>>7869333 > Talking the bait to an alleged New Sun

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>>7880746

I call this the Brandon Sanderson effect.

The first book in every one of his series are sober introductions to the world. He presents the separate threads of different characters, and then slowly winds them together into what will appear to be a compelling story. Every setting is unique and interesting in it's own way, with their own little twists on magic systems. He's a great worldbuilder, and really draws your interest into it.

Then, in the second book, he reveals that the whole thing was just an anime crossover fanfiction all along. Har har, good one Brandon! You got me again!

Stormlight Archive was absolutely the fucking worst in this. I thought the first book was fantastic. The last section of the second book completely ruined the series for me. One moment, we're running along at a normal pace through a lovely world with interesting characters, next minute

>TALKING SOUL EATER WEAPONS LOL
>KALADIN IS ACTUALLY GOKU LOL, LETS GIVE HIM A SUPER SAIYAN FIGHT
>THE KNIGHTS RADIANT ARE ACTUALLY POWER RANGERS AND THE STORMFATHER IS ZORDON, LOL
>I KNOW YOU HATE HIM BUT SZETH ISN'T ACTUALLY DEAD, LOL. HE'S ACTUALLY AN EVIL SUPERNATURAL COP NOW! WATCH HIM GET INTO CRAZY ANTICS WITH HIS PARTNER, EVILDUDE MCDONGLOVER!
>OH, YOU MIGHT HAVE MISSED IT, BUT I JUST KILLED THE MAIN VILLAIN OF THE LAST BOOK AND A HALF IN ONE SCENE! LOL!
>REMEMBER THAT CUTE PAINTER GIRL YOU PROBABLY HAD A CRUSH ON? SHE HAS PTSD AND A GIANT SWORD, LOL! I LOVE LITTLE GIRLS WITH BIG SWORDS, DON'T YOU?
>LET'S JUST MAKE ALL OF THE MAIN CHARACTERS POWER RANGERS, LOL, WOULDN'T WANT ANYONE FEELING LEFT OUT. TALKING SWORDS FOR EVERYONE!
>REMEMBER THOSE COOL MOUNTAIN DOJOS FROM DRAGONBALL? LET'S JUST THROW ONE OF THOSE IN THERE.
>ALSO, IT'S BASICALLY SET IN THE WORLD OF WARCRAFT UNIVERSE, LOL. SORRY IF I DIDN'T MENTION THAT BEFORE!

Look at that face. Tell me you wouldn't punch that face if you saw it.

>>7882080
I'm glad I never read him. I'm generally distrustful of series longer than War and Peace because I believe the author has nothing meaningful left to say after a certain number of pages in a single work.

>>7882082
The Blade Itself is a pretty terrible novel, I can hypothetically see why you'd like the first few WoT. At least it has some kind of warhammer type of quality with lots of info on fictional worlds.

>Har har, good one Brandon! You got me again!
lol'd

>Look at that face. Tell me you wouldn't punch that face if you saw it.
The only reason I didn't even bother downloading his books was because of his face.

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>>7881132

>>7882129
I appear to have uploaded WIP version... It's still legible though, the first category is what you want.

>>7881241
Are you the same anon that keeps asking this? I always mention A Double Shadow by Frederick Turner, but I'm not gonna elaborate any more. I'd add it as a category to my list, but I don't have enough material.

>>7882082

Storybuilding, anon. I like characters, and I like good storytelling.

Joe Abercrombie is actually a strong writer. His lore wasn't that bad. Some of his characters were even okay at times - Glotka almost made the series tolerable. But it's some of the worst storybuilding and storytelling I've ever read. Utter steaming garbage.

Here's the thing about tragedy, anon. You start out with something pleasant. Idyllic. You set up the story, you set up the characters, you make the reader invest in them. You build up a feeling that something bad is going to happen. You build up to a climax. Just when you think the character is going to lose everything - ha! Just kidding. False alarm. The reader relaxes. The character's life continues plesantly. Then, boom, out of left field, tragedy takes them. The reader knew it was coming all along, but still it hurts.

The important aspect is not the tragedy itself, it's everything else. It's the buildup. Without the buildup, tragedy is meaningless. That's why we don't care much when we see tragic things happening on television or in the newspaper. There's no real context.

This is what Joe Abercrombie's idea of storytelling is.

Bit of a story. Tragedy. Tragedy. Death. Betrayal. Tragedy. Tragedy Tragedy. Betrayal. Death. This guy was evil all along. Death. Tragedy. Tragedy. Oh, did I mention this guy was evil all along too? Tragedy. Betrayal. Betrayal. Tragedy. Yep, so is this guy. Death. Tragedy. Tragedy.

That's not grimdark. It's not depressing. It's just bad.

Wheel of Time had it's slow bits, and I admit to skipping some of those parts, but as a whole I enjoyed it. I've read through it twice, actually. It's a great world with great characters, and Jordan does a great job at writing compelling storylines. This is actually me >>7882080

And despite my apparent distaste for Sanderson, I actually think he did a great job with the final book.

>>7882218
This is something I'm feeling with The Fifth Season. The bad shit that keeps happening is just getting monotonous. I'd be hard pressed to name a single happy event so far.

>>7882080
He looks like a lesbian aunt or women's studies teacher. The haircut, the plaid shirt, the delicate baby face, the boobs. Get rid of that stache and it wouldn't be hard to imagine her living in a trailer with some trashy younger woman.

Love his books though.

Is there any fantasy serie with a main character who is the only normal guy/girl of the group/universe?
A lot of bonus points if that character also has a very bubbly personality, social/extrovert/happy.

>>7882609
normal as in no super powers or super abilities.
Just an average for our world person.

>>7882053
I will lead to academic recognition of Wolfe, if I have to tear down those shit stained ivory towers myself ... I think that I would like to dismember the world with my hands, and recreate it in the image of the matachin tower. Full boot or half? Two apricots? For you, gender studies prof, the revolutionary. The scent that rises is no scent of roses.

>>7882737
Pretty bold claims

Wolfe is probably the most shilled shit author I've seen here 2bh. And you can always tell it's the same two guys.

>>7882814
3-4 but it's mostly me

>>7882080
I agree with most of your complaints, specially with the Kaladin is Goku one since it ruined everything, but
>cute painter girl you probably had a crush on
Absolutely shit taste
Book two makes her less boring but she is still as bland as most Sanderson's girls
Female Kandra from Mistborn era 2 is best girl though

>>7882814

Is that the one of the torturer and it's shadow or something?


I... couldn't finish it. I would just find myself suddenly at some point of the story with the realization I had no idea how I got there.

Sorry. Don't hurt me /lit/

>>7882609

Jim Butcher's Codex Alera comes to mind, for a basic epic fantasy

It's supposedly "The Roman Lost Legion" meets "Pokemon"

Genre Fiction is basically American anime so whats with these complaints

>>7882097

TBI is pretty mediocre and downtrodden, but Best Served Cold really pressed my jollies.

It was like, Kill Bill meets Fantasy Italy


Speaking of, any Scott Lynch fans up in here?

>>7883302
Pateitly waiting for Thorn of Emberlain

The last book had a slog but it also had its good points, its forgiveable

>>7883316

Cool. I'm a bit of a sucker, for whatch'ya call the "Guile Hero" or the fantasy con man / trickster, but I'm always running short on those.

>>7883291

I don't know if I could recommend Codex Alera, it's pretty painful reading.

Jim Butcher has good pacing and pretty good worldbuilding, but he's an extremely bad writer.

It was tolerable in the Dresden Files because he could copy the culty noir style from other authors, but in CA it's just his writing left out to dry.

Then again I made it through all the books, so who knows.

Can anyone recommend me any of the following:

>magical realism centered around a mystery (think Twin Peaks, maybe to a lesser extent True Detective even though it's ambiguous if there's magic in there at all)
>space opera with lots of different interesting alien races; think if Star Trek were books and didn't have to make all the aliens just humans in costumes
>fantasy that's epic in scope like GRRM and Bakker, that isn't Abercrombie
>fantasy centered around a badass heroine that isn't just men being sexist and her killing them over and over (I don't care if it happens; I just don't want it to be tedious)

Asking again fot non-trash steampunk

>>7883986
>>space opera with lots of different interesting alien races; think if Star Trek were books and didn't have to make all the aliens just humans in costumes
The Pride of Chanur by C. J. Cherryh

>>7883291
I love codec alrea.

