When did you find out that you were doomed to be a Salieri rather

>>8924995

>one of the greatest composers of his generation
>appointed director of opera and court composer to the emperor
>personally tutored schubert, liszt, and fucking beethoven
>spoke half a dozen languages
>banged his leading sopranos

yeah i would settle for that desu senpai

>>8925010
But he was a mediocrity. I think you missed the point. He was a performing monkey. Never to scratch the surface of the great Mozart.

>>8925010
Only able to recognize genius but not BE genius

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When I realised the fact I wasn't born Japanese disqualifies me from making anime. Wagner's complete work of art is just outside of my grasp because of the colour of my skin.

>>8925015

>he was a mediocrity

except he wasn't as his achievements demonstrate, he was just a contemporary of the greatest musical mind ever to live

christopher marlowe happening to be writing at the same time as william shakespeare does not actively detract from christopher marlowe's individual accomplishments as a playwright

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>>8925050
I'm not arguing against anybody's accomplishments, they're great no doubt about it. However, I made this thread to talk about raw talent. Unrivaled, nonpareil, something that would automatically bring you into the western cannon. There's a difference between eminence and genius. Not a lot of people can name christopher marlowe out of thin air like they would a Shakespeare. It's the difference between asking about Allegheny College and knowing about Harvard College.

>>8925067
Harvard University, my mistake.

>>8925067
You're obsessed with recognition and will never find happiness. Cheers.

>>8925071
Cheers

>>8925067
>something that would automatically bring you into the western cannon.
This statement is problematic, and bespeaks a serious and fundamental issue with how you imagine things to be that might not be that way. I'm not tryna burst any bubbles or disillusion any believers, but just explore this line of thinking. Try and describe how one would do this, like even in an optimal, utopic abstract sense.

>>8925149
I know a great work of philosophy when I see it, but I just can't write any good philosophy myself. I mean I'm working hard and trying to persevere in this "obsessional" state, as another anon said. He's probably right though. It's eating me alive. It's definitely an irrational impulse, I don't think I can describe it to you distinctly. I just want write great philosophy, that's it. Something inspired. I've lost some inspiration lately, hence the retarded thread. I should go back to work though. Fuck.

>>8925050
But Marlowe is garbage compared to Shskespeare

>>8924995

>When did you find out that you were doomed to be a Salieri rather than a Mozart?

Do you know how hard it is to write anything of literary quality, let alone lasting greatness?

Salieri managed to live and live well off his art; you should be so lucky!

>>8925401
Yeah

I'm tired of this thread already. Let it die.

>>8925015
>>8925050
Then how come I quite unironically and literally listen to nothing but Mozart, but would never dream of doing the same with a lesser composer?

>>8924995
Well, for one the entire Salieri thing is completely fictional.

For another, would you rather be Salieri or working as an accountant or some shit?

Also geniuses aren't known for living pleasant lives.

>>8926355
What's the point? Is your goal in life that a couple hundred years from now some guy posting on a chinese cartoon forum will listen to nothing but your music?

>>8926368
That's what I don't get about the argument. Great, a hundred years from now a bunch of whiney little tards I don't even identify with as being human are going to love my stuff. Won't that be great?

>>8926368
Yes, that is ascension

>>8926394
Then get on it.

>>8926403
I was not touched by God, that much is clear.

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as an aside, does anyone else think this movie really doesn't hold up? I watched it a week ago or so, and it's alright and everything....but I really don't think it came close to being the best movie of the year.

Fun fact: Jeffery Jones, the guy who played Emperor Joseph II, and the principle in ferri's buellers day off? He got arrested in 2002 for kiddy diddling.

>>8924995
>Salieri

don't flatter yourself senpai

>>8926455
The 80s were a low point for cinema, look at the other Best Picture winners of that decade. Amadeus was the best of the Best Picture winners in the 80s. The only other film that comes close is The Last Emperor.

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Where Salieri failed was that he wanted the glory/fame that came with talent, instead of doing it for the sake of the art itself. You can tell when people are writing books/making films/creating songs just for the fame. And then they, like Salieri, wonder why they just don't "got it" like people like Mozart do.

Some people are born with the right brain set-up, some are born into the right family in the right country at the right time, and some have both. But there is nothing as propelling for talent as raw practice.

Haha, I'd be all right. Most of us will never even come close to being a Salieri, let alone a Mozart.

i always sorta waited, thinking there'd be a point in my life where things just click into place and i lift off like a rocket.

now i think i'm a smart guy. i think there's a certain cutoff perhaps, but in general, geniuses are just people who are somewhat smart, somewhat creative, have a somewhat unique perspective ... and most importantly the circumstances and upbringing that enables them to live to their full potential.

my upbringing was garbage. not good, not bad, mostly bland, somewhat sheltered. i never learned the value of hard work, never learned to take responsibility, basic things like that, i was raised to be inoffensive and mediocre and i've failed to become even that. at 25 i'm unemployed and on the dole and i struggle with basic shit like cleaning my god damn room, not that it matters much since noone visits ever anyways.

i still hope for the day where i suddenly see the light and find some unlikely untapped source of endless energy that'll catapult me into a life of passion, fulfillment, dedicated work, a healthy social life etc but in all likelihood what's gonna happen is i'll stay on the dole till the dole office gets on my case to much and my savings runs out, and i'll get the next min wage job, rinse repeat, kill self once i hit my mid thirties

i don't need to be a mozart, but i long to be a (william) stoner, i feel a deep sympathy toward that character, but i have no dedication or work ethic, i'm hollow

>tfw I'm a genius
feels good man

>>8924995
If you were a Mozart you'd know at the age of 4, retard.

