Did she really hate Joyce? I heard she panned Ulysses and just

>>8412936
She knew about the farts

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i'm sure it was just playful bantz

>>8412936
She's a woman. Why would she understand Ulysses?

You know when they make those 'women cannot understand the following' lists? Ulysses is on there.

For what it's worth, I have never read Ulysses.

>>8412950
Well I was planning on reading To the Lighthouse one day, but this just changed my mind. Thanks for making my backlog lighter, anon.

>>8412967
Because she didn't like one of Joyce's books?

>>8412967
Wow, what a pussy bitch you are!

>>8412970
Yes, because Joyce's prose is the best I've ever read. Someone who can't tell good literature apart from bad literature can't possibly be good at writing.

>>8412990

Guess that makes you a terrible writer then huhuhuh

>>8413004
I never claimed to be a good writer, but I have better taste than this bitch

>>8412990
>implying you can't find an example from every great writer disparaging some other great writer, which by your logic makes every writer shit

>>8413060
It doesn't bother me if it's just a great writer, but we're talking about Joyce. If you dislike Joyce, then you seriously have shit taste.

>>8413071
Get your cult of personality tripe outta here you vapid cunt

>>8412967
>>8412990
Why aren't people able to tell that this is just bants? No serious person would disregard an author because of a single comment about another author.

>>8412936
Ulysses is trash so it's ok

>>8412990
>Pulls the "prose" card in a Woolf/Joyce discussion
Man you are talking straight out of your asshole.
Both Woolf and Joyce are considered masterful prose stylists, just google Woolf vs Joyce and see how much discussion there is on the matter. Prose is practically a nonentity in the discussion, differences in the artistic merit between the two are negligible.

The real difference lies in the content, and while Joyce's strength lies in allusory themes and intricate nuances, he can't even touch Woolf's characterization and psychological insight. The depth of her existential scope is so granular it rivals Dostoyevsky. Joyce gives you that thrill of masterful intricacies, but Woolf writes to your fucking soul it's so intimate. Saying you won't read her work because she BTFO'd your favorite book only hurts you.

And she did respect Joyce's writing, she was just being overly critical in that letter.

>>8413079
>serious person
>4chan
That's why.

>And she did respect Joyce's writing, she was just being overly critical in that letter.

I agree with everything you said in your post (I'm not the person you're replying to), but can you prove that last statement? Would be pretty interesting to hear her say something nice about Jamesy

>>8413100
Meant for
>>8413081

>>8413071
Are you also going to disregard Nabokov for all the meany things he said or Tolstoy for his opinion on Shakespeare ?

>>8413081
>, he can't even touch Woolf's characterization and psychological insight. T
He literally was able to write a character who went on to write the novel equivalent of an epic that houses him.
You're speaking out of your ass.

>>8413105
Isn't he that guy who writes about... Little girls?

I wouldn't be caught dead reading that creeps work

>>8413081
>Joyce's strength lies in allusory themes and intricate nuances
I disagree, I think Joyce's greatest strength, aside from his prose, is his character development. The way he seamlessly changes perspective in his writings is nothing short of mastery, and his characters feel like real people because they actually are.

>>8413100
I'm on a phone and Im eating, just google it. She wrote many letters and essays and mentioned Joyce quite often, there was somewhat of a rivalry between the two.

>>8413145
But I'm reading, eating, and on the phone too. Come on, can't you just prove it a little?

>>8413105
cornfather loved Tolstoy
it was Dostoevsky he thought was dreadful

>>8413154
She once wrote in her diary "what I'm doing is probably being better done by Mr. Joyce" or something to that effect.
Shit's not loading on my phone.
Anyway she was obviously very intimidated that her prose and stream-of-consciousness was being rivaled by a crude Irishman

>>8413179
might want to re-read that sentence

>>8413185
fuck off

>>8413081
>>8413100
>>8413145
>>8413154
>>8413181

>''Whatever the intention of the whole, there can be no question but that it is of the utmost sincerity and that the result, difficult or unpleasant as we may judge it, is undeniably important.''

