ETLEs make no bloody sense. A common AGP fantasy is to slut it

>>8783100
>AGP fantasy is to slut it up with a lot of men
Aren't all AGP trannies attracted to women?

>>8783110
Supposedly, though the data says otherwise. Anyhow even female-attracted AGPs can get turned on by the idea of being with men as a validation of their femininity. That is, it is womanly to be attracted to men ergo it is arousing to some autogynephiles.

Also
>AGP trannies
Not all AGPs are trannies and AGP rarely sticks around for long after you transition so

>>8783100
Being with a woman is cucking yourself because she's an "other woman" to your attraction to yourself.

Being with a man is creating the straight relationship you want, focused on the girl.

>>8783144
>Being with a man is creating the straight relationship you want, focused on the girl.
But the male you is theorized to be separate from the female you and attracted to it since you're just a straight man, so you're still cucking yourself. As an AGP being with anyone else is cucking yourself, at least according to ETLE theory.

>>8783153
There is no "male you". There is you and there is the female you erotically locate as yourself.

Slutting it up makes an AGP a slut and doesn't make her a cuck. She is the one sleeping around so she can't be cucked. Her affection isn't divided or directed anywhere else.

When you are involved with a girl on the other hand you are splitting your attraction between her and yourself. You are cucking yourself by "cheating" with an other woman.

>>8783180
>There is you and there is the female you erotically locate as yourself.
Exactly, I agree, which is why I think what I think and don't follow the rest of your argument. If you're attracted to the female you locate in yourself then that female sleeping with other people is essentially "cheating on you". On the other hand if you sleep with a woman then you're just cheating on the mate you locate in yourself.

>>8783180
>>8783187
i.e. an autogynephile, according to this theory, isn't the she - it's a man who modifies his body so that it is attractive to him because he locates his mate in himself. He isn't "the woman".

>>8783187
>If you're attracted to the female you locate in yourself then that female sleeping with other people is essentially "cheating on you"
This would only be so if that female is someone else. To see her as someone else you must see yourself as separate from her, which means you aren't AGP.

Besides that, her attraction isn't directed at the man. It's directed at herself despite having sex with somebody else.

>>8783190
The autogynephile isn't a man. Only its body is a man, which it turns into the woman it identifies as and that it's attraction is towards.

>>8783198
>Besides that, her attraction isn't directed at the man. It's directed at herself despite having sex with somebody else.
Okay, consider the following: Blanchard's camp often argues that heterosexuality "competes" with AGP and that men who are with other women often cease feeling the need to become women themselves. This implies that the core identity is male and that AGP just makes you act out womanhood when you're your own mate because that's what you find attractive in a mate.

>This would only be so if that female is someone else. To see her as someone else you must see yourself as separate from her, which means you aren't AGP.
Since she is a mate you locate in yourself rather than in the outside world isn't the implication that you see her as someone else? If you see her as yourself then how is this distinct from someone simply identifying as a woman and being autosexual? Are autosexual cis women also "AGP"? She is only a woman because you're attracted to women.

>The autogynephile isn't a man. Only its body is a man, which it turns into the woman it identifies as and that it's attraction is towards.
That's not the Blanchardian view.

>>8783100
The inner image of a female evolves.

One of it's starting points is that of a woman who freely gives herself up. So the people who want to be a slut are undeveloped human beings. In contrast someone with an inner female that has high standards and only wishes to be with men worthy of her is a more developed.

I have no fucking idea what AGP or any of this tranny shit is but you sound like you are describing Jungian anima psychology.

>>8783230
>I have no fucking idea what AGP or any of this tranny shit
Autogynephilia is arousal at the thought of yourself as a woman physically and/or behaviorally. A lot of pre-transition transwomen are AGP. Some 20% of androphiles and 80% of gynephiles. A researcher named Ray Blanchard noted this and developed a theory that states that there are two types of transsexuals: Homosexual Transsexuals and Autogynephiles.

Autogynephiles, he theorized, were straight men with a theoretical mental illness called an Erotic Target Location Error which caused them to locate their mate in themselves instead of in the outside world. Since they're attracted to women this means that their mate as they detect it - themselves - is not appealing to them. On the other hand if that mate is made womanly then it is suddenly appealing to them and is thus sexually arousing. Transsexuality in autogynephiles, then, is proposed to be the process by which a straight man feels the need to change their own body and presentation in order to appeal to himself because his paraphilic arousal to himself, over time, has come to make him identify as the female he presented as himself for the sake of self-arousal.

Homosexual transsexuals are theorized to be gay men who are so feminine that they can't deal with society rejecting them as men but, seeing how society accepts people with their traits as women, develop a pathological need to be women in order to, in their mind, be similarly accepted. A secondary motivation is to better tempt straight men.

