Will art ever transcend the current post-postmodern/internet-meme

>>7461214
post-modernism is like capitalism or the han chinese, it integrates any opposition it comes across.

uhh art is still being created for arts sake, its just not commercialized mainstream shit.
were not post anything, just stuck in dystopian but comfortable consumerlandia

>>7461221
post modernism *is* capitalism

>>7461214
Francis Schaeffer pls go. It moved on from that thing you didn't like before, and it'll move on from whatever it is you don't like now.

>>7461214
>Will art ever transcend the current post-postmodern/internet-meme era?
Yes: New Sincerity (or a movement with similar traits) will overtake postmodernism as soon as society becomes sick of the racial and cultural tensions, the ironic detachment, and the radical progressivists. I'd give it 15-30 years.

>>7461239
Wrong

>>7461239
Translation: I don't understand postmodernism at all.

>>7461277
>>7461282

elaborate then

>>7461273
Can you explain new sincerity for a retard like me please

>>7461298
It means unsuccessful and bitter. See 'Stuckism'.

>>7461298
Another nonsense buzzword people attach to fiction to provide or, more likely, create an unnecessary "genre" or "era".

>>7461214
Nothing is stagnant, you fool.

>>7461214
no .current thought reached its end. there will be no more changes to human consciousness.

>>7461320
I agree . I feel like it's very reactionary and is just trying to be anything other than "post-modern"

>>7461273
dead men can't talk

>>7461298
>>7461301
>>7461320
New Sincerity is a literary movement spearheaded by DFW (though Gaddis had similar albeit more cynical sentiments long before him) that arose as a reaction to the irony, inauthenticity, and cynicism of postmodernism. Where postmodernists can be equated to edgy fedoras, members of the New Sincerity movement can be equated to edgy christposters, if that clarifies how they are related.

>>7461239
Postmodernism is a reaction to capitalism and industrialism, and it criticizes them heavily.

>>7461214
Great art, art that lasts, art that becomes representations of their mediums can be sorted into two orders: subjective cataloging of living and objective cataloging of being. The central divergence between the two is that the former provides great depictions of men and their times and the latter provides great depictions of man. By the former humanity was given the works of E.B. White, Browning, Sappho, Homer, Warhol, and Garry Trudeau’s Doonesbury; by the latter humanity received the works of Aesop, Rumi, Jacques-Louis David, Herman Melville, Mark Twain, Ignacy Krasicki, Biernat of Lublin, and Paul Kirchner’s The Bus. For a brief period beginning in the nineteenth century these two orders of art coalesced into what would later be described as Modernism. Modernism gave us Rimbaud, Flaubert, O’Keefe, Schiele, Kafka, Van Gogh, Yeats, Hemingway, Dalí, Picasso, Ernst, and Salinger. Either by the ever blossoming establishment of education or the rapid development and application of communication, the works created in this period were and are some of the most broadly recognized, revered, and glorified pieces of art to ever exist. It was through Modernism that humanity achieved one of its many historic peaks of creativity, but it came at great cost. The peak, expectedly enough, preceded one of history’s lowest nadirs of creativity, Postmodernism. Postmodernism gave humanity grief. The Anglosphere lost its sense of sincerity. A pause after serious words in anticipation of a punchline became common custom. Sarcasm grew into a transmittable disease. Trust became a joke. Toys of plastic replaced those of metal and wood and the same could be said of almost all of the period’s artistic output.

>However Modernism’s death and consequential replacement with guano was all foreshadowed, portended on a much smaller scale, in Ireland born James Joyce’s transmutation from one-eyed modernist to blind Postmodernist.

>I can’t account for his mind’s great failing, probably a difficult thing to discern, but what work remains of his is indicative of the changing times. Where Modernism was the ultimate of the period before itself, and Postmodernism the ultimate of Modernism, Finnigans Wake was the ultimate of Dubliners. There will come an ultimate of Postmodernism and, although it remains to be seen, I believe somewhere on this blue green nugget a man in a small room is toiling away and auguring the end of it with the spiritual granddaughter of “Araby”. Brahma’s coming back from his smoke break any day now.

>>7461364
But one of the major criticisms of postmodernism is that has become part of the system, a tool of capitalism, a shroud of cynicism and self-hatred to deflect any criticism or evaluation.

>>7461239
*late capitalism

19th century europe wasn't po-mo

Maybe I'm retarded, but what makes post-modernism "post-modernism"?

What are the defining characteristics of a postmodern work?
Can you give examples?

