Why are people who are sjw and say there are more than 2 genders

Why make a campaign when you can co-opt one
See L, B, and T

i'm sorry you're spooked my property
better work on that

>>8764192
because these people literally changed the definition of what trans is and now the medical condition is treated like some post modernist joke to society when in reality has plenty of scientific evidence that support it as an actual condition akin to intersex.

>>8767393
>is treated like some post modernist joke to society
[citation needed]

> What happened to transitioning because they were women born with boy bodies and men transitioning because they have girl bodies.

This description is completely inaccurate for most of this board. A more accurate description would be something along the lines of "transitioning to be a woman because women are cute and sexy and Good".

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>>8763713
because thanks to the progressive views of murican medical community the autists who cant grasp the concept of gender are considered trans now

this from the official DSM-5 (diagnostic manual)

>>8767451
the law in canada that forces you to use the preferred gender of xir or whatever other fake gender they make up to deface transsexualism.

>>8767454
then you arn't trans... I mean ffs the people who transition for legitimate reasons should be treated with respect and not this fucking mess...

>>8767454
>most of this board
most of this board could be pol trolls, what does it have to do with the subject
>transitioning to be a woman because women are cute and sexy and Good
now you are pretending to be retarded, oh damn you got me baited

>>8767473
But transitioning because of A*P (autogynephilia/autoandrophilia - the paraphilic desire to be the opposite sex) is legitimate. It's the most common reason for transitioning in the West. A*P can lead to intense gender dysphoria.

People are trans if and only if they transition. That's the only viewpoint that makes sense.

>>8767454
>completely inaccurate for most of this board
>for most of this board
Evidence HSTSes transition because MIGI?

>>8767485
>most of this board could be pol trolls, what does it have to do with the subject
It's not just this board. Most trans people in the West transition for such reasons. In fact, this is probably also the case for the nonbinary people you're complaining about.

>now you are pretending to be retarded, oh damn you got me baited
No, what I'm writing about is a controversial understanding of transness known as Blanchard's transsexualism typology.

>>8767502
>paraphilic desire to be the opposite sex
Not even a thing.
>People are trans if and only if they transition
And where have you got these ridiculous views?

>>8767507
HSTSs don't transition because of Magical Innate Gender Identity. However, the "women born with boy bodies" is less obviously wrong for HSTSs, so it'd be unfair to call it completely inaccurate (unlike for AGPs).

>>8767473
Why can't we all respect everybody why ever they transition?

>>8767526
you're not trans until you transition.
you're just a cross-dresser up to that point.

>>8767529
You replied to
>transitioning because they were women born with boy bodies
>transitioning because
with saying it's inaccurate for AGPs.

It *is* completely inaccurate for HSTSes too.

>>8767526
>Not even a thing.
It totally is. I just wrote a post about it on my blog, surveyanon.wordpress.com.

>And where have you got these ridiculous views?
Literally the point of being trans is that you transition. It's not an unreasonable view.

>>8767548

Next you'll be saying the point of being gay is sucking dick!

>>8767544
HSTSs transition because of their womanlike traits. If they weren't feminine, they wouldn't transition. "Women born with boy bodies" can be seen as an odd metaphor for this.

>>8763713
A large part of it seems to have come from a semantic conflict by which behaviours that were previously considered "gender non-conforming"-but-cis have been re-classified in recent times as belonging under a broader definition of the world transgender; the conflict being that one group of people (the younger generation of tumblrite progressives) decided that this new, broader definition is now the case, while the rest of the trans community (i.e. us) and the establishment at large never agreed to any such linguistic re-jigging.

By agreeing amongst themselves that this is now what "trans" means, without the broader consensus of society (that's not how language change works you tumblr dimwits!), they've created a situation by which both sides think their identities and behaviours are under attack from the other side (us feeling that the tumblrites are eroding the medical meaning of the word transgender etc. / them feeling their self-expression is being policed), when actually it's just that their definitions of the words they're using don't match.

>>8767561
Femininity is a necessary but not sufficient condition for HSTS transition.