>>8412950
She said much worse i think

How does Woolf compare to Joyce?

>>8412941
Thanks I just spit out my coffee

>reading mrs dalloway
>DUDE EVERYTHING IS LIKE THE OCEAN LMAO
>I'm a woman lol xD I want to fug Walsh
>I'm unique and different to the other womyn because I AM A LESBIAN TOO
I don't know. Does it gets better later?

>>8414035
Well, Joyce is like what a fedora-wearer thinks is high literature. Woolf is okay

She couldn't have disliked him that much. She mentions Joyce positively once or twice in her essays. I'll try to find the exact quote later today, but she may have only dislike one or two of his works- certainly not all of it.

>>8414615
kys

>>8414362
I don't think any book will ever get 'better' for you, try videogames

>>8413105
What did Tolstoy say about Shakespeare

>>8414362
If that's what you're getting out of it you may as well just drop it and pick it back up after puberty

>>8413071
>>8413037
>>8412990
>>8412967

Joyce is great but please leave. Your insecurities are showing. Also kys

>>8414644
Joyce is the greatest English writer of all time, with Ulysses he bested Shakespeare.

>>8414644
>kys

This needs to be filtered

or at-least become a bannable offence

same with "lmao"

>>8414655
kys lmao

>>8414647
easy Jimmy, you're good, but, please relax.

>>8414669
kys

>>8414655
>This needs to be filtered
No. Whenever I say it, I genuinely want you to. The fact that I say it should make a pretty convincing argument for your suicide. I can tell from a very small part of your post that you possess no content, and, are dead in the most meaningful way possible already.
Pop that balloon already.

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>>8412936

My opinion of her has improved greatly with this knowledge.

I don't think Joyce is bad, but some of his work is just utter bullshit. I share her frustration. I respect people willing to call out bullshit and look stuffy, instead of pretend to like it for 'le epic trollz xD'

>>8414673
>the DFWposter is massive fucking pleb

>>8414671
I think you're trying to say something. Please continue.

>>8414679
Congrats on not reading Ulysses or at best only skimming over it

>>8414673
You people are silly. I can recognize that it's "bullshit" and still love it. Show some composure when you don't understand something. It's fine, no one is judging you.

>>8414673
>>8414684
>bullshit
kys

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>>8414647
i could take him or leave him

>>8414694
>>>/fk/

>>8414684

There's nothing to understand. He even said in interviews, it's all meaningless. It's proof that that some people (>>8414677
) will choose appearances over objective truth. "Wow, if I tell people I understand this, I'll look really smart!"

And of course, there's a lot of people in literary circles who are just here for a sense of esteem, so they flock to this bullshit, and it appears as consensus.

Ulysses is kindling.

>>8414672
>No. Whenever I say it, I genuinely want you to. The fact that I say it should make a pretty convincing argument for your suicide. I can tell from a very small part of your post that you possess no content, and, are dead in the most meaningful way possible already.
Pop that balloon already.

Kys lmao

>tfw virginia woolf will never sit on your face

>>8414736
she was very ugly, this is an extremely flattering angle

>>8414728
>There's nothing to understand. He even said in interviews, i
Way to misunderstand him, retard.

>>8412936
If anyone here read her diaries, then there probably wouldn't be need for such discussion.

She got Ulysses to review, and yes, she didn't feel that it was a good book as whole (for example the women voices, all two there, don't feel authentic). She mentions in the diaries, that everybody else there was just praising joyce, and she's writing like she has shown Ulysses to (I think) Katherine Mansfield and she read some small part and immediately said, that 'This is important, this will be taught in the future'.

Woolf than somehow admits, that it would be better to read that book again and somehow reconsider it, but she also thought that some parts of the book are just unnecessary onanism, where Joyce could show how great writer he is. And everybody who has read Woolf's books knows that she has really really different approch to the book.

And then there's diary entry when Joyce died. From that note you can see that she's sorry that he died this relatively young and that she's, after the time had passed, thinking more politely about Joyce.

>>8414728
>There's nothing to understand
Even if this were true, so what? You completely missed the point of my very plainly used statement.

