In the future will there be more Amanda Lears?

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>>8863520

Here is the before:

https://artinfluencer.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/800px-lear.jpg?w=740

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>>8863520

>>8863520
Ugh, she has a fucking great body wtf

Being stealth requires being hyper passable, and if you pass that well, youve earned it imo

Transpeople were not nearly as visible then, so passing would have been a bit easier.
And who would want to be known as a tranny anyway??
Im working towards/planning to be/hoping I am stealth, because being openly trans sucks, and if you have any sort of career dealing with the public or anything, it sucks ten times as much

Trans people arent going to have successful careers in entertainment (actor, singer, etc)

>>8863520
Also its easy for trannies to clock other trannies, since we know what to look for

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>>8863520
Yes, I'll be one of them. But it'll be easier for me because I probably won't be famous.

>>8864917
How do passers earn it?

>>8863520

>a tranny with hips like that

H O W ?
O
W
?

>>8864919
exactly the opposite. Cis people clock more than trannies. Trannies are desensitized and delusional and for them, most hons pass.

>>8864929
You'll always be trans though

>>8864956
You earn being steath if youre hyperpassable because you lucked up with godtier genetics
>>8865047
Might be silicone
>>8865286
Lol nope
Are you by chance retarded

>>8863520
>those are contradicted by fellow famous trans April Ashley
What an asshole.

>>8865516
Genetics aren't earned.

>>8866762
she deserved to be outed

What pisses me off about bitches like Lear and Brianna Wu is that they'll jump to defend dumb tranny shit and yet, act so defensive and ashamed about being trannies themselves.

Just stop being so hypocritical and own up to yourselves.

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>>8863520
has anyone ever considered the intersex option?

if her situation is the result of a chromosomal condition, it was the norm even in her time for it to be kept private

trans and intersex often intersect and both groups are entitled to privacy

I think the goal should be that one day it's considered impolite to ask about one's genitals and chromosomes, especially since technology should be so advanced everyone can pass so who cares

>>8865047
she could very well have partial Androgen Insensitivity syndrome (PAIS) or Klinefelter's

>>8866874
Have you ever found a narrative you can't fallaciously retcon?

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>>8863541
Why are cute boys always the ones to go tranny ;_; ?

>>8866781
Nope to all of this. Stealth isn't shame.

>>8866874
>has anyone ever considered the intersex option?
Pretty much nobody ever considers the intersex option, which is fucked up since it's way more common than transsexuality. Not only are people trying to deny others their right to basic medical privacy, they're doing so out of the false assumption that they're something they aren't.

>>8866908
So if someone asked you, were you born a male, would you lie?

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>>8866899
it feels like you're talking to me as if you think I'm someone you know

what's fallacious about asking questions?

Caroline "Tula" Cossey is a famous trans woman who was stealth and she admitted she has Klinefelter's, intersex disorders are quite common and often go undetected

why couldn't Lear be intersex?

>>8866930
She was able to prove chromosomal intersexuality and actually looks female.

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>>8866921
we're all just mutated tree rats and males are just female embryos blasted with enough T to grow doinks, that's why FtM's on T get such rapid drastic changes and literally start growing dicks

sex isn't a binary, it's a spectrum, intersex people aren't "unnatural", they are simply examples of the in-between of two extremes that are just more numerous

honestly, I think even "hunter" and "gatherer" phenotype descriptions would be more logical, human sexual dimorphism was intensified to create a better warrior class, AIS/Klinefelter's women were included in this being taller and stronger

>>8866930
If she's intersex then she isn't transgender.

>>8866960
Embryos are not female by default like you seem to think.

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>>8866941
and why do you or anyone else deserve Lear's disclosing of private medical information?

Cossey was probably trying to raise awareness, but not everyone wants to be an advocate

>>8866924
I'm an intersex guy. Would it really be a lie if I said that? And what someone? The doctors who treat me like a circus sideshow and call me a herm because I'm in the ER for something unrelated but they saw my intersex status on my patient record? The general population who understands even less? When I don't tell everyone everything about my body, especially the thing they'll fixate on as disgusting and negative even though it's not and I'm fucking sick of them saying otherwise, that isn't shame, that's self-respect. People aren't born with different bodies to be perpetually exposed political statements for ignorant assholes to accost while grocery shopping or some shit. It should be no different for transsexuals even if their experience of their bodies is an unpleasant one. People who respect themselves know they deserve privacy.