>>8927522
Cool lad. Whatcha up to

>>8925163
I get what you mean, anon. I've followed the golden thread and unraveled a line of thought that has brought me to the point of breakthrough and ecstasy, but when I try to write it or explain it, there's just too much. Yet, I'll see ideas or expressions in art that connect, and it's like puzzle pieces being left in many different rooms of a mansion that I just don't have big enough arms to carry and put together for people. It's just the baggage of language that makes for our difficulties, I suspect. Future technologies will allow us to communicate more efficiently, I hope, and we will finally be able to put it all together. Keep the faith, fellow cripple of the embodied spirit...

>>8927651
>I've followed the golden thread and unraveled a line of thought that has brought me to the point of breakthrough and ecstasy
faggot

>>8927651
go read wittgenstein, he had literally the same problems as you

>>8925071
/thread

>>8925067
If you ask 10 people who is Shakespeare, they will give shitty remarks and maybe, maybe you find someone who is well-versed enough to start a discussion.
But if you ask 10 people who is Marlowe not all will recognize, but the ones that do surely will have much to talk about.

Between being recognized by a bunch of plebs or have few passionate people discussing my works, I'd get the latter easily.

(excuse my english, non-english speaker)

>>8925015

He was not at all a mediocrity, in fact he was one of the leading composers of his day. Please consider the fact that the movie you likely got this misconception from has been dubbed one of the most historically inaccurate movies ever along with Braveheart.

Yeah, he wasn't as good as Mozart, but none ever was or ever will be. If you compare yourself with the greatest there ever was of course you will come out short.

>>8928187

Also, I'd like to add Mozart was born into a family where his father (an accomplished musician himself) had the wealth and opportunity to teach his children music in a very rigorous way that would be considered child abuse today from the ripe age of 3. This, combined with Mozart's "natural talent" paved his way to the history books. His sister got the same treatment, but she didn't have "it".

You can compare it with the Jacksons in modern times. That whole family got abused and terrorized by their father to develop their musical ability much in the same way as Mozart, yet Michael Jackson was the only one who achieved stardom.

Both Mozart and Michael Jackson suffered immensely under their own genius and training, and you can argue whether it was worth it or not.

>>8927360

You need discipline, not inspiration. Inspiration is unreliable and fleeting, discipline is forever.

>>8924995
>be 13
>quit piano after two lessons

mid twenties now - will i ever be able to appreciate classical music?

>>8925010

Have you even watched Amadeus??

>>8925163
>I just want write great philosophy, that's it. Something inspired.

If this is truly how you think, your primary desire is to "write great philosophy", for the prestige of it, rather than engage deeply in a specific issue or subject and accept whatever pops out of your own grappling, then that is a problem and I feel you are better off removing yourself from the vagueness of your delusion.

>>8927651
>Yet, I'll see ideas or expressions in art that connect

What specific forms of art? This is important, because I have much to discuss on the matter.

>>8925027
>Wagner's complete work of art is just outside of my grasp

Why are you concerned about anime for this purpose? Vidya is right now the most total medium ripe for creating gesamtkunstwerks, and capable of subsuming every other medium and then some, save for the presence of live actors.

You won't achieve anything without hard work. I know this sounds really trite but while we all have inherent strengths and weaknesses but your strength will go completely to waste if you don't do something with them by practicing and applying them. You don't expect any great painter to just paint technically brilliant just from their personal genius and inspiration. The same goes for writing, cooking, music, photography, dance, shitposting. Don't just look at these glorified geniuses thinking this is how one becomes an artist. You're not shit out into the world a master of you technique.

>>8924995
>implying
I have a natural drawing ability and color sense

>>8928308
>mid twenties now - will i ever be able to appreciate classical music?

It's entirely possible, I went from having no understanding of classical at 20, to being able fully comprehend the structure of symphonies a few years later. My current project is to explain exactly how this is possible and how to go about achieving this and what specific effects this has on your mental processing, in more substantial detail than anyone else has so far. If you want to be serious about this, I'd be quite happy if you were willing to become one of my guinea pigs.

>>8928406

This. I think one of the greatest wisdoms that our age has seemed to forgotten is that you really have to dedicate yourself, no matter what you do. Let's take music, even if you have the most amazing natural talent you STILL have sit there for 12 hours every day to hone your craft, and this discipline can only be learnt by forcing yourself. This is why you never see more of that child prodigy you saw 10 years ago, they floated on their natural talent and got superseded by the less naturally talented who had to work harder for their ability, thus learning the discipline of practice.

You really have to structure your life around honing your craft, whatever it is if you wanna be a "someone", let alone one of the "greats".

This doesn't apply to just music either, but pretty much anything people consider art or entertainment. Even the most mediocre stand-up comedian you can think of have dedicated their life to honing their craft, going to 6-7 clubs a night to perform, to cram as much experience they can under their belt. The shitty mainstream writer that people only buy the books of in airports probably sat there all day writing and writing, honing his craft as well.

