Anyone here is christian? Can you justify your faith or at least

Grew up with it. Parents passed it on like a gene.

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>>7420666
Stop lying Satan.

The only justification for faith is "I have faith"

I grew up in a catholic country, went to catholic school all my life and to be honest this whole catholicism fetish 4chan seems to have embraced recently is pretty baffling. maybe its just american kids who grew up in a sheltered secular community with pot-smoking parents who never gave a shit. The only way they can rebel is by LARPing as catholic reactionaries. pretty much like weeaboos they adopt a romanticized alien culture because they weren't accepted by their own.

>>7420665
Grew up Catholic, nowadays somewhere between unitarian and a historical critic in my theology.

Anyways, >>7420666 is right. If you grow up in a really Catholic or Evangelical family, its very hard to kill God in you. The pervasive belief in an afterlife determined by an unknown ratio of faith + works determines or hides behind most if not all of your actions, even if you know it is irrational. I sincerely do not understand late converts. I think such people are either profoundly influenced by trauma (atheists in a foxhole, finding jesus after committing a crime or atrocity etc) or just ignorant, hence bliss.

I think Ingrid Bergman really hits the nail on the head here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT2qRdffNik

>>7420686
>Ingrid Bergman
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I bet you make your mother laugh all the time.

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>>7420686
>Ingrid Bergman

>>7420689
>>7420690
fahk guys, iphone

>>7420665
Not satisfactorily to any thinking person. Like the ex-catholic guy, I grew up in a very scholarly Presbyterian church and school. I can see how Christianity could be appealing on the surface, but ultimately it's so in satisfying, both intellectually and spiritually, that I just couldn't believe it was the ultimate truth it claims.

>hurr durr there are loads of Christian intellectuals
Indoctrination is a hell of a drug. Christian thought is nonstop balls-out sophistry.

>>7420739
Thanks very much anon. Do you have this in text form as well?

>>7420665
>>7420764

>For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. ... For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. --from 1 Cor 1

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>>7420773
http://pastebin.com/7Mtp30sK

>>7420739
>self-centered child becomes a Christian because atheism makes him feel lonely and unspecial
This is all just feels, and kinda shallow ones at that. He even starts off with either a lame or intentionally leading justification for his atheism, as if god's existence or nonexistence was predicated on the writer's mental fortitude, an obviously retarded position that sets him up for more retarded but theistic positions later.

>>7420686
I grew up Catholic, and it was VERY easy to kill. Unless you come from one of those devout Hispanic Catholic families, most Catholics are so lapsed. We don't really read the Bible, everything is about following a routine and getting to the next stupid sacrament. I don't know how anyone who is educated in basic Vatican/Church history can be a Catholic. If there is a God, there's no way he'd be chill with the Catholic church. It's so much bullshit, so much ritual and iconography to keep mindless people in the church. I got all the way to confirmation to appease my mother, but I fundamentally started to disagree with Catholicism in my early teens when I disagreed with most of what the Deacon told us I should believe. Then I read the Bible for myself and realize how idiotic and absurd the messages are. Dunno, if I instinctively and rationally feel something isn't right, I feel like that inner foundation is the closest to finding whatever Truth or "God" may be out there, not some outdated book.

tl;dr Not someone OP was looking for.

>>7420666
>Parents passed it on like a gene.

More like HIV.

>>7420764
Most "young Christians" nowadays only pretend to believe it because it gives them an advantage over others in almost all cases. It's feel-good bullshit from a moral perspective, such as they never feel too bad other people are more talented, smarter, better looking, etc., because I got muh Jesus so that automatically trumps all that stuff combined. It's the ace up the sleeve and that's exactly how they use it.

The "Christian intellectuals" especially do this, because intellectuals engage in debate and exchanges of ideas far more often than regular tards, so they need the "Christian" label to resort to whenever they feel intellectually inadequate.

It's often said on 4chan that atheism is the religion stupid people join to feel smarter. Contrary to that, Christianity is the religion semi-smart people join in order to speak from a self-sucking position of a supposedly higher moral status.

It's basically an existential affirmation. It can only be justified insofar as other existential affirmations can be.

>>7420665
>anyone here christian
yes
>justify your faith
Repeat the magic words every Sunday and try not to think about it. The alternative, millenial culture, is far worse.

>>7420802
>that inner foundation is the closest to finding what're Truth or "God" may be out there
This. Existing religions are corrupted remnants of an individual or group that got a glimpse at some truth. it should be a highly individual journey, something most churches give lip service to but can't actually assist with.

I may join a Unitarian-universalist congregation to see if they're on board with open seeking the way I've heard.

>>7420829
>The alternative, millenial culture, is far worse.

I'm interested—what is millennial culture? How is it worse?

>>7420829
I'll kill you
*unsheathes trilby*

>>7420829
That's hardly the only alternative to millennial culture. What about exploring Buddhism or seeking truth with like-minded individuals in an academic setting or universalist congregation?

You may have to let go of some comforting aspects of the faith, but I think you stand to gain something much better, or even get those things back but with a deeper understanding and appreciation.

>>7420811
rotates helmet

>>7420686
this is the biggest load of shit. Most christians "kill" god inside themselves at the age of thirteen. Im not making the "every atheist is an edgy thirteen year old" meme or anything, just saying many christians go through an atheist faze and come back. I sure did, now i consider myself christian, but i dont really have all the theological kinks worked out yet, to be honest.

>>7420890
>i consider myself christian

Yes. Isn't it convenient to think so.

>>7420802
This. I come from an Irish Roman Catholic family in Philadelphia and none of my family ever gave a shit about the message of their beliefs -- it was entirely culture and ritual. We had to go to church every Sunday and my parents admitted they hated every second of it and didn't even listen most of the time, but it's just what they're supposed to do. If you don't go to church every Sunday you're a bad person.

I told my parents I didn't want to be Confirmed and they flipped shit. I said that if I went up there and pretended I believed in Catholicism I would be lying, but they forced me to do it anyway on threat of kicking me out of the house. They're completely okay with seeing a holy sacrament desecrated as long as they look like Good Catholics(TM) to everyone around them.

>>7420846
>that's hardly the only alternative
that's a good point.

the reason I consider buddhism, universalist congregations, etc, not a viable alternative to conventional protestant Christianity is convenience. I know a few Buddhists, etc, and they're hobbies are limited to just one, seeking greater spiritual enlightenment. I'm fine with regular spiritual enlightenment thank you

>>7420686
>Ingrid Bergman
>le people are religious because they're afraid of death
what a jejune post

>>7420665
Stuff like this is obviously something you mostly can't really prove or disprove from a scientific ("physical"?) perspective. It's belief, and i think it originates from an essential ... inclination, idea (an essential belief)? I dont know what to call it, but, for example, the Christian one would be something along the lines of the Nicene Creed.

Disclaimer my theology game weak, ill try to make it as vague as possible.


Now, the Nicene Creed says some things. One of the things it says, probably something you're looking for, is the proclamation that there is one Creator, almighty, and thus just. This is important. God is engulfing in scope. There is nothing before him, nothing without him, everything carrying his mark and his presence. God is almighty, so he is good, since this stream of belief believes in a higher goodness, in which this case is concentrated in God and found in his creation, making nature and creation good and just, it's all in order, all carrying love.

So the belief is moral. It sees meaning. This is where i stop in to make my point, hopefully succeeding in saying something understandable. The basis for this kind of belief, is not as simple as >>7420682
the faith originates somewhere. But, where? I'd say from the observation that there is good, and that it is higher than evil, that evil is a rebellion against the crowned good, with no hope of defeating the basis for everything, the only certified natural law, the forever reigning kingdom of good. So some see no meaning, their observations do not lead their heart to it, so they see evil as the horrible thing that it is, and they beat their chests to heaven and deny any claim to the reign of love. But the other still believe in it's higher power, and so look at evil with just as much terror, but they do not give up because of it, they do not see the suffering as a sign of defeat, but as the sad state of humanity, due to some horrible flaw that brought us so far from the good. They believe in its power, and they witness the shimmering light of it all around them, shining with such intensity, to some day spread its flames into a roaring fire to warm the earth, due to God's love and sovereignty, fixing the flaw (this could be done after death, at one point in time (still probably after death) or whatever).


I dont know how jumbled that got, and forgive me for the imagery or whatever, felt like i couldn't say it right in plain words so went full purple on you guys. But now that you have read all that, maybe i can conclude by coldly paraphrasing. Remeber, this was specifically Christianity and generally "faith" in most credible (imo) belief systems.

Belief in:
>almighty God
>almighty is good/love
>universe/existence/ etc is good
>evil does not triumph, only causes immense pain and suffering, it's a form of impotent rebellion against creation.
>God will save humanity and fix its flaw

Those are the things i can mention, like i said my theology and writing shit.

>>7420685
This pretty much

t. Former 4chan catholic larper

Do all Christians believe in the supernatural?

No one is fucking christian. No one.

>>7421041
I'm asking because I feel myself transitioning into religiosity but I can't quite make myself agree with the more "superstitious" elements other Christians believe in, like divine intervention.

>>7420665
I've been a Jehovah's Witness since I was a kid. Never actually believed in anything of their shit. Their crazy ideas probably made me an agnostic and I left it some months ago. I don't see any point in being part of a religion anymore but I get how they (christian religions overall) appeal to some people.