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>>8866964
it's identity politics, but Cossey identifies as both trans and intersex

often people become a part of the trans community and later discover they are intersex

they still identify with the transgender experience, especially given the similarities of transition journeys for those intersex individuals who have to transition and even go on HRT

there is an intersection, some intersex people don't even have to transition and identify with their assigned gender, some do and arguably qualify as trans, especially if they choose to identify as such

it's a personal choice though, Cossey can identify as both but perhaps a woman with complete AIS wouldn't, perhaps even an intersex Lear wouldn't identify as trans, only using it for lack of a better word at the time

the separation between the two is a recent distinction, the lines were much more blurred throughout history

>>8866974
perhaps not in chromosomes but certainly in developing physical structures

>>8867003
>but certainly in developing physical structures
But that's false you idiot.

>>8866960
>>8866974
Embryos are by design "bi-potential" "hermaphrodites." Meaning they can either turn into one or the other which disproves both the "males start as females" meme and the "sex is a spectrum :)" meme.

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>>8866924
this is like that scene in Austin Powers where he tackles an old woman because he perceives her as "mannish"

it's tactless in the first place to ask such a question

also, "born a male" is arguable

a trans female is born a trans female, she is assigned a male status

the question is an ignorant fallacy

>>8867025
>a trans female is born a trans female
Interdasting.

>>8867030
Notice that there's no evidence for that.

Ask any tranny how it's possible to diagnose trans before dysphoria shows and they'll evade the question.

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>>8867012
>>8867017

I consider hermaphrodite females to be the default

they literally measure the clitoris/phallus/same organ to determine sex in countless intersex cases

there is a spectrum with hermaphrodite females in the initially stages that progresses drastically with the Y activating, or progressing in a default way producing a cis female, which is why they are the most common on the planet

if sex isn't a spectrum, then where do intersex people fall?

>>8867089
idk fall on lots of things because i'm a giant gawky clumsy bitch

>>8865286
Ah, yes, this would explain /lgbt/‘s high standard for passing and extreme aversion to “hugboxing”. We think hons pass.

>>8867060
We don’t have a way yet, but there’s growing evidence the cause is something biological whether it be neurointersexuality, hormones in the womb, a genetic or epigenetic factor...even then, it’s probably like most other mental features in that it comes from some interaction of predisposition and environment.

But trans is what I am. I didn’t ask for it, and there’s no changing it.

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>>8867060

trans people display identification with their non-assigned gender and general GNC as soon as they can express themselves, even at pre-verbal stages

they respond to the social cues of their non-assigned gender, they identify with other people of that gender rather than those of the one assigned to them, a trans girl identifies with her mother in real life and the princesses in the media she sees

this is all before the dysphoria stage, when the child is told they are not their innate gender, attention is directed to their genitals as proof, they are told they will develop traits of their assigned gender and this sparks the negative aspects of being transgender

it's quite simple and accepted common knowledge in the medical field, why would a toddler display such signs if they were not born that way? what could condition them psychologically to have such deep and strong convictions?

>>8867139
That’s only hsts. 80% of trannies are agp which is a sexual fetish that develops later in life

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>>8867159
>hsts
>agp

those are discredited bunk theories with exactly zero verified data to prove them

if you used terms like that around actual trans people and doctors you would be laughed at

>>8867126
There's no evidence just like there always has been and "we don't have a way yet" is exactly the kind of evasion that's to be expected.

>>8867215
Lmao it’s not evasion. It’s just fact. There were lots of diseases we didn’t have a way of detecting/diagnosing, and they still existed. The evidence points towards transgenderism existing as a biological phenomenon, not a social one.

>>8867183
>zero verified data
[citation needed]

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>>8867139
common knowledge that you posted 0 citations for

>>8867228
first you need to prove the typology as valid because you made the claim by using the terms and the burden of proof rests on you

because you don't actually care about debate you will reply to this with a shitpost and a "nuh-uh"

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>>8867228
burden of proof falls on you tho

>>8867257
http://www.annelawrence.com/autogynephilia,_a_paraphilic_model_of_GID.pdf

>>8867265
Not a valid citation.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00918369.2010.486241

>>8867273
Lemme guess you've never read the citation so you can't quote anything specific in support of your argument.

Don't forget michelle obama.

>>8867280
If you believe personal opinion works are more valid then scientific literature there is nothing to debate. End of discussion.

>>8867283
https://www.livescience.com/52941-brain-is-mix-male-and-female.html

>>8867293
The researchers combed through more than 1,400 magnetic resonance images (MRI) from multiple studies of male and female brains, focusing on regions with the largest gender differences. In the first analysis, using brain scans from 169 men and 112 women, the researchers defined "malelike" and "femalelike" as the 33 percent most extreme gender-difference scores on gray matter from 10 regions. Even with this generous designation of "male" and "female" scores, the researchers found little evidence of the consistency they would need to prove brain dimorphism. Only 6 percent of brains were internally consistent as male or female, meaning all 10 regions were either femalelike or malelike, the researchers found. Another analysis of more than 600 brains from 18- to 26-year-olds found that only 2.4 percent were internally consistent as male or female, while substantial variability was the rule for more than half (52 percent).

