Let's talk about The Iliad. What was your favorite book?

I'm going through it right now and it's super boring, just nonstop action

>>8510719
Not enough navel gazing for your limp wristed, nu-male sensibilities you leftist cuck?

I don't know why I just said that, I'm not even that type of person.

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>>8510712
The ancients were another species

Bye

Book 5 when Diomedes and Athena team up and fight is probably my favorite part.
I'd like to ask a question, what's your favorite stupid thing that happens in the Iliad?
Mine is when Achilles almost drowned in that river like a fucking idiot.

>>8510728

then you were projecting?

>>8510712

I'm on book 11 now. My favorite parts so far have been the "1v1 me fgt" scenes.

>>8510712
Book 6 tends to be the favorite of most people. Diomedes was a boss.

I read it at the beginning of the year for the first time. I don't know about themes at what not, and I wouldn't dare talk abotu this book with any authority, but I will say the violence was brutal. Characters would be introduced, their histories told, and their death would occur all on one page. That must say something about their views on life.

>>8510747
Yes. I think I was.

>>8510712
Who's your favourite secondary or minor character?

Who's your favourite Olympian?

What's your favourite simile or metaphor?

If you ask me, I can't decide about any of the above. There are so many great things in there.

>>8510781
I mean when The river God told Achilles to stop killing people in him and then Achilles freaked out for no reason and fought the river, but was getting fucked so Hera had to ask Hephaestus, a God who was already indebted to Achilles' mother, to help him while Achilles complained about how he was going to drown like an idiot.

It's cool how something written such a long time ago can evoke such strong imagery and emotion in someone today. That's what I enjoyed most about it really.

>>8510744
>what's your favorite stupid thing that happens in the Iliad
When Athena makes Ajax the Lesser fall headfirst into a pile of shit.

>>8510805
My favorite Olympian is Athena. I posted in a thread a while ago about how I pictured her as a qt anime girl in my head without trying.
It was great.

>>8510814
See my response to your original post
>>8510809

>>8510811
what line is that at?

diomedes fights the gods
also the ending

>>8510859
Song 23, 770 something.

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>>8510712
You do believe in the divine inspiration and literal truth of Homer, right?
>>8510820
Like which?

>>8511024
None in particular, just as a small kind of stoic girl with grey eyes. Smaller than the other gods, maybe almost looking too small for her armor and weapons.
qt but also dangerous.
>tfw no anime Iliad with qt girls and JoJo warriors.

Do you all think there are metaphors strewn everywhere underneath all of the fighting and bloodshed and Godliness

>>8511076
No, there's no esoteric, pretentious meaning to Homer- there couldn't be- and that's a huge part of why he's so great.
>>8510805
I don't suppose Helen is a minor character? But as for my favorite Olympian, it'd have to be Zeus.

>>8510811
>When Athena makes Ajax the Lesser fall headfirst into a pile of shit.
I fucking forgot about this, it went into his mouth and everything.

naturalistic similes are the best
it's like there's a seperate world that he's drawing from
all the allusions to hunting, animals, mountains, rivers etc.

>>8510744
>what's your favorite stupid thing that happens in the Iliad?
THE NAMES.

How am I meant to know who these people are if Paris isn't even called Paris half the time.

>>8510820
Athena and Aphrodite act like the standard sulking daughter of the Big Villain, which is not unfitting.
>>8511076
Metaphors? Yes, but only culturally. I don't believe the metaphors would've been something Homer was aware of as he wrote them. I'm mostly thinking of the gods, and what they represent.

As for deeper meaning -- yes, absolutely. Achilleus fighting Hektor has a -- kind of symbolic meaning, in that it's the conflict of two different views. Among other things.

Anyway: what is everyone's favourite translation, and why is it god-like Lattimore?

>>8510735
This is literally the opposite of what reading "the Greeks" is supposed to teach.

