>PhD scientist >Debunker of falsehoods >Ushered AI into

And I didn't even mention all about Islam and his politics.

I think he's great but I cannot agree with his thesis in the Moral Landscape, and neither can I agree with his retarded support for Shillary Clinton.

By the time every serious moral philosopher has rejected utilitarian ethics Harris discovered it.
Kinda funny.

>>8625214
Yes, blaming all Muslims for a couple of radical terroristic movements is truly rational and scientific. If he read the Qur'an he'd see that it's a fucking beautiful text and that violent Muslims don't represent Islam at all.

>>8625264
I agree. Harris is intelligent, but ill informed.

>>8625264
>If he read the Qur'an he'd see that it's a fucking beautiful text and that violent Muslims don't represent Islam at all.

t. Bilal Ibn Rashdun Al-Kalifi

>>8625264
He has read the Qur'an and the Hadith, have you?

>Moral philosopher giving the world the first moral philosophy based on scientific principles instead of mythological stories

Why are utilitarians and atheists so cringy?

>>8625323
>>8625325
So all you have is racism and false claims. Neat. Stick to /pol/, kids. Fox News is lying to you about Islam.

>>8625328
Why do theists think their opinions matter in a post-theist world?

>>8625212
>first moral philosophy based science, not mythological stories

I'm pretty sure that was Aristotle, over 2000 years ago. Worst case scenario that was Bentham several hundred years ago.

>>8625347
>post-theist world
lad, stop

>>8625374
There's a difference between religion and general theism, adhered to as an ideology. Organised religion will see its death within the century. I don't see an educated populace believing in Jesus/Allah/Pasta in 2100.

Theism might continue however.

Do you honest believe that the world population will be educated enough to have become entirely agnostic or atheist, by 2100? Hahaha. Atheists, agnostics and seculars are still heavily outnumbered by religious folks.

Doesn't Harris explain this too? The human need for ritual, for belief in a higher power, or at least spirituality?

>>8625391
People have been saying this for thousands of years. Many of them religious prophets.

>>8625398
Read the goddamn post properly or don't talk about it.

Theism will not die. Superstition will definitely not die. But I do think organised religion will.

I don't expect to see a mosque in the middle east after a century or two, but people will still believe in reiki/horoscopes and that kind of bullshit.

Also Sam Harris did talk about this, but he made clear to satisfy man's need for spirituality in other pursuits, not in organised religion.

>>8625264
While it is true that not all muslims are terrorists, most terrorist acts that affect our society are performed by muslims.
So the problem lies in the Islam.

>>8625398
In the US, the most highly educated groups with the highest average IQs are Anglicans, Roman Catholics, Jews, and atheists. In that order. That said, you'd have to be an idiot to go to college these days.

>>8625411
>That said, you'd have to be an idiot to go to college these days.

You're kidding right?

>>8625212
Sounds spooky af 2bh.

Organised religion exists because there are a huge number of people believing in the same thing. I seriously doubt that central religious dogma will disappear within the century...

We both agree on spirituality or religiosity, whatever you want to call it, is essential to human nature. If we just so happen to believe the same thing(s), a social hierachy and structure will quickly arise. Boom. Organised religion.

>>8625477
It's the morning and I'm nursing a hangover so forgive the stupidity. I guess you're right in that it might happen in that manner. I'm still reluctant to admit that the current religions will persist however.

I see organised religion as a plague. A deliberate surrendering of your intellectual capabilities to someone else. Do you think there's a possibility for the average person to maintain his intellectual independence despite religion in the future?

Current religions? Probably not. New ones? Most likely.

Internet debates and hangovers don't go hand in hand ;)

You also surrender large portions of your personal liberty/freedom, in a democracy. Engaging in any social setting will mean surrendering some kind of freedom. Being part of a group limits the individual, but widens the horizon for the group. It's a trade-off, one that was evolutionarily chosen. People who disregard these norms, morals etc., those we term "psychopaths". Fitting in 101.

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>>8625345
>Fox News is lying to you about Islam.
They aren't.

Unfortunately there is too much fear of being called islamophobic for people to really be saying the truth about Islam.

It's a wicked cult which is the source of much suffering in the world, should have been stamped out a long time ago.

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>>8625264
He's 100% on point about Islam.

>>8625504
I find it very intriguing that social dynamics is this simultaneous push and pull between the maverick, who has to buck social norms in order to progress and the kook, who is treated like a fool for not conforming. It's a fine line.

It is indeed a fine line. On one side you have total anarchy, and on the other, smothering control.

Nature vs. civilization.
Nature vs. nurture.
Instinct vs. self-control.
etc.

>>8625264
how much do you get paid to post things like this?

>>8625345
>So all you have is racism and false claims.

You're the one who only has false claims. Sam Harris in no way generalizes Muslims, and yet you're spreading that meme because you're a retarded idiot.

>>8625529
even Trump can see what is going on..
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/02/politics/donald-trump-barack-obama-hillary-clinton-created-isis/index.html

>>8625212
>Spiritually enlightened , giving the world the fist fool-proof way to become like a living Buddha, but without religion


what way?

Anyway thats not new, Buddhism practices are very secular, thats why is so popular in the west.

