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Daily reminder that pushing your Blanchard memes hurts actual people. Some already know this which is why they're pushing this false narrative in the first place but this is for the rest of you: please realize your actions have actual victims.
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>>8771201
>Memes
It's "victims" just further prove it's legitimacy.
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>>8771201
Reminder Blanchard was right and facts don't care about your feelings. Accepting your true self without lies or nonsense is possible. #AGPpride
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I don't think it hurts. I have obligatory agp but I feel ok as man, and I would not chose to be born as female if I have this chance. Therefore for me reverse would be hurtful
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>>8771201
Reminder that denying AGP hurts actual people, like all the teen boys convinced they are really women on the inside, who pursue medical treatments they don't always need.
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>>8771207
>>8771210
Is that why basically no manual out there recognizes the AGP/HSTS typology? There is no proof that AGP causes transsexuality, just that it correlates with it (and correlates with it at an even higher rate in gynephiles).
>>8771213
Okay, so you just have a fetish. You can be trans and have a fetish and you can be cis and have a fetish.
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>>8771224
That's for political reasons, as you know.
There's no proof there's more going on. Everything we know is consistent with AGP being the sole cause of non-HSTS transitioners. Simplest explanation.
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>>8771224
>Is that why basically no manual out there recognizes the AGP/HSTS typology?
Even the current DSM recognizes late transitioners are different from early transitioners. That's recognition of AGP/HSTS in all but name.
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>>8771224
I don't deny it, I would just like to have normal sex life without this shit and I can't get off without. Sadly, we know where modern and progressive mental health professionals would push people like me.
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>>8771218
Actual professionals don't deny autogynephilia exists. What is denied is that it is a cause of gender dysphoria. That it is more than a paraphilia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard%27s_transsexualism_typology#DSM-5
>In DSM-5, published in 2013, With autogynephilia (sexual arousal by thoughts, images of self as a female) is a specifier to 302.3 Transvestic disorder (intense sexual arousal from cross-dressing fantasies, urges or behaviors); the other specifier is With fetishism (sexual arousal to fabrics, materials or garments).
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>>8771239
Which is preposterous if you've encountered crossdressers, autogynephiles, or transwomen. It's all the same thing.
Not all the professionals deny it. There is no evidence gender identity exists at all.
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>>8771234
>That's for political reasons, as you know.
No, I don't know. Blaming scientific consensus on politics is a sketchy argument of last resort. Had you any positive proof you'd present it instead.
>There's no proof there's more going on.
Yes there is.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4699258/
>The results of this study show that the white matter microstructure in FtM and MtF transsexuals falls halfway between that of FCs and MCs. Our data harmonize with the hypothesis that fiber tract development is influenced by the hormonal environment during late prenatal and early postnatal brain development that is proposed to determine gender identity.
>Here, we investigated whether sexual orientation associates with diffusivity measures. No effects on our main findings were observed when sexual orientation was regressed out in the ANCOVA design. Moreover, there was no significant effect of sexual orientation on diffusivity parameters in the regression analysis including all subjects and using group as factor of no interest.
>Everything we know is consistent with AGP being the sole cause of non-HSTS transitioners
It does nothing to explain why both groups exhibit gender-atypical brain structures before hormones or why every single study ever conducted shows only about 80% of non-androphiles are AGP and that about 20% of androphiles are AGP.
>>8771237
It recognizes a correlation between age of onset, sexual orientation, childhood GNC behavior and experiencing autogynephilia. It does NOT, at all, recognize the two proposed etiologies.
>>8771238
If you told a progressive mental health professional that you have a fetish and don't identify as a woman they'd accept that.
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>>8771237
As in, it does not recognize that androphiles develop gender dysphoria because society rejects them as men and also they want to better be able to tempt men and gynephiles have some theoretical erotic target location error which causes them to seek a partner inside themselves and they promptly change themselves to be their own partner because they fell in love with themselves. Neither concept has any proof for it (unlike the rest, which Blanchard actually did show empirically) which is why neither is accepted.
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>>8771279
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4699258/
> n=5 of homosexual males
wew
There's lots of studies showing that only androphilic trannies have conspicuously feminized brains.
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>>8771272
Damage the right part of your brain stem in a violent accident, and your gender identity can change. But oh gee, it's not real! There's no evidence!
You "AGP"-obsessed nuts are absolute fucking cancer. There's no denying the fetish exists - people of all orientations, trans and cis have it. Even FtMs have described having AGP fantasies on this board. But there is absolutely zero evidence it causes lesbian transgenderism, and ALL evidence actually runs contrary to it. Why would a real paraphilia vanish with HRT? Why would people driven to transition by a paraphilia have cross-sex identities in childhood? Why would heterosexual trans women be AGP if that was what made them transition?
You people need to be dropped off a bridge. You're the flat-earthers of the trans community.
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>>8771318
> Damage the right part of your brain stem in a violent accident, and your gender identity can change.
Link? Nobody has a gender identity.
>Even FtMs have described having AGP fantasies on this board.
They don't
> But there is absolutely zero evidence it causes lesbian transgenderism, and ALL evidence actually runs contrary to it.
Wrong. It's obvious that the cross-dresser to transbian life path is sexually driven.
> Why would a real paraphilia vanish with HRT?
It doesn't. HRT reduces the sex drive and makes the paraphilia less intense.
> Why would people driven to transition by a paraphilia have cross-sex identities in childhood?
AGPs are not typical gender-confused kids. They'll become aware of cross dressing arousal at a young age, like straight kids are aware they like girls before puberty.
> Why would heterosexual trans women be AGP if that was what made them transition?
They aren't.
> You're the flat-earthers of the trans community.
You deniers of AGP are the flat earthers.
Why does this anonymous board talk about AGP so much? Because it's a useful way to understand your life if you have AGP. Denying it harms people.
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>>8771315
What is the relevance of your argument? Even without any androphiles the study would be proof of feminization in the gynephiles.
>There's lots of studies showing that only androphilic trannies have conspicuously feminized brains.
You're misunderstanding the literature. Gay men also have brains which are feminized in the same fashion. Trans brains are feminized in ways which are distinct from the way in which the brains of gay men are feminized and both androphiles and gynephiles share these features. Features which gynephilic transsexuals don't exhibit, gay men exhibit.
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>>8771318
This.