Today sadly, the mainstream thought is that you are born with enough talent or the right personality for whatever you shtick is, splash a bit of luck in there and boom, there you go. Everyone thinks you can just stumble into success, all it takes is that lucky youtube video to catapult me into fame, or maybe if i get enough instagram followers, or something.

I've rambled long enough.

>>8928406

Mozart began studying music seriously when he was barely a toddler. He might have had natural talent, even though he came from a family of musicians, but he also worked his tits off his entire life at it.

>>8928308
most people appreciate classical music without realising it; in movies or as a backdrop to commercials etc. i played some classical to my friends when they were tripping and they loved it.

i think most people are just intimidated by it. like a lot of modern art, you go to the museum and it's like what and people feel like they're dumb but really, maybe it resonates with you, maybe it doesnt, sometimes you lack an understanding of background / context but in general, just unclench your asshole and start with something light/neoclassical, see if you like it. i love to listen to philip glass when i work on stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wkof3nPK--Y

also, concerts. i usually dont like concerts / festivals because i have the assburgers and the whole setting triggers me the fuck out but classical concerts are something else. a good orchestra, in a venue with good acoustics, that's something else bruh

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>>8928395
Not that anon, but I totally agree. Acting on film is a stale replication of stage performances, which are unsurmountable because of how alive the theatre is. Its a shame vidyagames came about as film became a business instead of an art because we could have had our French New Wave of game development.

>>8926658
>Where Salieri failed was that he wanted the glory/fame that came with talent, instead of doing it for the sake of the art itself.
This. If you do it for fame, you're doing it wrong.

>>8928528
Yeah, but at the same time, if nobody cares about you're work, you're doing it wrong too.

>>8928543

Not necessarily, as long as you are happy with what you do that should be enough. Recognition on top of that is just greedy, considering how hard it is to be happy with what you produce in the first place.

>>8928543
That's actually wrong.

>>8928557
Yeah, keep telling yourself. Get comfortable in the total failure.

>>8928511
>most people appreciate classical music without realising it; in movies or as a backdrop to commercials etc.

No, my thesis is that the complete opposite is the case. Most people simply will not be able to understand classical music proper, which is heavily dependent on the ability to perceive particular structural elements. I don't even believe that most people are capable of perceiving tonal music, and will find any piece based around keeping track of a tonic to be incomprehensible, which is something that surprised me isn't more acknowledged.

> i love to listen to philip glass when i work on stuff
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wkof3nPK--Y

Philip Glass is tonal in only the most base sense. The stuff you've posted is minimalist in precisely all the ways which allows plebs who don't understand classical music to think they do. Most movie music is like this.

I doubt that you'd be inclined to listen to this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAgdd2VqLVc

>>8928395
>Vidya is right now the most total medium ripe for creating gesamtkunstwerks
vidya is shit and will ever be a real art form
get your head out of /v/'s ass

>>8928573
I'd be happy for you to explain why it is not capable of this.

>>8928566

Actually, you are the one who will fail with that attitude. If you don't want to do something great simply and PURELY for the greatness of it, but rather for the glory of it you will never have the motivation to actually achieve the great thing you want to do.

Fame and glory is simply not a great enough motivator to achieve true greatness, only the pure desire to actually do the thing you want to do for your own sake will keep you motivated.

Your goals are superficial, thus your art will be superficial.

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>>8928543
Depends. I remember Alejandro Gonzalez Inarritu said if he was the only person on the planet he wouldn't make a film because nobody would watch it. But then I think Inarritu is an oscar-bait hack. Meanwhile, Terrence Malick has made incredible films and doesn't even show up to award ceremonies. He had to be persuaded to sit through the 6-hour cut of The Thin Red Line to decide on what will be edited out. I remember someone said he makes films only for himself and that he doesn't care if anyone ever sees his work. I don't think he's that far on the extreme (Lynch seems to care less about who sees his films) but instead has found a great balance.

>>8925021
It's not so bad.
If you cannot be Hitler, at least you can tutor up the next one. What counts is victory at last.

>>8924995

Never, because I realized long ago that all that should matter to me is what happens when I'm alive. Having your music played across the ages is nice, but you're still dead. It's a romantic notion of immortality but those who are immortal in this sense often had the worst lives -- Dante, Mozart, Chopin, Beethoven, it really goes on and on. They consumed their lives for immortality in death, and those few got it. What you don't realize is that many nearly good or equal talents also worked towards this end and their books have been out of print for hundreds of years, never to even be rediscovered once a year or decade or even century. They're dead. But so are their Mozart peers.

I'm fine being happy with my legacy among the living. Immortality? Who cares? Only those who have been conned with the Nietzschean hymns of romantic yesteryear. Sometimes the Overman isn't the immortal Mozart, nor the Salieri, but their chimneysweepers who go home to a happy family and a warm home.

>>8928593
>But then I think Inarritu is an oscar-bait hack
FUCKING THANK YOU!

>>8925021

Most real geniuses didn't consider themselves geniuses either.

Only weirdo sub-par jackoffs like Kanye go around calling themselves geniuses

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>>8928622
Him and Dali. Coincidentally, Kanye seems to be making the same descent into mediocrity and self-destruction that Dali eventually did.

