Find a flaw.

Communism is still susceptible to man's inherent greed.

muh dialectical materialism

>>8721833
it's susceptible to the man's inherent inequality, smart people are always going to find ways to prosper and stupid people will always find ways to be resentful about it

>>8721829
Price problem.

>>8721829
It's selled at the bookstore.

>>8721839
thats not a argument

>>8721845
this. If anything, it's an argument against the ideals of communism.

>>8721845
marx never accounted for the fact that capitalists risk their capital, so they should get a return on the risk...marx's whole schtick is based on a fantasy world were startups never fail and old firms never get disrupted, it's just wrong

>>8721849
really the biggest flaw in marx's shit is that he compares apple to oranges...agriculture is a type of production, capitalism is a type of economic system...he should have compared agriculture and mechanized industry, but then he wouldn't have had an argument

>>8721829
Stalin.

>>8721829
It has no flaws, i.e., it's not compartmentalized, so when the ship you build under its plan inevitably strikes an iceberg, the entire ship floods and everyone dies. A flawed system, with multiple escape valves or failure points, will outperform a perfect system, because it fails in a predictable manner, and not catastrophically like the perfect one.

>>8721829
Some people will impose their wills on others no matter the economic system. Any economic system except for some sort of extreme distributism can be used as a method of social control.

>>8721845
that's not an argument

>>8721862
the capitalists were the first to deploy heavy machines in production, but the communist revolution in russia showed us what feudal factories look like...essentially the whole communist movement was really a reactionary movement trying to bring agricultural values to industrial production, and not surprisingly it was shit, likewise the anarchist movement wasn't a progressive movement, but a regressive one longing for the days before nations when city states and tiny kingdoms were all over europe

>>8721874
anything above hunter gatherer level production is going to involve "social control" and "oppression", hell, even hunter gathers might have a beef over who gets to hunt and gather were and have a battle with the loser being summarily slaughtered with no regard for capitalist "human rights"

>>8721881
>"oppression"
What are you quoting? I never used that word. Otherwise, you are just repeating what I said.

>>8721869
Cool rhetoric, I like you.

>>8721829
I told you a little while ago I'm a capitalist these words are nearly meaningless right what is socialism so there's socialism in Europe and capitalism and socialism in reality are NOT THAT FAR APART in fact I would argue that they're indistinguishable why ok cuz they both agree that government should do some things and private industry should do others— COMMUNISM SAYS... no there should be no private industry the government should do everything... I guess extreme libertarianism says the government should do almost NOTHING right EVERYTHING ELSE IS IN ZEE MITTLE so for example in capitalism in America as we know it Nike makes shoes uh the government doesn't guess what in socialist Europe Nike makes shoes the government doesn't

G8 b8 m8, i r8 8/8

>>8721829

It's romanticized, a pretty Utopian theory that cannot be apply to the real world.

>>8721876
das not argumint

File: 1439133550532.jpg (11KB, 312x297px) Image search: [Google]

11KB, 312x297px

>>8722074
>he believes in a real world

File: Pepe qt.gif (2MB, 286x400px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 286x400px

>>8721829

The Labour Theory of Bullshit.

Or is that Capital?

>>8722094

Holy shit that's a cute pepe

>>8721829
The cover is too asiatic

>>8722157
It's in English.

>>8722094
If the Labor theory is wrong, then capital is arbitrarily distributed. If value created doesn't correlate with work done, then why should anyone make more money than anyone else?

>>8722074
>Scientific Socialism
>the literal opposite of Utopian Socialism

You didn't read it did you?

>>8722053
Slow down. Europe isn't socialist. You have a really superficial understanding of capitalism. Please come back when you know what you're talking about.

>>8721833
There is no such thing as inherent greed. Human nature is constantly changing and differs immensely from person to person. A murderer might say that murder is a natural human action. But most society never murders.

>>8722299
yeah? I'm talking about the design
too third world, more fitted for a maoist text

>>8721829
It's pure ideology.

>>8721853
They risk their surplus capital. They invest of the excess that they have in hopes of getting more. That's your big argument for capitalism?

How much do you think your average worker can afford to invest? The same as someone who started off with a lot more? Billionaires can afford to lose a few million dollars here and there. Most people can't afford to lose even 1 thousand dollars in an investment.

>>8722314
The hammer and sickle was a symbol developed by the Soviets. The USSR was at least 1/2 in Asia, so yeah, you're partly right.

>>8721887
He's likely referencing want Marx said rather than your comment

>>8722302
Because of the demand of certain goods. It doesn't matter how much labor you put into making shit, if no one is willing to pay for it, then you aren't gonna make any money. There are millions on little nuances to this, but labor alone isn't what dictates the value of a certain good

>>8722312
Fwiw I agree with you on the point of human nature not being inherently greedy.

Minority or majority aside, there is still a subset of greedy people who would exploit the system to consolidate power. Eventually this would snowball and break pure communism.

File: Beavis and Bighead.jpg (62KB, 386x520px) Image search: [Google]

62KB, 386x520px

>>8721829
It's spooked.

>>8721877
>progress only moves in one direction always
PURE LAD

>let's give all our property to the bankers and let them distribute it to us as they think's best

hmmmmmmmm

>>8722454
>every human is greedy
>no wait you're right but some humans are greedy
>they will ruin communism
this is a sam-harris tier hypothetical.

I feel like it's just something you either agree with or don't. The reasoning in it is mostly sound, but it starts from certain assumptions that I just can't bring myself to agree with. If you agree with those assumptions, you'll probably agree with most of the manifesto. If you don't, it comes across as an interesting mental exercise, but not directly applicable to the real world.
Even if you are a capitalist (as I am) you should definitely give it a read, if only to understand where the other side is coming from. Hopefully this will help you see communism as less of an evil threat, intent on taking away everyone's fun, and more of a mis-guided ideology, based on assumptions that aren't necessarily true (but are at least somewhat understandable).

