Recent Purchases Thread

>>7430065
lord of the flies is a good starting place but not nearly as compelling to me as moby dick or crying of lot 49

You haven't read all of those books already?

Get out of here.

>>7430065
Read them in chronological order, so I guess that would mean read Pride and Predice first.

Lord of the Flies is fine, but not great. It won't take up much of your time, though, so read it anyway if you want to.

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>bought these
>open them up
>read a few pages
>realize I've been spending too much time on /pol/
>throw them in trash
>close /pol/ tab

Got Dracula as a gift some while ago though, so I'll start with that probably tonight as I finished Small Gods(also gift) earlier today.

life is suffering

>>7430087
haha. I know the feeling

>>7430065
Good books, lad.

Should've got a better edition of Moby, though.

Ad Infinitum: New Essays on Epistemological Infinitism
Epistemology and the Regress Problem

>>7430087
>tfw the real redpill is realizing that even with a lifetime's worth devotion you'll never be to closer to the truth
>tfw 'redpill' just refers to existential crisis

>>7430070
is this a paradox?

>>7430069
>>7430071
>>7430106
thanks, moby was only £2 so it was just there at the time. i'll probably buy a hardback of it in the future

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>>7430065

>>7430119
How's being 15 treating ya?

>>7430119
Total hippie

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>>7430065
>Mapping Early Modern Japan: Space, Place, and Culture in the Tokugawa Period, 1603-1868 by Marcia Yonemoto
>The Premise of Fidelity: Science, Visuality, and Representing the Real in Nineteenth-Century Japan by Maki Fukuoka
>The Knowledge of Nature and the Nature of Knowledge in Early Modern Japan by Federico Marcon
>The Lens Within the Heart: The Western Scientific Gaze and Popular Imagery in Later Edo Japan by Timon Screech
>Ueda Akinari by Blake Morgan Young

Anyone want to try to guess the research?

>>7430099
Good, I'm not alone! kek
>>7430111
>>tfw the real redpill is realizing that even with a lifetime's worth devotion you'll never be to closer to the truth

You're correct, doesn't mean you should stop trying thought! Am I right? :^)

>>7430119
are you hindu or is it just interest

>>7430138
>You're correct, doesn't mean you should stop trying though
Yeah, but after a while, you realize /pol/ is off base and hating everyone and everything is just tiresome.

>>7430138
Heh, with my reading list I am.

>>7430119
>just take acid man everything will start making sense :^)

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>>7430087
I read generation ID at the beginning of the year and it really was garbage. Started browsing /pol/ less and /lit/ more after that. If you're into conservative lit though you should try Edmund Burke. Just picked up this beauty today

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Which one do I read next /lit/

>>7430161
A Scanner Darkly obv

>>7430161
Bolano

>>7430159
+ Joyce and Conrad.

>>7430144
True.
>>7430148
Please do share!
>>7430159
Yeah. Thing was, I had actually heard good things about ID in particular, from /pol/acks thought mind you.
> If you're into conservative lit though you should try Edmund Burke. Just picked up this beauty today

I am, or I rather have become after those books.

That is a beauty, I'll definitely add it to my list, thanks.

Was thinking about getting the Federalist papers next though since i'm still just a baby and still in the progress of shaking off this "new right" nonsense.

>>7430065
I'd go with moby dick. Wuthering heights is the only book I've gotten halfway through and just given up out of disgust. I thought it was awful, just a bunch of miserable characters in a miserable place doing nothing but making each other's lives as shitty as possible.

>>7430253
Tragedy porn is the derogatory term for things like Wuthering Heights.

I just read it last week, feel fairly similarly, but at least you can take solace in that there's a happy ending. Worth getting through for that.

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I posted this in the last haul thread but it died shortly after... Here it is again. I read Story of the Eye and am really enjoying Naked Lunch.

>>7430212
Never trust /pol/ with your reading choices.

Also, the new or alt right movement isn't nonsense. It's a necessary reaction to the times. Just don't equate alt-right to /pol/ and you'll be fine.

I found wuthering heights a little meh. It's very modern day romeo and juliet if instead of a family feud keeping the two apart what kept them apart was their egos.
Then again, I didn't enjoy much of what I was made read in school.

i just bought sphinx by anne garreta (an OULIPO book about a romance but none of the characters are gendered, impressive for a novel written in french) and stoner because it looks cool.