>>8928593
>Alejandro Gonzalez Inarritu said if he was the only person on the planet he wouldn't make a film because nobody would watch it.

That's a cute thing to say but....really? Come on dude.

>Terrence Malick has made incredible films and doesn't even show up to award ceremonies

Yeah, but just because he doesn't accept awards doesn't mean his films aren't popular. People have been eagerly watching his shit since the 70s. He's hardly a nobody.

>I remember someone said he makes films only for himself and that he doesn't care if anyone ever sees his work

Uh huh. Easy to say when people are already watching it.

>>8928636

Dali has lasting appeal among normies though, and can arguably be called a lasting name in art. Ask any retard on the street about the painting "With them droopy clocks and shit" and they know the painting you're talking about.

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>>8928618
Lubezki's cinematography was WASTED on The Revenant's banal story.

>>8928245
I think it would be easier to be disciplined if you knew what you want and where to specialize in. Literature is for me a hobby. I work as an engineer and I don't believe I could make true progress in the science of engineering. Perhaps if I was a biologist I might have had a shot at it. Like the previous poster I wish some passion would flame up in my heart, but so far I haven't found anything that truly, completely, interests me.

>>8928644

>Aww yeah! Dat drippy clock nigga! I know dat shit!

>>8928664

kek

>>8928439
would this be transferable to other topics? "How to rewire your brain to truly embrace literature whole"

>>8928640
Maybe I wasn't clear on what I was saying: I think Inarritu's "only person on the planet" point is dull and I wasn't saying Malick's films don't achieve popularity but that he doesn't seem to care about receiving recognition/acclaim.

>>8928685
>doesn't seem to care about receiving recognition/acclaim

That's easy to say, when you already have it, though.

>>8928705

this

"ok so like, you people who like my work are BENEATH ME, even though I was groveling to you when I was in my 20s and maybe 30s while I building up an immortal reel so that I could direct better and better projects and become famous enough so that I can pretend I hate being famous"

in reality 90% of these people are really just pretending for the persona. the other 10% are psychologically damaged

>>8928705
Yeah, but it's also easy to say about all the artists I know who don't receive recognition and yet are still passionate about their work. You only hear about people who are ambivalent to their fame because, well, they're famous. All the people who do what they love whether or not they get acclaim just keep on truckin.

>>8928681
>would this be transferable to other topics?

Absolutely. My theory is highly relevant to appreciation of literature, and poetry in particular. I conjecture that the ability to understand the high level structure of Art music and the ability to intuitively appreciate the form and imaginative meaning of poetry and advanced prose stem from the development of the same mental ability, which is a significant aspect of my framework. This is something that I only discovered within the previous year, and which was the impetus for pursuing this work more seriously.

>>8928743

And....they're successful, because they died and nobody cared about their work but....they liked it?

>>8928729
I can imagine to hate being famous. Ideal would be to be respected by your peers, while being unknown to the masses. Being famous must be like a golden prison.

>>8928567
i posted glass because it's accessible. nothing wrong with glass. it's classical either way, you just have a very specific definition.

the beethoven piece reminds me of some more amelodic aphex twin stuff. i can see how one might appreciate it, if you appreciate following the music, rather than drifting away, carried by it, having to figure it out like an engaging riddle. ofc i do have a hard time getting into it, hearing it for the first time and in a setting like this. which isnt so surprising since it appears you posted the most hardcore example of a pretty specific type of classic you could find

> A massive double fugue, it was universally condemned by contemporary critics. A reviewer writing for Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung in 1826 described the fugue as "incomprehensible, like Chinese" and "a confusion of Babel".[1]
are you saying those people didnt appreciate tonality?

it's simply more complex and inaccessible than classical music usually is. i also doubt you have it as figured out as you'd like since

> critics fail to agree on its character.[42] Robert Kahn says "it presents a titanic struggle overcome.".[43] Daniel Chua, on the contrary, writes, "The work speaks of failure, the very opposite of the triumphant synthesis associated with Beethovenian recapitulations."[44] Stephen Husarik, in his essay "Musical direction and the wedge in Beethoven's high comedy, Grosse Fuge op. 133", contends that in the fugue, Beethoven is actually writing a parody of Baroque formalism. "The B Fuga of op.133 stumbles forward in what is probably the most relentless and humorous assertion of modal rhythms since 12th century Notre Dame organum."[45] Robert Kahn disagrees: "...the comparison to comic music is surprising. There is nothing comic about the Grosse Fuge..."[46]

i still think appreciation of classical, or any music really, is universal, since it's based on something intrinsically human, a structure, like math; complexity is just a sliding scale, there's no specific point where it goes from pleb to überman tier

when it's more complex, it'll require some effort or dedication, but it still follows that same basic principle ... you fucking pseud

"people will find it incomprehensible", it's incomprehensible -- likely by design and on purpose. because it's unexpected. like reading finnegans wake going in expecting dubliners.

you do realise that kind of elitism drives people away from classic, and hence from getting balls deep into classic, to the point where they're acquainted enough with the core concepts that they might appreciate a piece like this, which the most esteemed critics back then even had some trouble appreciating.