HSTSes don't transition "because of" their womanlike traits.

>"Women born with boy bodies" can be seen as an odd metaphor for this.
You're removing the context from the quote.

>>8767502
no, any fuck can easily get hormones now, the only way to know if someone is trans is being recognized by the medical community. I know gatekeeping sounds bad but with all these post modern fucks showing up and taking advantage of the medical condition this is the only way to defend the actual condition now. Call me a susans hon or whatever even though i started HRT at a young age but this is seriously the only way to maintain legitimacy in this post modern fucked up world we live in. Don't let that canadian law affect american please.

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>>8767557
I would argue that sucking dick is a side effect of being gay.
Let's call it a perquisite.

Being faaabulous is the point of being gay.

>>8767530
Trans trenders, queers, sjws don't respect the actual condition you idiot. They use the condition as a means to push their bullshit ideologies and in turn say the medical condition is an ideology because of their extreme post modern feelz

>>8767531
That is idiotic redefining coming from some autist with ridiculous views. Transgender never meant posttransition-only. It always mean someone with gender identity disorder which got renamed into more nicely sounding gender dysphoria. That's a standard officailly accepted definition, not your personal fantasy.
How do you even define "transition", SRS and legal change?


>>8767548
A thing In your mind. Either you are really bad at expressing your thoughts and don't mean exactly what you write or really delusional.

>>8767548
>the point of being trans is that you transition
And the point of being ill is that you get cured? So until you are done with treatment you shouldn't be called as having the appropriate condition?
There is some really bizarre stuff boiling in your skull. Wow.

>>8767573
>behaviours that were previously considered "gender non-conforming"-but-cis have been re-classified in recent times as belonging under a broader definition of the world transgender

this new definition being, I should clarify, the "trans umbrella"- placing both medically-transitioning 'transsexuals' such as ourselves, and gender-non-conforming people without gender dysphoria who we would consider to be cis, under the same broader term of "transgender"

under this new definition of the word 'transgender' the only term left free to describe us more standard trans folks is 'transsexual' i.e. changing elements of physical sex, but most of us dislike the connotations of ugly middle-aged crossdressers etc. that word has become associated with colloquially in the past and so stick with 'transgender'- leading to the perceived notion that tumblrites are trying to say that pink-beardy-tutu tumblr types and us binary folks with gender dysphoria are one in the same, when actually they're saying both sorts of people are part of a range of different sorts of people they believe belong under the same umbrella term. the tumblrites' mistake was choosing a word (transgender) already in use by a community (us) to describe that broader umbrella. they've created an accidental synecdoche without any of the sides involved properly understanding that's what it is.

>>8767594
Just let them do whatever transition they choose while we do the transition we do.

>>8767518
blanchard has been wrong ever since his bs and the medical community recognizes it. The only reason blanchard keeps showing up is because /lgbt/ used to have a lot of actual transexuals on here before pol and whoever else fucking invaded /lgbt/ with a swath of memes to confuse everyone. Also there was a group of fem boy crossdressers who were repressed trannies and still repress who pushed the agp meme as well. And now people think its a real thing. So you have this meme coupled with the post modern lefties. Perfect mix to say transsexualism is fake when it's other parties fucking trans people over.

>>8767586

What if some people just declare themselves trans without doing anything and go around trolling?

Seems that is a risk if trans continue to piss others off.

>>8767615
What motivation would people have to do that?

>>8767607
When canada made that law this mindset for me has vanished and i advise you to do the same. Because of them the medical condition will never be accepted in society if ever now. Before these people the condition was heading towards being recognized as an intersex condition. Now it's a post modern joke that normies don't understand or respect because they associate it with a political agenda.

>>8767614
>and the medical community recognizes it.
[citation needed]

>>8767626

Wanting to discredit transgenders. God knows enough people want to do that right now.

>>8767628
What has the Canadian law done to harm our recognition?