It's funny that the communist manifesto was written for the urbanised factory working proletariat but most of the most famous attempts at communism happened in places that were still transitioning to that state from serfdom/ agrarian economies.
Also the state of capitalism at the time, was still in that transition even in western Europe when Marx was around, most poor factory workers were descended from poor peasants who worked the land.
Many of the assumptions about the direction the world would take because of capitalism made by Marx turned out to be completely false.
Ironically people claiming to follow his ideas were closer.

>>8722523
what assumptions did you disagree with?

File: dd.png (7KB, 545x465px) Image search: [Google]

7KB, 545x465px

Not enough freedom.

Let's say someone sets up their own custom sex toy e-business without exploiting anyone and paying all their dues for use of natural resources, paying workers a decent wage with bennies and so forth.

What will the communists do? Step in and say "put down the bad dragon, you are not permitted to make transactions like this, it is capitalism which is bad"?

If not then they will continue to accumulate capital, as will many others, and commmunism will collapse.

The crime here, it seems, is that the people involved are working outside the system and the commies don't like that. It is the same as the government trying to crack down on the black market even though no one did anything wrong.

>>8721829
Worst Marx desu.

behavioral uncertainty
outliers

>>8721829
It exists.

>>8722675

Maybe they would say, "how many people want a dragon dildo", ok make that amount, give the inventor their fair grand share, produce the amount, maybe some taxes involved, maybe make a few extra incase some more people who didnt speak up will want one, keep the mould around for the future.

Communism couldnt possibly work, because dragon dildos

>>8721829

Losers can tend toward desiring collective unity to ease their struggle toward lively power

Those who are not in such a situation, obviously would not want to risk any change to their non loser situation

>>8721829
Flaw #1 based off of extremely wishful thinking
Flaw #2 Related to flaw 1. Idea works if everyone has the emotion and work ethic of a robot blah blah, the usual, etc...

All governments that have followed it were failures (muh it wasnt implemented correctly), thats part of the flaw. If its that hard to implement its flawed

>>8721829
I'm not into fantasy books

>>8722675
The problem of the expoitation of workers is more than a simple wage problem. When starting a buisseness, the boss is capturing the desires of his empolyes to satisfy his own desire. If everyone in that company wanted to produce dragon dildo (although knowing what people really want is kinf of tricky), then I don't see why commies would have anny problems with it .
https://www.versobooks.com/books/1602-willing-slaves-of-capital

>>8721829
While presenting plenty of valid criticisms of existing systems, the proposed solution is impractical and contrary to basic human psychological drives.

File: only the dead can know peace from this ideology - zizek.jpg (83KB, 500x579px) Image search: [Google]

83KB, 500x579px

>>8723394
>basic human psychological drives

>>8723394

What if everything that exists now would exist under communism (with private property, the concept of abolishment of private property seems to much to far unnecessary, and the biggest glaring point of detraction), but also more and better too?

>>8723497
how the fuck are you going to have communism with private property you fucking mong? read a god damn book asshole

>>8723512
Everyone has their private property, that state (the people) owns the rest of the land. So that 1 or 1,000 people cannot come to own 89% of land.

>>8723512
Everything would be the same as it is now, besides less power in few hands, and a more direct pure representation of supply and demand of goods and services, and the assurance of enough human necessities being created

>>8723664
would make moving from one house to another really big deal. not all private property is equal house in NY is worth more than one in ohio and how do you pick a size limit. are you are going to have is artificially limited house sizes in bum fuck nowhere. also what of farming land?

>>8723664
dude, complaining about rich people owning all the land in a post-agrarian civ is pointless...the united states economy has a lot of structural problems but a land reform distributing land to all the non-existent peasants isnt something that's needed

>>8723686
>pure representation of supply and demand of goods and services
so no brand mark ups?
>assurance of enough human necessities being created
how? will you force the production companies to work? What is in this list of necessities? What of farmers who get by on mild price bump that comes from scarcity of potatos in that year, will you subsidize them? Given how poorly thought out all this is I think you would be better of subscribing to an even stupider ideology like anarchy or libertarianism

>>8721829
doesnt work

>>8723714
i feel like admitting that communism failed is part of becoming an adult. communists are people who are still mad that life isn't fair.

>>8723724
>relying on experimental data

You aren't some kind of positivist, are you?

>>8721829
He underestimated Capitalism's ability to adjust itself and political/economic interest to manipulate workers.

Your fry cooks at McDonalds still do not relate to their Burger King counterparts and this is even worse when relating burger franchise to chicken, or Mexican, or pizza, etc.

>he thinks most people are going to work if given the chance not to
>"dude let's force them to work lmao"
>he thinks people will want to live in an authoritarian society

Communism is a meme. Let it die already.

>>8723744
the people who work at mcdonalds aren't the kind of people who are going to rise up in revolution, since if they really cared they would just go to school and get a degree and get a better job.

>>8723726

>>8723428

>>8723757
You're confusing two different demographics that work entry level labor jobs.

1) Part timers who have other commitments and are in transition between work. IE students working over the summer, while in highschool, or working their way through college

2) Part timers who work multiple jobs but their current employment at an entry level labor position is out of necessity.

The former are no interest to rise up since their position is temporary. The later however have every reason to rise up since their work has become who they are.

>>8723726
I feel like admitting that communism failed is a part of admitting you don't care about accuracy or truth and just want to fall back on simple statements that don't challenge your world view.

Ask yourself, was their a state? If the answer is yes then it wasn't communism. It's that fucking simple.

>>8723788
and how pray tell do you plan to stamp out free trade without a state to regulate everything to death?

>>8723780
>Part timers who work multiple jobs but their current employment at an entry level labor position is out of necessity.
>The former are no interest to rise up since their position is temporary. The later however have every reason to rise up since their work has become who they are.

but again, if those people had the wherewithal to to rise up and overthrow the federal government in bloody revolution, don't you think they would just go to community college and get a two year degree as an x-ray tech or something instead of risking their life to appropriate a deep frier and some cash registers with 1980s level tech?

>>8723800
By have the world recognize that humans are not their labor and are equal and so deserve equal treatment within all aspects of their life. To each according to their need, from each according to their ability is not a hard concept Anon.

