Why have so few people written about the culture of video games?

>>8741418
>culture
Because escaping your shitty life and occasionally jerking off to cartoons doesn't constitute culture.

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>>8741429
Pseud detected.

Every element of society, every norm, every tradition, every minority group and minor hobby, represents the cultural whole. Video games rake in more money than mainstream cinema these days, and its nearly impossible to find someone under the age of 35 who doesn't play them.

>>8741418
Video Games are the new kid on the block. In the past, they were simplistic toys. Arcade games didn't exactly give much material. Still, movies like "War Games" were made. With the recent emergence of realistic virtual worlds and interactivity like never before, its inevitable that the next generation of authors will include video game elements in their works.

>>8741445
how is he a pseud? hes fucking right. youre a pseud, your entire post reads like a high school essay on video games

>>8741473
>personal attacks
>no substance
>defending lazy opinions

/lit/ is dead.

>>8741482
In his defense, there is already a board where people who play video games can jerk each other off.

Just because OP couched his question in terms of writing doesn't mean the subject matter isn't vidya.

There are an awful lot of near future works set in virtual worlds, like Reamde and Ready Player One.

>>8741482
this argument isnt worth wasting my effort on except for that post and this one desu

>>8741418
hundreds of people are writing essays about video game every week. gamergate would have never been a thing if cultural critique had not arrived to video games.

Ready Player One killed the genre for many years to come

>>8741418

It's an attractive activity because it offers immediate feedback for your skills/effort in a society with little to no chance of distinguishing yourself or improving your status.

That's all there is to say about it, really.

>>8741515
Is it time to for someone to start dumping the RPO quotes?

I see a lot of people interested in icycalm here. Some people are eager to jump in, others are intimidated. I've read his oeuvre about eleven times, so I just want say a few words and address people who are thinking about reading him or are just beginning.

Before you embark on your journey into the mind of a genius, you have to understand a few things that are very important. When we talk about icycalm, we’re talking about a man whose I.Q. could not be measured. Past 200, I.Q. tests get imprecise. We don’t know whether we’re dealing with a man with an I.Q. of 200 or 300 or what. We can’t measure it. When it comes to Icycalm-tier geniuses, the standard tests simply don’t apply. You see, Icycalm could have entered any field he wanted. He was a real-life Will Hunting. He could’ve been a doctor or a lawyer, or both, if he wanted. He could’ve been a pioneer in physics. He could’ve been a codebreaker for the NSA. But no. He decided to be a writer. He decided to devote his life to video games and to illuminating for us the way to critique them. That was the beauty and the tragedy of his life. In one way, it’s a blessing to have been born in Icycalm’s time, to be able to read his blog, to see his famous forum posts, which are already transforming people both intellectually and spiritually. On the other hand, I will surely die before we know even half of the secrets buried within the labyrinth of Orgy of the Will. That I consider a curse.

It’s been four years since Orgy of the Will was written and scholars have only begun to come to terms with its full implications. This is what you must understand. Icycalm reverse-engineered not only video game critique, but all of Western literature as well as language itself. Packed within Orgy of the Will is Hamlet, The Brothers Karamazov, Gravity’s Rainbow, Ulysses, and everything else. Hell, it even serves as an overview of human history, from dawn to today. It’s a web page you could spend a lifetime studying. A lifetime spent in bliss, no doubt. It would be more worthwhile to spend one’s life reading and rereading Orgy of the Will than to achieve being “well-read” in the traditional sense.

You must understand that, on your first time through, you will not understand everything Icycalm is trying to communicate to you. Don’t worry. He knew things about life that we won’t discover for decades. Your job is merely to get on the road. In the decades to come, we may, if we’re lucky, discover scientific applications for the new ways of thinking Icycalm gave us. We may have to throw out science altogether. We simply don’t know. For now, we have to be content with our vanguard roles. We are the ones who will break the ground and loosen the soil for Icycalm’s future interpreters. This is not only our pleasure, but our duty. And for that, as Icycalm famously said, "I wish you way more than luck."

>>8741517
I read the book but I would like to read some quotes again just to laugh

>>8741418

Believe it or not, video games just aren't as interesting as your stunted, sheltered mind thinks they are.

Video games specifically are a tiny part of broader topics that have been written about extensively, such as game theory or electronic media studies. Depending on what exactly interests you about video games other than emotional immaturity, those are two fields that you might find interesting, provided you aren't as stupid as you're coming off in this thread.

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>>8741527
muchas gracias mi amigo

seriously tho wouldn't it have been nice to have a 10% less crazy version of this guy? the arcade culture essay is legit interesting. video game "culture" is more interesting than ironic points of reference for aging gen x'ers but there still hasn't been anyone who namedrops baudrillard and the neetch to do so

i'm sure i sound like a shill. i'm not. just disappointed i guess. and i would have liked more from a guy who was trying to rip holes in space and time with his mind powers

he wanted to be the pauline kael of game criticism. it's not like that would have been such a terrible thing. is this not worth considering?

>tfw when maybe you really did drink the koolaid after all

>>8741680
>tfw can't tfw

>>8741418
because nobody wants to read that

>>8741418
There is a ton of literature on the subject of the culture of video games

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=culture%20of%20video%20games

>>8741527

Go away, Alex.

>>8741527
Yo, Alex. You grabbed our attention. Show us the finest selection of your posts and let us judge.

>>8741517
>Ready Player One
yes

>>8741418
1. They're fairly new products of creative imagination in human history.

2. There are already quite a few historical texts and documentaries on various areas of the video game world.

3. There are essays and papers being published across the world in various universities. Look it up. There's been texts on game theory and the science and art of game design for decades and decades.

4. There's Icycalm, who you posted, and he wrote quite a lot.

5. There are a ton of review sites across the web writing stuff.

>>8741418
Who is?

He looks like a penis morphed into a man.

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>>8741418
Too few? Too many have written about it.

>>8741445
>Pseud detected.
Says the frogger

I really liked IcyCalm's art essay and it really influenced my posting. Orgy of the will is obviously GOAT as well and filled with things I wish I had thought of first

game theory is nothing to do with "video game culture"

>>8741418
>It's a hobby that in this day is nearly as ubiquitous as watching television

Not a very interesting one.

There's the chronological history of its development, which has been done.

Outside of that, the only interest is in playing them. How many conversations (besides shit-posts and omg I'm so excited stuff on /v/) have you had about video games that have been interesting?