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Wow, GUYS! GREAT book hauls! Did I say great? Allow me to amend that: GRAND BOOK HAULS!

Are you guys on YOUTUBE? Because I do all my book hauls on Youtube, and I'd love to see videos of all your guys' BOOK HAULS!

Remember, haul those books on in! Get them IN! Never stop buying stuff!

>>7431523
i notice all "book tubers" seem to act in that hyperactive way. why is that

>>7431553

Not simply 'book tubers', but youtubers as a whole. It all started because they try to copy PlebDiePie en masse. Just pick a random flavor of the month youtuber and compare their latest video to one of their firsts, you'll notice.

Kind of says a lot about human psychology.

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>>7430065

I liked Moby Dick the best from among those that I've read. I would be most eager to read Wuthering Heights from among the others.

>>7431590

Also Lord of the Flies is interesting and pretty good to read.

>>7430065

Flies, HoD, Clot49 and then the others in any order

>>7430335
damn anon thats quite the reading you have ahead of you. Do you have a background in philosophy? have you read some deleuze before?

>>7430065
why there's a dick on the spine of your moby dick?

>>7432362
>>7431619
>>7431590
>>7431508
thanks for the help bros

i've just picked up dubliners and i've read portrait of an artist

do you think this is a good order to read the books

moby
heart
crying lot
dubliners
heights
flies
finn
pride

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these came just today

>>7430065
You didn't read that stuff in high school? They're all great though, so you did fine.

>>7430087
kek

>>7430119
I bet you love The Doors.

>>7430159
eh

>>7430161
I've been seeing a lot of Conrad around here lately, is he the next meme? Also it seems like nobody reads Nostromo, which is his best.

>>7430335
/r/sorceryofthespectacle fodder

>>7432526
Finally something that stands out. Make a post about the Gass after you read it.

>>7430161
On the Road desu

Recently got:
Love in a Bottle-Antal Szerb
The Name of the Wind-Patrick Rothfus
The Well of Ascension-Brandon Sanderson
The Sun King-Nancy Mitford

No idea how Mitford is for history but The Sun King sounds like it's going to be a fun book, I might hold off reading Well of Ascension until I get my hands on The Hero of Ages.

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Just drove by my college town over the weekend, decided to hit up my old haunts. The Eisenberg I ordered, though. She and Jean Stafford are seriously underappreciated.

>>7432588
>eh

Flying under the radar is probably the best compliment you can get from /lit/

>>7430137
> vMapping Early Modern Japan: Space, Place, and Culture in the Tokugawa Period, 1603-1868 by Marcia Yonemo

this any good?

>>7430087
aiai kekkai

>>7433574
Enjoy the Yourcenar. I had to read it with the translation, but I imagine the language flows just as beautifully.

>>7433584
I haven't received any of them yet, only ordered them a bit before that post.

The mapmaking aspect was what I was most interested in. What made you ask?

>>7433544
Nice taste anon. Enjoy the Hawkes and Gass!

>>7433627
Since recently I got into mapmaking/cartography and bought 3 books on it.

I like looking at the maps, but academic approaches are fine too

>>7433642
I doubt it'd hold much interest for you unless you were interested in Edo Japan as well, since it's not so much about mapmaking as about how mapmaking, along with other ways of acknowledging geographical boundaries and spaces, shaped the way they saw their world. I imagine she's going to be doing more with the travel narratives and encyclopedias in it (but again, haven't read it yet).

What books on cartography did you get?

>>7431581
its just adhd generation who cant sit still and play video games.

>>7433670
Ah seems interesting though, I played Shogun2 for a long time so i'm kind of interested in it. Don't think I'll buy it at 40$ though.


I got:
- Great Maps by Jerry Brotton
- History of the world in 12 maps by Jerry Brotton (more academic)
- Transit maps of the world by mark ovenden

haven't read everything yet though

>>7433681
Shogun is actually pre-Edo Japan, feudal times. The Edo period is when it stabilized with the Tokugawa shogunate. A lot of hedonistic cultural centers and really active theater.

I really like the look of the Brotton one, I like list-y histories, even when they tend towards pop history (like American Gun or A History of the World in Six Glasses).

>>7433611
Yes, I took a look inside and it's very well written.

>>7435491
Lolita

How experienced of a reader are you?...