>>8625212
Honestly, David Hume's philosophy is what he's building off of. The billiard model of the universe has been well accepted by scientists since Darwin. It's just taken time for it to meme into everyone else's minds.

>>8625543
>Buddhism practices are very secular

They really aren't in reality, it's just that it's easier to remove the supernatural and metaphysical claims from it than from Abrahamic religions.

>>8625264
Ideology is always subject to scrutiny. It is very clear there is a flaw with doctrine created by an illiterate pedophilic warlord from the middle east.

I mean, we could go on and on, but Islam clearly needs heavy reform.

>>8625345
>racism
Pack it in lads critique some anachronistic sandbox beliefs and you're a racist

>>8625264
>Yes, blaming all Muslims for a couple of radical terroristic movements is truly rational and scientific.
He doesn't do this.

>If he read the Qur'an he'd see that it's a fucking beautiful text and that violent Muslims don't represent Islam at all.
lol. Also he does say he enjoys the Qur'an readings, their traditional music etc etc.

>violent Muslims don't represent Islam at all.
They sure are living in accordance with the teachings though.

>>8625561
>it's just that it's easier to remove the supernatural and metaphysical claims from it than from Abrahamic religions.
Not that anon and I kind of agree with you, but I'd add that it is not easier to do so because of an inherent quality of buddhism or abrahamic religion, but because it is a foreign religion in the west. When you hear of it as something new, you don't understand it and as you don't understand it you try to understand it and you'll understand it by using your own tools and developping notions of it, therefore it will make a lot of sense in the best way possible (that doesn't mean they DO understand it, there isn't even a precise object to be understood, culture is always in transformation). Meanwhile, because we live inside the world of abrahamic religion, you either accept it and go with it without critical thinking or you deny it as something inherently bad and pointless. You don't have the tools to distance yourself from it and transform it.

>>8625264
t. delusional leftist.

>>8625431
I think the point he's making is that since information is far more accessible than ever before if you actually want to just learn you can do that all you want with a library card and a internet connection.
The main use for colleges would be social reinforcement, and with the college culture becoming increasingly anti-free speech and open discussion at least in america, college loses a lot of it worth.
At least for humanities. But there is shit like 'lesbian transgender farming' out there, so don't think the sciences are safe. Thanks to global climate change especially, which wants you to shut up if you hold a different opinion no matter what you base it on.

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>>8625264
Muhammad, regarded as the perfect man by Islam, was literally a warlord.

#religionofpeace

>>8625212
Although nobody has pointed it out yet, Zizek and Harris are perhaps the two greatest living philosophers of our time, and I think there are indeed deep similarities and common themes in their writing that have yet to be explored. Although I hesitate to compare Harris and Zizek to the like of Wittgenstein or Heidegger, surely they are at least of the same tier as figures like Bertrand Russell and Jean Paul-Sartre. No doubt they will influence generations of philosophers to come.

>>8625218
'Serious' philosophy only like stuff that they can circlejerk about without consequences, the less pragmatic the better.

Religion is man's greatest anti-depressant. I fail to see how Harris' philosophy is as potent and uplifting to the soul.

>>8625715
>Religion is man's greatest anti-depressant.
no, that's salt

>>8625715
>Religion is man's greatest anti-depressant.
It only works on dumb people though since it causes persistent cognitive dissonance in the intelligent.

>>8625692
Actually, Sam Harris has rendered other philiosophy defunct. There will be no more after him.

>>8625212
Even though you said this isn't bait I'm still not sure I believe you.

Sam Harris is pop-philosophy for people who know nothing about philosophy.

>>8625328
Seriously

>>8625686
People just don't want to find the real truth, that you can find in books written on the subject.
It's simple.

Rich, bored oil kingpins got extorted or donated themselves by islamic mosques, and some of those mosques weren't exactly on the straight and narrow. They had a bunch of ne'er do wells who mostly middle-class(according to CIA) or even rich themselves like Osama bin laden was, who were bored and young and wanted something fun to do.
That's the real reason why Islamic terrorism is the most common in the world. Because even some states openly support it, high level and rich people support it, and the cultural shift going on thanks to technology in the region is MASSIVE.

It's not just, "oh these guys are crazy'. It's a vast combination of factors that makes these guys get lauded like heroes for taking down the 'great satan' that influencing their culture so heavily.

Not everyone wants to sacrifice their beliefs so readily for money and advancement. They are just trying to find meaning in life, by being dicks, aren't they just like you and me?

>>8625507
Have you ever lived in a Muslim country?

>>8625212
>>Moral philosopher giving the world the first moral philosophy based on scientific principles instead of mythological stories
Can someone tl;dr this for me?

Either Sammy found a solution to objective values without God that was overlooked for 10k years or he suffers from Dunning–Kruger effect.

>>8625734
Muslims are only tolerable to the degree that they do not take their own religion seriously.

The problem with Salafists is not that they corrupt the teachings. The problem is that they follow them to the letter.

>>8625212
>guide to spirituality without religion

redundant. this isn't new. a child at play could teach you about "spirituality" if you just opened your fucking head

>>8625727
I think only dumb people would dismiss religion as something exclusive to dumb people. Science is a humbling thing. And having faith while also pursuing the truth can strengthen the morale and fortitude. I've seen famous biologists make grand speeches about the value of religion. I've seen dumb people make grand speeches for the opposite.