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Daily reminder that denying the existence of agp makes it extremely hard for agp trans to overcome their natural femininity and complicity and transition. They need lots of reassurance and encouragement unlike their brash and aggressive Hsts counterparts.
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Agp is the sexuality off at least 3/4 of my cishet girlfriends this shit is hilarious.
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>>8771376
explain this!
how can you tell??
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>>8771279
I haven't been to mental health professional yet, since I don't have money on my own (eternal student and dorm legend) and I don't wont my parents to know. But from what I have read most don't consider agp as mere fetish and won't even try to treat it.
Therefore, since I have some signs of what some people call indirect dysphoria you know where they would push me, but I know that I have always wanted to be just normal man, eventualy husband and father.
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>>8771343
> Even without any androphiles the study would be proof of feminization
Oh right, because they found a statistically significant difference indicative of feminization and nothing else?
Separate ANOVAs for GMV, WMV, CSF, and TIV revealed significant differences between the four groups, with larger volumes found in genetic males than genetic females. Interestingly, except for CSF, volumes exhibited also a transition: FC < FtM < MtF < MC (for means ± SDs, see Table 1). Post hoc pairwise comparisons revealed significantly larger volumes in MCs compared with FCs and FtM transsexuals and in MtF transsexuals compared with FCs for all volumes (p < 0.05, Bonferroni’s corrected). Other comparisons showed only a trend (MtF > FtM for GMV; FtM > FC for GMV, WMV, and TIV) or no difference (MC > MtF for GMV, WMV, CSF, and TIV; FtM > FC for CSF).
> Other comparisons showed only a trend
Oh right, it's fucking nothing. Come back when you've got a p-value for MtFs versus male controls.
>Trans brains are feminized in ways which are distinct from the way in which the brains of gay men are feminized
Prove it
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>>8771351
No, gender is real and innate, but gender identity is bullshit.
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>>8771201
Daily reminder that pushing your anti-Blanchard "AGPs are invalid" memes hurts actual people. You should instead spend your energy on helping people embrace their AGP.
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>>8771403
Why would I try to make people embrace a paraphilia most dislike having?
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>>8771395
You're not looking at what the study is actually checking, only at the preliminary tests!
>Separate correlation analyses were performed to examine the association between diffusivities and age and between volumetric data [gray matter volume (GMV), white matter volume (WMV), CSF, and TIV] and age for each group.
>Oh right, it's fucking nothing
The neural difference between men and women is expressed in trends, not absolutely.
>Prove it
Sure. A lot of studies on this page show that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality
Here's one:
https://academic.oup.com/brain/article-lookup/doi/10.1093/brain/awn276
>Our data reveal a sex-atypical INAH3 volume and neuron number in transsexual male-to-female people to be in the female range, while the values of a female-to-male subject were in the male range. Differences in adult testosterone levels can only partly explain the observed differences in the INAH3 subdivision of transsexual people while estrogen levels do not seem to have an influence. In male-to-female subjects the number of neurons in the INAH3 does not seem to be related to sexual orientation, nor to the onset time of transsexuality, but rather to atypical early female-biased gender. The differences observed between the INAH3 structure, its innervation in relation to sexual orientation and gender identity and its putative connection to the BSTc suggest that these two nuclei, together with the SDN-POA (= intermediate nucleus, = INAH1 and 2) and the SCN (Swaab et al., 1985) are part of a complex network involved in various aspects of sexual behaviour. For the INAH4 subdivision of the uncinate nucleus, the only difference found among the groups was in relation to its shape, which was similar in all genetically male groups studied.
It specifically goes into how orientation is associated with size but identity is associated with neuron count.
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>>8771437
> The neural difference between men and women is expressed in trends, not absolutely.
They don't even report a statistically significant difference between MtF and MCs.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality
top kek, wikipedia is the least partial source on tranny science this side of RationalWiki
>https://academic.oup.com/brain/article-lookup/doi/10.1093/brain/awn276
> Post-mortem brain material was used from 42 subjects
wew lad, dead post-hormonal tranny brains
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>>8771213
>and I would not chose to be born as female if I have this chance.
Why not?
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>>8771446
>They don't even report a statistically significant difference between MtF and MCs.
Yes they bloody do, and you'd know this if you bothered reading the study.
>Whole-brain TBSS analysis revealed widespread differences in MD, AD, and RD maps between the investigated groups, whereas no significant voxels were found for FA maps. Differences in MD included virtually all white matter tracts. Post hoc pairwise comparisons revealed the transition MC < MtF < FtM < FC, with MD values and number of significant voxels increasing significantly (Figs. 1, ,2).2). In other words, female biological sex and female gender identity were associated with increased MD. FCs had significantly higher MD values than FtM transsexuals in voxels within the right cerebral peduncle, bilateral internal and external capsule, right posterior corona radiate, right hippocampal cingulum, bilateral stria terminalis, right superior longitudinal fasciculus, body and splenium of corpus callosum, right frontal, superior, and postcentral blades, and bilateral parietal and temporal blades.
>top kek, wikipedia is the least partial source on tranny science this side of RationalWiki
The lovely thing about Wikipedia is that it cites its claims so if you find something suspicious you can just follow up on the citation. It's the source of [citation needed], you know?
>wew lad, dead post-hormonal tranny brains
Post-mortem studies are common in neurology. Hormones were accounted for.
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>>8771454
Because I'm european male, why would I would want to be anything else? Don't make any sense
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>>8771469
>Yes they bloody do, and you'd know this if you bothered reading the study.
Where do they report the statistical significance of the comparison MtF versus MC?
> Post-mortem studies are common in neurology. Hormones were accounted for.
> study dead post hormonal trannies
> claim somehow this tells you about young pre hormonal trannies
No.
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>>8771337
>Why does this anonymous board talk about AGP so much?
Because we've had few mentally ill people, like Trent, Cara, Surveyanon, aggressively push it.
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>>8771483
>Where do they report the statistical significance of the comparison MtF versus MC?
In the section I quoted and those following it.
>Hormones
It goes into how it accounted for them..
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>>8771497
Where does it report statistical significance? Can you quote their p-value for the MtF versus MC difference?
> It goes into how it accounted for them..
It's stupid to claim you can account for the effects of decades on hormones with certainty.
If you aren't studying pre-hormonal trannies and controlling for sexual orientation, your study a shit.