But the inherent difficulty within Communism is that it only functions on a world scale.

>>8723726
communism works for a limited time when you can turn unfairness into part of it. exploit the landowners,etc to feed the majority but once its clear that being in X profession is a thankless job then everyone starts avoiding it or being corrupt as fuck

>>8723800
"""free""" trade as we know it is dependent on a state

>>8723823
> but once its clear that being in X profession is a thankless job

But this is not the case as their position does not limit what they have access to.

File: 1472171483928.jpg (30KB, 500x358px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 500x358px

>>8721829

More like find a merit

>>8723788
>Ask yourself, was their a state? If the answer is yes then it wasn't communism. It's that fucking simple.
Than it is as retarded as anarchy. There will be no neo humans with endless spirit and love for each other. perpetual transitional state is simply proof of the unachievable. only a fool wishes to go from a state to a simplistic communal existence, to wish it is to deny human complexity

>>8723821
>But the inherent difficulty within Communism is that it only functions on a world scale.

how is it going to function on a world scale? what happens in some dickheads in sudan decide to start a hot dog stand? are you going to have the UN send in a drone to blow them up? what if a farmerin vietnam decides not to eat his chickens but sell their eggs? are you going to beat him up and kill all his livestock to teach him a lesson?

>>8723811
Revolution has never been achieved by the elite alone. It's the peasant, the farmer, the poor who fill the front lines and tear down buildings, structures, and governments.

What you think it was the 20+ guys at the Constitutional convention that defeated the British?

The people have the ability to rise up. The fact that labor unions ushered in such profound changes to the Capitalistic system in the 1920s proves their ability and power. The current system however has seen fit to drive wedges between everyone making such unification harder

>>8723828
yet they can get the same amount from an easier job. maybe they will go to a job they enjoy more but realistically society always needs more people working crappy jobs than comfy ones

>>8723830
lol exactly

>oh boohoo some smart guy figured out how to make a lot of money and now poor ppl who watch tv all day and never read a book are jealous, yes, let's throw away all of civilization over this!

>>8723841
>maybe they will go to a job they enjoy more but realistically society always needs more people working crappy jobs than comfy ones

really? is that why all the "poorly educated" in middle america can't find any work? because there's so much demand for labor?

>>8723830
Because human culture is still of the mindset it was in back in the stone-age amirite?

Why is it that the critics of Marx and Communism fail to grasp that Marx's theory wasn't just a snap of the fingers boom communism but detailed out the changes needed within society in order to achieve its end goal?

Read Marx before you criticize Marx champ. Makes you look less retarded.

File: white_criminal_rnmf.png (264KB, 480x484px) Image search: [Google]

264KB, 480x484px

>>8721829
The truth is ugly my friend.

>>8721829

No defined Metaphysics, Epistemology, or Esthetics to speak of.

Barely has a half ass semblance of Ethics and Politics.

Shit philosophy 0.5/10

>>8723821
>But the inherent difficulty within Communism is that it only functions on a world scale.
That is the biggest lie ever told. there is literally no reason why you could not make a small scale proof of concept in Temperate Zone with land that can grow almost everything and has all the metals/oils

>>8723835
>The fact that labor unions ushered in such profound changes to the Capitalistic system in the 1920s proves their ability and power. The current system however has seen fit to drive wedges between everyone making such unification harder

wrong. labor unions rose in the 1930s because FDR passed the Wagner act which gave private sector unions recognition by the state, you want to argue communism but don't know the first thing about labor history? kill yourself

>>8723848
marxism is just a misreading of the french revolution, you are stupid and marxism is stupid, good day sir

>>8723833
globalism is a joke, it destroys diversity and makes needless bureaucracy. obviously the world government is going to have sector leaders who will equal country leaders and region leaders who will equal state leaders,etc ,etc. basically the same shit with extra layer of shit but as the other anon said the "dream" is that there will be no state. how can society function without a state of any kind, by evolving into new beings who can do it

>>8723835
>The people have the ability to rise up.
I think you mean people have the ability to be useful idiots. yes it is often the rich and the idle who have time to sachem and money to buy weapons be those actual weapons of political tools .
>The current system however has seen fit to drive wedges between everyone making such unification harder
international mobility is what makes such unification harder

>>8723847
What is your point? also that is another interesting aspect, what does communism do when there is no job but too many idle people, does it hire 4 people per parking space as they did in china at one time or do they tell them to show up anyway like in NK? just shit out a random contraction project? if labor is not needed why did Subbotnik exist?

>>8723848
>Because human culture is still of the mindset it was in back in the stone-age amirite?
human culture has only changed thanks to advancement of technology, nothing in humans themselves has changed.
>changes needed within society
well that is not how any of it works, thus his suggestions are shit. its like outlining how people should paint in ultra violet spectrum without any tools

>>8723821

>By have the world recognize that humans are not their labor and are equal and so deserve equal treatment within all aspects of their life

Humans aren't all equal. Some are smarter than others, some are more ambitious, some are more hardworking. Some are very ruthless. Without the strong hand of a socialist state on the tiller a hierarchy would inevitably arise. You're asking for an impossible utopia, and every attempt to create a utopia ends in disaster.

File: ocyJGCJ.png (297KB, 576x566px) Image search: [Google]

297KB, 576x566px

DAS KAPITAL IS OUT OF DATE

>>8723903
>human culture has only changed thanks to advancement of technology

Gee wilikers. And what was it that Marx thought would introduce the radical transformation of human society? Something about an Industrial revolution which reduced the individual down to the singularity of their work which in turn would unify them?

Dumb ass you just made my fucking point.

>>8723910
>radical transformation of human society
unless you start putting micro chips into peoples brains to force them to act X way the Marx type changes are not going to happen.
>something about an Industrial revolution which reduced the individual down to the singularity of their work which in turn would unify them?
except those people got filtered out and dependents of ex switchboard operators work other jobs. it was Industrial revolution that eventually birth not the unified worker but simplified jobs and need for less jobs.

