I have no idea why people praise this shit. There's too

>>7917473
theyre bad but not for the reasons you listed. would you rather get into a bathtub full of rotting dead rats or a sick persons snot?

You're wrong. The books are very good I just really super badly wish the next book would come out already!!

>>7917473
>storm of swords split into two

Wut

>>7917482
Why are they bad?
>>7917483
Why are they good?

They're shit because i'm shit at memorizing names and there's like 1000 characters in them. I also hate lore; i understand it's used so that we can see the world as realistic and shit but it's incredibly boring specially when he drags it page after page. The characters are somewhat boring too, they do develop, but way too slowly. I felt like they were repeating themselves over and over and over again every single chapter; only after half a book or more you'll start seeing changes in their ways, but it's way too slow if you're an impatient fuck like me.

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>>7917502
I'd like to add that the characters are basic to begin with, but killed off before he can really do anything with them. If I had to describe his writing in one word it would be "lazy." In three words it would be "lazy as fuck." He's unimaginative, oh whoopee dragons! Never seen that before! Uh-oh, people getting murdered and raped? Edgy!

He's a fucking pussy when it comes to his "brutality" read some Brent Weeks if you want brutal. People get catapulted over the walls of cities, alive, in the second book in The Lightbringer Series. Shit's fucked.

OH but the "main character" dies in the first game of thrones book!!!! Edgy!!!!

I think they're great, but you're not "wrong" for not liking them. He spends a shitton of time on his characters and the world they're in, I find find that entertaining, you may not.
What I don't understand is people attacking his writing, it's perfectly average to me.

The ostensible point of the perspective changes is some wort of world building, but what it really is 10 little pulp thrillers in a fantasy setting. But it's tv writing so people gobble it up.

>>7917516
>People get catapulted over the walls of cities, alive, in the second book in The Lightbringer Series.
Well that literally happens in the second book of ASOIAF as well.

>>7917598
>He spends a shitton of time on his characters and the world they're in

No he doesn't, you probably read don't read many books

>>7917598
>it's perfectly average to me.
First, average is not a compliment. It doesn't even mean it's acceptable, it means you're mediocre and you shouldn't be praised and successful.
Second, I find his style slightly more monotone and boring than average.

>>7917630
>First, average is not a compliment
I know, but in contrast to the people calling it absolute garbage it is.

Weren't they well liked before the TV show? I still enjoy them but the HBO series has attracted the worst kind of retards to the franchise, I remember way before it was even announced ASOIAF was well discussed here on /lit/ there was even a thread of someone who received A Dance with Dragons early.

Pleb Tier can be enjoy on Audiobooks.
Roy Dotrice fuels my Squats.

Pleb tier

>>7917494
World building is excellent
Characters are multifaceted and unique
Grrm doesn't write pretentiously, but the plot is still complex
Tons foreshadowing and hints etc. That lead to some enjoyable theorycrafting

Very enjoyable

>>7917626
this right here.

>>7917659
Because it's fucking garbage.

>>7918848
>world building is excellent

Westeros is Great Britain turned upside down, you're straight up retarded if you think this is at all any good.

>Characters are multifaceted and unique

No, they're flat, boring, and die before they can change

>He doesn't write pretentiously, the plot is complex

The plot is basic, the writing is super fucking pretentious.

>Tons of foreshadowing and hints

0/10 bait, you're retarded, go read a real book.

>>7919357
>go read a real book
Like?

>>7919382
Phenomenology of Spirit

>>7917473
We have this thread every day.

Seriously, the books are all right. Not as amazing as people say they are, but what the fuck is? Anyone saying it's shit has /v/ syndrome. It's overrated -- so people underrate it in response.
>>7917626
fag
>>7919357
>Westeros is Great Britain turned upside down,
Meme tier response. Everything looks like something, and Westeros *looking* like GB + Ireland doesn't mean shit. It means so little, in fact, that your belief it does mean something reveals your complete ignorance.

You want to say the world building's bad? Point out the lack of depth in the religions. In the cultures. It's not *that* bad, though, and it does capture a quasi-late-medieval feel very well.

They're not flat, they're not boring, and deaths are severely overstated.

The plot is not basic, although it's not exactly complex either. The writing is definitely not pretentious.