>>8767641
it forces people to use pronouns that don't exist in the english language and if you don't abide by it you get fined. This makes people think this is an authoritarian agenda instead of a medical condition and the people who passed this law are queer sjw trans trenders who took advantage of what the medical condition is and changed the entire definition of the word without anyone noticing because actual transsexuals are .3 percent of the population. So now everytime I come out to someone people think I'm associated with these people and think I chose to be this way when I was born this way and I transitioned to fix my body the best I can. Now I'm a joke in peoples eyes.

>>8767574
There's likely some more complexity to it, but HSTSs actually have the femininity that the "women born with boy bodies" explanation is getting at. It's wrong, but not completely and totally wrong.

>>8767601
>A thing In your mind. Either you are really bad at expressing your thoughts and don't mean exactly what you write or really delusional.
The fact is that you can literally ask people whether they have A*P, and this will be pretty accurate for predicting how attached they are to their gender.

>And the point of being ill is that you get cured? So until you are done with treatment you shouldn't be called as having the appropriate condition?
>There is some really bizarre stuff boiling in your skull. Wow.
We already have a word for the condition(s) that tend to motivate transition. Gender dysphoria.

>>8767658
[citation needed]

from the bill, please, not from Peterson.

>>8767660
It is completely and totally wrong because it says trans people/HSTSes transition because of MIGI, which is what the "women born with boy bodies" explanation is.

You're saying MIGI is true in that the "innate" part is true. HSTS and A*P are both "innate" but MIGI is still completely and totally wrong, for both etiologies.

>>8767466
>Codify into law to be respectful of trans people
>We're treated as a joke

>>8767700
the law just adds gender identity/expression to protected classes, meaning that if you commit a crime against someone due to their gender identity/expression, it's now classified as a hate crime.

It in no way forces respect or anything like that, that's all fear mongering.

>>8767658
You poor thing!

>>8767705

Yeah, no. Refusing to call someone a made up or false pronoun could definitely get you in trouble.

>>8763713
>What happened to transitioning because they were women born with boy bodies and men transitioning because they have girl bodies.
That's a drastic oversimplification for people who don't understand how dysphoria works. Straight cis people need to calm down.

>>8767715
[citation needed]

>>8767730
/pol/ told me

>>8767746
fairly sure you aren't >>8767715 but yeah, that's pretty much what it comes down to

It all seems to lead back to Jordan Peterson, who simply doesn't actually have any ground to stand on. The bill in question, c16, didn't actually add any new laws or anything, it was a simple reclassification. It only made such a big fuss because people aren't fond of transsexuals.

There are three genders. Men (incl. all ftm), women (incl. hsts), and agp.

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>>8767819
this is blatantly false. You didn't even include gender or felmale

>>8767857
>Ho Chi Minh City
DO NOT MISGENDER ME! I identify as Saigon and NOT ANY OTHER NAME!

>>8767857
>using insecure web forms as a reference

as a web developer, this triggers me!

>>8767862
Ugh, stupid SJW. Saigon isn't a real gender.

You're either F or M or Male or Female or Famale or Felmale or High School visit on March 17 or Gender or International High School Visit at Ho Chi Minh City at March 19. If you're confused, just check inside your pants.

>>8767869
>If you're confused, just check inside your pants.
Just did and guess what I found? International High School Visit at Saigon at March 19, you bigot.

>>8767870
Then you're intersex. You make up like 1% of the population, don't expect us to cater to you.

>>8767870
Clearly Ho Chi Minh and Saigon are the pair of pronouns just like he/him or she/her.

>>8767692
You're using MIGI wrong. If you want to be legible, write your criticism without that word.

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>>8767658
Leaf /Pol/ack here, Fucking this, I had no problem with transfolk but since Bill c16 I had a strong hatred for any trans person that thinks Bill c16 is good thing.

Like what were they thinking, making Bills like m-103 and c-16 will decrease hate crimes but in reality it only increases it bc you r telling people you can't talk about x unless you are on our side of our aganda.

JUST Mmmmmm mm FUCKING hate people who push this shit......