>>8723835

>What you think it was the 20+ guys at the Constitutional convention that defeated the British?

The majority of American soldiers were mercenaries hired by those ~20 guys. Basically they got drifters, bums, out of work laborers, anyone they could find really and paid them money to shoot redcoats. The British did the exact same thing and even brought in extra help from Germany.

The unsung heroes of the Revolutionary war were Robert Morris and Haym Solomon: America's financiers.

Conflict theory promotes violence

Pretty much every way of managing government and economies can work out fine. Humans generally find ways to make themselves happy no matter what sort of environment they live in.

>>8723943
can we have a monarchy where majority of people are sex slaves?

Whats the deal with Communism and taxes?

Whats the deal with Communism and money in general, is there theory of money/credit/savings in Communism?

What about muh singularity? Robots that can make robots that can farm, 3d print houses, make clothes, ship food from farm to stores, stock store shelves, robot registers, lay roads, build and drive cars, drones bringing food from supermarket to homes, robot in home cooking and cleaning food, secksy time, artificial womb

>>8721829
what if a big group of people decide that they would rather slack than work for the betterment of the whole?

the dead weight impacts the society

>>8723978
>Whats the deal with Communism and money in general, is there theory of money/credit/savings in Communism?
no, everyone will work not even for barter but because they want to or because they know others need these necessities
>What about muh singularity
yes, singularity is death of both Communism and capitalism. its also almost as big of a pipe dream as Nanomachines

>>8723992
>what if a big group of people decide that they would rather slack than work for the betterment of the whole?
that just would not, there evolved minds would not allow it

File: 342384834.png (25KB, 597x431px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 597x431px

capitalism is just superior buddy

File: 1464630117881.jpg (772KB, 5000x5000px) Image search: [Google]

772KB, 5000x5000px

>>8724004
>there

>>8724004
even if a communist society was made of 140+ IQ people, after successive generations, the IQ would return to the mean, implying past levels of communism int he future

communism is a utopia, but not realistic, and thus would not work

>>8721829
Is this a good starting point on karl marx? I'm trying to know about it, not get into it
Also, any recs would be great

File: 20130509072547.jpg (129KB, 749x499px) Image search: [Google]

129KB, 749x499px

>>8723993
>>8724004

I'm assuming we would also hold women in common to prevent competition for mates to become the new capitalism. Otherwise there would be fierce battles over the one hot girl in the commune.

>>8721829
it destroyed too much

File: burning_skeletons.jpg (254KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

254KB, 1280x720px

>>8724028
>attacking spelling

>>8724042
The Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital

>>8724048
we would transcend gender and there would be no sex, only artificial insemination using sperm selected from the sperm bank. each persons would get to propagate

File: slide_29.jpg (152KB, 960x720px) Image search: [Google]

152KB, 960x720px

>>8721829
Believed too much in the State

>>8724042

https://www.marxists.org/subject/students/index.htm

>>8722494
This.

File: oh boy.png (307KB, 292x551px) Image search: [Google]

307KB, 292x551px

>>8723512
>>8723664

It's another episode of "retards conflating private property with personal property"

>>8722658
not him, but probably that profit is stolen labor, etc etc
The manifesto is sound when you accept Marx's definition of certain economic structures, but if you read the theory without understanding those definitions he sounds like a crazy man.

>>8721866
OP asked for flaws, anon.

>>8721829
The presumption that there is a flaw is the only flaw I find.

>>8723843
>being smart is the only way to become wealthy

>>8723937
P U R E

>>8721839
Communism isn't about 'making everyone equal' - equality is a consequence of the establishment of communism, of a certain social order.

>stupid people will always find ways to be resentful about it

If that were true then literally no social system could exist at all, since all have been unequal.

>>8721829
It's appeal to the lesser levels of soceity

>>8724987
well if you know a way to get wealthy while being stupid why didn't you do it?

>>8725049
>why don't you got born to wealth
>why don't you have dumb luck

>>8725015
>If that were true then literally no social system could exist at all, since all have been unequal.
except unlike communism others don't have Utopian endgames so they can say "good enough" without then going "it was not true X, true X has never been tried"

>>8725075
has fascism ever truly been tried? i mean communists always say there's nothing about gulags in marxists theory, so then what about the fact that there's nothing about concentration camps in fascist theory, so why don't we give fascism another try? inb4 trump

>>8725074
>>why don't you got born to wealth
>>why don't you have dumb luck

the person born to wealth had a parent who figured out how to get wealthy, don't be mad that your dad was a lazy bum with no ambition

have any of u brohs check out quantopian? it basically let's you be a freelance quant, with total agnosticism towards your academic background, if you can make a trading algorithm that hits their target metrics they will run it against their $250 million pool of capital and let you keep 10$ of profit...if capitalism is so unfair and banking is so easy, go for it my dudes, what are you waiting for?

>>8725086
>so why don't we give fascism another try?

why dont you like freedom?

>>8725089
>wealth is always only one generation old
>being a pathology assistent makes you a "lazy bum"
>only dads can be wealthy

>>8725103
>10$
10% of profit lel

>Error: You must wait 28 seconds before posting a reply.
4chan Pass users have lower cooldowns.

when did this bullshit start?

>>8725107
>why dont you like freedom?

cuz some people make better choices than me about how to allocate their resources and then i get envious

>>8725110
>only dads can be wealthy
well since i can count the number of women who built billion dollar businesses on one hand it's not a bad assumption

>>8725123
>building billion dollar businesses is the only way to become wealthy

>>8725154
well that's the only one that's accessible to everyone since a lilly white fag like you isn't going to get far in the african warlord game or chinese communist party oligarch racket

File: nip moot.png (143KB, 1284x492px) Image search: [Google]

143KB, 1284x492px

>>8725111
We're sinking.

>>8725157
>accessible to everyone
Also you didn't even understand the point retard.

>>8725184
so your excuse for being a low income pleb is that somewhere on the planet there is a rich guy who isn't brilliant? well then i guess that makes it ok to just sit around jackin it to anime and wallowing in poverty

>>8725192
>argument by putting words in oponnent's mouth
Kill yourself.

