
not even native Japanese speakers read it in its original language

>>8948462
Some do, but even so reading a translation into modern Japanese is significantly different from reading a translation into English. Much like the difference between translating Beowulf into modern English and translating it into Japanese.

>>8948397
whoa take a chill pillt

>>8948475
>Much like the difference between translating Beowulf into modern English and translating it into Japanese.
Chaucer is a better point of comparison.

Women do not have the rationale nor ambition to produce excellent art or to be great thinkers.

Can we stop having this thread everyday?

>>8948480
Chaucer hardly even needs to be translated though.

>>8948481
t. /pol/tard who believes in Pizzagate

>>8948481
let me guess your mother abandonedd you at an early age

>>8947993
>accusing people of cop out arguments
>accusing people of coning from reddit
Pick one, friendo

O R L A N D O

T H E N O T E B O O K T H E P R O O F A N D T H E T H I R D L I E

>>8948493
Some parts of Chaucer are a pain. Plus Beowulf isn't particularly modern, whereas both The Canterbury Tales and Tale of Genji have (surprising) modern elements.

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>>8947668
We've been here from the start my friend.

>>8948493
Canterbury Tales no.

Troilus in the original English was a fucking slog though. Pretty hard stuff without any annotation or translation.

>>8947553
Homer didn't WRITE anything you FUCKING clown holy shit. You're actually so fucking dense even from this distance the escape velocity of your arguments exceeds the speed of light.

IDIOT.

>>8948553
Tangent:
Orlando is a decent piece to better understand women in history with, but I don't think it applies to modern society at all. Agree or disagree?

>>8947564
By what metric are we quantifying 'amount read'? Purely by time spent? By time spent relative to age? By books read? By literary books read? By amount of shitposting on /lit/ about how much more you've read than other people? By books owned? By grades achieved in most recent literature course completed? By number of friends on facebook? By upvotes attained on r/books? By words read? By pages read? By some function of time spent AND pages/words read? By highest qualification achieved in English/Literature/Something /lit/ related (not film studies, fuck off)? By some combination of two or more of these things?

Please help me to understand.

>>8947657
>Homer never wrote anything in the same way that Austen wrote Pride and Prejudice
Simply retarded.

>comparing writing from 1200BC to Jane Austen

>>8948598
You are the fucking retard here for actually not understanding what 'oral tradition' is and still imagining you have anything worthwhile to say.

Fucking kill yourself, by which I mean go to school tomorrow and every day after and pay attention until you fucking graduate and then come back.

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>>8948500
Uranium is the more important.

>>8947491
Atlas Shrugged

>>8948608
Top kek

>WHY DIDNT HOMER WRITE LIKE JANE AUSTEN??!?1 ALL HE DID WAS RECITE A STORY!!

>>8948500
Explain why Alefantis' instagram had pictures of children restrained with tape and bound against tables if pizzagate isn't real. Explain his association through John Podesta with convicted child sex criminal Dennis Hastert.

>>8948630
Is "I was retarded all along!" the new "I was merely pretending!"?

>>8948633
Explain what's going on with Rosatom

>>8948652
Rightly or wrongly...

>>8948630
His point has actually gone so far over your head it's not even funny. It's gone so insanely far over your head so fucking fast it's attained escape velocity and is now on its way to Europa where it will be discovered with confusion and fascination by the first manned Europan mission in a hundred years time.


You are so fucking retarded that even a thousand generations from now the percentile increase in intelligence in the average Homo Sapien resulting from your not having children will still be an integer.

>>8948670
epic

>>8948670
Ebin

>>8948638
>It was just oral tradition bro it doesn't count haha

>>8948670
>>8948727

Being a mathematician by training, and having dabbled in the actuarial sciences, I immediately started to compute, based on a current population size, the Logistics equation, and a reasonable top end of 10B, with no consideration of apocalyptic reduction, and a lifespan not considerably more than 100 years, the total population of 1000 generations based on the current average of about 20 years but, also through the logistics equation, a knee of about 30 years over the entire function.
Using the eigenvector of the state equation for this generational change of IQ scores based solely on the one score this person and his progeny would have had to have to reduce the average by one percentile point (the assumption being that that would be the minimum integer value needed) I have computed that indeed this was a great insult.

>>8948816
Nice shitpost

>>8947535
Atlas Shrugged is really poorly written. Objectively. But no one can say that it wasn't influential.
I think it's fair to say it's one of the most widely celebrated (among readers) standalone, non-YA novels written by a woman, and one of the few such works which appeal to men.
Saying that, I don't think many people would qualify it as a "masterpiece".

>>8948834
I wouldn't qualify it as a masterpiece. The prose is quite dull.

people like to conflate influence with a work being a masterpiece

>>8948570
This meme again

>>8948864
You can't argue with those retards.

>>8948864
>>8948872
Ahah, it's the "Homer didn't write is a meme" meme again!

Good 1 lads!

i am being insincere by the way. i feel I need to point this out to avoid confusing you fuckheads. i don't actually think it's a "good 1".

>>8948881
I wish I was as good at hitting control c as Homer was :^)

>>8948951
i bet you do. Maybe then you'd contribute something intelligent to this discussion.

>>8948951
>hitting control c

what does this mean?

>>8947728

>It in fact holds several details that tally well with archaeological evidence so it's really not Homer's creation by any stretch.

Is this to suggest that any form of literature based in history can't be a masterwork? Are you suggesting that masterworks must be works of absolute fiction?

>>8948995
He's implying that Homer, as part of the oral tradition, was just someone who retold stories rather than being a creator in any real sense.

Isis Unveiled

>>8948225
>Frankenstein however is fucking genius, there's no way around it.
Ugh are you undergrads still on break?

>>8947491
Luisa Josefina Hernández. All of it.