The entire point of them as a whole and especially so within some specific works (eg Thucydides' history) is that mankind doesn't change, and has been and always will compelled to act by the same virtues and vices, pleasures and pains. Hesiod warns of gold digging sluts, "ignore the woman who shakes her bottom at you | she only wants your barn," the tragedians of the inability to escape guilt: "and terribly close on his heels | are the Fates that never miss," Herodotus of "inherent human weakness" in the failure of man to foresee what is to be (e.g, Croesus "informed" that if he attacks Persia a great nation will fall), Thucydides of human tendency to overreach (Athenian expedition against Sicily), Plato of misprioritizing our lives (futile and empty idolization of wealth, power), etc.

That's what gives value to the Greeks, and all other long "dead" history and culture we explore. Because it isn't dead at all; it's alive as long as we humans are alive, and we can either learn through our own shitty mistakes, or let ourselves be taught by the past and so avoid pain while still enjoying education. We can explore literally thousands of years of human experience theough countless lives, rather than being limited to only our own experiences, and only at this very moment.

"He who would foresee what is to be must first reflect on what has been."

>>8510744
>what's your favorite stupid thing
How many billions of cows they sacrificed. Greeks just love a good BBQ
>ZEUS! Fuck we're sorry we pissed you off, we're going to eat this 11/10 cow for you now
>"accidentally" makes it too tender
>FUCK we need to make another sacrifice, we all know Zeus loves his meat not perfectly tender doh doh doh

Who's your favourite secondary or minor character?
Nestor & a Greek archer who's name I forgot
Who's your favourite Olympian?
Athena. Apollo was Ares tier of a cunt
What's your favourite simile or metaphor?
People's eyes going black when they get mad.

>>8511168
That's an amazing post

I really like the part where they are doing a race or something at the funeral and Achilles says something like
>the winner shall take home this tripod
>banded with gold and unbreakable, it is worth 13 oxen
>the runner up shall take this woman for prize
>she is beautiful and skilled in weaving, worth 4 oxen
That stool was worth 3X more than a beautiful, skilled woman, lol.

>>8511274
Stool allows easy access to boi pus

Reminder that Diomedes is the best hero in the poem
>beats the shit out of ares
>wounds Aphrodite
>doesn't whine like Achilles

>>8511274
Woman's first prize, mate. A horse is second, the stool is third, but it's placed above two gold bars, which is still nuts.

When reading I'm struck by the parallels between Achilles and Diomedes, and curious as to why the (critical and textual) relationship between the two isn't different. Achilles fights the gods, but it's seen as a bad thing. Diomedes fights the gods, it's something heroic and incredible. Diomedes colludes with Odysseus, but he's not stigmatized for it. Achilles refuses to fight and is vilified. The two even have similar fates, though Diomedes is tormented by the gods rather than outright killed.

>>8511168
You're mostly right, but you were also ridiculously easily baited.

Aristotle in particular is among the most useful, because the main trend is to think that old people were dumb and ignorant motherfuckers. He shows that being an analytical autist is a timeless part of what it means to be human.

In general, however, exploring the experiences of other people is not the point of reading.
>>8511173
>Apollo was Ares tier of a cunt
That's what makes him good, cunt.
>>8511368
Glory 'n shit.

>>8511368
Actually it's the wrestling match and the stool is worth 12 oxen, and the women 4.
Unless our versions differ.

>>8510744
this part or the shield
so fucking cool

>>8510744
>what's your favorite stupid thing that happens in the Iliad?

When the fucking horses start talking and making prophecies. What was he smoking?

>>8511168
Complete nonsense. Read Dodds.

>>8511479
you mean E.R. Dodds? what do you recommend by him

The Iliad and Odyssey exalt the nobility of Honor.

The very first word of the Iliad is “RAGE.” The “RAGE” of Achilles when his honor is violated and his rightful prize and love is taken from him by his very own commander.

Right here we see Man versus State, as Achilles is the superior warrior, and as he takes all the risks, he ought get the reward. That is the Natural Law of Zeus, for after Achilles Natural Rights are violated and Achilles quits, Zeus sees to it that the Greeks begin to lose, as Zeus’s will was done.