Well Jim butcher in general.

>>7883986
>epic fantasy
The Way of Kings or Malazan Book of the Fallen

I don't know of any for the other requests since they're very specific. There were some recommendations for fantasy with strong females in the previous thread if that's still up.

>>7883407
World Building. Check.
Pacing Check.
puns check
character building check.
Where is he bad?

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>>7881252
Dunno man, how hard is it to find a non-pornographic story that is specifically about dicks?

>>7883288
Whenever I attempted, I would discover I already had some presentiment of my future.

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>>7882129
>>7882133
you can add this to alien relationships

typical story where dude wakes up in the future to find shit all fucked up

the book isn't great, but the villain is an enormous, evil tree spanning thousands of miles, so that was pretty cool

>>7883986
Haruki Murakami is your go to for the first one. Try A Wild Sheep Chase

>>7884159
Prose. Coherence. Good characterisation.

Finished On Blue Waters, it was a joy to read. Now reading The Golden Age and it's pretty solid fun sf.

>>7884755
So basically the most fundamental requirements for quality literature?

>What are you reading right now?
Foundation and Empire. I thought that these books were about robots but I suppose that's Asimov's influence bleeding in to my ignorant mind since I haven't read Asimov beforehand.

>>7883291
It's very bad. He wrote the series due to a bet, and it shows. All characters are two-dimensional and the MC is practically a Gary Stu on his own. I don't know if he can be considered Kvothe-level but everything goes his way and he is always right in the land of Black and White that Codex Alera takes place in.

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>>7883299
This is the funniest thing I've ever read on /lit/.

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Can y'all give me some insight about the general plot of my book? I'm already 30k words in, many chapters which will undoubtedly be merged together at a later date, a lot of unfinished stuff but the story is largely complete. I always wanted to make it a trilogy but it would force me to split a great story into two parts which I'm not a fan of. Better 2 huge books than 1 huge book and a two part last book. Also I'm not english so bear with me darn it.

We have the world of X (I actually have the names for everything but I won't ever reveal them until I'm finished) which is a beautiful and lush world, in the words of its self imposed ruler. Although you don't find out until late into the book (sometime at the end of book one with a more detailed, larger plot in book 2), this ruler is actually an alien creature that crashed into this planet some years ago. It possessed powerful tech so it quickly enslaved the local populace. Its mission was to colonize this newly found world with embryos to assure the survival of his homeworld's inhabitants. But these embryos, now grown men and women, were growing ill and unfit to live on this new world, so their ruler created sort of a utopian land sustained by alien tech where they live shielded from the outside world who wants to harm them.
There are a few main characters, some more important than others of course. MC1 is a planet native, a magic user (not actually magic but we'll just call it that for now). The effects of the space ship crashing into the planet altered the inhabitants, mutated them (some in terrible ways) but the most common mutation is that some individuals can fly .... but only when directly above water or in close proximity to water. He infiltrated at the beginning of the book into the aliens' utopian city in search of his sister who disappeared a few days prior to where we start.
MC2 is an alien who is meant to be the next ruler (the actual ruler did experiments and shit, created hybrids so that one of them can take his place one day) but he doesn't know it and we also don't know it until towards the middle of the book, when things start to unravel. He gets in contact with MC1's sister and she seduces him, teaches him about the outside world and tries to make him leave the utopian city to her own ends which we have no clue of.
It's revealed that the ruler is MC2's father / mother (the ruler is a hermaphrodite alien thing that bonded with many off-world, unique creatures to create the perfect being to rule) and in the book 2 we deal with the larger plot of why the ruler left his planet in the first place. No, it's not a shitty swarm thing meant to devour the whole universe planet by planet.

God damn, I wish I hadn't revealed so much but I doubt an anon here will just steal it, write a good story based off such limited info and publish it before I do. What do you guys think?

>>7885796
Well that was deleted quickly.
It's really quite generic in terms of setting and plot, it's not something I, or anyone else, would steal.
It doesn't sound like something I'd read, but you probably could publish it, after all I've read books that sold millions that are barely readable.
The way to write a good novel is to have a theme and to explore it, or keep it simple and have a nice adventure.
If you have well written characters and a theme to explore it should be decent. If you didn't focus on those two things it's going to fail miserably.

>>7885827
Many typos, I reposted just above ya

>>7882053
>What are you reading right now?
A kindle collection of R.A. Lafferty's short fiction. I want to get his Centipede Press collections but fuck me are they expensive and the first two volumes already sold out.

>If a Wolfe novel was adapted how much of a massacre would it be?
It depends on who directed it and what material they were working with. There are certain Wolfe works which simply wouldn't work based on their content and complexity along (BotNS is the prime example). Some of his stuff could translate well into a film medium but it would take a VERY skilled director and an amazing script to pull it off. Peace would be fantastic if done right. You could probably make a decent adaptation of 5HoC and a lot of his short fiction would make a great premise for a film (The Island of Doctor Death and other Stories, The Death of Doctor Island, Seven American Nights, etc.). Some of is more recent novels could adapt relatively well. The Land Across, A Borrowed Man, An Evil Guest...though I'd be worried that it would end up being adapted into something resembling more of a Stephen King novel than a Wolfe novel.

On a side note, a Peace adaptation with Jeff Nichols directing would be something worth seeing.

>Would it lead to academic recognition of Wolfe is done properly?
Probably. Look at what No Country for Old Men did for McCarthy. Exposure in a more mainstream medium would undoubtedly lead to more criticism. The challenge would lie in making sure the adaptation is done well. A shitty adaptation won't do anything for Wolfe, as it would be both a commercial and critical failure and would lead to the adaptation being largely ignored or discarded and, by extension, Wolfe being ignored further.

At the end of the day, only time will be the ultimate judge of Wolfe and so far it's looking up for him. He received a great article in the New Yorker last year, he has extremely popular writers like Gaiman, LeGuin, and GURRM singing his praises at every turn, and is generally becoming more widely known among mainstream scholastic and literary circles. He is very much in the same spot writers like Pynchon and McCarthy were some 10-15 years ago (I'm an old fag so I can remember that far back); widely praised among a small but influential cabal and starting to be taken more seriously on a larger level.

>>7885077

Also reading Foundation and Empire. I find it more gripping than Foundation so far, I'm past a couple chapters where Magnifico plays the horn, had to actually look up and see if it influenced Futurama and I was right.

>start reading Murakami
>suddenly my childhood dream of writing fantasy is revitalized
>have shit I have to do in order to not starve
FUCK

>>7886001
>Murakami
>Fantasy
Which one are you reading?

>>7886010
A Wild Sheep Chase. Gonna read Hard-boiled Wonderland and the End of the World next. Both have some fantasy elements.

>>7886017
I'm actually reading Wonderland right now. It's alright so far, but I preferred Norwegian Wood and Kafka on the Shore. You might want to consider Dance Dance Dancer after Sheep, it's a sequel.

>>7886057
Oh, cool. Thanks for the tip. I'm loving Sheep, but it's my first Murakami book and aside from disagreeing with the narrator about a few things, I feel like I'm very similar to him.

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>>7885819
Already on my way to get my version published! Thanks for the story idea, shmuck.

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>tfw submitted a short story to Tor.com in the last few weeks before they closed to unsolicited submissions
>tfw it's been "In Progress" for months

>>7882129
Why is 'Magus Rex' censored?

>>7886136
No problem, Chuck Tingle.

>>7885819
Are you including any science in it? Are you going for a pulp feel or do you just watch anime?

>>7885863
>A kindle collection of R.A. Lafferty's short fiction

The Man Who Talled Tales? Did you grab it from books of sand before they took it down?

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>>7886505
>mfw chuck tingle is actually a better writer than any of the tryhard wannabe authors on /lit/

>>7886521

No it's just called the R.A. Lafferty fantastic Megapack. It's got 18 short stories for .99$.

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>>7886478
I accidentally uploaded a WIP test image. Stuff got mangled when I exported it, there shouldn't be any black boxes. I didn't bother uploading the fixed version since I've posted it before.

Incidentally, I picked up Magus Rex entirely due to the cover. I bought a stack of comic books once, to explore the medium, and got one that used that cover image. The content was, sadly, unrelated.