I can't imagine one. Please tell me about an interesting conversation you've had about video games. I'm open to listening.

>>8741851

You're retarded.

>>8741672
The most fedoracore post on /lit/ I've seen in a while.

>>8741873
I talk with my brother and friends about games all the time. If you're passionate about them, there's plenty to talk about, just like with movies or books. Not just talking about what you liked about the most recent games you played, or what you didn't like, but your thoughts on certain mechanics or design decisions, thoughts on how to tackle certain design challenges that you notice developers having, shooting out game ideas you have for feedback, comparing genres, discussing genres, discussing different reviewers or review sites, discussing overall response to certain games, discussing controversial topics that just came to light in the media (never seriously though, because all controversial talk is obviously clickbait retardation), talking about what from other mediums would make good games and how they'd work...

I could go on and on. I have hundreds of hours of talking with people about that shit behind me.

>>8741908

I don't really know what that means but I'm sure I deserve it.

>>8741516
Pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject.

Video games just poke reward centres in the brain. It is masturbation.

>>8741912
I understand discussing strategy ... but I'm with Ebert on this one.

It will never receive the mainstream high regard as a respected art form on the level that you give to it.

Mostly, video games are looked down at as tedious thumb sports.

It's the nerd olympics.

Personally, i'd rather watch the "special" olympics. Not that you aren't special, it's just that they aren't shy about it. They let their freak flag fly. Not that they have any control over it but it's funny to see.

So, I guess nerds are like "special" people who are using their mind control to force themselves to act in a someone socially acceptable normie fashion.

>>8741418
Because intelligent people don't play video games or at least don't give a shit about gaming "culture". Video games are just a culture industry plant to create false instant gratification to keep you docile. Games destroy people's lives and make them dumber.

That's a you need to know.

>>8741982
Darting your eyes about and coordinating them with your hand movements is kino.

>>8741912
Video games are products made by corporations to be sold for enjoyment. They are media and are arguably "low" art, but they will never be on the same level as literature, music, and the visual arts.

>>8741984
Moving your thumbs isn't exercise, fatass. Go outside.

>>8741990
>muh big bruvah

>>8741990
>arguably "low" art

Has anybody suggested that you are "too generous"?

>>8742000
>implying
Read Adorno, psued

>>8741996
You should see my thumbs.

>>8742004
>program your brain with the preferred narrative of internet freaks

thanks anyway

>>8741527
I've been aware of your work since about 2009 (hi friend I emailed). It has been disconcerting to watch you become progressively more far-gone as time goes by. IIRC, there was some shmup board you used to post on before you were banned and you actually sounded like a normal person before taking on an apparent God Complex. I was a little put off by your work circa '09-'10, but was genuinely interested by it. But it has changed over time, as it looks like you've lost your remaining sense of proportion and given way entirely to your own personal world of solipsism and infinite grandeur and other bad Nietzschean habits.

Ian Bogost made a career off of writing about video games as a culture.

>>8741760
>>8741785
>>8742081

this is pasta guys. just so you aren't disappointed and expecting to hear back from him.

>tfw secretly hoping he's not dead and is continuing to write essays about far cry 2 in his own blood from the inside of a swedish asylum under assumed name b/c still hiding from interpol

>>8742111
Oh well. Have to wonder if I'm not the only one who feels this way >>8742081

>>8741966
>It will never receive the mainstream high regard as a respected art form on the level that you give to it.
I'm who you replied to, not OP. I understand that well. I don't expect them ever to.

But they never will for multiple reasons. Some of the biggest being:

1. There is a high threshold barrier of access to them. Put simply, most people suck at games and will never be good at them, even if they started playing as children.

2. If you want to enjoy them on the cultural level, it requires a high energy level output. Movies, theater, music, etc. do not have that same high level requirement. Sports do though, and so do books, in a sense.

3. But unlike sports and books, video games don't have social or intellectual perks associated with them. So it is an activity that requires a high energy level output, is fairly isolating, and does not have additional indirect perks associated with them that we need to survive — naturally, most of humanity will not see them as valuable.

Granted, there's still tens of millions of people who are into them. But there's hundreds of millions into movies, music, sports... there will never be hundreds of millions into video games.

That doesn't really matter to my original post though. My point was just that video game talk is just as interesting as long as you have the right passionate minds engaged in the conversation.

>>8741990
>Video games are products made by corporations to be sold for enjoyment.
And they are, in fact, enjoyable. I consider them the greatest blend of catharsis and adventure storytelling that is available in entertainment. So what's your point here?

>>8742145
Yes, it's not that the games suck, everyone else is just incompetent at them.

A slight variation on "Am I out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong".

>>8742158
>Yes, it's not that the games suck, everyone else is just incompetent at them.
Yeah, because that was clearly what I said, and the only point that I raised.

>>8742161
Thanks for not disagreeing.

>>8742164
I'm not holding people up to competitive tournament standards or anything. I actually don't like the tournament scenes at all. But a huge amount of people simply can't play them, and therefore they can't be a part of the cultural scene. There are a LOT of people who can't even get through a Souls game, and those games are easy as shit, let alone something like a full Civ IV or Age of Empires II match with intermediate to pro level players.

And it's worth pointing out, because even though you might say that every Tom, Dick and Harry that watches movies or listens to music might not have the best opinions on these things, they are at least able to access these mediums enough to HAVE opinions at all. Meanwhile, a lot of people can't form any kind of opinion on the majority of games because they can't get past even learning the controls and interface. They don't even bother. Or they attack something completely superficial about them in response and never even engage with the actual substance of the full experience, which is akin to just criticizing a movie for its poster or a book for its cover.

>>8742158
>being able to overcome a skill barrier is akin to being senile

>>8741418

because the only writing that could possibly emerge from it would be, on the one hand, advertising and valorization, for which game informer exists, or on the other hand, ruthless criticism of the inherent capitalistic fetishism involved in identifying a "culture" by the consumption of a commodity, an inconvenient truth that the so-called "gamers" don't want to hear and that the leftists are, frankly, tired of writing about, having written about it constantly since the 30s. meanwhile, the possibility of aesthetic criticism is totally co-opted by the fact that the game's primary purpose is to facilitate gameplay, a feature which only exists to make the game sell better, in which case see my previous point.

all that polemic said, i do think there are some interesting things to say yet about the RPG genre of games, especially as its statistical interpretation of human/nonhuman capacities bears for the ideological reproduction of human capital. the tv series westworld has taken this up to alarming and interesting effect.