Long before Atlas Shrugged in Rand’s cheap novel, Achilles quit the Greek army.

Homer shows that women who honor their commitments, like Penelope, lead to happy endings. Women who disregard their commitments, like Helen, lead to War.

Achilles quits for the sake of Honor, refuses to return when offered millions times more prizes, arguing that once honor is taken away, mere money/prizes cannot buy it back. He also reasons that all the wealth in the world is not worth him losing his life in an arena where his honor was taken away. When offered honors and awards, Achilles states, “I receive my honor from Zeus, not from corrupt Kings."

And too Achilles returns to fight for Honor, so as to avenge the death of his friend Patroculus, knowing full well he will die.

Simply put, Achilles is a man who lives and dies not for mere prizes, nor perks, nor tenure, nor titles, nor money, but for honor, and honor alone.

A few hundred years later, Socrates would invoke Achilles while facing death at his own trial. Socrates was offered perks and prizes and life if he would only recant his teachings that “Virtue does not come from money, but money and every lasting good of man derives form virtue.”

But then Socrates asked, “Would Achilles back down from battle if bribed by physical wealth?” Socrates reasoned he would be dishonoring the Great Achilles if he ever recanted his teachings.

>>8511546
>The Iliad and Odyssey exalt the nobility of Honor.
How is it possible to misread a work this badly.
>The very first word of the Iliad is “RAGE.”
In your translation, perhaps. Not in the original. In the original, the first word is "sing".
>Right here we see Man versus State
What's wrong with you. It's an exploration of what is honourable, what leads to and deserves honour, whether honour is worthwhile, but it isn't something so simple as Man vs. Meanie State.
>Women who disregard their commitments, like Helen, lead to War.
You've managed to reduce Helen, a complicated character exploring the nature of love and justice and will, to a shitty symbol for dishonour. And Homer didn't invent the Trojan War, anyway.
>And too Achilles returns to fight for Honor
You mean, for his dead fuckbuddy.

The whole point -- a whole point, at least -- is that motivation cannot be boiled down to a simple Honour or Wealth (especially not alone). It's about conflict -- it's not the Aeneid, with all its didactic allegory.

Your post is a great example of why we shouldn't tell newfags to just start with the Greeks and expect them to know what they're doing.

>>8511687
You're a fucking tool. Besides Anon's second point, he wasnt saying anything as reductive as you're making it seem. He said the work "exalts the nobility of honour", not that it "only exalts the nobility of honour". Furthermore, you look at his characterization of one character and assume that that's all he's got to say about the character. Geez, the one post on /lit/ that's actual literary criticism and all you do is flame the guy. It's almost like you'd rather shitpost.

>>8511713
>Rage, anon
Of course he was reductive. Claiming the Iliad exalts the nobility of honour approaches dullness, when its main purpose is the critique of the exaltation of honour. Agamemnon is as much a major character as Achilles, and he's not a villain. Why do you think that is?

His characterisation of Helen relies on the assumption that she's a thoughtless symbol. You can't say she's any more without contradicting yourself. Besides, he doesn't say more, and it's a bit silly to talk about things you imagine other people say.

There's nothing wrong with criticising criticism. It honestly just sounds like you agreed with him a bit too much ;^)

>>8511728
>main purpose is the critique of the exaltation of honour
I think you have to much of a modern take on it

Helen is capricious and regrets going with Paris both in the Iliad and the odyssey

I enjoyed the gore passages.

>>8511759
>I think you have to much of a modern take on it
I think you underestimate the ancients.

Helen is conflicted.

>>8511713
Not that anon, but the best response to detailed analysis (by /lit standards) is to flame the shit out of it. I come here for no-holes-barred (no homo) literary combat. Honour Anon has stepped up with his explanation, now let's see who can defeat him & win the stool.

Sing to me muses of the rage of the butt hurt anon.