Honestly, it seems like you've never read the books at all, and all your knowledge of it comes from half-read /lit/ memes.
>>7919382
Staying fantastical -- Worm Ouroboros, Wolfe, Vance &c.

>>7919357
>world building is only physical

Ayy lmao.

>>7919418
Gotta get that geography done. World tilt, continents, rivers -- these are obviously the most important part of worldbuilding. Otherwise it wouldn't be called world*building*, see?

>>7917473
They are pulp books. They do their job at being pulp books.

>>7919461
They are not pulp books. Pulp books are, by their nature, cheap, small, and rely on easy-to-churn-out genre conventions.

If you mean they're populist books, then sure.

>>7919475
That was until they discovered they could just make longer and longer series...

>>7919507
They always had long series. Look at Conan. The whole point is that they're portable, though, and regularly produced in small chunks. And also basically career follow-the-leaders, although sometimes they ARE the leaders (Conan).

No, ASoIaF is not pulp. I *like* pulp, by the way, so this isn't me trying to defend Martin so much as just being autistic.

>>7919520
Fair point!

>>7919405
Excellent suggestion. Hegel's fucking awesome.

>>7917494
>Why are they bad?

Muddled plot. Bungled arcs. Disjointed narrative. Bad prose. A lack of clarity of vision and no end in sight.

GURRM clearly has no idea how to end the series, and after killing off so many major characters, he resorts to creating new characters and arcs without sufficiently fleshing out already established arcs.

Jaime is a good character though. That's about it.

Maybe I'm just as dumb as a box of rocks, but I could never work out how the planet where the story seems to take place actually worked. What sort of force would cause it to wobble on its orbital axis so erratically? Surely there would be some predictability? But no, you can go from having a winter of three years to a summer of nine years with no explanation.

And I never worked out how the fruit worked. To grow an apple tree from seed, the seeds need to go through an extended cold period (90 days) before they will germinate. Many plants require this. Fruit-bearing plants also require seasons to trigger flowering, and without flowering there are no fruit. So how is food grown when summer lasts for nine years, and the trees would only go through the winter/summer cycle once. How do the crop-growing seasons work? Or are there annual winter/summer cycles going on within the world and the "winters" are actually short and turbulent ice ages induced by volcanic activity or something?

I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW EVERYONE ISN'T EITHER LIVING IN AN INCREDIBLY NARROW BAND BY THE TROPICAL EQUATOR OR DEAD. IT IS COMPLETELY ILLOGICAL. THERE WOULD BE NO FOOD AND WIDESPREAD FAMINE AND DROUGHT EVEN DURING THE GOOD TIMES WHICH ARE SUPPOSEDLY THE SUMMERS.

>>7919724
This right fucking here. Annoyed the living shit out of me.
>>7919409
That's just one reason why his world building sucked. The world was lazily created and it shows. I made it through two and a half of the books before I was so put off by the series I couldn't continue. Then I went and read something good.

>>7919382
Literally anything else. I'm reading Metro 2033 right now and it's much better.

>>7919418

Physical world is the most important part of world building

Can you fucks then suggest a good Fantasy series?

>>7920042
>>7919724
GRRM already said that it was magic. The explanation was supposed to be given in the last book.

>>7921044
"Magic" is the laziest excuse in history, if that is the case.

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>>7917486

Both ASoS and ADwD are published in two volumes in the UK paperback edition.

>>7921059

What he actually said is that it will be "a fantasy explanation".

More context: "The most conspicuous aspect of the world of Westeros in The Song of Ice and Fire is the nature of the seasons, the long and random nature of the seasons. I have gotten a number of fan letters over the years from readers who are trying to figure out the reason for why the seasons are the way they are. They develop lengthy theories: perhaps it’s a multiple-star system, and what the axial tilt is, but I have to say, “Nice try, guys, but you’re thinking in the wrong direction.” This is a fantasy series. I am going to explain it all eventually, but it’s going to be a fantasy explanation. It’s not going to be a science-fiction explanation."

http://web.archive.org/web/20070620204941/http://www.darkfantasy.org/weirdtales/2007/05/george-rr-martin-on-magic-vs-science.html

>>7920394
>good
>fantasy
You like what you like.

