Do you think you would not have gender dysphoria if gender construction

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>>8792018
This is just a theory, but maybe societal/cultural stereotypes, norms and traditions are inevitable with the presence of sexual dimorphism. Obviously there are major cultural nuances but roughly speaking. E.g. the idea that women should be at home, stems from the fact that they are in general not as naturally psyichally capable of hunting. The tradition just morphs over time.
So basically gender stereotypes/cultural differences/norms are fundamental to a culture in the first place.
But said things are all rooted in the fact that guys and girls are different. So I would assume it would be lot less appealing to some people but in general dsyphoria would still be there, just not as dominant as it would be in a society with different attitudes on sex.

>>8792018
I think that in a world without the constructed part of gender (to the extent that such a world can exist) you'd still have anatomic dysphoria but not social dysphoria.

Anatomic Dysphoria causes you to feel that your body is wrong in some sexual dimorphism related ways. Sometimes all, sometimes not. You feel the need to have a body of the "opposite" sex. It most likely has a biological cause.

You're told, your whole life, that people who have bodies like that are called men/women, and that men and women act in a certain way. You conclude that since you feel the need to have that sort of body you must actually be a man/woman yourself, and start to feel bad about how you are not like the man/woman you're "supposed" to be, and about how you're not even allowed to be like this. Social dysphoria, which is not biological but sprung from the biological sort of dysphoria.

The first sort of dysphoria is universal (though intensities vary) while the second is not (though some level of it is very very common) since it is learned and a consequence of the first.

Neurological studies involving brain scans etc show that trans people have brains that, in some areas but not in others, show patterns between what is typical for men and women (that is, being a man or a woman or trans doesn't mean you will exhibit a certain pattern in a certain area, but it does mean that you're more likely to exhibit certain patterns, on a bell curve distribution, and that the bell curves differ between the three groups, with the center of the trans bell curve falling between the other two). We also know that some other animals, such as rats and monkeys, exhibit behaviors typical to the other sex if they've been exposed to natal androgens at key moments. This is why I believe anatomic dysphoria has a biological cause, and can serve as a basis for the more abstract sort of dysphoria.

>>8792203
Not OP but a really great post.
Never even struck me that there could be diffences between types of dysphoria one social and the other anatomical.
Learnt something about myself.

>>8792018
No, because it's physical.

I wouldn't have gender dysphoria if porn didn't exist.

If I was just some backwoods medieval peasent who had never seen a naked woman and man together to compare, never masturbated to discover my sexual feelings, and whose teenage hormonal lust would have shattered any born preferences anyway when I slept with the baker's daughter at the drunken barn dance, I wouldn't have had the oppratunity to even know what trans was.

>>8792270
>I wouldn't have gender dysphoria if porn didn't exist
ayyy

>>8792270
how do you know that upon seeing the baker's daughter you wouldn't have been overcome with a desire to be her?

>>8792273
>Sexuality and mental states can't be influenced by the environment.

Ay.

>>8792285
You might, but those feelings would be so alien and buried under just the right amount of alcohol and teenage hormones you could work through them.

Or basically, other pressures in your life take the forefront of your development.

>>8792289
How could porn possibly turn you trans? Gender identity has little to do with what you're attracted to. Next you'll tell me you think porn can turn gay people straight. At least that would make more sense since orientation is related to attraction.

>>8792293
>Or basically, other pressures in your life take the forefront of your development.
Historically that didn't stop gay people from being gay, you know? It just made them hide it.

>>8792293
the idea of never knowing myself like that feels horrible.

>>8792296
Because gender identity is still intrinsically attached to sexuality. You can influence sexuality through stimuli and experiences, and if you only present certain stimuli, you can at least swing a person's sexuality in a chosen direction.

>>8792299
For every person who was activly gay and hid, there were a hundred who were repressed, led heterosexual lives, and functioned as heterosexuals. Maybe they were always missing something, but they never had the opportunity to find out what.

>>8792319
>Because gender identity is still intrinsically attached to sexuality
What about aesexuals? I don't think gender identity is related to sexuality at all.

>You can influence sexuality through stimuli and experiences, and if you only present certain stimuli, you can at least swing a person's sexuality in a chosen direction.
I think you can influence some aspects of a person's sexuality but not others. As far as I know every attempt to turn gay kids straight failed.

>>8792327
>What about aesexuals?

Asexuals can not be transgender. They can choose to express their gender as their opposite, but that's different than being trans. Anyone can choose to express themselves as a chosen gender, not everyone will have the brain morphology to be trans.