Don't read Lot 49 for a long time.

For simplicity->difficulty read:
Lord of the flies --- Pride and Prejudice --- Huckleberry Finn --- Heart of Darkness --- Wuthering Heights --- Moby Dick

for "you should read this" order

Moby Dick --- Heart of Darkness --- Finn --- Wuthering Heights

Selected Poems - John Wilmot
The Shadow Of The Torturer - Gene Wolfe
In Parenthesis - David Jones
Lanark - Alasdair Gray
Selected Stories - Herman Melville
Penguin Book of Renaiisance Verse

>>7430119
Gaspar Noe - Enter the Void

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>>7430087
kek, nice reactionary/trad books exist but these are trash.
Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism and click there

>>7435491
Be more generic

>>7432588
>Finally something that stands out. Make a post about the Gass after you read it.

Yeah, I will do so. Not sure when I will get to it and then it will be rather slow read I suppose. Not an anglo here yet I want ti read some Gass (The tunnel is so tempting), so I decided to start with something short to try something by him.

Tried parts of Hawkes and Browne and it reads fine (Browne a little slower because of archaic language).

Just got a copy of John Milton's full poetical works from 1900.Where abouts should i start if ive already read paradise lost?

>>7438089
General chemistry is very outdated but a lot more fun to read than modern textbooks

>>7438089
>thinking fast and slow
Kek you fell for the meme

>5 book set of Hitchhikers
>3 Agatha Christie books
>Gone Girl
All for a total of around 14€.

>>7431590
fuck u i waited like 10 seconds for your pic to load

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It was my birthday, so I went a little crazy. Can't take a picture right now, but here's the list

Agamben - Opus Dei, Potentialities
Zizek and Millibank - The Monstrosity of Christ (ayyyyyy)
Tolstoi's complete short stories box set (pic related)
Rancière - The Emancipated Spectator and the Aesthetic Unconscious
Didi-Hubermann - Confronting Images
Aby Warburg - Ghost Stories for Adults
Isaac Babel - Odessa Tales
Imre Kertesz - Detective Story
Cervantes - Exemplary Novels
Georges Perec - L’art et la manière d’aborder son chef de service pour lui demander une augmentation
A collection of essays on Copyright and Piracy
Daniil Kharms - Today I Wrote nothing
Umberto Eco - Baudolino and A Theory of Semiotics

>>7438172
I remember it getting reced on /sci/ a lot

>>7431516
thanks for mentioning Sphinx dawg, I love what I've read from OULIPO but only know the basic stuff (Perec, Queneau, If on a Winter's Night)

>>7430161
>On the Road somehow looks much longer than the others
how.jpg

>>7438968
Br?!

>>7438987
it's probably the complete scroll edition (notice how there's [something edition] on the top of the book)

>>7438992
Yup

>>7438968
That spine art is fucking disgusting.

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>>7439020
I found the whole project to be a bit excessive at first, but I sort of grew used to it.

Also, I've paid something like 18 USD on a black friday sale, so I can't really complain (pic's not mine)

>>7439032
Garish. Completely inappropriate.

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>>7439038
You do realize these are all pictures taken of the russian peasantry (aka the theme of a fuckload of his writings) during Tolstoi's lifetime, don't you?

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>>7439038
Or do you think "color" was invented sometime after WWII?

>>7430335
I hope you know what you're getting into.

>>7430335
holy shit nigga, you're fucked when the easiest book in your haul is Naked Lunch

>>7439046
>>7439052
I'm talking about the bright borders, not the photos themselves.

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>>7439105
They're on the originals as well, fruit of the superposition of the negatives

>>7439119
Right, well it still looks completely wrong.

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all for about 20$ at various thrift stores

>>7440035
>recent

>>7440035
I need to go thrift shopping. I bought that same India book retail for almost the price of all of those books.

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Arden's King Lear
Bilingual editions of the Iliad and Hesiod's Theogony (both in Spanish)

The translation's are good, and that edición of King Lear is great.

>>7435491
what's the print/paper quality like on the ulysses? been wondering which edition to get, vintage are hit and miss, some like woolf are toilet paper but their magic mountain and gravitys rainbow are some of the nicest available

Wuthering Heights is terrible, burn it and never read it.

>>7438089
>TCM
>Kahneman
>Orwell
>The Stranger
You trollin'? Have you ever read before?

