Name one single atheist writer who didn't end up embracing

me

because i'm killing myself tomorrow

CS Lewis

>>8485534
the accusations of a death bed confession is an embarassment to christianity, showing it's real, base nature

>>8485555
kek

>>8485534
What's that supposed to even mean?

Hitchens

Schopenhauer

>>8485630
Reminder that Hitchens' throat cancer was probably punishment from God. Not all cancer is, but that one probably was.

>>8485634
Or it could be the fact he smoked like a chimney his entire fucking life

>>8485634
If god intervenes in petty shit like that, then how come little Christian kids still get raped and murdered?

>>8485634

Where was God when Mao and Stalin killed millions in the name of atheism?

>>8485638
God is edgy af. Have you even read the old testament?

>>8485638
Blasphemy is incredibly serious, Anon, it's not petty at all. It used to be one of the worst things you could do. Perhaps God still sees it that way.

>>8485552
Are you fucking dumb?

>>8485638
Probably had evil in their heart.

>>8485534
Douglas adams.

>>8485634

I laughed

>>8485534
Karl Marx

>>8485534
Christopher Hitchens

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>>8485644
>in the name of atheism

*citation needed*

god's gay fite me

>>8485605
Not OP, but its supposed to mean that almost noone dies in the adult age or older being an atheist.

Karl Marx, Arthur C. Clarke, Bertrand Russell, Primo Levi, Virginia Woolf, Kurt Vonnegut, Robert Louis Stevenson, Gore Vidal, William Morris, George Bernard Shaw, Maurice Sendak, José Saramago, Ayn Rand, Kingsley Amis, Antonin Artuad, Issac Asimov, J.G. Ballard, Wilfred Scawen Blunt, Bertolt Brecht, Marcel Proust, Terry Prachett, Harold Pinter, Iris Murdoch, Arthur Miller, W. Somerset Maugham, H.P. Lovecraft, Jack London, Ursula K. LeGuin, Philip Larkin, Franz Kafka, Henrik Ibsen, Joseph Conrad, Douglas Adams, Robert Graves, Anton Chekov, Germaine Greer, Italo Calvino, Charles Bukowski, Albert Camus, John Fowles, E. M. Forrester, Andre Breton, George Eliot, Marquis de Sade, James Baldwin.

Is that enough for your deluded holy ass, OP?

>>8486306
I like it how half of those are boring mediocrities.

Voltaire.

>>8486316
Yeah, yeah, and the other half are fucking gods. The dare was just to name an unrepentant atheist writer. I named dozens of canonical ones.

>>8486258
Gadly. Bastard didn't deserve the the gift of faith.

Nietzsche

>>8486362
nope

>>8486449
>taking anything he said after his collapse seriously
its just bantz

>>8486449
>>8486461
Nietzsche embraced Christianity after his collapse?

>>8486496
it was just a prank, bro!

>>8485534
Nietzsche.
>inb4 Nietzsche wasn't a writer
Well he sure as hell wasn't a philosopher.

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>Jesus was actually the very first atheist
>in his final moments, he finally realized the ultimate truth, which is that God doesn't exist
>hfw

>>8486306
Conrad is the only good writer on there and he was delivered last rites

>>8486720
>only

>>8485534
kant

>>8486706
This 2bh

>>8486306
I really hate to pile on here--especially as a theist, my position is biased, I'm sure you could make a list of facile religious authors, etc--but this list has maybe 6 great writers on it. Cmon, I'm sure you can find better.

On a side note, does anyone know that image with theist writers on one side and atheists on the other? I remember it having a more even showing.

>>8486756
Kant was an observant Lutheran

>>8485534
Shakespeare, Descartes, Kierkegaard... the list goes on.

>>8486835
A secret Catholic, a Catholic, and a Lutheran

>>8486839
>a conspiracy theory, a convenient lie, and illiteracy

>>8485630

Schopenhauer was not a materialist. He could be classified as a radical Gnostic, i.e. the world is a terrorium made by the Demiurge.

Also, Hitchens' Atheism was mostly a day job. Kinda like Silverstein's Dice Clay persona.

