What's with some science fiction novels being nearly great,

Yes I made some embarassing typos, which only corroborates my point.

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>>8390917
Sci-Fi books are created for an audience. You know who this audience is. The publisher cares more about plot devices and action scenes than thematic elements and such.

No doubt this is how Gene Wolfe got through the publishing scene (torture is cool man!) or Joe Abercrombie or Scott Lynch.

>>8390934
That's pretty insightful, I dont know how I missed that since Ive made that observation in the past for different areas of science fiction. Ah capitalism, you never let me down.

In defense of Wolfe, who I admire, Wolfe's story has almost nothing to do with the actual process of torture, especially not to the extent of Abercrombie. In fact almost none of New Sun could be considered filler, since many of the lengthy ramblings actually are key to answering the narrator's blind spots, or develop his character and validate his path to autarchy.

>>8391041
im not criticizing wolfe.

The nature of the first book (the torturer school) no doubt made some publisher think that edgy kids would buy it. It just so happened that it was thematically superior. Same with the others.

>>8390934
I think you're essentially right, anon. Video games have a similar problem; it's not the nature of the medium itself; its the fact that it's art made for an essentially inartistic audience.

>>8391052
fair enough friend. you named him alongside abercrombie, which is horrifying enough.

forgive me, I have to sperg a little more. I don't think wolfe's themes can be said to have broad appeal, new sun is built on the fringe.

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>>8390917
Part of it is down to how incredibly marketised science fiction is, as others have mentioned. Another major element is that for the most part scifi and fantasy novels are now written by fans - by people who grew up reading them, or watching scifi and fantasy movies/playing vidja/D&D/etc.

This isn't entirely bad, but it does lead to a lot of fanboys who want to write genre because of how predictable and safe it is to them - instead of writers who happen to use genre devices, who have genre devices that almost have lives of their own, that move parasitically from one interpretation to the next, from one author weaned to Star Trek to another who watched too much Evangelion, to a guy who sees himself as the next Clarke to a guy who has decided this time he'll do something different with elves (but who will still, of course, write about elves). This creates a kind of self-fellating nightmare world where John Scalzi's shitty novel about a shitty cliche on the original Star Trek is somehow now award-worthy, where fantasy novels are now ten-part series because the Lord of the Rings was three. Writers are intent on being part of the genre fold - the special club that is SF - instead of just using genre as a tool to tell stories as their inspirations did.

>>8390917
How is Seveneves, by the way?

>>8391129
Thank you.

It just seems strange to me because the better science fiction is next to high philosophy. It seems odd that a bunch of smart guys with high standards move ass backwards by staying in their tribal shells.

>>8390917
>>8390934 is pretty much right. Take your pic. He produced some pretty interesting stuff early on--ie Snow Crash and the Diamond Age--but then (arguably because he was financially successful and his publisher wanted to keep him you get shit like Cryptnomicon which could have easily been half as long and twice as good.

I honestly think that "this is a popular author and so we will let them do what they want" is the driving force behind mediocre mainstream scifi.

So, is this thread telling there can be patrician sci-fi?

>>8391184
The opposite, because MARKET!

>>8391184
If you know anything about sci-fi you know it already exists.

Muh publishers is just pleb excuse desu

>>8391163
It's very frustrating. I'm more into fantasy myself, and so much fantasy is based on Tolkien or D&D and I love Tolkien (not so much D&D). Even stuff without elves and ten-book series and magic swords mostly does so in a conscious attempt to be different, and so still fits the straitjacket of a "fantasy novel".
>>8391184
>>8391188
Well, what does 'patrician' mean? If you're talking about literary merit, a lot of SF, despite its limitations, is easily patrician.

>Patrician Sci-Fi
Maybe not, (because genre is such a nigger ghetto turf) but what about:
>Micromegas
>Gargantua and Pantagruel
>Gulliver
>Borges

>>8391222
>>8391222
>>8391222

It gets to a point where you realize that all genres, be it fantastical or realistic, are just symbols or clothing for what the author is trying to express. Making the whole literary/genre divide quite ridiculous. Its only really worth anything within the context of marketing for easy identification.