>>7420685
Please don't be presumptuous.
>>7420764
Stop trolling, it isn't cool.
>>7420846
Buddhism and psychedelic use are the lowest forms of spirituality.
>>7421121
Pragmatists are so weak.

>>7421065
But you can bring yourself to believe God, the creator of reality, took on a human form, was put to death, and then came back to life?

>>7421141
I can bring myself to believe in God but the trinitarian doctrine isn't even what Jesus preached and I don't know how people can believe in it.

>>7421141
Sure. I feel like God created the world and its laws, and has left us alone to make our own decisions. Does that go against traditional Catholic doctrine?

>>7420685
This desu.

Also, you'd have to either be ignorant of or consciously ignore all the major moves in philosophy since the middle of the 19th Century to think that Christianity is still realistic

>>7421135
What a degenerate post. I'd expect nothing less from a Papist. By the way, could you sell me an indulgence? I'll give you my ticket to salvation.

>>7421163
Ego-stroking is degenerate.
>>7421155
>its le current year!

>>7421149
Wait, so you're an Arian?

>>7421154
Yeah, that's deism. Deism is the idea that God created, but doesn't sustain or intervene, the universe runs on its own post creation.

>>7421045
Go to bed, Kierkegaard.

>>7420685
/thread.

Only thing I might add is that these LARPers latch onto Catholicism/Orthodox Xtianity precisely because these are the most history- and rule-oriented demoninations, and are thus seen as providing the strongest resistance to moral relativism.
'Imagine how easy it would be to get things done if I earnestly believed that I was right and everyone was wrong!'
The problem, though, is that the kind of person who would approach religion with this mindset is clearly not somebody who can just 'fake it til they make it.'

>>7421180
Catholicism supports free will, though; so that requires the freedom of choice God has given us. Anything else would be fatalistic determinism.

>>7421175
Please read Wittgenstein

>>7421202
Not him, but what in his post warranted you to recommend him Wittgenstein?

>>7420833
I hear most Unitarian churches are, but some are Christian only, just nondenominational Christian. I wouldn't be interested in that, but I'd like to hang out with people who read from multiple religions and want to discuss how they evaluate spirituality.

>>7420926
I am so with you. I come from Cajun Catholics, just around New Orleans which is the most Catholic part of Louisiana since most of the state tends to be some form of Protestant. It's just a part of the culture honestly, all the cathedrals and whatnot. But yeah, I just let my mom get her Confirmation for appearances. I knew it mattered to her and I almost found it funny to officially leave the Church after I confirmed my loyalty to it.

I'm agnostic, and my mom gets so uncomfortable when I talk about religion openly or get critical. She is almost fearful, which shows the power of ignorance over this subject matter. It's "taboo" to speak ill of such a thing if you have faith in it. But my mom doesn't attend church, doesn't read the Bible,... I'm always like "where is your foundation for judging my perspective? At least I've read the Bible and know the history of Catholicism." I really don't get how people buy in to blind faith. The only part of Catholicism that kept me involved as long as I did was the act of Communion, because "I" took the absolution of the soul as a very profound experience. Later I read some Taoist and Buddhist books and realized how easily you can appreciate the spiritual experience and say F.U. to the pointless dogma. I appreciate the complex symbology of religion, but following all that with sincerity, hell no.

>>7421202
I have. Please study theology before you speak.

An absolute being supersedes all logic. Claiming otherwise is pure humanly hubris.
>>7421214
Please take your unwarranted pride back to Reddit.

>>7421199
God gives us free will, but anything living would instantly perish without God sustaining it, and God giving us free will doesn't mean he won't give us help sometimes.

>>7420685
I'm not really sure how there is anything wrong with Christianity as a counterculture. In fact, it's a good thing, it's far better than moral relativism and scientism.

>>7421045
In a perfect world.

>>7421221
Yeah, I can't see myself agreeing with that. God isn't a puppeteer.

>>7421221
The only way I've been able to accept the possibility of a God entity is in two ways:
-Deism: Essentially a being made existence, said shit I'm taking a nap, and left when it was done
-God in Life: The whole transcendental hippie-dippie God is evident in nature and life as a whole, not a single-minded entity whatsoever. An overall consciousness of everything together... Well, sort of like the collective unconscious or spiritus mundi or what have you.

>>7421239
Just because he's not a puppeteer, doesn't mean we don't depend on him. Even Satan would stop existing if God stopped sustaining him.

If you can't handle the idea of God as sustainer, then you're a deist, not a theist.

>>7421240
The second one is the same as atheism, apart from semantics.

>>7421244
He's a "sustainer" in the sense that he created the rules of logic and could also destroy them or change them if he so chose -- but he doesn't. And according to a posteriori inductive reasoning, God is content with the world he has created, and is watching without intervention as an all-knowing spectator.

I'm not a deist.

>>7421262
What you described is literally deism.

>>7421220
I don't see how I'm being proud in the least. I just think it's eerie how religious people by name but not really practice cannot handle hearing people talking about religion openly. I have Christian friends that you just don't talk religion with, they are uncomfortable about discrepancies in the Bible being pointed out and immediately try to justify it as though God is holding a stopwatch until they quickly prove their faith to the naysayer.

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>>7421264

>>7421244
Eh, atheists don't romanticize it nearly as much. I'm open to both which is why I guess I'm agnostic. I'm just too led by intuition and the experience of "intellectual beauty" that override my rational thought. That's where my spirituality lies. I don't need to define it, and really words can't explain that sort of thing.

>>7421274
>words can't explain that sort of thing

>>7421202

>>7421269
What, so am I blacklisted by all of Catholic America now, since I'm not a superstitious nutjob?

>>7421274
>Eh, atheists don't romanticize it nearly as much.
It's the same thing, regardless of how much you romanticize it. Feurbach believed in humanity as God.

>>7421267
>discrepancies
There are none.

This is why you are prideful.
>>7421282
>nutjob
LE CURRENT YEAR
>>7421274
Rationality doesn't exist.
Intuition isn't rigorous.

>>7421282
Well, you're definitely a heretic, since doctrine explicitly says God intervenes, it's in the Gospels. God coming down in human form and performing miracles is intervention, and Jesus says you can do all sorts of great things when God is on your side, etc.

>>7421285
If I ever completely rule out deism, I'll change my title to atheist if that will make you feel better, bro.

>>7421288
Catholicism disavows superstition, retar.

>>7421290
Let's say God intervened to pass his message along; what other purpose would he have to intervene after that? The message has been spread, and it's up to us now to choose.

>>7421303
>Let's say God intervened to pass his message along; what other purpose would he have to intervene after that? The message has been spread, and it's up to us now to choose.
Because he's our father. He might not be our puppeteer, but he's also not a deadbeat dad.

I knew friends who dropped out on their religious beliefs after being forced to take Sunday school. My family never has been religious, were not atheists though. My dad grew up pentacostal and he said it took out a lot of fun out of his childhood. I just happy some kids can think for themselves. I also had a few Catholic friends who turned on their religion just because they were hit in Catholic school (lol)

>>7421362
>UHBUHBUHBUH MUH FUN

>>7421220
>An absolute being supersedes all logic.

this is how everyone can tell that you haven't read wittgenstein

>>7421374
Stop trolling, please.

>>7421330
I don't look at it so much as him being a deadbeat dad, but more like an artist happy with his own creation. I do believe in Jesus, however.

>>7421384
Wittgenstein was a fideist, and you're the biggest troll in this thread desu.

>>7421402
>fideist
I never said otherwise?

My point was that an absolute being is above all possible thought.

>>7421232
Moral relativism is true, though, if not practical for the masses. You're accepting it's truth by saying that something as dogmatic as Catholicism is fine so long as it works.

I'm Catholic because, as I see it (and of course you're all apt to disagree, but you wanted to understand the reasoning of people like me if you came into this thread, so here goes):

1. I feel spiritual and see religion as a way to structure my spiritual experience

2. Christianity answers the questions that I want a religion to answer, for the most part. It is a little vague on the whole "after death" part, unfortunately, but then I can see how this would be inevitable given that it's a little hard to describe a spaceless, timeless state connected to all timelike dimensions simultaneously cogently to a mortal trapped within such a timelike state.

3. Catholicism has, of all the christian denominations, done the most thought on their own beliefs, simply by virtue of having been around the longest and having to deal with the most dissent.

4. While it's pretty clear to me that much my church is "pointless" ritual insofar as it has nothing to do with actual spirituality, I have found repetitious prayer, the establishment of traditions, and the like to be conducive to the improvement of my spiritual experience.

Having read the literature on the supposed physiological and psychological origins of spiritual sentiment, I have to disagree with those notions. The origin of religious belief in human culture is still, I think, a largely unsolved mystery. Dawkins and the like are self-defeating - if religion is so damaging and insipid because of its failure to mesh with reality, then it should automatically be selected out in competition with atheism. Atheism and religion have been around simultaneously in most (all?) cultures since the dawn of time, and that hasn't happened. At the very least, if I am wrong and I vanish upon death, then I chose an evolutionarily competitive meme to live by as I lived.

What is that, some kind of secular complement to Pascal's wager? lol

>>7421489
Your post is a disaster area, and you've already fallen into an open manhole.

>>7421502
good one mate. Never expected baseless antagonism in this thread at all!

>>7421489
>spirituality is a feeling and I like to stimulate it
Wow, so you understand why people don't take Christians seriously in these discussion, right?

I like to cum, but I don't spend everybsunday morning setting up the perfect wank fest.