:((((((

>>8764199
Hey dont drag my beloved stirner into this, sex has a very real biological basis. Youre free to express yourself how you like but ultimately theres only around 4-5 variations with 2 being predominant

Cis man
Cis woman
Transfeminine (takes estrogen)
Transmasculine (takes testosterone)
Intersex (indeterminate)

The rest is just style and presentation really.

>>8769580
Say what MIGI used right is and say why HSTSes transition/feel dysphoria please.

>>8769854
I would hope as a leaf you would actually have fucking read the bill and realize it doesn't do anything of the sort

Here's what you can't do in regards to speech- you can't advocate genocide of the group. Surprise surprise, this was already part of the law

The bill did pretty much nothing but make things explicit, where they were just implied (and still followed in regards to the law) before.

/pol/ has been lying to you about what the bill does. Peterson is misinformed about what the bill does.

>>8770949
but then why should we trust you either?

>>8770994
You shouldn't

What you should do is read the bill. It's not long- it's a simple modification of adding gender identity/expression to the list of protected classes (where things like religion, ethnicity, nationality, sexuality, or disability already are).

Further read the definitions for phrases like "inciting hatres"- they're actually fairly specific and well thought out

>>8770949
The bill doesn't say anything at all about being required to use someone's preferred pronouns?

Of course, it doesn't *say* that includes xir, but it doesn't *not* say it either, and no one defending it is willing to actually stand up and say it is not intended to and should not be used to force people to use made up words, they just say "haha you said 'they', was that so hard, gotcha"

>>8771003
Correct, it doesn't even go into that. Laws don't typically state unrelated aspects.

By moving it to a protected class, what they're doing is mostly just reclassifying certain existing crimes as hate crimes. So like if you stabbed someone because they're trans, it would be counted as a hate crime- iirc, these have a higher sentence duration.

There's nothing at all to suggest it forces any sort of pronoun usage. That's simple fearmongering.

>>8771018
But why should someone be given a longer sentence for the motive of their crime? The crime is the action, not whether it was a protected class, and that's what the sentence should be for.

>>8770997
And since the law already prohibits "differentiating adversely" on a prohibited ground, adding enbys as a protected class automatically entails the pronoun thing, without the law having to actually mention it explicitly.

The CBA said it "will constrain unwanted, persistent behaviour (physical or verbal) that offends or humiliates individuals on the basis of their gender identity or expression." That's pronouns, and if enbys count, it's xirs.

>>8771024
The reasoning behind it is that if something is a hate crime, the person is more likely to commit the crime again, because the entire target group has attracted the criminal's ire.

And it's reasonable to disagree with the notion of hate crimes in general, but that's a far cry from the bill enforcing pronouns.

>>8771029
Regarding adverse differentiation
It's a subset of a larger aspect of the Canadian Human Rights Act. The relevant sections are

"Denial of good, service, facility or accommodation"
"Denial of commercial premises or residential accommodation"
"Employment"

Note that none of these have to do with language or simple othering, it's a fairly clearly defined form of discrimination

>>8770927
> Say what MIGI used right is
MIGI criticizes things like "there is a kind of femininity which causes dysphoria but can be 100% hidden your entire life" or "everyone who is dysphoric should transition". I'm not sure what the original definition of MIGI is, but I'd probably emphasize how it focuses on magical/atomic gender drives which have been invented purely for describing trans people, rather than focusing on more reductionist theories which use psychological phenomena that we observe elsewhere.

So "HSTSs have female brains, and female brains have an atomic drive to be women" is MIGI, but "HSTSs are so incredibly feminine that it's just easier if they transition" isn't.

> say why HSTSes transition/feel dysphoria please
I'm unsure about the details. I think there's probably a lot of factors.

My preferred guess is that people tend to infer various personality traits from people's presentation, sex characteristics and stated identity, and that for HSTSs this inference is reliably wrong if they don't transition or do transition-adj things (like presenting in an androgynous way).

That the inference is wrong causes a lot of problems in various ways (social friction, prejudice, anger from others for violating norms, etc.), some of which lead to feelings of dysphoria and others which just lead to "rational" incentives to transition.

