Who's the most rigorously trained Catholic intellectual

Umberto Eco, who died in Feb

>>8376386
>Catholic
>intellectual

kek lel m8

Alisdair MacIntyre, who we never fucking talk about.

>>8376389
he was catholic raised and religiously ambiguous to clarify

>>8376386
Probably Terry Eagleton.

>>8376405
Fuuuuck how did I forget Benedict? The man is literally a genius.

>>8376401
http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/10/book-review-after-virtue-or-somebody-here-is-really-confused-and-i-just-hope-its-not-me/

>>8376405
Ratzinger is a fucking madman.
Is there any other pope at his level of greatness?

>>8376427
>slatestarcodex
reddit.jpg

>>8376429
He's going to be a Doctor of the Church within five years of his death. He's so fucking great. Hearing all the stuff he did behind the scenes about the abuse scandal is actually really inspiring too, though of course nobody ever gives him credit for it.

>>8376453
>though of course nobody ever gives him credit for it.
I don't know, he already has a miracle under his belt (clairvoyance), I think he'll break the record for fastest canonization.

They'd all be apologists, wouldn't they?

>>8376453
Interesting, what did he do behind the scenes? I haven't ever heard about this.

>>8377252
Defrocked hundreds, even thousands of priests found guilty of abuse. Also personally met with many victims, too. But, again, he never publicized it.

"And your Father who sees in secret will repay you."

>>8377240
>he already has a miracle under his belt (clairvoyance)
Can you explain this? I'm really curious.

>>8376391
*tip*

>>8377276
http://www.lastampa.it/2013/02/18/vaticaninsider/eng/the-vatican/ratzingers-forgotten-prophesy-on-the-future-of-the-church-h7DcrYFxNmAleoeDLkekzN/pagina.html

>>8377314
Here's a better article: http://aleteia.org/2016/06/13/when-cardinal-joseph-ratzinger-predicted-the-future-of-the-church/

>>8376453
*Servant of God

>>8377240
There are no such things as miracles

>>8377277
No thanks I don't do indulgences :^)

>>8376401
I'm offended, I've been systematically shilling him for a month now.
>>8376386
Joseph Ratzinger
Alistair MacIntyre
Edward Feser
Peter Geach and his wife, Elizabeth Anscombe, the only woman philosopher Wittgenstein respected.
Gene Wolfe
>>8377252
None of these are apologists. Apologists are guys like Perer Keeeft and Scott Han.

>>8376429
>>8376453
Mind giving a quick summary of why he's so great? You know, to us heretics who only see him on dank memes comparing him to the emperor in Star Wars

>>8377536
He has a clear vision of the historical dialectic, he's concise and clear in his language, but also poetic and moving, systematic and well researched, his piety seeps into his works like it did for Augustine and so on. He wrote like 75 books, subjects vary so what's good about one book isn't necessarily good for the other.

>>8376401
This, or Charles Taylor. I'd personally choose the latter.

Rene Gérard died recently.

>>8377494
Fuck I hate Kreeft, my Catholic friend is always pushing him, I read one of his works to get him to shut up, and it was awful.

(still not as bad as Lewis, tho)

>>8377644
Unlike MacIntyre, Taylor does not get mentioned often.
Rene Gerard seems too frech for me, one of those it's nice, but why should I accept any of the premises?

>>8377646
Lewis isn't that bad. And neither is Kreeft. His classes on Aquinas and Platonic tradition are good high school material. They are written for plebs who aren't into actual philosophy.

>>8376391
this tbqh

>>8377267
Tbh if a church person had been raping me, knowing that there's another man who was watching the whole time is the last thing I'd want to hear.

>>8377267
>even thousands of priests found guilty of abuse
There have been just over 400 priests found guilty of abuse for the period of 50 years.

>>8376386
taylor by far
read a secular age; very fluid
good job
i like it

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>>8377494
These
also pic related

>>8378078
Shill him more mate, what did he write about?