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>>8771476
>why would I would want to be anything else?
Because you're an AGP.
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>>8771201
just because something hurts, doesn't make it incorect
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>>8771531
So, something that only come while horny should make me want to be something else lol
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>>8771489
>people I don't like are mentally ill
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>>8771536
Right. What makes it incorrect is being incorrect, and the reason most people push it is because they know it is hurtful.
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>>8771337
>>Even FtMs have described having AGP fantasies on this board.
>They don't
That alone is obvious bullshit, it happens pretty often and is extremely easy to find off this board too. it's why the transtrender fujoshi meme got so big.
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>>8771279
No one who talks about it here is talking about the proposed etiologies.
It's tragic that there's no better way to talk about there being an essential difference between two groups of trans woman than to use Blanchard's terms, but I don't see you trying to do better.
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>>8771556
You mean AAP, the wanting to be a male version of AGP?
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>>8771577
>tragic
apt*
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>>8771577
>No one who talks about it here is talking about the proposed etiologies.
I wish you were right but you aren't. People here genuinely believe that AGP turns people trans (they somehow forget about HSTSs being "super gay men" though..)
>It's tragic that there's no better way to talk about there being an essential difference between two groups of trans woman than to use Blanchard's terms, but I don't see you trying to do better.
I did try once or twice. It didn't go well.
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>>8771547
I'm not sure how you can deny their mental illnesses.
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>>8771547
>literal stalkers
>not mentally ill
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>tfw my pattern of romantic and sexual attraction to guys is more similar to cis girl's
>still somehow called and considered merely pseudobi just because I'm slightly agp too
Last thing I thought about as I was sucking my boyfriend's dick was some obscure comparison of seeing myself as feminine yet apparently not even liking to put dicks in your mouth counts as legitimate attraction nowadays.
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>>8771589
Ok no one was an overstatement. But lots of people who talk about "agp" don't, and I really wish there were a better way to discuss the concept.
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>>8771392
>Since I have some signs of what some people call indirect dysphoria
Waitwhat?
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>>8771543
But you don't only feel it when you're horny do you?
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>>8771606
Cheak out Zinnia Jones: Was that dysphoria
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>>8771605
I think probably most people here talk about AGP that way
>I really wish there were a better way to discuss the concept.
I agree
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>>8771582
I assumed that was what anon meant, since it makes literally no sense to say FTMs are AGP.
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>>8771610
Mostly only there. Rest of time is very minimal and I'm quite masculine and ok with being male therefore...
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>>8771414
>most dislike having
[citation needed]
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>>8771630
the internet being filled to the brim with sad trannies going "i sholdn't transition it's just a fetish ;_; please kill me ;_;"
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This thread is so fucking confusing to me.
Agp is being aroused at the thought of being a women?
So some people think being agp can lead to people being trans, and some don't, is that the fundamental disagreement here?
Someone explain
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>>8771201
A*P helped me accept myself desu
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>>8771630
I dislike it
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>>8771663
>Agp is being aroused at the thought of being a women?
AGP is whatever you want it to be that's not whatever you define as HSTS.
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>>8771663
Some people think AGP turns people trans
Some people think you're already born trans and AGP is something you tend to develop more often because repression fucks you up
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>>8771635
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_bias#Symptom-based_sampling
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>>8771626
You are barely agp if you feel it only when horny.
>>8771663
It doesn't necessarily have to be arousal at the thought of being a woman but it can be arousal at acting feminine. According to Blanchard (the author of the theory) you also can't have legitimate attraction to guys if you have agp fantasies which is why the person in the OP is so depressed about it. According to Blanchard anyone who is agp and considers themselves bisexual or homosexual (as in attracted to men) isn't attracted to men really but rather has just let their agp fantasies get far enough to enable themselves to be with men because it makes them feel more like a woman.
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>>8771694
There is no reason given Blanchard's results that some effeminate bisexual men couldn't be HSTS type. It doesn't change the conclusion.
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>>8771689
You'd at least expect people to be open about it in spaces like this one, where they're open about all kinds of socially unacceptable things like racism, but you get the same suicidal trannies here.
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>>8771694
So you can't simultaneously have agp (Which sounds like a fetish to me) and legitimately like guys?
Why not? Seems like an arbitrary restriction to me.
If agp is a fetish, why would it relate to sexual orientation? Can't people of all orientations have any fetish?
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>>8771698
There is. Anyone who isn't exclusively an androphile must necessarily be an autogynephile, and autogynephiles are oriented toward themselves as women and in some cases also toward women.
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>>8771694
Thanks God if this is the case. Problem is, I can't get aroused without this fantasies
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>>8771710
That isn't true. Given Blanchard's studies and the other follow ups, you could easily have HSTS bisexuals, and perhaps some schizophrenic men who'd convinced themselves they are women. It would be silly to say there were zero men in the world who wanted to be women for some other reason. The typology is a trend, not an iron rule.
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>>8771707
The theory is that AGP is not just a fetish but an "Erotic Target Location Error", which means that instead of looking for a mate in the outside world you look for one within yourself. Since you're attracted to women you're compelled to turn yourself into a woman so you are what you're attracted to. This wouldn't be the case for someone attracted to men.
The theory also posits that male-attracted transsexuals are very feminine gay men who can't deal with society rejecting them as "failed men" for not being manly enough and transition to avoid being bullied. A secondary motivation is to tempt straight men into sleeping with them, thus increasing their dating pool.
It sounds arbitrary because it is.
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>>8771707
>If agp is a fetish, why would it relate to sexual orientation? Can't people of all orientations have any fetish?
Because the theory of AGPTS is that it's caused by "erotic target location error" ie. your brain treats you as your sexual partner
>Why not? Seems like an arbitrary restriction to me.
Blanchard doesn't think bisexuals exist
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>>8771715
He specifically wrote that HSTSs are all "exclusively androphilic" and that all other transsexuals must necessarily be autogynephilic. I can't find the open access article he linked on his twitter but I'm really sure I read this. The typology is very much intended as an iron rule (though I don't think he intended to say that schizophrenics can't ever think they're trans..)
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>>8771751
How else could someone be trans?
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>>8771724
>"failed men" who are not manly enough and transition to avoid being bullied
how is this not true for HSTS?