In other words, there were very few individuals whose brain regions were all malelike or femalelike. And there was no clear continuum between the two endpoints. Instead, across both gray and white matter and in connectivity patterns, brains are so overlapping that calling a particular form male or female is meaningless, Joel and her colleagues wrote. [Men vs. Women: Our Key Physical Differences Explained]

>>8867293
>>8867297
Not proof for Blanchard typology. Shifting goalposts. Next.

>>8867249
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1019724712983

data supporting the heritability of GID

>>8867301
What WOULD be proof to you?

>>8867305
If this is qualifies as your definition of "proof", then we have nothing to discuss.

>>8867307
Are you just denying that there are heterosexual men who get off to inserting themselves sexually as women or just the terminology applied?

>>8867303
this is my favorite trans study

Why do brainsexers rely on such pseudoscience?

>>8867303
Conversely, a characteristic can be highly heritable even if it is not genetically determined. Some years ago when only women wore earrings, the heritability of having an earring was high because differences in whether a person had an earring were "due" to a genetic (chromosomal) difference. Now that earrings are less gender-specific, the heritability of having an earring has no doubt decreased. But neither then nor now was having earrings genetically determined in anything like the manner of having five fingers. The heritability literature is full of cases like this: high measured heritabilities for characteristics whose genetic determination is doubtful. For example, the same methodology that yields 60 percent heritability for IQ also yields 50 percent heritability of academic performance and 40 percent heritability of occupational status. Obviously, occupational status is not genetically determined: genes do not code for working in a printed circuit factory.

>>8867323
https://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/philo/faculty/block/papers/Heritability.html

More significantly, a child's environment is often a heritable characteristic, strange as this may seem. If degree of musical talent is highly heritable and if variation in the number of the child's music lessons depends on variation in musical talent, then the number of music lessons that a child gets may be heritable, too, despite not being genetically determined. In fact, recent studies of heritabilities of various features of childrens' environments show substantial heritabilities for many environmental features - for example, the "warmth" of the parents' behavior toward the child. Even number of hours of TV watched and number and variety of a childs' toys shows some heritability. If this seems unintelligible, think of it this way: variation in these environmental properties is in part due to variation in heritable characteristics of the child, and so the environmental characteristics themselves are heritable. Readers of The Bell Curve often suppose that a heritable characteristic is one that is passed down in the genes, but this identification is importantly flawed. The number and variety of a child's toys is not passed down in the genes. Heritability is a matter of the causation of differences, not what is "passed down".

>>8867323
Nice lysenkoism but you're still BTFO.

>>8867312
I've never field a single claim. You have.

>>8867323
The earring thing only makes sense if you ignore the fact it’s completely artificial and girls don’t come out of the womb with pierced ears

>>8867327
>NYU is lysenkoism

All you have is very low quality evidence with very small sample sizes making BIG claims.

>>8867333
Exactly, so is being transgender. That's the point. Boys don't come out of the womb as girls.

>>8867303
Didn't Blanchard show that AGP and HSTS are separately heritable and HSTS and homosexuality are heritable together?

In other words, showing that it's the typology that's heritable?

>>8867339
Also we know that autism is heritable as is BDD and to me those combined are what dysphoria represents. We have no solid evidence that gender identity, since it is solely defined by the patient's claims is anything different biologically than patients who have autism and body dysmorphia combined with a specific focus on gender. There are also similarities to the pathology of body integrity identity disorder. The heritable could be unrelated to neural intersexuality, which has no high quality evidence in support, but rather to comorbidities.

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>>8867339
>>8867346
>Didn't Blanchard show that AGP and HSTS are separately heritable and HSTS and homosexuality are heritable together?

I wouldn't know, that's up to you to try and prove

you're moving goalposts, I was simply pointing out that GID is innate, not whether it was strictly intersex or not

>>8867368
I didn't make that claim.

GID is not innate. Heritability could be due to comorbidity. You would need more than 1 study to prove that.

>>8867371
Let me be more specific. There is nothing to indicate that being trans is different from homosexuality. and fetishistic crossdressing in straight males. There's nothing that says being homosexual relative to natal sex and trans is biologically different than being homosexual.