>>7884743
At the moment, this list only contains books I've read personally. It sounds fun, so I will look for it.
I wouldn't mind working on a collaborative list like this, but I haven't seen much interest.

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>>7886514
I'm loosely inspired by both Wolfe's New Sun and Brandon Sanderson's magic systems, which means there will be consistency in the world. The science will be as hard as any reader would expect. I'm not writing a PhD thesis but I'm not writing cool explosions and edgy moody characters for the sake of being flashy either, and I try to be as realistic and consistent (within the world, which is carefully built) as possible. I've been working on this for over 3 years and did on and off world building for even longer than that.
The plot is as thick as it must be. Of course resuming everything a 300k word book(s) in a post will make everything look shallow, but then again that's what happens when you do it on any book, classic, good or bad.
It'll likely take another 3 years to complete it all and edit everything by myself first and foremost. It's not like I'm rushing, but I do put a lot of work and thought into this project of mine. Right now I have 30-35k words of hard genuine text, and maybe a couple hundred thousand of drafts and unedited chapters scattered all around my working laptop which I take everywhere. It's tedious work but I'm getting there anon. I'm blessed to have an easy job in which I work on my book 6 hours out of 8, then another few hours at home. There's weeks that I don't do any progress, and days when I write some 2k words in a go without blinking.

>>7886646
>MC is the chosen one
>horrific identity of totalitarian overlord is a closely kept secret
>"magic" system
>dangerous outer world, conflict between freedom/danger and enslavement/security
Nothing there to steal to be honest. I'm sure what you've got is much better than this, but it is, like the other anon mentioned, not that original-sounding.

Now if the humans knew the alien overlord was a horrific alien that did horrific experiments on them, and loved him anyway, that would be something. If he had given them the power to overthrow them and they simply chose not to use it, that sort of thing. Just an example of ground that has been tread less often.

And I'm not saying unoriginal is bad. If you make it a real gee-whiz bam-pow adventure I would pay money to read it, even if it's all been done before. But there's a very common theme in post-WWII popular literature to have a Hitler analogue with a powerful propaganda machine, just due to the massive counter-Nazi propaganda the Allies pumped out.

>>7886514
Forgot to add, I'm going for a genuine adventure kind of feel in which we explore this new planet as we go. I want to have my readers scratch their heads in confusion, then go A-ha! some pages later when they'll (hopefully) figure out the in-built puzzle. I said, more like spoiled, that the Ruler is MC2's mother/father but I must insist that it's never actually stated in the book. It's at most implied that they have a connection and only by picking certain clues throughout the whole first book, such as a certain remark somewhere, a symbol or maybe a conversation that seems random at first, or a piece of scenery, things like that. And then this ruler finally makes an appearance you'll be more focused on his magnificence and the impact his presence has more than thinking that he's MC2's parent. It's just few of the things present in the book.

Oi, it's pretty darn hard to speak about the intricacies in the book in a couple of posts.

>>7886668
I see, you're trying to craft an experience where the reader discovers these things, trying to give the things more value from the chase.

I hope you've got talent.

>>7886664
>>7886664
>MC is the chosen one
See, it's another one of those things that seem shallow on the surface. It probably still is, but the MC is not the chosen one. I said that because I know about him and what character he is, but he is rather one of the many. MANY that could potentially be the chosen ones.

>horrific identity of totalitarian overlord is a closely kept secret
Well, the natives know that he's not of this world. Hell he crashed on their planet in a space ship the size of a continent and permanently altered their world in a million ways. Also his people, the aliens, totally love him because he provides them more or less everything. You'd hate the bastard if he crashed his car into your house and proceed to occupy a room with his whole damn family. But still, this magic, his technology and the way the world changed assured that not everyone hates him. Some worship him, some hate him, some would totally join his utopian city of wonders.

>"magic" system
Just some of the changes within the natives' physiology. Some have it way worse. The ability to fly when directly above water is more like a blessing and it totally changed how ... basically anything in the world works right now.

>dangerous outer world, conflict between freedom/danger and enslavement/security
It's only dangerous if you've been living your whole live without the need to work for what you have, in a controlled sterile environment watched over by literally a living god. It's really not that bad once you adapt to it. Hell, none of us on /lit/ would probably survive a week 10 km outside the city borders on our own and we don't live on another planet.

>>7886722
>getting defensive at a critique
Yes, I'm sure if I read the whole thing I would get it. That's why you need to write it, and post the whole thing on Amazon for five bucks, or find an agent or whatever. Then I can give you a more in-depth response, but seriously, look at what I've got to work with.

>>7886737
I'm not getting defensive. I just get very intense when I'm talking about this book. I'm very proud of it and literally can't stop talking about it once I get the chance. Anyway thanks for showing a sliver of interest.

>>7886749
Good luck, man.

>finish Foundation and Empire
So why DOES the Mule call himself the Mule? I don't believe it would be some cheap reason like having an overly-large dick so big that he can't reproduce.

guys, are there any legitimately good vampire novels along the lines of Fevre Dream?

>>7888062
Because the same bizarre combination of genes that made him psychic and a genius made him sterile. He discusses this with the characters.

plebs

are there any fantasy series out there in the same vein as star wars? Not in the sense of mystical warrior priests and edgy dark lords in space, but as a fantasy world set in a futuristic/space opera environment.

Normally fantasy is either sword and sorcery or based in a particular time in Earth's history, but stories set in the future-or at least stories with spaceships and advanced computers-seem to all be science fiction.

>>7888364
Lord of Light, Book of the Long Sun

>>7888364
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_Earth_%28subgenre%29

>>7888364
Diana Wynne Jones.
>A Sudden Wild Magic, a spaceship full of slutty witches hops dimensions to corrupt a monastery
>Deep Secret, the heirs to an interdimensional Byzantine space empire are brought together at a SFF con in Bristol
>Archer's Goon has a spaceship in it

So how many genres will China Mieville write in before he's finished? Do you think he'll try and deconstruct cape comics?

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Would /lit/ read the novel that I'm writing?

It's set in a single tropical city-state and is about a mysterious plague (called the Moth Plague) which descends upon the aforementioned city-state for the duration of exactly one year. Its causes are unknown, and only a very rough understanding of its symptoms are able to be ascertained. Likewise, the reader is never told, although certain clues are scattered throughout the narrative.

The story is told from 6 differing points of view (so far have a temple prostitute, merchant who is impressed into slavery, an acolyte of the Ritualists, and a mercenary with the Iguana Corps), which serve to elucidate different aspects of the city's culture and social hierarchy as well as facilitate the plot. Each will eventually intertwine in key places. The point I guess is to create a polyphonic effect of different interlocking stories that carry similar themes (like Cloud Atlas in a way), and serve to deliver the principal theme of man vs. an uncaring nature, death/loss, etc. At least those are my (very lofty) ambitions.

Influences include Virinconium, City of Saints and Madmen, BotNS and LS, One Hundred Years of Solitude and other magical realist fiction. World flavor is heavily inspired by Hindu, Yoruba, and Chinese mythologies.

I've been cultivating this idea for forever and I think that it could work out very well if I strike the right balance between worldbuilding and character driven narrative. But I don't know. Any critiques or suggestions?

>>7888437
>deconstruction
What a fucking pleb you are
>>7888450
Actually sounds good. I'll say what I've said to the other anon, if you write your characters well, and that should absolutely always be the focus, develop a theme and if your prose is decent it's going to work. Maybe lessen the number of characters, I think 6 is too much for a normal size novel. Go for 2-3 and give them greater attention.

>>7888437
>Do you think he'll try and deconstruct cape comics?
Did he not already? Dial H for Hero or something?

>>7888450
Sounds great.

>>7888450
>Sounds great.
Just to expand on this - do a load of worldbuilding then try to make as little of it explicit as possible. Think the Southern Reach trilogy but without the two sequels that try to explain everything. Submerged iceberg method; it needs to be there and coherent but the reader should only be able to make guesses at it from the shadowy shapes it casts in the murk.

>>7888461
So he did.

>>7888456
I'm not the one who's saying it:
http://www.avclub.com/article/china-mieville-deconstructs-superhero-comics-in-th-93462
They're all plebs, I know.