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>>8771724
My only doubts about the theory come from my own circumstances. Dating men makes me emotionally and sexually satisfied and I never needed to imagine myself as a woman or something to get off while having sex. I was curious about doing things with guys before I even started to have agp thoughts and for me agp thoughts were never about imagining myself as a woman either, I was always myself in my fantasies. Yet I'm undeniably agp and attracted to women visually although I wouldn't want to date them or do anything lewd with a girl.
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>>8771751
Then I'd have to see evidence it's 100%. His results show a strong but not perfect correlation, which to me is about as good as you could expect to get.
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>>8771760
>for me agp thoughts were never about imagining myself as a woman either, I was always myself in my fantasies. Yet I'm undeniably agp and attracted to women visually although I wouldn't want to date them or do anything lewd with a girl.
Explain this more?
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>>8771746
Because most MTFs (20% of androphiles and 70-80% of the rest) experience some form of arousal at the thought of themselves as women and/or at the thought of conforming to feminine stereotypes before they transition at some point. A few hear someone trying to explain why they're like this for the first time and cling to that explanation because that's all they have. Most hate themselves and this part of them and so are willing to believe it because it fits their suicidally low self image. Some non-MTFs believe it because it fits their view that transsexuals are just fetishists, and wield it as a weapon. Some are just bad at science.
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>>8771756
That part WAS talking about HSTSs. "Male-attracted". AGPs are typically successful men.
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>>8771766
>(20% of androphiles and 70-80% of the rest)
And why would that be, hmm?
The trouble with non-Blanchardian explanations is they have zero predictive power.
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>>8771782
1) Blanchard predicted these numbers would be 0% and 100%. Every single study ever conducted gave a distribution in that range though.
2) Because gynephiles are already attracted to women so it is easier for them to sexualize the image of themselves as women
3) Blanchard's own theories have actual zero predictive power when it comes to brain differences. Why the fuck do AGPs have feminized brains?
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>>8771794
No study is perfect, some AGP might pretend to be HSTS, some might transition unusually early, some bisexual men might be HSTS, etc.
> Because gynephiles are already attracted to women so it is easier for them to sexualize the image of themselves as women
Then why are they transitioning? You're getting cause and effect backward. The problem is that you then need to invent a new causal explanation. Blanchard is the only comprehensible explanation for why trannies are trannies.
> Why the fuck do AGPs have feminized brains?
Simply, they don't. HSTSs do.
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>>8771746
Mostly autism now. Before the autists though, it was used as an insult and also a convenient way for dysphoric guys from having to admit to themselves that they are probably trans. Something like, 'Oh I'm not trans, I just have a fetish for feminine things. Please disregard the hours, days, months, years, I obsess about how I dislike getting more masculine and binging/purging in shame my femininity, it's just a kink.'
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>>8771765
I never imagined myself as a woman but that's mostly because I always felt like it would be pathetic since I know I'm not one. So my fantasies involved me as myself and usually a guy I liked or in other cases faceless men I guess. Fantasies were usually masochism related or just bottoming stuff in general. However, I'd get aroused while crossdressing and other agp stuff. As much as I'm ashamed to admit it there were cases where I got aroused while taking my hrt pills.
I'm not interested in dating women mostly because I'm naturally very submissive and I feel I need a strong partner. Confidence attracts me a lot in guys but also other things, I just like how guys act and their cute dumb smiles and their smell.
Also, another reason I wouldn't want to be with a girl is because I'd just be envious of her looks and her 'role' in the relationship.
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>>8771794
>what is noise
No study is ever 0% and 100%.
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>>8771805
>Simply, they don't. HSTSs do.
This is factually false and if you cared about the truth you'd admit this. An intellectually honest opponent wouldn't deny obvious evidence to the contrary, some of which was posted in this very thread. You're the pro-AGP equivalent of Moser.
>No study is perfect, some AGP might pretend to be HSTS
And some HSTS might pretend to be AGP?? Handwaving evidence which does not fit your thesis as "misreporting" is unscientific in the extreme.
>Then why are they transitioning?
Gender dysphoria, caused by exposure to abnormal levels of hormones in key points during natal development.
>You're getting cause and effect backward.
No, that's you.
>The problem is that you then need to invent a new causal explanation. Blanchard is the only comprehensible explanation for why trannies are trannies.
Blanchard not only invented *two* complex causal explanations for which he has no evidence but he also invented ETLEs for which he, again, has no evidence. Of the various proposed theories Blanchard's is by far the one least resistant to occam's razor.
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>>8771829
Okay, but why are different studies repeatedly finding similar numbers even in large sample sizes? The only reason Blanchard denies that what he found was correlations is because it would hamstring his precious dichotomic etiologies.
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>>8771855
>use the same instruments
>wonder why the level of noise is the same
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>>8771839
>>8771839
>This is factually false and if you cared about the truth you'd admit this.
It's consistent with all the known facts. HSTSs have feminized brains along with gay men. AGPs do not.
> And some HSTS might pretend to be AGP
More like some AGPs will just not report their AGP. Particularly, psychiatry for a long time refused to even treat trannies if they didn't claim to be straight women.
> Gender dysphoria, caused by exposure to abnormal levels of hormones in key points during natal development.
Claim without evidence. Historically, gender dysphoria was never even a thing. There were trannies who wanted to transition. It's a """disease""" built around a medical treatment.
> Blanchard not only invented *two* complex causal explanations for which he has no evidence
The evidence is abundant and over many lines. It's not at all complex to say some effeminate gay men want to live as women, and some straight men have a fetish for being women. It uses the known facts and only those facts to explain the behavior and characteristics of trannies. It does not invent new entities like "innate hormone exposure" or "gender identity".
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>>8771819
The faceless men are classic AGP meta-attraction. It's still an AGP fantasy when the arousing element is being treated like a girl and taking the role of one, even if you're not actually picturing yourself as female. An AGP might imagine she's crossdressing, a very feminine boy, or being feminized. Some femboys are AGP.
Meta-attraction can get extremely close to direct attraction, perhaps indistinguishable.
>As much as I'm ashamed to admit it there were cases where I got aroused while taking my hrt pills.
That's incredible.
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>>8771867
Too bad you're wrong and the biggest western medical health organizations in the world disregard Blanchard's hypothesis.
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>>8771707
AGP is an orientation, not a fetish.
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>>8771880
That's the thing. I know I'm agp.