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>>8928729
But I think with Malick it's just because he isn't interested. It's not a power thing. He didn't grovel in his early career, in fact he was a philosophy major at Harvard and taught at MIT before he decided to make films. And even then he stopped making films for two decades after Days of Heaven, which received a TON of love, and went to Europe to be an apprentice baker (although the details of his life are unclear, since he is immensely private).

>>8928764
>you do realise that kind of elitism drives people away from classic, and hence from getting balls deep into classic, to the point where they're acquainted enough with the core concepts that they might appreciate a piece like this, which the most esteemed critics back then even had some trouble appreciating.

it's cognitive dissonance present in all areas of art right now. Appealing to the masses is considered low brow and not "art" even though Shakespeare was art AND appealed to the masses. But then these same retards cry that we live in an era of "anti-intellectualism" because nobody will read their postmodern Joshua Cohen books about a magical jewish scrotum story that takes place over a hundred years in a magical realist academic "tour de force" way yada yada yada

It's amusing and sad. Tons of academic composers loathe Shostakovich because he wasn't exploring post-tonal systems like his peers, but then give some normie Shostakovich's First Symphony and they generally eat it up

>>8928705

Not him, but I am an amateur musician. Bear with me.
Out of the many hours of music I've recorded over the years there are a few minutes that I personally think are some of the best music ever made. I'm not saying it's objectively the best music of course, in fact 99% of the planet would hate it, but I made it for me, not for them. TO ME, nothing sounds as good as what I made myself due to it adhering 100% with my own taste.

Now isn't this enough, you think? After years and years of practice I've finally made something I think sounds great, I have realized my vision and brought something into the world. This in and of itself is orgasmic enough.

If that Inarritu guy really would just stop making movies just because someone wouldn't be there to suck his dick for it, maybe he just likes blowjobs instead of creating art.

>>8928784
>everyone successful went to Harvard
Why do I even live

>>8928759
I'd say so, yeah. It all depends on the individual, though. Some people want to create work that resonates with others, some use their craft as a vessel for personal discovery, others just like doing something well. The value of fame is probably inflated in our culture, especially with how bent on luck it has become with "going viral."

>>8928795
Not the anon you're replying to, but do you have a link to where I can listen to your stuff, man?

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>>8928795
>If that Inarritu guy really would just stop making movies just because someone wouldn't be there to suck his dick for it, maybe he just likes blowjobs instead of creating art.

Well said!

>>8928817
Cognitive bias, my friend. We don't notice all the successful people who didn't go to Harvard.

>>8928852
That's because there aren't you fucking moron

>>8928862
I mean we don't remember the fact that a successful someone didn't go to Harvard but do remember when people do.

>>8928764
>since it appears you posted the most hardcore example of a pretty specific type of classic you could find

Yes, that was my intention. There are many more accessible Beethoven pieces that I'd still claim are incomprehensible to to the layman, but I wanted to make sure you were at least aware of the more difficult variety of pieces that do exist, as Philip glass movie music is far from most of what was written in the tradition, which does have to be actively followed, rather than "drifting away, [being] carried by it".

>are you saying those people didn't appreciate tonality?
No, as keeping track of the tonal nature of Beethoven's fugue is understandably more difficult than it was for most music at the time. I wouldn't expect anyone to comprehend it on first listening. What I'm saying is that, even for what would be considered more relatively accessible music like his 5th and 6th symphonies, a significant number of people have not developed the mental processing ability needed to experience them as intended, which I believe is a significant barrier to their appreciation that should be acknowledged, rather than brushed aside.

>I still think appreciation of classical, or any music really, is universal
And I don't, not because I'm elitist, but because I have personally experienced otherwise.

>there's no specific point where it goes from pleb to überman tier
And my experience is the opposite, I've found there are very specific aspects of music where you can go from complete incomprehension to being able to easily and readily understand them by effectively flipping a switch that enables this.

>>8928852
I saw this documentary the other day about how they made this hugely complex game that followed the rules of nature in making molecules and shit, even though they didn't tell the players that's what it was.

Anyway, the game caught on in smart people crowds, and they ultimately found that less than 10% of the players came from ivy league schools.

>>8928886
can you stop making big posts?

Just say something like:
>I'm a dumb shit.

It carries basically the same message, trust us.

>>8925067
yeah I dealt with this shit on a much less grand scale
>captain of swim team
>pretty shitty tho, finally have hit puberty enough by senior year to actually build muscle and endurance
>swim distance, doing bretty good tbqh
>15 year old punk who is 6'4" and has shitty form routinely hits close to my times in the 500
>one day punk beats me
>I try my hardest at practice to keep improving
>plateau.jpg
>he overtakes me as fastest 500 swimmer

I identify so much with Salieri

>>8928917
neither of you are swimmers anymore.

How's it applicable?

>>8928917
>>8928928
Not anon, but it seems like it's the same or at least similar dynamics on a micro scale.

>>8928928

it's applicable because I had been swimming for years, working as hard as I could to be great at the sport, only to be beaten by a runny-nosed fifteen year old blessed with physical prowess when I wasn't. Developed talent vs natural talent essentially

>>8928947
Not really applicable, because you're talking about a couple of high school idiots, neither of whom are serious swimmers.

If this was the Olympics, and you had one guy swimming since he was 5, and some punk rock guy who started swimming 4 years ago and comes in and rules, well ok then.