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>>8413144
>character development

>>8414637
he was bad because he exaggerated

>>8413185
true
>>8413206
yikes...

>>8414749
No, she was decent looking when she was young

>>8414795
This.

>>8414362
I think killing yourself would make it all better.

>>8412936
She changed her mind towards the end.

>>8413071
Don't be silly. Get off 4chan. You sound so young and silly and 4channy.

>>8414728
Why do you think you have to understand everything you see ? Can't you appreciate the joy of absurdity once in a while ? I'd bet you think surrealism is pretentious, too.

>>8414655

literally kill yourself lmao

>>8414795
You can also piece together from how much time she had and what she was doing that she didn't succeed in rereading Ulysses like she said in her diaries. She was saving face because everyone still loved Joyce.

>>8415408
Yeah, I know that; it just felt unnecessary to add.

Although your claim that she was just saving her face seems irrelevant to me (and why lies in the personal diaries: she haven't published them, probably wasn't planning to do so). She still didn't sound convinced of the full greatness of the Ulysses and I guess a lot of people can relate to that. The last entry about Joyce is more about that it's sad he died and it's even more sad since everybody knows that she hasn't live much longer as well.

One last thing: it's completely normal that artists/writers don't share the same view on things. You know, it's funny that T.S. Eliot was so much critical about poetry of G.M. Hopkins (and everybody else was praising him hard); Eliot didn't change his view a bit, through the time, re-edtions, and critical success of Hopkins' poetry.

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My grandma gave me this book to read and I'm finding it difficult to follow; I've never really read modernist literature before.

Can anyone offer tips on how to go about approaching the book?
A way of thinking about it so I understand it better as I'm reading it?

Or is it one of those art things where you're meant to feel confused?

sory 4 pleb

>>8412936
She was butthurt.

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this is a pic of virginias mum

>>8415332
No, don't do it Septimus.

>>8415552
I would start with Mrs. Dalloway instead. I like Woolf but it is taking a lot of effort to read anything in the stream of conscious style.

>>8412936
She got hooked on TS Eliot who was a massive Joyce fanboy and wouldn't shut up about him. That's when she started to get nasty because Joyce was getting attention and not her. Joyce also didn't like Eliot all that much and was always very cool with him (and often outright hated him).

I think as she realised she'd thrown her hat in the wrong ring she mellowed out.

>>8412960
>>8412967
>>8412990
>>8413071
>>8414362

So, guys, what's going to be the final solution for neo-summerfags and pseuds?

>>8416233
Just call them plebs

>>8416146
Not him, but really? I was going to give to the lighthouse a read soon, though I wasn't under the impression that it would be difficult.

I mean, is it more similar to Ulysses or Dubliners?

>>8416651
Couldn't tell you, have only read a little of one of those. I just remembered hitting a wall with Woolf when she got into that long winded yammering.

>>8416651
It's not difficult at all. Barely even unconventional.

I would say none of Woolf's books are hard to understand.

>>8416680

I've heard Woolf described as being a lot denser than Joyce, but net easier because her books aren't nearly as long.

>>8412936
I hate Joyce and I don't even know the guy.

>>8416753
Well that seems weird to me.

Her most unique work, The Waves, has a very unusual writing style but it's not hard to follow or understand.

>>8414749
Anon doesn't want Virginia Woolf to sit on his face because she was sexy, he wants Virginia Woolf to sit on his face because she was Virginia fucking Woolf.

>>8416651
It's not very similar to Dubliners.
I found it hard to follow because it was dreadfully boring so staying focused was a chore and I had a translation. I barely remember it by now.

>>8416182
>Joyce also didn't like Eliot all that much and was always very cool with him (and often outright hated him)

From what I've read Joyce had this kind of issues with more writers. You've mentioned that T.S. Eliot was praising Joyce (till Ulysses), same goes for Ezra Pound and others: and that's because Joyce in Ulysses made english sound new and sice that's what these modernists poets were trying to achieve...