The only people that like Icycalm are effeminate men who got bullied in school or have an inferiority complex.

>>8742204
The guy in the OP pic demonstrates otherwise to what you're claiming.

>>8742214

>>8742213

>>8741482
*tips*

>>8742214
Eh, what's your point?

The only people that think Icycalm has written anything of worth are people who have just started reading Nietzsche or pseudo-philosophers looking for a 'daddy' figure to look up to.

Who knows...you might be Icycalm yourself :^)

>>8742231
I probably deserve that.

>>8742240
Yes, you did.

Icycalm uses Ad Homs all the time. What's it like knowing you're a dork who looks up to a bald Greek playing video games all day scamming dorks like you on the internet?

Lol!

>>8741914
>but I'm sure I deserve it.

You sure as hell do. I mean, game theory? As in formal game theory? Electronic media studies? I can only guess at how pretentious your intentions here are.

>>8742204
>the game's primary purpose is to facilitate gameplay, a feature which only exists to make the game sell better

For the most part, you aren't wrong. However, not every game is out to solely make money. I think there are some indie producers who are legitimately interested in creating a beautiful game with a fresh take on gameplay.

>>8742237
>The only people that think Icycalm has written anything of worth are people who
are passionate about both video games and philosophy/critical theory, and can clearly see how he is/was a breath of fresh air among all the journalist schlock and resentful nerd self-fellatio going on online as far as video game criticism goes.

>>8742256
>For the most part, you aren't wrong
He isn't right either. His state is a non sequitur, that's why.

>A game's primary purpose is to be a game, a feature which only exists to make the game sell better
is what he is essentially saying. Which makes no sense.

>>8742264
>His state
statement*

>>8742243
>looking up to Icycalm

Didn't even know who he was until I opened this thread desu. Internet celebrities are pleb tier.

Can someone actually critique why every feature unique to the medium of video games has no value other than muh skinner box for nerds?

If art is going to move forward then it is going to move forward somewhere into the realm of digital interactivity. Literature is exhausted, Cinema is mostly exhausted, ect.

>>8742322
>Literature is exhausted, Cinema is mostly exhausted, ect.

I can't agree with you, but you're right that interactive media is the most promising way for art to progress, but this is being held back by conceptual bullshit.

>>8742322
Gamers consistently place Legend of Zelda as an artistic highlight. That's what we're up against.

>>8742377
>Gamers consistently place Legend of Zelda as an artistic highlight.

If it isn't the artistic highlight of the medium, then pray tell what alternative you propose this to be. What else currently does a better job of taking advantage of its potential.

>>8742399
What does someone get out of Zelda that they don't get out of a dozen other properties contemporaneous to it? Compare it to Ultima IV, which built gameplay upon a system of ethics as well as the typical dungeon crawler.

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>>8742399
It's structure and progression is rotary. There is no true sense of formic expression via level design, progression, and gameplay.

Something like pic related could be a great keeping these elements and fixing everything else obviously wrong about it (and cutting out the shitty filler levels)

>>8742377
>That's what we're up against.
It's what Icy's up against too. So why do you all downplay him?

>>8742491
Kill yourself, you effeminate nu-male.

>>8742453
>What does someone get out of Zelda that they don't get out of a dozen other properties contemporaneous to it?

A hell of a lot. Nothing else in gaming attempts to be a gesamtkunstwerk in the same way that Zelda, especially with the hero of time games, does. Just looking the way the games make use of space and the contrast between space alone, there is no other game that manages to do the same on anywhere near the same scale. If you don't understand how the total experience of these games is greater than the combination of their individual parts than I don't know how I would really explain this if you haven't experienced it yourself. It's the play of total space/time possibility that makes Zelda what it is, along with all the other elements that are integrated with this.

>Compare it to Ultima IV

I haven't played Ultima IV so I cant compare, but how substantial is this ethical dimension that you'd say it's equivalent to what Zelda pulls off?

>>8742457
>It's structure and progression is rotary. There is no true sense of formic expression via level design, progression, and gameplay.

Please explain yourself and back this up. What has better "formic expression" due to "design, progression, and gameplay" then.

>Something like pic related could be a great keeping these elements and fixing everything else obviously wrong about it

So Yoshiaki Koizumi should go back and make Zelda more like Mario Galaxy? Why and what woudl the benefit of this be?

>>8742497
If you're gonna shitpost and use ad hominem, you might as well try one that makes somewhat sense.

>>8742508
You know as well as I do you're either some teenage queer boy or in your 20s.

What's it like paying to be in Icycalm's forum?

Loser!

>>8742503
The story, characters, and art/setting design are worthy of a pop-up book.

Mario 64 is more of a complete design of space and movement.

>>8742513
>or in your 20s.
Holy shit, you got me.

>What's it like paying to be in Icycalm's forum?
I never have. Not sure what your point is. If you / that guy is "up against" retards who think LoZ is art in video games, then he should be aware that so was Icy.

>>8742524
I've never heard of this guy until this thread.

The way you describe video game "art" could apply the the workings inside a watch. It's just function.

The characters are still awkward, like in that Dire Straits video. Not impressed.

>>8742530
Lurk moar. I've known about him for about 5 years now and even I was late to the game.

>>8742521
>The story, characters

The fact that you immediately bring this up, as if "playing through the story" were such a significant and notable part of what makes OoT what it is, tells me that you don't understand why the game is held in such high regard at all. Now, the specific storytelling techniques that the games pioneer are another thing, and that is somewhat worthy of discussion on a case by case basis. MM in particular does a lot of things that are only made possible by its total structure, even if its writing can be poor.

>Mario 64 is more of a complete design of space and movement.

Mario 64s goals are mostly completely different. You are right to say that the game is more focused on movement, which it totally does exactly at in ways that Zelda doesn't, but Zelda's ability to form a cohesive experience of total immersion based around the interactive possibilities its worlds offer is IMO unsurpassed, while Mario's spaces are largely just functional.

Will most likely 404 soon since this thread is barely /lit/ related. Wish we had a proper Philosophy & Critical Theory board for this shit though.

Just read masters of doom.

