Talk about the ubermensch, /lit/. Who or what fits your description?

shameless self-bump

Are truth and courage the same things?

Can you become the übermensch by rigorous study of philosophy and experiencing and understanding life's sufferings or must you be born innately great?

Nabokov

>>8778975
Good questions. I'll add more:

Is it not the case that suffering makes one great? Athletically, intellectually, in public life, however? Are great individuals simply those with the greatest capacity for suffering? Is suffering something people should simply internalize, or should they share it?

If one is born great, what obligations - if any - does one have to their fellow man? Is the ubermensch or great sufferer necessarily a heroic visionary-artist, or can they be philanthropic also? Both?

I don't have the answers to any of these...

The Overman is a real person, who grows and endures spiritual transformation and is initially as imperfect as any other thing in the world. There is nothing fantastical about his presence and the concept of miracle is absent here because ungodliness sits at the root of him. At the same time, he's far from a normal person, because he is much harder on himself than others and as a result has gained far more wisdom than others (wisdom loves a warrior).

The Overman's philosophy is useless to more than 99% of humanity, because it is so refined and unattainable to everyone else. It appears "abstract" and fantastical to others and does not provide direct benefits to them as a result. It's the most real philosophy out there, however. It's just not meant for the taste buds of everyone else. Even higher types, the most honorable and the healthiest / strongest in society, can only partially parse what the Overman is about.

But even if it is useless, it is still relevant. In fact, it is the most relevant thing in existence. Because wherever there is hierarchy there is a subtle striving towards the Overman again. Because the Overman is just the peak of a hierarchy, any hierarchy. For each hierarchy in the world there is an Overman to find, but ultimately there is only one Overman, because there is only one hierarchy: life itself.

>>8778912
Ernest Hemingway was uber

>>8779001
good post anon

so is the overman always contextual? a phenomenon or an event? makes sense to me

but what about aristocratic values then? or are these always pegged to wherever/whenever the overman appears?

teach me your ways senpai

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>>8778912
I think the God-kings of the Old Kingdom, as recorded in the Pyramid Texts, were pretty close to being Übermenschen.

>>8779001

Is there any example of an Overman in the known history ?

>>8779001
I enjoyed reading this mate, nice one.

>>8779274
no

What exactly is an overman like? Is he someone who is morally perfect? How would you describe the overman?

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>>8779274

>>8779274
Jesus desu

>>8779274
I've heard people say Napoleon and Beethoven

>>8780133
no he never considered them to be overmen. just great men.

>>8780227
Surely the people closest to being an Overman at the time

>>8779722
The ubermensch is a being that has evolved to the point where it can control and shape its own destiny and create its own morality

the Ubermensch will be from evolution; no living person now nor in Nietzsche's time could be one.

The Ubermensch is Nietzsche facing evolution and saying that they are what could come after us. Just one potential.

>>8780312
If I cannot become the Ubersmench can I come close? I study philosophy to become a fully formed individual. Is that goal achievable to someone who is socially and emotionally stunted?

>>8780312
This is correct, Nietzsche knew the moment Darwin's theory dropped that man was just one stage of a process

>>8779274
Trump

Practical steps:
-Become aware of most or all of your cognitive bias, recommended book: thinking fast and slow.
-Provide "proofs" to your morals. Why do you do unto others that which you want done unto you? Why be nice? Why does everyone deserve respect? You may find that in your reasoning you run into slippery slopes and morals based on practical rules of the land.
-Once you discern whether something ought to be practiced or not, and whether a virtue is valuable to you, reduce exposure to things that hurt the formation of that virtue and increase exposure to things that promote it. The things that promote virtues are almost always painful to endure (as aristotle noted) conversely, the wrong thing to do is often pleasureable because you've done the wrong thing for so long it's a habit.
-Live consciously: https://markmanson.net/this-is-water
- Be aware of the dunning kruger effect, confirmation bias and domain dependence (the likelihood not to notice things you've studied or prepared for in daily life or situations), pretty much goes back to the earlier point but these are the big ones.
-give your brain exposure to new situations; don't just cultivate one side of yourself (smart people seek refuge in being "right" and judgementally view people who are dumber, beautiful people quantify others on how they look etc.) stop fixating on arbitrary standards and seek to become a more well-rounded person through painful exposure to situations that break habits.
-Embrace the pain and view it as a challenge with a smile on your face.
-Accept truth, especially about yourself, even if its painful, if you suck at something get better do NOT rationalize.

After you get to that point where you you can do the above listed, you can call yourself a lion.

Then you have to provide proofs and unwire all the morals and habits you have that don't serve any practical purpose.

