Why isn't Diomedes remembered among the Achaean heroes

>>8715121
Hes not? I remember him well.

>>8715166

Just seems he is not part of common knowledge when people talk about Troy.

unlike achilles, he overcomes his problems through the aid of gods (athena and hera) rather than through sheer will. the ancient greeks were humanists and i think the fact that they valued achilles as the greatest hero of their greatest war is one way to show this

>>8715214

Except Achilles was part god, and invulnerable everywhere but his heel.

>>8715121
I think it's because he didn't have anything to make him unique and memorable: while Ajax was brave and big and Heraclean, Diomedes was like a lesser Achilles without the emotional turmoil
>>8715243
Homer celebrates talent and inborn greatness above almost anything else: much ot Achilles's godliness was part of who he was
With that said, Achilles is served and saved by gods quite a few times

>>8715258

Diomedes attacked and wounded gods themselves, and lived on. Was it because he was too much a consummate hero that people find him boring, much like Aeneas in the Aeneid?

>>8715214

At one point during the war, he actually came face-to-face with another epic hero – the mighty Aeneas. Diomedes took one look at this warlike member of the Trojan royal family, brained him in the hip with a huge-ass rock, and then ran in to slice the dude's head off and destroy the Roman Empire before it was sperm. The goddess Aphrodite, seeing Aeneas in trouble, swooped down from Olympus, snatched the badly-wounded Trojan hero up into her arms, and ordered Diomedes to stop.

Diomedes told her to get fucked. With Athena guiding his sword arm, Diomedes charged forward, striking Aphrodite in the arm and causing her to cry out in pain. She dropped Aeneas and fled back to Olympus while he yelled taunts at her. If beating up fertility goddesses isn't hardcore enough for you, when Apollo rushed in to carry Aeneas away, Diomedes also attacked him three times, only to be repelled by blinding flashes of light each time. This guy just didn't give a shit – he would take on any one, any place, any time, regardless of their potential status as being immortal.

Never was this more intensely awesome than when Diomedes, the mortal son of some moderately-important guy, went straight-up against Ares, the Greek God of War, in mortal combat. That's right, this guy was so utterly fearless that he fought the deity responsible for warlike bloodshed, and the being whose sole job is to decide who wins battles. Oh yeah, and as he was charging in to do battle with Ares Himself, Athena warped down into Diomedes' chariot, guided his arm, and the Greek hero threw a fucking spear that wounded the god of war, sending him running back home crying like a punk bitch.

>>8715214
>>8715280

It's hard to top something like out-dueling the god of war, but it does bear mentioning that Diomedes also bests many of the Trojan War's greatest heroes in tests of strength and skill. He defeats Hector in a duel by cracking him in the skull with a javelin. He beats up Ajax in a full-contact sparring match, which is actually stopped by the Greek generals when they see Diomedes' fury and fear for Ajax's life. He outruns Odysseus in a footrace, and wins a badass Ben-Hur-style chariot race against many other Greek heroes.

>>8715264
I think it was for the reason I said: he's explicitly said to be a lesser fighter than Achilles and isn't memorable in the way that the other slightly lesser-than-Achilles fighters (Hector and Ajax) are because he's just a dude: he isn't a trickster, a behemoth, a demigod--he's an action figure

I think he's bit really in the public eye for two reasons:
1.He's probably seen as a bit boring, a 'Mary sue', compared to the other characters. He's the Superman to Achilles' Batman. People prefer the flawed hero to the perfect one.

2.hes not really relevant to the overall story of the Trojan war. As in if you were giving a brief overview of the war you wouldn't need to include him. He'd be lumped alongside Sarpedon, Nestor etc.

>>8715301

That's a shame, because he really shits on most of the others in every way except Odysseus' cunning.

>>8715301
honestly, though, it's a good question and I don't think we'll find a satisfying answer within the text; I think you'd instead have to look at the history of Greek hero worship and maybe do a little art history.

>>8715243
but achilles' primary struggle wasnt one that would be resolved physically which would be one where a god, in the sense of the god of diomedes, couldn't help him. killing agamemnon wouldn't allow him to be truly the strongest man in the army but rather paint him as someone dishonorable. he is alone in his problem. even his mother couldn't do much for him

>>8715280
>>8715283
no doubt diomedes is a greatest fighter in the army. imho theres no contest between him and achilles. some accounts tell of him being welcomed into olympus by athena at his death (but that isnt strict canon, per se)

>>8715307

You have a point. Shame how the guy who steps up to be the hero the Achaeans need is ignored, when Achilles was pouting about a woman.