>>8486835
>>8486847
Genuinely interested. How do you know that Shakespeare was an atheist? From what I can find Shakespeare was "a conforming member of the established Anglican Church" while some people speculate that he was actually a secret Catholic or an atheist. How are you so certain that Shakespeare was an atheist?

>>8486873
>How
Having experienced King Lear's depiction of a godless world is how enough. Meanwhile, there is little that could argue towards the other direction in his own work.

>>8486898
I've never read King Lear, but I'll get right on it. I wonder why you think Shakespeare's ability to depict a godless world necessitates him being an atheist though.

>>8485534
Voltaire

>>8485555
hello Chris, how's hell?

>>8486847
how can you say that kierkegaard was athiest

>>8486898
I don't think King Lear indicates that Shakespeare was an atheist. Besides, the point isn't to prove whether or not he was a true believer, just whether or he accepted some form of theism.

>>8486949
It doesn't, but the fact that he was willing to paint a godless world without blinking (that is: without exploiting the potential to suggest it is different from ours) is the weightiest and most thematically integrated of the many hints of atheism - hints which, note, he does not relegate to his vilain's and wailing victim's lines - in a time when it had barely begun to creep into a notion people were enough conscious of to villify. Now the fact that this man, not little learned, who had a concern for intense emotion beyond the ease of his skill and the needs of drama, who sought to etch man's face in front of Nature, of the abstract, far beyond the habits of literary convention, the fact that this man had a remarkable lack of interest in portraying any sort of transcendental religious experience - this speaks very heavily against his having been any genuine sort of theist, and doubly so a Catholic.

>>8486306
>Henrik Ibsen
ouch

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Instead of pleading to god, this guy (absolute madman) did psychedelic drugs on his deathbed, basically making his death an experiment on the fleeting moments of consciousness and also basically making whatever trip you go through as you die 100 times more intense.

I am not sure if he was Atheist or Agnostic though.

>using other people's achievements to make yourself feel justified in your belief/lack of belief in a magic man in the sky

Seriously consider suicide

>>8487340
so a coward druggie

>>8486782
>>8486720
Do you drooling pompous children really think I'm going to waste my fucking time trying to find "better" examples than that fucking list? You're out of your tiny little minds if you think there's only a half-dozen great writers named there. OP's bullshit assertion boils down to "Gosh, in the Western literature tradition, when most people were religious, most writers were too." Go read a book, kids.

>>8486344
>Being mad about the guy that wanted to abolish what basically was slavery

>>8486496

I've never heard it before, but I woudln't be *totally* shocked. The guy had some supreme neurosyphilis at the end and was certifiably insane. Can't really blame him for weird shit he might have said.

>>8487395

Psychedelics aren't really for cowards breh.

>>8487720
>The force of mind is only as great as its expression; its depth only as deep as its power to expand and lose itself when spending and giving out its substance. Moreover, when this unreflective emotional knowledge makes a pretense of having immersed its own very self in the depths of the absolute Being, and of philosophizing in all holiness and truth, it hides from itself the fact that instead of devotion to God, it rather, by this contempt for all measurable precision and definiteness, simply attests in its own case the fortuitous character of its content, and in the other endows God with its own caprice. When such minds commit themselves to the unrestrained ferment of sheer emotion, they think that, by putting a veil over self-consciousness, and surrendering all understanding, they are thus God’s beloved ones to whom He gives His wisdom in sleep. This is the reason, too, that in point of fact, what they do conceive and bring forth in sleep is dreams.

>>8487395
Sheltered: The Post

>>8487751
i like drugs, i just find it funny that people brag about dying the easy way

>>8486847
>Kierkegaard
>atheist
how retarded are you anon?

>>8487763
What you just said is ridiculous.

It comes from the recognition that there must be something beyond what we experience (the universe). Which has been suggested to exist by science (the multiverse/the incoherent, unknowable quantum soup from which universes like ours emerge). But this does not mean we are the outcome of an ordered decision by something similarly ordered. It could just as well be the outcome of random chance and infinite possibility that it affords. There are likely as many (if not infinite) universes that do not possess the principles that allow sentient beings, like us, to exist. Such a scenario does not require a creator, but is the next best, most plausible thing.