>>8742602
This doubles as the Philosophy and Critical Theory board, those generally fall under the category of literature or artistic criticism. People here don't want to talk about that stuff though. Most plebs ITT are too busy memeing about an e-celeb to give a fuck.

>>8742858
they insulted muh vidya! time to use every pretentious insult i can think of in one sentence!!

>>8742861
>one insult in the entire post

I sure hope I can do better than that. And no, I haven't played video games in weeks now. I've been losing interest lately.

The Wii turned 10 years old on November 19th of this year and I've been writing a autobiographical meta-ish short story. I'm interested in how people ignore this part of the culture which perhaps isn't going away and if it does it's still interesting.

>>8742264

not at all. it's a commodity.

>>8742399
>>8742453
>>8742457
>>8742457
>>8742503

this is a common opinion, but it does not make it wrong: majora's mask is a real achievement in the form. not because of the "horror" aspects, but because of the ingenuity with which the cyclical chronology is employed to craft the narrative while allowing the player a real sense of agency. this is a serious challenge for the form, and a challenge that i think a lot of art has to deal with nowadays—the challenge of balancing an endorsement of agency against overwhelming feelings of determinism.

>>8741527
If he was so intelligent, then why did he resort to crime, was it for the thrill?

>>8742111
Oh, Alex, stfu and post yr shit. For sure I won't read this Orgy stuff - the opportunity cost of wasting time on some edgelord's sputum is too high for me. Post the best selection of yr work about 2k-4k words or go away.

>>8741418
Robert Coover's "The Universal Baseball Association, Inc., J. Henry Waugh, Prop."

Best book about the gamer mentality was published in 1968, and although the protagonist doesn't really encapsulate obsessives of certain genres, it's a pretty accurate portrayal of how WOW players feel about their characters.

But really, what interesting things are there to say about people who sit around all day smokin' LMAO and playin' Call O'Dutes?

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for what it's worth, if anyone is still reading this, i exchanged emails with him a few years ago and talked to him once on steam chat. bought the one book he published, placed orders for the rest. i was a member of both of those forums, and i'm still listed as a member of his game group on steam too. i'd prefer not to say which one, this being the land of anonymous and all. but i'm def in there. i drank that koolaid big time

he was a very interesting guy. i honestly still don't know what to think about the whole experience after all this time. that site was my gateway into philosophy, and truth be told i really do think that he was up to something special, albeit in a very, very strange way. i'm saddened that he went off the deep end, because there was a time in my life when that all-black page with the essays by nietzsche and baudrillard and schopenhauer made more sense to me than anything else.

he was fucking impossible to talk to, and basically the problem was that you had all of these people who wanted to ask him questions - i mean smart people, people with fucking ph.d's in music, people from all over the world

>inb4 hurr durr music phd kys faggot

and you just got this sense sometimes that people were going, holy shit, here we go. somebody's going to actually do this, he's going to say what video games were all about.

i am 99.9% positive that he's gone now, but it was a legit rollercoaster. more than anything i wish he had just believed in himself as much as everyone else believed in him. i think that's it, in the end. that really is my feeling. that he set this up as a kind of a con and was amazed when people took him seriously, then found himself in a trap he couldn't get out of: that people trusted him more than he trusted them, and he tried to ubermensch his way out of this fact. in the end he couldn't and i think that's why he started acting the way he did. something like that, maybe.

>tfw drank the koolaid like an idiot

>>8743926
sorry. the problem was not that there were people, but that everyone was interested, but he would shut them all down. and eventually all the smart people were afraid, or driven away, because he would explode on them. even when they were really making sense. he would just erupt and have these meltdowns, and then get angry at you again afterwards.

and now there's that weird fucked-up stuff on the front page that looks like a car accident itself, and of course the fact that nobody talks or writes about what happened at all. anyways.

>>8741837
This is some good shit anon. I knew there was a reason I still come to this board. Nuggets and trails to a grand future lie here.
>>8741920
what doesn't poke at reward centers in the brain?
>>8742204
litRPGs are this
>>8742322
My main concern is that there aren't enough old farts who debate about it. I think that because we have such good records of how games are made, how many people it takes, the romanticism of the past and a stuffy professor masturbating over dylan for years submitting him for the nobel isn't going to happen for video games.
We should celebrate this I think.

As for me, I already wrote something thats a human look using games as a plot device. The only way games get respect is if they involve human emotion and character development. They ignore that shit a lot, even in story driven games, because the people who make them and write for them aren't serious enough about making the characters real people. They just want the characters to 'look' real, which is holding games back from being decent respectable works of art.
In the future people will simply have to decide what deserves praise in a more private fashion instead of trying to make everything all about awards or how big the bank account gets.

Vidya as narrative art excels in a few formats. The art and worldbuilding of souls games, the sandbox nature of Crusader Kings 2 or Dwarf Fortress, and to a much lesser extent some 90s rpgs that bordered on "good" genre fiction.

Aside from that, they are almost 99% built by committee for a profit motive, subjected to test screening and quality assurance, and the editorial process is conceived to offend the least amount of people possible while enticing the greatest common denominator. Games are not subject to rigorous peer review and work outside of the effect on violence for the same reason that the cape-shit movies are not reviewed as serious works of art. Because they are not.

>>8741418
Largely this has to do with two things:

1) Video games are a uniquely decadent medium. The huge amount of money piled into the making of a video game means there are two streams- that of 1) the hugely expensive blockbuster game with zero risk or storytelling ambition, which, if well-written, is so, at best, in the same sense as we can appreciate "functional" nuts'n'bolts storytelling (where things work perfectly on a functional level, but are utterly void of any storytelling ambition, beyond "telling a good story"-- example of a game would include Bioshock Infinite, Game of Thrones is an example of a tv programme), with an absence of auteur culture (all the people /v/irgins consider to be "auteurs" are unimpressive), and that of 2) The "art" scene, where games are made by self-indulgent single developers, who, having spent all their time learnig how to code etc., have blown any chance of developing an aesthetic sensibility (look at how codified and dull these "art" games are stylistically). The problem in both of these cases is also that, whenever a game tries to tell a story, folk heap praise onto it and treat it as miraculous, blinding themselves to its limitations and faults. Just ask any /v/ampire for an example of good video game story-telling. It will always be 1) genre-fiction and 2) coupled with overblown praise, the kind given to children for being able to do basic shit like walk or gurgle in a funny way. This would make sense if video games were an infant medium. But they aren't. What /v/anguards are when they praise game storytelling is like a mother who still breastfeeds her 15 year old. Thus games are like that child, who is so coddled and cloistered that it never develops beyond infancy.