>>8511759
>>8511768
And I'd guess the expectation that Agamemnon, the tyrant, must be the bad guy -- in the wrong -- is a modern take. Homer is not an anarchist. He is not a Marxist, or anything defying the concept of obedience and aristocracy. He's not writing a political piece.
>>8511770
Pretty much. Anything but memes.

>>8511768
Why do all (most) the greeks love Achilles if they were critical of his motivations?

>>8511783
Because Achilles is more than MUH HONOUR.

Why did all of Greece under Agamemnon invade Troy for one girl? Why did the families of these men support them in doing so, even the women? Was this woman that beautiful? Yes, it is that in part. There is the saying of the woman who launched a thousand ships. But in going after this woman and the cowardly Paris who stole her, the men were going to reclaim society. It was not that the men were horny and all marveled the beauty of this woman. It was that these men upheld their values so much, that they wouldn’t even let this woman, who had beauty blessed by a “goddess” get away with doing something so heinous as breaking a wedding vow and running away with another man to another country.
And we see this again when Achilles refuses to fight. The Achaens had vows that a certain maiden, as a spoil of war would go to Achilles. But King Agamemnon broke this, and thus Achilles refused to bend to his will and retreated to his own tent. This is showing a people who held on to honor, respect, justice, even at the cost of defying the most beautiful woman in the world (and the mischievous deities that supported her) as well as kings. In both cases what was theirs was reclaimed.

>>8511713

You're right, for what it's worth.

>>8511793
>Why did all of Greece under Agamemnon invade Troy for one girl?
Honour and loot.

Also, divine fuckery.
>Was this woman that beautiful?
No. But she was married to the king of Sparta, and they'd all made sacred vows. Also, divine fuckery.

I think you are ignoring the whole of Agamemnon. Priam/Hektor, too. We do not have a Good Guy who does Good Things and who we should copy.

>>8511687
>Not in the original. In the original, the first word is "sing".
In Greek the first word is rage

>>8511821
It's sad it took this far before people noticed.

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I strongly recommend pic related for any that might have overlooked it off that SWTG chart. Great background & context in an accessible retelling.

It does a good job of explaining that the cause for a war would have made sense from an economic & geographic point of view, but also that kings did start wars over family matters such as women.

Just as terrorism & muh Freedom appeal to the modern plebeians as understandable reasons for pillaging a rival, the Hittites & Mycenaeans would understand domestic relations as a rallying call. It's one thing to be cucked, but how much more cucked are you if you King is cucked?

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>>8511687
>In your translation, perhaps. Not in the original. In the original, the first word is "sing".

"The Greek word menin ("wrath" or "rage") is the first word in the epic"

http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/Read_Iliad.htm

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0133

>What's wrong with you. It's an exploration of what is honourable, what leads to and deserves honour, whether honour is worthwhile, but it isn't something so simple as Man vs. Meanie State.

Like another anon has pointed out, the anon you responded to isn't necessarily saying these are all that the Iliad is about. You're simply retarded if you can't see how there is a conflict between man and state in the Iliad with all the examples in it, like the entire character of Hektor performing his duty to the state even though he risks death every time, and is begged by Andromache not to go out to the field anymore. Akhilleus turns his back on the army because he doesn't recognize a duty to the state; he was never there to fight a just war or help his comrades or anything like that, he went to gain honor only after having been found out by Odysseus when he tried to dodge the war (which Odysseus tried to do as well, again, showing a conflict between individuals and duty to state). Tons of ancient greek texts are about man against state, so it's far from ridiculous to think that it can be found in Homer too.

>You've managed to reduce Helen, a complicated character exploring the nature of love and justice and will, to a shitty symbol for dishonour. And Homer didn't invent the Trojan War, anyway.