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>>8378090
Basically :
-A fuckload of journalistic critic on literature, philosophy, theology and politics, some of them are in L'abeille de Delphes and La source sacrée
-Some studies on poets (Blake [which is monumental], La Fontaine, etc)
-Totally wrecked Sartre in a pamphlet, also hurt really bad Deleuze/Guattari in Apocalypse du désir
-Made some royalist theory following Maurras but in metaphysics (La politique, Reprendre le pouvoir)
-Hugely inspired by Gabriel Marcel, wrote his thesis on secret following a meditation on Exodus' "Sum qui sum" (praised by Marcel and Steiner, the latter saying that it was one of the greatest metaphysical texts of the century)
-Wrote novels, the latest (Le purgatoire) inspired by Dante, Pound and Joyce (said to be a kind of French Ulysses)

He was a very faithful catholic and an incredible scholar, very influenced by Augustine and Aquinas, but also Cusa, Vico, the Greek Fathers, and familiar with the Nouvelle Théologie's authors (von Balthasar, de Lubac).

It's sad that he's not translated, he'd be a hero on that board that wants everybody to start with the Greeks, as he himself could quote by memory nearly any major ancient text.

Also, pic related
>he'd challenge people for arm wrestling while quoting Plato, Dante or Pound

>>8379219
Strange how France still has a fuckload of Catholic authors, or had them up until recently.
He sounds pretty interesting. I'm held up with other shit atm, but I may check him out in the following year.

>>8377653
Lewis is bad when people in my year cite him like the Bible itself. (Christian University fag, reporting in)

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>>8379219
>It's sad that he's not translated
God dammit Anon.

>>8379244
That's absolutely true, but I've never had that problem.
Also
>protestantism
>>8379247
Bit strange, ain't it?

>>8379234
If you understand French, I'd suggest you these two discussions on Antigone and Abraham between Steiner and him
http://www.ekouter.net/echanges-autour-du-mythe-d-antigone-et-du-sacrifice-d-abraham-avec-george-steiner-et-pierre-boutang-sur-france-3-2187
and the ones with Jean-Marie Domenach
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCTfGczu8SY

I'm shilling so hard for him but I think he deserves to be more widely known. Let's hope he'll be translated for non-French.

>>8379254
I don't.
Unless by some miracle it's in Croatian in some used book shop.

>>8379271
I should try to translate him in English but I'm far from understanding him fully in French, his style can be hermetic. Hopefully there are fucktons of notes.

If I take enough time, that may be (partly) done, with the help of some native English-speaker.

What is intellectual about Catholicism exactly?

I mean, I can see how you, if you are one, need to figure out a way to relate your religious worldview to a constantly evolving capitalist economy and society, but I don't see how there is any "intellectualizing" with a position that pretty much hasn't changed for 2 millennia.

>>8379281
How come the French Joyce Aquinas Ratzinger who btfo French preuds hasn't gotten translated?
I'm assuming you've checked out all the relevant torrent sites?

>>8379293
So contemporary aristotelianism and say Marxism are not intellectual because they only adapt? This is true for large portions of both.

>>8379293
I'm sorry, but did you just imply Catholicism hasn't changed in 2 millennia?

>>8379313
Yeah I did, because the fundamental dogma of the Church hasn't changed. It considers itself the sole bearer of Jesus Christ's legacy, and whatever does in fact change, clearly is just commentary compared to that.

Are you saying the Catholic Church will at some point consider abortion fine? Doubt it.

Are you saying the Catholic Church will at some point approve of homosexual relationships and marriage? Doubtful.

I could go on but maybe you get my point.

>>8379323
Are you saying the Catholic Church should even consider the possibility of abortion being "fine"?

Jesus Anon, I'm not even Christian and you've managed to trigger me with your ignorance.

>>8379335
>Are you saying the Catholic Church should even consider the possibility of abortion being "fine"?

Why not? It's legal up to a point in most of the Western world.

The point I'm trying to make is that very little intellectualizing takes place, when your opinions are absolutist and dogmatic.

But you're welcome to prove me wrong.