You are talking about two people who were professional musicians, ya know? Not two fag choir singers in high school.

>>8928947

>Developed talent vs natural talent essentially

Mozart started his rigorous training as a musician before he could even speak. If Mozart's father did that today he would've been jailed for child abuse.

This natural talent thing really, really needs to die. I blame shows like American Idol and bullshit movies like Amadeus for this myth.

>>8927905
You need a hug.

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best character

>>8928960
lmao, perhaps its just the egocentrism of highschool, but swimming certainly seemed like my life at the time.

>>8929018
I agree. In my experience, highschool felt like the whole world was contingent on small things like sports and girlfriends.

>>8928371
>What specific forms of art? This is important, because I have much to discuss on the matter.
Music, often. Sometimes images, sometimes a collection of words, sometimes just looking at a person's face. Those ineffable moments where you aren't a person, but instead melt away into a pure feeling that you can only hope is somehow recorded by the collapsing wave functions of the point of observation that you don't even have ownership of, but that you hope for a femtosecond can be experienced by every manifestation of consciousness at the same time. It's actually not even describable as a form of art, but more like an epiphany that art is everything, and every attempt to capture it is a shadow, but yet here is something that has triggered that realization, like the pleiades when you view them from the corner of your eye, which collapses back into a blur when you try to focus. That sort of thing.

>>8928978

except music is one of the few areas (math, languages, etc.) where prodigies ARE a thing. Messiaen, for example; took to piano on his own very young and was a genius very young. Shostakovich. Etc.

Then again there are many "late" blooming composers. Wagner began around 18. Stravinsky was a dreadful composition student and began around 19 or 20 and sucked for the longest time even under Korsakov's personal tutelage (though he was extremely talented at the piano and was no stranger to music itself). Arnold Schoenberg was mostly self-taught and had no rigorous training until he was in his mid 20s and married to the sister of his tutor (Zemlinsky, an okish and minor composer. his Little Mermaid orchestral piece is good)

When it comes to literature and other things like that, prodigy rarely matters. What matters more is empathy with humans in general, book learning, and linguistic ability. The second two are built from reading. The former by actually understanding people and learning how to process that into literature.

>>8929069
>Those ineffable moments where you aren't a person, but instead melt away into a pure feeling that you can only hope

So you are describing the aesthetic experience and its parallels with mysticism as many philosophers like Nietzsche have done in the past. Most of them have admitted the difficulty of putting this into words.

>is somehow recorded by the collapsing wave functions of the point of observation
Now you're getting into what sounds like crazy quantum new age stuff.

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>>8929069
Reminds me a lot of Cy Twombly's paintings and Terrence Malick's films (who I'm please to see was already mentioned in this threat).

I like you, anon. Have you read any Derrida?

>>8924995
>mfw not even a salieri

>>8928893
What game? This seems interesting.

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>>8925015
That movie was a complete lie, he was actually really good (fpbp)

Try this
http://reverent.org/mozart_or_salieri.html

>>8928495
The kid certainly was on the spectrum too. He could watch an opera once and transcribe the entire thing on the way home.

>>8929274
I don't remember, look up the verner herzog doc about the net.

>>8925074
that's all you had to say to him? surprised you didn't re-evaluate your entire life after that

or are you just in too deep

>>8924995
I'm the guy bringing whipped cream dessert at the beginning of the movie.

>>8927973
no, he didn't

>>8929710
made me lol

>>8929710
now THAT would be a comfy job

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>>8924995
>tfw I'm doomed to be a Mozart rather than a Mozart
I don't want to die

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>>8926455
>Emperor
Jeffery Jones was easily the weakest part of the movie. The womans breasts were the best part.

>>8929274

Oh, I don't know, just a little game called Magic: The Gathering. You might have heard of it

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>>8930160
>Elizabeth Berridge <3

>>8926455
i think it's pretty good, the movie may be showing it's age but the story isn't

>>8929137
>Now you're getting into what sounds like crazy quantum new age stuff.
Yuppers. I plead guilty to that. Not big into labels, but I do at least feel like I can make some pretty decent inroads into explaining a lot about time, fate, intuition, and consciousness, and quantum mechanics plays pretty heavily into it.

>>8929198
I most definitely have read Derrida, and consider deconstruction to be among my earliest dalliances with understanding how post-structuralism can actually be a structure in a sort of meta-postmodern sense. I'll have to look at more Twombly (though his name rings a bell for reasons I can't quite pin down) and Malick. Thanks; I like you too :)

>>8930284
Wait - really? I thought it was gonna be agar.io. It's not agar.io?

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>>8924995
>Mozart here

Yea it sucks. No gets you. Even when they do, they don't get the degree to which you wish you had really accomplished. And the fact that only after my death will real glory be attatched to my name is like the last nail to my coffin. I'm still alive! Fucking golden eggs!

>>8926455
>He got arrested in 2002 for kiddy diddling.
hahahaha no fuckin way. i thought he was a lot funnier in amadeus than in ferris bueller

>>8925010
this tdbh

EVERYBODY THAT IDENTIFIES WITH OP'S POST IS AN EGOTISTIC VAIN RETARD

GO READ OZYMANDIAS BY SHELLEY OR WALK THROUGH A GRAVEYARD

IMMATURE DELUDED SPECIAL SNOWFLAKES WHO PROBABLY HAD HELICOPTER PARENTS

>>8927360
Nothing will ever click anon. It clicked for Mozart, Da Vince, Darwin; these guys were magnetic attracted for their vocations since they were very young; also, they didn't have to take part in a mechanical educational system. It would've been a loss of time to them.