>>7440637
Arden's Shakespeare series is great. Nice pick up.

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Found Leaves of Grass on the bus a few days ago. Jerusalem is the only one I got new, got the rest at a book swap on Sunday.

throw it all away except joyce.

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>translations

>>7441791
>spergs

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>>7441780
jerusalem ofcourse

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>>7441791
>>7441807
>tfw I exclusively read stuff written in languages in which I'm fluent cause if I haven't read a work in its intended language I don't feel like I've read the work at all

>>7441815
no, the sperg thing was against the translation sperg, not against those who read translations.

>>7441809
It's a great book, though.

>The Gate by Natsume Soseki
>Discours sur l'origine et les fondements de l'inégalité parmi les hommes / Discours sur les sciences et les arts by Jean-Jacques Rousseau
>Une Vie by Guy de Maupassant
All bought at the Strand earlier this week. My sister also got me an English edition of Swann's Way. Might do a comparison between that and the French version.

>>7440637
>Mexican
AY AY AY díganme musas quién fue el chiquito que murió!

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>>7441780
>touching a book found on public transportation

Bump.

Winter break is coming up, fellow academic slaves.

What are you looking forward to reading?

>>7442065
how is that different than using library books? or touching anything in general?

>>7442084
Don't worry, he's probably American.

>>7442065
>being germophobic in the western world

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>>7442084
>touching library books
absolutely disgusting
>>7442089
you're god damn right
>>7442101
enjoy your loo and sharia, europoor

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>>7442210
whoops.

I just got finished with Heart of Darkness OP. It's a gorgeous read.

>>7442210
what the fuck

Today I bought The Prince and 100 years of solitude.

>>7442210
start with the greeks, then

>>7442210
Your doge looks like a fucking manatee.

>>7442210
why he is sad

>>7442459
he's enslaved by retards for their amusement?

>>7442459
She's just judgmental.

>>7442462
If she wasn't the happiest dog, I'd agree. Otherwise, I agree. z

>>7442454
I love manatees. I even have a poster of them in my room, right next to the Magritte

>>7442532
I like this. Enjoy your reading anon!

>>7442532
Just read catcher. Enjoy.

>>7443887
this is me
>>7442532
what I meant was, I just read catcher. Those other books are just fine too. Enjoy.

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Rotted desu that my schopendaddy vol 1 and 2 don't match ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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>>7441626
Read Godot already (pining for a second), along with ICTYBTYWHTBDBM (which is almost negligible, length-wise) and a good chunk of 5 Rings. Very excited for the rest

>>7443895
MEIN GOTT

>>7432319
I finished Anti-oedipus and I in no way understood it in its entirety but the concepts are fascinating and I like the writing style a lot.
>>7439100
Actually I think Baudrillard has a lucid style and is extremely readable. Story of the Eye was a very quick read but I'd like to go over it again. Barthes structural essay was also entertaining.
>>7438968
Great choice on Agamben and Milbank.

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A fiver for the lot.

And I didn't even want to buy a book...

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>>7438968

That looks amazing I love the color.

Collected sets of books in general really fire up my covetousness.

>>7441626
Sometimes the notes and appendixes are too much/worthless, like with Oxford's World Classics. Either it feels like I'm being spoonfed or they're just empty biographical facts or stuff like that that don't really help my reading of it.
Still good though.

>>7444846
how and where?

>>7445061
those looks really nice

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These two came in yesterday, and I purchased Arabian Nights, Count of Monte Cristo, Crime and Punishment, and War and Peace online from various websites. Should all be arriving in about 5 days.

Reading through American Psycho right now, then will move on to Man in the High Castle.

Which of the yet to arrive books would you recommend I start reading first /lit/?

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>>7442532
Your copy of CITR looks thick as shit, how big's the font in that version?

>>7444846
They'd have to pay me a fiver to take the Coelho.

>>7430159
Willinger just poorly regurtitates elements of the European New Right and Faye, he was only undergrad when he wrote this so I never expected much

>>7430212
>still in the progress of shaking off this "new right" nonsense.
New Right isn't nonsense, but Pop stuff like Generation Identity is. Read De Benoist's stuff, I find him very somber and measured

Greg Sestero - The Disaster Artist (Just finished it, really good)
Dostoyevsky - Notes from Underground & The Gambler
Tolstoy - The Death of Ivan Ilyich & Other Stories
New Translation of the Tales of the Elders of Ireland

>>7438085
>he hasn't read Ulysses or Lolita

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Left side is recently read: Crime and Punishment, A Clockwork Orange, Brave New World, To Kill a Mockingbird, The Picture of Dorian Gray, Gravity's Rainbow.