>>7888470
Looks awful.
And the writers obviously never heard of surrealism and well non Tolkien non mainstream trash sff

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>>7888456
Thanks, will duly note. I think part of the reason it felt like such an immense undertaking was the number of characters, but I will see if I can do the same thing by reducing the number of POVs to 3 or 4. My problem so far has been I've done a lot of worldbuilding but haven't meshed out the characters enough yet, so I feel also like drawing 2-4 strongly defined characters will be much simpler than 6 (or 7, as I was originally planning).

>>7888469
Haven't read the Southern Reach trilogy yet, but duly noted. I definitely want to thrust the reader into the world with the characters (with their own sometimes alien motivations, especially in the case of the temple prostitute) serving as the only points of reference. But in a good way. Also trying to make magic something truly awe-inspiring, enigmatic and powerful, not a science like in Sanderson.

Again, thanks for the feedback.

>>7888146

I know it's

>Stephen King

But I thought Salems Lot was not bad at all.

>>7888450
Iguanas have hemipenes, which should be a req for your corps btw

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>>7882053

>>7883986
>fantasy centered around a badass heroine that isn't just men being sexist and her killing them over and over (I don't care if it happens; I just don't want it to be tedious)
God's War by Kameron Hurley

>>7888784
Jesus Christ I'll claw my eyes out

>>7888784
Is this that Keely faggot from goodreads who used to post here?

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>>7888784

>Lynch in Great
>Abercrombie in Good
>Wolfe and LeGuin in Meh
>Harry Potter above Tolkien

>>7888898
All of those are reasonable except the Potter one.

>>7888926
First Law is quite awful, Wolfe and Tolkien are gorgeous religious authors with layers upon layers of beauty, Le Guin is certainly not meh, I'm not a huge fan but it's hard to deny she wrote good novels.
All in all, fuck off Keely

>>7886640
Well, that's fair enough, I've added all of those to my list, no doubt I'll be hard pressed to actually find most of them.

>>7888933
>First Law is quite awful
Stopped reading. You have shit taste.

>>7888062
Why on earth would you jump to that conclusion?

>>7889034
Anyone who thinks that a novel which has at best simple and two note characters and usually caricatures, prose worse than a child's which makes seem Martin like Melville in comparison, which has a total lack of imagination and literally doesn't have descriptions of things that aren't related to conversation has shit taste.
I can't see how anyone can read it and find it good in any respect, aside maybe being mildly entertaining.

>>7888784
I don't agree with most of this list (>Zelazny not in great; >LeGuin not in favorites; >Mieville not in great; >Abercrombie not in fine) but it's very nicely formatted. What did you use to make it?

>>7889032
Just to clarify, because I did a terrible job, these aren't recommendations so much as whimsically (or just randomly) chosen categories. I'm >>7880031 so I read a lot of trashy SFF.
Cherryh is my idol, and the Stainless Steel Rat books are great. Operation Misfit is nigh unreadable. Soulstring I was unable to appreciate.

>>7888175
Ah okay. That must occur in Second Foundation which I'm only a few pages into.

Since that list came up, I'm curious. How does your top 5/10 favorite list look like /sffg/?

>>7889324

Well I'm an absolute pleb but as far as /ssf/ goes my list is like this

>LOTR
>The Iron Dragon's Daughter
>Dune
>BOTNS
>Earthsea

All widely known except the second one which I heartily recommend to anyone who likes interesting settings.

>>7889324
Only sff or in general?

>>7889409
It's interesting that you like BOTNS. I'm a pleb myself and I was kind of afraid of starting that because I usually don't like those le 10 layers of deepness super dense stuff. Is the surface plot engaging enough?

>>7889416
SFF

>>7889422
>Is the surface plot engaging enough?

Yes it is. I caught next to nothing on my first read beyond the very very obvious Catholic imagery and that was mainly because I was raised catholic myself. But even on a very superficial level, the prose is beautiful and Severian's various adventures are engaging.

After finishing it I read up on the various theories and I realized how much stuff I missed, I probably need to reread it some day.

>>7889422
In no particular order, except New Sun being the absolute king, so,
Book of the New Sun
The Wizard Knight
A Scanner Darkly
Man in the High Castle
Lord of Light
Silmarillion
Children of Hurin
Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser

Novels which are definitely good, but I didn't find as engaging were Titus Groan, Elric of Melbourne, Lovecraft stuff which is really hit or miss (a colour out of space being the best one, but all being quite similar, because the main theme is fear of niggers), Left Hand of Darkness.
I could be forgetting something.

>>7889467

>Elric of Melbourne

keks

I read the first three Corum books and thought they were quite good, is Elric better? Corum met him and he seemed kind of an edgemaster.

Also I am beginning Left Hand Of Darkness myself, what am I in for?

>>7889494
I've read 3 of them, first two and a random one I got my hands on. It's edgy as fuck, but it's the fun kind of edge because it's not pretending to be deep. The first novel was also my best because it's the most straightforward, which is necessary for a good sword and sorcery story.
Left Hand is basically a personaless narrator going through a fictional world and exploring their society of gender benders. So if you are interested is something of that type you'll like it. It's a decent novel, but frankly I expected more.

>>7889512
Lots of people praise Left Hand but Dispossessed blows it away in my opinion. My top three Le Guin are Dispossessed, City of Illusion, and Lathe of Heaven, with the first three Earthsea right under that.

>>7889324

In no particular order:

>BotNS
>LotR
>Gormenghast
>The Worm Ouroboros
>Complete Conan Stories
>The Gods of Pegana (Including all the supplementary works)
>UBIK
>Phantases (For the maximum MacDonald comfy feels)
>Lord of Light
>Narnia (Too comfy to exclude)
>

>>7889530
I didn't read any more from her aside Left Hand.
>>7889549
How's Worm? It isn't discussed much here.

>>7889606
>How's Worm? It isn't discussed much here.

It's amazing if you can handle the dense archaic prose style of the text itself. It tries to emulate old epics like The Odyssey and Beowulf, so there's a fuck ton of parataxes and old archaic words. I personally love it, but it can be jarring and off putting to others. The prose really is amazing. Probably some of the best you'll read in SFF.

It's pretty based...give it a shot. I think you can get it on kindle for like $2.00. Plus someone might have a link to a .pdf or .mobi.

>>7889617
Torrentz exist, buying a kindl and paying for books written a century ago is paradoxical.

>>7889512
>>7889530
Disposessed is her best novel. I would go

Dispossessed > Earthsea at its best > Left Hand of Darkness > The Word for World is Forest > Planet of Exile/City of Illusions/Rocannon's World

>>7889678
Is WFWIF that good? It wasn't written after her feminist epiphany but the summary makes it look like FernGully.

>>7889324
Limiting myself to one work per author (for no particular reason other than that it lets me recommend more varied stuff)

1. Le Guin - The Dispossessed
2. Wolfe - The Fifth Head of Cerberus
3. Chiang - Stories of Your Life and Others
4. Mieville - The City and the City
5. Dick - The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch
6. Herbert - Dune
7. Robinson - 2312
8. Pullman - His Dark Materials
9. Rajaniemi - The Quantum Thief
10. Lem - Solaris

This is all assuming you can't call Pynchon or DeLillo sci-fi (I think you sorta can) or that you can't call Marquez or Rushdie fantasy (same).

>>7889705
You can, it's quite fluid what is and isn't fantasy

>>7889683
I like it but I'm a big Le Guin fanboy. It's very short (~100 pages in some printings) and, as you suggested, very much in the Fern Gully/Avatar mold. But it's well-written and a couple of the weird green monkey-creature characters are really memorable. It's actually much more brutal/violent/scorched-earth/I think realistic as far as what would happen in that situation than either of the G/PG-13 movie versions of the same kinda story.

I need lots of magical realism, preferably that gets dark as fuck, with a bittersweet or even happy ending that doesn't feel tacked on. Something that really digs into human suffering and shows humans emerging, maybe not unscathed, but at least alive and capable of healing.

Anything like that? The more the better.

>>7889802
Not that dark usually, but Murakami.

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>>7889802

>tfw you want to say New Sun but Wolfe has been so heavily shilled and memed the suggestion would carry no weight behind it even though it's exactly what he is looking for

>>7889802
Is this bait or you just want to hear the book of the New Sun

Anyone else already starting to get hyped for The Great Ordeal?

>>7889808
Already reading me some Murakami.
>>7889809
>>7889841
I didn't even know New Sun was magical realism. Interesting.

I know much of the genre is Central and South American. Anything besides Marquez worth reading in Spanish if I'm trying to improve my grasp of the language?