>>7421511
why don't you do that? I know more than a few people who do, actually

>>7421507
The best part is

>Dawkins and the like are self-defeating - if religion is so damaging and insipid because of its failure to mesh with reality, then it should automatically be selected out in competition with atheism

Like, do you think things before you say them, or do they just come out?

>>7421518
well, help me understand where I went wrong?

>inb4 no, you're too far gone to understand the wonderful truth of atheism

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>>7420685
i think it may be online missionaries from the Catholic church.

'And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!'

i am a catholic Christian who goes to a church of 70-90 year old quakers who are all like grandparents

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>>7421489
So you clearly don't actually believe what you say you believe

You're very open about its fundamental weakness, that it's not grounded in anything concrete - but 'muh spiritual feelings'

If it's just a game to make you feel better, and you acknowledge that, how can you make the jump to 'God is the be-all end-all answer to philosophy' that Catholicism demands?

>>7421516
I don't expect masturbation to reward me with anything but a nut. I'd rather spend my time working towards a goal the rationa part of my mind tells me will be more rewarding.

>>7421526
Not him, but natural selection is messy. A trait doesn't just disappear because it's not conducive to some abstract ideal of progress. Traits can appear randomly and persist pretty much so long as they don't keep their hosts from reproducing.

>>7420685
Meaning you grew up in a place where the people don't go to mass, don't pray, don't go to confession, use contraceptives, get abortions, get divorces, support gay marriage, support separation of church and state, don't educate their children about the faith, don't support vocations to the religious life, and don't know the first thing about any of the Church's teachings about faith or morals, but still go "I'm a Catholic! Just look at this cross I wear!"

The only places to find real Catholics are where it's unpopular to call yourself Catholic.

>>7421535
3,000 years of living tradition is not "muh feelings"

>>7421518
If you're interested in this type of thinking you should read Darwin's Cathedral. It looks as religion as a 'meaning system' that coheres groups, which is why it's positively selected. Things being selected don't necessarily have to do with their meshing with reality.

>>7421535
i think largely catholicism sometimes says they are the answer to philosophy, not God

>>7421560
>implying
Have you never met a human before?

>>7421535
Well, I think that its theology is sound, but the rituals based on that theology are not (because often they're not even based on that theology).

God is not in fact the be-all-end all answer to philosophy according to Catholicism. It is the be-all, end-all answer to theology. The two are separate as I understand them.

>>7421549
So you're setting aside time for stuff that makes you feel good all the same.

I find the stimulation of my spiritual feelings to be rewarding enough to devote more time to it. It improves my goal-setting behaviors and my subjective feelings about the rest of my existence, and I find myself more happy and satisfied with every other experience if I stimulate my spiritual feelings. To be sure, it is an inherently self-centered behavior, which is why I like that my church teaches that it's also not the complete answer.

i think catholics should tell the world that they carry on the gospel and the love and the commands of the living God rather that they are the "Catholic Church" who do various things and have various things to comment on when it comes to society. having said that i love the pope, lol!

>>7421535
What a joke of an argument

>>7421585
The jacking off thing was more of a joke than a real point. I'm saying that you're uncritically supporting something huge and dogmatic and not particularly concerned with truth because it happens to mesh with your feelings.

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"The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever"

"He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him."

>>7421556
And I get that, but I think Dawkins and the like are going very far in their criticisms of religion. They first paint it as incredibly detrimental, then try to explain how it manages to persist. But as you say, it cannot be so detrimental as to prevent the reproduction of its host.

Not only has religion persisted, mind you, but it actually has proliferated massively. MOST people in the world, for most of its history, have been religious. And, mind you, plenty would like to argue that this is diminishing in the present day, but instead I would posit that religion is simply transforming its aspect. Scientism is rampant, and full of its own kind of spirituality, unfortunately masked from its true source. It is the new religion, and thus like most new religions which have not had time to really mature, it is hugely inferior. It will have to improve if it really wants to gain ground in the "meme pool."

>>7421594
>no, my feelings are all that matters!!!!
What a joke of an argument.

>>7421526
Just because something is "damaging" doesn't mean it's "unfit." Fitness is the issue in evolution, not "ethics" or morality" or "failure to mesh with reality." We can imagine the tribes of Israel and Samaria 3,000 years ago were murderous, genocidal maniacs who would slaughter their neighbors at the drop of a hat, but they were fit. Their neighbors weren't. There is no ethical end goal to evolution, it's just that religion helps to sustain the systems that humans best live in (regarding hierarchies, social clarity, and fairness and such) that it's a far superior deal to despotism or tribal relations.

It's probably not a superior deal to something like social democracy, though. Again and again you see religion trying to reassert itself in something that's become the general public's domain (birth control, abortion, general social values), and you see religion a hundred years behind the times. It was useful back then, definitely, for all its flaws. But technocratic, non-theistic social democracy out-evolved it.

>>7421588
ah man when i post this comment i think God just illustrated to me how contention between believers of the way can make saving people's souls go awry

>>7421609
Depends on what you mean by detrimental. Religion may promote social cohesion, but you can observe for yourself that the rulers and wealthy are rarely meek and mild followers of Christ.

If religion just promotes cohesion among the ruled and allows the rulers rondo their thing, which side of that do youngest you and your children on?

>>7421609

"for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

>>7421563
I fully understand that. Did you read my whole post?

>>7421604
Well, you have to understand that I'm coming from the approach that the spiritual is not particularly accessible to reason; so yes of course I'm not particularly concerned with finding out the truth rationally because as I see it the entire thing is essentially supernatural and not assailable by reason. Thus the only thing to go on is my feeling.

And it nonetheless illustrates a point that I find striking - in the end, we must all choose our beliefs and actions according to our feelings about them, whether founded on rationality or not.

>>7421486
Well, I'm not Roman Catholic, I'm Orthodox. And I actually believe it. If people come to God as a way of rebelling against moral relativism, that's fine with me. That's great, in fact, it takes the glamour of rebellion away from Satan.

>>7421629
Your last point about choosing ways to live based on feeling is entirely correct. I just have a hard time buying that the global Catholic Church incorporated is the best way to live that you can get your hands on.

>>7420665
Life without God is meaningless and the only way to make sense of the word is through Christianity, or rather thomostic philosophy.

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>>7421635
in defense of the Catholics, with their existence and survival scripture is fulfilled

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house."

>>7421612
I understand that about evolution as well. And that's an essentially accurate representation of the ancient world and religion's place in it. But I think that you have done religion the disservice of believing that it has not also undergone transformations as a result of selective pressures in those thousands of years from then 'til now. If old religion is not fit, new religion will be, under a different name and guise. But it will have to be there, because the essential aspect of its fitness lies in the fact it addresses the inborn spiritual needs of its host.

This is not say, by the way, that such a spiritual need is an epiphenomenon or otherwise pointless. That is only one possible interpretation, and again, one I find improbable.

>>7421621
The writing here is so bad I don't think I can reply to it in good faith. Sorry?

>>7421648
Their religion said it wouldn't die and it's still here so it's true? That goes for like every belief system under the sun.

>>7421659
ah, and yet evil is in the world

is it not God's will to also bring evil?

all things have their time and their season under the sun

>>7421635
Suggest better then.

>>7421666
Satanism.

>>7421657
It's just a couple autocorrects, nigga. I was saying that religion worked, historically, for most people, but do you want to be like most people? With the world changing as it is, adhering to something that worked for poor Romans and feudal peasants may not be the best way to protect your neck.

You get to be forgiven every time.

It's pretty neat.

>>7421672
>>7421666
>666

Jesus Christ!

>>7420685
That isn't how it works though.

You can't have atheists being edgelords by rebelling against Christianity and then have LARPing Christians be edgelords by rebelling against an atheistic status quo.

There is a double negative involved there. What you call LARPing Christians are just people setting back the clock. The only reason they seem off-colour to you is because it's just a change. It has nothing to do with the content of that change, only the form, only the fact that it exists. Change is confusing in both directions, but if the content of a change is better then it makes no sense to perform reductive statements about it.

You're just looking at history incorrectly, not recognising religion as the default, and therefore not seeing historically momentary bouts of atheism as simply a provisional drawdown in the sense that it exists only to be corrected, and so when the correction begins, because you have that upside-down perception of history or dialectic or whatever you will call it, you mistakenly reject it.

Theism is the thesis of history. Atheism is the antithesis of history. Religious renaissance is the synthesis. That's not something which is ever going to change or come into a different way because it's just as fundamental as the chemical structure of matter. It's literally just the way things are at the most absolutely basic level.

To reject it is pretty much to deny your own humanity.

>>7421666
If you're on 4chan I doubt you're too old to seek a little more.

Various esoteric traditions, Judaism, Buddhism, new age spirituality as outlined by RA Wilson, Stirner's egoism, even just joining a universalist congregation that's open to spiritual seeking and trying to do good in the community could be more worth your young life's blood than cleaving to the first thing that rolls by.

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Spiderman knows.

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What does Christianity think of pic related?

$cientology is the real test. It's like judgment day IRL.

>>7421685
>all those assertions
Religion HAS been the default, but hey, change is confusing :^)

>>7421685
i disagree with this on the basis that change and being a progressive is not necessarily a requirement for time to pass along

>>7421685
But this is completely made up and riddled with inaccurate metaphors. There is no thesis of history. The most absolute basic level goes a little bit deeper than which direction you prostrate yourself at 6 a.m. Yes, almost all if not all cultures have had religious elements, but that doesn't necessarily mean religion is somehow "superior." Nor does it mean that the more faithful people in the world, the better the world shall be.