The discrepancy between the 20% / 80% figures and the proposed 0% / 100% figures is explained away by people misreporting.

This is a very fringe theory at this point and has been rejected by pretty much everyone in the medical community, Blanchard and his handful of supporters aside. It is widely accepted that gynephiles develop autogynephilia more often but the idea of causality is seen as something that lacks any proof whatsoever.

>>8783230
>>8783250
However, this being 4chan, proud home of fringe pseudoscience as long as said science is anti-progressive, his theory has a great deal of traction here.

>>8783250
Sounds a lot like early Jungian psychology. The modern Jungian stuff rejected that as not being progressive enough.


So basically an AGP male who envisions his ideal woman as a slut will be a slut herself

>>8783222
>and that men who are with other women often cease feeling the need to become women themselves. This implies that the core identity is male and that AGP just makes you act out womanhood
AGPs are famous for transitioning despite having female partners. In any case the degrees of AGP and heterosexuality are separate from "core identity" which is malleable.

>Since she is a mate you locate in yourself rather than in the outside world isn't the implication that you see her as someone else?
No, and the term "mate" is imprecise here. An AGP can desire a male mate despite her erotic target not being him.

>autosexual
I don't know much about autosexuality outside of AGP and AAP.

>She is only a woman because you're attracted to women.
What do you mean?

>That's not the Blanchardian view.
It's a view of personhood transcendent to any theories about transgenderism.

>>8783267
>So basically an AGP male who envisions his ideal woman as a slut will be a slut herself
Well, here's the thing: AGP is thought to "compete" with heterosexuality by Blanchardians. They claim that AGPs who enter relationships with women often stop wanting to be women themselves because they're already located an external mate so they don't need to "dress up" their internal mate to their liking. That heavily implies that the core identity is still male, and that the changes are intended to make the internal mate more attractive. If this is the case why do AGPs so often fantasize about their internal mate being with a lot of other men? Why do they actually engage in sex with other men as their internal mate? After all they're not known to seek these qualities in external mates.

AGP being a fetish just makes a lot more sense.

>Sounds a lot like early Jungian psychology. The modern Jungian stuff rejected that as not being progressive enough.
Honestly there's just no proof for most of this while there is circumstantial neurological evidence supporting the idea that transsexuality is a sort of intersexuality. No definite proof yet but a lot of little arrows pointing in the same direction.

>>8783274
>AGPs are famous for transitioning despite having female partners. In any case the degrees of AGP and heterosexuality are separate from "core identity" which is malleable.
I guess the argument would be that in those cases the attraction to the inner woman trumps the attraction to the external woman.

>No, and the term "mate" is imprecise here. An AGP can desire a male mate despite her erotic target not being him.
This is probably frustrating for you at this point but I just don't follow, unless you're talking of pseudoandrophilia in which case I don't see the relation.

>What do you mean?
Well, consider a gay man with an erotic target location error of the same sort: their "inner mate" would be male. An AGP's "inner mate" is a woman because he is attracted to women, and identifying with that woman comes as a consequence of him locating that woman in himself.

>It's a view of personhood transcendent to any theories about transgenderism.
I see.

>>8783285
Sounds like what Jung would call anima identification. Which is to say they identify with their inner female. Once they get a girlfriend their project their inner female.

And of course if society is telling them that their urges are only accpectable if they are females they will identify with their inner female rather than their male identity.

Fetish is a bit of a tough word. From what I know my Jungianism he would say you can live a healthy life in this "agp" mode and transition, however the success rate is going to be pretty fucking low and should only be done if there is no other route.

>>8783100
The "erotic target" and the literal notion of location errors for it sounds a bit dubious to me too, but I'd say that there's still a paraphilic dimension with similar qualities (i.e. you are attracted to *being* what you'd otherwise be attracted to *fucking*). I call this ETLEs because I don't have any better name for it. :V

>>8783328
>The "erotic target" and the literal notion of location errors for it sounds a bit dubious to me too
What are the issues with it?

>>8783328
Do you still think that there are no autogynephiles who are not attracted to women?

>>8783297
>I guess the argument would be that in those cases the attraction to the inner woman trumps the attraction to the external woman.
Yes. The heterosexuality and AGP "compete" and which "wins" or which she experiences the most depend on circumstances and her as an individual.

>This is probably frustrating for you at this point but I just don't follow, unless you're talking of pseudoandrophilia in which case I don't see the relation.
I was talking about pseudoandrophilia because it's an example of how "mate" is vague while erotic target is precise. The point is she isn't a mate in the sense of being someone else. She is an erotic target who isn't someone else.