2) The lack of an individual code. This is debatable but, to my mind, games are completely reliant on codes found in other mediums. This leads to utter part interchangeability, where games feature (usually well-worn) Hollywood tropes, yet are never ever criticized for this. Games that blatantly cop their styles from films or novels are still upheld as shining examples of the medium. This is also a problem in Hollywood, and I blame Quentin Tarantino (but also Martin Scorsese etc, earlier). Beyond this, video games are like movies in their earlier stage, when movies relied on the codes of theatre to function. However, Film-making broke free of these codes and created its own in the first ten or fifteen years of its existence. Video games are a thirty year old medium, arguably older, yet have been unable to do so, mostly for the reason delineated in section 1), amongst other things.

It's painfully appropriate that the stereotypical /v/inaigrette is a spotty manchild, developmentally stunted, living with his over-bearing parents, to whom, though he lacks ambition and does nothing but eat chicken tendies and post on r/tumblrinaction, he can do no wrong. There is no more apt metaphor for the nature of video games as a medium than this.

>>8744155
Good post, I would argue that there are some pseudo historical games like Paradox strategy games and historical Total War games that create a third stream, where the game encourages the creation of a narrative within the mind of the individual consuming it. Also in regards to Stream 2, there is still a profit motive, as the number of truly successful artistic games that dont have a 30+ person staff is minimal, ala prison architect and dwarf fortress.

>>8743926
>>8743931
People like you think you have a modicum of intelligence and that by following meme figures like Icycalm you'll finally be able to tap into your genius which has lain dormant.

The truth is you're a plebeian who will always be mediocre because instead of rising above men and intellectuals and becoming an individual yourself, you chose to follow.

Your lot have existed for centuries, always sending philosophers letters, always following them around asking questions attempting to become their 'disciples', but you'll always be a pleb.

>>8744168
I really don't play a lot of games, but yeah, your point about the third stream is really interesting. Those are the games that create a problem for my argument. The codes of a strategy game really can't be related easily to either literature or cinema, and instead are a purer form of the codes of gaming (essentially a form of older "games", become more complex to the point of sustaining a more-than-abstract narrative, like chess in which you can become emotionally invested to a much larger degree). The lack of directed narrative is both a feature and a problem I think. Maybe it makes the idea of an auteur impossible in the context of video games, and I don't know whether that's a good thing or a limitation.

>>8744155
>with zero risk
This part is nonsense. How is a game with several hundred million put into it "zero risk" to you? They have to make several hundred million on top of that in order for it to be worthwhile.

>storytelling ambition
Not really related to the expensiveness. Video games themselves don't incite high storytelling ambition aside from RPGs, because it's usually superfluous to the experience. In terms of video games, there have been plenty of good stories (good in a video game sense — that doesn't mean they are low quality compared to another medium, but that they are well written for what a game needs it for, which means well written across the board).

>all the people /v/irgins consider to be "auteurs" are unimpressive
>the stereotypical /v/inaigrette is a spotty manchild, developmentally stunted, living with his over-bearing parents, to whom, though he lacks ambition and does nothing but eat chicken tendies and post on r/tumblrinaction, he can do no wrong. There is no more apt metaphor for the nature of video games as a medium than this.
>using /v/ as a reference AT ALL to make your point
In video games, auteurs are development studios themselves. There are plenty notable ones in video games. You might want to scan over HG101 or culture.vg to get some references.

/v/ does not make up the high end cultural aspect of video game culture. They're the low end. Don't try to base anything off of that board, because it really is filled with developmentally stunted manchildren.

>>8744175
While you're not wrong, you are arguably the worst of the two. Your type has always been around as well.

>And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

>>8744215
>with zero risk
This part maybe was unclear. I meant "takes" zero risks, rather than is not a risky endeavour. Obviously with the amount of money in games, there is a huge external risk, and thus, games avoid taking internal (e.g technical or storytelling) risks.

>storytelling ambition
You've just done exactly what I complained about in my post. You, like an overbearing parent, just let video games off the hook for mediocre "nuts and bolts" storytelling. Unless you think that this functional aspect is the only aspect of narrative art that matters, in which case, kindly get off /lit/ please

>/v/irgins
I've never been on /v/. I just use the term to refer to anyone I've met or talked to that considers themselves a "gamer" or has tried to convince me that games are an art form on par w/ cinema etc.

There are plenty of development studios, and not one of them has ever produced a game that conflicts with what I have to say about video games.

I'm not a /lit/ elitist. I think as a medium it does have a lot of potential. But gamers are so quick to defend it as a medium that they never criticize or demand better. I don't play games except to kill time with friends on mindless shooters because they're all the same. The problem isn't games; it never has been. The problem is gamers and their misguided, stunting affection, for a medium that should have advanced much further than it has.

>>8742251

All of a sudden I realize that you don't really know what you're talking about.

>>8744254
>This part maybe was unclear. I meant "takes" zero risks, rather than is not a risky endeavour. Obviously with the amount of money in games, there is a huge external risk, and thus, games avoid taking internal (e.g technical or storytelling) risks.
I know what you meant. My point was that I think that this line of thinking is overall an error.

We see the high budgets and we first think: well, since they HAVE to appeal to millions of people in order to make a profit now, no doubt they won't risk trying anything too controversial, or too challenging, or even too different from what is already successful... but video games didn't always have a reference for this. They barely do still. What blockbuster hits in video games came out and took the consumer base by storm and had an exact reference before it to use? Halo didn't, no Valve game ever really did, no Nintendo game really, Call of Duty didn't even have one. They were successful because they honed in on what those audiences wanted really well. And we can't forget that it was people who came together and decided, "we want to make hundreds of millions, so we have to do what it takes to do that." There's been companies that have tried and utterly failed and filed for bankruptcy. They didn't HAVE to try and make it big like that. So since the very beginning of any venture into blockbuster territory, there is already internal risk-taking, because it's still a choice. Someone's choice.