>>7461590
try google bud

Things only stay the same or spiral downwards.

New "technology" in how we communicated is just a distorted distraction.

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>>7461590
post modern works are widely varied in content and style, but they generally share a sense of disillusionment with modernist thought in some way or another, such as its conviction that rational thought and scientific progress would solve all of our problems, and its often extremely minimal, functional aesthetics (though modernism is also a term that covers a wide array of ideas which don't all conform to this example. Post-modern architecture, for instance, moves away from modern architecture's functional minimalism, reintegrating elements of premodern styles and/or experimenting with new forms.

In general it's a criticism of a lot of the new ideas that have emerged since the 19th century.

>>7461749
fuck I hate when I forget to close a parenthesis

>>7461354
I have doubts that this is going to happen vs. this has actually already happened, but it's just not that big of a deal.

Plenty of new sincerity has already been done and some forms of it are integrated into post modern works side by side (a bunch of internet art reminds me of the two mingling).

>>7461749
Would a criticism of the idea of self-made purpose and romanticism be postmodern?

Everybody just calm down. People are going through tough times. They'll say stuff that's mean and hurtful. You just have to understand. OK? OK.

Better?

>>7461774
Also this guy lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Roggenbuck

>>7461214
what is the pictured aesthetic called

>>7461743
>Literary postmodernism was officially inaugurated in the United States with the first issue of boundary 2, subtitled "Journal of Postmodern Literature and Culture", which appeared in 1972. David Antin, Charles Olson, John Cage, and the Black Mountain College school of poetry and the arts were integral figures in the intellectual and artistic exposition of postmodernism at the time.[22] boundary 2 remains an influential journal in postmodernist circles today.[23]

>Jorge Luis Borges's (1939) short story Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote, is often considered as predicting postmodernism[24] and conceiving the ideal of the ultimate parody.[25] Samuel Beckett is sometimes seen as an important precursor and influence. Novelists who are commonly connected with postmodern literature include Vladimir Nabokov, William Gaddis, Umberto Eco, John Hawkes, William Burroughs, Giannina Braschi, Kurt Vonnegut, John Barth, Jean Rhys, Donald Barthelme, E.L. Doctorow, Richard Kalich, Jerzy Kosinski, Don DeLillo, Thomas Pynchon[26] (Pynchon's work has also been described as "high modern"[27]), Ishmael Reed, Kathy Acker, Ana Lydia Vega, Jachym Topol and Paul Auster.

Fuck you too, now can anyone link to some actual literary theory?

>>7461797
vaporwave surrealism

>>7461214
there is no transcendence you minge there are only immanent beCUMings

>>7461777
self made purpose and meritocracy, certainly. Not sure about romanticism, but post modernity's fondness of irony could be seen as a reaction to to it, as well as other forms of idealism.

>>7461297
Post-modernism has entirely to do with the ways in which technology has organized society anew; and by doing so obsolesced earlier understandings/exchanges which resulted in previous creations which some would see as more true to "art." I don't know if I'd label the modern age as wholly post-modern, but think of the problem as modern technologies offering narrower means of human contact, and thereby reducing insight and increasing private ironic/detached observations.

>>7461749
This is a boring building. Every window is framed by aluminium profiles, which are simple to produce and machine. These petty obeliscs are a sore to my eye. This building is a fraud; it represents functionality and childish decorum at the same time. The handrails might be the worst, perhaps even NiRo. I will now minimize the jpeg.

Today I learned that omegle can be exhilarating.

>>7461214
No.

>>7462614
>I will now minimize the jpeg.
Kek.

>>7461273
>new sincerity is right wing
What?

>>7466447
You could argue that the fascist movements embodied a new sincerity after the frivolous twenties.

>>7466447
That's not what I meant.

So basically modernist turn to science and functionality while post modern is "fuck it" make it look aesthetic as fuck senpai ?
I think I'm starting to understand a bit more. Now what the fuck is new sincerity though and how is post modern entirely ironic?

>>7466452
But why would new sincerity be reaction to progressivists?

>>7466457
Because he likely sees progressivism as an offshoot of "cultural marxism" and "le Frankfurt school" which "created" pomo and "the death of Western civilization".

>>7466457
I meant hipsters and radical feminists, which aren't a cause of New Sincerity but future sources of backlash.
>>7466465
I don't believe any of those things.