I don't think I need to get into how there's just as much shitty fiction that makes pretensions at being "literary" as there are horrifyingly bad fantasy novels.

If you're a good writer, you're a good writer. It doesn't matter what sort of "clothes" you wear.

>>8391139
I don't recommend books because (sigh).. who can take the pressure of that kind of responsibility... but I didn't stop reading it like I did with Reamde. He must have taken a lot of time to understand orbital dynamics for Anathem, because he spend an equally weird amount of time on it in Seveneves.
It also has more of a Golden Age feel to it than the cyberpunk feel of Snowcrash as well. But like everyone says; his books could be shorter without losing their entertainment.

>>8391234
>>8391199
Could you anon/s could give some examples, I'm interested.

>>8391240
Gene Wolfe
Borges
PKD
Bradbury
Asimov
Clarke
Ellison
Tolkien
Herbert

so many others

>>8391222
Micromegas, yes.
The others, well... could be, partially, but that's blurring the line too much, anyway, Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov considered Somnium as science fiction...

>>8391250
What about Sturgeon's law?
Also, on those names, several books from them really got into the 90%, not the 10%. Could you specify a little more on a particular book from them?

>>8391265
I only bring up those authors because what I read from them was quality. I really don't care about Sturgeons Law here; you asked for what's good an I gave it. The fact that they're big names shouldn't be an issue at all.

My advice is to pick a short work from any of those authors and see for yourself.

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Daily reminder that if it's not hard, your sci-fi is on the same level as fantasy.

>>8391281
daily reminder that alpha nerds don't take beta nerds like you seriously.

>>8391265
>>8391278
Just google it you faggot, he's not your personal assistant. What's so hard about that?

Time will only tell if those authors mentioned are patrician enough. Could them get to be regarded in the same patrician pantheon as Homer or Shakespeare by the cultural mores of the future?

Maybe the little prince is the best sci-fi / fantasy from XX century if you get to ask them in 500 years.

Zeitgeist's tastes are so memetical.

>>8391303
No, but you are his personal white knight, sempai. How lucky.

Regards.

>>8391323
How can he be my white knight when I'm not hiring?

>>8391294
>alpha
>beta
You're quite out of your element, /b/.
Anyway, welcome to this brave new world for you, hope you'll get a little enlightened here.

>>8391240
Stanislav Lem

>>8391323
You're not even using that word properly.

Defending has little to do with it. If someone's a faggot, like you, expect people to turn against them.

>>8391327
It's called volunteerism, anon.
It's obvious that he took the mantle for himself.
Anyway, you two make a great team by the way, keep up the good work.

>>8391346
>You're not even using that word properly.
You say? Well then, do not feel offended that much, "white knight" is not as horrible label as "faggot", so get to feel luckier and deal with it.

>Defending has little to do with it.
Sure, keep being a helping poster as you have shown.

>If someone's a faggot, like you, expect people to turn against them.
Someone giving away that many ad-hominems should be congratulated then, if going by your logic.

Now, you can keep feeling as you are feeling now and post again if you want, this thread needs more "internet tough guy" for extra fun.

OR, not.

It's up to you...

>>8391368
Nice autism faggot

>>8391368
You could be reading Borges or PKD right now if you weren't such an easy bait.

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>>8391371
So is /lit/ being visited this much by /pol/ angry anti-intellectualist nowadays.

How quaint yet amusing.

>>8391375
I have read Borges, all of it. In the original language, by the way, and PKD too, several books from him, in the original language too. Could you say the same?

Somehow you guys are being angry because /lit/ has treated sci-fi badly in the past, well, not shame on me.

>>8391397
All I did was some namedropping, dude. I'm actually wondering why you're taking this bitter route. It didn't really need to go there.

/lit/ dosent even fucking read so who cares what they say about anything

OP here.

The questions been answered, and it was a good thread whose purpose was fulfilled satisfactorily. So if you want to toy with the troll, feel free.