Your argument seems to be "it's always been this way, so why change now?"

>>7421701
anybody who has visited central Illinois would agree

the world is freaking gigantic

>>7421687
>>7421687
This is implying you know my personal history, which due to the content of your post, it is obvious you do not

>>7421708
But he used big words!

Christians are intellectuals too, remember. Don't go getting all impressed and putting on airs when your Jewish college professors tell you we came from monkeys now, you hear, boy?!

>>7421712
It doesn't assume that at all. I just doubt you're 80 and have lived with every less dogmatic spirituality under the sun.

>>7421692
careful now, Ur gonna hurt yourself with that edge

>>7421692
bretty good tbf :DDDDD

>>7420665
I'll post my Catholic reading list later. You should find it useful if you truly wish to understand faith.

>>7421698
The default never changes. That's why it's the default.

>>7421701
I never implied that it was.

>>7421708
>There is no thesis of history.
It's clear you've given that quite a bit of thought and aren't just experiencing a knee-jerk reaction to a truth which is too loud for you to hear.

>Your argument seems to be "it's always been this way, so why change now?"
Reality is how it is out of necessity. This idea that reality is even somewhat inherently arbitrary is a symptom of mental illness.

>>7421715
>Christians are intellectuals too, remember.
>ignorant to the fact that all mathematicians, philosophers, and scientists up to a point were devoutly religious and did all of their work in the name of God.
Again, religion is the default. Intellectualism is deeply intertwined with religion, especially Christianity. If you had even a basic knowledge of history you would recognise that fact. So many things which you take for granted today were products of Christian intellectualism.

>>7421732
We've all seen your damn list you spammer.

>>7421719
What you're asking me to do before deciding what I believe in is something so incredibly difficult to attain that it's really not helpful to go by that standard, because I am looking for something to believe in the interim, which as it happens, by your definition, will be most of my f****** life. so while i am Catholic now I remain open to alternatives and I think that's a good way to move forward without being stuck in perpetual useless agnosticism.

That's like asking scientists not to make a thesis and perform experiments or try to invent technologies based on it just because there might be better alternative theses out there when we created airplanes we were actually operating on an incorrect thesis of how lift is achieved

>>7421682
what?

>>7421732
anon will keep a lookout i am interested i am sort of biased against aquinas largely for his 'just war' theory

the end of his career has always resonated with me:

"On 6 December 1273 at the Dominican convent of Naples in the Chapel of Saint Nicholas after Matins Thomas lingered and was seen by the sacristan Domenic of Caserta to be levitating in prayer with tears before an icon of the crucified Christ. Christ said to Thomas, "You have written well of me, Thomas. What reward would you have for your labor?" Thomas responded, "Nothing but you, Lord." [49][50] After this exchange something happened, but Thomas never spoke of it or wrote it down. Because of what he saw, he abandoned his routine and refused to dictate to his socius Reginald of Piperno. When Reginald begged him to get back to work, Thomas replied: "Reginald, I cannot, because all that I have written seems like straw to me"[51] (mihi videtur ut palea).[52] What exactly triggered Thomas's change in behavior is believed by Catholics to have been some kind of supernatural experience of God.[53]"

>>7421738
I'm just suggesting you try more things while unmoored from the church, for your own good. It's really no skin off my nose, and you're probably not important enough to wreck the world with your bad thesis.

>>7421736
>>Reality is how it is out of necessity. This idea that reality is even somewhat inherently arbitrary is a symptom of mental illness.

this is an interesting point

>>7421736
>>Again, religion is the default.
No, this is incorrect.

Perhaps the historian's perspective on life, and humankind, and history is not the best perspective.

>>7421738
"
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

God is an implied position as long as we're inside the framework of western philosophy

Every single relevant position has relied on an absolute being, whatever they choose to call it

>>7421743
You seem to have some kind of nearly pathological desire to believe that being in a church makes it impossible to experience other religions. that to me seems the paragon of ignorance and inexperience.

>>7421749
>>7421648
>>7421625
>>7421608
stop

>>7421741
Just war was not Aquinas, it was Augustine and desu it's bretty gud

>>7421752
this is becuase of the nature of philosophy, i think there is much greek atheist philosophy

here is what Pontius Pilate said to Jesus

"Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Pilate saith unto him,

>>What is truth?"

>>7421745
>this is an interesting point
It's a completely banal point actually.

>No, this is incorrect.
You feel this way because you have rejected your humanity. Religion is NOT the default for animals. It is only so for humans. Only when homo sapiens evolve past being mere animals into being human beings does religion become the default. Religion is in fact responsible for that evolution. It is the singular bridge from animalism to humanism.

To reject it as the default is to do nothing more than to reject one's humanity.

>>7421745
Saying that nothing can be arbitrary is insanely arbitrary. You would need omniscience yourself to make such a judgement. You certainly don't have to be mentally ill to think some things just are what they are due to circumstances.

>>7421754
I put my time in with churches. What they say about serving two masters is true. You can have one foot in the church and one foot elsewhere, but you're not a fully engaged member of the body of Christ while doing that. You're a flight risk.

>>7421760>>7421752

i'm sorry, i meant to say this is because the nature of existence

>>7421765
If you're implying that acknowledging truth immediately acknowledges Being, then yeah that's pretty much it

>>7421762
>What they say about serving two masters is true. You can have one foot in the church and one foot elsewhere, but you're not a fully engaged member of the body of Christ while doing that. You're a flight risk.
Kinda like the "new age" type people. Creating an amalgam of different religions without any real dedication. You don't tend to get very far with that.

>>7421762
what i'm saying is that i posit there have been atheists since adam and even bore children, and before Aristotle was born

I don't believe, but if I did I'd be catholic simply because it's the most philosophically consistent religion, but I understand that it wouldn't be really a religion for me, emptied of all the practises it'd be just another philosophical current I'd subscribe to.

Surely I'd never be protestant, all that bibilical literalism repulses me.

>>7421761
I don't think anyone really denies that theism is necessary in human evolution

But what if the abandonment of religion is also a requirement to progress beyond a certain point?

>>7421772
this pretty much
most of catholic philosophy is a valid philosophical position without any faith

where it comes to a head is the historicity of Christ, but the groundwork before that is all metaphysics

Religion is mostly mythologized metaphysics anyway

>>7421773
You have a superficial understanding of religion in the first place to view it as something to be abandoned.

Don't get me wrong I don't mean that in a 'we need to cling to that which is familiar because my change causes great dissonance to my animal brain.'

It's deeper than that. Religion is the core. The light. If you're 'abandoning' religion somewhere along the line, your idea of religion was simply in the first place shallow.

>>7421781
I wasn't arguing for anything really, I'm a theist personally

But I don't consider historical hindsight to be a knockdown argument for what you're trying to prove, you need to do better

>>7421786
You're a theist. In this capacity you may as well identify as pagan. Deistic noncommittal theism is antithetical to history in the same manner that atheism is to theism in a more narrow capacity.

Your lack of commitment with religion is that which disables you from seeing the truth in this instance.

>>7421762
You say that like it is a bad thing. Yet even as a catholic I am taught that all I owe is to the divine and not to works if men such as churches.

>>7421779
>Religion is mostly mythologized metaphysics

well one can say this, or the inverse (like many historians explain the "greek miracle") from mythos to logos. I think instead that religion requires a set of practices, or rules to follow unlike metaphysics. Although one could say that from a metaphysical groundwork you can always derive certain ethical prescription.

>>7421768
New Age is a huge umbrella. A lot of those people don't believe every religion so much as they acknowledge the commonalities but ultimately reject them all.

>>7421771
Wat

>>7421781
The "light" has been accessed through religion as we know it, but saying that religion as we know it is the ONLY way to access whatever part of reality or our brains the light resides in is an enormous assertion that reflects a lack of reading and/or imagination.

>>7421796
>is antithetical to history

And that would matter why? Christianity's concept of good and evil is a transposition of the pagan warrior spirit's concepts of good and bad, so in that respect Christianity was antithetical to "history."

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>>7421805
That feeling when I've found books on Eastern religions in the "New Age" section in book stores.

>>7421811
Or Judaism's concepts of good and evil, I should clarify.

>>7421811
No. Christianity's good and evil is based on ressentiment, stifling individual, and thus social, growth.

>>7421798
Aren't you the same guy who said you never looked into Buddhism because you only know Buddhists who you consider sorta annoying and you're "fine with regular spiritual enlightenment, thank you"?

>>7420665
>>7420666

I was p lucky to grow up as one as well. The overwhelming positivist culture is too hegemonic and harmful for it to likely be passed otherwise.

But I don't feel like telling you about my faith. I'm a sinner, I masturbate a lot. I'm working it. That's the gist of it. Working it. We're works in progress, and when we stop working towards progress, we're spiritually dead.

Also,

1. Love thy neighbor
2. Love thy God
(less important but still important 3.) Holy communion and Reconciliation (which can fit under #2 honestly)

Theology beyond that is a fun curiosity but highly unimportant, other than to brace the church against the attacks of external philosophers and scientists.

The mantra of today is "Love thyself", and being religious, Catholic being one of the best of them imo, is the only cure. Atheistic humanism is an oxymoron, but nobody will admit it because everyone wants the humanism.

>>7420665
Required Reading:
>The Bible (Douy-Rheims)
>Catechism of the Catholic Church
>Parts of the Summa Theologica (Specifically Part 1 and Part 3).