But this is just one guess out of many.

From the CBA response to C16

"Recently, the debate has turned to whether the amendments will force individuals to embrace concepts, even use pronouns, which they find objectionable. This is a misunderstanding of human rights and hate crimes legislation"

http://www.cba.org/CMSPages/GetFile.aspx?guid=be34d5a4-8850-40a0-beea-432eeb762d7f

They specifically addressed the pronoun thing because it got so big.

>>8771061
Sorry, this was addressed to >>8771035

>>8771061
>http://www.cba.org/CMSPages/GetFile.aspx?guid=be34d5a4-8850-40a0-beea-432eeb762d7f

https://litigationguy.wordpress.com/2016/12/24/bill-c-16-whats-the-big-deal/

The OHRC has produced a policy on gender identity and expression and what constitutes harassment and discrimination, including “refusing to refer to a person by their self-identified name and proper personal pronoun”.

What this means is that if you encounter a person in a sphere of human activity covered by the Code, and you address that person by a pronoun that is not the chosen/personal/or preferred pronoun of that person, that your action can constitute discrimination.

It is the OHRC policy requirement that persons must use the pronouns required by the portion of transgendered individuals making that demand that constitutes compelled speech.

Persons not wishing to use those pronouns (or any pronouns for that matter), or not able to use those pronouns as offending their deeply held beliefs, or their faith and religion, are afforded no ability to abstain. In short, the OHRC requires that you use the words required by the proponents of Bill C-16.

> Bill C-16 will mandate the use of certain language enforceable by the government;
> The mandated language may not be consistent with the opinions and beliefs of all persons in Canadian society;
> It is not clear that one can publicly disavow the mandated language; and,
> With the passing of Bill C-16, a failure to use the mandated language can result in the power of the state being brought to bear on you, resulting in punishments up to and including imprisonment.
> Given that the Supreme Court of Canada has found compelled speech to be a “penalty that is totalitarian”, it might be appropriate to examine Bill C-16 in greater detail to ensure that it remains consistent with Canadian constitutional principles and Canadian traditions of free expression.

>>8771061

That link does not say that refusing to Say The Pronouns will not result in criminal prosecution.

> Nothing in the section compels the use or avoidance of particular words in public as long as they are not used in their most extreme manifestation with the intention of promoting the level of abhorrence, delegitimization and rejection that produces feelings of hatred against identifiable groups.

That means if I refuse to call a tranny or a xer by their made up pronouns, they could claim I'm "promoting hatred" and have me prosecuted.

That is totalitarian.

>>8771103
They could claim that, but it doesn't mean the courts would actually accept it. The thing about laws is that you can generally claim a great deal of seemingly totalitarian things, but the courts will often just say "no, that's not sufficient to meet the law"

>>8771084
If you wanted to discuss the OHRC, you should have said them instead of the CBA

Anyways, I see that this has been in place in Ontario since 2012, about 5 years ago now. Has there been a case brought where such pronoun enforcement has actually been enacted? I imagine 5 years is more than enough time to at least have seen some relevant cases and outcomes.

Further, from the Commission, this is stated- "Refusing to refer to a trans person by their chosen name and a personal pronoun that matches their gender identity, or purposely misgendering, will likely be discrimination when it takes place in a social area covered by the Code, including employment, housing and services like education. "

I'd like to point specifically at "when it takes place in a social area covered by the Code, including employment, housing and services like education. ", signifying that it isn't something to be used in standard circumstances.

>>8771056
>"HSTSs are so incredibly feminine that it's just easier if they transition"
Do they transition because of their traits or because it's easier?

>>8769943
Sure. But as soon as sex transforms into any kind of prescriptive anything, you're getting to spookville

And muh two genders is top spook

>>8771137
I'm the anon who brought up the CBA, not the same person as >>8771084, I hadn't followed the story closely and had forgotten the OHRC thing and the explainer I googled only mentioned the CBA.

