Do great writers know they're great? Do they set out to

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>>8657599

Are all these writing threads being started by the same person?

No, they probably don't think they're great when they start because in most cases, they're not great. That only sometimes happens after a few books. Ideally you want to be self aware about how shit your writing is.

>>8657599
No, they think "Yeah, I'm pretty fucking good" to other people.
Sorry to be pedantic, but it's the only way you'll learn. And actually, I'm not sorry. You're a tool.

>>8657599
Joyce was a cocky motherfucker. Nabokov too. Gaddis said he when he wrote The Recognitions he wouldn't have been surprised if it won a Nobel.

Writing is an ego-centric activity, don't let all this modern cuckery about humility fool you.

>>8657633
He's right desu

Some of them, yes. Keats famously wrote: "I think I shall be among the English Poets after my death".

But then you have others like Shakespeare, who couldn't give less of a shit about his posthumous reputation.

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>>8657599
I don't know about the rest of them senpai but I sure do

>>8657713
To be fair, Keats also had inscribed on his tomb the words "here lies one whose name was writ in water", so I assume he had variable levels of confidence in the futurity of his work.

>>8657643

This is a letter from Pynchon, by the way.

>>8657599
is necesary to be that way if you want to archive something great
that doesnt mean going around screaming "im so great im a genius"
always hide your power level, kiddo

The very greatest writers disavow how good they are (they know it, yet they do not know it). See Kafka agonizing on being inferior to Dickens:

"I have been reading about Dickens. Is it so difficult and can an outsider understand that you experience a story within yourself from its beginning, from the distant point up to the approaching locomotives of steel, coal, and steam, and you don’t abandon it even now, but want to be pursued by it and have time for it, therefore are pursued by it and of your own volition run before it wherever it may thrust and wherever you may lure it.
I can’t understand it and can’t believe it. I live only here and there in a small word in whose vowel (‘thrust’ above, for instance) I lose my useless head for a moment. The first and last letters are the beginning and end of my fishlike emotion."

>>8657599
>Do great writers know they're great? Do they set out to be?

Yes.

>>8657645
>>8657654

Morons.

>>8657674

If you don't have the skill to recognize the quality of what you do, and the confidence that you are actually doing something, you are a waste of space. Clearly most people who believe this are megalomaniac clueless assholes, but it is the very least requirement to do something worthwhile.

>>8657765
Are you sure that's what he's saying?

>>8657851
Well it seems to me that he's saying it's difficult for him to understand how easy it is for Dickens to write. Then he criticized himself as fishlike for living on the scale of a single word, instead of being able to see an entire story at once.

>>8657599
Of course they know they are good to some extent, they made a great effort to reach that point. Whether they were cocky about it or not depends on the author and its personality.

>>8657765

This passage sounds like he hates his life but really loves writing

>>8657765
I heard Dickens knew all his novels by heart.
Imagine how emasculated Wilkie Collins felt spending time with this guy.
On the other hand, Dickens was also a schizo.

>>8657781
I agree. It takes some level of thinking that seems delusional when one is unproven to get anything worthwhile done. The le I'm so humble mfafag shit is cancer.

>>8657872
He's doubting that he (an "outsider") can even understand or believe that someone can write a story the way dickens writes a story (a way he characterizes as playful, somehow destined, and overwhelmingly vital), and he's contrasting that with the way he writes (basically an opportunity for K to beat himself up, which he's always in danger of doing, this time with a characteristic animal metaphor), which he describes as myopic and overly focussed on little details.

The wonderful irony is that he expresses all that in a very literary way!

And that's how it is with great writers, or at least with Kafka. I feel that he couldn't be so stupid that he wasn't aware, at least on some level, how dynamic and vital his description of how un-dynamic and morbid his writing was was was.

>>8657893
*was was (2, not 3)

>>8657599
Joyce liked to sniff farts

>>8657765
>The very greatest writers disavow how good they are (they know it, yet they do not know it).

Not really. What about Tolstoy, who was so egotistical that he founded his own religion? Milton had the ego of a small planet.

Many of them do, but many try to be modest about it. I remember watching an interview with a poet, and regarding his most well-known poem, he just said "it might be the least shittiest poem I've ever written"

>>8657781
The correct post. Modesty in writing prevents publishing and aspirations for anything less than perfection result in crappy work that's "good enough"

>>8657633
>for centuries
>imortallity
What an idiot

>>8657781
You can have the confidence, but what do you mean by 'the skill to recognize the quality'? Fuck no, if you think you're producing quality, it's more likely that you are deluded than actually talented. And great writing can take years to learn, even if you do have talent.

>>8657765
God damn it I love Kafka so much. I wish I could sit down with him and talk about his insecurities.

>>8658137
>publishing
>he thinks that's the end goal

You can aspire for perfection while still recognizing there is a lot of work between here and there.

>>8657737
its amazing how he writes things at a 90 degree angle, what a genius

>>8658332

Of course it can. But you must have the ability to tell good writing from bad, and know when yours fits that standard. And you don't show anyone anything that you don't KNOW is good. You don't submit it for publishing in the hope that your confidence will be validated, because then you have neither the skill or the ability. You throw it in the fire.

If you do not know in the very core of your being what you are doing, why you are doing it, and that it is the greatest thing ever, you will never be great.

>>8658332
>>8658347
Effete little sissyboy detected.

Yes, we do.

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>>8657599
Not Borges, at least.
Listen to some of his interviews and he´s alwys downplaying the quality of his work and rejecting any praise. He was very humble.

Flaubert was kind of arrogant about it, he definitely knew. Balzac knew, also.

>>8657901
He was a smart fella and a fart smeller

>>8658408
He had reason.