>An AGP's "inner mate" is a woman because he is attracted to women, and identifying with that woman comes as a consequence of him locating that woman in himself.
I agree with that but I don't follow how it implies the AGP's inner woman is someone else.

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>>8783100
if agp is 'just a fetish'
what is it when you rob a pharmacy to get opiate pain killers because 'youre just in pain'

>>8783349
pic is totally an agp

>>8783334
It sounds like a relatively arbitrary proposed mechanism which probably has not been pinned down by the evidence in enough detail.

>>8783342
... did I ever claim that? :V

Anyway, in the literal sense, yes. However, I suspect there's AGP-adj people who aren't; for example I've seen something that looked like an AGAMP/AFP gay man. It probably depends on some details about the person's sexuality. However, I think it's rare.

There are likely many* autogynephiles who are not attracted to women in an allogynephilic way. They are still attracted to women in subtler ways. Maybe they're even interested in admiration porn. However, they aren't actually interested in having sex with or being in relationships with women.

* As long as we're talking trans levels of autogynephilia; low levels of autogynephilia is common.

>>8783349
Well, you can both have gender dysphoria and be AGP..

>>8783362
>I've seen something that looked like an AGAMP/AFP gay man.
Describe please.

>>8783381
I don't know what there is to describe. He is attracted to traps and more masculine men (or at least claims to be so), he wanted to be a cute femboy/trap/GAM/etc, but also an attractive masculine man.

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>>8783100
being a slut/whore is for one degrading so it feeds the masochistic/self-hating tendencies (same motivation is often seen in women as well) so yes it makes all the sense for commonly masochistic self-lathing trannies and fetishists

and also men are promiscuous by nature and thus you inevitably get this typical "if I was a girl I'd be sleeping with everyone" fantasy or very common gay promiscuity

you take it to the ridiculous level with "cucking yourself" as if you were 2 separate personalities only one of which engages with another human...
but ironically AGP can be so selfsexual that they are incapable of having relationships and feelings for others - that's the whole attachment issue theory that is tied to ETLE

but it might as well be a complete bs, its not researched at all

>>8783470
>but ironically AGP can be so selfsexual that they are incapable of having relationships and feelings for others
source/evidence?

>>8783144 >>8783180
hah I like this one

>>8783198
>The autogynephile isn't a man. Only its body is a man
n-no! shut up Im not trans!!!!!

t.agp

>>8783505
personal stories
funny enough also form femdoms who had experiences with AGP fetishists

>>8783530
relate both kinds of story

>>8783505
Autosexuality is a known phenomenon. AGP+Autosexuality makes a lot of sense.

>>8783250
Ok, sincw you seem knowledgeable what would be response according to Blanchard on one side and his critiques on the other to my situation.

I have strong attraction to women. I like get aroused just by stading beside some, but to finish I have to imagine myself as woman, if not my arousal die. I also have some fantasies with guys despite never been attracted to one irl - here I have textbook Blanchard pseudobi or smth. I have however no desire to be girl outside sex except few minor moments. What that all that mean

>>8783595
There's no explanations for what you describe besides Blanchard's and the it's just a fetish cop-out.

>>8783641
How is it being a fetish a cop-out? There are a lot of fetishes that completely take over your sexuality. Some people can't come without focusing, for example, on someone's feet.

>>8783641
Can this be cured in any way? I mean I literally can't have normal personal and love life due to it.

>>8783691
Blanchard's dumb answer: Yes if you're underaged, no if you're an adult and if you're an adult it's going to turn you trans. Transitioning can help.

Actual answer: Probably not because there is no known way to cure deeply entrenched fetishes/paraphilias. Try incorporating it into your sex life. They're rare but there are women who are into that.

>>8783706
Then I skrewed. Mid twenties and I doubt I can find myself woman who like that (upper class catholic)

>>8783691
Jungian guy here.

Sounds pretty fixable. You're basically having a problem conceptualizing masculine and feminine identities as distinct separate things. You always need them tethered togeather as a single unit even if it's just a for a moment.

So the whole problem is psychological. Curious here. What fictional character would you say represents ideal masculinity?

I'm not an expert in trannies and I'm drunk so bear with me.

>>8783726
>Sounds pretty fixable
Whaaaaat? How can you still argue, in this day and age, that intense all-consuming paraphilias people have had for years can be cured? Next you'll tell me that you know a cure for pedophilia.