>>8379323
>Yeah I did, because the fundamental dogma of the Church hasn't changed.
A lot was added to the dogmas. What exactly goes for fundamental if not dogma itself? Or
>It considers itself the sole bearer of Jesus Christ's legacy, and whatever does in fact change, clearly is just commentary compared to that.
What exactly goes for that has been a topic for as you say, millennia. Eastern Orthodoxy takes pride in never changing anything, the Catholic church sees itself as a living being which grows.
>Are you saying the Catholic Church will at some point consider abortion fine? Doubt it.
>Are you saying the Catholic Church will at some point approve of homosexual relationships and marriage? Doubtful.
>I could go on but maybe you get my point.
I do and the point is that you have an incredibly shallow understanding of the intellectual history of the Catholic church.
Books on the subject:
Essay on Development of Christian Doctrine by John Henry Newman
God, Philosophy, Universities by Alasdair MacIntyre

>>8379297
He's not even that known in France.
There's a recent sort of comeback, but mainly due to people doing introductions to his philosophy or biographies.

It's mainly due to his political views, he was a royalist and a fervent oponent to the French Republic, prefered Pétain over De Gaulle (even if he changed his mind on him later on) in the WW2 (wasn't part of the Résistance, but worked to get the Germans out). He was the friend and disciple of Charles Maurras who got imprisoned for "collaboration" because he was petainist even if he was, as his pupil, very anti-german.
He had no possibility to teach philosophy until 1967 (so, at more than 50 years of age) due to that.

Also, anti-marxist, anti-structuralist, very religious, using theologians and unknown (at least at the time) philosophers like Vico to do his stuff.
I guess in France that's the best way to get nobody in the huge press to talk about you. But I think he's kind of like these Russian philosophers that were totally unknown back then but whose thoughts started to be spread after the Perestroyka.

>>8379346
Read a book son. This is some insane amount of ignorance.
The fact that something is legal is absolutely irrelevant.
The point you are making is utter nonsense.
I can't prove you wrong because it's 2000 years of philosophy, theology, mysticism, spirituality I'd need to compress into one 4chan comment.
And if you aren't willing, and already know this little, on a literature board, there is no way I can help you. Especially considering there are lets say 20 book recommendations for the past 50 years of only academic philosophy.
>>8379350
There are Russian philosophers?
Jokes aside, I see what you mean. It is a shame, but the fact that his works are being read by our generation speaks to his quality, if you've reached him, there are bound to be more enthusiasts in the future.

>>8379346
Catholic doctrine isn't absolutist, they regularly issue new documents on the Churches official stance regarding ethical, philosophical and heretical thought.

Catholicism is a major sponsor of Theology, Religious Studies and Philosophy; you can't even become a Priest without a PhD.

And the Pope isn't infallible.

>>8379374
>There are Russian philosophers?
Yup.
Some were totally shut-down when bolsheviks and communists were in charge, basically any kind of religious thinker, like Berdiaev, Soloviev, Losev, Bulgakov, Ilyin and others.
They still could think and publish works, as some were exiled (mainly in France, see the Philosopher's ship), but it was not known in Russia until the 90s or the 2000s.

>all these unironic Christlards on 4chan

Times really have changed.

>>8379393
No it hasn't newfriend, obviously you weren't around when /new/ was a thing.

>>8379219
>Augustine and Aquinas, but also Cusa, Vico, the Greek Fathers, and familiar with the Nouvelle Théologie's authors (von Balthasar, de Lubac).

I approve

>>8379385
I would argue that you can be easily misinterpreted.
It isn't absolutist, but dogmas are absolute.
New documents are always consistent with the tradition of the faith, with an odd one here or there, like well everything Francis has written, but that is mostly due to a new vague language.
The pope is infallible, but only when speaking ex cathedra with the council of bishops supporting him.
>>8379391
I only recognize Bulgakov from the list and I know some of their legal theorists by name from college. Ex commie country and all.
Are they similar to Dostoevsky as in being novelist philosophers?

>>8379400
>approving of the borderline heretical nouvelle theologie

>>8379401
>Are they similar to Dostoevsky as in being novelist philosophers
Nope, they're much more traditional philosophers, yet they were strongly influenced by Dostoevsky, so there's this mystical vibe in their texts (not Ilyin though).

>>8379419
I would expect something like that for sure. How relevant and interesting are they?
Compared to the relevance of Feser or MacIntyre for example?