I know faceless men are agp classic which is why I mentioned it but I would also fantasise a lot about guys I know irl though.
But I'd like to think that agp is only a fraction of my attraction to men and not all of it. I find it difficult to believe that my love for my boyfriend would simply come out of me being agp.
I enjoy having sex with men and I don't compare myself to them as being 'the feminine one' while doing it. But Blanchard says that agp is an orientation and that the only possibility for me is that I've simply memed myself into liking guys.
>>
>>8771867
>It's consistent with all the known facts. HSTSs have feminized brains along with gay men. AGPs do not.
Evidence to the contrary was literally posted upthread.
>More like some AGPs will just not report their AGP. Particularly, psychiatry for a long time refused to even treat trannies if they didn't claim to be straight women.
Okay, so all results that are not like what the researcher wanted to find are misreports and all results that are are not misreports. Did I get it right?
>Claim without evidence.
>>8762023
>Historically, gender dysphoria was never even a thing.
Yeah that's why people in ancient Rome castrated themselves and took feminizing herbs..
>Effeminate gay men want to live as women
Wrong. The theory says effeminate men develop *gender dysphoria* as a result of being rejected as men. There is no proof that this is the cause of gender dysphoria.
> and some straight men have a fetish for being women
You don't understand Blanchard's theory at all if you think he conceptualizes AGP as a fetish. It is not a fetish. It is an erotic target location error, meaning that some straight men have some mysterious brain problem which causes them to look for a spouse in themselves and promptly fall in love with themselves. The arousal at the thought of being a woman, then, is no mere fetishism but the expression of love for a woman just as any man expresses redirected toward themselves. They seek to become women in order to be more attractive to themselves; to be with themselves because they can't be with the man they are.
>It uses the known facts and only those facts to explain the behavior and characteristics of trannies.
It tells two baseless narratives and ignores biological data.
>It does not invent new entities like "innate hormone exposure" or "gender identity".
Abnormal hormonal exposure is already known to cause other intersex conditions. In animals such as rates and monkeys it is also known to cause cross-sex behavior without external signs.
>>
>>8771867
Gender identity is just standard psychology, not even related to trans people.
>>
>>8771901
>But I'd like to think that agp is only a fraction of my attraction to men and not all of it.
Why?
>>
> Evidence to the contrary was literally posted upthread.
I pointed out there was no statistical significance to that claim, which was met with silence.
>>8771912
> Yeah that's why people in ancient Rome castrated themselves and took feminizing herbs..
lol
Eunuchs aren't trannies
> Wrong. The theory says effeminate men develop *gender dysphoria* as a result of being rejected as men. There is no proof that this is the cause of gender dysphoria.
It was developed long before dysphoria was even a concept. Dysphoria probably doesn't exist. It's just another way of verbalizing a desire to transition.
> The arousal at the thought of being a woman, then, is no mere fetishism but the expression of love for a woman just as any man expresses redirected toward themselves.
That's Anne Lawrence's theory
> Abnormal hormonal exposure is already known to cause other intersex conditions. In animals such as rates and monkeys it is also known to cause cross-sex behavior without external signs.
That's called being gay. No evidence there's anything special going on with trannies
> Gender identity is just standard psychology, not even related to trans people.
It only exists as an idea due to trannies, but it's not real.
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>>8771918
Because AGP feels self obsessed to me. I want to like my boyfriend for him, duh and not be essentially just a straight fetishist.
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>>8771930
You do like him for him whether you're AGP or normally androphilic. The only difference is whether you're able to like him because your orientation points to yourself or because it points to men.
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>>8771926
You're not trans and you're not a researcher on trans issues so why should anyone believe your bs?
>>
I think the issue is that there's several different narratives of AGP here, that aren't really full Blanchard, but have no better term.
The idea that there are two broad clusters of trans women, correlated by onset and orientation, is itself backed by mainstream science. But with no better name than "early onset" and "late onset" there's no way to talk about other factors belonging to these clusters and reason about an "AGP" who starts earlier than average or an "HSTS" who stays repressed longer.
Along with that there's also the idea that "AGP" may form a spectrum. The idea that some people who don't feel a need to transition can share a category with those who do is very easy to conflate with the idea that it is just a fetish, but I think that is a mistake.
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>>8771944
Why should being a tranny make you any more or less right? If anything it means your objectivity is doubtful.
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>>8771926
>I pointed out there was no statistical significance to that claim, which was met with silence.
It was met with a quote and the link to the fucking study
>Eunuchs aren't trannies
Eunuchs don't take feminizing supplements..
>It was developed long before dysphoria was even a concept
Blanchard himself wrote of gender dysphoria. You want to know how I know you haven't read anything he wrote?
>That's Anne Lawrence's theory
No it's fucking not. Anne Lawrence did not invent ETLEs.
>That's called being gay. No evidence there's anything special going on with trannies
Minus the gender dysphoria and its heavy correlation with being trans, regardless of orientation.
>It only exists as an idea due to trannies, but it's not real.
No it fucking doesn't you absolute fucking moron it was a core concept in child psychology development way before the focus was put on transsexuals. How can one person be this fucking stupid?
>inb4 I was just pretending :^)
congrats if you're trolling you got me well played
>>
>>8771949
How can you trust anyone to be objective regarding gender identity, something everyone has and deals with weather they're aware of it or not.
Gender and sexuality is close to all of us in some way or another.
>>
The issue of "pseudobi" or "meta-attraction" is another thing. While it's harmful to talk about it in ways that suggest one's relationships are not legitimate, and leads to situations like the OP pic, that doesn't change the fact that many people (particularly, but not exclusively, pre-transition or non-transitioning) do experience things like the faceless man fantasy, and need to be able to talk about those things. Saying there's nothing real about that invalidates many people's experiences.
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>>8771946
>But with no better name than "early onset" and "late onset" there's no way to talk about other factors belonging to these clusters and reason about an "AGP" who starts earlier than average or an "HSTS" who stays repressed longer.
I don't think that follows. You can speak in these terms and acknowledge AGP is a very prevalent fetish.
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>>8771954
> It was met with a quote and the link to the fucking study
Which didn't show any statistical significance to that claim. I asked for the value: didn't get it.
> Eunuchs don't take feminizing supplements..