>>8487781
it is not

There is so much samefagging in this thread it's unreal. Is that you God, have you used your omnipresence to shitpost on 4chan?

>>8486316
>I see that you provided examples but I still wanna be right so I'm gonna shit on all of them.

>>8487651
>implying it isn't still slavery

Good worker.

me tbqh

>>8487340
>I am not sure if he was Atheist or Agnostic though.

Are you fucking dense, or have you just never read Huxley. He was neither. He wrote The Perennial Philosophy which came to be a cornerstone in modern Perennialism.

>>8485534
Martin Luther.

>>8486306
Ayn Rand was an athiest?

>>8485665
God is gay

>>8487918
she worshipped money

Kerouac

>>8486978
>death not being the end of Chris Hitchens commenting on every fucking thing like a twat
We should know, we're clearly in hell right now.

>>8488714
He was never an atheist, just a bad writer

>>8487948
rekt

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>>8486263

>>8488888
checkèd

>>8488888
>kwints
chek'd n rek'd

Atheism is a symptom of autism

>>8486328
>>8486782
The challenge was to find one. He found six. Eat shit OP

>>8488932
Religiosity causes suicide murder.

>>8488961
Only certain ones, other ones condemn it. Plenty of non religious ideologies like bushido have also promoted suicide

>>8488983
The only secular group that has used suicide murder as a tactic was the Tamil Tigers.

Every single other case of it is caused by religion; specifically religions that have doctrines of martyrdom.

>>8488988
Individual lunatics go on murder sprees then off themselves often, its really not a religious thing. Even if it were thats not an argument against the religions that condemn suicide. You dont stop eating lettuce because potatoes are too starchy

>>8488961
Islam does, Christianity doesn't

>>8489009
>Individual lunatics go on murder sprees then off themselves often

Sure. Which is why it's interesting that so many people find religions that literally inculcate that same lunacy in their followers "good".

>>8489012
>Islam does, Christianity doesn't

Islam and Christianity are both religions that repudiate suicide. But that doesn't mean that they will not rationalize dying in the service of the religion by killing innocent people as righteous behavior.

>>8487144
Is this a quote or did you make this up? Pretty good post.

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>>8488888
chekt

>>8488961
>suicide murder
?

>>8486898
The depiction of a godless world is hardly indicative of his atheism. In fact, the interpretation is often that it's a cautionary tale against godlessness.

>>8487575
I'm sure, friend, that your time is valuable--evidently valuable enough to pour invective upon us children.

In any case, I'm not really interested in defending op's position: I disagree with it entirely. Plenty of good writers--some of my favorites--are atheists.

If anything, it just embarrasses me to see so honorable a debate conducted at such a low level. I'm just trying to help out by asking if you--or anyone, as I think I said in my original post--knows of a list I've seen that proves your point better. Perhaps if you think your list is so momentous you could name the writers you consider great on it. To be clear the only 6 I see that are great are Virginia Woolf, Iris Murdoch, Conrad, Proust, Ibsen, and Chekhov--I notice Kafka too now, so that bumps you up to 7. I've never read Eliot, but people say she's great, so maybe 8 then. Camus I suppose has his moments, and I've enjoyed Calvino from time to time. As well, there's a couple I've never heard of. I probably should 'read a book,' as you say.

>>8490149
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attack

>>8485638
The Church thrives under persecution.

>>8486706
"Why have you forsaken me" isn't him actually meaning that. Back then, the psalms weren't numbered, so they said the first line of the psalm so everyone knew what they were referring to. The psalm that Jesus is referencing here is psalm 22 which is literally makes refernce to being nailed and his garments being divided. He was warning the pharisees one last time of what they were doing.

>>8490199
>Theological flap doodle

>>8485534
atheism is fucking pathetic because it acknowledges theism, being against it gives it credibility. look at how many atheist homosexuals there are. it's a fucking pattern. being a devout christian from birth, renouncing it around late teens, become a homosexual. stephen fry and derren brown are great examples. i don't give a shit if someone's gay but i believe that theism never really goes away, it all stems from a belief of what's "good" and a complete denial that we are essentially animals and we can't be perfect. being gay is a way to be "perfect" because you don't break a girls heart and you don't have to take part in male power games under the guise of being "good" when in reality you're just not a man.
being agnostic is the road to go down.