>>8625734
>>8625737
My friend is a coptic christian who fled egypt. They tax them higher and treat them subhuman. Islamic history is a history of subjugating other religious groups until they convert out of necessity.

>>8625734
>Have you ever lived in a Muslim country?

Europeans will in a couple of generations unfortunately.

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>>8625731
>They are just trying to find meaning in life, by being dicks, aren't they just like you and me?
Sounds more like brown Stormfags to be honest.

I'm more about Schopenhauerian resignation.

>>8625264

all these people getting baited. fuck this board.

>>8625747
>My friend is a coptic christian who fled egypt. They tax them higher and treat them subhuman.
This is exactly how Mohammed prescribed them to act as well.

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>>8625747
>>8625756

>normiedom: now a philosophy edition

Life affirmation leads to autism.

>>8625753
You don't even have to go that far, just young men in general wanting to slap their dick in the face of authority. With money. And military training. Sometimes, by the U.S.
>>8625735
>'moral questions' will have objectively right and wrong answers which are grounded in empirical facts about what causes people to flourish

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Landscape
I was curious because you posted the question.
He's probably going to end up proving right simply because of what I know about psychology. Past a certain point, people are going to get told they are full of shit.
They actually already invented machines that read your mind and your dreams, even if they are primitive right now.

It's just a matter of time before you go into a clinic and they tell you exactly how you're full of shit and what to do about it.

>>8625769
>flourish

That sounds even more vague and wacky than counting hedons.

I find it annoying that Sam Harris threads are always derailed by SJWs dead set on defending Islam, distracting everyone from the fact that Harris is a shit philosopher and a shit scientist regardless of his political views.

>>8625731
Even a blind man can see that what the Quran prescribes is at odds with modern society.

You can't explain that away by labelling Islamists dishonest believers. These people take the religion to radical level precisely because they take it as true and reject traditional institutions that monopolised interpretation of this sacred texts.

>>8625218
"""""""""""serious""""""""""" philosophy kek

>>8625773
I totally missed what you were trying to say. I assume hedons is hedonists.
>>8625812
In other words, their beliefs are inconvenient. I know, everyone knows that. It's why I think the west is trying so hard to mollify them at the highest levels, because they know how bad it could get.

>>8625812
>is at odds with modern society.

Most people's opinions are at odds with modern society.

The difference is how eager you are to start shooting because of it.

He's great on Islam and other issues but

>Atheistic moral realism
>Supporting Hilldog

>>8625843
>Atheistic moral realism

What's the other option do you think? Deontology? Divine Command theory?

lel

>>8625509
Kek isn't that just Sam Harris? It says Ben Stiller. I am confused now.

>>8625843
I honestly think that the main reason why the intellectual left are supporting hilary is because they just want to be 'democrat' and have just decided to handwave or downright ignore the messiness of the reality in favor of their ideology.

>>8625863
No, it's because they are virtue signaling that Trump needs to be destroyed.

I bet a lot of them secretly are voting for Trump they just have to shut the fuck up about it in public or suffer never getting invited to anything ever again.

>>8625843
He's not 'supporting' her, it's more of a lesser of two evils approach. Hillary is evil but a regular politician and puppet and things will probably remain the same. Trump is a loose cannon.

It's a pretty pragmatic choice. Better the devil you know and so on.

>>8625913
>He's not 'supporting' her, it's more of a lesser of two evils approach

Which is really ridiculous, because Harris is afraid of what Trump *might* do, meanwhile Hillary is literally a war criminal and needs to be in jail for what she *has* in fact, done.

On the topic of Hillary, he's completely out of sync with his reason.

>>8625943
His argument is that with Hillary it's the same old same old, whereas Trump is a very risky wildcard based on how he conducts himself, how he speaks like an idiot and so on.

He also trusts Hillary to act rationally in the face of Islamic terror etc, whereas he doubts whether Trump will (which is a fair point imo, there's no way we'd know how Trump would act -- he's said some outrageous shit).

Didn't he say that it's okay to kill people for what they think?

>>8625955
>it's the same old same old

Yeah, and given how the U.S has been acting since 9/11, the "same old, same old" is a fucking bad idea.

>>8625955
>he's said some outrageous shit

What has Trump said that would cause a reasonable person to believe in would act irrationally in the face of terrorism? The worst I can think of is that Trump may want to ban all Muslims from immigrating whereas Hillary's strategy to fight terrorism seems to be bringing more Muslims into the country. One is arguably effective while the other is guaranteed to increase the amount of terrorism in the US.

>>8625212
the intellectual for the average autist

>>8625965
It's far from perfect, yes.

>>8625983
Honestly I'm on the fence about this myself, not sure where I'd fall. I really, really despise Clinton and I'd love for her to lose, but at the same time there's no way I'd want Trump winning. I honestly can't believe those are the two choices the US is faced with, sham democracy imo.

