> Hey anon, what are you reading? > Huh, what's it

Finnegan's Wake does actually have a plot you know, like you can actually explain what is happening to someone who hasn't read the book.
Do you think the book is just random funny words talking about nothing for like 600 pages?

>>8502031
what is the plot

>>8502031
>Finnegan's Wake
>Finnegan's
>gan's
>n's
>'

>>8502034
Simply a man named Finnegan, and his wake.

>>8502050
WASN'T IT THE TRUTH I TOLD YA
LOTS OF FUN AT FINNEGANS WAKE

>>8500215
I always picture Joyce as being an author for People that read stuff for the sake of being seen reading stuff and it seems to be correct

>>8502034


To keep it succinct, it is an allotropic fractal of symbolism that unthrones dualism as an explanatory dogma. Dualistic "aristotelian" modes of explanation require cause and consequence, which seems to work just fine for particular cases, but badly for great questions. Finnegans Wake's great question is "Who is the dreamer?". Whilst the aristotelian causal mode of explanation would require a dualism between dreamer and dream, Finnegans Wake dissolves the question by creating a closed loop of non-hierarchical symbols. To avoid an infinite regress of the question, and avoid the piling up of turtles that aristotelian logic generates when asking the big questions, instead Joyce has produced a work that, just like carbon can exist as diamond and charcoal, so does Finnegan Wake exists in three symbolic modes. Mr. Porter, an innkeeper, is dreaming he is HCE; HCE, the archetype, is dreaming he is Fionn McCumhail; Fionn McCumhail, the source, is dreaming that he is Mr. Porter. As the dream lines intersect and generate each other, the triadic explanation of theology is achieved: there is no dreamer, only dream.

If you understood the above, perhaps you are ready for it.

>>8502102
Is this a pasta? Are you a faggot? Please reply

>>8502074
Youra pretentious retard

>>8502102
Thays not 600 pages.

>>8502110

>Is this a pasta?
No.

>Are you a faggot?
No.

>Please reply
Self-evident.

Have you read the book? If my words already confuse you then I would not recommend it to you.

>>8502122
No it is not. The idea was to give the gist of the plot with less than 600 pages.

I have no idea why do I come to /lit/ anymore.

>>8500215

anyone here cares to explain me this book? what's the appeal i don't get it once I picked it up and it felt like knowing russian but only the cyrillic script, not the words actually

>>8500215


niggur's bumpitty

>>8502102
Did he change his mind about Aristotle being the greatest thinker of all time?

>>8502102
>uses unthrones instead of dethrones
kill me peter

>>8502102
>someone writes a real post
>HURR DURR UR A PSEUD

welcome to /lit/ buddy.

>>8502299


Aristotle was an idiot.

>>8502034
its about a family

>>8500215
>casual filters
you're right, anyone who claims to read or enjoy this book is a casual to the highest degree

>>8502532
>tripfag
>says something stupid

DIDNT SEE THAT COMING

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>>8502039

>>8502034
>>8502102 provides an interesting interpretation of the plot, but not the plot itself.

The book tells the story of HCE, who is accused of an unspecified crime and has to deal with the backlash of said crime as well as the effects of his choices upon himself and his family. His wife, ALP, writes a letter and tries to mitigate the crisis as HCE becomes increasingly impotent to solve his problems. In the midst of this the sons of HCE, Shem and Shaun, get stuck in a power struggle against each other to lead the family. Izzy, the daughter, acts as a bystander, but also the focus of the sexual frustration of the men of the family.

Finnegans Wake starts out with the fall of the legendary Finnegan falling off of a ladder and dying, only to be reborn as HCE. The opening is meant (at least in my opinion) to represent Mr. Porter falling into his sleep and becoming subject to the full force of history. In this sense, Mr. Porter is us. We fall into the story and suddenly become subject to James Joyce’s punishing prose as he unloads all the problems of our civilization upon us.

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>>8502138
i really liked the description and now want to read it more than ever. I just think i need to read Ullysses first

>>8502074
Why do you think we hold Joyce to such high regard here on /lit/?

>>8502102
>>8502573
Good posts, please stick around

is joyce just a fucking perv who masturbates to his own words?

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>>8502657
why would you do that to yourself

>>8502102
so basically David Lynch: The Book ;^)

>>8502505
Not an idiot but not a very interesting or consistent philosopher imo but that's beside the point, I was hoping for a proper answer as to when or why Joyce would have shifted from considering Aristotle as the greatest to creating a work that " unthrones dualism as an explanatory dogma".

>>8503404
Everyone is.