>>8949052
Orally transmitted verse is also not the same as a historical novel. Do you think Homer went to the library and researched the Trojan war now?

It's akin to suggesting the Brothers Grimm wrote most European fairy tales.

>>8947491

two faggots arguing about female literature

I'm sure your father is real proud of you

epic

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Why are anon giving OP genuine answers? OP didn't actually find any female masterpieces by searching organically and being interested in female thought. OP just wants to you to quickly give a few names as ammunition that they can rattle off later.

The whole motive is disingenuous bullshit. If you can't even naturally recall one female masterpiece that you've personally read then why defend a female's capacity to create masterpieces? It's evidently not something that you personally give a shit about. If it was you could name a work or two.

>>8950463
>being such a pissant you worry about what daddy thinks
Wow.

>>8950475
>OP just wants to you to quickly give a few names as ammunition that they can rattle off later.
They have a bunch of names that are inarguably classics though, so who cares? They'll just look like an idiot until they find a pleb group that agrees with stupid shit. The names above are a very small subsection of the female authors /lit/ discusses.

>>8950487

I know but it's just annoying to see anon giving namedrops to a mindless identity politics bullshitter.

I fucking hate identity politics so much.

>>8947491
Female writers suck, they always make it all about their sex.

>A woman must have money and a room of her own if she is to write fiction

yeah... as opposed to?

>>8950504

>Female writers suck

Na your taste is just really entry and shit like most of /lit/.

>>8950497
I agree desu bro.

>>8950649
He already got dubs and all you could do was muster a 9? It's over.

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>>8947529
You need to go back.

Where can i find a copy of The Waves? Is it highly recommended here? it was published on my birthday so im drawn to it

>>8950419

Again, how does this magically mean it's not a masterwork?

First you were dismissing its significance for its historical content and now you're dismissing its significance for its lack of valid historical content.

What exactly is your criteria for a masterwork?

>>8947491
Not again...No more of this thread. It's appeared at least 5 times in the last few hours.

>>8948097
>Most popular books are forgotten
*All books are forgotten.

>>8950807
Who is saying it's not a great piece of literature? The argument is more about whether it's written by a dude.

I also don't see your historical content argument. I think you're doing that autistic perseverance thing of trying to pigeon hole everything into almost random groups. Historical novels are not historical documents, you wouldn't for example use Blood Meridian as a serious point of reference for what happened in 19th C frontier America. However, the Iliad, like the Bible, is a kind of record of what happened in the past. The peoples who kept these records referred to them as historic fact too. And in both cases again they seem to refer to actual events and places as borne out by other evidence, even if now we wouldn't consider their historicity on par with modern records. Pls don't confuse apples and oranges like that.

>>8950856
Not yet Titor.

>>8948633
Why would a pedo put pictures of their victims on instagram, of all places?

>>8950898
They didn't realize how smrt these /pol/babbies are.

It's amazing in a way, people with no lives calling dinner parties and fancy dress and so on suspicious.

>>8947491
>Women
>Good writers

>>8947563
>>8947844
>>8948041
>Jane Austin
>Charlotte bronte
>Emily Bronte
Stop. The idea that this trio of English ladies - whose entire world was so grotesquely narrow that it could literraly fit the place around a tea table and the only thing they could write about was some mysterious gentlemen whose mysteriousness manifested only in not wanting to marry the ladies they were supposed to marry as they were so crazy about them anyway - created anything worthwile is laughable to say the least.

>>8948881

I don't know how this managed to make me laugh

>>8951056

Wuthering Heights is dope homie, literally some of the dopest shit

>>8951056
>and the only thing they could write about was some mysterious gentlemen whose mysteriousness manifested only in not wanting to marry the ladies they were supposed to marry as they were so crazy about them anyway
I used to think like that but it's really far deeper than you believe. Much of Austen for example lies in the background.

Consider as well that we're a decent way before Marx and co, shit is excellent regency social commentary.

To kill a mockingbird
To be fair, it's really hard to remember it was written by a woman. Perhaps it's the name of the author

>>8947737
Substitute 'women' for 'Americans' and you have a fully fledged cunt of a point.

>>8948041
I'm sick of seeing Atlas fucking Shrugged shoehorned into discussions of masterpieces by arse gravy dribbling conservative spastics. Just agreeing with the underlying philosophy of a novel does not make it great literature. Rand was a Dan Brown tier writer.

>>8950753
You old as fuck, son.

>>8951056
If Negros can write about "the black experience" and win awards over and over again, certainly an upper class british lady can write about her experiences being a sequestered target of suitors.

>>8951119
Is this bait

prozac nation, harry potter, i will never be beautiful enough to make us beautiful together

>>8947877
pseud

>>8947491
>not knowing that all major literary accomplishments were ghost-written by women of colour

>>8947510
That book is shit

>>8953188
I know this is a troll but many academics now think it is very likely that Shakespeare's true identity was a female African slave who had to transmit her plays through intermediaries because of societal prejudice.

>>8954641

are you fighting fire with fire? post some peer reviewed proof of theory son.

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>>8954641
>>8953188
Here's your reply.

>>8947491
your bf is right go apologize right now with a surprise bj

Bonjour tristesse

>>8947491
pee pee poo poo look at the time its this thread tiem again with 187 replies whoopee shit
kys OP kys all who replied without a sage

>>8947491
Suck his cock and tell him you're sorry

>>8947548
I'm on board with To The Lighthouse, although I don't consider myself (or anyone on this board, for that matter) able to qualify something as masterpiece.

Speaking of VW, has it been discussed that Orlando is a perverted transvestite?

>>8948561
Are you aware Tale of Genji was written roughly 1000 years ago during the Heian period? Beowulf is the more accurate comparison.