>>8783285

you have a mistunderstand about AGP. Its not getting turned on by your female self and wanting to fuck her. Its turned on by the thought of BEING female yourself that is the erotic stimulus. Their female self is not their "mate", what turns them on is actually being female themselves

This is why they often think about themselves as women with men; because it makes them feel very female and enhances the fantasy of being a woman and embodying female qualtiies

>>8783726
Aragorn and Parsival for masculinity.
I adhere strongly to knightly catholic ideals.

>>8783780
>Its not getting turned on by your female self and wanting to fuck her.
This is what ETLEs say though, which is why I think they're bogus.

>>8783100

Here is why I believe in ETLEs: when I jack off, it turns me on to think of myself as having features I'm attracted to in women. Turns me on to think of having big tits, wearing hot clothes like yoga pants or bikinis. if you look at transgender erotica, a lot of it is them being transformed into their "dream women" or what they themselves would find attractive. When they see an attractive women the thought of having her sexy, feminine features is the real turn on

>>8783793
There's no reason why this couldn't play out in the exact same way if AGP was a fetish.

>>8783763
If something is purely psychological it's not a big deal. You essentially just need to learn new ways of thinking and feeling. Something is "all-consuming" when it doesn't have a place, it dominates the whole mind looking for a suitable expression for itself.

Granted new ways of thinking can take months or even years to develop; assuming it develops at all.

As for pedophilia depends what you are talking about. I think some of it is certainly genetic, in which case a "cure" is inappropriate. If it's developed as a psychological band-aid than the problem isn't pedophilia itself, but what something else.

Keep in mind though I'm on my 4th drink right now.

>>8783789
Ok so tell me about your fantasy of being a woman. Small details are important too. Just ramble, don't need to edit yourself.

>>8783791
ETLEs are erotic target location errors, not wanting to fuck location errors.

Your female self is your erotic target, not who you want to fuck.

>>8783806

Im confused. What is your definition of fetish, and why does it exclude the possibility of ETLEs. its possible that even a massive foot fetish could be the result of unusual erotic targeting

>>8783789
>>8783814
inb4 she wants to be the perfect chivalric bride of said knights

>>8783815
>>8783817
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erotic_target_location_error

>>8783791
>This is what ETLEs say though, which is why I think they're bogus.

No, that is not what they say. You don't understand the concept. It's being aroused at the thought of BEING your erotic interest, not at the thought of fucking yourself. It's a small but crucial difference.

>>8783834
In your own words please.

>>8783814
It most of the time really come out in sexual contects. I imagine myself as a elegant woman or nerdy girl being either take or just indulging in lesbian fantasy with other girl or tgirl. It basically allowing myself to look pretty (visual wise for me ideal woman are Eva Green and younger Nicole Kidman), submissive, something just really turn me on with this tought and have been with me forever. I also remember begging masturbating to lesbian agp fantasies while still basically a kid - with body swaping ofc. My most comon was shitching body with girl from school and went lesbo with teacher. Others are like I said being taken by man, where he as such really don't matter.

Outside sex have only come feww times and funnily enough it is combined with reverting to my personality when I was like 14 or smth. More geeky and so on.

>>8783821
This ideals come from upbringing not erotic fantasies of any kind. And I'm HE.

>>8783838
You're aroused by BEING your erotic interest because you perceive yourself as a mate. That is, it is arousing to you because you detect a mate with the qualities that arouse you.

>>8783817
Being aroused by something happening to you doesn't have to be connected to an ETLE e.g. bondage.

>>8783815
>>8783839
I feel that you don't understand the basic idea behind the concept. See the first response in this post.

>>8783854
>Outside sex have only come feww times and funnily enough it is combined with reverting to my personality when I was like 14 or smt

So you would say this feminine form of yourself is closer to you when you were younger.

I'll throw this out. When it comes to contextualizing genders the young ages, before puberty happens is a time of androgyny. You haven't really started seeing girls as something that you perform certain roles with and you even look very similar in terms of muscle mass, bone structure, and hair.

What it sounds like you are telling me is that your fantasy of being a woman is a reconnection with your childhoodself. I want you to answer 3 things.

First give your thoughts on my theory in any words of your choosing.

Than discuss the type of woman your lesbian self imagines being with. Please include what their role is (you mentioned teacher)

Third your religion and how devoted you feel to it and anything relevant to it you wish to add.

>>8783860
>And I'm HE.

>agp's
>he's

>>8783868

I still think you really don't grasp the concept. It's not about wanting to fuck yourself. It's simply being aroused at the thought of being your desire and embodying their qualities.

>>8783868
>You're aroused by BEING your erotic interest because you perceive yourself as a mate. That is, it is arousing to you because you detect a mate with the qualities that arouse you.
That's circular logic. You're defining mate as what you're erotically interested in.