>>8867337
They don’t come out of the womb depressed either and depression has a heritable component. This is a bad argument. If trans is anything like mental illnesses it most likely has a genetic/heritable component that interacts with the environment to produce transgenderism

Twin studies are correlational but the correlation is still pointing in the “likely biological” direction

>>8867378
The blanchardfags don't bother with this sociocultural bullshit for any mental illness that isn't GID. For depression, anxiety, bipolar, OCD, blah blah blah it's all very well and established that it's the brain's fault and you pass it on to your children.

They only do it because sociocultural theories allow them to blame society/the jews/the rothschilds/whatever target they need to force through /pol/ worldviews and meme harder.

>>8867368
>GID is innate
evidence? zilch.

>>8867346
>We have no solid evidence that gender identity, since it is solely defined by the patient's claims is anything different biologically than patients who have autism and body dysmorphia combined with a specific focus on gender.
We have no solid evidence that homosexuality, since it is solely defined by the patients’ claims is anything different biologically than patients who have autism and a paraphilia combined with a fixation on people of the same gender.

>>8867393
Even if it was, it would be irrelevant because autistic people deserve rights too.

Stay hurt, trad values.

>>8867393
We have objective arousal measures done BY BLANCHARD showing different patterns of arousal.

>>8867399
Being autistic about your genitals is not a good enough reason to chop them off. We need medicine to treat the autism, not barbarous surgeries with risks of infection. Most mental illnesses are not treated with major surgery.

>>8867418
Meeeh, blanchard's work after the early 90s is laammmeeooo. Boorring! I only care about trolling the fucking trannies.

>>8867371
>>8867390
*GID has an innate nature

>>8867387
this is true

>>8867423
Since when do homosexuals chop off their genitals?

I think you're confusing two different argument lines. Maybe it's time to take a break, anon.

>>8867434
Note how they refuse to reply to the clear as day statement that every major mental illness has a clear heritable component with the sole exception, according to their worldview, of GID which is just all society + overt lysenkoism whenever there's evidence it can be passed down.

When you're dragging up sixty year old Soviet pseudoscience to support your argument, you know it's on shaky ground.

>>8867423
>muh all trannies are autistic meme
>muh psychoactive treatment
>muh genital mutilation
/pol/ confirmed

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>>8867423
>risks of infection

lulz

we get it, you want your Homosexual Trapgirls *intact* with their donglers

you want to institutionalize them in harem wards of asylums under constant observation and "experimentation" by Blanchardians after an alt-right revolution into a dystopian regime

>>8867435
When they have autism and severe enough BDD apparently. I don't know why this line of thinking is too taboo to research. I'm not trolling either. I think it is genuinely ignored because it makes people look bad.

>>8867501
Because it’s demonstrably the case that not all trannies have autism, and BDD is a completely different disorder (people with BDD and eating disorders do not see their bodies accurately, transgender people see their bodies accurately but need them to be different; psychotherapy and medication can ease BDD, but not dysphoria; physical modifications do not help BDD sufferers who often begin to fixate on another part of the body)

>>8867501
Also it’s not “taboo to research” - you’re imagining muh librul conspiracy where there isn’t one. You don’t think if we had any indications of a potential way to ease gender dysphoria without transition, the medical establishment would be all over it?

>>8867516
I have not seen a comparison directly of BDD and GID comorbidity. And I did look for one. It simply hasn't been done yet afaik. Are you denying there are transgender people who think being a woman means having a dozen or more surgeries that are not even necessary like butt lifts or abdominoplasty or facial implants etc. There are definitely a LOT of transgender women who seem addicted to cosmetic surgery.

>>8867525
You use hormones and surgery as a crutch rather than directing that research effort in the direction of new medicines and therapies to directly reduce the dysphoria. There is no biological verifiable way that being "transgender" can be measured apart from patients self-reporting so far. No differences in hormones levels or other pathologies.

>>8867525
>Bailey, Zucker, et al didn't lose their jobs

>>8867526
I think such a study would be useful, but it would not disprove the existence of gender dysphoria as a unique condition like you’re hoping.

I think with transition it’s hard to separate the innate longing to “go home” into a body that feels right, from the societal pressures put on women to look perfect. I think a lot of trans women have internalized those standards and don’t think they are real until they see them in themselves. Male socialization certainly doesn’t help. Also there’s the whole passing issue.

>>8867562
At what point of non-passibility is medically encouraging transitioning riskier to psychological health?

>>8867537
Biological "verification" isn't needed if it makes people more satisfied with their lives and bodies. We don't ask for brain scans of women's body maps before letting them get breast implants.

And surgery isn't an alternative to other research. Both can happen.