Right side is to be read: East of Eden, On the Road, The Book of Disquiet, Metamorphosis and Other Stories.

I know that this is pretty pleb, but I'm fairly new to this and want to get some basics out of the way before reading more "highbrow" literature. So which one next?

>>7445204

Local thriftshop, they offer 1 quid for 1m of books so they get way too much books, sell them for 5 per basket.

>>7445319
I just threw it in to balance my basket.

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My recent purchase
I like it, but it's tiring
Anyone else feel this way about poetic fictions? Will finish it of course.

>>7445785
Goethe's Faust if that's what you're getting at with poetic fiction
It's short and has magic so crazy stuff happens

Why do you guys buy books when the library has books you can borrow for free? The library has had every book I've wanted to read.

>>7446469
here's your (you)

>>7446474
you could have simply just said I'm a materialistic attentionwhore who needs to show it off to other retards on /lit/

>>744563>>7445636
The Dutch books made me think you live in the Netherlands so figured you might have a good recommendation

>>7446469
That's nice for you, but mine doesn't have everything I need. Inter library loans are $2 each. It's often cheaper to just buy the book myself.

>>7446670
what shithole do you live in?

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>>7446666

>>7446686
Dallas, but not Dallas proper, so I don't get their network of libraries.

It's not like I'm reading top 100 classics though; they're still a good library for that. Their children's, YA, graphic novels and high school reading sections are what they're best at, as that's the majority of patrons. I was going to work there as an assistant librarian if they had upped their pay offer. Which also would have made loaning from them worthwhile (free ILLs and leeway on due dates).

>>7431553
most of their fanbase have very low attention span and need spectacle and randomness in order to keep their interest. plus I think they big boys get payed in audience retention time as well.

>>7446606
Is that Iliad translation any good fellow Huebro?

>>7446666

Mooi kwartet.

And not really, this shop pretty much stocks pulp just like the rest. There's maybe 10 good books per month tops that are even worth considering. The rest is just an endless pile of Grisham and Patterson sandwiched by Tom Clancy.

Has anyone itt read Eyeless in Gaza by Huxley?

I'm debating whether or not to add it to the list of books I plan to read over my winter break.

>>7446857
Read it anyway? I don't understand why it's such a dilemma for you guys to decide which books to read. It's not normal to channel so much effort into this really immaterial and really inconsequential decision.

>>7446817
Yes. A friend of mine told me it's one of the best ones around our hue country. Go for it.

>>7446912
(forgot to mention: my friend's a linguist, so I kind of trust him)

>>7446862
there's something with 4chan and not being able to make minor decisions on your own or doing basic research.

>>7438089
underage b&

>>7446652
(you)
sorry I'm late

>>7448917
Anon. Can you please test something for me.

See that Penguin Classics Clothbound book?

Can you please try to scratch a little bit of the orange off, and tell me how easily it comes off.

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>>7448938
It's not one of the clothbound classics, it's one one of the "pocket" hardbacks which have a more smooth texture and the designs more pressed in, about 30 seconds of scratching with a nail and a coin has no effect at all on any of mine, they're very nice but there's only about a dozen in this range which is a shame.

I have a couple of the normal clothbounds you're thinking of and yes they're a nightmare.

>>7448957
You lucky fucker, god damn do I hate my copy of Moby-Dick. How hard could it be to make parts of the cover not disappear overt time?

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>>7448961
It's ideal for the materialistic sheeple who buy the clothbound editions in the first place.
You barely have to read the book for it to look worn, so it can quickly be placed on your stephen king shelve again.
Embrace it.

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>>7430119
What the fuck is that Gita?
This is mine.. Is yours the whole mahabharata or something?

>>7430335
Foucault, Deleuze... Disgusting philosophy

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I got these bad boys today

>>7430065
read the pynchon, then maybe the conrad. throw the rest away

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>>7450502
the classic wordsworth crime and punishment

>>7450502
>ironically buying a book just for its bad cover

jesus christ

>>7430065
Lord of the Flies is young adult fiction tier

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Been stocking up on stuff for the winter break, can't wait for a couple of weeks of good drink and comfy reading.