I guess I misrepresented him there with "he's said some outrageous shit". Sure. I guess a better representation of Sam's views would be that mostly everything he says makes him seem like a retard more or less. Anyway I don't wanna potentially misrepresent his views, here's his take on the matter, it hasn't changed that much as of recent afaik.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az1JyDJ_iKU

>>8625410
>most terrorist acts that affect our society are performed by muslims. So the problem lies in the Islam.
hmm and here i was thinking it has something to do with decades of political instability in predominantly islamic nations in part because of the influence of western interests; the same west which is demonized by modern radicals which are more likely to emerge during political instability.
glad you figured it out for me

>>8626017
Yeah, I'm sure Muslim extremists killed the satirists at Charlie Hebdo, because the West is interfering with countries in the Middle-East.

>>8626033
and why do people become extremist?

>>8626074
>and why do people become extremist?

In Islam's case it's because Islam is extreme.

There is a reason Muslims call the West Dar-Al Harb, because they will never see us as anything other than enemies and a place that needs to be destroyed.

>>8626074
If you actually believe a religion to be true and realize you haven't been following it, you may look to your religions icon/hero and his contemporaries for guidance on how to lead a good, ethical life in line with what God wants. And in the case of Islam, Mohammed and his contemporaries happened to be fucking nuts and killed people for petty shit, acting pretty much like ISIS today in many regards.

So yeah, ACTUALLY believing your religion to be true in combination with the religion being shit is probably one reliable way to become an extremist.

>>8626095
you didn't answer my question.
why do people become extremist?

>>8626106
That's exactly what he did. The ideology itself is extreme.

>>8626101
you think most muslims/christians don't believe their religion to be true?

>>8626111
no he didn't. by that logic america should be an extremely homophobic society.

>>8626120
I don't see how that follows the same logic.

>>8626120
>by that logic america should be an extremely homophobic society.

And it used to be extremely homophobic, and still is in some parts of the country.

But that's because of secular resistance to gay-bashing religious people.

>>8626113
2 differences:

1) Jesus was not a warlord like Mohammed and his muslim contemporaries who were pretty much the ISIS of the time. He's held up as the perfect muslim so for someone who ACTUALLY believes and is intellectually honest, he won't be able to square rationalizing Islam as peaceful whereas a Christian could easily do that.

2) The medina period and abrogation. In the latter period where Islam had gained power, most of their moderate verses were overwritten by latter ones calling for war, since they were now actually in a place where they could easily spread the faith by sword.

So yeah, if you're well-versed enough in the qur'an you can't really make up your own definitions and interpretations that easily, it's all pretty cut and dry. The scholars of both Mohammeds time and present day scholars have interpreted it for you, in accordance with what Mohammed him self ordained. This is clearly not the case with and it's thus millions of times easier to interpret verses to your own liking to fit the society you live in and the life you'd want to live.

So yeah, they both believe their religions to be true but only one holds these additional problematic aspects.

>>8626129
Let me throw in two more important points:

1) The qur'an is short and easily read whereas the bible is a long mess, nobody is gonna read it in an afternoon

2) Most preachers tend to be a lot more moderate than most imams on average. You'd be hard-pressed to find any imam, even the most moderate ones, being in favor of, say, homosexuality. Islam is very clear on that and the statistics reflect that.

>>8626124
try thinking.
>>8626126
russia is pretty secular.
either way you haven't answered my question.
why do people become extremist?
>>8626129
it's nothing to do with muslim vs christianity. you said "believing your religion to be true in combination with the religion being shit is probably one reliable way to become an extremist."
you think if someone believes their religion to be true they will become an extremist?

>>8626153
>you think if someone believes their religion to be true they will become an extremist?
If the religion preaches extremism, then yes. Which is true in Islam's case.

>>8626153
>"believing your religion to be true in combination with the religion being shit is probably one reliable way to become an extremist."
Yes, with
>being shit
including the criteria I listed in the following post here
>>8626129 that Christianity doesn't have. Don't get me wrong, all religion is shit but not every religion produces extremists are the rate of Islam, what I meant by "shit" in that context is just that.

So again
>>8626129

>>8626159
you think islam is interpreted the same way in china as it is in the middle east?

>>8626192
http://www.wsj.com/articles/china-terror-claims-bolstered-by-new-evidence-1469435872

http://www.ibtimes.com/isis-china-muslim-uighur-population-joining-islamic-state-syria-iraq-amid-poor-2393560

>>8626201
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/06/16/westboro-church-protest-orlando-shooting-victims-funerals/86013966/

so all christians want homosexuals to die?

>>8626138
It doesn't matter how something is currently interpreted, what's more important is how something can be interpreted. With enough effort, anyone can go to Xinjiang and stir up some Islam seen in the Middle East today. Similarly with enough effort, anyone can use Islam to create something more "Western friendly" aside from the treatment of women, gays, religious minorities and other societal limitations on things like drugs and alcohol.

Any group of people who are programmed to believe in the Quran can at any time be made into Muslim extremists without having to change the source material in any way. All you have to do is start talking about the parts of the book that aren't spoken about when Islam is the minority in a place.

>>8626219
There's the difference between Christian and Muslim extremists. One will hold signs protesting their lifestyles, the other will take a gun and actually murder them in cold blood.

>>8626234
>Any group of people who are programmed to believe in the Quran can at any time be made into Muslim extremists without having to change the source material in any way. All you have to do is start talking about the parts of the book that aren't spoken about when Islam is the minority in a place.
I agree and this is a problem, the book is bad by it's very nature and prone to this when actually believed. And as pointed out here >>8626129
the prophet, held up as the most perfect muslim etc actually lived in line with that, murdering people, sentencing people to death for adultery, homosexuality, offending the faith, worshipping false idols and other petty shit.