>>7461802

There isn't really any "postmodern" theory per se, but there are numerous theories which are often classified as postmodernist, beginning from the poststructuralist movement of the late 60s. For particular discussions on literature, see McHale's Postmodernist Fiction and Hutcheon's Poetics of Postmodernism. Douglas Kellner's Media Culture has some insight onto pomo in it's theory section, which I found helpful, mainly by reassuring me that I wasn't the only one who thought pomo is a poorly defined and loosely used concept.

I am a new sinceritist

>>7467084
What does your butt smell like?

post-postmodernism is just modernism again

>>7461273
you clearly don't know what you're talking about

>>7461378
does art suddenly start in the 19th century?

Just subscribe to Remodernism and make art great again.

>>7467126
I don't see where I implied that. Mind showing me? Maybe I can clarify it.

>>7461378
>The central divergence between the two is that the former provides great depictions of men and their times and the latter provides great depictions of man.

The central divergence between the two is that the former provides great depictions of men and their times and the latter provides great depictions of man.

What does this mean exactly? Can anyone rephrase this into plain language?

>>7467307
I'm talking about the two sorts of art and the principal difference between them. It's a conclusion I came to during my studies.

>great depictions of men and their times
Specific stories about specific people where the story could only take place during a certain time, at a certain place
Example: Garret Yettal of New Jersey trying to stop a box of gynecological instruments from reaching its destination in 1972.

>latter provides great depictions of man.
John Doe falls in love with Jane Doe in any-town-Burg.

The examples I gave should help clarify it. You know the comic strip Doonesbury? It deals with issues in contemporary world, while an artist like Aesop deals with issues found in every Man at any time.

I argue that Modernism was the ultimate union of these two orders.

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>>7461273
>my face when i just realized we are in a societal state of "post-irony"

How has society not collapsed yet? Or has it already? considering that it is in fact the age of post-irony, i wouldnt know if it did or not...badum-tssssssss

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>tfw postmodernism ends with you

just wait a little longer

>>7467088
Generally? Shit and Irish Spring.

>>7461808
Is vaporwave a part of postmodernism?

>>7466477
>I don't believe any of those things.

why not?

they're true

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..."postmodern culture of relativism, irony, and pastiche" is over...

...replaced by a post-ideological condition that stresses engagement, affect, and storytelling...

https://warosu.org/lit/thread/S7385353#p7385522

>...exactly what is a Quantum Storytelling...

>>7461749
my city

anyone else?

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>>7468751

>the delicate combination of mental states and forces sometimes induced when several highly trained minds have fallen into an attitude of acute sympathy toward one another

>and are borne aloft through mutual helpfulness to regions of thought and emotion infinitely exalted

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>>7468756

... a heart-felt storytelling can create changes ...

... call this ‘Heart-of-Care’...

>>7467266
well i don't think history painting or christian art really embodies either category. history painting gave us myths, heroicism, and moral standards to which we could strive. christian art gave us christ as the subject in himself -- hardly just a 'man' by biblical description -- so that we could enjoy his presence. both these types of works that made up the most significant portion of western art as a whole and it's representative works only functioned if they weren't confined to a certain time but were always present and relevant to the viewer from any time. they also cannot sufficiently be called great depictions of man, if the subjects were mainly greco-roman myths or christ, or those depictions of great men who were elevated above the rest by their actions.

what i think of when i think 'men and their times' really starts in the 19th century, accompanying the enlightenment. of course there are precedents to this in the 18th century as enlightenment ideas made their way in publications throughout england and france, such as paintings of aristocratic leisure -- themselves drawing from pastoral scenes and landscapes from the 17th century, which are unaccounted for in either of your categories. but i don't think it's accurate to talk about 'great art' from a period of about 60 years before modernism really develops in the latter half of the 19th century.

your categories also don't account for romanticism, which developed concurrently, from around the very end of the 18th century. nor do they account for some branches of modernism like surrealism. both romanticism and surrealism don't have so much to do with depictions of men and their times or great depictions of man, but more to do with trying to capture the forces in and around man.

anyway what i'm saying is art is very complex in its purposes throughout the centuries and it is extremely difficult to account for all of it while fitting it into broad categories of living and being, especially when what you're trying to do only applies to a very short period of time right before modernism fully arrived.