>>7451012
niiice. make sure you read gogol's the portrait. gooood shit. better than his dead souls imho

>>7430065

Order of quality:

1. Moby Dick
2. Heard of Darkness
3. The Crying of Lot 49
4. Huckleberry Finn
5. Lord of the Flies
6. Wuthering Heights
7. Tedium and Boredom

>>7430087

Except for the Handbook (which is okay-ish) they are all absolute trash. I've met Friberg a few times irl and he's pretty retarded. Same goes with Willinger - he's just driven and non-crazy enough to impress all of the autistic folks in those circles.

If you really want to go deep with proper conservatism, never visit /pol/ again, then start with the Greeks. After the Greeks, you can give some proper writers a shot - Carlyle, Froude, C.S. Lewis, Chesterton, and so on. Then go for Guenon and perhaps Evola - he's an edgelord but he's still pretty damn good most of the time (some of his shit is quite stupid and irrational). Burke is ok but kinda overrated as a conservative writer imo, he only really wrote the Reflections and that's it. Carlyle's history of the revolution is a million times better and deeper, even the prose is way better.

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>>7451170

Here you go, a graphic to go with that. It's pretty decent though some of the shit in the isn't conservative or right wing by half, and some of them are terrible borefests. Stay the fuck away from the /pol/ shit down to the right, like Sunic, Benoist, Dugin, Faye, etc, it's absolutely horrific.

>>7451012
That Borges translation is shit-tier.

>>7451233
All translations of anything are shit-tier

>>7451137
pleb as fuck

>>7451233
why anon?

What's wrong with it?

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How did I do guys? I've finished all but O'Hara.

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>>7451233
:^)

>>7451251
le patrician face xd

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Decided to follow your advice and start with the Greeks

>>7430065
read moby dick, it's the best fucking shit
>>7430159
something happened is really good imo
>>7430335
naked lunch is great times, glad you're enjoying it
>>7431590
just read the magic mountain it's magical
>>7440035
this is a great fucking haul, i'd jump straight into metamorphoses if i were you
>>7443991
the peregrine is so fucking beautiful, i hope you like it

>>7451347
Australian?

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>>7451347
>>7451361

Sorry

>>7451366
>he fell for the Greeks meme

>>7451366
Would you recommend that book on the presocratics?

>>7451347

Why Herodotus and not Hesiod?

Also, how are those Aristotle's Complete Works? I wanted to buy them but they are too expensive, and I found a lot of PDFs from one of the greatest academic editions on Greek and Latin works, so I decided to just read those. But man, those editions sure look nice.

>>7451367

I'm loving it so far, so I guess so

>>7451368

Yes, it's very condensed, and it's written in an academic style with zero bullshit. A bit tiring to read at points due to having jump back and forth between the text and fragments/contemporary commentaries (this is one of those books where you have to sit with three fingers lodged in different positions in the book so that you can go back and forth every half minute). But it does its job perfectly.

>>7451385

Haven't gotten to reading it yet, but I took it mainly from seeing it recommended by several sources (especially /lit/'s start with the greeks-flowchart).

From what I've leafed through the Aristotles briefly it seems to be really good. Pages are pretty thin but that's not an issue for me. From what I've read they're supposed to be the standard comprehensive editions, so not really many alternatives out there. I did pirate all the ebooks, too, but when you have to crisscross between sections and books in order to get full comprehension I really much prefer the physical books.

where are you guys buying your books?
just amazon?

>>7451327
Your translation: https://faculty.washington.edu/timea/art360/funes.pdf

A decent translation: http://www.srs-pr.com/literature/borges-funes.pdf

>>7451438

Amazon for bulk and urgency, Book Depository for individual books which you don't need immediately.

>>7451456
Thanks man, does the book depository offer like a better selection, more editions and just more variations in general then?

>>7451460

It is sometimes more unexpensive than Amazon, but sometimes, like 1 or 2 out of 10 times, it is more expensive. It also has free delivery, always. The selection is the same, I would say, but perhaps Amazon has more books.

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Got these for $2.50 each, sorry for the bad picture

>>7450825
:^)
(didn't you also see TLOTIAT in there?)