But, I read some letters between Pound and Joyce (you all probably know how much of a Pound is behind Eliot, especially The Waste Land). And Pound was giving advices to Joyce (during the publications of Ulysses parts in papers I believe), to improve his work. But Joyce's responses were cool, and it seems that he was so sure with himself, that every word there was a word of genius; he only wrote to Pound to make sure that his writing will be published and he will have money and so (that's because Pound was really influential at that time among the artists and publishers).

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if i was coming at it from her perspective I would probably hate it as well. I just finished Oxen and the sun the other day with all the endnotes that the oxford world classics edition has. Without those notes there to ground me and explain what he was doing mimicking different styles throughout the years and the whole 9 month pregnancy thing the text would feel very alien and unenjoyable to me. I imagine even with Virginia's heavy literary background there was no way for her to catch all the trickery that joyce employed in that chapter.

You guys saying you won't read her because of that are pretty stupid.

Was there ever any time that Joyce spoke about Woolf?

>>8417083
Is this anon right?

>>8417287
I doubt it. He was probably too busy with schizophrenia and eye problems and Finnegans Wake to bother with that.

>>8418400
TtL is commonly either loved or hated on this board. Those whom it doesn't resonate with dislike it. Many consider it their favorite novel. Similar to A Sun Also Rises and White Noise around here.

Writers are shit critics, they're too close to it and they also have their egos in the way. Just look at what any writer says about anyone. They usually have 5 writers they worship and don't really keep up with anyone else, and very often dismiss incredible writers based on the shallowest quirk.

>>8414655
it lessens the impact really
if you order people to commit suicide so often that you need to fucking initialise it, then its pretty hollow

>>8418400
No. It has long sentences and some extended simile but stylistically it is very simple. It's not plot focused at all so if you construe characters' internal thoughts/feelings as difficult then I guess yeah. I very recently read it as my first Woolf (and I love Joyce btw) and really loved it

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>>8419885
yeah. they devote their lives to writing and they have this idea of what a book "should" be and what constitutes good writing so as soon as they see something incongruous with their views they all start firing shots at each other.
Especially Nabokov, I don't know what that guy's deal was

>>8419829
>Schizophrenia
That never happened

>>8420027
prove it. prove you know more psychology than carl jung.

>>8420079
Nah, fuck you.

I read dubliners and portrait what else do I have to read to fully appreciate Ulysses
?

>>8420258

knock out iliad/odyssey first.

>>8420252
Then Joyce had schizophrenia and that's that.

>>8420258
Get the Oxford World's Classics edition with endnote annotations. They're essential to full understanding of the book and its many allusions, and also give a summary of each chapter of the Odyssey for reference. In addition to that, it's a facsimile of the first edition complete with errata in the appendix. For what it's worth, I haven't looked at any other edition of the book, but found the supplementary material to be very useful in this one.

>>8420271
Don't forget Hamlet

>>8420272
That doesn't logically follow.

>>8420295
u calling jung a fool ?

>>8420319
Show me a quote suggesting Jung thought Joyce had schizophrenia, then we can talk.

>>8420079
Are you implying Jung diagnosed him?

>>8420331
I don't believe there are any direct records, but there is the quote attributed to Jung, who, while treating Lucia's illness, suggested that James was going through the same thing, but that he was diving while she was falling. See this passage for a more thorough description of the account :
https://books.google.com/books?id=3yP67BPsDrUC&pg=PT75&lpg=PT75&dq=james+joyce+carl+jung+schizophrenia&source=bl&ots=WRg3tQfqkb&sig=u8pv2SDJXIdIXiKlHS64pW2d_mQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjW3ICS1NHOAhVD1B4KHW0XDXk4ChDoAQhGMAY#v=onepage&q=james%20joyce%20carl%20jung%20schizophrenia&f=false

>>8420397
That's actually pretty interesting

Also
>He took his daughter to see the doctor even though Jung wrote negatively about Ulysses

lol

>>8420741
>negatively about Ulysses
It's not so forceful as that, Jung was clearly ambiguous about it, he admitted the book overstrained him, bored him, often annoyed him, but that ultimately it taught him a lot more about himself and the world by the time he was done with it.

>>8412960
lol. /lit/: the Short Story.