>>8721829
He doesn't distinguish between intellectual and physical property

>>8725089
What about the people living during times when the wealthy decided to have great depressions and wars to shake things up a bit? (and by shake things up a bit, I mean kill a decent portion of the population and get richer through war time production, and building what was destroyed)

ITT people who don't understand communism.

You're characterizing communism as though it's just capitalism where people are forced to share. I'm not necessarily a communist I identify as an Anarchist without adjectives that tends to advocate more mutualist policies but we have very similar objectives and I consider them my comrades within the radical left.

There's a variety of far left socialist schools of thought with their own unique tendencies but the one and only thing they have in common is worker control over the means of production.

Here's some refutations of basic arguments against socialism

> muh free market
You can have market socialism and even free market socialism. This includes left wing market anarchy, mutualism, distributism, titoism etc.

>socialism sounds good on paper but it always fails in practice

The times when actual socialism has been implemented it functions quite well and elevates the standard of living for all citizens equally. When it does fail it is due to counter revolutionaries or foreign invaders not due to some alleged internal contradiction in workers controlling the means of production. Former Yugoslavia is probably the worst example of socialism functioning so I'll give you that.

>muh human nature

Weakest argument by far. /lit/ is pretty smart so I'll leave this alone you already know it's bullshit

> muh iPhones

Developed in the public sector along with almost all other technological break throughs via public investment for private profits. The very idea that capitalism is responsible for all advancements in the modern era is absurd beyond measure. Very few if any life changing products and services can be attributed exclusively or even primarily to the capitalist mode of production and pursuit of profit. The innovations of past and present were created by people who simply wanted to create for the sake of creating due to a fascination and love of their work the only thing capitalists should take credit for is exploiting their genius to make a quick buck. Even if you could somehow prove that monetary incentives are solely responsible for our standard of living today that doesn't mean socialism can't provide us with the same or better amenities.

> centrally planned economies are destined to fail! Soviet Russia! Cuba! Checkmate

Neither of these are socialist inb4 not real socialism maymay. I'm a free market socialist but I'll play devil's advocate here. Cuba's in a disastrous state because of the trade embargo that prevents any type of real human development for the island. As for Soviet Russia a "centrally planned economy" turned a bunch of illiterate peasant farmers who only knew how to grow potatoes in a 3rd world country with 0 infrastructure to the world's second biggest super power TWICE in less than 40 years, even the most cynical critic should give that a B-.

>>8725307
socialism only works in states with one race, which is why people like merkel are in such a hurry to flood europe with non-whites

>>8721869
So what you're saying is a system you described as having "no flaws" has a single major flaw

>>8725110
with inheritance tax in some locations yes, building a dynasty is hard

>>8725184
just whore yourself till you get the capital needed to show of your genius. jackie chan managed

>>8725307
kys

>>8725307
go to bed emps

>>8721869
That is the kind of idiotic thinking that leads the to fear of nuclear energy because "much one highly improbable catastrophically failure"
>fags say it can only work when globally implemented
>having a system that predictable fails run your 1 world gov.
you can't make this shit up.

>>8725307
every product of a socialist country I have spoken to has come off as a petulant smug retard, who is A) happily getting taken advantaged of or B)taking pride in "gaming the system", all the while clapping for forced voting,50% income tax and various other idiocy and delusion that they are getting anything "free"
>/lit/ is pretty smart
kek. also nice deflections, stroke the ego, Im sure it will get you somewhere .
>This includes left wing market anarchy, mutualism, distributism, titoism etc.
I want to bludgeon you
>trade embargo
any ideology that can not protract itself and can't stand on its own is not a worthy one.
> As for Soviet Russia a "centrally planned economy" turned a bunch of illiterate peasant farmers who only knew how to grow potatoes in a 3rd world country with 0 infrastructure to the world's second biggest super power TWICE in less than 40 years, even the most cynical critic should give that a B-.
>starts out by saying how people ignore addition factors only to go on to ignore additional factors
What did he mean by this?

File: thebuckster.jpg (5KB, 253x200px) Image search: [Google]

5KB, 253x200px

>making an obvious bait post so that all the shitty commie posters and /pol/fags have a containment thread

Bravo OP, you're doing God's work

>>8725470
every product of a captatlist country I have spoken to has come off as a petulant smug retard, who is A) happily getting taken advantaged of or B)taking pride in "gaming the system", all the while clapping for removal of the minimum wage, 50% mark up on prices and various other idiocy and delusion that they are getting anything "on sale"

>>8722319
They are risking their physical capital to the forces of nature and civil unrest, in addition to maintenance and the ebbing of inflation

The means of production must be cultivated, and is in a constant state of decay

Every bit of surplus invested in research and exploration is a gamble, which could have been used on the workers via repairing and maintaining production

This would remain true regardless of ownership of said means of production

>>8722319
>How much do you think your average worker can afford to invest?

if the average worker is such a genius of marxist economics he should sign up at quantopian and write some trading algorithms that outperform the market and leverage their capital to make a bunch of cash, oh wait, the average won't do that because the average worker is dumb as shit

>>8722319
>They risk their surplus capital. They invest of the excess that they have in hopes of getting more. That's your big argument for capitalism?

would you prefer they spend it all on oil paintings of themselves and gold plated chandeliers like the french aristocracy? risk their capital to expand the economy instead of just blowing it on luxury is exactly why capital washed away the feudal order

File: 1449011744965.png (14KB, 193x215px) Image search: [Google]

14KB, 193x215px

>>8724094

>we would transcend gender and there would be no sex, only artificial insemination using sperm selected from the sperm bank. each persons would get to propagate

That sounds like hell, anon. When I'm giving it to a nice girl I don't think "Oh gee, I'm so glad to be propagating my genes!" In fact that's the exact opposite of what I want to happen. That's the problem with you communists: you have no souls. You won't do anything fun, because enjoying life is "bourgeois ideology." When I read about things like the White Terror or Pinochet or what have you I remind myself of how communists aren't really people so it's all good.