>Similarly with enough effort, anyone can use Islam to create something more "Western friendly" aside from the treatment of women, gays, religious minorities and other societal limitations on things like drugs and alcohol.
That's a pretty big aside, and that's also what's been tried. But again, the latter half of your reply still holds true here, at any time they can ACTUALLY read the book and the hadiths of Mohammeds contemporaries and see how they lived, and how they're not currently living like the perfect muslims did, most importantly the muslim who was actually chosen by God as his messenger and directly responsible for creating the faith this said individual believes in.

>>8625747
You should read some Sufi literature, it's very different to the hatred that is Wahabism. I'm sorry about your friend, injustice is everywhere, although I remember a story of Egyptians forming a human wall to protect Coptic Christians too.

>>8626237
so you think all religious people are extremist by default and all christians hate gays and all muslims are murderers.

>>8625826
>I totally missed what you were trying to say. I assume hedons is hedonists.

hedon

Noun
(plural hedons)

(economics) A unit of pleasure used to theoretically weigh people's happiness.

It's pretty much a hopeless utilitarian attempt at quantifying pleasure.

>>8625347
You must be confused, 4chan's for adults.

>>8626267
Not him but all Christians are against homosexual acts and all Muslims do condone of murder of kuffar, otherwise they literally disagree with the Prophet (pbuh).

>>8626264
sufis are a tiny meme subset that get used to no true scotsman islam out of any embarassing exposure of its barbarism

>>8625391
> Jesus/Allah/Pasta
Yeah the flying spaghetti monster is totally equal to rigorously studied theologies.

>>8626267
>so you think all religious people are extremist by default and all christians hate gays and all muslims are murderers.
No. Nowhere have I said this.

>>8626295
>Yeah the flying spaghetti monster is totally equal to rigorously studied theologies.
Depends on the context. In terms of them being close to equally silly beliefs, yes, they're all equal.

>>8625743
Hey! Don't ruin our circlejerk!
This Reddit and that's what we do here!

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>>8626295
>if i make my fairy tale obscurantist enough it gains in legitimacy

>>8625743
>. Science is a humbling thing. And having faith while also pursuing the truth can strengthen the morale and fortitude.
If you need a god of the gaps to make it through the day you lack the fortitude to pursue truth in the first place.

>>8625411
Do you have a source for this?

>>8626313
I'd agree, but I also heard some physicist taking "pretend leaps of faith" in order to get from A to B more smoothly, of course that wasn't religion or God, just "faith" used as a tool to keep the ball moving.

Anyway that was pretty much a non-argument anyway if it was attempting to be one, smart people can believe stupid shit and vice versa.

>>8626323
Believing stupid shit as a smart person is more likely to lead to cognitive dissonance though because you have the capacity to reflect on your beliefs and how they relate to one another.

>>8626314
Here's one for the opposite claim: http://psr.sagepub.com/content/17/4/325

>>8626327
Yeah I don't disagree. It happens though, but education level etc is correlated with lower religiosity, so it's less likely to be the case.

>>8626292
Sufis priests used to be some of the most senior advisors of Persia and India. It's a faith that's declined sharply, but for a reason. Wahabism has replaced it with US backed Saudi money and a violent reaction against Western meddling. The anger of current Islam, a religion and culture that in the 13th C was years ahead of medieval Europe and under the Ottoman empire was very modern in it's outlook, is a direct response to the anger we've created in an area of the world we've been continually exploiting since the crusades.

>>8626313
You should google Goedel's Theorem for a prime example of the religiosity of every day experience.

>>8626335
Depends on the type of education. Right now in western countries, education is mostly anti-religion. Or atleast anti-Christianity.

>>8625774
Thank you for getting on to what this thread should be about.

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>>8626344
Sure, there is a leap that does take place and a certain level of faith and uncertainty that we must accept to 'function', but that doesn't mean Gödel's theorems and the Münchhausen trilemma and such are good reasons to become a full blown Christian or something.

I don't think 'we can't know le nuthin so we might as well believe anything' is a sensible response. It just leads to further entanglement.

>>8626301
How is believing in a metaphysical divine entity equal to thinking in a spaghetti monster?

>>8626308
>Oh, I don't have a good response to this, better just call it a spook, because that never gets old.

>>8625774
Sam Harris isn't as much of a philosopher as he is a gatekeeper of things being researched right now. He's trying to become the Carl Sagan of consciousness.

>>8626382
There's no reason why elaborate nonsense is more respectable than simple nonsense.

>>8626377
They're both metaphysical divine entities and neither have any proof whatsoever in their favor.

>>8626403
> neither have any proof whatsoever in their favor.
Have you tried reading Aquinas?

>>8626398
Okay, that's a better response.
Have you found a belief system that isn't nonsense?

>>8626423
Strictly speaking there is no such thing as non-nonsense but I tend to go for those beliefs which cause the least cognitive dissonance.

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>>8625212

>I'm not baiting
>fool-proof way to become like a living Buddha
>The Da Vinci of our time?