>>8502102
Very well-written, man. One of the best posts I've seen on /lit/ in a while. Thanks for doing your part in bettering the board; I appreciate it. It brings me back to a few years back when discussion on here was actually good.

>reading in search of lost time
Hey anon, what's your book about?
I dunno, some guy rambling for 4000 pages.

...

And memory, I guess

Oh, cool!

The military is fun if you're ok with being surrounded by people who wouldn't touch a book with a ten foot pole

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> Hey anon, what's that book your reading?
Note: the person asking this question is following the Old Law.

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>>8502102
>unthrones dualism as an explanatory dogma

>>8503529
Why wouldn't you participate in discussion?

>>8503588
Because it's 5 AM where I am and I'm just perusing the board to laugh at the occasional shitpost. That definitely was a pleasant surprise, though. I give my insight when I can, but right now is a peak time for me to make a fool of myself.

>>8502573
"The full force of history" this is what is most important about this book to me. We get the entirety of human history (and future, if we repeat) through a series of symbols. The most prevalent being the fall. All told through Irish means. I won't pretend to know too much more than that, but I've always wondered if the book was a series of falls that were meant to reflect the course of humanity.

We have the fall of Adam and Eve at the start, Mr. Porter falling into sleep, HCE falling into his own problems and being pushed down (or planned to be pushed down) by Shem and Shaun.

I do believe the book contains, if not the history, at least the whole of human nature as it stood for Joyce. Falls, fevers, and drinking.

But I'm just riding on your posts coat tails and not adding too much

>>8502050
Simply a men called Finnegan all waking up

Yeah, I actually read the whole thing because I had to. I was entering a prestigious PhD program and focusing on Joyce because I loved Dubliners, Portrait, and Ulysses. To my shame, though, I'd never read the Wake. I'd never even tried, as hard as that was to admit. It was this huge blind spot and area of vulnerability for me. Whenever it'd come up with my colleagues I'd just smile and nod, smile and nod, hoping they wouldn't ask me anything specific about it. "The musicality of it," somebody would say, and I'd say, "Oh God, yes, it's like Beethoven." Finally, though, I had to dive into it, and let me tell you it was tough going. Joseph Campbell's guide helped a lot. Reading it out loud helped. I listened to other people read it, read online commentaries. Eventually it started to make some sort of sense. It was like I was learning to read for the first time again, and in a way this was enjoyable. I got better at reading the book. Soon I was reading entire paragraphs without trouble, getting the puns, laughing at the jokes. I could sort of follow the story, it was like a blurry picture resolving into clarity, or like I was drunk and I was sobering up, I could actually understand it. As I became more and more adept at reading the Wake, I began putting myself to the test, initiating conversations with my colleagues about it, but specific passages this time, specific parts of the book. You can probably guess what happened. After a number of these conversations it became blindingly obvious that I understood the book a lot better than they did, they who I thought were the experts. It eventually became sort of embarrassing for them and I stopped trying to talk about it. And at the end of the day I would pack my things, catch the bus home, and settle into my apartment to read the Wake. It had surpassed all of Joyce's other works in my estimation. Ulysses, the book months earlier I would've named as my favorite of all time, the best book ever written, was now #2 to the Wake. So majestic, so ambitious, so wide-ranging, erudite, glorious, incredible was it that I couldn't believe that it was the work of one man. Best of all, the heart of it isn't complicated at all. What did I get from the Wake, what are its lessons? First of all, be yourself. Second of all, put one foot in front of the other. And lastly, just do it for crying out loud, time's a wastin'!

murder in the rue morgue

Don't judge me.

>>8503406
Idk it sounds like a interesting concept. I know there is almost no chance that i finish but why not?

>>8502102

>serious question, not shitposting.

What is the divide between 'particular cases' and 'great questions'? You say 'who is the dreamer?' is a great question, but it seems pretty particular to me. Who is this dreamer not what is a dreamer?

Also dualism seems like a weird way to describe Aristotelian causality. He defines a cause as the reduction from potentiality to actuality--i.e., it's not that a cause triad of object/cause/new object. It's a change in the underlying formal structure of potentiality which alters the substance of a thing. The triad above is just an abstract way of representing that change, helpful for shorthand or didactic purposes, but inaccurate if taken literally.

So for the questions, who is the dreamer, what is dream, an adequate Aristotelian answer could be: The dreamer is the material cause of the dream, the formal cause is the formal structure of the dream itself, the efficient cause is the movement of will and affections of the dreamer himself, and well as the external agents and sensations that act upon him, and the final cause--well, I'm less sure about the teleology of dreams. Perhaps Aristotle would give a biological answer of some sort.