>>8379425
I'd say it may interest you if you want to understand more about the Russian way of thinking, especially the pre-revolutionary one, or the direct post-revolutionary one (Berdiaev's Philosophy of Inequality for example).
You can also relate what they wrote with some actual situations, it's interesting in that way too.
Losev was an orthodox fed by the Greek thought, in that sense it can be nice to see what is the eastern point of view on Antic philosophy.
Soloviev wanted to unite the Churches and had a correspondance with Archbishop Strossmayer.
Ilyin was more of a political thinker, counter-revolutionary and basically the ideologue of the White Army. He's being used as a reference in Putin's politics.
There also are some others like Leontiev, who was radically opposed to the Western civilization and developped his system around Asiatism, among other things.

It's diverse, but can be useful to understand the Russian people, because there's a continuity of these thoughts. They have a strong messianic tone too, but it's common in Russian philosophy.

>>8379475
Croatian bishop Strossmayer? Sounds interesting.
Ilyin sounds the most interesting, mostly because the rest sound too Russian for people without specific orthodox or rusophile views.

>>8377647
>>8377647
Taylor is more of an apologist though, or am I wrong? I didn't read nearly all of Secular Age though.

I like Rene Girard a lot. One of the strongest arguments for Christianity not being a myth because it's pretty difficult for secularists to deny mimetic desire.

>>8379323

Please do go on

>>8377339
Then how did Jesus rise from the dead?

>>8379491
From what I know of Girard, mostly from First Things articles, his claims are very similar to many postmodernists in the way that it's hard to deny it as sound, but also not founded on enough arguments and evidence to accept him.

>>8379498
He didnt

>>8379523
You've got any proof son?

>>8379530
Thats not how burden of proof works

>>8379550
Yes it is.

>>8379523
Why did the Jews have to concoct a cover story about why his guarded and sealed tomb was empty?

Why was no body every produced?

Why did all of his followers go to their deaths swearing they knew He was alive?

Why are you, and I mean you, talking about an itinerant Jewish rabbi 2000 years later? Had any good discussions about Gamaliel lately?

>>8377267

>Let's just pretend those aren't crimes. We'll handle it internally.

>Let's not mention it was tens of thousands of pedophiles being protected by the whore.

>>8379561
No it isnt and you know it.

>>8379564
All unverifiable hearsay.

>>8379530
>>8379561
>>8379564
We won today, boys

>>8379617
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMwPEmUMP7U

>>8379617
Memes can win against anything.

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>>8376405
Why did he always look so villainous?

>>8381932
That's not villainous at all, but it is aesthetic af

>>8381932
looks like me hehe

>>8381949
>tfw you'll never be nearly that handsome

>>8376386
>Catholic intellectuals

>>8381932
/fa/ as fuck

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>>8379564
>Why are you, and I mean you, talking about an itinerant Jewish rabbi 2000 years later
Last time I checked Theodosius didn't convert to Pharisaic Judaism, you historical illiterate. That is 100% not how the burden of proof works.

>>8382781
I like your meta meme lad

>>8382789
thank you much senpai
in seriousness though it's frustrating to discuss religion outside of /his/ when the faithful assert their faith as empirical evidence of something, when the essence of faith is literally existing independent of empirical evidence

>>8382801
/his/ is pretty shitty and it is easy to defend the thesis that everyone has a faith because of a certain number of axioms you must take and philosophy being more or less a never ending discussion on elaboration of ones faith in xyz.

>>8382801
Thinking of something like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbmPXXO8jpA

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>>8382801
You've almost become self-aware and now realize this is why STEMfags laugh at us.

You think it gets any better when two minds at the top of their fields headbutt? lolNope, the televised debate between chomsky and sartre was literally "Universal language doesn't exist yo", "huh-uh yes it does" for 60 minutes.

>>8383017
>Chomsky and Sartre are top minds
Mate, I agree with what you are saying, but what the fuck?!?!

>>8383017
>>8383025
>sartre
Foucault, fuck.

>>8383028
Focault works.
Basically, we pick out own beliefs and traditions of thought, work from there.

>>8383032
>we pick out own beliefs and traditions of thought

Now we do, but this is a ultra-modern practice in a desperate attempt to restore confidence in Philosophy.

>>8383047
It makes sense desu.
It isn't only for philosophy, it's for just about everything else.