>>7889857
Borges

>>7889857
>I didn't even know New Sun was magical realism. Interesting.
Its Science Fiction...

>>7889857
That's because it isn't, it's the typical meme replies. Just put "Wolfe" and "New Sun" on filter.

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>>7889851
Yes. The last book ended on some really high notes

>the coffers
>just about everything with Sorweel
>that priestess lady who gives no fucks
>Kelmomas
>that one scene with Maithanet
>"Do you have your mother's bones?"

Thoughts on Powder Mage?

>>7882129
>tfw no forerunner gf

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>>7889864
It's science fantasy as described by Wolfe with main influences being Borges and Chesterton so do the math.
>>7889874
It's heavily influenced by Borges, many themes he wrote are elaborated upon.
>>7889809
Use the proper feels guy

>>7889802
Steelheart, B. Sanderson.

>>7889904
Why dont you learn what the genre is.

Gene Wolfe himself said that "magical realism" is just fantasy or scifi written by South Americans.

You're full of shit if you say BOTNS is magical realism when its very obviously not

>>7889913
>Why dont you learn what the genre is.
A fluid and relative term we use to describe the general gist of something
>Gene Wolfe himself said that "magical realism" is just fantasy or scifi written by South Americans.
So if it was in Spanish it would be magic realism
>You're full of shit if you say BOTNS is magical realism when its very obviously not
It's close enough for someone who wants something similar. I'm assuming he isn't interested in it being Spanish, but certain themes, imagery and atmosphere of strangeness.

>>7889925
>It's close enough for someone who wants something similar.

should've just said that then instead of placing the book in an entirely different label that dosent even wholly fit

>>7889886
Anime Napoleonic wars

Still a pretty fun read though. Taniel Two shot a best.

>>7889913
>Gene Wolfe himself said that "magical realism" is just fantasy or scifi written by South Americans.
By sloppy south americans who cannot into world building.

>>7889880
Maithanet had some great scenes that book.

I'm kinda sad to see the coffers end. All of Akkas scenes have been high octane in Aspect Emperor, hopefully that continues

>>7889945
Borges is pretty competent at that. Better than most world building novels. It's subtle and interesting because it's speculative and not autistic.

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>mfw reading Felicia day's reviews on goodreads

Kill me

Dress your hairs
This hat go well
Undress you to
Exculpate me by your brother's
She make the prude
Do you cut the hairs?
He has tost his all good "Nothing some money, nothing of Swiss
He eat to coaches
A take is better than two you shall have
The stone as roll not heap up not foamd

>>7889951
>speculative
Translation: He makes shit up and doesn't own it.

>>7890030
Why? Has she reviewed Wolfe?

>>7889757
Does it have any kind of moral ambiguity? Are the humans and their cause shown as sympathetic in any way?

>>7889802
Someone Comes To Town, Someone Leaves Town? It's not quite as saccharine as Doctorow's other books.

>>7890289
Actually yes, The Wizard Knight.

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>>7882053
>>What are you reading right now?
Pic related was unimpressive. Cthulid horrors seem rather less than terrifying when you're flying around in your tardis and frying them with a giant laser (occasionally backed by an armada of skyships).
>>If a Wolfe novel was adapted how much of a massacre would it be?
>>Would it lead to academic recognition of Wolfe is done properly?
Have yet to read le Wolfe

>>7890030

Started doing this to see if it was as bad as i though it would be.

>All those "5 Star books"
>Reviews are two sentence blurbs which boil down to, "Oh I loved this book! It's so awesome! Great story X-)
>Discounts Y: the Last Man because it's "Chauvanistic"
>5 Star review of her own book
>Review of The Wizard Knight is simply, "I TRIED."

Well at least she an admit she's full plebian.

>>7890317
>posting here
>not having read the most essential meme

>>7890336
>Well at least she an admit she's full plebian.
She and /lit/ is the perfect match. However, any progeny would be banned by the Geneva convention against biological warfare.

>>7890347
Wolfe being essential is the meme.

>>7890359
Wolfe being essential being a meme is a meme

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>/lit/'s SFF-general
>no one mentions Bakker
Nice job, guise!

>>7890412
Noice job telling us why we should care

>>7890347
My source only had book 2 of BotNS last time I looked, so I have no Wolfe. The descriptions of his work posted here are unappealing to me, but I'll read most anything SFF.

>>7890412
There's at least 3 posts about the master of rape, gay and incest in this very thread

What proof is there that Severian is an unreliable narrator? The topic came up in another thread, and while I've heard it before, I never noticed it when I read the book, and googling it there doesn't seem be very much behind it. Is this much more than fan-fiction driven on by imperfections or ambiguities on the part of the author? And even if Severian can be read as an unreliable narrator, does it accomplish anything? Does it change the story or how you would interpret in a meaningful way?

>>7889324
Maximum pleb incoming.

>Book of the New Sun
>The Way of Kings
>Hyperion
>Farseer
>Canticle for Leibowitz
>Lions of Al-Rassan
>Lies of Locke Lamora
>Small Gods
>The Illiad
>Use of Weapons

In some cases I just mentioned a single book in a series if I found that the rest of it doesn't measure up to that one novel.

>>7890490
You have good taste in my books. It's always good to see other people being able to enjoy Wolfe AND Sanderson, instead of shitting on one or the other.

>>7882053
>no proper thread subject

Something I STILL don't understand about the Dune appendices in the first book is: Why did that Fremen kill himself when Kynes told him to? There's no indication that he can use the Voice

>>7890482
>What proof is there that Severian is an unreliable narrator?
He for one admits it in Urth and generally either doesn't understand what's going on or is not being completely honest, For example he had sex with Thecla, most probably, he makes it seem in book two that Jolenta was completely ok with him fucking her, there are inconsistencies in the narrative.
>The topic came up in another thread, and while I've heard it before, I never noticed it when I read the book, and googling it there doesn't seem be very much behind it.
There's not that much to read, but Marc may be hanging around. Look up his videos on it too.
>Is this much more than fan-fiction driven on by imperfections or ambiguities on the part of the author? And even if Severian can be read as an unreliable narrator, does it accomplish anything?
It adds depth to Severian. It shows you how little he understands, how he feels shame for certain things, how he wants you to think him better than he is.
>Does it change the story or how you would interpret in a meaningful way?
Yes. He uses the subjectivity of Severian to weave a story which tells you that there is an objective Truth. He twists the post modern techniques to tell a classical story of redemption.

>>7890513
>He for one admits it in Urth
I think I remember that, now that you mention it. Or didn't he out-right say he lies or something at the end of the 2nd (4th) book.

I agree with Severian being unreliable as far as your points go, but I expected more to be honest. As you say, though, it does add depth.

>>7890552
Well it's not the main focus, Wolfe isn't there to decieve us for the heck of it in vain of Nabokov.
It's an element to the whole thing, but it gets mentioned often because it's uncommon in sff and should be kept in mind for him seeing things as Severian and not the Author or reader.

>>7889298
I got that from the covers, I love pulpy old nonsense though. I found a collection like that on ebay an hour or so drive away and it is tempting me.

>>7890296
Much more moral ambiguity than either Fern Gully or Avatar. The central moral figure is a human.

What's Gene "The Meme" Wolfe's easiest work to start with?

>>7891224
Fifth Head

Is there anything that can compete with Fevre Dream in terms of historical vampire horror?

>>7888437
I've wanted him to do a Regency Romance; he's a big Jane Eyre fan and apparently thinks it's really a horror story at heart.

>>7892010
He probably thinks every traditional romance is a horror story. What, does he see it from the crazy wife's perspective? Getting locked up in your house by the patriarchy while your husband finds a prettier... eh... younger woman, then maybe it's not her fault she died or something?

>>7892023
The wife is part of it - not so much her perspective, just that it's a very Gothic trope - but IIRC he gets creeped out by the scene where she's starving in the street and has to sell her gloves, like an evil economic force is trying to kill her. (Yeah, I know, but he's got the prose skillz to make it work.)

>>7892035
A window into the mind of a fanatic, I guess. I've only read Embassytown, and that seems to be relatively tame; at least I didn't pick up any of the politics. I tried to start Perdido Street Station but the long scene with the old guy and his bangin' young bughead girlfriend was tedious and I never picked it up again. I was shocked to find out he was not a creepy old dude that dated young filipinas.