>As far as I know every attempt to turn gay kids straight failed.

You don't influence someone who is already influenced. That's like carving into a stone that's already carved. You influence during development. You repress after development. Plenty of people are / have been gay and chosen not to be, usually for religious reasons.

>>8792356
>Asexuals can not be transgender
???
This is just completely wrong. You can be aesexual and experience gender dysphoria.

>You influence during development.
Aren't kids still developing? Did porn "turn you trans" before you were 12 or so?

>>8792327
>>8792356
Asexuals are romantically transgender but without a sexuality.

>>8792366
Asexual trannies, that is.

>>8792366
>Romantically transgender
Romance and sexuality have nothing to do with your gender identity. What does it mean to be "romantically transgender?". If you ask trans people whether they'd still transition if they had to live in an abandoned island alone forever the answer is a more or less universal yes. You transition in order to be comfortable in your own skin. Putting that aside, though, you can be aromantic and aesexual and still experience gender dysphoria.

>>8792379
>What does it mean to be "romantically transgender?".
They identify as the other sex for more romantic than sexual reasons.

>>8792364
>You can be aesexual and experience gender dysphoria.

As far as I know there are two types of asexuals. Ones that have chosen not to be sexual for various reasons, due to trauma or choice, or ones that receive no sexual stimulus on a physical, brain, level. The first is a chosen and/or learned behavior, the second is it's own type of identity. I would not put them into a trangender category, because they are incapable of expressing the behaviors transgender individuals do. They are in their own seperate categories.

>>8792366
This is just called "being friends." Labeling same (nonsexual) sex relationships as any form of trans based on gender expression is a horrible misuse of the word trans.

>Aren't kids still developing? Did porn "turn you trans" before you were 12 or so?

Personally, I had access to porn way earlier than that. This is true for a lot of children these days. Every person is different, but sexuality goes through several stages of plasticity. Generally it's "liquid" when you're a young child, "molten" when you are going through puberty, and "solid" by the time you leave puberty. You can add on to sexuality, but usually can't detract. Sexuality usually takes it's final shape after a person's first experience with it. Sadly this can happen at an early age with abuse and cement certain sexual feelings and behaviors at a young, premature, age. Sometimes your sexuality is never fully expressed and remains molten well into adulthood, since either a lack of experience or a lack of a grounding experience to shape your sexuality.

This is stupid. I'm trans tomboy with masculine hobbies and insulting humour. This make me fit ok with most of guys, but dysphoria was still there.

>>8792413
Transgirls' gender identities, just like guys's sexualities, can distinguish between a tomboy and a guy even if they both fit in with guys.

>>8792413
I'm not saying you fit this, but for the sake of discussion, one can still feel dysphoria for their body and not be transgendered.

>>8792422
I want to be percieved as a girl, and like looking feminine and hanging up with other women. But I still like shooting, motorcycles, craft beer, heavy metal, sci fi, I'm into girls mostly. But I still was and am ok in male company and all this didn't make me want be a girl any less.

>>8792422
Basically it was opposite for me. If I wouldn't have my hobbies and be ok socially I would sooner figure it out and wouldn't lost so many years depressed

>>8792429
>I want to be percieved as a girl

Personally, I don't qualify this as being the only requirement for being transgender, though a lot of people do. For me, you are trans if you take hormones and the dysphoria becomes absent, and stays absent. If you don't or the dysphoria returns, there is a good chance you're not transgender and have a more generalized form of body dysphoria. Which is much harder to treat, and I believe to be the cause of so many trans individual's deaths due to misdiagnosis. I believe that's the danger of the trans community sort of co-opting dysphoria as a trans issue. It's entirely possible that in people's desperation to escape their dysphoria, they decided to take the next logical step and attept to become transgender, which may be the wrong path for them.

>>8792405
>They identify as the other sex for more romantic than sexual reasons.
What does identifying as a certain sex has to do with romance or intercourse at all? Your identity is not hinged on what you're attracted to. That's your orientation. I don't know where you got this idea from.

>>8792406
>I would not put them into a trangender category, because they are incapable of expressing the behaviors transgender individuals do.
??? This is not even the same scale!
A transsexual is someone who feels uncomfortable with the sexual characteristics of their body and seeks to change some or all of them to those of their non-natal sex. Sometimes they also experience social dysphoria (which is necessarily learned) as a result.

>Labeling same (nonsexual) sex relationships as any form of trans based on gender expression is a horrible misuse of the word trans.
What the hell? Relationships have nothing to do with being or not being trans.