Then once you've learned to embrace adversity, destroy pre-existing patterns and beliefs you can be the child and create new values.

Just know that 99.99% of you will not make it past the camel stage.

It takes intelligence, tons of effort (in proofs and in being conscious enough to break lifelong habits), focus, a perverted sense of pleasure for challenge (high testosterone is a plus for this) and a sense of curiosity that outweighs the fear of the unknown.

Good luck nerds. I'm about 2/3 through the camel stage I'd say. The problem is that smart people are usually best at providing proofs, but suck at embracing challenge and pain. And badass dumb people find it easier to embrace challenge but complacently view anything that's "normal" as valuable or the way things should be.

tl;dr if you're smart gain balls, if you're dumb and have balls gain insight and new perspectives. If you have balls and smarts, create new values.

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>>8778912
Apologies for nerding with some vidya, but I always thought this quote had a lot going on.

What do I care for your suffering? Pain, even agony, is no more than information before the senses, data fed to the computer of the mind. The lesson is simple: you have received the information, now act on it. Take control of the input, and you shall become master of the output.

-Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang, Essays on Mind and Matter

>>8780547
Also, really good post anon.

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>>8780547
So... Is pic related ubermench?

>>8780547
this is unironically a 10/10 post

>>8780547
literally the best post I have seen so far

I have wondered if most people really have any genuine interest in an ubermensch. What I mean is they think the concept is interesting but if they actually met one would they feel anything for them? The stories say that an ubermensch is an outcast. Their role is sort of that of a musician or a leader of culture through subtle osmosis.

An ubermensch is not something that a person can become. It is a personality type. It is the same personality for every ubermensch. I dislike the term "ubermensch" because it sounds like it assumes superiority. I prefer to think of them like aliens sort of. It is possible to be like an ubermensch and if I'm being honest I consider this an enlightened state of being. Harlequins and jokers and crazy people are examples of an enlightened state of mind because they are free. People become upset because they think that they are careless. However, they might be crazy and disciplined. Maybe they are the only ones bold enough to care about everything. They take everything completely seriously and so they appear playful and dangerous.

It is really hard to talk about this subject. I could write a long embarrassing rant about it but the problem is we are talking about something that is supposed to be a mystery. Nietzsche got his concept of the ubermensch from the fictional character Bacchus. Other concepts that mean the same thing are the ouroboros, the philosopher's stone, the sanguine personality type (which is actually super rare), in some ways the concept of pi, maybe black holes considering they are self consuming. This type or this concept has been described as indescribable and paradoxical. It is amazing Nietzsche was able to talk about it so much. When the ubermensch archetype enters a story it becomes connected to an infinite number of themes and concepts. Gatsby is an ubermensch. I want to emphasize that there is a difference between someone awoken in the ubermensch style and an ubermensch. It is really obvious that Gatsby is an ubermensch because he throws parties, has an enigmatic smile, is sensitive and serious and obsessive. Of course some of his actions don't fit the type. Overall, when looking for ubermensch you have to pick up on their vibe. Their might be some clues but when you recognize the vibe you can spot them even when they are disguised. A few fictional ubermensch you might not have expected are: Azula from Avatar, Rorschach from Watchmen, Bubbles from The Power Puff Girls, Robin and Starfire from Teen Titans, Trunks from Dragonball Z. I could list many more if you are interested. Some obvious fictional ubermensch are: Pippi Longstocking, Radical Edward, Tigger the tiger, Maya the bee. Think about what all those characters have in common. Their appearances and circumstances are very different and they sometimes say and do things that might not fit the type but the vibe is there.

>>8778912
>What kind of regime or lifestyle would they have? What would they do?

They would spend time reflecting on the things they said and did. They would be considerate. They would look around a lot in order to take everything into consideration.

>Is ubermensch-philosophy underrated, overrated, properly rated? Does it belong in the past, or is it something that people now and in the future will be/should be paying attention to?

The ubermensch archetype continues to resurface.

>>8779274
I can tell you for sure that I am an ubermensch. I have a sanguine personality.

>>8780547
Let me ask you a question.

These practical steps suggest that man should question himself continuously. How do you derive power in a situation like that?

Iggy Pop desu

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>>8779274

By Nietzsche's own estimation:

>Caesar
>Napoleon
>Goethe
>Frederick the Great (maybe)
>Borgia

That's about it.

If Schopenhauer didn't go in the direction of pessimism (bordering on nihilism), then he would have almost certainly qualified too.

>>8781844
I must correct a typo:
There might be some clues but when you recognize the vibe you can spot them even when they are disguised.