>You, like an overbearing parent, just let video games off the hook for mediocre "nuts and bolts" storytelling.
It's not about letting them "off the hook." You are expecting the wrong thing from them. Video games aren't books, they aren't comics, they aren't movies. They're GAMES. Other than the RPG, puzzle adventure or 4X genres, all that is really needed for any action game, or even the rest of strategy game genres, is a "functional" premise. We don't play DOOM, Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, etc. for a revolutionary story with a deeply provocative ending and a full cast of highly diverse characters to follow, we play them for their high caliber action combat while traversing over the top crazy looking worlds. If they delivered on that respect, they were great games.

Now, I would agree that the RPG genre is a little lacking here. We're lacking in good RPGs in general. Most of them are barely RPGs, focusing instead on the number-crunching stat-building strategy bullshit. FPSs, TPSs, beat'em ups, shoot'em ups, fighters, RTSs, TBSs, etc. don't need anything more than what they already are offering, however, and they would NOT be any better if they had more complex stories. Maybe for you, since you don't seem to actually care about what their real purpose is. No, what makes a game better is more complex mechanics and physics, interesting game challenges, interesting world design, etc.

>>8744331
Do you consider video games art?

Because if they can't deliver on any level greater than the functional, and you as a gamer, expect nothing more than this from them, then they aren't art.

And I still don't think you understand my first point. A business risk is different from an artistic risk, and the presence of business risks usually overpowers artistic risk, which is necessary for a medium to develop.

>>8741982
>Games destroy people's lives and make them dumber.
Has been proven otherwise.

>>8744364
I don't think you appreciate how competitive the business is, they have to take artistic risk all the time. Blizzard mimicked the hollywood model and went for spectacle and melodrama over complex story for their CGI scenes. I saw one of those overwatch promo's the other day by chance, it was the character being annoying is a supposed 'cute' way tacked on to an otherwise serious scene. I could just imagine them saying 'yeah but this is what gamers like these days, put it in'.
Smaller companies can't do that. Compile Heart in japan cornered the gamer market, they made a very specific humor for a very specific niche. If they messed anything up, their company dies.

>>8744364
>Do you consider video games art?
I consider some of them to be.

>Because if they can't deliver on any level greater than the functional, and you as a gamer, expect nothing more than this from them, then they aren't art.
Well, unfortunately for you, they do deliver more than just on the "functional." Just not in the way of literary storytelling. Jet Set Radio is a good example and what's coming to my mind right now. "Story" wise, it doesn't really have any, it has a very basic Saturday morning cartoon kind of premise. Nothing else about that game is "functional" — it is such a unique, fun, and enjoyably thrilling experience, I could never imagine just calling it "functional". Smilebit was also an example of a developer that, though they were very short lived, were taking "artistic risks" with their games (and it's no surprise that they folded in only 4 years).

>>8741418
I know its like all of these millions of books I have read of people watching television and their experiences and tribulations watching it, but not a single one on someone playing Halo.

>>8744236
No, I'm actually a Philosopher King who has already formulated the end of philosophy and science itself.

JUST - this is you.

>>8743752
actually he did say it was part thrill and part needing money fast and easy

I'm not sure I believe that but that's what he said

>>8741527

>http://orgyofthewill.net/

>ctrl+f PUA: 69 hits
>ctrl+f subhuman: 204 hits

>95. Oh for the days when gentlemen walked around with swords and guns! The often unbearable tediousness of everyday existence could at least be shattered at any moment by a challenge for a duel.

Alex is the greatest lolcow of all time.

People who judge videogames based on fucking Super Mario or Bioshock or even "indie darlings" like Journey have no idea what the fuuuck they're talking about.

Imagine: Someone comes up to you and tells you that literature is an infantile form of entertainment. When you ask them what they've read, they reply, "Oh, you know, J.K. Rowling and John Green."
Yeah, that's how obnoxious you sound. Super Mario is like the fucking Harry Potter of video games.

NEWSFLASH: There are interesting games being made every day. They're just not the mainstream dogshit with which you've proceeded to dismiss the entire medium. There will always be an underground, an avant-garde, even if the nascency of the form means it's still small and exploratory.

Before you pretend to know anything about "video games as an art form," do yourself a big favor and try digging around a bit first.

>>8744401
But I was specifically talking about function on the level of story telling. If they can't do more than that, then it isn't a narrative art. And if it isn't a narrative art, then what kind of art is it?

>>8744546
What video games would you recommend then?

>>8744537

Of course that's what he said. And I'm sure getting wanted for it was all part of the thrill too. Just like all of his spelling errors are intentional, and actually suggestive of deeper truth that subhumans can't grasp.

>>8744546
A proper art form needs more than just an avant-garde. Few of the literarygreat works of the past were considered underground, and where would cinema be without Alfred Hitchcock.

If you have to allude to some strange, mysterious "underground", then sorry man, your medium's trash

>>8744551
>if it isn't narrative art
It's a combination of interactive art, visual art, and music. All of those are art separately. The five nights at freddy's guy does some great games that mix everything together to make this childish yet horror feeling.
Lots of puzzle games like Myst and Riven do this pretty well too, great games have a touch of /lit/ behind them.

>>8744551
>And if it isn't a narrative art, then what kind of art is it?
If you have to assign a category to it, maybe co-narrative art (adventure that is made in joint with the participant), but I am still not satisfied with the inclusion of "narrative" in there. Dynamic art, interactive art, synergistic art, etc. But it's all just "art" to me, and the categorization is just useful for historians, so someone else might have a better answer.

>>8742004

I'd rather have a lobotomy pham

>>8741418

Can you manchildren fuck off with your pathetic carrot and stick false accomplishment toys?

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>>8741990
This is not a result of games themselves, but because of the economic model that they work within

you can learn to paint like michelangelo, write like homer, and compose like mozart, but even the most gifted genius can never learn to develop a video game like some forgettable ubisoft sub-studio, because even if you learned all of the skills it would take you decades to put together something even approaching a modern AAA title yourself

and even if you got past that hurdle and somehow gathered a large, talented group of developers and got them to follow your artistic vision, video games are only fifty years old with none of the artistic development and refinement that painting, music and literature have as artforms

but maybe in the future AI systems or standardized development models can help lone men to make something free from the yoke of market capitalism

>>8742858
>This doubles as the Philosophy and Critical Theory board
Not really. It's a much broader subject that is currently split between /lit/ and /his/ rather loosely. Hence why so many thread duplicates can be found between the two boards.