Uh-huh

>>8626530
Then your beliefs aren't beliefs but a refusal to accept anything that doesn't have any surface level appeal. Christianity is pretty unintuitive at first glance but can become the most obvious revelation if you submit to it. Guarding yourself from ideas, fearing it will become a "spook" is self-limiting in the worse way.

>>8626979
>can become the most obvious revelation if you submit to it
creepy desu

Lord Jesus.
Judge these retards
With fiery doom.

>>8625748
It's already happening in France, Germany, England and Sweden

>>8625748
lol

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>>8626361
You probably are safer with a Pyrrho.
Doesn't mean shit, the Apostles lived on the fucking edge you probably couldn't even keep up if you tried living with one of them.
You probably couldn't even get out of bed in the morning if it weren't for your burberry scarf you inept fuckwit you and your piffy little syllogisms.

>>8626403
You have no proof, for all you know you might not exist, so shut up. What's proof to you, appeal to reality? Reality ain't even real by itself, a purely material reality would be totally uniform and nothing could be said to exist since existence would not be qualitatively different from non-existence, the only place that difference arises is within consciousness, which should not be possible in a purely material conception of the universe because my perception would be the same as my being since consciousness doesn't actually exist because that would be crazy since consciousness isn't made of material so in my made up empirically verifiable paradise God doesn't exist, little do I know reality is not abject from experience and anything which is known is real and has just as much eidetic vividness as the physically palpable things we perceive every day.

>>8627539
you didnt say Amen.

Babbys first "intellectual".

>>8625212
https://mobile.twitter.com/SamHarrisOrg/status/787755837787742208

>>8626289
no they fucking don't you massive retard. try getting out of your cave and talking to more than your equally autistic militant-atheist friend.
>>8626298
you implied it.
you equate believing someone's religion to be true as being extremist. you think anyone who's religious thinks their religion is untrue? that's some serious stupidity.
you possess a retarded understanding of how religion functions in society by thinking the average religious person will take the entire text literally. and just because some imams preach violence hardly means the majority of the religion is like that which you are framing it as.
try getting your information from more sources than sam harris fanpages maybe.

>>8625264
Yikes

>>8628089
>you implied it.
No I didn't.

>ou equate believing someone's religion to be true as being extremist. you think anyone who's religious thinks their religion is untrue? that's some serious stupidity.
Maybe I didn't make it clear. Oh wait, I did:
>If you actually believe a religion to be true and realize you haven't been following it, you may look to your religions icon/hero and his contemporaries for guidance on how to lead a good, ethical life in line with what God wants. And in the case of Islam, Mohammed and his contemporaries happened to be fucking nuts and killed people for petty shit, acting pretty much like ISIS today in many regards.

I.e. you believe it is true AND you look into what your religion ACTUALLY says, how the most perfect specimens of said religion lived their lives, how it was justified in accordance with the teachings and so on. THEN the conditions for (one way to) extremism I've layed out are fulfilled. Nice strawman though.

>>8627626
>You have no proof, for all you know you might not exist, so shut up. What's proof to you, appeal to reality?
Lmao. Yes, appeal to reality. I care about the reality we actually live in, the reality we can observe, the reality where if I eat cyanide I die. I don't care about your fantasy land, try dropping a cyanide pill and see how real reality is and whether we can make accurate predictions within it.

>>8625509
black guy on twitter crying laughing face x3

>>8625212
>Moral philosopher giving the world the first moral philosophy based on scientific principles instead of mythological stories
>Spiritually enlightened
Well meme-d and a quality thread, my friend.

>>8628359
It's very well-memed, but I still think it's the better way to go about dealing with morality. We should agree on an objective measure for morality since it actually has an influence on politics and other people, well-being is a good measure and generally tends to correlate with what we already hold to be moral in most regards.

Why should we not use this as a measure for enacting policies and so on? What's the better alternative? Everyone's personal whims?

>>8628385
>We should agree on an objective measure for morality
God and the commandments in the Bible have been established as the moral standard in the Western ex-Christian world, what's wrong with it?

On a serious note, I know this is a bait thread but I feel like Sam Harris is massively misunderstood.
I feel like people actively try to misunderstand him because he irks them in one way are another, it might be his 'obnoxious' anti-theism or his smug face (which isn't really his own fault since one of his eyebrows is naturally raised more than the other).

He makes a good case against the fact-value distinction, and it's not like he's the first philosopher to do this, AFAIK Nietzsche has also done this yet people give Sam Harris shit for "ignoring" Hume, when in reality he spents half of his controversial book The Moral Landscape on arguing coherently against Hume.

Now Harris is still ultimately wrong about "objective morality", but under the pretense that everyone or most people are utilitarian in some sense or another, you can derive a system of morality that survive scrutiny for most people in this world.

I have never read a coherent argument against Sam Harris except for
>he's a stupid anti-theist!
>he's a neo-con!
>he's a racist!
>he's an Islamophobe!
>he ignores Hume!

>>8628395
It's not applicable to most situations, nor is it objective.

>>8628487
>It's not applicable to most situations
How so?
>nor is it objective
Which is an objective fact, I presume?

>>8628395
Irrational hatred of boipuss

>>8628493
>How so?
Because they'll tell us nothing about whether, say, stem cell research is okay, whether torture is okay, whether slipping narcotics into someone's drink is okay and so on and so forth.