>>8504228
Try to ignore typos :/ Also when I say the dreamer is the material cause of the dream I'm referring to the motions of his soul which give rise to the images in the dream.

Infinite Jest, I love Wallace's little observations on people's mannerisms and habits so far going into great lengthy detail to describe them entirely. I also rarely have my stomach churned reading something but the stuff with Madam Psychosis and the Saudi Arab king finding the dead body both left a bad taste in my mouth after reading.

>>8504234
Also a further question: Where do you get this interpretation of Wake? Another person mentioned that Joyce has a high regard for Aristotle. What changed? Do you have any quotes from Joyce about this?

>>8503599
>book contains, if not the history, at least the whole of human nature as it stood for Joyce. Falls, fevers, and drinking.

Fall into what, or out of what? I don't understand this symbol that, as you say, stands for the whole of human nature (next to fever and drinking). I haven't read the Bible though, so this failure to understand probably stems from ignorance and is entirely my own.

>>8502062
WACK FOL DE RA AND DANCE TO YOUR PARTNER
ROUND THE FLOOR YOUR TROTTERS SHAKE

>>8504341
You don't understand The Fall?
https://youtu.be/0HWT6XD014I

>>8504397
Actually this version is better
https://youtu.be/39oO7zKStvU
But anyway the fall is every fall, Adam and Eve's fall out of paradise is Tim falling off the wall is Humpty Dumpty is the Roman empire is Jesus on the Cross is you falling out of bed this morning.

>>8502138
>my words

You didn't write that, you stole it.

>>8504242
It sounds a lot like the one from skeleton key. It's not the only interpretation for sure, tho I think you really have to regard it as an attempt at a history of the world.

>>8503404
No, he masturbates to the thought of Nora's arse full of farts

>>8504341
I think all human stories can be understood in falling. Plots rise and fall, adam and eve fell, HCE/Porter/Finnegan all fall.

All significant stories start or end with a fall (most at least). Whether from grace or to grace then from or a steady drop down.

We are constantly falling through gravity, even the planet is falling.

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Bought this today. Wish me luck, lads. I'm going in

>>8504834
<3

To anyone who has read the wake before. I own Joseph Campbell's skeleton key to Finnegan's wake. Would that be enough of a guide or should I also buy >>8504834 pic?

>>8505153
Inb4 comma

>>8500215
What's funny about this is that the normies go wild for Finnegans Wake. If they ask this, just say, "Well, it's probably better if I show you", then watch the amused confusion on their faces until they look back up at you, waiting for answers, and you say, "Isn't he a crazy guy that Jimmy Joyce, so quirky!!", then you have a knee-slappingly good time trying to pronounce the first thunder-word ("baba... wait, ba-ba-ba-dal... gharak...gharak?... oh anon, what a quirky book you're reading!") doubled over with laughter and having a grand old time with your new friend.

>>8502050
that would be true if the book was named Finnegan's wake not Finnegans wake. Can any potato irish fago explain to us what really is a finnegan?

>>8505202
I've literally done this several times.

>>8504237
>only read first line of OPs post
Narcissist couldn't wait to find out this is a FW thread

>>8505157
It's an apostrophe you fuck

>>8505368
Woopsie

>>8502074
No, that's totally Wallace

>>8504242
y'havta reaD Joyce's Ulysses 20=times

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>>8500215
The book is meant to be experienced, not summarized and simplified and encapsulated in a bubble of shit.

A huge part of the reward is the plot you create through your interaction with the book.

I badly need to read it again. The Nightlessons chapter alone tops most novels.

Seriously, reading it though fucked with my head. It was like reading 100s of novels at once. You need to set aside the time. It is so worth it.

>>8502102
Saved

>>8502102

Agree that the dissolution of dualism and the rendering meaningless of hierarchies of symbols is one achievement within the Wake, but that's just a condition the book creates, not a conclusion the text proves.

Focusing on one triad of characters as 'the dreamers' is an oversimplification. HCE starts the dream, afterwards all the characters are independently participating in and shaping the dreamworld, and he technically is vanished for most of the text anyways. Porter/HCE is like the novel's link or entryway from Dublin into a dream dimension shared by multiple consciounesses. who is the dreamer is not the book's great question. I think some of the riddles from I.6, like 'when is a man not a man,' have greater significance through the chapters, the stories within them, the historical events retold ...but dozens of these riddles appear and disappear through the book.