Apologetics:
>Handbook of Catholic Apologetics-Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli
>The Everlasting Man-Chesterton
>Orthodoxy-Chesterton
>Catholicism-Journey Into the Heart of the Faith- Robert Barron

Theology:
>Summa Theologica-St. Thomas Aquinas
>City of God-Augustine
>The Works of St. Anselm
>On the Incarnation-St. Athanasius
>Defense Against the Arians-St. Athanasius
>The Consolation of Philosophy-Boethius
>Pensees-Pascal
>Introduction to Christianity and Jesus of Nazareth Series by Joseph Ratzinger

Biography/Conversion works:
>The Confessions-St. Augustine
>Apologia Pro Vita Sua-John Henry Newman
>The Seven Storey Mountain-Thomas Merton

Historical/Sociological works:
>The Formation of Christendom-Christopher Dawson
>The Dividing of Christendom-Christopher Dawson
>History of the Catholic Church-James Hitchcock
>Keepers of the Keys of Heaven: A History of the Papacy

Literature:
> Shusaku Endo- Silence
>The Divine Comedy-Dante Alighieri
>The Works of Flannery O'Connor-Flannery O'Connor
>The Power and the Glory-Graham Greene
>Diary of a Country Priest-Georges Bernanos
>The Works of G.K. Chesterton
>The Moviegoer-Walker Percy
>Lancelot-Walker Percy
>The Lord of the Rings-J.R.R. Tolkien
>The Book of the New Sun-Gene Wolfe
>Brideshead Revisited-Evelyn Waugh
>The Canterbury Tales-Chaucer
>A Canticle for Liebowitz-Walter M. Miller
>Tears of the Prodigal Son- Ivan Gundilic

Mysticism:
>Collected writings of Meister Eckhart
>The Dark Night of the Soul-St. John of the Cross
>Collected Writings- St. John of the Cross
>The Interior Castle- St. Teresa of Avila
>Revelations of Divine Love- Julian of Norwich
>New Seeds of Contemplation- Thomas Merton
>No Man is an Island-Thomas Merton

>>7421832
That would be a negative. My bro is in fact Buddhist, so I am passing acquainted with it.

this man is based

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcMjLgeWNwqL2LBGS-iPb1A

>>7421805
>an enormous assertion that reflects a lack of reading and/or imagination.
That or the opposite.

>And that would matter why? Christianity's concept of good and evil is a transposition of the pagan warrior spirit's concepts of good and bad, so in that respect Christianity was antithetical to "history."
There is a point at which conservatism is no longer conservative but primitive. This line is often prematurely drawn as people understand the distinction connotatively where they should know it denotatively, but Christianity did not degenerate pagan religion, it civilised it.

>>7421818
Stifling individual growth is responsible for social growth though. You have an immature way of thinking.

>>7421895
>Stifling individual growth is responsible for social growth though
How so? And why should I care for others in such a way that it impedes me and makes me resentful of them?

>>7421862
>only western theologians and saints

Poor display desu, what about Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics?

>>7421908
They're shitskins so they don't matter.

The universe has one Creator, God. God is love.
"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."
Jesus Christ is the express image of God, born as a man, so that God's nature may be revealed to men. Jesus is the perfect expression of God's character, radiance and goodness.
God is the arbiter of perfect morality and justice, and as such he requires a sacrifice for the evils and injustices committed by men.
"All men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God;"
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16
Jesus Christ gave himself over to death, by the will of our God in heaven, as a sacrifice for every evil action committed by men.

Jesus taught that we are meant to turn from our sins and ask for forgiveness, and God, in his perfect goodness, is always willing to forgive. Praise be to God.

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."

When we turn from our sins we are made children of God in heaven. We can have a Father-son relationship with Him, and hear his voice. It is God's will to be close to us, and we can draw near to him. God is alive and active in our lives, and we have angels watching over us.

From personal experience, I have felt an angel touch my face in meditation, when I was medititating with the mantra "Help me out of my body." I never felt so loved, until later when I became a Christian, and felt the depth of love that living God has for us. God is the truth of this reality, and Jesus Christ his son who came in the flesh, was crucified, and rose to heaven.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

>>7421610
>>7421594

>>7420685
>The only way they can rebel is by LARPing as catholic reactionaries.

This, more or less. They found out they can't be spechul snowflakes by being atheist on 4chan, so they're Alex Keatoning it up to try and distinguish themselves.

>>7421908
recommend additions. Also Catholic only

>>7421907
This. I don't doubt for a second that most people are shitty if left to their own devices, and I feel no compulsion to secularize the world, but fuck me if I'm going to yoke myself to the church after coming to the conclusion that it will inhibit my personal growth,

>>7421971
This is because humans have a sinful nature. Our only growth is movement towards God, and away from mammalian desires. Yoke yourself to Christ, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."-Matthew 11:30.

All of his commandments are based on love, and they are for our own good. We are rewarded and punished spiritually for our behaviours and labors. Christians make physical sacrifices for spiritual reward.

"For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."

The spiritual blessings of devoting your life to Christ's commandments are immense. The best feelings of love you can imagine.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."

Spiritual fulfillment is what we are all after, and obedience to Jesus is how we find it; by loving and exalting God instead of ourselves, and loving our neighbour, and esteeming our neighbour as greater than ourselves.

>>7421999
I used that "yoke" imagery intentionally because I'm familiar with those verses.

You don't need piles of dogma and corruption to love your neighbor, not start shit, be nice, seek a standard of goodness, keep your promises and exercise some discipline. The fact that most religions support the same things suggests that humans value these things to one degree or another, not that they value them because (insert entire Bible here).

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>>7421685
>>7420685

>>7422027
>>>/pol/

>>7422027
This doesn't seem too drastically different from /lit/ desu. I always envisioned /pol/ to be a minefield of ignorant backcountry hillbillies.

>>7422027
Jesus Christ, what a cesspool.

>>7422017
The catholic church has a history of corruption, but we should follow Christ and his gospels, and the Bible, the true word of God.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

It is far easier to love your neighbour wholly and perfectly when God gives you the Holy Spirit. For the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace...

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

>>7421950
But Christian socialism is actually pretty big on /lit/

>>7422096
Still a minority.

Imagine pretending to believe in something just because someone somewhere might come along and accuse you of wearing a certain type of hat.

>>7421971
>>7421907
These.

>>7422064
The entire Christian enterprise has a history of corruption, schism and feuding that doesn't reflect the biblical claim that Christians will be known by their love for one another and that the core values of Christianity will hold them together. If Jesus was a who he said he was, then his followers are deep in hiding.

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>implying religion isn't a more logical foundational belief system than empirical science

Why should I jerk off in an unfounded self contained logically inconsistent system when we've been graced with the capacity to transcend our finitude by generalizing into the one?

>>7422120
If they followed the commands of Christ, they would love one another, and be one body.
If they don't follow the commands of Christ, can they be called Christians?

>>7422109
I don't think they're the minority on /lit. You have to remember that some of the best, fairly conservative Christian thinkers were socialists. Polanyi, Dostoevsky, John Milbank, etc. Now this is very different from Marxist socialism, but any Christian who reads and is of a reactionary bent knows that

A: Capitalism is cancerous to Christianity (see Luzhin, from Crime and Punishment)

B: an economy of landed gentry is simply unworkable in a hyper industrial world

This makes socialism very attractive to Christians. It can't be of a drastically centralized sort, but at the same time it is of a sort that works to remove money from economics.

>>7422133
/thread

>>7422141
Correct. Christians are a myth.

>>7422133
>why try to be specific when we can just wave our hands at questions and make them go away?
Wew lad.

>>7422141
Aye, that is what being a schismatic is such a big deal. Even if you aren't a heretic in any other way, being a schismatic is alone a massive crime against the Body of Christ.

>>7422141
Being Christian is not an absolute standpoint, it's a work in progress, you try to life in the imitation of Christ, but you'll fail sometimes if not always but still working towards the objective of a godly life and that makes you a Christian. Coming to terms (not condoning, but engaging with them) with your fallible nature is kinda the starting point of Christianity, otherwise why would anybody need Christ?

This is pretty basic, and that's coming from a non-believer.

>>7420685
It's partially a reaction to identity politics. Look at the "Chrsitian" /pol/acks, for instance. For them Christianity is part of a larger White Identity in a struggle against Islam, Feminism, Jews, or whoever the enemy of the day is.

Others can't function when faced with the idea of moral relativism and the lack of a transcendent meaning to life, and turn to Christianity to cure their existential malaise.

>>7422157
Christianity is a tough discipline. I myself am no great Christian, but I have heard the voice of Jesus commanding me, in plain english. I have disobeyed it, and been left spiritually bereft; I have obeyed it, and been rewarded greatly.

>>7422172
/pol/ really likes Christian Arabs, though

>>7422166
Church schisms aren't just minor personal failings though. They're a direct contradiction of scripture and imply that at least one of the parties involved is making a huge move away from Christ.

But who really cares, since nobody actually follows all the guidelines in Paul's letters anyway. Propriety is more important than the god they supposedly believe is watching.

>>7422157
>why try to be specific when we can just wave our hands at questions and make them go away?

Literally nobody has said that

Project your prejudices against religious thought harder please

>>7422172
It's because there is no "White" identity so they have to craft a reactionary one or a materialist one. Those who aren't socially acceptable can go to the extreme of otakuism or being a neo-reactionary faggot who whines about everything and does crusader roleplaying on anime imageboards.