It's weird you talk about medicine for dysphoria while pointing out there's no biological reason for it though.

>>8867569
That’s going to be a very personal question for each transitioner.

>>8867579
We don't have controlled data comparing those who don't transition but experience dysphoria to those who experience dysphoria but don't transition. I'm surprised there isn't data, maybe there is, on those who consider themselves transgender but not dysphoric who transition vs those who don't medically transition.

>>8867537
Do you think homosexuality needs to be cured in the same way? Should we be researching that? Remember, it was classified as a mental illness not too long ago.

>>8867579
I think the reason is BDD and autism which are both very hard to treat and deserve better medications.

>>8867583
Considering yourself transgender when not dysphoric is a very new phenomenon. Typically dysphoria is a necessary condition for transition (and I think it should stay that way.)

>>8867583
?

>>8867594
Why is dysphoria necessary for transition?

>>8867595
??

>>8867585
If you ask me, it’s a very flawed (and very western) idea to think we can potentially cure all mental ailments with the right medication. Neuroscience is still a budding field, there’s so much we don’t know. It may not be possible to cure something like autism, since it’s connected to brain structure, for example. I think it’s best to help people with mental illnesses we can’t “cure” yet to live the best lives they can, and ease their symptoms the ways we know how.

>>8867617
I think we can cure them with CRISPR.

https://spectrumnews.org/news/estrogen-reverses-autism-like-features-in-mice/

>>8867601
So there’s some kind of standard for treatment, and people who really shouldn’t be on hormones don’t end up on them. For example, transtrenders. You don’t want someone to wake up three years down the line and realize they were doing it to be cool.

>>8867628
Wow, that would be stunning if it works in humans. CRISPR has so much potential, even if it freaks me out a little. I imagine you’d have a situation like deafness where a community of autistic people and parents of autistic kids are opposed to treatment.

>>8867635
That's the issue with a disorder defined solely by self-report. Idiopathic diagnoses are hard (definitionally impossible) to prove and sometimes motivated by malingering.

>>8867640
My pet theory is that what's going on is mostly related to androgen receptor sensitivity and so being gay and transgender are not somehow causally different, but that doesn't account for AGP or heterosexual (natal) transgenders so having the distinction of HSTS is honestly a useful thing to compare populations. I mean just saying that there are people who identified as homosexual prior to transitioning is meaningful.

>>8867642
Even illnesses we know causes for, like depression, has malingerers. Unfortunately that’s the state of the field right now.

>>8867635
Sorry but you have no place to say who should or shouldn't be on hormones.

>>8867659
Which is why depression initially was treated with amphetamines and then tricyclic antidepressants which produce no euphoria and then SSRIs which produce no euphoria and are relatively safe in overdose.

No such treatment effort has been undertaken for transgender apart from estrogen therapy, which has been around a while and carries risks, as does surgery.

Interesting that researchers claim that cancer incidence isn't increased in transgender women who transition. I doubt they have a control group but that is in direct conflict to data showing that homosexual men have an increased risk of cancer to heterosexuals if they are comparing transgender women to heterosexuals. There isn't great data on the risks of estrogen use in transgender women yet. Mostly very small, uncontrolled studies.

https://www.endocrineweb.com/professional/gender-identity/transgender-hormone-therapy-safe-when-monitored-certain-risks

Cancer Prevalence Is Not Increased in Transgender Adults Using Hormone Therapy

The overall cancer incidence in transgender men and women did not differ significantly from that in control groups in studies to date. The incidence of breast cancer in transgender individuals taking estrogen is not different from secular trends in males and is lower than secular trends in women. A rare but possible increase prostate cancer (0.04%) has been reported in transgender women, however, the findings are limited by decreased screening and the relative young age (average, 29.3 years) in subjects at the start of therapy.4

>>8867670
No, I don’t, but I have a personal belief that letting whoever on hormones undermines the integrity of transsexualism as a valid condition.

>>8867672
We’re absolutely in early days of transgender research. I’m all for more of it, and even alternative treatments to transition once we have a solid causal theory.

>>8867672
I wonder if differing breast cancer rates are related to how trans and cis women’s breast’s develop differently, and the lack of a reproductive cycle

>>8867676
What you're saying is, because you still want to be in the doctor's manual, everyone else should be gatekept.

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>>8863520
I’m sorry but every time I scroll by this thread I keep seeing pic related

>>8867727
lulz, best moment in the game

>>8867891
It’s such an endearing moment desu
Tidus is a dork, but like, a lovable dork

>>8867423
>medicine to treat the autism

>>8867900
Tidus needs to be my tgf