To be honest, your skillset, the things you tolerate doing more time than other people are better indicators of remarkable things you could do, than any half-assed passion or fleeting inspiration.

>>8930551

>WALK THROUGH A GRAVEYARD

Look at me everyone, I am superior to you because i have surface-level knowledge on Heidegger! I am better than you!

>>8930551
>Complains about egoism
>Is hurling insults at strangers in the belief that an all-caps screed filled with ill-defined charges will somehow bring them to their self-described superior awareness
How's that irony, anon? I always find it delicious.

>>8926658
>>8928528
pure ideology

>>8924995
>watches amadeus once

>>8928395
Video games are too self-contained to be a complete work of art, while anime encompasses everything, the show, the LN/manga, the audio dramas, the live shows, the merchandise.

>>8928320
mozartian in it's simplicity

>>8928406
>You won't achieve anything without hard work.
Most likely not with hard work either though.

>>8931155
You know this doesn't deserve a response.

>>8930342
that's because Pushkin came up with it

>dedicating your life to art rather than class struggle

>>8931201
Nobody gives a shit about that anymore. Now it's the poc and lgbtpq struggle

>>8931201
>>>/pol/

>>8927360
>now i think i'm a smart guy
clearly, you're wrong

>>8927360
Start doing roids

srs

>>8927526
Not true, plenty of child prodigies that crash hard or never ever even get close to reaching the pinnacle of expression like Mozart did.

>>8928187
>He was not at all a mediocrity, in fact he was one of the leading composers of his day.
He is a mediocrity in a historical context. Obviously, he can't be considered a first rate composer like F.J. Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert etc.

But the fact is that he does not even reach the heights of the second-rate composers, like Pergolesi, von Dittersdorf, von Weber, Gluck, the brothers Bach etc...

His sole fame lies in this play and film, as a contrast to the genius of W.A. Mozart.

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>>8926532
>The 80s were a low point for cinema,

>>8931275

>He is a mediocrity in a historical context

except in the historic context he was regarded as probably the finest composer in europe

>>8931281
As regarded by posterity, even at the tail end of classical music he was forgotten.

>>8931287

alright so by your standards, caravaggio is a 'mediocre' artist because he was forgotten after he died and michelangelo was a genius so that means caravaggio is shit

>>8931294
No, Caravaggio would be someone first rate, but as I said before, Salieri is not even really a second rate composer.

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>>8924995
I'm a mozart.

>>8927360
Here's what I suggest: embrace suffering, just take that fucking leap, use that remaining neuroplasticity to completely reverse yourself.
You're in this predicament where the only way to get your happiness is to give it up, the only way to get isaac is to kill him, if you get me.
You're paralyzed because you know you're a genius and you don't want to waste it on rote 9-5 work, and whatever work you do now, you do begrudgingly and only because you have to.
You gotta become a different person. It's a long process, but at the same time it only takes a moment. Forget about time, human foresight is a deterrent, you don't need it. You have be a different person at 2:40PM than you were at 2:39:59PM. Every second is a chance to be reborn. Fuck your identity, there's nothing in you worth preserving, you either destroy your dreams with your own hands or you look at them from a distance until they turn back on you in murderous fury.
"My inheritance is become to me as a lion in the wood: is hath cried out against me, therefore have I hated it."

>>8931303

Whatever your system is, it's arbitrary as fuck. Salieri, who achieved extremely prestigious posts by his own merit, and was known to his contemporaries as the greatest composer in Europe, is a "historical mediocrity" for you but you put Caravaggio, who was regarded indifferently by his contemporaries and forgotten in history - the definition of a "historical mediocrity" - on a pedestal

>>8931318
I'll admit I don't know shit about the visual arts, but I thought Caravaggio was highly regarded, at least now. Judging by the fact that I know who it is despite knowing little about the subject and not really being interested in it at all attests to that.

However, I am very interested in music and have pursued it academically in the past, and despite the fact that Salieri did indeed hold a high post, being the court composer of the Emperor and more or less dominating the opera scene for decades, and did leave a legacy in the sense that he taught Schubert and Beethoven most famously (also someone else; possibly Liszt if I'm remembering correctly?) His works more or less completely disappeared from the public eye throughout the 19th century following his death and he was a literally who until the play Amadeus. I literally can't think of a single 19th century composer that studied the scores of Salieri, while many studied the scores of W.A. Mozart.

>>8931332

>many studied the scores of W.A. Mozart

I have a hard time understanding the arguments of people who think that Mozart being on the godlike genius level somehow actively detracts from the achievements of others.

You can only make that argument in comparison. Salieri is inferior in comparison to Mozart. Doesn't mean Salieri lacked talent as an independent individual and by virtue of his accomplishments he was way beyond the mediocre

>>8931279
mirin Crom gains
fuark

>>8931275
>>8931303

http://reverent.org/mozart_or_salieri.html

Put your money where your mouth is. I dare you to get more than 5 of these right.