>>7422176
Of course they do, Christian Arabs are fighting against Islam while the /pol/acks are sitting at home posting infographics about the Jews.

>>7422166
It's true, I apologize, I shouldn't have been so quick to speak in absolutes. I meant that those who use the Church for power and create division between Christians are not representing Christ's will for his followers.

>>7422179
>Church schisms aren't just minor personal failings though

I never said "minor", or implied lesser value. Schisms happen and have happened, like everything as a result of human error, whether cause by greed, ignorance or hubris, and they're a sin no different than the others. And that's why there's a lot, and I mean a lot, of ecumenical work between churches, trying to repair the damage. Actually we're at the closest we've ever been since the Eastern schism to the reunion of the Church, I'm not saying it's happening tomorrow but very significant progress have been made towards that goal.

>>7422193
>Christian Arabs are fighting against Islam
Where?

>>7422172
Christianity is transcendent meaning to life, not just provision of it.

And it's not that this recent Christianity thing is reactionary, that's failing to see the bigger picture. It's like if an animal is at rest and something attacks it and it reflexively blows back at that which attacked it. What you're doing when you claim the Christianity here is just reactionary is you're only seeing the reaction of the attacked animal and failing to realise that it was actually an organism, completely self aware, though dormant in its rest.

You're (perhaps inadvertently) viewing Islam, feminism, 'Jews', etc. as a positive thing to which this Christianity is negative, when in reality, the dormant animal of Christianity was the default, Islam, feminism, and 'Jews' the negative, and this recent Christianity therefore the positive.

Thesis, antithesis, synthesis.

>>7422223
>Islam, feminism, and 'Jews' the negative, and this recent Christianity therefore the positive
Why?
>you're only seeing the reaction of the attacked animal and failing to realise that it was actually an organism, completely self aware, though dormant in its rest
This doesn't argue at all against the fact that this surge of Christfaggotry on 4chan stems from reactionary politics.

>>7422223
Does that mean Islam is positive in the Middle East where it's the default but Christianity isn't?

>>7422192
>It's because there is no "White" identity so they have to craft a reactionary one or a materialist one.

Since 4chan is a home for many social outcasts who can't connect with others, it's in a way unsurprising to see both extremes on this site.

>>7422223
No, Islam is a lot higher on my list of bad things than Christianity is, since Christians don't engage in nearly as many beheadings, stonings, and hangings as Muslims do.

>>7422254
Drone strikes, propping up dictators, and funding terrorists are pretty bad though.

>>7422207
The church has been so broken for so long that the idea that it doesn't inspire a shred of faith that the ideals at its center are special. That's the point. Jesus didn't say he's build his church and then it would kinda get all fucked up but somebody would patch it up after a couple thousand years. Paul didn't say "and you might know them by their love of you haven't had an argument in a while."

>>7422190
That's not even what projecting is. Read a book. Just made this thread lit-related after just a couple hundred posts, so you're welcome.

>>7422260
Nobody does those things in the name of Christ though. If anything those are the responsibility of secular power-brokers, Zionist Jews and Zionist-indoctrinated backwater evangelicals.

>>7422269
Are evangelicals not Christians? And you said Christians don't engage in those things but they are Christian.

>>7422260
I'll still take them over Islam.

Nominally Christian leaders in Western governments have done plenty of evil. But, that does not mean that Islam should be apologized for. It's a case of bad and worse.

>>7422264
But shit happens you know, that's one thing you can count on. It wouldn't have happened if the Church(es) were more "holy", but men most of the times aren't and the church is comprised of men. It's not a hard concept really.

>>7422274
Obama is not an evangelical.

ITT: Christfaggots and atheists debating about subjects they don't have much knowledge about.

>>7422240
I was playing the devil's advocate though it's not like I personally disagree with the sentiment. Though I see it from what I feel is a more matured sociological lens. It's that those things represent the falling apart of (our Western) culture. They're all categorically different from each other, to some respect, but relatively speaking, they represent the same thing.

>This doesn't argue at all against the fact that this surge of Christfaggotry on 4chan stems from reactionary politics.
It does, it just does it from a top down approach where it's not denying that the thing which you are calling 'reactionary politics' is not factually occurring, it just says that this is not the right name for it, that it isn't antithetical politics, but 'proactionary' politics.

So there is ambiguity from your outsider perspective which disables you from it clicking that it's not reaction, but proaction. They look identical from that outsider perspective though, that's the problem.

>>7422253
Absolutely, yes.

Christianity is still an objectively superior religion to either Judaeism or Islam, but Islam is the dominant force in that part of the world and it is wrong to attempt to inject one dominant force into another.

>>7422254
Yes, Christianity is leagues more civilised than any of its counterparts, though those things which you think are evil may be evil, but they may not necessarily be wrong. There exists necessary evils, but there does not exist necessary wrongs. In other words your understanding of good and bad is very immature. You have not completely separated emotion from logic in that regard to any sort of sufficient extent yet.

>>7422274
It's arguable that they're not biblical Christians, and k say this as a nonbeliever. Middle-American evangelical Christianity is dominated by spite, identity politics and ignorance. There are schools of Christianity that do much better.

>>7422277
>shit happens
Thousands and thousands of times, it happens. So it's not fair to hold the church to a higher standard than any other body of men? Does God not guide it? Is it not supposed to be the ultimate testimony to his power and goodness the way the nation of Israel was in times of old? "In the world, but not of it,"

My biggest bugaboo about Christianity is the concept of heaven and hell, and how those seem to be the driving forces behind the whole thing. Suppose those two concepts were removed from the doctrine, what would we be left with? Would it be closer to humanitarianism? What would we focus on if there was no afterlife, making this world better? It seems alot of people worship and serve God to arrive in heaven and avoid hell, but if those were no longer concepts would you still truly worship and love Him? Do you seek God because you truly want to know him? When you ask for forgiveness is it coming from a true conviction of the heart or just to save your ass? Who do you really love, and where do your motives really lay? I just can't see the integrity in a reward/punishment faith and I wonder how many christians really do a personal inventory on this matter.

>>7422296
It's supposed to be but men fail. God guides, God's word commands, men in their free will disobey.

>>7422296
God guides every believer. But it's up to themselves to follow that guide. It always boils down to the "libero arbitrio" which, I guess, from a protestant perspective might be difficult to grasp.

>>7422294
>though those things which you think are evil may be evil, but they may not necessarily be wrong.
I'd love to hear your apology for the beheadings, stonings, crucifixcions, and public lashings.

>>7422305
Why do you think God guides it if it fucks up so consistently? Shouldn't his will at least be apparent?

>>7422311
That just sounds like dodging accountability.

>>7422294
How can God allow something that's evil when morality stems from God?

Don't be such an apologetic. If God says that this person must be killed for the religion, then that is good.

>>7422317
It keeps the insane tribal politics in check. That tribal, honor-based culture needs a scary strong hand to keep from devolving into constant warfare. Even secular dictators in the region do the same thing for that reason.

>>7422208
Syria

>>7422327
Like here?
http://www.mintpressnews.com/they-accept-us-as-we-are-christians-join-forces-with-muslim-group-hezbollah-to-fight-isis-in-lebanon/210088/

>>7422300
It's true, and I myself am guilty of this. I'm terrified of hell. The fear is what brought me to obedience. But when I am devoted to God and finding him I find He is purely loving, and ultimately good, and perfectly kind, and willing to accept me with open arms. I find that in the whole gamut of human emotion God's love is better than all. It's perfect bliss. He wants to love us as his own children.

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."

>>7422320
>That just sounds like dodging accountability

It isn't because it's always your fault if you fail, and you should repent to God. But the point is not to give up. It's like that motto: "Do it. Fail. Do it again. Fail better."
And again you're making me sound like a Catholic apologist, and it'd be funny since I am basically the most irreligious person I know.

>>7422327
Or here?
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/11/12/christians-muslims-assad-troops-fight-one-defend-biblical-town-isis/

Or here?
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/427304/christian-militia-assyrian-kurds-alliance-isis

>>7422320
God's will is made apparent to those who seek it. The Bible can also be considered a guide from God and church politics are often unbiblical. Men have free will to commit heresy.

>>7422334
Yeah neither of us is religious. You're missing the point, that it's not about the individual but about the testimony of the collective body of believers. As a unit they should show how living as you described makes them peaceful and satisfied, but they don't show that at all. This is a huge point in the New Testament, so it's not like ok just being nitpicky.

>>7422317
It's not direct apology, that's the thing you aren't grasping. There is evil in the world and to say that one can't do anything about it, at least not lest he more drastically pervert something else, is not necessarily apologetics for evil.

Like the anon below said, morality stems from God. Good and Evil are the domain of God. Man is only ever afflicted by them. But right and wrong, that is where Man resides. The question of Evil is above him. That's why, as I said, necessary evils do exist. Necessary wrongs do not.

>>7422321
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil#Augustinian_theodicy

>>7422339
All of them committing and accusing each other of heresy is a pretty far cry from a coherent church that can't help but be coherent around the teachings of Christ.

>>7422327
Or here?
http://www.ibtimes.com/christian-sunni-shia-meet-hezbollahs-non-denominational-military-branch-defending-2169257

>>7422347
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil#Augustinian_theodicy
You don't understand. If God ordains something, it cannot be evil whether it is to kill a group or show love to another. All that He permits is good and all that he forbids is bad.