>>7891903
Anita Blake ;-)

>>7892043
Yeah, his viewpoint's always a bit skewed, but never boring. PSS really picks up about a third of the way in, once the central monsters show up - the plot's fairly basic, but it's just the framework for him to come up with lots of weird creatures and bits of lore. I enjoyed it well enough, though it does have "first novel problems" like you describe. Last Days of New Paris looks pretty sweet too, whenever it finally comes out.

>>7892059
>it's just the framework for him to come up with lots of weird creatures and bits of lore.
That was actually my favorite thing about Anathem. I liked the Platonic spaceships thing, but the parts that stuck in my memory the longest were the monk interviewing the electrician about conditions in current culture and the part where they're traveling across the pole and they pass by the ruins of an industrial society under the ice.

>>7892071
Yeah, I keep meaning to get to that one - loose narrative with a lot of neat little ideas is just a Stephenson thing, Cryptonomicon and Quicksilver (only ones of his I've done so far) are both pretty much like that. He also seems to have this odd generational (?) mythos thing going on, where characters in different centuries have the same names - I think there's an Enoch Root who crosses over and various people called Waterhouse, do they turn up in Anathem too?

>>7892083
Quicksilver and the Baroque Cycle are prequels to Cryptonomicon. Enoch Root is immortal, you should have gotten that from Cryptonomicon.

Anathem is entirely secondary world, kind of an Earth where a nuclear apocalypse happened and history just went on for another three thousand years, with Canticle for Leibowitz-style monasteries set up to preserve knowledge in case it happens again. Really neat worldbuilding, the bland MC gets a lot of flak but I didn't mind him.

>>7892088
Hm, cool, definitely didn't catch that about Root. What are you supposed to read first to catch all the links?

(Also, I've just got intrigued and ordered Anathem, so thanks for that)

>>7892102
Shaftoe's chilling with Root in WWII then Waterhouse is in a cell with him in the 90s. Also Waterhouse calls him a wizard. I guess there are alternate explanations? He's the only shared character, though in Baroque Cycle the Waterhouses are also non-action thinkers and the Shaftoes are GI Joes. The economic stuff really was interesting, and I think Stephenson would be happy I picked up what he was laying down on that front, but Half-Cocked Jack's ten-year voyage around the world after a heist gone horribly wrong, leaving a trail of violence, severed Hooke fingers, and disappointed prostitutes, that was awesome. Like Forrest Gump in the late 1600s except with Jack Sparrow as the lead.

Seconding the Anathem recommendation. One of the best SF novels of recent years, doubling as an introduction to western philosophy.

>>7892112
*horribly right

>>7892114
In retrospect the main character would fit right into a Golden Age SF novel.

>>7890412
Delany is more essential and no-one mentioned him.

>>7892181
That's because most don't feel like reading about buttsex

>>7890030
I instantly ignore any review on goodreads that has a .gif in it, it seems to be the goodreads equiv of being a tripfag. In fact, most of the goodreads reviews are shit simply because the ones by the most popular authors and reviewers are at the top, and unfortunately it really does seem like tumblr and other sjw types are the vocal minority in play on the site.

What are the 2 best Sword and sorcery novels of all time?

>>7892426

Conan and Farfhd/Gray Mouser.

Honorable mention for Elric Of Melbourne.

>>7890412
Who hype for Unholy Consult?

Gonna be out in a few months. More rape, incest, and necrophilia.

>>7891224
The Wizard Knight

Don't read >>7891304 unless you're ready to start reading Book of the New Sun.

>>7892514
>>7892444
These are correct answers

>>7892512
>more sowheel getting cucked by an incestuos relationship
>more akka fugging his daughter on his road trip to dunyain
>more shapeshifting traps
>more kelmomas being a homicidal sociopath

I am unbelievably hyped for it.

>>7882080
What's the happiest fantasy?
Some novel where the whole main cast brings a smile to your face.

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Richard Morgan weighs in on writing in video games, the concept of gratuitous and finally eviscerates the whole pretense surrounding 'good' fiction, whether it's genre or not.

http://www.richardkmorgan.com/2016/04/gratuities-at-your-discretion-2/

Objections? Do you think he's simplifying the whole idea of style and substance, story and narrative?

>>7882129
Interesting

but are they any good? I find that collage on the verge of identity politics obsessive compulsive disorder.

>>7893221
I'm afraid I don't know what you mean.

>>7893209
>women getting gang raped in detail is not gratuitous
>spending three chapters having your main character get buttfucked by an alien elf is not gratuitous
Top fucking kek

>>7893285
But his argument consists of redefining the concept of gratuitous and rendering it futile when used by puritans. I didn't find gay fucking in his books to be exploitative, I'd say they were graphic and even passionate. At least his depictions were somewhat original albeit I don't read much fag fiction.

>>7893278
The emphasis is on women written by women for women as if that gives insight that's out of male experience in art. Or at least it can give that impression.

>>7882129

>The Right to Arm Bears

I need this in my life immediately.

>>7893302
I actually like his books as well. But if his point is that gratuitous scenes are not a bad thing, but are merely the result of attempting to achieve a desired element, shouldn't he just own up to it.

You can't just say I don't agree with your definition of a word and that makes it so. Rather he should own up to it, like he says at one point, instead of decrying the use of the word gratuitous in itself

>>7893304
Ah, yes... I formatted the list poorly. It is broken up into categories with that of female authors writing books with female main characters being merely the first.
>but are they any good?
>>7889298

>>7893323
I don't think he disagrees with the definition, he just starts using it as an umbrella term after the easy target - puritans is eviscerated. You really can't go on and compare Joyce to Chandler, or opera to Rihanna as if the enjoyment emanating from either/or is somehow the same ol' gratuitous fun.

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>>7893322
Heh, I only have the first book.

>>7893302
>his argument consists of redefining the concept
Not an argument.

>>7893451
Well the process of redefining is the argument in itself. He aims to examine the concept of gratuitous and show the complaint to be fallacious by nature.

>>7893455
>"With the story comes emotional context, pacing, a defined path from start to finish, sure – but all those things exist in service of the action."
>"What do you recall about the very first Star Wars movie? The story? Puh-leaze. "
>"Your faintly puritanical superior disdain – and the denial of human nature it stems from – is up way past its cultural bedtime."
>"Let’s face it, you’re not at a production of Lear or Othello or Macbeth to see how the story comes out."

>>7893520
Don't you love it when someone argues that you're denying human nature when you don't want angry sodomy, as if denying parts of human nature is not also human nature?

>>7893526
He's not arguing that. Did you fail to read the opening paragraphs about using 'gratuitous' as a way to shrug off content in various media?

>>7893520
He's right about Star Wars, it's a simplistic fairy tale in structure. As for the action part, judging games through gameplay is the only objective measurement we have. Literature is the only art form where writing is at the forefront; rest are visual or aural media.

>>7893520
>What do you recall about the very first Star Wars movie? The story? Puh-leaze.
I haven't seen the first Star wars movie in over five years. I'm thinking back to it now. The story is actually what I remember, yes, in addition to some set pieces but the story is definitely the most easy thing for me to recall.

>>7893545
>judging games through gameplay is the only objective measurement we have.
What? Right off the bat you would have to think of games like Fallout 1/2, Planescape Torment, and even modern games like The Walking Dead which are all judging primarily for their story and atmosphere rather than gameplay. And then you can even enter visual novel territory, which are both games and literature at once (potentially). You can't judge an entire medium by one standard.

>>7893566
I judge them through their shit of a gameplay. Even a choose your own adventure book is better than Torment because it has haptic feedback. You absolutely can judge an interactive medium through interaction and what is termed as TECHNOLOGY - regarding AI, destructible environment, neat stuff you can do with a game that doesn't devolve into picking a dialogue prompt or avoiding the gameplay through CHArisma. Best thing you can say about games you mentioned is that they qualify as interactive content.

>>7893520
>>"What do you recall about the very first Star Wars movie? The story? Puh-leaze. "

There are actually some very good scenes like Luke standing on the Tatooine horizon, the cantina & Han Solo's introduction, Vader vs that one officer, etc.

>>7893602
Sure, you CAN judge it entirely on their gameplay, but if you do you're an idiot.

>>7884054
Bumping my request

>>7893622
You should judge a video game PRIMARILY through gameplay.