Again, that anon is not necessarily saying that that's all that she is. She clearly does represent a dishonorable woman when you contrast her with Andromache (and later Penelope in the Odyssey), who is portrayed as a perfect, dutiful wife to Hektor. That anon is correct that Penelope is an example of the honorable woman leading to a happy ending, but this is the exact opposite of how it goes in the Iliad, with Hektor dying and Andromache mourning him, and later with Astyanax being killed, but obviously this is because Homer was wise enough to know that even virtuous people like Hektor and Andromache can suffer much without having a happy ending.

>You mean, for his dead fuckbuddy.

They're not mutually exclusive. There are very obvious reasons why Akhilleus gets so angry after Patroklus dies, and why after killing Hektor he holds games in his honor and mourns for him.

>The whole point -- a whole point, at least -- is that motivation cannot be boiled down to a simple Honour or Wealth (especially not alone).

He didn't say it could only be boiled down to those things, he was only making an observation that Homer exalts the nobility of honor, which he definitely does, among other things.

>>8511825
http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/homer.htm

μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος

μῆνις = wrath/rage

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0133

>>8511810

>We do not have a Good Guy who does Good Things and who we should copy.

Their names are Hector and Diomedes

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>this thread is making me want to read the Ilyad

Don't bestow on me these memes, /lit/.

I've fallen for them many times.

I still get nightmares from the horrid confusion of Ulysses.

>>8511867

Read it, it's an incredible work of literature.

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>>8511869
Okay... Okay... I'll give it a try.

I know enough of greek mythology to skip the basics.

But if this disappoints me, /lit/, you're in trouble.

>>8511876
The Iliad is the basics, you'll be fine. There are tons of threads in the archive.

>>8511869
I'm starting my read. I'm liking it A LOT so far. Just wish there were less nicknames. I want to remember who Achilles is, not who his father was.

Is this a good version?

http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.1.i.html

>>8511876
Just remember that they don't have christian morals and don't let the catalogue of ships put you off.

>>8511905
https://freedownloadlwtheiliad.wordpress.com/
Rieu is better, avoid Fagles as he didn't translate it, Butler is ok.
The epithets are part of the fun.

Ma boy Diomedes wrecking shit up. Yea boooiiii

Hi-diddly-ho O-diddly-ysseus

>>8511928
I'm reading Butler because your version has malware. Am I losing too much?

One thing. Are the books really this short?

I've finished the first book in no time and liked it.

I kind of felt sorry for Achilles, though. I hope Agamenon gets his ass handed to him at some point.

>>8511905

I can't help you in regards to prose translations, but the three standard translations in poetry are Fagles, Lattimore, and Fitzgerald.

>>8512030

The whole book is ~550 pages, broken up into 24 books, so you're looking at about 23 pages per book, so you can get through it pretty quickly.

>>8511168
But how come even after studying them and other historical periods, we keep fucking it up again and again?

And the Greeks really were different people, in a different time and in circumstances than us. Did any slaves write anything down? Did any shit kickers other than Hesiod?

>>8511810
>We do not have a Good Guy who does Good Things and who we should copy
Maybe thats the point. Maybe all humans are assholes and their aren't really any heroes, only virtuous people like several of the old warriors that try and warn Agammnon about being a crazy prick.

y'havta reaD Homer's Odyssey 20=times

>>8512050
I'll be done with this in a few hours, then.

The time wasted on turning pages bedazzles me.

>>8512150
I'm ending Book 2.

>>8511076
There's semblances of that, but there isn't some super deep meaning in every line. That kind of Epic didn't arise until later.

>>8511867
Ulysses is high modernism and is a kind of goofy retelling of the Odyssey anyway.
The Iliad is a massive part of the Western canon, and lacks modern pretenses. You should have read both for Ulysses

>>8510744

when the fucking god of war gets scratched and starts bitching around and telling zeus.

the gods are such beta cucks.

>>8512030
Just go to a secondhand shop and buy one desu, you'll remember it better.

>>8511479
>>8511501
I think he means The Greeks and the Irrational by Dodds

>"Why should we attribute to the ancient Greeks an immunity from 'primitive' modes of thought which we do not find in any society open to our direct observation?"