>>8783920
>It's simply being aroused at the thought of being your desire and embodying their qualities.
You don't understand *why* this is the case. You're aroused by these things BECAUSE you see yourself as a mate and are aroused by detecting a mate with the qualities you find erotic. This is the whole idea behind ETLEs. This is why it is an Error - you're treating yourself as if you're an external entity that it makes sense to be attracted to. You locate yourself as a mate instead of locating it in the outside world.

>>8783931
No, I mean mate as in the dictionary definition of mate. This is the entire idea behind ETLEs. You erroneously locate yourself as a potential mate instead of finding one in the outside world. Fitting your erotic taste arouses you because you perceive yourself as someone else and that someone is arousing to you.

>>8783868
>>8783872

I don't think I percive myself as mate at all. It is just something about being female or in female role that is arousing to me to such extent that I can't do it otherwise.

Your theory is interesting imao, only that I wouldn't say that it is a reconnection to childhoodself but to early adolescence. For example - I was rocker/metalhead in late elementary school and one of examples outside sex when I imagined myself as female was when I was after loooonggg time pull my guitar and started playing, and I suddenly started to imagine that I'm a gitlrl playing guitar and not me. Image was kind of Charlie Bradsbury from Supernatural - she is simmialr to me in making stupid faces. But otherwise it is really only sexual.

When I imagine myself as lesbian, other women is also femme like ''me''' but ussually older, more experienced, I still remember one of first porn sites I watched when very young, I think it was called saphic erotica and were pictures of two woman, one was young, a bit shy, pale ginger and other was hot, blonde milf in erotic underwear. I was imagining myself as younger one while fapping to this. They are ussualy more dominant and teacher like.

My religion is Catholicism, I feel ''philosophicaly'' devout. Like I know theology and such and believe in it, but can't find real faith and suck at adhering all commandment. I

Perhaps it is also important to add that while several times are some instances like one with guitar above they are other, when I feel like I don't fit for real with man (popular in company otherwise) and that I'm somewhat insuficiently manly (regarded otherwise though).

>>8783901
What are we than? Women because of feitsh? lol

>>8783860
>I'm HE.
High Explosive warhead?

>>8783996
Well what you essentially have is two images of yourself. A younger version and an adult.

One is clearly your younger self and the other I think is either your adult self or the promise of becoming fully a woman.

>when I feel like I don't fit for real with man (popular in company otherwise) and that I'm somewhat insuficiently manly

Ok now. Here's how the mind works according to my Jungian training.
"I am not a man or at least not very good at it." Now since the opposite of man is woman and that means you are a good woman or at least have potential to be one.

So your mind backtracks looking for any bit femininity it can use as a starting point. It goes back to your early years before you fully fell into the role of a man, puberty was just starting. And there it finds the nessiary effeminate. But that was in the past and you are much older now, in convential terms you would be a "woman" now. So that younger female image desires union with the present, with yourself right now as a "lady"

Now. Feel free to respond however you wish but also answer me this. Do you have any particular strong thoughts to the female symbols of your religion, a Saint, an Angel, or the Virgin Mary herself?

>>8783996
>I don't think I percive myself as mate at all
I don't think anyone does. I think this whole theory is really dumb.

>>8783806
How could such a fetish happen psychologically?

>>8784030
Hmm, interesting. ''Lady'' make sense due to being upper class, point is, I can't really find this wishes in every day life. It is like absent. I would like to ask what are my options now ? What can I do?

And yes, I have devotion to Virgin Mary, but I also have strong devotion to st. Michael the Archangel. - funny thing is my female image lets most of this expectation from religion, upbringing, philosophical formation etc. away.

>>8783505
just check agpgen

>>8784094
>funny thing is my female image lets most of this expectation from religion, upbringing, philosophical formation etc. away.

This is normal. Female symbols, for men, are especially potent in philosophical and religious thinking.

>I can't really find this wishes in every day life
Largely because it's a personal problem. It's just an expression of yourself struggling to try to be effiminate since you think you can't be masculine. You can transfer some of the problem to a partner. For instance. Let's say you found a woman that for whatever psychological reason wanted to play the maternal role to a daughter. Well you could fully embrace your femininity and be her daughter.

As you can imagine this is not easy, good news is if you pull it off both you and her will be emotionally dependant on each other and the marriage will be strong.

Alternatively and what I would recommend is you need to create yourself into something worthy of being masculine. Emphasis on 'worthy', might appeal to your knightly self-image. I dougbt you will be able to do it 100% there's probably going to be some effiminity left, residues of childhood. That stuff is fine, it's good to have a bit of childhood magic. It's a question of quantity.