>>7920394
Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson
Black Prism by Brent Weeks
Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss.

Go crazy

>>7921070
>I am going to explain it all eventually

AKA I'm a lazy fuck of a writer who plans on dying of diabeetus before I explain everything in my shitty fucking books.

Fuck Martin. Cuck of a writer.

>>7921083
I'm sorry you have no imagination. Maybe you'd like to read Whaling Manual the book. Otherwise known as Moby Dick.

>>7920042
>I don't like something but I can't explain why so I'll call your taste shit

>>7920042
>Physical world is the most important part of world building
Anon, I was joking when I posted >>7919429. The physical world is without a doubt the least important part of worldbuilding.

>>7919357
>Westeros is Great Britain turned upside down
Great Britain has vast expanses of Tundra in its southern reaches, anda mediterranean not!Spain country in its far north?
Or are you just saying that because it's a similar vague shape if you squint your eyes really hard, with jagged coastlines and cold, rocky highlands in the bulk of its middle-area.?

>>7920042
>The world was lazily created and it shows.
But how so? You keep just reiterating that it's shit.
Logical conclusions can be drawn that suggest you're simply shitposting for the sake of contrarianism.

>this bait thread again

>>7921070
Be prepared for the laziest, illogical and impossible explanation of all.

>>7918848
Everything is correct except for
>world-building is excellent
>Retarded Malformed Mongol stereotype Dothraki
>Fake Viking Ironborn
>Shit-tier Ghiscari
>Mary Sue Braavosi
>Dorne wank

Essos is nothing but orientalist garbage, and parts of Westeros are no better.

>>7918848
>Grrm doesn't write pretentiously
>write pretentiously

Correct person coming through, people praise this shit for its sense of vastness, and yes, the worldbuilding. It's really cosy to go deep into a fantasy world and have whole chapters where characters have in-depth, complex political discussions that the reader can follow. Yes, the writing is nothing special, but that's not really the point, the books try and build up a world in your head, and its the detailed richness of that world that people like about it.

>>7917473
He did the classic fantasy fuck up of introducing magic which breaks the setting. Its gotten to the point where any character might be magically pretending to be another, nothing we read can reasonably be believed and quite honestly no pay off is worth slogging through the rest of whatever he puts out.

>>7919724
A wizard did it.

But GRRM does a ton of this shit. Like having a feudal economy, with feudal levels of agriculture supporting multiple cities of nearly a million people. Which is completely fucking impossible, you need an empire (Think Rome, Byzantium) to support just ONE city that size, and often that was at these civilizations peak.

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>>7921257
You're right, these look nothing alike at all!!!11!!

>>7921262
The creatures are uninspired and boring. Dragons. Oh boy. Dire wolves of which 1 lives for a substantial amount of time. Fucking lame.

There are so many characters, Martin himself can't keep track of them all. Then he'll kill them off before they get anything similar to character development.

Nothing really changes, No one learns anything, and there's no pay off at all through the series. Utter Shite.

>>7922133
>Dire wolves of which 1 lives for a substantial amount of time.

Ghost (Jon Snow) and Summer (Bran Stark) are alive. Shaggydog (Rickon Stark) is claimed to be. No evidence Nymeria (Arya Stark) is dead.

>>7922250
Big wolves. How magical and interesting.

>>7917473
what you have to realize it that it is far ahead of 99% of fantasy

>>7922261

First, we've only just begun to get a proper look at the far North. We really don't know what the eventual place or significance of those wolves will prove to be. Perhaps you will turn out to be right, and they will be fairly uninteresting. Perhaps not.

Second, Martin's world may prove to be more about characters and cultures than creatures. So to a degree you might be complaining that he hasn't written the book you would like him to have.

Third, dragons and wolves are two of the big beasts in European legend (which is why they also figure in Tolkien, for instance); and Martin's world is unambiguously modelled in significant part on the European Middle Ages. Your criticism on this point really amounts to saying you don't enjoy the cultural background. That's fine, but it's not the author's fault.