Here's the actual definition of Gender Dysphoria in the DSM:

>In adolescents and adults gender dysphoria diagnosis involves a difference between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, and significant distress or problems functioning. It lasts at least six months and is shown by at least two of the following:

>A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
>A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
>A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
>A strong desire to be of the other gender
>A strong desire to be treated as the other gender
>A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender

Note the complete lack of anything having to do with sexual attraction.

>>8792444
>I believe that's the danger of the trans community sort of co-opting dysphoria as a trans issue.
Gender Dysphoria is literally a trans issue. That's what makes someone trans. What is going on in this thread?

>>8792444
I get you and agree with you. Hrt is also diagnostic tool. I merely write this because, I could fit in and still turn out tgirl. Neurological connection between brain, body and endoctrine system is cause of this and not some mere rolles like wackos like Judith butler suggest >>8792448

>>8792406
Romantic and sexual attraction are both parts of orientation. Asexual transpeople might lack one but they don't lack the other.

And there are "asexual" transpeople whose sexualities simply don't involve sexual activities with people.

>>8792448
>What does identifying as a certain sex has to do with romance or intercourse at all?
Literally which role you take in it.

>>8792448

The problem with asexuals and being transexual, not just wishing to express their gender another way, is they can't meet the qualifications.

>>A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics

They feel an incongruence with genitals, period.

>>A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics

Check, but they don't seek to replace them with their opposite.

>>A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender

They don't desire sex characteristics.

>>A strong desire to be of the other gender

Possibly, in the form of social expression, but not in the same sense as a healthily sexual person is.

>>A strong desire to be treated as the other gender

See above.

>>A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender

They are incapable of typical feelings and reactions.

>>8792451
Gender dysphoria =/ All dysphoria.

>>8792469
>Romantic and sexual attraction are both parts of orientation.

Wrong. At least in the sense you are using the word orientation incorrectly. You can have a relationship with anyone, it does define your orientation. Unless you're some weirdo who can only have friends on one gender for some reason.

>sexualities simply don't involve sexual activities with people.

An oxymoron. At least towards attraction to others than oneself.

>>8792478
You're disagreeing that romantic and sexual attraction define your orientation?

>>8792469
>Literally which role you take in it.
Identifying as a certain gender does not indicate who you are attracted to nor what role you'd like to take in bed. It means you'd like to have a certain body, including in bed if you're interested in that.

>>8792475
>They feel an incongruence with genitals, period.
Not true. Many just don't feel the urge to copulate.

>Check, but they don't seek to replace them with their opposite.
No, most aesexuals don't have a problem with these characteristics.

>They don't desire sex characteristics.
Wrong. One can desire to have e.g. breasts without wanting to ever have sex or have anything sexual done to them.

>Possibly, in the form of social expression, but not in the same sense as a healthily sexual person is.
This is a non-sequitur. Gender is not who you fuck.

>See above.
This is entirely about the social side..

>They are incapable of typical feelings and reactions.
lmao you fucking reddit-spaced meme queen you got me. Whatever. At the very least you probably helped me convince a bunch of people reading this that your position is ridiculous so your trolling ended up making the world a better place.

>>8792487
I'm disagreeing that sexual orientation is not defined by your romanticisms. You can not have a romantic orientation, because your romantic interests are based by a person's character rather than their physical gender. Which is why the concept of romantic orientation is stupid and further reinforces the inflexibility of gender rolls and sterotypes.

>>8792489
As I said before, there are several types of asexualities. The one I was discussing is characterized by a distinct lack of interest in sexuality, not by their choice or preference, but by morphology.

>Reddit spacing.
Jesus, sorry I use quotations and spacing in my post you sperg. You obviously have no interest in discussion and only seek to vomit your opinions in the hopes you will somehow be proven right.

>>8792508
>The one I was discussing is characterized by a distinct lack of interest in sexuality, not by their choice or preference, but by morphology.
Right, and this lack of interest does not imply - at all - that they can't experience gender dysphoria or pretty much anything else you wrote in your post.

>You obviously have no interest in discussion and only seek to vomit your opinions in the hopes you will somehow be proven right.
Facts. I'm stating facts. This is not a discussion. This is someone being wrong and me correcting them. Some things are not up to debate. This is something we know factually and clearly.