>>8490176
I can't say ever saw anything atheistical about Chekhov.

>>8490220
Almostalasdairmacintyre.jpg

>>8490220
>atheism is fucking pathetic because it acknowledges theism

No, it rejects theism.

>>8486306
Kafka wasn't an Atheist.

>>8486834
I see you never actually read anything by or about Kant. He was something between a deist and an agnostic.

Jesus

I know that in the west atheism seems like a rejection of societal conventions and the way they've been brought up, but here in post-soviet countries there are generations of people for whom God is childish idea silly people believe in. For those people converting on death bed makes as much sense as for you becoming an Australian aboriginal shaman right before you die.

Spinoza

>>8490260
ths is actually true, but he wasn´t a writer

Religion can be positive or negative depending. It's very individualistic, relating to personal contexts and experiences. Of shaping one for the better. I hate to make a comparison, but it is similar to good works of fiction in this sense. It effects others differently. Death of the Author as an idea has one of its best examples in religion.

Its why it starts to become negative organized and outside of its individual growth narrative. Once something stops becoming about coming of age and starts being enforced as this person's particular coming of age, it starts to twist what is and is not the personal context of growth, causing people to inevitably use it for ideological and political influence. What better way to control a population culturally than through its growth?

What I want to know isn't how many atheists have died believing religion, but how many religious people have died atheists hoping that the specific context they were given doesn't come true. Because of the extremes when it comes to personal manipulation, onto death this would all reflect.

>>8490242
Interpretations of Kant and Kant throughout his life can be read differently.
Sure, the deist/agnostic interpretation is the most common, but some also read him as a Lutheran. Especially since for protestantism in general faith is completely unrelated to reason.

>>8490234
no it acknowledges the belief. militant atheists almost always were militant theists at one point or another. they tend to replace it with something else.

accepting the uncertainty (of which you can be certain of) via agnosticism is one way to prevent those beliefs from getting involved in your life.

>>8490452
>agnosticism
come on don't be that naive, agnosticism is the most useless position of them all, it's usually either believers or atheists covered under a layer of protection to avoid having to support their beliefs

it's just for weak people that like to live under 300 layers of cynicism because they are afraid if they show what's below they will be munched alive by the world

>>8490760
nah. you, like many other atheists are just uncomfortable with uncertainty. then funnily enough with the same fervor and devotion you used to approach god with you now approach science with. scientific dogmatists are no different from evangelical preachers.

>support their beliefs
i'd love to hear you support your beliefs.

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Aziz Nesin
Nihal Atsız
Sabahattin Ali
(probably) Attila İlhan
Kemal Tahir
Nazım Hikmet


these are all guys from a %90 muslim country btw

>>8488793
Hitchens' hell would be a computer that only displays angelic and demonic /lit/ (both in agreement about the existence of God) with a mouse but no keyboard.

>>8490212
>historical/cultural notes

>>8485837
Are you?

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If u disagre with the Bible you look like this guy LOL.

>>8486263
>>8488888
Haha, get fucked you illiterate loser.

>>8489026
>Christianity
>Repudiate suicide

10/10 bait

>>8491096

Athiests wear misfitting suits?

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>>8490176
Invective aside, this debate isn't "honourable," it's absurd. OP made an idiotic claim designed to inflame, and the thread has degenerated into the usual "atheists suck" crap, with a bit of "so and so wasn't great!" The "greatness" of these authors in the eyes of 4chan users is irrelevant to the supposed topic, and just silly in any case. If Shaw, Ibsen, Calvino, and Camus don't make some random stranger's list of great writers, I don't need to hear about it. But that's what I get for wasting time on a board where threads about how Shakespeare and Joyce sucked are daily events.

>>8488888
checked and kekked

>>8486720
>Shaw, Proust, Maugham, Kafka, Ibsen, Chekhov, Eliot
>not great

Ok, pal.