>>8744573
His parents appear to be wealthy though(I think they own the publisher that published his books), it's entirely possible that icycalm is the sort of high test sociopath that would be interested in the adrenaline kick of committing minor crime

>>8744175
you're probably not expecting this, but i can't even disagree. what you have said to me is what i used to tell myself all the time.

but there's a difference between being secure enough to admit it and needing to make yourself feel better at someone else's expense, or hating the world enough to think that shitting on someone like this is somehow going to make the sun come out for you. so i'm not even disagreeing with you. i am exactly that person you just described. i can't even get angry about it. the world is full of people like me.

so good luck and take care anon. i hope you continue to rise above it all in whatever way seems best to you.

>>8744561
Here's some easy-to-find ones, off the top of my head:

Anatomy
Kentucky Route Zero
Beginner's Guide
80 Days
Problem Attic

KRZ and 80 Days have actually gotten a decent amount of attention. I also want to be clear that I'm not saying these are the best videogames ever. But I think they're innovative and succeed in exploring the potential of the medium in thoughtful ways. Even if they're not "deep" or "artistic" in the more traditional, literary senses of the words, they demonstrate a value unique to the medium of videogames.

>>8744581
>A proper art form needs
Lol, okay. Please continue to arbitrarily judge the "properness" of art forms based on their ability to reach a mainstream audience rather than on the strength and value of the actual works themselves.

>>8744681
>arbitrarily judge the "properness" of art forms based on their ability to reach a mainstream audience
Because clearly when I acknowledge that an art form can't survive with only an avant-garde I'm just reducing all art to how well they can appeal to popcorn idiots.

Look man. All I'm saying is that the dialectic of art involves a mediation between the mainstream and the avant-garde. And if one wing is utterly deficient, the planes gonna crash.

Do normalfags really think video games are that stupid?

>>8744546
>There are interesting games being made every day.

most games are literally made for 12 year olds.
no other medium has such a low standard, not even generic tv/movies or pop radio.

sure, there are some rare games that aren't boring as fuck if you're an adult, but it's like going to the kids' book section hoping to get entertained, it's a waste of time.

>>8744690
>when I acknowledge that an art form can't survive with only an avant-garde

Except you didn't mention the "survivability" in your post at all, and instead made a judgment about the quality of the medium by calling it "trash."
But insofar as that /was/ the point you were originally trying to get at, then I agree, an art form has little chance of surviving if it's alienating and doesn't appeal to a wide audience.

But you don't seem particularly interested in the future of videogames anyway, seeing as your critique of it doesn't do anything to forward the quality of games being made in either the mainstream or the underground, but suggests there's something inherently valueless about the medium in general.

>>8744715
>I lack basic reading comprehension skills: the post

>most games are literally made for 12 year olds

I didn't say otherwise

>no other medium has such a low standard, not even generic tv/movies or pop radio

uh, factually untrue. You might fancy yourself a more intellectual consumer, but that doesn't negate the fact that most of the mainstream tv/movies/music being produced, regardless of whether they even register on your radar, don't require more than the brain power of the average preteen

but i do agree with you that most videogames are a waste of time, just like most books and movies and tv shows are a waste of time. so i don't bother with them.

>>8741418
how many people have written about TV?

>>8744730
I don't think that at all. Sorry if I came across that way. I just think in its current form, it's not providing the world with anything that would justify calling it an art form. If/When games break free of the rut they're in, I'll be very interested in their future. But, as of now, i'm not convinced they have a future.

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>>8744681
Those indie games are the fucking worst.
>we don't have money for proper graphics and shit, what do we do?
>let's come up with some artsy shit with a high school tier narrative and sell it to hipster redditors, because we're indie and totally not corporate sellouts


I tried pic related recently and I was bored out of my mind, gave up after an hour. And this is far from the worst example I could think of.

Also most of these indie "games" can be watched on Youtube without really losing anything.

>>8744790
not games exactly, but I think 3D modeling and "level" design is worthwhile in itself, and will become so even further with the improvement of VR technology

like architecture, stripped of it's practical properties, but free from physical limitations

>>8744175

As if it was possible to think up 2500 years of philosophy by yourself, without reading and studying what was said before you showed up.

Like trying to build a car while being ignorant of combustion engines, and refusing to learn about them from mechanical engineers.

Meanwhile, the real intellectuals are all proud of their tutors.

>>8744175
Yeah, I forgot to say: you're stupid.

>>8744681
>But I think they're innovative and succeed in exploring the potential of the medium in thoughtful ways.
Really? I think they're all mediocre and forgettable and are barely games.

I don't get why it's so difficult to find people in these kinds of threads who have some modicum of interest in the topic, who speak in favor of games, and who DON'T then start namedropping the most forgettable little high school project level mini-game indies as an example of what's good in games.

The repertoire of games being namedropped in these arguments should look like what icy lists at the opening of his Art Games book:

>Civilization, Grand Theft Auto III, Sangokushi Senki, Total Annihilation, Deus Ex, UFO: Enemy Unknown, Merchant Prince, Devil May Cry, Eternal Darkness, Spacewar, Planescape: Torment, Rogue, Battle Garegga, Wing Commander, Street Fighter II, Fallout, Quest for Glory, Bubble Bobble, Privateer, Counter-Strike, Doom, Metal Slug, Jet Set Radio, Halo, Dune, Master of Magic, OutRun 2, Dungeon Master, Quake, The Last Express, Virtua Fighter, Pirates, Tetris, Tekki, Syndicate, Alpha Centauri, Gekka no Kenshi, Nobunaga no Yabou, Metal Gear Solid, Age of Empires, The Secret of Monkey Island, Fire Emblem, Pikmin, Herzog Zwei, Max Payne, Elite, The Super Shinobi, Prince of Persia, Railroad Tycoon, Sim City, Samurai Spirits, Gun Valkyrie, Rainbow Islands, Daimakaimura, R-Type, Super Mario Kart, Ultima V, Ninja Gaiden, Zero Gunner 2, Super Metroid, and countless others

That is a fantastic base list.

>>8744835

And I mean, there are people out there who actually want and like to understand how stuff works, and couldn't give two shits about your vain desire to be recognized as a "genius". In your own happy-pretend world you might be able to imagine yourself very smart, but if you can't even understand these things I just told you, how smart are you really?