>Which is an objective fact, I presume?
Yep. It's literally just the opinion of whatever guy wrote them.

>>8628518
>Because they'll tell us nothing about whether, say, stem cell research is okay, whether torture is okay, whether slipping narcotics into someone's drink is okay and so on and so forth.
But of course they do. Are you being sarcastic?

>Yep. It's literally just the opinion of whatever guy wrote them.
Whenever I read something as moronic as this, it's really hard not to resort to insults. Do you even bother to think about what you write, or do you just hit your keyboard whenever anything pops into your mind?

He can't avoid getting shit on by my Noam "The Gnome" Chomskeroo

>>8628628
>But of course they do. Are you being sarcastic?
Demonstrate how.

>Whenever I read something as moronic as this, it's really hard not to resort to insults. Do you even bother to think about what you write, or do you just hit your keyboard whenever anything pops into your mind?
No counterargument, dismissed.

>>8628689
Why is he so salty ?

>>8625212
nah that would be harrari

>>8628729
I considered, for a moment, explaining to you what's wrong with your comments as I would to a child, but I'm in a bad mood already. So I'm just taking the classic 4chan shitflinging route unless you start over by actually saying something that's consistent with the line of reasoning you're defending.
>It's not applicable to most situations, nor is it objective.
>Yep. It's literally just the opinion of whatever guy wrote them.
Me calling you a retard is the only argument you're going to get until you actually present an argument yourself instead of spouting borderline retarded sentences and expecting a retort.
A few more responses like that and I'm going to start posting reaction images, so you'll be able to call me a memer and wiggle out of the conversation without ever having presented a single rational thought, thus convincing yourself you've actually won an argument. Always happy to help.
By the way, my opinions are objective truth, so you better quit now.

>>8628764
Still no (counter)argument in sight.

>>8625347
Careful with all that euphoria there lad

there is a 0% chance this isn't bait.

People don't take anything this guy says seriously right?

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>>8625212
>I'm not baiting

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Anyone have the first one of these?

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>>8628953

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>>8628823

>>8629033
2/10

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>>8629141
How about this?

>>8625692
nice b8

>>8629159
6.66/10

>>8626386
this is pretty accurate

HELLO IGNORANT HARRISITES
WHO IS DAVID HUME?
WHAT IS THE IS-OUGHT GAP?
GET REKT.

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>>8625212
>I'm not religious, I'm spiritual

>>8625212
Isn't Sam Harris that fedora guy people take seriously for some reason who says religion is the root of all evil?

>>8625212
>spirituality

>>8630494
Nah, that's Hitchens

>>8630494
No, he says religion is one cause of evil.

>>8625212
ASS WIPE

>>8628326
nice retard logic you got going there.
so if a christian believes his religion to be true and he goes and look into what his religion says he should be killing homosexuals, adulterers and anybody who breaks the ten commandments. everyone religious believes their religion to be true you fucking idiot, that doesn't equate to them being psycho-fucks who take every single word out of their scripture literally. there are some muslim people who do, there are some christian people who do and there are also some psycho-fucks who write their own literature and go on killing sprees. ever tried to expand your autistic little mind and try to actually understand what makes someone do something stupid?
i love how harris-esque pseuds love to present their argument with this rational aesthetic while blatantly playing the rhetoric game and giving the most caricatured views of whatever their up against. it's like you have no idea how the world and people work but you want to give these retarded infantile hypotheticals that only fool other autists but when presented to anyone existing in the real world falls apart.

>>8625264

>he thinks it's a vocal minority

Polls conducted worldwide concluded that between 50% and 75% of Muslims (even in secular countries) believe the following:

- It's okay to kill homosexuals
- It's okay to beat women
- Apostasy should be punishable by beheading

Here you go

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/islamist-girls-school-jamia-al-hudaa-taught-pupils-gay-people-should-be-killed-forced-closure-aliyah-a7361596.html

>>8631857
>so if a christian believes his religion to be true and he goes and look into what his religion says he should be killing homosexuals, adulterers and anybody who breaks the ten commandments.
There are contrary chapters he can (and most likely will) cling to seeing as it's a very contradictory book and most of it is just consistant of metaphors and shit like that that can be swayed either way.

The qur'an on the other hand ordains shit like laws and has the concept of abrogation (latter verses are the ones that count if they contradict), in the latter part of Islam, in the Medina period, Islam had enough power to stop being tolerant and start conquering shit, so yeah, the latter verses are worse and it's not as easy to square with modernity. Additionally if you look at the way Mohammed and his contemporaries lived, they were living sort of like ISIS is today.

The mental gymnastics required to square Islam with modernity is a lot harder than with Christianity if you're intellectually honest. Jesus did not go around murdering people, he preached tolerance and kindness.

>>8625328
This.
>>8625212
You should read some normative ethics. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has some great entries on it.
>>8625848
You should read some metaethics. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has some great entries on it.
>>8630494
You should develop a healthy sense of intellectual skepticism, and then read The Geneaology of Morals. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has some great entries on it.