>>8391397
>>8391401
Agreed, no one cares what /lit/ thinks.

Besides, Bloom likes some fantasy and sci-fi, so the plebs here who badmouth genre fiction automatically go into the toilet. xD

>>8391401
I'm not bitter, I was just asking valid questions and got attacked, as shown in the thread.
So I only pointed the obvious from the poster behaviours after that point.

Anyway, keep expressing your ideas, the post will evolve into what the participants will take it into, echo chamber or not.

>>8391422
The things is...I'm not going to launch into an essay on the merits of all these authors whose works are so easily accessible and readily acclaimed, the best you can do is read them.

And if you really did read all of Borges and PKD then why even bother asking me to explain? Hell if there was a particular author you wanted to know about you should have specified directly, that would've made things much easier.

So? The thread's conclusion is that Borges and PKD are the sure bets for patrician sci-fi besides those classics aforementioned? Nobody defended or mentioned again those other modern authors yet. Someone mentioned Lem once by the way.

desu just read what the fuck you want

>>8391422
You got smacked down because you had a bitchy tone you annoying faggot.

Just read. If you don't like it, then stop. An echo chamber is better than a pleb shitposting.

>>8391448
Serious readers don't have to talk to arrogant morons.

>>8391441
>>8391441
Not an essay but:

I haven't read much of Ellison besides A thoughtful dog and his horny boy. I saw that star trek episode tho. Do he has something better than that? I can see XX century cold war fans in the future would enjoy it in the way some people would enjoy scarlet pimpernel for the exotism of times begone.

Herbert is good for a sector sci-fi, but it's as sci-fi as Orlando Furioso. Tastes good in the early books, then it dwells into pleasing the market. It will not age well for sure, yet I still love those first fresh impressions from it.

Asimov is quite dry in his fiction, plot driven and poor character development, his best is scientific divulgation, but that gets old as science keeps expanding the horizons. Soon it will be as good as reading Santiago Ramon y Cajal about neuro-science.

Tolkien (by far not sci-fi, sempais) got influenced by the market too, his best is The Hobbit(pre-market success), when it was an anti-militarist anti-epic book for young readers, Not an artificial convoluted racist luddite catholic-apologist emulation of real myths about how war, religion and epic stuff is so ingrained into our homo-apiens hardware . Why to drink kool-aid with ethanol if you can taste a sauvignon. Kalevala is way more authentic.

Clarke is IMO good and touches important points about the nature of the future unknown, conciousness and the infinitum, I think he could get to be appreciated in the future, but not as a necessary essential. Sci-fi does not ages well.

Bradbury is excellent, and I regard him as a future essential to understand our epoch, as a triad with Orwell and Huxley.

I have to confess ignorance about Wolfe, /lit/ mentions it a lot, but does he has any outstanding sci-fi? or is it just fantasy?

>>8391512
For Gene Wolfe his Sci-fi grandstands are "Fifth Head of Cerberus" and "Book of the New Sun"

I actually agree a bit on Asimov, too dry for my tastes but I respect him enough. Will havev to respectfully disagree on Tolkien but you're right he is fantasy and not sci-fi.

You guys getting trolled in your own turf and reacting, haha. Even OP got out of the airlock.

The keks gets better by the post. Shit you not /lit/.

>>8391512
Have you read the first book of Gaskun's sci fi? He doesn't post much anymore but he wrote a huge fucking space opera

>>8391491
Then you'll get post so little in /lit/, sempai.
Oh my, such a sysyphus job you have there.

>>8391512
Asimov probably won't last.

Clarke is good and evocative, but most of his stories are technically worded. A slightly dumbed down Clarke would be amazing.

Gene Wolfe is superb, but mostly grim or superficially boring. Not everyone's cup of tea.

>>8391525
Fuck off Gaskun. Go be a loser somewhere else.

>>8391491

>>8391523
>>8391538
Case in point, some morons. Lit as a whole is cucked, including these guys.