>>8725686
Are you dumb as shit? If not why aren't you doing that.

>>8725736
>muh fun
>>>/v/

>>8725481
>thinking you're above everyone
>posting a buckley picture
very fitting.

>>8722445

The demand of certain goods is determined by the "fetishism of commodities", you didn't read the Labor theory, did you?

>>8721829
[COLLAPSES]

>>8722445
Demand determines market prices which are governed by market competition. The term value isn't utilized as a synonym of market price and anyone familiar with classical economics knows that. Adam Smith first identified value as labour rather than use value but he didn't distinguish between the substance and measure of value -- labour -- and labour-power, as a commodity, and so ended in an irreconcilable contradiction of determining the value of commodities by wages, and at the same time the value of wages, by the value of the commodities required to reproduce that labour.
Capitalists do not compute the rate of profit on capital in the analytically deep and correct way that Marx did, in relation to his presently-socially-necessary-labour-time-value / surplus-value theory of the capitals-system and of its profitability-dynamics, as s’/(c + v), wherein the s’ numerator denotes the output, the net [’] surplus-value [profit] produced -- net of taxes, rents, interest, insurances, losses, and many other expenses -- by means of their productive use of the (c + v) denominator input. That denominator, in turn, sums the inputs whose productive uses caused that net output. The component c denotes the cost of the "constant capital" “invested”, e.g., of the non-surplus-value-producing means of production consumed -- the raw materials used-up in the product, and the plant and equipment, partially consumed by "wear and tear" in their productive use -- in producing the output whose successful sale yields the s’. The v component denotes "variable capital", the wages-cost of the "labour-power" input, of the ‘power-to-labour’ also "consumed" in producing what ultimately became that s’ profit: the cost, paid by the capitalist, of the human muscle, nerve, brain, and bodily and mental human energy input used-up in the process of producing what ultimately yields that same s’ as output.
In the Marxian analysis, the "wages bill" is part of the capital invested i.e. is part of the capital input to the production of the s’ "profit" / "return" output. Capitalist profit-rate metrics tend to treat wage-labour cost as a mere "expense", not as an investment input/cause of profit.
The capitalists metrics for profitability are typically on the theme of something more like s’/C, whose denominator, here denoted by "Capital", C, denotes, not c, but the source and opposite of c, of constant capital consumed i.e. C = remaining , not-yet-"circulating", i.e., still fixed, Capital; ‘constant capital not-yet-consumed/depreciated.

>>8723732
>implying i did

>>8721833
>inherent greed

Is it inherent
-or-
99% manufactured by the ruling powers? To keep people producing, consuming, and at each others throats?

>>8723750
Who will force them to work?

File: SA.jpg (252KB, 962x542px) Image search: [Google]

252KB, 962x542px

>>8727266

>Capitalist profit-rate metrics tend to treat wage-labour cost as a mere "expense", not as an investment input/cause of profit.

Laboring workers produce revenue and thus profit. The wages expense is directly tied to the revenue they produce. We can't consider workers an "investment" because we don't own them. There is not that much stopping them from getting a job somewhere else, moving away, or going on welfare/becoming lumpenproles.

Your analysis might have worked better in a manufacturing economy, but in a service economy your workers' labor is what you're selling. The working isn't building a car that has all this labor stored in it, he's answering a phone or cooking food. You know honestly I think communism could work but it would mean reverting back to a much simpler way of life, and the lower classes and working classes of 2016 would definitely not be okay with that. Think about it, when the average 7-11 has more inventory than a Venetian merchant of the 1500s we can afford to wine and dine the proles to the point where they actually enjoy a relatively high standard of living.

The only thing that gives me pause is to think of the masses of hungry third world peasants coming for muh shekels. But few of them know anything about Marx, and the moment they get citizenship in a "good" country they become little capitalists themselves. The ones who would actually cause trouble are fairly easy to stop because:

Whatever happens we have got
the Maxim gun, and they have not.

written by old white men 200 years ago

>>8727505
Those service sector jobs are a necessary overhead expenses for the realization of profit. A manufacturing/service economy is a false dichotomy, there's only one global economy. Labour-power is a commodity like any other in a capitalist economy subject to all the same laws except it can fight back. Your fetishistic thinking makes you believe that financial instruments can magically keep growing all by themselves but they can't.

communism was a reaction to industrialization and liberalism, but in attempting to address the problems of alienation, dislocation and social disintegration brought about by modernity, they merely created a system that exacerbated those problems by uprooting everything.

>>8721829
What people doesn't understand about communism is that it's not the "end game" or a "perfect, flawless system". It's just another step after capitalism which isn't even in it's prime yet. Just think capitalism as the island A, and communism being the mythical island B, but we also assume that there must be also way better and bigger islands than both. And let's imagine that the people on island A doesn't have the resources to make a ship to island B, because people still isn't ready for it and the wealthy, privileged people with rulers of island A forbade us from doing so. This leaves us with 2 chances. First would be the overthrow of privileged and make our own ship, and second would be to patiently wait privileged to get bored and decide to move into island B voluntarily which doesn't seem to be possible at the moment. We'll maybe get into island B at someday, but we still don't know what we could find there except rumors and myths. This is how political systems work.

File: ecf23871245c63792bcb7ca123583949515dd471331a2b60d3d3dbbedb6b1eca.png (159KB, 500x645px) Image search: [Google]

159KB, 500x645px

>>8722094
Pick one and only one.

What is marxist theory on rewarding inventors?

>>8727560

>there's only one global economy. Labour-power is a commodity like any other in a capitalist economy subject to all the same laws except it can fight back.

It can't move like any other commodity, it is irrational and often stupid, and every time it tries to fight back it loses. Marxism is an increasingly rare belief system even in the places where, according to you, it would do the most good. I think it's time you recognized some new historical forces and stopped clinging to the past.