>>7893631
>>7884054
I can only reccommend you League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Most people would probably say Difference Engine but I haven't read it and I think both writers to be hacks anyway.

>>7893644
You're stating your opinion as fact. I "should" judge a game as I think is just, not how you think I should.

>>7893654
It is an objective fact. Interactive medium is defined by interaction that is gameplay. Static dialogue prompts qualify, but let's not pretend they deserve a second glance.

>>7893662
No it's not. That's really where this discussion ends. You think things to be true that I do not. The end.

>>7893671
This isn't post structuralism 101, anon. There are rules.

>>7893691
Whatever rules may exist are certainly not those you're proposing.

>>7893701
>the main thing that the medium offers isn't what we should evaluate it on, but it's this thing it's actually really mediocre at best

I'm looking for something with some of the following elements:

- comfy
- well written and likable central characters
- either not a euro medieval setting, or a significant twist to it
- no or little focus on "human politics", more about the world and mysteries within

Bonus points for mythical influences. Anything comes to mind? It's fine if it doesn't include everything.

>>7893717
The Man Who Was Thursday sounds about right

>>7893713
What it "should" be evaluated on is up to individual experience, which work is being evaluated, and so on and so on. Video games are complex amalgam of many art forms, music, literature, visual art, and so on and so on, all in addition to gameplay. To judge a game entirely on the gameplay is of course one's prerogative and a valid school of thought - often, there is just gameplay and nothing else really to see. It is just my personal opinion that someone who judges video games *as a whole* on just one aspect is an idiot.

>>7893537
He literally argues that we are puritans denying human nature and we need to wake up because it's 2016. He also argues that "gratuitous" is meaningless because it's all gratuitous, yes.

>>7893631
Read Night in the Lonesome October. Oh, but that doesn't have gears glued to anything, does it?

>>7893740
I was looking for things that don't involve le gears so that sounds good.

>>7893717
Stormlight, man. Don't listen to the haters. Death Gate is pretty good for the first few books, surprisingly comfy for the subject matter. Robin McKinley does some neat twists on euro-medieval, and did a pair of books set in fantasy India too. Charles Saunders did African-themed fantasy that wasn't all muh racism, and I guess if we're going brown fantasy and you haven't read it already, the first three Earthsea books.

Oh yeah, Patricia C. Wrede's Frontier Magic trilogy. Magic on the American frontier, strong female protagonist that learns zoology instead of karate, it's all really slow-burning.

>>7893735
He's right on the first thing

>>7893743
Night in the Lonesome October is more of a Zelazny fantasia on Victorian literature (with Lovecraft thrown in because he fits in so well) than what I would call "steampunk." It is set in an age where steam is high tech and it is absolutely punky though.

>>7893602
I judge those games through a combination of those elements, like how well the gameplay interacts with the story. And I happen to be one of those 'gameplay first' people.

Some games separate their individual elements (gameplay, story, atmosphere, etc) enough for you effectively judge each element separately, think something like DMC. But others like Planescape merge the two together to such an extent that you can't consider any individual part without also considering the interplay with the whole.

Anything else would be the equivalent of only looking at the cinematography and framing when watching a film, because those are the only unique elements that dont already belong to other mediums. Or only considering prose in your judgment of a book.

>>7893761
Denying human nature is human nature. If you deny that, you are yourself denying human nature, and must be re-informed of the current year.

>>7893752
He explicitly asked for something "well written"

>>7893763
More than that - the action gameplay in PS:T isn't great, although a couple of spell animations are still awesome to look at, but that's not the gameplay the creators had in mind for you. The dialogue is the gameplay, how you're trying to balance your alignment, how you can't redeem the angel if you haven't proven yourself to be lawful and good the entire time.

>>7893769
>Earthsea is badly written
wew

>>7893763
>>7893781
comparing gameplay to cinematography and framing is nonsensical when video games already have that. people making them are called directors for a reason.

>>7893787
Stormlight is the first recommendation

>>7893725
Is that SFF? Doesn't look very magical.

>>7893752
SA is already on my radar, but I'm saving it for another time. Death Gate doesn't sound very comfy and I'm not really into niggers or Young Adult novels, but thanks.

>>7893803
Yeah, it's pretty comfy and borgesian. Not magical in the standard sense of the word.

>>7893803
>likes comfy
>doesn't like YA fantasy for bookish girls
I'm afraid I can't help you pham.

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Does anyone know the status of this book? It was supposed to be published in 2007 but was withdrawn from release indefinitely (I seem to remember Beagle had some legal issues with Conlan Press 'round the same time, so that probably had something to do with it). Is it ever coming out?

Also general Peter S. Beagle thoughts I guess.

>>7893851
I've heard terrific things about Last Unicorn. That's all I know.

>>7893851
"Legal issues" is putting it mildly, the guy who runs Conlan is a massive cunt who took advantage of Beagle's age and memory issues to screw him over contract-wise. Imagine anything published there is going to be held up until the lawsuit is over, he had one called Sweet Lightning that was supposed to be out in 2014 too. (More here if you're interested: http://fansagainstfraud.com/)

Reminder that this isn't literature and you should fuck off to a different board.

>>7894023
Reminder that we're doing you a favor by acting as a magnet for plebs :3

>>7894023
WHAT
Holy carp, guys, I had never thought of it before, but I guess supernatural and or speculative elements transform the written word into something that is not the written word! How could I have missed something so obvious?

Mods, delete this board.

So I'm reading Chronicles of the Unhewn Throne, and I have a quick question.

Are the protagonists fucking retarded? They all constantly make the absolute worst decisions about fucking everything. I've just started the third book, do they ever start not being idiots?

>>7894226
>not betraying your brother for the man who murdered your father and knocked you up.


I think I know who the real idiot is.

>>7894230
>Not also trying to kill your other brother while at it

Adare is retarded.

>>7894023
I read both SF/F and more traditionally literary fiction, and the recommendations you get from these threads are reliably better informed than the recs from the lit fic ones.

>>7894226
I don't know, the only character whose decisions I had no sympathy for was Adare. Yeah, the two brothers make stupid decisions but you can see where they come from and why they might make them.
Adare is supposed to be the politically savvy one or something, but just is an actual retard who lucks into her successes, which are really more il'Tornja's successes who has her wrapped around his finger from the beginning

>>7894316
Adare is really the most unlivable of the trio. Fuck her for getting the happy ending and fuck that rushed ending. I mad

>>7894352
Spoil me on just how stupid things get.

>>7894352
Oh god I haven't read the third book yet. The idea that Adare blunder's her way into a happy ending terrifies me

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>>7893662
> look mom I'm arguing that my opinions are objective again

>>7894389
Read the following at your own peril

Adare believes she can trust Il'tonja, and returns to rule the empire. Il'tonja betrays her, holds her son hostage to make her kill Pleasure. Kaden meets Pain, and through circumstances traps him in his mind like Pleasure is. Kaden and his whore gf FINALLY fuck, then kill themselves on top of the spire, returning the gods properly. Valyn kills Il'tonja, Adare gets her babby back and suffers no consequences for anything she did because she's perfect.

There a lot of stuff I cut out about the kettral but that was all pretty good.
I'm still fucking mad about everything else

>>7894446
Why the fuck any of them ever trusted any of the Cseetrim is beyond me.

>>7894448
It's something like cssestrim are such good manipulators, you can't help but end up getting played by them unless you kill them on sight

>>7894446
Wait so the entirety of the Csestriim plot began and ended with Il'Tornja trying to kill pain/pleasure to destroy or otherwise completely change humanity?

>>7894590
Basically. All the plots resolve themselves as simply as they can

>>7886722
Main plots are definitely important in a novel but it's the little nuances like what a character is thinking at a certain, specific point or how something is described that makes a work good. Plebs around here might call it prose but I can't fucking stand that word. Sorry I'm rambling. I'm fucking terrible at writing and describing shit. Gene Wolfe is good at what I'm trying say. I like his style a lot. ...and for Christ's sake don't alternate your main characters every chapter. That's extremely annoying.

>>7894969
Good characterization is what you mean, and I agree.

"Good prose" is meaningless on its own, the best prose always serves a function in context of the greater work, and that boils down to character.

>>7895199
What makes novels good doesn't boil down.

>>7895203
It's gonna go somewhere m8

>>7895209
All bad novels are alike in the same ways. All good novels are different.

>>7895199
Not quite.