>>8792518
>Right, and this lack of interest does not imply - at all - that they can't experience gender dysphoria

You're arguing that they can't experience gender dysphoria while I'm arguing they shouldn't be labeled as transgendered. They can experience dysphoria, but in my opinion their lack of sexual interest disqualifies them for the label of gender dysphoria and transexuality. Asexuals deservr to be in their own catagories, and overlap in terminology should be avoided to prevent confusion like in this conversation.

>Facts. I'm stating facts.

We're talking gender THEORY here sweetie.

>>8792533
>You're arguing that they can't experience gender dysphoria while I'm arguing they shouldn't be labeled as transgendered. They can experience dysphoria, but in my opinion their lack of sexual interest disqualifies them for the label of gender dysphoria and transexuality. Asexuals deservr to be in their own catagories, and overlap in terminology should be avoided to prevent confusion like in this conversation.
Who you are attracted to and what gender you identify as are two completely different things. No matter who someone is or is not attracted to they can still identify as their non-natal sex. Anyone who identifies as their non-natal sex is transsexual. You have two unrelated axes. It's like arguing that someone tall can't be fat.

>We're talking gender THEORY here sweetie.
Don't even try to say that this is just semantics since you just now argued that aesexuals can't qualify for gender dysphoria here
>>8792475

This is plain wrong.

>>8792547
>Who you are attracted to and what gender you identify as are two completely different things.

I believe there are two genders. Male, female. You can express yourself as either gender, somewhere inbetween, or neither. Asexuality falls into neither because they can not wholly express their gender. They can in parts, socially, behaviorially, but they lack the sexuality.

>Don't even try to say that this is just semantics since you just now argued that aesexuals can't qualify for gender dysphoria here

It is semantics, that's the point. And they can't, because asexuals who are dysphoric should have their own label rather than being loosely tied with the definition of gender dysphoria. Since asexuals can not fully express their gender, their orientation is not reliant on their gender, and if their asexuality is not based on their hormone chemistry, I fail to see why you would attach the label of gender to their dysphoria.

>>8792565
>I believe there are two genders. Male, female. You can express yourself as either gender, somewhere inbetween, or neither. Asexuality falls into neither because they can not wholly express their gender. They can in parts, socially, behaviorially, but they lack the sexuality.
You can believe whatever you like but not being attracted to anyone doesn't make someone fall "between male and female". It's completely unrelated to one's gender identity.

>It is semantics, that's the point.
You're arguing aesexuality is something it is not.

>And they can't, because asexuals who are dysphoric should have their own label rather than being loosely tied with the definition of gender dysphoria.
You're still not getting it. Aesexuals can be gender dysphoric *in the exact same way* people of all other sexual orientations can be gender dysphoric.

>Since asexuals can not fully express their gender
?!?

>their orientation is not reliant on their gender
No one's orientation is reliant on their gender! "Male" is not a sexual orientation! "Androphilic" is not a gender!

>and if their asexuality is not based on their hormone chemistry
We don't strictly know the cause of aesexuality.

>I fail to see why you would attach the label of gender to their dysphoria.
Because some aesexuals identify with their non-natal sex, which is the one and only thing that makes someone trans. They can meet all of the DSM's criteria.

You keep trying to couple gender and orientation and there is absolutely no basis to doing so.

>>8792565
>>8792579
Correction: you wrote "neither" rather than "in between", so find and replace as necessary.

>>8792579
>It's completely unrelated to one's gender identity.

>Except for all the times it is.

>No one's orientation is reliant on their gender!

That's what I said.

>We don't strictly know the cause of aesexuality.

See, that's the thing. You might have made an argument for one of histories most common causes of asexuality, which would be castration. You might be able to argue that a castrated male has gender dysphoria because he lacks the testosterone needed to express his male identity, which could fall under gender dysphoria. But you didn't and I wouldn't.

>Because some aesexuals identify with their non-natal sex

Sex and gender are interchangeable. How one choses to express themselves is based on societal norms, rolls, and expectations.

>You keep trying to couple gender and orientation and there is absolutely no basis to doing so.

They are coupled. They are fluid, but still coupled. You can have every combination of sexuality and gender you can think of and have healthy expressions of gender. However, asexuality is missing a large portion of their gender rolls and insticts, which is their sexuality. If a person's sexuality and gender expression is on a spectrum, asexuals fall off that spectrum. Or at least they don't touch upon the sexuality spectrum at all.

>>8792018
Sexual dimorphisms aren't socially constructed.
I was mortified as a kid when it finally dawned on me that I couldn't be a mom. A uterus isn't a social comstruction.
Gender fluid enbie snowflake bs probably wouldn't exist if gender stereotypes didn't exist, but transsexualism very likely would, though perhaps at a lower rate.
Also, gender stereotypes are a consequence of sexual dimorphisms, so to eliminate gender, you'd have to eliminate sex and that isn't really a matter of some "social change" that can be brought about.