You sound very dogmatic and I think it's blinded you to some stark historical realities. The Soviet Union collapsed a long time ago. The PRC is capitalist. Vietnam is capitalist. North Korea and Cuba are starving backwaters. When your ideas are applied to the real world, they always fail. Maybe in some imaginary hypothetical scenario when TRUE socialism is perfectly applied you could end up with something workable, but praxis never works like that. Oh, and protip: if your regime is not strong enough to withstand "capitalist wreckers" then it's a shitty regime.

>>8727686

I just wanted to add that I don't think capitalism is a very good system either, but if you think that socialism is going to replace it then you're living in a dream world. Capitalism and Marxism are not the only possible systems.

>>8721837
That's the name of the philosophy we
subscribe to, yes.

>>8721829
It didn't work.

>>8721853
>society should function as a casino, it's only fair

What a terrific argument. You literally actually convinced me and I'm a hc libertarian now.

>>8721877
>nations

Implying the nation-state is the only way of imagining communities. True communism is internationally oriented, a true communist has radical solidarity with the oppressed everywhere.

>>8727702
by Marx's own lights, this is the most fatal flaw
>Philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways; the point is to change it.

Comrades in this thread, I have a sincere question for you: how do you struggle, how do you fight?

I have studied marxism for a year and a half now, and am thoroughly convinced that it still offers the most coherent, nuanced and radically empathic critique of the current order of things. Yet I am at a loss to what truly marxist action would actually look like in my situation. I am a well-educated, well-off student in an extremely wealthy and privileged northern european country. Please help me find my practical, pragmatic path.

>>8725470
>any ideology that can not protract itself and can't stand on its own is not a worthy one.

>the most powerful nation in the world buttfucks you for literally a hundred years but you still somehow manage to remain a sovereign state out of pure spite and resolve
>pimpled autist on 4chan tells you you can't stand on your own feet because of your ideology

Niiiiice, matey.

Communism is better for everyone besides those who do not invent or work, but only receive money because they have money.

Workers work, inventors invent, everyone gets what they need, but how do individuals get what they want?

>>8727710
Fuck off Benedict Cumberbatch.

>>8727300
>Who will force them to work?
their stomachs

>>8727287
>>inherent greed

What in communism prevents the fruits of greed from flourishing?

>>8725496
>for removal of the minimum wage
in what shit whole did they remove the minimum wage? I think you maybe making this up since I don't recall minimum wage being removed after being established (in any country) unless it was removed due to fall of gov
>getting anything "on sale"
people falling for "on sale" stuff or 2.99 trick does not really mean anything for the system. its not a government related thing.

>>8725736
What is fun changes with society. you know how deeply religious will tell you that its fun for them to pray and hold their little events? its kind of like that but better, instead of finding joy in getting drunk you will find joy in hard work and fellowship

>>8727778
would not they be given food by their fellow? must they be lacking legs, because I know some people that would go that far for free things and one also my think spiritual sickness that killed/caused their desire to not work is a disability

>>8727287

t. che guevara fanboy

>>8727506
a german at that. anschluss the dots

>>8727599
also they realized you can't fight Hitler with outdated shit or at least you can't win with it

>>8727600
>It's just another step
well fuck it then. Why set out on a journey with hardship and no end goal? Im sick of new half assed(libertarianism,anarchy,etc) systems telling me to destroy what I have and then wait for "great revelation" that is sure to come once im done destroying everything.
>its a step
yeah that is what marxist theory said about socialism and how its just a step towards capitalism, until we are ready to let go of our early needs or some other equal bull.

>your metaphor is shit
take like minded people and fuck of to islands C because turned out the sea is full of those islands .overthrow privileged does nothing, since those who do the overthrowing just end up being the privileged, all you do is cause pain to peripherally related people.
>This is how political systems work.
nope. first you got to show what do good parts of your ideology are and that they can actually be successfully implemented

>>8727705
are you saying business should never fail?

>>8728119
>would not they be given food by their fellow?
No you are thinking of welfare and foodstamps and non for profit charities

>must they be lacking legs, because I know some people that would go that far for free things

No you are thinking of disability welfare and the fact that a significant percentage of the population purposefully disables themselves to get on it

>>8727732
oh yeah trade embargo is such buttfuckery, its totally understandable that the country is so undeveloped. maybe you should try being self sustaining and if you won't/can't maybe you should have considered the location before picking a system. Then you would not come off as if you starded a shipyard in ohio.
>pure spite
clearly the system that has lead them to happiness. people bitching about trade embargoes/sanctions seems to forget that your neighbor does not own you shit, their hostility should be taken into account even when there is peace and that historically ill disposed countries have done a lot wars than own trade embargoes

>>8728143
so did I misinterpret the bit about "to each according to his need"

>>8728143
I suppose this shows the current system is a blend of capitalism, socialism, and "communism", but in terms of who is benefiting how, in relation to the ways of how things can possibly and actually be, numbers rarely lie

>>8727770
I don't get it. moving money is work, as much work as being a lawyer or a doctor. + these days people invent work by being consultants for none existing problems and back in the day they used to make communists committees for that

>>8728166
But in the great proven land of capitalism, there is welfare, foodstamps, and charity (food given by their fellow) (but there are also homeless people, and people with too few food)

The main thing of communism I think, is that there will not necessarily be 10,000,000 clothing companies and 10,000,000 clotheless, 10,000,000 food companies and 10,000,000 starving. Also actual and potential labor is always more valuable and real than paper, those able to build apartment buildings deserve to collect rent.

>>8728172
>I don't get it. moving money is work

A monkey smacking itself in the head with a stick is work. Friends playing a game of monopoly is work, the one friend desiring to sit out the gam and play banker is work. A river is work, an avalanche.

>these days people invent work by being consultants for none existing problems

What is/are a/some example/s of this? You think such is good/acceptable?

No concept of management.
Nothing happens without management.

>>8721829

The lived experience of working life, of "productive activity" in the conventional senses, is not actually as central and intrinsic to the human condition as Marx decided that it would need to be in his project. In particular, other categories such as physiological, sexual and emotional needs precede and motivate human industry in general. But Marx makes the mistake of setting up labor, class

It isn't even true that class is /the/ demographic separator to end all demographic separators. Sex and race are clearly more fundamental, more intrinsic, and for similar reasons. The insistence upon both of the above false points does much to lead the Marxian project into error.