Female religious symbols are pretty useful. They sort of provide an anchor that makes effiminity a type of 'otherness'. In that regard they are even more importaint than the masculine ones. If you are masculine yourself you actually need the female symbol to use as a contrast.

I'm curious, Jung-anon, what do you think of transsexuality in general?

>>8784173
The vast majority of you should not transition.

You're half dead humans with the living have having to work double shifts just to keep from going into free fall.

mtf are interesting to me purely as a type of study since I specialize in effiminate thinking in males.

I do not want to know a thing about ftm or even speak to them.

>>8784030
really nice stuff anon
im not the person you've been talking to, but have been reading the thread and a bit drunk myself and i agree with alot of what you have to say. If your interested in it, i would very much like for you to analyze my tranny thoughts and feelings and help me come to a clearer understanding based on your "Jungian psychology".

>>8784197
As I thought.

>>8784159
Thank you for interesting reply.

1. This is interesting about female simbols. however, I meant that all my formation if I conceptualise as a female fells apart. It is like a new person emerge simmilar to young me, instead of mid 20ies conservative academic, mid 20ies geeky metal chick. This instances were to few to say for real though, but basically my concious ego need to be killed for ''her'' to emerge or smth?

2. This is very interesting. I saw once here on the board that agp come from ''emasculation anxiety'' - so therefore could this be some kind of defense mechanism against fear of failing as a man instead of ''burried real me'' ?

This is with women is interesting - but problem will arive if we would have children, how would I be able to be father in full sense of word? If wife would have to be my mother and I her daugher? This sound problematic in the long run.

I think that if I perhaps get myself in hand and acchive great carrer quickly this could happen, but still my masculinity is much more cultured and not so much ''vulgar'' or ''street like'', so some feminity could be really integrated, but still, what worries me is that perhaps this could eventualy evolve into greater dysphoria if I would not deal with it like it should be donne.

This about religion is interested. I could found some other female saint that I like, like st. Hildegard.

>>8784199
(Jung is a haaaaaaack dreams don't mean shitttttttt)

>>8784199
If the thread is still around when my hang over starts sure. I really got into this type of thinking to study homosexuality but appearently there is some overlap with trannies.

>This instances were to few to say for real though, but basically my concious ego need to be killed for ''her'' to emerge or smth

The 20ish "lady" is your potential future where you fully accept your role as being effeminate. You won't be upset you arn't masculine because it's no longer what you beleive you should aspire for. And yes, you will die if you turn into that.

Alternative future you become worthy of being masculine. Ideal ending would be you find someone that can a surrogate younger version of yourself (the 14 year old metal chic) someone that you can provide a nurturing role to. Say your daughter or a younger peer.

the 3rd option is varying degrees of confusion and teetering between the two (what you are now). If you stay in this mode without changing you go with the first one I listed.

>intergrating effiminity
This is part of becoming a complete human being. You just don't want to be swallowed by it, it's degrees. I will also say this. A woman that is loyal to you and stays with you in the long term can be effeminate in your place. This is also degrees. By people's vary nature they have inner effiminity, a proper wife just takes some of the weight off you. She doesn't nip it from the root.

>I could found some other female saint that I like, like st. Hildegard.
Probably a good idea. I don't know a thing about the Saints so I can't recommend paritculars. Just that having a female symbol is a strong point of stability.

>>8784002
Yes, flying toward hons

>>8784238
woow, interesting af. Finaly one who can talk with reason about all this. May I ask you, what do you is source of this thoughts? Is it trauma, biology, or smth else? Can they ever go complety away?

This sound interesting about trying to become worthy masculine, however when I try this last time I failed dramaticaly. I was working out a bit since I was alway unathletic, went shooting more, grow much longer beard than ussual, look for male rolle models more, but agp fantasies were striking much harder than usually and my sex drive skyrocketed. It wasn't many pleasant (ended 5 months ago when I givee up on this try).

About wife sounds interesting, I must really find new gf soon. Still, that's easy finding appropriate one is hard.

>>8784263
There's going to be an exchange rate. Basically for every unit of femininity you integrate you can become masculine in such a degree. So you need to do both not nessiarially at the same time but you can't just abounden one.

The reason you're like this. Gender masculinity/feminity confusion is a world wide problem.


Gonna sleep now

>>8784305
That Jungian and now I'm drunk two lol. I can see that I would most likely need theraphy also. Sad thing is only that I doubt there are therapist dealing with this who don't encourage people to transition and help them live normally. I'm scarred af because being called she before didn't felt so bad despite I reacted otherwise damn.

>>8785875
Who knows what you get out of therapy?