>>8391557
not even that anon but why disrespect Gaskun? he puts his work in like everyone else

>>8391462
>faggot
>pleb
>shitposting
Such amazing contribution to the great cause, opinions like these should be valued highly, everybody, let's cheer this special comrade!!

пoбeдa!!!

>>8391557
Not Gaskun. but thnx, I haven't been verbally accosted by a dipshit on the internet all day. Go cuddle with your full color copy of House of Leaves, you proto-lit shitposting faggot

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>>8391557
>Lit as a whole is cucked, including these guys.
Seems that you just signed into that club, old sport. Thanks for contributing.

>>8391561
That nigga is dedicated. Even if it's just for space opera

>>8391567
Man, sure you're angry by now, cool down, now you're just attacking everyone besides you. It really shows you as how you are and is nauseating.

>>8391561
Praising his garbage as a huge space opera is like praising America for selling the most self help books in the world. Its all a waste of time.

I might like gaskun but his dingus shillers need to stop blindly exhalting his infantile fantasies.

>>8391590
i haven't even read his book lol, chill the fuck out. I'd say just on attitude and approach alone he's more valuable than 99% of people on this shitty board.

>>8391567
Does anyone know if there's a scifi or fantasy version of house of leaves?

>>8391562
Yes anon, hurray, let's keep dealing with these underaged summer children calling out faggots. Q'pla!

>>8391576
Some gaskun fans make him look good.

>>8391567
>>8391595
Some make him seem like a cunt.

Being better than most losers still makes him a loser.

>>8391609
What's the name of your book, homosex? Put up or shut up.

>>8391631
Gaskun - Gorilla Warfare

An extract:
>What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.

>>8391631
>needs to be a writer to evaluate literature
>needs to be a CS major to use a computer

Gr8 logic retard

>>8391649
>doesn't have a book of his/her/it's/xur own but shits on others who have

Buy a rope and chair
???
Profit.

>>8391139
i've read it about six times and i still can't remember how it ended.

>>8391250
>Gene Wolfe

fantasy disguised as SF

>Borges

fantasy

>PKD

fantasy disguised as SF

>Bradbury

fantasy disguised as SF

>Asimov

SF

>Clarke

SF

>Ellison

fantasy and austistic levels of self-promotion disguised as SF

>Tolkien

fantasy

>Herbert

SF

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Anger in autistic children with restricted interests, the post.

>>8391656
Wondering why.

>>8391597
please some kind of crazy experimental science fiction or fantasy

>>8391710
Slaughterhouse-Five,

>>8391710
Feersum Endjinn by Banks, not as much as a sci-fi Finnegans Wake, but the phonetics are interesting, maybe not your cup of tea.

>>8391710
Gravity's rainbow got a nebula nomination. Does that makes it sci-fi enough for this thread?

>>8391710
Italo Calvino's The Complete Cosmicomics, has from cosmical to living as a mollusc,

>>8391710
Lem's The Futurological Congress, shit was so cash.

>>8391729
I read it. The phonetics were inconsequential, as Banks' experiments tend to be. All due respect. I don't think Feersum's experimentation defines it as much as House of Leaves had for its.

I loved Feersum Endjinn. I can honestly regard it thematically as a one-volume Book of the New Sun. There's some Japanese entertainment similar to it right?

>>8391710
Vladimir Sorokin's Ice trilogy, was difficult to translate tho, because it's, er, weird, complex, dunno.

>>8391710
Rajaniemi's The Quantum Thief (haven't read the followups)

>>8391734
>>8391745
>>8391753
>>8391753
I read those. GR is pretty good, but it's more about paranoia and how rockets are penises than it is scifi. Lem's A Perfect Vacuum is closer to what I had in mind, though I remember only three of its stories vividly. I think Lem's Summa is still better read in Polish, but now that Lem's been mentioned, I might pick up Polish primarily for that.

>>8391760
>>8391765

I'll look into it, cool recs.