"Good prose" refers to the quality of writing on a sentence-by-sentence level.

Most science fiction is written in clunky prose. Azimov and Philip K Dick would be two egregious examples among many.

In contrast, good SF prose stylists include Wolfe, Delany, and M. John Harrison.

SF is the literature of good ideas and not usually good writing.

Picture of Dorian Gray has great prose.
It's a nice example.

A good novel can have bad prose.
A good novel can have bad characters.
A good novel can have bad plot.
A good novel can have a bad setting.
A good novel can be poorly researched.
A good novel can be preachy.
A good novel can be repetitive.
But not all at once.

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>>7895221
>"Good prose" refers to the quality of writing on a sentence-by-sentence level.

And I just said what even makes up that good prose is the content itself. Just making your words pretty and poetic isnt good prose. What makes it good is its actual function within the story, how it aids the process beyond mere point-by-point description.

Azimov is so lacking because he's more interested in breaking down his ideas like a lecture instead of just showing it in action through his characters. They're just superficial props, so you feel more inclined to skip to the end so you can get to the big point. He's not making the full use of what prose can actually do.

On the other hand, look at Gene Wolfe and you see that he lets the story flow without any intrusions on his own part. In each work its always the characters doing their thing within the world, and you're along for the ride. He even emphasizes this point himself in his own writing tips. Pic related.

BONTS wouldn't be what it is without Severian's own condition of eidetic memory, his own personality and station at the time of writing. Same with Latro in the Mist and Wolfe's other stories. The character's very being is what allows the story to take the shape you see before you. Joyce and Faulkner practiced this as well, and so many others.

Putting this back to anon's point that I was addressing. You wont ever know how to put down all the subtle gestures of a character or a setting without knowing them well enough to actually do it. Good prose in the end all depends on your own knowledge of your characters, setting, and ultimately where your story is even going. Its the sum total of all your knowledge as the author.


>>7895220
Make things easier for yourself and stop seeing literature, or any art, as some mystical process. There's always knowledge and technique acting as the support of all good works. People don't just wake up as good writers.

damn, I'm starting to get bored of Soldier Of The Mist. I'm like half way through and everyone seems to just be wandering aimlessly.

Can someone recommend some other historical fantasy with comfy, uncomplicated prose?

>>7895309
Sinuhe The Egyptian, its not really fantasy but I think you'll enjoy it alot.

>>7895311
Maybe? There's a certain maximum amount of cultural distance in space and time I can put between myself and a character before I fail to connect to the whole shebang. At that point the story just seems... off.

I appreciate the recommendation at any rate

>>7895309
Wew pleb

>>7895348
I have my taste. It's not good, but I couldn't change it if I wanted to, which I do

>>7895309
Anything by Guy Gavriel Kay. Just pick one that has a setting you like.

I really, REALLY enjoyed Soldier of the Mist guys.

I'm keen to find a copy of Soldier of Arete.

>>7895648
https://mega.nz/#!Ng40CSwJ!BdjAiPwxWCqri9R74w0P6VliM7cDBcKwAvSoRlVAJUM

Here you go friend.

>>7895660
Thanks dude. Although I hope I can find a cheap copy of a book, I prefer books.

>>7895667
Wolfe doesn't have plentiful cheap copies unfortunately

>>7895708
Yeah, second hand I hope. I picked up a second hand Soldier of the Mist for $1 NZ which is like 50-70c US

>>7886558
Patting yourself on the back Chuck?

>>7895279
>Make things easier for yourself and stop seeing literature, or any art, as some mystical process. There's always knowledge and technique acting as the support of all good works.
It's not always the same knowledge and technique.

>>7890289
>Why? Has she reviewed Wolfe?
>Wolfe is the only author worth reading.

You fucking elitist have some in our general and you're turning it into a meme. A few months from now you will say Wolfe and Tolkien is the only thing to read. Like how our up-raised nose brethren only speak of IJ and Gravity's Rainbow.

>>7896151
It's literally just one guy meme spamming, to the point where newfriends believe him.

>>7896158
To the point Wolfe is a popular, widely read author here, thank you very much.

>>7895375
Why do you want to "change" your taste? Are you insecure enough that getting called pleb by people who are most likely illiterate teens in 4chan shakes your identity?

>>7896151
>Like how our up-raised nose brethren only speak of IJ and Gravity's Rainbow.
I have rarely seen a discussion about those on /lit/ that indicates the people talking read the books. It's meme spouting.

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>>7896151
This is your mom.

Post Lovecraftian shit that isn't written by Lovecraft

>>7897456
Book of the New Sun? It has distant space water monsters somewhere between Lovecraft and The Revelation.

>>7897462
I'm thinking of something with a bit more focus on it

>>7897465
Ashton Clarke Smith?

>>7897456
see
>>7890317

>>7897577
>unimpressive
Well I guess I didn't say "good"

>>7897590
It just wasn't my bag, but the author apparently does a lot of
>Lovecraftian shit that isn't written by Lovecraft

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>>7897456
Lovecraft is Hopehodgsonian.
And Hodgson is Poeian and Poe is Hoffmanian.

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Rogue One trailer got me wanting to read some fast-paced, pulpy military SF with a qt protag. Anything fit this description?

>>7898089
Lost Fleet.
Black Jack is qt, fight me.

also
>post-RotJ Star Wars
>Abrams-ere Star Wars
>Pulpy at all
Less dialogue with the pulps than modern fantasy has with Tolkien.

>>7898089
Honor Harrington maybe. I've never actually read any of them but people into that kind of stuff seem to like it.

>>7896151
>>7896151
Stop projecting your insecurities on the patricians you fucking pleb. Wolfe is the agreed upon pinnacle of sff. This has been established not only by /lit/, but by Wolfe's own peers as well as the critical circles which take sff seriously.

And most of us who love Wolfe love a ton of other great sff writers. You'll see a bunch of discussion about LeGuin, Delaney, Tolkien, Dan Simmons, PKD, Asimov, Herinlein, Lafferty, Peake, Dunsany, etc etc. These are all great writers regardless of genre. The problem most /lit/izens have with sff is that the majority of discussion and reading is centered around mediocre to sub par writers and works which are on par or below people like Steven King or Michael Chricton. People like Rothfuss, Jordan, GURRM, Sanderson, etc. Most of these people are just a step above your run of the mill YA trash. You don't see /lit/ singing the praises of Rowling; Meyer, or Collins so why the fuck would we enjoy mediocre sff?

Just finished Chronicles of the Unhewn Throne now, what a fucking shit show of a last book.

>>7898399
Calling Dan Simmons a great writer is an absurd delusion.

>>7898887
Agreed. Very rushed, very disappointed. Been a while since the finale of a trilogy fucked me that hard

>>7898925
First Law trilogy really fucked me over but in a way that was planned and designed to make you fucking angry. I just felt disappointed and annoyed that everyone was so goddamn stupid in Chronicles.

It's amazing how fast /lit/'s meme fantasy author changes. last month is was borges and now it's wolfe.

>>7898967
You sound like a meme expert. Who's next?

>I think it was Master Gurloes's intention that I should be brought to that house often, so I would not become too much attracted to Thecla. In actuality I permitted Roche to pocket the money and never went there again. The pain had been too pleasurable, the pleasure too painful; so that I feared that in time my mind would no longer be the thing I knew. Then too, before Roche and I had left the house, the white-haired man (catching my eye) had drawn from the bosom of his robe what I had at first thought was an icon but soon saw to be a golden vial in the shape of a phallus. He had smiled, and because there had been nothing but friendship in his smile it had frightened me.
What did he mean by this?

Reading through In Green's Jungles right now, is Krait's secret ever explicitly revealed, or is it something gained from careful reading?

>>7898089
The trailer got me sad because it looks like a YA run of the mill, but not like I expected better.
>>7899028
Only read the first one, I assume it's kept secret. Marc has a video on it which I haven't seen so it may contain the information.
>>7898967
Wolfe has been a thing for months now.

what are /sffg/'s favorite books about struggling to survive in a strange environment, similar to The Martian or the SquidWard arc in agents of shit, or military sci-fi books?

Been really craving some Macgyvercore survival and futuristic operator, but I really have no idea where to start here.

>>7899263
Kensuke's Kingdom pham

>>7898967
>>7899106
It's been Wolfe for like 3 years or more what are you smoking?