>>8715283

Telamonius nearly beat Hektor in a duel before it was interrupted. So he not only beat Hektor, he also beat the guy who was about to beat Hektor. Is this what we're supposed to base Achilles badassness on, beating Hektor?

>>8715322
You're correct, there is no contest between him and Achilles:
do you think Achilles would be repeatedly called "the greatest fighter among all the Greeks" by our reliable narrator (a muse) if he weren't?
have you forgotten that it's fiction?
you can have your own side world in which Diomedes is a greater fighter than Achilles, but it isn't Homer's
what does a theory like that even mean? what would it mean for you to be right? how could your being right be compatible with the reliable narrator of the fiction you're speculating about repeatedly confuting your theory?

>>8715345
jesus

>>8715347
i didnt word it properly. let me rephrase it

im basing the "greatest fighter" in terms of their war achievements. achilles did not wound two gods so in that sense he isnt a better fighter than diomedes in that regard (while being invulnerable) and did not disobey the orders of his superior (diomedes is a better soldier in that regard) but he did solve a problem on his own despite bringing it unto himself

>>8715328
Achilles could kill anyone. Read Ovid's depiction of him to help get the full weight.

"How could anyone dare talk of anything but valor in the presence of an Achilles?"

>>8715352
ah my bad, I thought by "greatest fighter" you meant "greatest fighter"

>>8715364

How are we supposed to understand how great he is if he doesn't do anything as great as a complete mortal?

>>8715365
The descriptions of his kills are supposed to show that he obliterates as opposed to slays.

>>8715365
his greatness consists partly in the fact that he's a demigod. Homer's greatness isn't the affirmative action picture you seem to be committed to--greatness due to innate gifts is not less great than other kinds of greatness

>>8715380

I would think that the modern reader would place more "greatness" in Diomedes due to his deeds, and less on Achilles being great based on being half a god.

>>8715404
that's fine, if we mean by 'great' something other than 'great' (like maybe 'praisworthy') but not relevant, since modern readers don't decide which Homeric heroes are most remembered--this being remembered consists in three millenia of literary and artistic references

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>>8715121
Poor oral tradition.

>>8715380
The idea of any separation between the inherited and the good- that is, of 'Free Will'- is utterly alien to Homeric thought; derived from milennia of Abrahamites' dialectic resulting from their incoherent attempt at monotheism.

>>8715594
>>8715594
that's wrong, compatible with what I said, and poorly expressed; and please tell us more about your incisive genealogical understanding of Abrahamic dialectic, you fucking Feuerbach-reading pseud

>>8715352
>>8715365
Taking it up with a god is not great; it may be bold but it's foolish. I don't think Homer ever meant it otherwise even though he doesn't say it. Achilles does fight a god too--a river god. He gets to prove his valour in that fight and to teach old Scamander a lesson--not all mortals are so easy to wash away--but in the end he needs help from another god getting out of that fight with only an honourable truce. Achilles is in berserk mode all the while and I think that the whole episode serves to show the foolishness of the endeavour. Thus I wouldn't count fighting the gods towards Diomedes' overall greatness; his bravery, sure, but that is not the whole picture.

>>8715214
>he overcomes his problems through the aid of gods (athena and hera) rather than through sheer will. the ancient greeks were humanists

"Sheer will" is not inherently good. You have a point in that it seems like Diomedes was kind of "cheating," but help from the gods was only available because he was so praised by the gods; what better sign of approval could there be for the Greeks?

And for a negative (i.e., negating, not "bad") comment on the "humanist," "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" ideal, consider this passage from Ajax:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_(play)

Wherever men forget their mere man’s nature,
thinking a thought too high, they have no use
of their huge bulk and boldness, but they fall
on most untoward disasters sent by Heaven.
Ajax, even when he first set out from home,
proved himself foolish, when his father gave him
his good advice at parting. ‘Child,’ he said,
‘Resolve to win, but always with God’s help.’
But Ajax answered with a senseless boast:
‘Father, with God’s help even a worthless man
could triumph. I propose, without that help,
to win my prize of fame.’ In such a spirit
he boasted. And when once Athena stood
beside him in the fight, urging him on
to strike the enemy with his deadly hand,
he answered then, that second time, with words
to shudder at, not speak: ‘Goddess,’ he said,
‘Go stand beside the other Greeks; help them.
For where I bide, no enemy will break through.’
These were the graceless words which won for him
the goddess’ wrath; they kept no human measure.