I'd need to see evidence, but there is generally no cross cultural evidence for trannies being a thing. Romans had eunuchs, they did not claim to actually be women.
> Minus the gender dysphoria and its heavy correlation with being trans, regardless of orientation.
Because only some effeminate gay men decide they are trannies. Wanting to be a tranny is what we're calling dysphoria.
> No it fucking doesn't you absolute fucking moron it was a core concept in child psychology development
Money came up with the idea first, but he tried to make a kid into a tranny with it.
>>
>>8771966
My point is that often when people talk about it they're not talking about the fetish at all, but the whole set of shared experiences - which often, but not always, includes the fetish, but is not limited to it.
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>>8771962
OP here. Meta-attraction is definitely real, but to say that if you're AGP you can only possibly experience this sort of attraction to men is fucked up beyond belief.
>>
Ps >>8771974
The "p" in agp is really unfortunate because it makes it difficult to discuss it acknowledge the phenomenon beyond the fetish.
>>
>>8771974
Why not talk in terms of the late vs early onset clusters, then? Confusing terminology if you're a "late" onseter who started early and vice versa? I guess I can see that, but associating yourself with Blanchard's typology in specific is if anything more harmful. I guess it would be useful to have new names for these clusters free from both issues.
>>
>>8771946
I think the problem with early and late onset is that there wasn't much opportunity for people in previous decades to express gender dysphoria and get treatment.
It'll be interesting to see how the next generations deal with gender dysphoria.
My bet is that there will be far fewer older transitioners, and less people will fetishize cross gender behavior, because they can express it in their every day life and not behind closed doors.
>>8771962
I think it's shame based. Once people realize that being trans is just part of the umbrella of human gender identity, people will be able to express their attractions without shame.
>>
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>>8771982
Autogynesexual. Now it sounds like a Tumblrism!
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>>8771977
Evidence we can experience the other sort of attraction?
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>>8772066
You can get 0.05 from any fishing trip. So given there are only 5 homosexuals here, how do you know they aren't just seeing in MtFs whatever autogynephilia looks like in the brain? Isn't that the simplest explanation?
>>
>>8772066
Second, look at FC versus MC, against MtF versus MC. If MtF truly have "feminized brains" those figures should look pretty similar. At least there shouldn't be regions of green that flip to red.
If part of the gynephilic MtF brain has moved in the "feminine direction" versus MC, then you'd expect the regions that are red or green in the FC-versus-MC to either stay their original color or be grey in the MtF-versus-MC.
In fact we don't see that. Between the bottom right and bottom left sets of brain slices, virtually all those slices have more regions that have flipped from red to green than stay red or stay green. Just eyeballing, there is no way they can claim that's a feminized brain. It looks like there's something else going on.
Now the FtMs are different. The FtM versus FC do look like the INVERSE of MC versus FC. If you flipped the FC-vs-FtM from red to green it would look like the FC-versus-MC. So that supports the idea FtMs are really masculinized, but something else is going on with MtFs.
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>>8771201
I feel like this AGP shit is 90% /pol/tard baiting and 10% people who've fallen for it just because it's talked about as if it's legit so much
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>>8772088
It's not open-access so I can't quote directly from it but another paper supposedly had similar results.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20562024
beyond that there are also many other areas in which transsexuals fall between the sexes. For example:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3665407/
>To investigate potential neuroanatomical variations associated with transsexualism, we compared the regional thickness of the cerebral cortex between 24 MTF transsexuals who had not yet been treated with cross-sex hormones and 24 age-matched control males.
>6 transsexual participants reported being sexually attracted to men and 18 reported being sexually attracted to women.
>When comparing the 24 MTF transsexuals and the 24 age-matched control men, we revealed thicker cortices in MTF transsexuals in a number of regions across the lateral and medial cortical surfaces, while there was no region where control men showed an increased cortical thickness compared to MTF transsexuals.
>This is the first study investigating cortical thickness as a possible underlying substrate associated with MTF transsexualism. Thus, comparable data do not exist. However, the thicker cortices in MTF transsexuals compared to control men (observed here) resemble the direction of previously reported gender-typical pattern among non-transsexuals, such as thicker cortices in women than in men
>We observed thicker cortices in 24 MTF transsexuals compared to 24 age-matched control men in a number of regions across the lateral and medial cortical surfaces. In order to precisely interpret these findings with respect to their functional significance further research addressing the relationship between cerebral micro- and macro- structures as well as brain function is clearly necessary. Nevertheless, the current study provides evidence that brain anatomy is associated with gender identity, where measures in MTF transsexuals appear to be shifted away from gender-congruent men.
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>>8772147
Bullshit. It is a fetish that can get out of hand
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>>8772158
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3665407/
Worthless paper, doesn't control for sexual orientation. We already know homosexuals have feminized brains!
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>>8772120
I think what a lot of people miss is that the claim isn't and never was that MTFs have female brains, but that their brains are shifted toward being like those of women on the population level, landing them between men and women. Perhaps the shift is not evenly distributed i.e. some regions only shifted at key levels of hormonal exposure. Personally I wouldn't just eyeball it.
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>>8772162
But what if for me it's the only way I can lead a satisfying life?
I could never be happy being with a woman while I'm happy having a bf and also right now I feel better about my looks than ever before in my life. It feels like a nice change not to hate what you look like for once.
>>
>>8772166
oh my god can you please for once read what I quote
>6 transsexual participants reported being sexually attracted to men and 18 reported being sexually attracted to women.
>>
>>8772178
It would be more accurate to say their brains are shifted away from men in some other direction than being feminized. There isn't any reason why you have to interpret this result as "feminized brain". It's just... different.
The FtMs look like a different story.
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>>8772185
>>6 transsexual participants reported being sexually attracted to men and 18 reported being sexually attracted to women.
So, that could be accounted for by homosexuals skewing the results. There's no need to invoke anything other than homosexuality here.
Cortical thickness could also change for other reasons than feminization.
>>
>>8772178
This suggests that AGP or whatever you want to call it is the best candidate for an actual 'third gender', vs all the discourse that objects to there being only two genders but never defines another one.
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>>8772194
You're probably going to use this for evil but for the sake of intellectual honesty I'll say that there is one region in which MTFs are weird and even "more male" then men but they are clearly shifted toward being "more female" in two others.