>>7468618
arguably. it seems like that art precursor art from the 60s that used modernist techniques like collage but still referenced contemporary 'modern' life -- specifically pop art, which is also arguably postmodern. but its effect seems to be based around nostalgia rather than real criticism which makes me think that it is not really postmodern, despite the fact that it challenges the institutionalisation of display and doesn't really commit to a modernist 'project' of societal transformation. the surrealism in the OP pic is about escapism, rather than unlocking some hidden human potential. i guess you could call it post-postmodern but i mentioned before that post-postmodern really just seems to be a rehashing of modernism in a new context. maybe it's remodernism but i'm not really familiar with either of the terms. if it is postmodern, it is extremely soft postmodernism.

>>7467084
Go back to your containment board, we don't want your kind here
>>>/mlp/

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>>7469161
1/2
OK. I think I see why you would say that, and I understand what you mean; however, I'm of the mind that the two orders in which I categorize art are inclusive of every form of art throughout history.
When I speak of “Man”, I am speaking of an animal, in the same way a veterinarian speaks of a dog. There are many distinct characteristics of dogs that most men can agree to them possessing. These characteristics are what make dogs dogs (that and their biology, but I don’t know much about that). However, every dog also possesses characteristics that differentiate them, characteristics that make Spike Spike, Muffin Muffin, Cujo Cujo and Mitsy Mitsy. The animal Man is no different.
I argue that art can either be about the shared characteristics of man or the unshared.
>myths, heroism, and moral standards to which we could strive
>Christian art gave us Christ
Art of this nature captures those fundamental characteristics of Man that make Man the animal that he is, pride, greed, love, stupidity, wisdom, violence and so on.
To tell you the truth I’m not honestly sure which order Jesus Christ could be categorized into, for at once His behavior is of Man (tipping tables, weeping), but it is also very distinct to Himself, the son of God.
However, this brings me to something else, something that I didn’t include, but should have (something you smartly picked up on): I do believe there are always artists working anachronistically to the movements of their times. What this statement inheres is that a modernist is not bound by the period of his work, neither is a Gothic by his, nor a Transcendentalist bound by his. And so on.
And by this, perhaps Jesus Christ was of both orders. What I argue is that Modernism was a period with a far greater proportion of art that was the union of these two orders largely by the period’s employment of qualia in art.
>Your categories also don't account for… romanticism and surrealism don't have so much to do with depictions of men and their times or great depictions of man
I believe they do, and I’ll explain why. Man does not necessarily need to appear in a work of art to be the subject of it. The pastoral scenes which you mentioned, if you’re referring to works of the likes of Berchem and Poussin, succeed in both categories, for theirs is at once works of both of subjective perception and objective truth, for while submitting themselves before a higher rule (nature), they as well impose scenes of inconsequentiality. I believe they are works centered around the ultimate power that nature has to belittle the perishable clay that we are.

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>>7469161
I mentioned Ernst a few posts back. Although his work is often misdefined into as Dadaism or Surrealism because of its queer composition, his work is ultimately Modernist. They, like many Modern works, are of the two orders. The saying “the scene is not about what the scene is about” can be aptly described of ALMOST all his work. By creating works about men and Man, Ernst neatly tucks himself way into the lapels of both orders.
>art is very complex
I agree with you there.
>in its purposes
I don’t know, dude. I feel a constant in art, but I don’t think I’m able to discern what it is yet.

>>7461354
>>7466455
>>7461774

Metamodernism is both a better and worse term for New Sincerity. Personally, I dislike both terms.

Basically it's a movement that anyone with half a brain could see coming as a reaction to pomo.

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bump

>>7461214
>Will art ever transcend the current post-postmodern/internet-meme era? Or is it doomed to decline to its absolute termination?
Do we even ned a new literary fad? The situation we have now is fitting, isn't it?

>>7461214
>doomed to decline to its absolute termination
Of course it is, OP. That's how all periods of art begin/end.

>current era
>post-postmodern
what a meme. what can i say, i am loving this meme. i give it 5/5 meme points.

The true art of this era is fear, spread through a global tyranny.

Complete and total social disengagement ripples through a generation which slowly, in their isolation, begin to fear that they do not exist.


The evaporation of self and individual will lead to an all familiar end; the rise of a Messiah who will speak for all those who have lost their tongues and will to find them. Unlike the revolutions of the past, this sedition will be gradual, its insidious nature hiding it in direct view. All state and corporate power capitulated to technological control. Human growth will end, and one machine will rule us all.

And so naturally art will die.

>>7477497
4/10

>>7477497
this is true

>>7461378
go read The Fault in our Stars you fucking anal cuck. remember when your older brother moletsed you? niggeroid *laughs politely*

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BEHEAD ALL SATANS

>>7478840
HOW NOW BROWN COW