Calling His commands or laws evil is apologeticism and stems from your Western-based bastardized "Christian" morality.

>>7422346
>As a unit they should show how living as you described makes them peaceful and satisfied

Nope, you're never satisfied in your faith or your works and you should never be because your life is always compared to the one of Jesus, the most perfect human there was. You'll be peaceful and satisfied in heaven, if you earn your place there.
It's a logical necessity to be always be unsatisfied. Have you ever heard of the concept of catholic guilt?

>>7422349
The Orthodox and Coptic Churches are the original Church. They were separated for so long because they misunderstood each other (the Orthodox churhc thought the Coptics were advocating monophysitism, the Coptics thought the Orthodox were advocating Nestorianism); but now they both recognize their differences are only semantic, and they are both the One, Truth Church. That they can be out of communion so long and still be identical in doctrine, and have totally compatible ceremony, religious art and music, bears witness to their consistency. If one of the early Christians were to attend Coptic or Orthodox liturgy, he'd feel perfectly comfortable, but with just about any other Church he would find it bizarre.

>>7420665
Fuck this sticky.

>>7422349
I wonder why they all use names other than Christianity for their religion. Why follow the Pope, or Martin Luther, instead of Christ? But it is not for me to judge any follower of Christ by any name.

>>7422351
Yeah, the Orthodox Church opposes Israel because of how they treat Arabic Christians (most Christians who are in Israel are Arabic).

>>7422333
Aye that is what I believe too, I believe all men and women have a deep yearning to find God and understand his love, this is something to goes beyond fear and doubt.

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I started out as Christian thanks to my parents, but soon found too much wrong with the basics of the theology, specifically the idea that a God would send some of his followers to any sort of hell if he was supposed to love them unconditionally, that and the anti gay stuff just seemed kinda pick and choosy to be real. Like if God said he loved everyone then he loves everyone, end of story.

>>7422374
Right on brother.

>>7422364
>If one of the early Christians were to attend Coptic or Orthodox liturgy, he'd feel perfectly comfortable

that's a pretty brash statement, considering that Orthodoxy follows all the first seven ecumenical councils the last one dating to the 8th century, pretty far in time for any early Christian. And even more so the Copts separate themselves in the 5th century, As it stands now the Churches which are the most thelogicaly close are the Orthodox and the Catholic.

>>7422371
So Christians are not fighting Islam. They're fighting radical Muslims with other Muslims, mainly Hizullah, Iran, Assad's forces, and Kurds.

>>7422382
Maybe you should consider Orthodox? The Orthodox Church doesn't consider hell a place, but a state. In fact they say everyone might end up in the same place, it's just heaven for those who love God, and hell for those who hate him or are ashamed to be loved by him.

>>7422359
No, it cannot be wrong, for humans anyway. It can be evil because God is transcendent.

It just goes back to the paradox trichotomy. Anytime you claim there is a contradiction in the nature of God, you are always at once failing to supply him with another fact of his nature. If he makes a stone which he cannot himself lift, he is not omnipotent, but if he is not omnipotent, then he is not transcendent, if he is not transcendent, then it is not even God we're discussing in the first place, and so on ad infinitum.

>>7422364
An early Christian wouldn't believe in the trinity or that Jesus was the son of God

>>7422390
no

>>7422382
>look at how 12 years old I am guys!
When the bait has officially reached the level where deliberately not trying to come off as bait is now exactly what it means to be bait.

>>7422384
Ecumenical Councils are formed to combat heresies. The heresies never came up in the Coptic Church so it isn't an issue. Iconoclasm, for example, never happened in the Coptic Church, so it wasn't important about the Seventh Ecumenical Council.

Councils are not about adding to Christianity, they're about combating people who want to add or take away from Christianity.

>>7422386
And Shi'as at that, who are alright as far as Muslims go. They even have postcards with Mohammed on them in Iran.

>>7422387
Oh, and by the way, while universal reconciliation isn't a doctrine in the Orthodox Church, it's not heresy either, it was preached by many saints.

>>7422393
Do you know anything about Christian history?

>>7422401
Hizbullah and Iran are Shi'a. Assad's forces are Sunni, Shi'a, and Alawi. Kurds are mostly Sunni and some Shi'a.

>>7422387
Neither Catholic nor Orthodox theology consider hell a place and it being a state devoid of God's love is basic teachings.
Anyway God is also considered perfect justice and questioning perfect justice is pretty dumb, assuming that is the attribute you consider God to have.
>>7422389
Why would you expect a logical answer to an illogical question anyway?
>>7422403
Have you not read the apostles or church fathers?

>>7422413
>Neither Catholic nor Orthodox theology consider hell a place
They used to. In fact, along with the filioque and the papacy, the doctrine of literal hellfire was something that started the schism.

>>7422413
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

It lets me hate fags and Jews without stopping to wonder why, and that's good enough for me.

>>7422403
Yes that's why I said so, you might try to read Ireneus or even the Epistles of Paul and see the divinty of Christ being professed.
Arianism became a thing later on.

>>7422401
Fact is they rejected the duophysism unlike the Catholic and Orthodox Church. Saying that they're closer to the Orthodox than the Catholic church is just a comment out of spite.
And Councils define they faith, there's a reason why the Nicean Creed is called this way.

>>7422426
Hear, hear, fellow white man.

>>7422429
This isn't Arianism. Christians during Jesus' life were not trinitarians. The trinity was a later addition to the faith.

>>7422435
Have you even read the Gospel of John? Like the very start of it. There's not the word "Trinity" in it, that's true but it's clearly implied.

>>7422422
Nah that's just Orthodoxy trying to rationalize a serious mistake that was the schism. Instead of returning to the mother church you seek such tiny things to make sense of it and to dick measure.

>>7422444
>>7422423

>>7422454
THE GOSPEL

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

4 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we eheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Now tell me the early chirstians didn't believe Jesus was God

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Because atheism is 2sophist4me.

>>7422463
Seriously?

Learn Greek, read scholarship on early Christianity, read the interpretations of early members of the faith.

>>7422464
>ultimately you must have faith when reason fails you.
Didn't work for me. Could you point me to something tangible that suggests the particular faith you speak of is special?
>Reeeeeeee why do you hate god he loves you so much and you're breaking his heart just have faith you faggot degenerate!!!!1!!!!

>>7422479
>read the interpretations of early members of the faith

which all agreed to the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, man where are you fucking taking you clues.

Anyway I'm off to bed,

>>7422464
That image describes Christianity with 100% accuracy.

>>7422479
You read it as you probably haven't.

>>7422464
>>7422464
>Christianity
>not sophistry to engage the common people in a toxic cycle of guilt over imaginary cosmic transgressions so that their rulers can do as they please
It is efficient, but it's also sophistry.

>>7422483
Tangible, no; I have heard Jesus' voice guiding me in plain english, and I have felt the hands of an angel on my face in meditation. I felt so loved, it wasn't of myself. I have felt God's love in prayer and meditation. This is coming from someone who was an atheist at the age of 21.

>>7422534
I can experience similarly extreme sensations that have nothing to do with Christianity by meditating in an isolation tank. Dead serious about this. You've managed to enter certain brain-states while holding onto a expectation that what you experience will be cosmically meaningful and relate to what you know of Christianity. That's it dude.

>Aristotle + Mercy + Peace

I like the philosophy, but can't stand the dogma or the institutions.

>>7422555
Before I was a Christian or believed in any God or angels I felt two literal warm hands on my face. I know the feeling of being loved by another. I wasn't even sure whether it was an angel at the time.

>>7422555
You don't enter those states and you don't relive them often. It isn't an on off thing and they don't happen when you expect them or even need them.

>>7422568
>>7422175
Pure superstition.

>>7422568
You don't have to believe in it to have it suggested to you.

>>7422570
Thats just incoherent and suggest mental illness then. If God sent angels when you needed them, that would be one thing, but just getting randomly groped by something invisible that chooses to have you feel a physical sensation is just not that meaningful.

Plenty of people say they feel dead relatives and spirits of bodies of water and trees but you don't believe in ghosts and nymphs, do you?

>>7422575
It only happened one time, and I was quite conscious when it happened.

>>7422580
Maybe they are with us more often than we realize, and they really do love us, and can express it when we are in a state to commune with them.

>>7422445
The schism is Latin fault. The powers they confer on the See of Saint Peter violate the Sixth Canon of the First Ecumenical Council, as well as the Second Canon of the Second Ecumenical Council. They succumbed to third temptation Satan offered Christ with the Donation of Constantine. The filioquie also has nothing supporting it, and was not in the original Creed that was established by the First Ecumenical Council.

>Writing in the 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia, Joseph Hontheim said that "theologians generally accept the opinion that hell is really within the earth. The Church has decided nothing on this subject; hence we may say hell is a definite place; but where it is, we do not know. " He cited the view of Saint Augustine of Hippo that hell is under the earth and that of Saint Gregory the Great that hell is either on the earth or under it.[55]
This view was also affirmed by Teurtullian and Aquinas.

The Catholic Church certainly acknowledges hell to be a state, not a place, but did not do so until the 20th Century.

>>7422585
Are you implying that your wakefulness means anything? People in the bible saw visions in dreams, so I hope not. You had a strange experience, but you're saying it implies a whole ton of metaphysical baggage.

>>7420665

Was brought up in the faith, got very much into it and devoted education and career track to it, faith shaken several years ago, right now beginning to re-examine what it means to me.