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>>8772180
Your life. For me is hell. I'm mostly into women but I can't get off without those fantasies. I like how I look (low effort though) ^and I have never wanted to be anything other than a man. But those shit is stoping me from normal love life snd eventualy becoming husband and fsther
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>>8772227
You aren't reading that correctly. It says in the caption there isn't a significant difference between MtF and male controls.
These figures show there are MANY regions where MtFs are "more male than men". That's everywhere that is green in the MtF-vs-MC, but is red int the FC-vs-MC.
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>>8772205
>Cortical thickness could also change for other reasons than feminization.
Yes, but we again and again spot these signs of feminization in different ways and regions. It paints a picture, even if each individual piece of the puzzle isn't enough to say much.
>So, that could be accounted for by homosexuals skewing the results. There's no need to invoke anything other than homosexuality here.
In the white matter tract study you suggested that the difference was just what differentiates autogynephiles from normal men and here you're arguing it's just the homosexuals shifting the results.. come on now. First thing first I think the researchers would be savvy enough to note something like this.
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>>8772240
>You aren't reading that correctly. It says in the caption there isn't a significant difference between MtF and male controls.
You misunderstood. The last line refers to the CST in specific, i.e. the bottom row. It even notes that significant differences were found in the top and middle rows.
>>
>>8772277
> . It even notes that significant differences were found in the top and middle rows.
That's talking about their ANCOVA model in general, not a specific MtF versus MC difference. They've found at least once difference.
This is just a really underpowered study that doesn't control for orientation and doesn't make the comparisons we'd be interested in - namely, whether AGPs and HSTS are the same thing, whether they're more similar to cross dressers or gay men respectively, and whether they're both really legitimately feminized.
>>
>be me
>reading this
>kthxbye lgbt
>>
>>8772315
explain thyself
>>
>>8771880
>meta-attraction
this idea is retarded and so are you
"Faceless men" meaning this is just idiotic. It's perfectly normal to use a blank template in your imagination. Are straight men """meta attracted""" because they might imagine a faceless woman in considering what dating life might be like? How about cis women who imagine faceless men in their fantasies, are they just """meta attracted"""?
You've fallen for a meme.
>>
>>8772361
Source on cis men and cis women having faceless partner sex fantasies.
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>>8772423
Do you mean literally faceless or faceless in that they're just a blank slate with features the person likes and isn't directly any real person?
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>>8772486
In the AGP sense.
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>>8772497
I don't get what you mean. Elaborate.
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>>8772515
Faceless the way AGP people describe their fantasies.
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>>8771591
>stalkers
>s
???
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>>8771207
> Kafka trap
> the accusation is the proof.
Welcome to /lgbt/ where the logical fallacies never end!
>>
>>8772289
Anon please..
>The transition MC–MtF–FtM–FC in significantly increasing MD values becomes apparent in the body of corpus callosum (top row) and the right superior frontal blade (middle row; p < 0.05, FWE corrected).
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>>8771210
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>>8774012
>The transition MC–MtF–FtM–FC
Now separate HSTS and A*P.
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>>8774043
You made a show of noting how androphiles are a small minority in this group and now you're arguing the group measures are different entirely because of them in all of these different studies?
>>
>>8774073
Do you want date that's tainted or data that's not? That's the question it comes down to and it looks like you're fine with shoddy figures.
>>
>>8774104
I think that it is reasonable to think that the data might be skewed and that more research is required, but you're using this opportunity to instead claim that what we've found is meaningless and that we should assume that androphiles account for the difference. If you want to bat for increased rigor, okay, but that requires you to admit that it could easily go either way and that for now we don't have unambiguous evidence that gynephiles *don't* have feminized white matter tracts as well. It's not a reasonable null hypothesis at this point.
>>
>>8771337
>Link? Nobody has a gender identity.
Everyone has a gender identity, what the fuck are you talking about? Wtf do you think being trans or cis IS?
We know that injuries to different parts of the brain can cause various changes to sexuality and (more rarely) gender identity. I believe it's damage to the temporal lobe that can cause new fetishes to appear, and damage to the limbic system that can (in rare cases) even completely flip someone's sexual orientation. Similar injuries have also been known in a handful of cases to change someone's gender identity. We're not necessarily talking an outright "flip" - sometimes it makes people feel like they don't HAVE a gender. One study I read years ago discovered those people to start "hyper-performing" their gender role because their internal sense of gender had disappeared and they were trying to get it back.
>They don't
They do. Usually in our gen.
>It's obvious that the cross-dresser to transbian life path is sexually driven.
No, and you don't have any arguments:
>It doesn't. HRT reduces the sex drive and makes the paraphilia less intense.
That's the most common explanation, but it doesn't explain the "paraphilia" disappearing in some trans women when they begin even socially transitioning and haven't started HRT yet.
>AGPs are not typical gender-confused kids.
There's no such thing as a "typical" gender-atypical kid. Blanchard published case studies from the beginning of "AGP" trans women who remembered having cross-sex feelings half a decade or more before their first sexual arousal.
>They aren't.
Blanchard's own data found that some are.
>Because it's a useful way to understand your life if you have AGP.
Funny how literally no one finds it anything but harmful outside of the fringe on this board.
>>8771556
AGP, not AAP.
Being AAP exists, but not commonly. But a LOT of people in our culture can/do project into the idea of being an attractive woman, regardless of their own gender/sexual orientation.
>>
>>8771867
>Historically, gender dysphoria was never even a thing.
What the fuck? Of course it was. There are cases from every era of human history of people living cross-sex their whole lives.
One of the earliest "modern" cases I recall reading about was from Freud's time (or slightly later, maybe?). It was an FtM who came from a rich-as-fuck family who paid for him to see a Freudian-trained doctor for years on end to try to fix his "I feel male inside" thoughts. When that didn't work, the doc did something radical for the time and told the guy, "I don't think it would hurt anyone if you actually tried to live as a male." The dude socially transitioned (I think he actually had to cut off his family and move, iirc) and ultimately married a woman.
I read that in a book covering early trans health care in America in my teens, and have been trying to find that book again ever since. The story was really quite incredible.
>>
>>8774043
>>8774104
>To investigate whether the three sex steroid hormones (E2, T, and P4) or sexual orientation explained group differences, the named variables were added as covariates of no interest within separate ANCOVA analyses. Finally, multiple regression analyses were performed to determine the effects of hormones and sexual orientation on diffusivity maps independent of group membership, i.e., with group in addition to TIV as factor of no interest. Separate models were calculated for each of the independent variables (E2, T, P4, and sexual orientation).