The Marxian project is also self-deceptive in that it presents what are really at bottom a series of normative and ethical value judgments about the way that the world ought to be, and disguising them as historical inevitabilities, "new science", and so on. (We /should/ overthrow the bourgeoisie, we /should/ endeavor to live in a classless society etc become statements along the lines of "It will inevitably happen that the bourgeoisie is overthrown, however long it should take, for xyz reasons.")

On the contrary, it would be perfectly legitimate, and better more intellectually honest, to make a rhetorical case for the way that the world ought to be, and then lay out a very similar scheme for how and why we should strive for the Marxian goals, doing away altogether with the false superstructure of historical inevitablility. Better, acknowledging that your stated goal may not necessarily come to pass unless you make it so preserves an urgency about the project, and prevents you from getting theoretically complacent.

>>8728196

*labor, class etc as /the/ categories of lived human experience, when they aren't.

>>8728190

In fairness, the Manifesto was conceived and executed as a rhetorically compelling broadside, and is expressly not meant to go into detail. For detail, there is the whole rest of Marx to be read.

Your point is well taken but it's not quite right to dock the Manifesto points for not doing granular details. A president doesn't go through tables and spreadsheets while delivering a State of the Union, by way of comparison.

>>8728172
>I don't get it. moving money is work
Can money not be moved for the state?

>>8728196
>The lived experience of working life, of "productive activity" in the conventional senses, is not actually as central and intrinsic
>But Marx makes the mistake of setting up labor

Isn't this because Marx was surrounded by unregulated factories with 10 year olds working 17 hours a day with black lung?

And what of sweat shops, illegal immigrant labor, "slave" labor today?

>>8728196
>Sex and race are clearly more fundamental, more intrinsic, and for similar reasons.

I do agree that poor white women are better off than rich black women

>>8727646
Wealth =/= value

What astounds me about Communism & Socialism and all the variations is how badly the majority argue for it.

Really makes me wonder how many have actually read/understood Marx, since they find it so difficult to agree on anything and I've met very few that can really get my noggin going with Marxist arguments.

Must be shit being a marxist and seeing all these really fucking odd offshoots from SJW's to 3rd Worldism, Anarchism & State Communism/Socialism.

>>8728196

well-said. Post-modernist thought and a cursory glance at the procession of history from WW2 onward has pretty well destroyed any idea of "rational" cause-effect relationships regarding political restructuring. The materialist theory of history does not account for irrational actors, and so the inevitability Marx speaks of is really nonexistent.

>>8728334
>and so the inevitability Marx speaks of is really nonexistent.

Or, you just have not clearly looked into the future long and well enough

>>8727730
häng dig

>>8728172
>I don't get it. moving money is work
America has 20 trillion national debt, for that amount America could have bought every stock on the NYSE

the lowest common non(/...) d(en)ominators are what they are

>>8722312
>>8727287
this is the problem

communism rests solely on human nature and humanity as a whole transforming into something it's not, never has been, and never will be

>>8729023
>this is the problem
>communism rests solely on human nature and humanity as a whole transforming into something it's not, never has been, and never will be

This is the problem

this is the textbook soundbyte denial which is not an argument. There is nothing about communism that would destroy or ruin human greed. People would still pursue their desired work, and seek to make desired good and service to receive money for, if workers owned the means of production, and there was demand for a product being unfulfilled, a greedy worker could punch in their time card, and crank out the product for 38 straight hours if they were willing and able, to receive the appropriate amount of Empire (Kingdom) Credits

>>8727646

>The price of everything and the value of nothing

Get back to me when you understand Wilde's quote.

>>8725470
nice attempt at saying nothing at all you fucking retard

>>8729023
>implying humanity has remained exactly the same for it's entire period of existence
try gently removing your bosses dick from your asshole

>>8728582
:'(

>>8721829
well, grocery stores for starters.

http://blog.chron.com/thetexican/2014/04/when-boris-yeltsin-went-grocery-shopping-in-clear-lake/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENG7PEvByOE

>>8728898
That is like saying "world has X amount of debt. lol who do they own the money to?" it just shows you don't know how it works. also America owes some of its debts to itself

>>8728177
so instead of answering my question you went with "b-but capitalism has it too". value of actual labor decreases with advance of technology and output of 1 man can match the need of 1000s, handmade carpets have artificial value simply because they are handmade and rich like the feeling of that.
>10,000,000 clothing companies and 10,000,000 clotheless, 10,000,000 food companies and 10,000,000 starving.
What are you even saying? are you one of those guys who is butthurt that companies don't just give away their unsold product?

>>8728188
>What is/are a/some example/s of this? You think such is good/acceptable?
like I said consultants, in some cases personal assistants. Those people that sell pet clothing, hair styles or psychology

>>8728218
it can. I support the state being the biggest dog in the yard while still allowing others to do their thing

>>8729130
workers owning means of production just means more bureaucracy during its upkeep. backstabbing when cuts are needed and various other conflicts of interest between the position of a manager who is also a worker
>People would still pursue their desired work
except like everywhere in the world the desired work maybe full or there sill maybe undesired work that needs doing for common good and someone has to do it.
>receive money
yeah, the small amount which is unlikely to cover their living or will drive them to wait in specialized shops.
>a greedy worker could punch in their time card, and crank out the product for 38 straight hours if they were willing and able, to receive the appropriate amount of Empire (Kingdom) Credits
Does not really sound like communism. also there are quotas of production, there is a time when surplus is not needed and everytime you crank up to work for 38 hours you are taking credits from other workers. If you are unlucky it will be seen that 38 can be done and than doing 38 hours will become the norm

>>8729179
no counter argument eh
>>8729182
it has you dumbness. we did not "evolve" some new morality or whatever dumb shit you are implying. We are as we have always been and some discoverer reduced the need for hard choices but that does not mean our minds have changed