>>7422429
>Fact is they rejected the duophysism unlike the Catholic and Orthodox
It's literally semantics. miaphysitism is duophysitism. Saying Christ has one nature, fully human and fully divine, is the same as saying he was two natures, fully human and a fully divine. The disagreement was because we thought they were monophysites, and they thought we were Nestorians.

They are much closer, that is why both Orthodox and Coptics recognize each other as the One Church, whereas neither gives such recognition to the Roman Catholic Church.

>>7422596
Considering none of this about Angels and ancestors is remotely scriptural, I fail to see how it reinforces Christianity for you. Other faiths believe in guardian angels and ancestral ghosts, but Mathias are pretty fringe aspects of Christianity if they fit with it at all.

>>7422600
Well my experience since then is what verified the Christian faith to me and made me think that it was an angel. God is alive and good.

>>7422605
Psalm 91:11King James Version (KJV)

11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

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>>7422606
I can't even handle how basic and fedora I would have to sound to castigate you for this post.

Sincere theists are dumb, and knowing a lot about their own infighting doesn't make them smart. Peace.

>>7420665
Raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools from kindergarten to university. My family were all lapsed Catholics so I never took it seriously and even became an agnostic atheist in high school. I've returned to the Church, though, and it's mostly due to the Catholic role-playing on this board and /pol/. But I think it's serious this time. I actually had a kind of breakdown a few months ago because I got really scared about going to Hell for frequently committing the sin of fornication, and not having attended Mass or gone to confession for the past seven years.

>>7422616
I'm just describing my experience because I think its the closest thing to proof I can offer but how can I begin to describe Gods love, except that it is great, and I want you to experience it, but you have to believe He exists to find him, and Jesus is the way to him.

>>7422645
>he fell for the Pope-posting memes
There's always one.

>>7422610
>Ps 91
Careful with this one of course:
http://biblehub.com/niv/matthew/4.htm

>>7422649
I'd just say the same thing about what I feel when I meditate or exceed my previous limits in running, and you'd say I don't know what I'm talking about because yours is so much better.

>>7422616
Certainly you can entertain the position that creation has a creator, the Christian faith from there is that God is love, and he revealed his nature to us through Christ. You can be a scientific man and read the New Testament.

>>7422610
You took that quote completely out of context.

>>7422650
I'm weak. I have been memed into returning to the Catholic Church and hating Jews.

A god of THE Jews (you shall not have other gods before me. <--whoa whoa wait there are more than one!?)

Did not become THE God of all humanity.

>>7422667
The necessity of a creator is not remotely compelling. For all I know, the creative force is something far beyond my comprehension, or it may not exist at all. That te creative force is conveniently a single God who made me to understand him is an interesting, but not a compellingly true possibility.

What's with all the religion threads?

Go to /his/.

bump to kill the thread

>>7422696
our bump limit is more than 300 now?

>>7422681
Then why are there stories in the Bible of Jesus healing non-Jews?

>>7422681
They believe that an all-powerful, supreme god became human and was born from a mother. If that isn't crazy, I don't know what is.

>>7421610
Except that's what you are claiming--the supremacy of yourself.
>>7421612
>le democracy
>le current year!
>>7421635
Stop trolling, dear.
>>7421698
LE CURRENT YEAR!!!
>>7421715
There is no value whatsoever in secular and nontheistic works.
>>7421773
It isn't because atheism is objectively wrong.

>>7423008
>Christian love and scholarship
Top lel, get out of here you crucifix-tipper

>>7420665
Read Hegel OP

>>7422737
Christianity must be pretty "uhhh WTF" for the Jews. I imagine it's like watching a Japanese Domino's commercial.

>>7420665
Listan to Coltran's A Love Supreme, OP

>why try to be specific when we can just wave our hands at questions and make them go away?
That's exactly what empiricism does.
>>7422300
>i dont understand mysticism
>>7422382
Holy crap, you are uneducated.
>>7422483
>tangible
Pure stupidity.

>>7422742
topkek
>>7423024
It would be. Like the guy above said, their God now transformed into a Jew like them and screwed around for 40 or so years until he got murdered. lol

>>7423024
God got sick of the Jews when they killed Jesus.

I genuinely think that all the shit the Jews have had to put up with, including the Holocaust, is down to God having had it with them. I think the Crucifixion was the last straw, and after that the LORD basically said he wasn't going to protect them from misery.

The Jews have returned the favor by not believing in Him. Did you know that ethnic, genetic Jews have the highest rate of atheism in any ethnicity?

>>7423032
>That's exactly what empiricism does.

? Explain yourself.

>>7423024
That's the best aspect of religion. The way they view each other is "man, look at the batshit crazy nonsense they believe. No thinking person can believe it."

Of course, they're all right, there.

>>7423032
Empiricism doesn't necessarily claim to have an answer to every question you could ever raise, so no, it doesn't hand wave unless you go full fedora with it.

>>7423046
Empiricism, in its infinite pride, frequently claims to understand everything-- and thereby reduce and reorder everything to fit into it's system.

Then, a few years or even few centuries later, it turns its back on its previous claims only to make them again.

In the late 19th century, physicists earnestly believed they understood nearly everything. When they realized they didn't, they created Quantum Physics--which in turn created countless more things to egostroke over. That's how empiricism works: if something is beyond the system then it makes something up to fill the gaps. There is no modesty or patience in empiricism, only a sense of urgency to be right (according to its own solipsism which defines itself to be right, but requires others to discover its rightness.)
>>7423056
Except it does, and must to even function.

What would happen to empiricism if it ever admitted it were inherently wrong in any way? It would stop existing because the problems it set to answer could be answered through other means.

>>7423080
Empirical methods are just tools. People who haven't built their careers on claiming otherwise understand this.

>it must in order to function
Says who? Normal logic courses focus heavily on when those tools apply and when they don't. Perhaps you're confusing all other ways of thought with the burdens placed on you by your faith.

>>7423095
Tools that save face?

>>7423095
Also, empiricism is only a tool if accepted to be true.

>>7423111
If you want to take all the tools that stem from empiricism as valueless, give my guest. Humanity wasted a lot of time combining intuition with observation in much messier ways and learning much more slowly. I'm not even sure what your point is at this juncture.

Christianity is a symbolic representation of the human condition. The Gospel is man understanding his own predicament.

>>7422146
Just read C&P, how does luzhin represent capitalism being cancerious? Even the pawn brooking widow seems like a better candidate

>>7421065
You can view the writings as a series of cautionary, moralizing tales. Believing the supernatural side is completely unnecessary.

If you wanna skip the superstition all together I'd recommend Fear and Trembling by Kierkegaard, it really taught me the utility of blind faith even outside of a christen context.

>>7421220
Ah yes, theology. Where there's no wrong answers yet you can endlessly shitpost as if you have anything of value to add.

>>7423554
That's an immature religious standpoint. The superstitious and supernatural elements are the pinnacle of religious perception.

Not saying you're immature for thinking that, but just keep treading on down the rabbit hole.

>>7421288
>no discrepancies in the bible
Do they offer courses in delusion when you study theology? I suppose you need to justify the thousands of dollars you wasted on 'education'

>>7423568
So is impossible to learn anything of the moral utility of religious texts without believing in magic? Rightio m8

>>7422689
They get laughed out of /his/, and the mods here are lazy shits

>>7422610
M-muh context

>>7422575
>in a religion that dismisses logic as human folly
>will never consider their hallucinationatory experience to be human folly

>>7423578
No, but looking at religious texts only to aim towards moral utility is selling yourself short is all.

It's like using honesty as a method of persuading people. You paradoxically get better results if it's not methodical at all.

>>7423603
That's assuming there's a magical absolute hovering over my head. Consider this; every interpretation of every holy text will pick and choose passages and tenants that don't fit in with their beliefs. How is me overlooking the claims of magic detracting from the moral utility? Will I improperly learn to not covet just because I'm not threatened with eternal suffering?

>>7423621
>Will I improperly learn to not covet just because I'm not threatened with eternal suffering?
Yes.

Supernature is not magic.

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>>7423650
>Supernature is not magic

>>7423661
You're calling it magic as a derogative and you aren't even aware of that. It's no wonder you aren't religious. Your level of understanding simply isn't at par.

>>7423766
Do your handlers know you're here? Last I checked, magic and supernature are similes. In case "your level of understanding simply isn't at par", I call it magic because that's what it is, supernatural phenomena. Please tell me you've studied theology because this is precious.

And by the way I hope you know what irony is, because that reply is a doozy.

>>7423801
Magic is not supernature. Magic is some sort of denigrated idea of the supernatural.

The supernatural is inspired. The idea of magic carries a connotation of purposelessness. They are different and the only reason you pair them is because you begin from a position of rejecting the supernatural in a way where you must insult it in order to even bring it up.

>>7423820
>"Magic" has bad connotations in my belief and you hurt muh feelings.
Doesn't mean they are different things. Magic is supernatural, your spiritual baggage doesn't effect the definition of a word.

"Supernature is inspired" How do christfags find so much meaning in meaningless sentiment? If I was a Wiccan then magic would be "inspired" just the same. It appears your understanding isn't at par friend.

>>7423833
Only in the least common denominator definition like one you'd find in a dictionary.

Supernatural in the sense of philosophy or theology does not particularly include the idea of magic.

It's the difference between what is biblical and what is merely fictional. But, of course, for someone like you, they are the same thing. I think you have Aspergers.