So I agree with you up to a point, in that I would argue that humanism is limited by the danger of hubris.

>>8715121
For the same reason the only part of DQ anybody talks about is the fucking windmills.

Nobody reads it.
>>8715243
>invulnerable
This wasn't actually the case in Homer's Iliad IIRC. He had a thing for not using supernatural stuff (in comparison to others).
>>8715328
My friend that duel was meant to show that Aias and Hektor were evenly matched.

>>8715121
He wasn't as interesting as Achilles or Hector.

>>8716097
Or Ajax, or Odysseus, or Agamemnon.

>>8715121

Because the Achaeans become less important and reduced to poor hillfolk trump supporters by the time people started writing things down. We simply inherited this bias without realizing the origin.

Diomedes is pretty fucking badass. Not only is he the one who discovers the location of the Palladium, he also manages to disarm Odysseus when that bastard tries to stab him in the back. Diomedes represents the honorable Greek driven by necessity, and this scene presents clearly how dishonorable Odysseus truly is and his penchant for killing without justification (which obfuscated in other instances).

>>8716155
>Because the Achaeans become less important and reduced to poor hillfolk trump supporters by the time people started writing things down
Motherfucker it was written during the Greek renaissance.

Diomedes is the glory hound. He's contrasted with the more considered Achilleus, who eventually realises honour and riches are both insufficient.

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>>8715280

To be honest though, Ares seems kind of like a Worf type character, someone who's supposed to be strong but really just loses a lot to establish how badass his opponent is.

Am I wrong here? It seems that if we did an analysis, I'd wager that Ares loses more often than not.

>>8716167

I'm not talking about when the Illiad was written. I'm saying that our reading of the Illiad is colored by classical antiquity and after. I'm saying that it's only natural to see how contemporary people are doing and have that color your perception of them in literature, despite the two not being equivalent.

>>8716183
>by the time people started writing things down
>I'm not talking about when the Illiad was written.
What.

>>8716189

The commentaries. How do we interpret the Illiad? By having read commentaries written by critics who themselves cite older commentaries. The ancient Greeks had an intuitive understanding, but the Romans really need to be lead by the hand and have everything explained to them, in writing. Kind of like you.

>>8716200
>How do we interpret the Illiad? By having read commentaries
What.

>>8716202

I suppose all your thoughts must be original. Please share some of them.

>>8716213
They are, because I am not an autist who reads reams of commentary before reading the actual work.
>inb4 you mistake original for unique

>>8716219

>inb4 you mistake original for unique

By the transitive property, zero equals zero.

>>8716236
Suck my dick.

>>8716114
I never really found Ajax interesting. Do you mean strictly within the context of The Iliad?

>>8716241
No, good point.

>>8715121
Diomedes is boring as fuck. He's just a stupid jock, even moreso than any of the other heroes.

>>8716251
This desu. Obvs that's what makes him interesting, but it's not gonna make him a big deal in the public consciousness.

>>8716219
>I'm not an 'autist' who reads scholarly introductions that help explain context of monumentally important text
>I just read it for the lols

>>8716251

You don't value that he stepped up to be the hero the Argives needed when Achilles was pouting on his the shores?

>>8716531
No, because Achilles was right. We've been over this.

>>8716698

Right about pouting on the beach over some pussy?

>>8716862
you don't understand honor cultures and you don't understand the 2nd most important writer of all time.

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>>8716864

Yeah ok

>>8715121
Because the way that most people who haven't read the works is through pop culture references and adaptations. This has a compounding effect.

He doesn't make the cut for many adaptations, so people aren't aware of him, therefore he gets cut from adaptations.....

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>>8716251

Was Diomedes the original Chad?

Sure he's a badass fighter, but there's to include him in say a movie, it would take away from Achilles. Other than that, he's not someone directors can make into a meme like Ajax.

>>8716894

He wasn't stupid, though.