>>8504685
The fall is you falling out of your mother's vagina and into self-sustaining life, departing from a state where your life was sustained for you

That is the origin of all falling myths. *dusts hands*

>The cords of all link back, strandentwining cable of all flesh. That is why mystic monks. Will you be as gods? Gaze in your omphalos. Hello. Kinch here. Put me on to Edenville. Aleph, alpha: nought, nought, one.

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>>8502102
>avoid the piling up of turtles. you're just stringing together nonsense words.

>>8502102
Well written, I guess, unfortunately entirely unrelated to Finnegans. I see you feel free to hallucinate whatever interpretation you want, so you might as well do it here to avoid wasting paper. But I don't recommend you go about writing this anywhere else with serious intent. While you might not be harming trees, you can still provoke ecological harm to public intellectuality.

Any Joycean can appreciate the hilarity of a Shaun's misinterpretations being lauded, yes. But please do stop

>>8506199
Perhaps he will stop once you convince him how he is wrong? Or would you prefer long winded shitposts?

>>8506164
Google 'turtles all the way down' ya dip.

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>>8506380
Shaun's is a longer winded shitpost, which is why I replied the way I did. I do not know entirely the measure to which he is serious, though. I imagine it lies somewhere within "not much."

The point is he doesn't even have >a< thesis. He writes a lengthy paragraph with all the rhetorical construction of a single consecutive train of thought, which in fact turns out to be a pastiche of inconsequent contrasting ideas that distract and add up to the two only possible responses on the reader's part: "well if you say so" and "I don't think so."

It is typical today that any lengthy paragraph, by being intrinsically lineal in display can fool a person into believing a whole bunch of miscellaneous ideas must be automatically connected.

It is a common mistake in the western literary (abcedminded) wit, which is why Joyce writes one has to go west in quest for Humpty's tumptytumtoes. Only the westerner philosophy feels the compulsion to put "Humpty" back together in a convincing, continuous analysis. But to the extent to which with all the glue you can find you still never will manage to recollect his pre-fall organic wholeness, you might as well just not bother.

But I digress. An example of your, I mean his most blatantly pseudo-academockally farsetious claim:

>the triadic explanation of theology is achieved: there is no dreamer, only dream.

Written as if one follows from the other, or as if any of those makes sense. At worse, trying to suggest Joyce smoked weed and listened to Alan Watts' speeches.

Also, >>8502102's sloppy writing makes one assume Joyce's agenda was to fight 'aristotelian' thought all along.

He also then mentions a dualism between cause-effect, and links it to dreamer-dream.

As a response to >>8502034 he might as well have simply even cited Finnegans Wake itself:

>a commodius vicus of recirculation

which at once reveals (1) the influence from Vico's "The New Science" (which is explored in Beckett's essay on Joyce's FW: "Dante... Bruno. Vico.. Joyce") and (2) its circular plot.

>>8505153
buy the one in pic as well, highly recc.

>>8506506
Hey here's a thought: you might be able to relax if you get the sand out of your vagina

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>>8500215 >>8502031 >>8502039

I had the Society of the Spectacle at work today just because I felt that it was obscure enough that I could get away with it at work without any awkward conversations. Maybe I'll take Finnegans Wake into the break room sometime for more effective trolling.

>the brand of beer

>also does not have the apostrophe in its name, logo, brand, etc

>absolutely fucking based beer

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>>8506537
I'm sorry. Sometimes I find myself caring about literature and critical thought. I forget to participate in the acritical group slapstick weary attitude of perpetual half-selfsatirical sophistry. Aah the relaxation of mental rutting. thx anon

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>>8500215

Also people seem to actually be having a civil, substantive conversation about the actual book ITT so I'll just leave this here (again).

>>8506555
Ye glorious trips, ever had the chance to read Eric's book? If so what did you think

DID YOU KNOW: that the subatomic particles known as quarks were named for the word occuring in the Wake?

Gell-Mann even gives an, there's just no other way to put it, touching and thoughtful explanation for the choice of name, here. This man of science appreciates that Joyce is bending words every which-way in the course of doing his art, and so he takes license to do the same. Even the three is significant, something which had escaped me until I thought to write this post: protons and neutrons are each composed of three quarks per particle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark#Etymology

>>8506573

Nah, I just have a copy of Mcluhan's War and Peace in teh Global Village, which is as of yet unread.

Actually that might be good break room fodder next, I've had the damn thing for years.

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get on my level faggots

>>8507600
Your level is pretentious/10

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>>8507600
That probably goes well with your muted horn tattoo, ya drip.

>>8502573
>provides an interesting interpretation of the plot, but not the plot itself.

this