>>8744835
>>8744864
i'm no genius, anon. we both know that. and i don't imagine myself to be very smart, either. honestly, i used to. i have no pretensions like this anymore. now what i want to be is someone much like all the others. telling myself i already had the answers was only getting in the way, and it was hard as hell to unlearn all that shit. that's why i said i can't disagree with you.

anyways...

the thing is that i was actually sort of dreading that this would be the response, that i would take the high road and that you would come back and shit on that too for no reason. man's inhumanity to man and all that. it used to bother me, but more because i thought i was supposed to know what to do when it happened. maybe shit on you? i just didn't see the point. so i came back to see, just in case. and so it was.

and you know, it really wasn't so bad. now i'm kind of glad, to be honest, because this wasn't really so painful after all. it's one of the perks of being ordinary.

so i can't insult you, if that's what you're wondering. and even this isn't intended to be passive-aggressive. it really isn't. sounds crazy but it's true.

so enjoy the last word. this has been enlightening. i'm going to watch myself type this: good luck, anon, and take care. i hope things continue to get better for you the rest of the way.

and this kind of exchange, i shit you not, is why i visit these boards.

>>8744199
You should read Master of Go, its a literary narrative of a single game of Go

>>8744836
Yeah, because it's not like there isn't already plenty of evidence for the value of games like Civilization, Metroid, Mario Kart, Halo, and Doom

>>8744311
>All of a sudden I realize that you don't really know what you're talking about.

What exactly are you talking about then? If you are not talking about mathematical game theory then what kind of theory are you referring to that make video games entirely superfluous?

What 'electronic media' is there apart from games that likewise is so much more all encompassing that there is no point in writing about vidya specifically due to them being so comparatively minor, but which isn't covered by the literature on existing art forms?

>>8744542
Oh shit this stuff is great.

>119. It is precisely the best drivers who cause the worst accidents. Only the terms should here be reversed, for the paradox is only a result of false terminology. For the most spectacular accidents are by no means the "worst", but precisely the best.

>128. The attitude of modern fathers, who hate the idea of someone fucking their daughters, is loathsome and even obviously perverted. Nothing would give me more pleasure if I had fathered a daughter, especially a beautiful, smart girl, than the knowledge that some man worthy of her was treating her the way a woman should be treated — which would of course include fucking her brains out every now and then. In fact I myself would set about finding her a husband worthy of her, and, having exacted his promise to treat her right, would admonish her to obey her husband and be his loyal and loving companion. To be sure, she would have to be a virgin up to that point — I can well understand fathers who are upset at the idea of half the village idiots banging away at their daughter, not to mention the disgust I would feel towards the daughter that would consent to and desire such a life. I would not bring up the village slut — I'd gut her myself before allowing her to become one.


I admire his ability to recognize the genius of Zeno's paradoxes though, given he actually understands the point of them unlike so many mathematically inclined people who insist that integral calculus somehow shows their premise to be mistaken.

>>8747001

I'll reply when you learn English.

>>8744826
There's nothing with reading people from the past, retard.

The problem starts when you begin following their every footsteps thinking what they say is gold or waiting for them to reveal something in you instead of building on what they've done, or refuting it entirely.

Great men advance past their tutors, they learn from them and soon form their own ideas. Losers follow great men to every last letter without ever doing something themselves.

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>>8741418
>Gamers are disgusting and don't read
>nobody else gives a shit

i.e. There is no market for it.

>>8745037

bro, I was replying to the smarmy idiot who called you a pleb. Those 3 posts were all directed at him. >>8744826
>>8744835
>>8744864

>>8747144

Who are these semen demons?

>>8747111

And the sky is blue. And 1+1=2. You think you're saying something profound, but you're just a poser posting trivial things for no reason.

>>8747111

And actually, there's no "problem" at all with people deciding to "follow a great man's every footstep thinking what he says is gold or waiting for them to reveal something in themselves", for christsake. It is by this very process that a great man ends up recognized as a great man. So by condemning the very reason the great man becomes famous (for if no one follows the great man and ensures his works and deeds remain immortal, nobody would ever even dream he existed a decade after his physical death) you are, once again, proving you're a loser poser who hasn't understood a thing.

>>8747111
The real problem here is that YOU think yourself very smart. Your insults on that dude above were a mere projection of what you feel yourself to be. You want to be a great man so bad but you are just a poser follower -- and you know it.

How else would you hallucinate that people following great men is a "problem"? Nonsensical shit like this can only start making sense after we delve on the psychology behind it. And yeah, if you're a vain poser who wants to be a Great Man, it is a big problem if you suddenly realize you're just an inconsequential follower. At which point you start instinctively attacking the mere idea of "following", as if there was anything wrong with it.

>>8747254
>hur dur you're projecting

Retard!

>>8747236
>>8747247
>>8747254
>literally replied three times

JUST - this is you, JUSTed to the extreme.

>>8747229
bitches from my facebook

>>8747295

How about you learn a language before using it and bungling it completely? Go stick your JUST up your ass.

>>8741429
What a ridiculous point of view. Escapism is one of the primary drives for people who read a lot.

Just because your escapism of choice doesn't involve a game controller doesn't make you somehow superior.

>>8741418
Icycalm was wrong about almost everything, he was a "muh atmosphere" fag and bad at fighting games.

>>8748741
>he was a "muh atmosphere" fag
Wrong, he made fun of those fags too.

>>8744155
You probably wont answer me, couse i write this post after more then 30 hours of yours but i will still write it for others to read.

So, as you said, games are immature, and games considered 'genious' are not that genious if you try to compare their philisophical deepness to philosophical deepness of some books (i will not talk about cinema becouse now cinema is mostly as cash-grabbing dumb shit as games are). I personally think that Metal Gear series is deep enough, but smart-asses will argue, that Kojima used known tropes and philosophical paradigms.

Yeah, games are not that deep, becouse they mostly exist to entartain. And if they dont, developer wont earn enough money and will never create new game.

But it doesnt make games 'bad' medium. Becouse games can be the best medium to translate message, to show the idea of the creator to a player. That power comes form the fact, that player literally can become part of the story. In books if they are good enough reader can be sucked in it, fall in love for characters, and so on, and so on. But he is still just a reader! Its not His story. Its a characters' story.

Games are different. They can take player in, make him part of the world. And like this translate the message. That is how much power games can have.

There is game called Tyranny, recently realised. I was playing it and noticed, how this game plays with my mind, being sort of a Milgramm experiment. That was really a powerfull feeling, no story can ever translate.