Fourth, Martin's massive cast and plot points are also modelled on history, rather than myth or legend. It is fantasy as ensemble drama with intersecting storylines (think Robert Altman). This is one reason there are no tidy conclusions and easy "pay off[s]" - though again, we haven't seen the end of the series. It's also why there are few moral clarities: real, historical people make bad decisions and mistakes, do things for reasons of personal belief or allegiance, and act in ways that ultimately work against them or their interests. I think that's what Martin's trying to achieve.

None of this means Martin's work is flawless; or that one has to like it. But it's a little unfair to criticize a work for not being the kind of fiction, or the kind of subgenre, one would prefer.

>>7922280
if by "ahead" you mean "a century behind" then yes.

>>7922406
Honestly, I don't even think he does what you're claiming he attempts very well.

Why have we only begun to learn about the far north after 5 books? Why does it take him that long after teasing it in the prologue of the first one. My theory is he doesn't have things in the North fleshed out yet.

If Martin's world is about characters, he does a terrible job with it. I'm not a dumb person, but I can't keep track of his flood of characters and apparently he can't either from how fast he kills them.

I'm less concerned about the "cultural background" than I am about him actually doing something with it. It feels unoriginal and played out. All of it

I'll have to do more research about Martin pulling on history. That actually sounds really interesting. I doubt he does it very well, but it would explain a lot about his writing. I honestly doubt he'll ever finish it when he can just coast off of his money so far and let other writers fix his story in the TV show.

People who have read this and The Malazan Books of the Fallen, comparison? My friend thinks GoT is a superior version of the "genre" (whatever you'd call it), but from watching the GoT show that doesn't seem true to me.

>>7922481

The TV adaptation does some things well, and some changes produce great scenes (esp. between Maisie Williams and Charles Dance for instance). But it vastly simplifies some things (e. g., the process and politics of electing the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch), foregrounds sex and nudity in a way the books don't, flattens the cultural texture (esp. with Dorne, which is not patrilineal in the books, and has a female heir apparent, making Myrcella's being there have a different political importance), and makes some changes - sometimes because of cutting supporting characters, which it does a LOT - that don't make a lot of sense (e. g., arch-schemer Petyr Baelish doing things openly himself in broad daylight).

You might well find you don't like ASOIAF, or think in inferior to Malazan, but don't take the series as a reliable guide to the books.

>>7922426
>If Martin's world is about characters, he does a terrible job with it. I'm not a dumb person, but I can't keep track of his flood of characters and apparently he can't either from how fast he kills them.

Again, the deaths of characters seem to me part of the reflection of history. In real ancient and mediaeval and early modern history, with warfare and political change, disease, sometimes tenuous food supply, and a lack of modern communications, transportation, and technology, prominent people could and did die, get killed (in war, judicially, or by assassination), and fall from grace pretty easily, often with consequences for those associated with them. Hilary Mantel's Wolf Hall is a fictionalized representation of this in Tudor times.

But I didn't only mean that. What I meant was also the range of character types, and the depiction of their inner lives. So we get their beliefs (which they or we sometimes learn are mistaken), opinions, motives, contradictions, and psychology, in addition to their actions. Martin seems to me much more interested in this than in creature-making.

>>7920042
> Metro 2033

Can confirm, good book.

>>7921044
>makes fantasy series with the intention of having magic only play a small roll
>"Hey GRRM, how does food grow in a world with seasons like this"
>"Uhhhh....magic!"
Bravo

>>7922815
>makes fantasy series with the intention of having magic only play a small roll
The whole point of the series is that it's an inverse of the trope that magic is leaving the world, like you see in Lord of the Rings. In ASOIAF, magic is returning to the world, for example, the looming threat of the White Walkers, and most people refuse to believe it.

>>7922859
>for example, the looming threat of the White Walkers

Yes. And dragons, direwolves, greenseers, Thoros' resurrections, ...

>>7917502
Your argument is literally "It's shot because I'm shit."

>>7921684
>multiple cities of nearly a million people.

U wot m8

The largest city in Westeros is King's Landing which has 500,000 inhabitants. They are almost always starving and/or underfed, and are wholly dependent on The Reach for supplies.

As for other large sized cities, I'll give you Volantis, although they do have an empire of sorts to support themselves.

>>7922610
I'm surprised at the amount of philosophy in it. It's turning out to be much better than the video game.

>>7922859
The problem with this is that LoTR is also shit.

>>7923267
Ayy lmao