>>8391710
Someone Comes to Town, Someone Leaves Town.
It's not sci-fi house of leaves, but it's experimental, maybe you should look into other hypertext fiction, anon, even if not printed.

>>8391710
>experimental
Dhalgren? It was good enough for Umberto Eco tho.

>>8391783
Even if not sci-fi I would say, hypertext sci-fi isn't a thing yet.

If you enjoy hypertext-like stories, you would get to like Nabokov's Pale fire(I love it, the annotated version for extra crunchy long notes, even when my sisters say it's quite sterile), or Cortazar's Rayuela. James Joyce's Ulysses should be mentioned in this tier too. Damn, I'm going to read those again, incluiding house of leaves too, that tasty tesseract-like constructs. But first I'll get farther into Finnegans wake, cracks me in the good sense.

>>8391789
It's been compared to Ulysses and FW, but imo New Sun better matches that comparison.

Funny story, I've talked to Delany and he's such a pleasant guy I felt ashamed that I've reacted poorly to Dhalgren as PKD did (though I threw it against the wall after I was finished). Eco is probably right, but Delany paints words averse to my tastes. I've read some of his literary criticism, but for a field as rich as semiotics, Delany's topics seem a bit parochial.

His award winning novella I did enjoy. I'm baffled as to why its cover looks like it was made in PowerPoint.

I like hypertext fiction. I also avoid it tvtropes, or history, because I like it too much. Get me reading some, and I'll regain self awareness 36 hours later, with a bad smell and a stubble.

>>8391822
Now that Cortazar had been mentioned, I should tell about "The Autonauts of the Cosmoroute", it's more surrealism/magic realism than sci-fi. But it's as good as "Hopscotch" IMO.

>>8391846
Cortazar was very into fantasy and sci-fi in his infancy, it bleeds into his prose, and that's good.

>>8390934

In truth the torture is what made me want to read the book in the first place. It was only an accident that I happened to thoroughly enjoy every other aspect of it.

>>8391837
Hypertext and/or stream of consciousness sci-fi should be a thing. Has to.

>>8390934
You, and most people really, missed what Wolfe was trying to say. Torture is evolution!!!!

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The angry closet cases and the wordy troll went to sleep, post more books!!! /sci-fi/

>>8391665
Wolfe doesn't really work as either.

>>8391684
what was the big mcguffin at the end? that some of the people who'd stayed on earth had survived? we knew that as soon as we found that truck had been moved. something about the underground humans making an alliance with .. whoever the fuck it was, i can't even remember who the two sides of the orbital communities were.

>>8391825
>Funny story, I've talked to Delany and he's such a pleasant guy I felt ashamed that I've reacted poorly to Dhalgren as PKD did


have you read "Hogg"? and you were in the same room as Delany? you're braver than i am.

>>8391139
Like it pretty much, except the infodumps weren't as entertaining or as funny as in Crypto.

A lot of engineering porn and huge shift 2/3rds in. Should have been two books, or one novel and a short story. Still cannot write an ending.

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Aurora, has anyone read it? I'm interested in the spaceship is the narrator thing.
What is your opinion on pic related?

>>8390917
Genre fiction in general is filled with a lot of writers who have one or two good ideas, and start books based on those ideas, but who don't exactly have the most fleshed out writing skills. So, things like knowing when to cut their stories short, or when to leave superfluous details out, can often go over their heads.

Plus, it's genre fiction, the audience is usually not that bright either, and they just want a thick book to read... so whatever adds to the length of the book, be it fluff or not, will often be welcomed by readers.

Personally, I think that as a writer, your favorite books should always be non-fiction and you should be well read in non-fiction. It makes you a more rounded writer. Never ever approach genre fiction as purely a fan of genre fiction.

>>8391250
>Clarke
Mind recommending me some of his books? I have a massive collection of them, but no idea which ones are worth it outside of Childhood's End, Ranma, and the 2001 series.

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>>8391512
>TOLKIEN IS A RACIST CHRISTIAN WHITE MALE!1!1!!1!

>>8391448
> Borges
> Sci-fi

In your dreams.