>>8792607
>That's what I said.
That's the exact opposite of what you said. You argue that they're coupled in the same bloody post.

>See, that's the thing. You might have made an argument for one of histories most common causes of asexuality, which would be castration. You might be able to argue that a castrated male has gender dysphoria because he lacks the testosterone needed to express his male identity, which could fall under gender dysphoria. But you didn't and I wouldn't.
This is completely unrelated to what I've said. Aesexual people can be trans for the exact same reason others are because being aesexual is not connected to being cis or trans.

>They are coupled.
Wrong.

>Sex and gender are interchangeable.
Okay so you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I'll go ahead and call this a win since no reasonable person reading this exchange could possibly think you're right at this point.

>>8792619
This is me, I'm a tranny and >>8792624
I am asexual. I hate having sex because of crippling genital dysphoria, and I doubt SRS will even relieve that. As a consequence, I no longer experience sexual attraction, arousal, ect.

>>8792624
>You argue that they're coupled in the same bloody post.

Reliant is not the same as linked.

>Aesexual people can be trans for the exact same reason others are because being aesexual is not connected to being cis or trans.

The problem here is you're arguing from every definition of asexual, while I'm arguing from asexuality as a product of physiology. If you are like this anon >>8792630 I would not classify them as asexual, but as just unable to have sex. I would classify someone who is asexual has no desire to have sex, but is not celebite or suffering from another condition.

>Okay so you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

The word "gender" has evolved past it's origional purpose. There are only two genders, male and female. Unless you're a plant, insect, or alien then it's a crapshoot. The word "gender" has been used as of late to allow for more than the two genders in an attempt to label every possible combination of sexuality, orientation, romantic interest, and gender role expression as a distinct "gender." When in reality there are only two genders, but countless ways for society to shape those genders. So instead of the endless list of pans, demis, A's, Gray's, genders of fluids, autos, queers, and beers, wouldn't it be simpler to say I am male or female, and then just ignore the pressures and rules put on by society to behave a certain way? Who says being male is liking trucks, guns, and sports? Who says being a woman is frills, shoes, and shopping? Why label yourself with all these things when you can just be yourself? That's the real goal at the end of the day. So change what you can change, and accept what you can't, because you can change how you behave, but you can't change your gender.

There is one gender. Women are object.

>>8792670
>I would classify someone who is asexual has no desire to have sex, but is not celebite or suffering from another condition.
And someone like that can suffer from Gender Dysphoria as defined by the DSM.

>The word "gender" has evolved past it's origional purpose. There are only two genders, male and female. Unless you're a plant, insect, or alien then it's a crapshoot. The word "gender" has been used as of late to allow for more than the two genders in an attempt to label every possible combination of sexuality, orientation, romantic interest, and gender role expression as a distinct "gender." When in reality there are only two genders, but countless ways for society to shape those genders. So instead of the endless list of pans, demis, A's, Gray's, genders of fluids, autos, queers, and beers, wouldn't it be simpler to say I am male or female, and then just ignore the pressures and rules put on by society to behave a certain way? Who says being male is liking trucks, guns, and sports? Who says being a woman is frills, shoes, and shopping? Why label yourself with all these things when you can just be yourself? That's the real goal at the end of the day. So change what you can change, and accept what you can't, because you can change how you behave, but you can't change your gender.
All of this has very little to do with the fundamental nature of gender dysphoria, which has a biological cause and concerns one's body, not gender roles. It sometimes has a learned, social component which does relate to this but it is always, always secondary. In a world with no gender roles someone trans would still wish to modify their body to be like that of a person of their non-natal sex.

>>8792682
>And someone like that can suffer from Gender Dysphoria as defined by the DSM.

I disagree.

>which has a biological cause

I've never said otherwise. You are the one saying that it's alright for asexuals to have the descriptor gender dysphoria applied to them, when that only loosely correlates with their actual condition. I'm saying that this is a dangerous trend that could be fixed with clearer descriptions rather than slapping down a general label on someone. If someone who is asexual needs hormone therepy to remove dysphoria, great, just don't jot it down in the medical records as GID because it's misleading.

>>8792688
>I disagree.
Cool. You're wrong.

>>8792700
Says you, but that's ok. I'm used to the average tumblr sheep arguments anyway.

>>8792703
>Says you
and the medical establishment..