>>8490176
Have you not read any Shaw or Maugham, either? They are as or more deserving of the title "great" than anyone you named from anon's list.

>>8485534
Do you guys ever wonder whether or not people like Kierkegaard or Dostoyevsky would still be Christians if they were alive today? What would they think about modern society?

>>8492158
Dostoevsky is not that old and not much has changed since then, its mostly gotten worse.

>>8487805
He was on his death bed, dying. So he decided to use his last moments to try something out.

>>8492049

No, they're both a shit.

>>8490760
>he thinks agnosticism is a middle point between theism and atheism

>>8488888
People still tend to be retarded about this. Atheism unlike any religion, has no rules, no dogma, no doctrine. You can be a regular and even benevolent atheist like Bill Gates, a liberal pain in the ass like Hitch, an intellectual like Russell, a money worshipping jew like Rand or a fucking dictator like Stalin or Mao.

Idiot.

>>8486706
Zizek pls go

>>8492439
atheism is infinitely retarded because it's an entire movement built upon not believing in something, how fucking stupid is that?

it's also fucking hilarious when they have debates with religious ministers like that's going to achieve fucking shit, you just have the atheist choir boys who want to get fucked in the butt by hitchens cheering him on while he points out what they already think in his droney alcoholic timbre.

Joyce desu

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>>8485534
Spinoza tbfh

Theists btfo

>>8492600
>atheism is infinitely retarded because it's an entire movement built upon not believing in something
This is wrong.

Atheism is not a movement nor a religion.

Atheism is simply a belief that ~P; "~P" representing a proposition that expresses the negation of the existence of God. If you don't believe it, you're not an atheist but an agnostic. This newly coined view that atheists "neither believe nor disbelieve" in the existence of God is a bunch of baloney. If some atheist argues that there are no reasons to believe in God AND doesn't commit to the belief that God doesn't exist (naturally, his arguments should support such a belief), then he is either pretty confused or just a dense contrarian.

>>8486306
>Name one single atheist writer who didn't end up embracing at least a grudging, tentative theism before he died.

read better

This is probably the worst thread on /lit/ right now.

>>8492014
Well, I agree our current debate is pretty absurd. But I meant the overall question concerning whether or not there is an essential relation between belief (in this case religious belief) and artistic skill. Do you think that debate is a good one to have?

Also, the atheists suck crowd are certainly regrettable, but it's not like the theists are children chorus is much better.

As for particular authors--I'm willing to debate the worth of people like Camus or Calvino. Haven't read Shaw (nor noticed him on the original list; my fault), so I can't comment on him, and I said that Ibsen was a pretty great writer.

My main point, is that any list of 'great' atheist thinkers that doesn't include Lucretius, Hume, or Nietzsche is a fairly poor showing.

>>8492439
Presumably it would be against the rules to be an atheist and believe in God.

>>8493198
oh weit

>>8485534
Hitchens

>>8493200
>the atheists suck crowd are certainly regrettable
The hypotheses for the (non-)existence of God should be evaluated on the basis of their supporting arguments, and not what kind of people latch onto them. This includes Dawkins and Plantinga, or your average angst-ridden or science-loathing 14-year-old. Instead, most verbiage concerning this theme is centred around particular figures, history, and politics. All three are besides the point because the matter is inherently philosophical, involving metaphysics and logic as it always has been.

>>8486306
>Anonymous

Isaac Asimov kek

>>8486306
Let's filter the list now, to contain actual good writers
>Stevenson
>Shaw
>Proust
>London
>Kafka
>Chekhov
>Calvino

>>8493171
If you have the patience to make up bullshit reasons why that description doesn't apply to a single author I listed, knock yourself out.

>>8493303
Your pleb is showing

>>8493303
Do you brain-dead kids ever get a moment of clarity where you suddenly think "Holy fuck, who am I to pretend I know which of these writers were great, when I haven't even fucking read a word by half of them?" or does your massive flatulent ego just silence all voices of reason?