>Associations between TBSS measures and sexual orientation
>Here, we investigated whether sexual orientation associates with diffusivity measures. No effects on our main findings were observed when sexual orientation was regressed out in the ANCOVA design. Moreover, there was no significant effect of sexual orientation on diffusivity parameters in the regression analysis including all subjects and using group as factor of no interest.
I'll be honest here: I don't 100% get what they did but it sounds like they DID account for orientation by checking whether it affects diffusivity measures.
>>
>>8774373
Yeah, that's what it means. "Multiple regression analysis" is basically a complex statistical analysis that's performed when you're investigating the relationship between X and two or more variables that could be affecting X.
>>
>>
http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm
Is this approach comparable to htts and agp?
>>
>>8774463
Note how it does not speculate that AGP makes people trans..
>>
There is still no objective evidence of anything relating to transgenderism.
Blanchardfags (hilariously enough what people like to call me, "blanchardfag") and bitterhons are equally wrong here.
The truth is, we have no damn clue of what cause of AGP/Trans/Dysphoria. But we have an idea of what will help.
#1. STOP FAPPING, START LIVING!
#2. Transition has no long-term proven benefits
#3. Don't trust bitterhons!
#4 Correlation=causation bullshit studies don't count as "evidence".
#5 Neither does low quality "evidence.
It's that simple.
>>
>>8774484
Good point. Article discarded.
>>
>>8774731
I'm not saying you should discard it. Just note what it's actually saying.
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>>8774739
Alright, I'll take it with a pinch of salt.
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>>8771746
It's actually very appealing to actual A*Ps for a lot of reasons
For one it removes the fetish or trans dichotomy by making it a spectrum of various fetish intensities - this is a blessing to anyone who questioned this or used to write off their GD as a fetish - you don't just go from "i just have a fetish for having a vag" to "i'm a woman" overnight - if you're accepting yourself as trans this might seem degrading but for a person that already sees themselves as a fetishist the whole theory actually elevates their status (especially with /tttt/ interpretation of blanchardianism where AGP is more of a sexual orientation than a kink)
>>
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>>8774636
>>
SCIENCE IS WRONG
PRAISE OCCULT HSTSISM
>>
>>8774841
>It's actually very appealing to actual A*Ps for a lot of reasons
Go outside of this hellhole and you'll see trans people in general really really hate Blanchard.
>>
>>8774862
Only my niche extremist 4chan memes are important, legitimate medical science or people's real experiences are all part of a massive conspiracy to keep me down.
>>
>>
>>8774841
Interesting, so anyone already considering themselves trans feels delegitimized by it but anyone who considered themselves a fetishist before feels legitimized by it.
>>
>>8774880
t. reptilian
>>
>>8774881
It help repressing.
>>
>>8774880
I might be a dip but remember that's because he who fights monsters etc etc but yeah I don't disagree that some people who thought of themselves as the lowest of the low beforehand and suddenly found out their condition has a name and someone wrote about it and it's not their fault kind of tend to imprint on the typology because it's the first thing they encountered that spoke of their experience.
>>8774881
Not just as fetishists but as people with strange desires which no one seems to have any terms or explanations for
>>
>>
>>8774945
It help repressing because realising that it is erotic target error, keep me remainded that I'm straight male with mental condition and nothing more. It is much easier to accept that I'm man with illness and suffer a bit from it (still much less than many) than being a tranny.
>>
>>8772522
I don't know what that means. Do you not understand what "elaborate" is?
>>
>>8774910
>the first thing they encountered
I don't know, personally I identified as a regular trans before and it caused me a lot of distress
I guess if you describe "spoke of their experience" as something you can fully identify with it would be right though, mainstream narratives don't really go in depth enough on stuff even if they mention AGP arousal
I don't really believe blanchard theory though but the actual descriptions of how stuff happens are better in blanchardian works/stories
>>8774997
>>8772486
Blank state without features, you imagine yourself being fucked by a man as opposed to having sex *with* a man, you just don't put any effort into imagining the guy cause he's not actually important to the fantasy, he's only there to put his dick in you and make you feel dominated or feminine
>>8772423
Look for descriptions of fantasies like rape/gangbang/public use, most people with these are cis
Generally BDSM is often about feeling a certain way yourself - and it's also somewhat common among cis women unlike "real" fetishes - honestly I don't think meta fantasies are an AGP thing as much as they are a sub thing
>>
>>8775275
How can you identify with something you don't believe in?
>>
>>8775300
It's possible to believe that things happen without believing the explanation of why they happened
>>
>>8775307
Mind elaborating on what you believe happens?
>>
AGP/HSTS is literally psuedointellectual horoscopes for trannies, it's ridiculous that people on this board parrot it as fact, that garbage belongs on /x/.
>>
>>8777036
Now now horoscopes aren't nearly as harmful.
>>
>>8775275
>and it caused me a lot of distress
how?
>>
>>8772147
I think it's way more than 10%.
>>
>>8775275
>honestly I don't think meta fantasies are an AGP thing as much as they are a sub thing
Huh. And since most AGPs are subs, this would explain any correlation.
>>
>>8771972
Google the gali and get back me to there fellow romeaboo
>>
>>8771201
>memes hurt people
If you're weak enough to get hurt by words you don't deserve to consume resources.
>>
>>8780755
>Misinformation can't harm people
ok
>>
>>8780778
Things that can hurt you
- a punch to the face
Things that can't
- hey your a faggot/tranny
Words =/= violence
>>
>>8780867
>I don't even understand what misinformation is
ok
>>
>>8771201
>implying that telling this to people won't just make them want to say this shit more
>>
>>8775275
>>8771819
Tfw this is similar to how I feel though I haven't live long enough to experience what you experienced in reality...
but at the same time one of my attitude/reason for blank face is because I feel like it would be pure disrespect if I ever put anyone's face in it, as I was never in a relationship and thinks anything sexual is disgusting when im clear headed....
The discussions regarding to your experience interest me lol
>>
>>8780778
Telling people men are women is deliberate misinformation.
>>
>>8782774
Read the thread.
Thread posts: 201
Thread images: 21
Thread images: 21