>>8631866
that was clearly an example to show the retarded nature of assuming someone is going to take the scripture of their religion word for word.
religious people look at the context they're living in and alter it to fit in with it. to assume that the average religious person living in a particular setting is going to fuck everything up for themselves because of a book is a really retarded idea propagated by morons. religion doesn't do any of that, people do it.

>The mental gymnastics required to square Islam with modernity is a lot harder than with Christianity if you're intellectually honest
how are there 3 million muslim-americans living without much trouble then? sure you have fucking crazies who blow shit up or preach crazy shit but how many of them are there relative to the majority who just want to live normal lives?

>Jesus did not go around murdering people, he preached tolerance and kindness.
what about WBC protesting at funerals then? don't you realize that shitty people use religion as an excuse to do whatever shitty thing they want to do as opposed to doing shitty things purely because their text tells them to do so?

stop looking at this issue in this myopic bullshit way where you cherrypick the shit parts in the qo'ran without considering how people interpret religion in the first place. nobody with a decent life and a sound mind is going to fuck it all up because of a book.

>>8631810

kind of bs

the most important role of organized religion it was to be the glue to unite states and nations together

religion also served as one of the foundation of culture

hence why heresies, apostasies and, to a less extent, other religions were treated harshly, because those were political offenses which threatened the state's integrity and stability. pagan religions were relatively mild, they usually allowed people to worship other gods as long as they respected the local ones (but if you refused to respect the local gods you could be forced to take poison like socrates or to have a wrestling match with a lion like roman christians etc). pagan religions were too nation-based and so they largely fell to international religions like christianity and islam, because those created the same cultural field for many different nations to interact with each other; so pagan states often accepted them not by force but by political will of their rulers because it gave them a lot of advantages to trade and to conclude alliances. as you see, religions were incredibly important for civilization

there was a catch with international religions though, two the most popular ones - christianity and islam - are monotheistic and therefore are very against other gods, except the only god, and so they are ideologically much less tolerant than pagan religions. christianity also has a complicated theology and a strong church, which sharpened the problems with heresies, church power and its abuse, anti-clericalism etc

the religions are not the only such glue, any ideology can do the same, consider communism, or it can be a culture itself like the modern western glue - the western culture. speaking more accurately, the glue usually was a mix of culture and religion, and the western culture aims to unite nations not by its culture only but also by the modern ideology of humanism, and it still have a strong influence of catholicism and protestantism. it is sometimes not easy to tell culture from ideology

speaking about islam, by itself it is no more violent and intolerant than christianity (consider the medieval islamic countries, or google one of the big musilm cities in europe - kazan, it is in russia though so its tolerance still is not on the strict western level :3), but the dominant muslim culture (or more precisely a bunch of similar cultures) is indeed violent and intolerant and since culture and religion are mixed it can taint all muslims, even those who belong to less intolerant cultures

you know, it is not even really that relevant what's written in the holy books, the new testament calls for mercy but christians burned people alive, koran can call to jihad and it can be routinely interpreted as a spiritual struggle, it is all about the culture, people interpret their holy books to say what they currently need. the causes of war with their culture are both political and ideological...

>>8631945
>that was clearly an example to show the retarded nature of assuming someone is going to take the scripture of their religion word for word.
If someone actually believes their religion to be true, why wouldn't they look for the most accurate/plausible reading of the texts?

>religious people look at the context they're living in and alter it to fit in with it
Some do, clearly not all. Just have a look at all the terrorists, the fact that insanely high amounts of muslims even in the western world support the death penalty for apostasy, homosexuality etc.

>o assume that the average religious person living in a particular setting is going to fuck everything up for themselves because of a book is a really retarded idea propagated by morons.
This does happen though.

>religion doesn't do any of that, people do it.
People believing their religion to be true.

>how are there 3 million muslim-americans living without much trouble then? sure you have fucking crazies who blow shit up or preach crazy shit but how many of them are there relative to the majority who just want to live normal lives?
You're right, not many are willing to actually go through with these acts. Many of them probably aren't that religious, they believe it to be true (but don't necessarily know what it entails), they pray etc. But generally they just work and try to fill their life with entertainment. THOUGH, while they may not do it themselves, a scaring amount of them support the ones that do.

>what about WBC protesting at funerals then? don't you realize that shitty people use religion as an excuse to do whatever shitty thing they want to do as opposed to doing shitty things purely because their text tells them to do so?
Yes, the WBC sucks but there you go. They picket funerals whereas terrorists will murder people in large numbers and support the ones who do.


And yes, NOT ALL. But clearly this is happening at a much larger rate with Islam than any other religion, even in the west, even with converts.

>nobody with a decent life and a sound mind is going to fuck it all up because of a book.
Yep, having a shitty life is definitely a factor that plays a role. For your average western atheist, he may turn to drugs and other escapes, a buddhist may move into the mountains and meditate for extended periods of time, but for a muslim, he may become highly religious and look into what the teachings actually entail and radicalize.
>>8632036
I agree with everything you wrote except
>you know, it is not even really that relevant what's written in the holy books,

The people who ACTUALLY believe it to be the word of God and a guide on how to live a moral life and reach paradise etc won't give a shit about "why religion was created". I agree with mostly everything else, except I also believe it holds more power than any ideology.

>>8631810
I thought he claimed that without religion society would be a utopia. Might have been dawkins though