What you are describing is a masculinity crisis. Which is the type of thing that often requires philosophical/religious/spiritual answers. Therapists sometimes have them but they aren't magic.

Get your testosterone checked, if it's low that's very good news because getting it up is easy. Any other types of fixes are going to fall into spiritual development which is difficult and personal.

One thing that will NOT work is merely thrusting masculine things on yourself. The reason it will not work is because whenever you are presented with masculine symbols you have both the opportunity to accept it or find it alien to you. I think the best starting point is to find something about yourself which is already masculine and branch to things related to it.

>>8784199
Sober now.

>>8786959
I'm full of philosophical and religious answers - I study classics btw. Problem is that with sexuality all thus rationality escape and demons come back

>>8787204
I'm not your spiritual guru. You'll probably have better looking into irrational forms of your religion's thinking. Mysticism or something. There's nothing rational about sexuality or preferring masculinity over femininity. It's all about feelings.

>>8783100
ETLE is one of the parts of blanchardism that's pure meme. The other is AGP as an etiology for transgenderism

>>8783100
AGP is so fun. When I spend time running my hands all over my cute girl body curves, ass and tits, squishing my cute lil bweasts, I feel like I can now die in peace. I'm seriously attracted to my own body, I spend as much time nude as possible so I can look at it.

Bisexual AGP with no genital dysphoria is the most fun sexual orientation you can have. Not only can you screw cis bi girls who have fantasies of a cute girl who can do PiV, you can find a guy that will enjoy your body with you.

>>8787560
Thanks for advices man, really appreciate. Do you have any Jung's book to recomend? I have only read Man and his symbols long time ago

>>8787708
>Bisexual AGP with no genital dysphoria is the most fun sexual orientation you can have.
I raise you bisexual cisfem AGP.

Why are you talking about humans like they're two different people? Saying a person can cuck themselves is like saying a man is gay for touching his dick. There's no other "you" in your head.

>>8789156
Because ETLEs kind of imply a soft form of schizophrenia

>>8783116
I actually got more agp with transition soooo

>>8789204
Are you presenting in public? For how long have you been on HRT? Do you still feel shame about being feminine?

>>8789212
Yes, two and a half years, and that depends. I don't feel shame about my body being feminine at all, I feel shame about it being masculine.

On the flipside, I'm uncomfortable with a lot of clothing that's overtly or stereotypically feminine. Not because I don't like it, but mostly I'm just paranoid about looking like a man in a dress : /

>>8789337
Interesting. You're the only case I've heard of where medically and socially transitioning for over 2 years didn't make AGP go away. Why do you think that is?

>>8789402
How many cases have you looked at...?

I mean, maybe it's because I don't mean AGP like the Blanchard's typology AGP, as much as the stricter definition where I'm just attracted to myself when I look good.

It could be cause I don't consistently see myself the same way, some days I think I look like a mongoloid and other days I think I look cute. Idk t b h fampai

>>8789454
>How many cases have you looked at...?
In specific? I've heard from ~7 people here, 4 of whom spoke of it in detail. I've also heard this repeated by a lot of people elsewhere, but they very rarely relayed their personal experience. At the very least this is prevalent enough that Lawrence and Blanchard came up with explanations for it (including the infamous romantic love/pair bonding line).

>I'm just attracted to myself when I look good
Do you get aroused by being being feminine in looks or behavior, or by just looking good? If the latter maybe you're just autosexual.

This thread is weapons grade autism. If I could take this thread and put it in a warhead the whole world would be lining up anime figures by tomorrow.

>>8789555
this whole board is
every blanchard thread is concentrated no-meme autism with regulars so autistic they cant grasp conventional logic but devise their own 'science'

Does anyone have link to some articles pro and contra Blanchard? We can't deny that there is more types of trannies, but only one dealing with this are Blanchard and Anne Vitale (her article was linked in the thread).

>>8789490
>Do you get aroused by being being feminine in looks or behavior, or by just looking good? If the latter maybe you're just autosexual.

Uhhhh, I'm not sure? I used to look reasonably good as a guy but I don't think I was attracted to myself at all because of it. Although I always had the vague feeling that my appearance was alien to myself, like it wasn't really me or something, until well into my transition (about a year or so).

I don't think it's entirely about looks though, but it's difficult to be specific because I'm usually not trying to invoke these feelings, they just happen.

I've looked into the differences in men's and women's sexuality and one of the things about women's sexuality is that it's very much role based and situational. I think this "self-insert" thing isn't just an AGP phenomenon, but like a general underlying trend of sub personalities independent of their sexual orientation. I think if there's any sort of ETLE going on, it's misidentifying the /role/ that I'm playing with a sexual one.