>>8658742
kek

>>8658742
Excellent kek

>>8658746
He´s the best shut up you dildo

>>8657633
is not really that deep, james

>>8658742
can joyce posting be a thing now

>>8658792
I give you my blessing

>>8658843
Also I'm Irish so Joyce's ghost shouldn't be too annoyed

>>8657643
i can't read chinese

Joyce was pretty arrogant though it got pushed back when he started work on Ulysses. It became less about "I'm so great" and more about "I need to make this happen".

>>8657599
I think they know they are good when they get published and people love their work, same as everything else humans do.

You can't really know if something is good, unless you here responses from other people.

>>8657633
The very essence of degenerate writing.

>>8658360
kek

>>8657599
no one great sets out to be great.
wanting the label "great" stuck on you is the most surefire way to be anything but great.
that's not to say you can't trick people into thinking so by repeating it over and over again, look at kanye.

>>8658281
kek

>>8658281
So long as your name's written down somewhere bro, you're alright.

>>8658792
How young you are friend
https://warosu.org/lit/?task=search2&ghost=&search_text=arse+full+of+farts&search_subject=&search_username=&search_tripcode=&search_email=&search_filename=&search_datefrom=2009-12-17&search_dateto=2010-10-06&search_op=all&search_del=dontcare&search_int=dontcare&search_ord=new&search_capcode=all&search_res=post

>>8659992
And what of Julius Caesar?

A great man, who set out to be great

>>8660113
"I totally forgot that I am Doctor Kashmir." said Doctor Kashmir, forgetfully.

>>8658742

I think you mean "a smart feller and a fart smeller"

A sense of profound self-confidence to the point of delusion is something you'll find in most great artists. J D Salinger in his first interview in his early 20s said he expected to be no less than the greatest American writer of his century. Yukio Mishima quit his job at 23 and promised his father to be the best Japanese writer of his time. Adolf Hitler refused to become a clerk in the civil serve as his father wanted him to be and instead suffered poverty and misery as an unemployed bohemian in Vienna before making it big. I can name others. But even by avoiding full-time work and focusing on their art most great writers communicated their ambition to be far more than some mediocre Sunday Painter. Van Gogh refused to work after the age of 27 and openly told his brother that he felt he deserved to be given money because of his talents. Lead Singer Syndrome, referring to the megalomaniacal behaviour of a band's lyricist / lead singer is a consequence of their self-confidence and a by-product of their immense talent and ambition. The greatest footballers are often described as overly-demanding and stubborn. The fact is if you want to be more than anonymous and mediocre in this world you have to demand more out of life than what is afforded most people. You will be accused of being ungrateful, of being childish, of being delusional and pretentious, but only by asserting your demand to succeed will you ever do so. Take me for example. I am 36 years old and have never had a job. My mother supports my artistic ambition and has done so for around 20 years at this point. I simply refuse to be cajoled into working some dead-end, energy-sapping job when I could be using that same time and energy to produce the greatest works of art our species has to offer.

>>8657737
this autobump was sad and cheerful at the same time.
sad because you understand no one give a fuck about your stupid whore attentionness.
cheerful because anyway you put with the greatest of your smile the pedant intentions that you had.

>>8660152
Lol loser

>>8660152
>Take me for example. I am 36 years old and have never had a job. My mother supports my artistic ambition and has done so for around 20 years at this point. I simply refuse to be cajoled into working some dead-end, energy-sapping job when I could be using that same time and energy to produce the greatest works of art our species has to offer.

Nice punchline, anon. It saddens me to think that people will probably take your post as earnest

>>8660188
Nice samefag, I checked

>>8660198
wut

Did it occur to you that I have posted in the thread prior to making that post? As such, the poster count won't increase.

I'm this guy >>8660127

>>8660212
>not knowing how to check IP matching

>>8660271
I don't

Absolutely. But they also say im mediocore at best too

>>8657975
Was that because he was egotistical or because he believed that the Orthodox Church was corrupt and materialistic?

>>8657599
Joyce didn't set out to be great but I know he wanted Ulysses to be regarded as a "Great Work" which is also why it wasn't his favorite to write.

>>8660407
>Joyce didn't set out to be great

Its hard to write something great without trying to write something great

>>8660152
>Adolf Hitler refused to become a clerk in the civil serve as his father wanted him to be and instead suffered poverty and misery as an unemployed bohemian in Vienna before making it big.
>before making it big
This cracked me up

>>8660134
No. No I didn't

>>8660522
I think his other writings were him having fun/making a living being a writer. From his journals he seemed to enjoy reading for plot which contrasts him with people that have high literary knowledge. Only when he wrote Ulysses did he try to be experimental and create something great. While I acknowledge the greatness of Ulysses I would never read it again, I have read Dubliners 3 times though.

>>8660522
I have a great thing I came up with which is relevant and clever.
"History is written by the victor, literature is written by a bunch of losers."

>>8660152
Memoire, is that you?

>>8660564
Finnegans Wake was his greatest work.

>>8657883
The Moonstone is so dull I can't even

>>8660589
'tis I

>>8660127
he went through hardship and came out stronger. he was a great man but he hardly set out to be great in the same way someone might pursue specific paths that he thinks will make him great.

>>8660174

wut?

I was just telling OP who wrote the letter because I forgot in the original post.

It's impossible not to be pretentious. When you're writing to be published, you expect your books to take bookshelf space and readers' time away from Shakespeare, Dante, Proust.

>>8658281

Centuries of debate will probably cement your legacy even after there's a consensus.

>>8660565
TYPICAL VICTOR VICTOROVICH MAKING BASED HITLER LOOK BAD