>>8493303

>woolfe
>breton
>not "actual good writers"

come on man now youre just being edgy for the sake of it

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>>8493200
Fair enough. I stuck to playwrights and novelists, so many great writers were not included (and my list was just a handful of well-known names, not comprehensive). But having someone sneer that only ONE author on that list was great (Conrad) was so pathetic it almost made me leechblock this site again out of sheer disgust with myself for being here, something I do now and then (most recently for six months).
As far as there being "an essential relation between belief (in this case religious belief) and artistic skill," (since you're somehow still being polite to me), I reject it, partly because of the list I started, and partly because the simple "most people were/are religious, so most authors will be too" certainly covers most of the theist imbalance for me. If we did a study, we would also find most large-breasted women to be religious, but correlation doesn't prove causation. However, artists do need inspiration, and matters of faith are one of the great sources of creative passion: I'm not trying to deny that. I love me a great Gothic cathedral. I just see plenty of proof that the relationship is not essential nor irreplaceable or unique--faith is a muse for many, but not for all.

>>8487805
Stubborn retard

>>8493565
I can sympathize with blocking this site--tends to be bad for good discussions. I just trawl it occasionally for recommendations.

I would probably tend to side with you that there's no essential link between artistic skill and religious belief. Especially if we consider art from a formalist perspective, a good poet or painter is going to create well-constructed works regardless of their religious beliefs.

*But* also if we want essential insights of some sort in art--into human nature of what have you--I, as a theist, will tend towards thinking theist writers are better, because, all things being equal, they more accurately portray the human condition or some such thing. I'd assume as an atheist you'd disagree, and say that atheist writers are being more accurate, and you'd be totally consistent to think that. Flannery O'Connor for me is great not just because she has vivid characters, well-executed prose, and interesting plots, but also because she expresses in narrative of the world I believe to be true. Conrad is great because of all the same formal qualities but my appreciation of his greatness is always in spite of the fact that I'm fundamentally at odds with many of his core assumptions about the world. Maybe for you it's something of the reverse?

>>8493743
Hopefully you can ignore the few grammar mistakes :/ typing on phone

>>8493743
For me, I'd say it depends where the novel's focus lies (sticking again with literature: religious philosophy and apologists are another kettle of fish) and the author's approach. Generally it doesn't intrude, but in the case of a novel making a strong statement about faith that I disagree with (Power and the Glory, Brideshead Revisited) or being overly/undeservedly smug about the deluded state of non-believers (Chesterton, Lewis), it can at times be an irritant. An honest expression of faith doesn't usually bother me, though: I love Ash-Wednesday and Four Quartets, and dozens of novels set firmly in a theist world with constant references to God (one of my areas is Victorian). It's like reading novels by women featuring female protagonists and points of view: it's not mine, but that isn't alienating if it's well-done, and it can make the read more interesting or enlightening.

>>8487395
you're the coward in this

>>8490220

That would be anti-theism.
Language us important friendo

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>>8490220

>>8490220
>tfw was a conservative catholic, and then realized i was gay and became atheist

>>8485634
Because GOD NEEDED ANOTHER ANGEL!

>>8485634
>why not a thunderbolt for yours truly, or something similarly awe-inspiring? The vengeful deity has a sadly depleted arsenal if all he can think of is exactly the cancer that my age and former 'lifestyle' would suggest I got.

>>8485534
Off the top of my head: Hume, de Sade, Marx, Nietzsche, Rand, Sartre, Camus, Russell, Ayer, Asimov, Bukowski, Calvino, Eco.

>>8486324
voltaire died knowing he was going to hell. he begged for 6 more months of life, and when denied that, he said he had been abandoned by God and man, and he is going to hell.

>>8496600
epic

>>8485636
>>8485634
and drank quite a lot too, which helps in that department

>>8485665
>Blasphemy is incredibly serious
>more serious than the rape and murder of small children
Friendly reminder that religion is and always shall be complete cancer

>>8485634
>name one Atheist in a foxhole
Names two
>y-yeah but God probably killed him because of it!

Two questions.

How does divine punishment work when you have a decent shot of getting into heaven as long as you convert at the last second? See Ted Bundy.

Why does God let them say all these things in the first place and only kill them after a significant period of time? Jupiter struck Capaneus down almost instantly, so what is taking God so long to new age atheists like Dawkins, Kitchens and Harris?

Hume