>>8789574
I can tolerate blanchardistes because agp happens to tons of trannies including me who fapped to my own ass in panties before transition. But this entirely went away and I can only describe it as a fetishism born out of a cocktail of gynephilia and repression from an estrogen biology I deeply needed. I only have dysphoria towards myself now

vast, vast majority of mtfs will agree that their agp phase is a result of bodily denial plus testosterone fueled sexuality, the blanchardiste universalism, etle autism and etc takes it way too far as seen by this thread and completely ignores alternate explanations that mtfs literally say fits their narrative best

however i do tolerate blanchardistes and think a minority of mtfs can fit a blanchardist narrative so good for them i guess

>>8789620
>but only one dealing with this are Blanchard and Anne Vitale
The DSM acknowledges that age of onset correlates with sexual orientation, GNC behavior during childhood and autogynephilic fantasies. That's mainstream science. What's not accepted are the etiological claims i.e. that AGP causes one type to be trans while social pressure and rejection cause the other to be trans.

>>8789631
in the end its all absolutely pointless since no one knows how to 'cure' AGP and avoid development of dysphoria

>>8789624
Okay so, basically, I think that if you're an autosexual and trans you can be turned on by yourself post-transition but not pre-transition because you don't identify with your natal sex. The question is whether you're turned on by yourself because you're yourself in a body you don't hate now, like an autosexual, or because you're feminine, like an autogynephile.

What do you think? How would you describe your feelings?

>>8789631
>I can only describe it as a fetishism born out of a cocktail of gynephilia and repression
OP here. I also think that's the cause. I made the thread to highlight how ridiculous I think the concept is.

Please consider telling your story here. It might help convince some people of the same.
>>8789497

>>8789671
I just like tits but I don't like the females attached to them, so if I had my own pair it would make life so much easier.

ERROR ERROR

ERROR CODE TR4N5: EROTIC TARGET LOCATION ERROR.

>>8789671
Well, I was just saying what I thought it was, but if you insist, I'd say that both of those feelings are relevant. My femininity and self-image are both essential components of my self-attraction.

Maybe I'm both and agp came along for the ride and got twisted up into self-attraction. As I said though, I doubt that, and think it's more likely I simply confuse generic female/submissive male sexuality for autogynephilia. I said AGP mostly because it definitely hinges on me being a woman in some sense or another.

Even if I am autosexual I'm definitely not exclusively autosexual, because I've been in relationships and would rather be with someone else than just being aroused by myself.

>>8789751
Sorry if I was rude. Thanks for sharing.

>>8789777
No, you weren't being rude, but you did kinda skip over my analysis for the low-hanging intellectual fruit of autosexuality, which is actually a completely seperate term than the one I believe you're looking for, which is autoeroticism, and which /definitely/ applies to me. I highly recommend looking at the Wikipedia article for it. Specifically the section on women.

>>8789793
I didn't get what you said in your second post from your first post. I use autoeroticism and autosexuality more or less interchangeably. I read that article ages and ages ago. Are they not the same thing?

>>8789820
I can't seem to find the Ted talk which was a perfect example of what I was talking about, but that and reading over an article like this

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html

It's pretty obvious to me that my sexuality is not male, and that the way it works is fundamentally incompatible with the standard notion of autogynophilia, in spite of involving arousal to myself.

And yeah, autoeroticism any sort of internal creation of arousal like fantasizing , and autosexual is specific to being aroused by your own touch.

>>8789930
I'll read the article.

>t's pretty obvious to me that my sexuality is not male, and that the way it works is fundamentally incompatible with the standard notion of autogynophilia, in spite of involving arousal to myself.
You obviously know yourself better than I do. I only focused on autogynephilia because you initially said that you still had it (before clarifying).

>And yeah, autoeroticism any sort of internal creation of arousal like fantasizing , and autosexual is specific to being aroused by your own touch.
Alright, I haven't heard of this distinction before but if that's the case then my bad. Apologies.

>>8789646
Aha. Vitale present different level of masculisation/feminisation of brains as reasons for this

>>8789930
>>8789954
Just finished the article. Great read. Thanks for linking it.

File: ray.jpg (65KB, 964x623px) Image search: [Google]

65KB, 964x623px

>>8789930
>trans women, both those who were heterosexual and those who were homosexual, responded genitally and subjectively in categorical ways. They responded like men

>>8790406
lmao yeah I thought of that too. Not surprising, or contradictory of the intersex theory.

>>8789454
>I mean, maybe it's because I don't mean AGP like the Blanchard's typology AGP, as much as the stricter definition where I'm just attracted to myself when I look good.
What's the difference?