>>8771137
PS >>8771633
The problem with that clause is that "employment" in particular sounds like it could be interpreted extremely broadly and infringe on the free speech of anyone who has a co-worker who uses nonstandard pronouns.

Assigning liability to employers just gives them incentives to fire anyone who refuses to say the mandated things, that shouldn't be regarded as any different from punishing them directly.

>>8771291
I object to the notion that if you have a causal chain A -> B -> C, you can't say that A causes C.

>>8771291
Also, "HSTSs are so incredibly feminine that it's just easier if they transition" should not be understood as an actual proposal, it should be understood as an example of a non-MIGI theory.

>>8771680
Then ignore that post and I'll reply to your actual guess:

>>8771056
>That the inference is wrong causes a lot of problems in various ways (social friction, prejudice, anger from others for violating norms, etc.), some of which lead to feelings of dysphoria and others which just lead to "rational" incentives to transition.
Do HSTSes transition or their traits or because of this inference and the rational incentives to transition?

>>8771731
transition because of their*

>>8771731
Both. I still object to the notion that if you have a causal chain A -> B -> C, you can't say that A causes C.

>>8771744
A doesn't cause B. Feminine traits don't cause their inference or the rational incentives to transition. The inference's cause is a happenstance of subconscious thoughts and the rational incentive's cause is social friction/

>>8771783

There is no reason for that claim. The simplest explanation with fewest moving parts or unexplained things (like "subconscious thoughts") is just that femininity and wanting to date straight men causes transition.

>>8771783
I'm not interested in playing obnoxious word games. Yes, they probably *actually* transition because of an interplay between the femininity and society's reaction, but they also *actually* transition because of an interplay between the femininity and their ability to pass, or an interplay between the femininity and the existence of HRT, or an interplay between the femininity and not getting splatted by a random meteor. Everything happens for complicated reasons. I emphasize the femininity because it's the part that I'm most confident about, that generalizes the best, and which is most relevant for various practical purposes.

Because they want to win the oppression olympics without actually having to deal with being oppressed or doing anything. By saying there trans even without transitioning, they get oppression cred for being trans AND for being rejected by real trans people.

>>8771052
>The reasoning behind it is
Source on that being the reasoning?

>if something is a hate crime, the person is more likely to commit the crime again
[citation needed]

>>8771798
>femininity and wanting to date straight men causes transition.
That would only explain a conscious decision to become a woman, not dysphoria and a self-perception as a girl.

>>8771830
It's not "obnoxious word games" to care about the distinction between transitioning for innate reasons or not.

>but they also *actually* transition because of an interplay between the femininity and their ability to pass
Being feminine and able to pass isn't a reason to transition.

>or an interplay between the femininity and the existence of HRT, or an interplay between the femininity and not getting splatted by a random meteor.
HRT existing and being alive only make it possible to transition. They aren't reasons to.

If HRT didn't exist, the reason to transition, the dysphoria and the belief they should be the other sex all still would.

The same is not true of society's reaction to their femininity.

>that generalizes the best, and which is most relevant for various practical purposes.
What do you mean?

>>8771052
>"Denial of good, service, facility or accommodation"
>"Denial of commercial premises or residential accommodation"
>"Employment"

None of those should be "protected" for trans folks or anybody else.

>>8775018
as if youd want anything protected

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>>8767603
OP here So we need to get the medical community to have a new word for actual transsexualism then it's that simple. I brought this issue up with my doctor and he agreed but since there is no established word he just put me under intersex. Which in all honesty seems to be more and more valid especially considering all this post modernist bullshit that people take literally and don;t actually understand how to treat those ideas.

>>8778161
He officially listed you as intersex? What does that mean for you?

>>8778316
being able to separate myself from all the bs and have a better chance at having a good life i guess

>>8763713
Because the world is a terrible place. I'm sure eventually a term that hasn't been hijacked will be created and acknowledged by the medical community, but it sure sucks waiting in the meantime.

>>8778353
Did he put it in official papers or is it more an identity?

>>8778409
if you look up my medical records that's what it will say.