>>8931649
>excerpts
wew lad

>>8931749

Well, if Salieri is so incredibly shitty and worthless as you suggest you should easily be able to tell him apart from the eminent Mozart, even with just excerpts.

>>8931649
>sound clips
I don't listen to music, I only read scores... I'm not a normie degenerate.

>>8931824
I didn't suggest anything of the sort. Anyway I could only be bothered to do the first four and got them right.

>>8929031
I thought so, too.
And now many years later I start to think that it might've been true after all.

>>8929709
I'm passionate about philosophy, I didn't read all the books I did for the recognition, but recognition plays an important role too. I want to be great.

>>8924995
Mozart was a bad composer who died too late, rather than too early. His work has potency no greater than inter-office memos.

>>8928439
original guy - yeah ill be a guinea pig.

>>8929274
Foldit. They really need to hire a web designer

>>8926355
Because you're a dilettante

>>8933395
When did you hear Mozart perform, again?

>>8933712
When did you learn to read, again?

>>8933395
Mozart is a very over-rated
composer, whose music is riddled with appalling cliches (and yes they were
cliches in his day not just ours). He has brief moments of quality, but the
music always reverts to an appallingly obvious and over-used cadence, after
a few brief seconds of interest. The early classical style was a case of
musical degeneration, not any kind of real advancement. It moves
away from the tight structure and advanced counterpoint of Bach, but does
not achieve the same emotional quality as romantic music. I regard Mozart as
an important developmental composer, but this does not make him a great
composer. I think it is a case of Mozart
having taken a step backwards, to allow later composers to take two steps
forwards.

>>8929274

I though it may have been this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_Game_of_Life

But I haven't seen the film and rereading the comment it isn't clear if it's the same one. Regardless it is quite interesting.

>>8933395
>>8933778
>>>/mu/classical/

ITT: People who couldn't understand the allegorical meaning behind OP's post
Of course autists will always resort to the actual history rather than just taking OP's post at face value and referring to the themes found within the movie.

>>8933820
>the movie
>not the play
pleb

>Salieri
>bad
kys

>>8930359
Nah, I was just fucking with you LOL

>>8931311
Wow, anon. This is beautiful.

>>8935121
Points. I loled.

>>8933778
>>8933395
Fuck off Glenn Ghoul you autistic lutheran cuck

>>8933410
Ok then, the first thing I want you to do is a little test of your musical ability. Given you've expressed a desire to better appreciate classical music this should be easier to do with a subject as willing as yourself. This is something so that we can better understand how it is you hear music (and secondly if my own understanding is correct), rather than something you ought to feel any guilt or inadequacy over passing or failing.

I want you to listen to this Chopin piece:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86WGK9xwjTw

There are two main components you should be able to hear, the repeating base melody, and the treble themes sounding above. The bass-line should be fairly accessible and follow-able by virtually anyone who isn't tone death. However, the higher melodies may strike you as dissatisfying or difficult to follow and appreciate if lack the ability to follow traditionally tonal themes. If you do have this ability, which I want to test here, then in listening you should be able to perceive voice like qualities in the melodies, it should sound as if the piano is projecting multiple voices, communicating with each other in partially complete sentences responding to each other's emotional evocations, mutually attempting to resolve their problems as the piece progresses to the end. If you don't feel this immediately, then it may take a few listens to become familiar with the structure of the piece, which you can do at your leisure.

But, if after listening to it a number of times, you feel none of what I'm talking about, you may completely lack the ability to follow tonally based themes and transformations of such thematic material. This should be of no great concern, as this can be learned, but it means that you won't be able to appreciate more advanced classical forms just yet, and I'd recommend staying away from things like symphonies until you learn to unlock this ability. If this is the case, I'd advice you to start listening to piano sonatas and nocturnes by Beethoven and Chopin respectively, and possibly single instrument concertos by Bach, Vivaldi and Mozart, with strong main melodies that you can focus on and keep track of. You will want to train your hearing by doing things like listening carefully to hear when given note its played multiple times in a melody and improve your ability to do this, which these animations can help with.

Tell me about yourself and what you want to know and I'll see if I can help better.

>>8933820
So you want us to take it as
>a great and well respected person isn't as good as this genius
Ok, I'll take being a great and we'll respected person with far above average talent and work ethic.
None of us are even halfway to being a Salieri.

>>8936211
i think i heard the 'voices' like you describe. not sure i have an explicit goal, just that maybe diving into classical music might teach me about music/sound generally and give me another source of material to enjoy and appreciate. not sure if i really got across what i want with that, but basically i'm open to the new experience. i'll listen to this a couple more times.

>>8928622
He's a fairly unlikeable personality but albums like Late Registration and My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy are some of the most self-conscious and twisted pop music of the last 20 years. He may not be a genius but he's definitely an amazingly gifted artist.

>>8936261
>i think i heard the 'voices' like you describe

If that's the case then you should have what it takes to start listening to symphonic material.

You won't necessary have the ability to understand the total structure and progression of a given piece, which is more abstract and may come later, and which is something I'm working on describing, but you can at least begin your journey proper if you wish to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRgXUFnfKIY

I feel this is naturally the best starting point. If you find can can honestly follow the drama of this movement then, and feel the high notes of the woodwinds crying out for compassion, then you have what it takes to dive into the classical repertoire.